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Madara's Manipulation of Kurama
In chapter 568, page 7, Madara is shown using his three tomoe Sharingan to control Kurama, not a Mangekyo Sharingan. While it has been stated by Itachi (and Sasuke) that the Mangekyo Sharingan possesses the ability to control the Kyubi, neither Madara nor Tobi - the only two people in history to do so - have used a Mangekyo to manipulate the Nine-tailed Fox, so I think the information for Madara should be displayed as experienced and visually, not verbally.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 06:59, March 16, 2012 (UTC)
That wouldn't really make any sense. Every other single MS technique requires the dojutsu to be active. If that were true, the masked man wouldn't be able to control Kurama nor any of the other tailed beasts since he has never been shown possessing anything above a standard Sharingan.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 22:35, March 16, 2012 (UTC)
- Itachi and Madara have used Susanoo without their respective Mangekyō Sharingans being activated. In fact Sasuke and Itchi have both used partial forms of Susanoo with only their Sharingans activated in recent chapters.--Cerez365™ 22:40, March 16, 2012 (UTC)
If you're referring to this page: http://www.mangabit.com/manga/naruto/chapter/576/page/5, Sasuke clearly has his MS activated, as does Itachi in the next page. I don't know where you're getting this information from. Madara only used his basic Sharingan to control Kurama, as did Tobi, the latter which has never been shown displaying an advanced form of the dojutsu. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 00:19, March 17, 2012 (UTC)
- Oh dear I totally skipped that page. I was also referring to the final parts of Itachi's fight with Sasuke, Madara's current use of the Rinnegan and Susanoo and here. You should learn not to conveniently leave out parts of a post just to simply prove a point.--Cerez365™ 11:21, March 17, 2012 (UTC)
And you should learn that the Mangekyo can be activated and deactivated almost instantly, just like when the two siblings met and briefly used Susano'o's fists. When we see Itachi's Sharingan on that page, Susano'o is not activated at all; he just used it to smash through the wall then deactivated it immediately after. As for Madara, the Rinnegan is a stage above the EMS and can still use all of his MS techniques while active; I thought this was common knowledge. However, the three tomoe Sharingan is a stage below the MS and cannot use any of its abilities without be active.
Speculate all you want, but Madara is blatantly using a standard Sharingan and nothing more. In addition, Kurama's eyes reflect the same exact design; there is no MS involved whatsoever.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 22:08, March 17, 2012 (UTC)
Did you even read the conversation? It's clearly shown that both Madara and Tobi are only using a standard three tomoe Sharingan, despite whatever Itachi/Sasuke said. I don't know about you, but I find actions speak louder than words. Even Kurama's eyes reflect the three tomoe design, not an MS.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 01:05, March 19, 2012 (UTC)
I think it's already stated in both Tobi and Madara articles that they have used just Sharingan. Yet I think it was either during Sasuke vs Itachi or Databook that mentions MS is required. --Elveonora (talk) 16:54, March 19, 2012 (UTC)
The Mangekyō Sharingan has the ability to control the Nine-Tailed Demon Fox, although Madara Uchiha is the only ones to accomplish this milestone, Tobi having done the same but with only a regular Sharingan.
This statement is set up like Tobi used a different method to control Kurama than Madara, but they both did the exact same thing and used the exact same dojutsu. Maybe the MS is required if they don't possess extraordinary chakra like the two aforementioned shinobi, but it appears that they are exceptions to this rule, and I fail to see how possessing an MS and it not being active would allow someone to use any of its abilities or traits. Honestly, Itachi and Sasuke don't seem to be as knowledgeable about the dojutsu's secrets as Madara and Tobi, especially if you consider that neither has awakened the EMS (until recently) nor the Rinnegan and could not fully decipher the tablet left by the Sage without the latter eyes.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 20:26, March 19, 2012 (UTC)
That's like asking how could Sasuke read the Sage's tablet with his Sharingan deactivated ... It's clearly stated that MS is required to do so, there's no need for it to be active. Kinda like Itachi's relugar genjutsu is stronger than Sasuke's Tsukuyomi. You not seeing a gun in my hand does not mean it's not hidden in my pocket. It's nowhere stated they are using Tsukuyomi to control the Tailed Beasts/Kurama. Just that power of Mangekyou Sharingan needs to be awakened. But I agree, the way it's worder in the article is wrong. --Elveonora (talk) 20:46, March 19, 2012 (UTC)
Tobi defies this tenet nonetheless as he has never been seen using an MS, and if he did have the ability to utilize one, he would've awakened it by now, but seeing as he was so set on obtaining the Rinnegan, I think it's reasonable to conclude that he is unable to do so.
Now, one could say he's using Hashirama's DNA to augment his visual prowess, but Hashirama manipulated the tailed beasts via Hokage-Style Sixty-Year-Old Technique — Kakuan Entering Society with Bliss-Bringing Hands and didn't use any eye power whatsoever, and there hasn't been any sign of his cells even being able to enhance the eyes themselves.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 21:59, March 19, 2012 (UTC)
If Tobi is who I think he is, he had a MS before even though he now uses a regular Sharingan. Also the popular theory is that Madara awakened Rinnegan after getting Hashirama's DNA so it can affect the eyes. One way or the other, this is getting off-topic. Just edit what you want and if others find it as wrong, it will be removed. --Elveonora (talk) 22:37, March 19, 2012 (UTC)
I think that Tobi, assuming he doesn't have the MS, can control Kurama because he has Hashirama's DNA (Wood Element), so his Sharingan is somewhat enchanced. As for Madara, I believe that since he has the MS, he can control Kurama with his Sharingan.Patsoumas1995 (talk) 12:27, April 7, 2012 (UTC)
- It's only ever been said to be able to control Kurama. We don't know about the others. I doubt it for some reason though because it seems that the Uchiha have some sort of tie to the Nine-Tails--Cerez365™(talk) 16:47, April 30, 2012 (UTC)
- Exactly what he said. Madara (Tobi) can't keep the beast under his control forever.--Cerez365™(talk) 18:37, April 30, 2012 (UTC)
When? During that flashback of Kurama's with people always telling it it couldn't be free? Regardless, we've seen Sharingan controlling the Five-Tails, but we don't know if that's the same sort of control. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:46, April 30, 2012 (UTC)
- Yes but the Sharingan aren't the only "blessed eyes" are they? If they are able to control other tailed beast, they've made a piss poor time of handing the Eight-Tails.--Cerez365™(talk) 02:45, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
I don't remember Byakugan or Rinnegan controlling the Tailed Beasts (sure no proof that they can't as Rinnegan is an evolution from Sharingan so it should) but: ""Nine-Tails, you are merely a momentary life, a temporary existence of coalesced energy… energy that once was a single, ultimate form! An unstable force, lacking in intelligence or sapience, you require a guide to show you purpose. That guide is the Uchiha! The tailed beasts are but slaves to those with blessed eyes. Obey!"" He is talking about Uchiha, thus Sharingan--Elveonora (talk) 13:25, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
- Outer Path? Not too sure about anything Byakugan related since Kishimoto regrettably pays very little attention to it, but still "blessed eyes" is a general term where he could've easily said Sharingan. He only made specifications to Kurama being a slave to the Sharingan not all of them. Still it's possible, however unlikely, but an unknown quantity at this point in time.
Also, the Rinnegan being an evolutionary form of the Sharingan, isn't true. The Sharingan is the descended/devolutioned(o.O?) from the Rinnegan but the Rinnegan isn't an advanced Sharingan.--Cerez365™(talk) 13:50, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
No. He said all tailed beasts are slaves to those with blessed eyes. And Rinnegan is an evolution from Sharingan (and don't start with stupid theories with Senju DNA because Kabuto said natural) because what lays beyond of Sharingan is Rinnegan. If Sharingan is a lesser version of Rinnegan (devolution) then it makes automatically Rinnegan as the higher level (evolution) dunno what's not clear.--Elveonora (talk) 16:01, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
- You're missing something Elveonora. The Sharingan is an evolution of the Sharingan, not the other way around. This is because it is descended from the Rinnegan, thus it is an evolution, regardless if it is weaker than its ancestor(s). The Sharingan simply has the potential to regress back to the Rinnegan and it is somewhat implied to be rather unnatural, seeing as Madara didn't awaken it until he had obtained Hashirama's DNA. Anyway, this is all conjecture. While we only saw Madara and Tobi with the standard Sharingan, it is quite possible that they simply activated their Mangekyo after what we saw. This is partially reinforced by the fact the the Naka Shrine Tablet itself (which was likely added to by Madara) says that the only way to control Kurama visually is with the MS, not the standard version. Also, Tobi didn't control the 5-Tails with just his Sharingan, He was also using Chakraa Disruption Rods and the Ouer Path's Chakra Chains. This seems to be teetering on the edge of speculation. Skitts (talk) 16:27, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
- So only the Sharingan are blessed eyes? Even though the Rinnegan is more revered than it and there are two other eyes that fall into the category of "Three Great Dōjutsu"? I'm also not going to start a speculation discussion with you, I was merely correcting your statement. In the same way that the Sharingan cannot naturally progress to the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan is the same way that it cannot progress to the Rinnegan on its own. Not because the Sharingan is a descendant of the Rinnegan means that the Rinnegan is an evolutionary form of the Sharingan simply because the progression of the eye does not naturally progress to the Rinnegan through orthodox means. You'd also note that Kabuto never said anything about natural progression— he said "what lies beyond the Sharingan is the Rinnegan" which is obvious because it's a descendant of it. Madara tugged opened his shirt and looked down into his shirt so unless Hashirama's faux face breathes or else itches, I don't know how he'd know it was there (Kabuto's exact modifications to Edo-Madara are also still unknown) Along with the ability he showed to use Hashirama's techniques with accuracy means it's not the first time he's used them. I don't know why you insist of trying to remove Senju DNA attributing to an Uchiha awakening the Rinnegan but its ludicrous to do that. What was Madara's aim in going to the Valley at the End and getting his ass handed to him just to get a bit of DNA if he didn't need it?--Cerez365™(talk) 16:24, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
@Skitts, Sharingan is an evolution of Sharingan ... (typo?) I guess you meant Rinnegan and nope. Rinnegan is evolution of Sharingan, not the other way around ... that would be like saying Madara downgraded and it's been clearly stated "what lays beyond" "evolution" being weaker that from what it has descended is devolution/degradation/degeneration. You are using speculation and wrong "facts" instead of what manga provides. It's been said to be NATURAL EVOLUTION, that's why I said above do not bother with Senju cells stuff. The Elder son has inherited the Sage's eyes, younger body. Uchiha have potential to unlock Rinnegan by their own, just like they can use Izanagi without Senju cells. Stating Sharingan + Hashi boob = Rinnegan is pure speculation and contradicts hints from manga. About your MS controlling Kurama part, you got the thing right ... if you don't see something, it does not mean it's not there. As you said, he could have activated it later or the requirement is to unlock MS and it's not needed for it to be activated to control Kurama/Tailed Beasts.
@Cerez, Byakugan has not shown or was in any way hinted of being able to control Tailed Beasts ... each time the history of Sage is spoken, there's no mention of Hyuga nor Byakugan thus it's unlikely that they are connected. About EMS < Rinnegan, Kabuto clearly said NATURAL. Taking Senju cells is not natural but forced, and more like mutation than evolution. You should remember that Senju DNA is required for "the creation of all things" and that Wood Release also has power to control Tailed Beasts. He can't be another "s6op" with just half of his power. --Elveonora (talk) 21:45, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
@Elveonora You appear to be under the misconception that the volution of something is automatically better than it's ancestor, which isn't the case. The Rinnegan being what "lies beyond" the Sharingan just means it's more powerful. I have used no incorrect facts, you have simply not understood things properly. :X Skitts (talk) 22:10, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
Could you cite the chapter and page where Kabuto says "natural"? Because it's either you're reading a translation or else another version of the manga because I was sure to go back and read those chapters again. I see Madara telling Kabuto he didn't create this power but there is no mention of the word natural... at all. The Rinnegan also comes from the Senju-Uchiha's joint bloodline just like Banbutsu Sōzō, but apparently the Sharingan is able to become the Rinnegan without it? If that's so then I'd assume we'll see Sasuke with the Rinnegan pretty soon which I doubt highly.--Cerez365™(talk) 22:19, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
@Skitts, not really. Sharingan being able to evolve into Rinnegan is strict. That's "what lies beyond" not that it's stronger ... the thing it's stronger is common sense since it's an evolution not a degradation.
@Cerez, where was it stated that Rinnegan comes from both powers of Uchiha and Senju ? So6p was BOTH as the source of the blood/powers. The elder son inherited his eyes, younger his body. If Uchiha with Senju DNA is capable of getting Rinnegan, that would mean a Senju with Sharingan also gets Rinnegan. The theory is false as Tobi has both Sharingan and Senju cells and has not awakened Rinnegan, but took it from Nagato--Elveonora (talk) 22:38, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
- If all of that is true, why did the elder son not receive the Sage's Rinnegan eyes then instead of a (degenerated) form of it? Why did the eyes the proceed to change at all going down his lineage. Each son inherited half the Sage's power; in order to become whole, both lines need to join. As for Tobi not having the Rinnegan, the man stated that the eyes were his etc. etc. etc. maybe there's merit behind that after all but that is just speculation and possible fodder. Then again we don't even know what Tobi is. As for the specifications of everything I don't know, because ¾ of this is shrouded in mystery and this discussion has become long and pointless.--Cerez365™(talk) 22:53, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
- This is turning into a lovely back and forth. I will throw this in, just to stir things up.
- It is common trope in fantasy that things in the past are stronger than things in the present. Just because something "devolves" doesn't mean it got weaker.
- And thus the plot thickens...--TheUltimate3 (talk) 22:50, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
@Cerez, it's possible but that would mean that the Uchiha can't be "whole" without the powers of Senju. Tobi stated the eyes were "his" "Uchiha Madara's" @Ultimate, that's true. Devolution is a step backwards unless I'm wrong, everything points to Rinnegan being stronger. But again, it's not much of a point of stronger/weaker but former and latter--Elveonora (talk) 23:05, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
- @elveonora "What lies beyond", as in what is stronger. I'm trying to explain that by definition, saying that the Rinnegan is the evolution of the Sharingan is plain incorrect no matter how you put it. Strength is irrelevant here because it has to do with what came first, which was the Rinnegan and its ancestor, and what came after, which was the Sharingan. Anyway, the Rinnegan being stronger is known due to the 3rd Data book referring to it as the most powerful of the 3 great dojutsu, which is what Kabuto is referring to when he says that the Rinnegan is what lies beyond the Sharingan. Also, it was never said to be a natural progression from what I remember and the fact the to obtain just the EMS an unnatural method must be used is further evidence. Anyway, we're straying pretty far from what this is supposed to be about so I suggest we end it here or wrap it up, post-haste. Skitts (talk) 23:17, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
My very last post on the topic/off-topic. OP, we don't know ... For the Rinnegan issue, First was So6p/Rinnegan > Uchiha/Sharingan ... if Sharingan can go backwards and change into Rinnegan, it's a devolution of it's original form as Sharingan < Mangekyou < Eternal < Rinnegan is the progress.--Elveonora (talk) 23:34, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
- -sigh- It doesn't have to be stronger/better than it's predecessor to be an evolution. I don't know how many times I have to say that. =/ Back on topic, I think we should remove any mention of anyone controlling Kurama with just a Sharingan for now. Sasuke, Itachi and the Naka Shrine Tablet state that as an MS power and seeing as with both Tobi and Madara, we never see their Sharingan in that context after controlling Kurama, we can't say for sure. However, during his fight with Hashirama (or rather from flashbacks of it), we see Madara's EMS active, though of course that is also explainable for power reasons.Skitts (talk) 23:47, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
- Again, he didn't. He was using 3 methods to suppress and control the Tailed Beasts (possibly 4):
- Sharingan (likely Genjutsu, based off of what Sasuke did to Manda)
- Chakra Disruption Rod
- Chakra Chains (Outer Path)
- That doesn't say or shown anything about the Sharingan having the power to control a Tailed Beast, nor does that statement specify the Sharingan, but Dojutsu in general. Skitts (talk) 00:32, May 2, 2012 (UTC)
- Note; Madara Uchiha was an arrogant ass who, in that discussion with the Nine-Tails, called it little more than condensed energy that was too stupid to use its own power. While Madara didn't refer to any dojutsu by name, he clearly ment the Sharingan of the Uchiha clan.
- Now to recap;
- Sharingan and Byakugan are descendents of the Rinnegan.
- Sharingan can evolve (or devolve in this case) into the stronger Rinnegan if Senju and Uchiha blood is united, as shown by Madara Uchiha.
- The Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan has the power to enslave the Nine-Tails, which was written in that shrine. Madara had the Mangekyo Sharingan by the time he enslaved the Nine-Tails, thus the only one that breaks this is Tobi, though we don't know if he doesn't have the Mangekyo or not.
- Am I missing anything?--TheUltimate3 (talk) 00:53, May 3, 2012 (UTC)
He said Uchiha are the guide to all Tailed Beasts due to "blessed eyes" And:
- Byakugan was never stated or even hinted to descend from Rinnegan/Sage (except Kakashi saying such LONG ago as a rumor, but he does not know better and each time the history of So6p is spoken, there's no mention of Hyuga or Byakugan and it's not even capable of Tailed Beast control as we know.
- Senju DNA was not confirmed as a requirement to get Rinnegan, it's just a reasonable assumption of many.
- Both had just the Sharingan activated by the time, it's possible both Madara and Tobi have used MS/EMS off-screen.
I'm all for a mention that the Sharingan can likely control all the Tailed Beasts and that Tobi also possibly possess MS as it's required for the control of Kurama and such into the trivia (stating it's possible that it was used off-screen)--Elveonora (talk) 02:26, May 3, 2012 (UTC)
Now that it's been shown that Tobi does indeed have the Mangekyo Sharingan, I think it best we tentatively remove mention of controlling Kurama with the 3-Tomoe Sharingan, as there's far no real evidence for that considering what the Naka Shrine tablet apparently says and that the 2 Uchiha to do so both possess the necessary, specified ability to control it. And yes, I'm back. :-) Skitts (talk) 14:23, August 22, 2012 (UTC)
- Please stop with the annoying l33t speak. It's impossible to read what you are posting. --Speysider (Talk Page) 16:05, March 25, 2012 (UTC)
- I think he means using texting language and writing "u" instead of "you". As for there being no section for the Eteral Mangekyō Sharingan, that's because of the method in which it is obtained. It's not an "evolution" of the eye but the by-product of integrating two Mangekyō Sharingan.--Cerez365™ 16:19, March 25, 2012 (UTC)
I beg to differ :p It was said that the EMS does give new abilities, however still unseen.
I do think we should create a new page for the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan. It clearly is different from the Mangekyo Sharingan, even if we aren't familiar with the big changes now. Derigar (talk) 16:21, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
Not quite. If what you're referring to "it was said that the EMS does give new abilities" is the thing Itachi said to Sasuke when they fought before Itachi died, the phrase he said was something along the lines of "gave birth to a new dōjutsu". That could mean either new techniques or just the EMS itself. We've seen the translation of that already. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:28, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
Seeing through surfaces
Isn't it worthy a mention that Sharingan can see chakra through surfaces (Sasuke seeing the mini-bombs in his body, Tobi seeing the nano-sized bugs and both Itachi and Sasuke seeing Kabuto's snakes behind the trees.) Since every living thing gives off chakra, isn't it similar to Byakugan ? --Elveonora (talk) 16:50, March 25, 2012 (UTC)
- I agree (and i've said this before) it doesn't make sense to encroach on what is Byakugan abilities. They can see chakra in any medium "seeing though" whatever is containing it is just a means to the actual ability. Adding that will make it seem as if they can activate their Sharingan and see through objects.--Cerez365™ 16:57, March 25, 2012 (UTC)
But every living thing at least Shinobi gives out chakra traces. Byakugan has almost 360* X-ray vision and can zoom through object at distance. Sharingan can see chakra through surfaces, I think it's worthy a mention since there's more than one such instance. --Elveonora (talk) 17:09, March 25, 2012 (UTC)
"For example, they can copy hand movements with one tomoe, predict a person's movement and copy techniques with two and fully use the Sharingan's abilities when it is fully matured." Where did this came from? Patsoumas1995 (talk) 16:07, April 12, 2012 (UTC)
- from observation. though mayhaps it shouldn't sound so matter-of-fact.--Cerez365™(talk) 19:39, April 12, 2012 (UTC)
I have a doubt. Can the Sharingan genjutsu affect only those are in eye contact with the user? So all other genjutsu cast by the user without making eye contact is without the Sharingan?126.96.36.199 (talk) 12:59, May 11, 2012 (UTC)
What? So if a sharingan user's Sharingan can reflect off something and the reflection can make contact with the target, then they can still be brought under a genjutsu? Then, Sharingan users must have made use of mirrors and other reflecting surfaces extensively. I could be wrong, you know.188.8.131.52 (talk) 14:18, May 11, 2012 (UTC)
- But if the eye is reflected off something, that's still eye contact.--Cerez365™(talk) 15:17, May 11, 2012 (UTC)
Sasuke's Sharingan Jutsu against Sai
When Sasuke and Sai met for the first time, Sasuke used an unnamed Genjutsu against Sai, right? In the Naruto TCG, this Jutsu was named 威圧写輪眼 Iatsu Sharingan, which means Coercion Copy Wheel Eye (or literally Authority Pressure Copy Wheel Eye). The 威 can be found in Kamui, too. Maybe you want to create an article for that? Seelentau 愛議 15:08, May 24, 2012 (UTC)
Would not be the first time for a videogame to name an unnamed technique ... it was just some random generic genjutsu, but if we have name for that then why not --Elveonora (talk) 15:20, May 24, 2012 (UTC)
- *trading card game ;) Seelentau 愛議 15:24, May 24, 2012 (UTC)
- Kekkei genkai infoboxes don't have that option.--Cerez365™(talk) 11:36, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
- And how is that problem avoided, then? They have to be written down somewhere, right? Seelentau 愛議 12:04, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
- It's written in the infoboxes for individual techniques, or are you meaning for the kekkei genkai itself? TricksterKing (talk) 12:28, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
- And how is that problem avoided, then? They have to be written down somewhere, right? Seelentau 愛議 12:04, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
With the reveal of volume 61's cover, is it safe to add the fact that Sharingan that have been "sealed" and gone blind are white, or should it be noted only in relation to Izanami and Izanagi? Itachi's eyes towards the end of his battle with Sasuke seem to have been in a similar state after overusing the Mangekyō, judging by the way they were depicted in the manga (drawn with no Mangekyō Sharingan designs, but not shaded in like Itachi's normal eyes are).--BeyondRed (talk) 21:34, July 14, 2012 (UTC)
- Blindness is generally indicated that way. You could still drop a reference in the article(s) to the chapter if you feel it necessary.--Cerez365™(talk) 10:01, July 15, 2012 (UTC)
Space-Time Migration is not a sharingan jutsu but a mangekyo sharingan jutsu, is it listed as a sharingan jutsu temporarily? and btw we never saw his eye when using the technique. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 03:30, August 13, 2012 (UTC)