Talk:Shadow Clone Technique

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Tsunade

Doesn't Tsunade use this technique as well (only in the anime)? Look at this video at 0:07 TheMissUzumaki (talk)

I don't know if the omake is counted as an anime-only or it's just like the openings or endings. http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a553/anaspet06/Shakhmootssign_zps2a261e68.png^(Contact) 20:46, October 16, 2013 (UTC)

And plus even if they are we don't know their necessarily shadow clones, they could be llightning for all we know since she is a presumed lightning type --Youngjusticeplayer007 (talk) 20:49, October 16, 2013 (UTC)

Don't recall us ever considering omake canon. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:09, October 16, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, If we did add it, it would have to be noted that it was only in an omake, and it is unknown what kind of clone this is. It is only known that is not a standard bunshin as she was able to physically touch objects. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 01:56, October 17, 2013 (UTC)

Splitting the Soul?

Consider this: Shiki Fujin "performs the sealing by dragging the target's soul into the user whose stomach is branded with the seal's mark. However, the sealing is double-edged as the user's soul is devoured by the Shinigami along with the target's, both souls trapped for all eternity within the fiend's stomach." Now, Hiruzen was able to seal Shodaime and Nidaime using Kagebunshin, with himself attempting to seal Orochimaru, each by letting the Shinigami's arm rip out the souls from both the Shadow Clone and the target he was holding on to. In Manga Ch.124 p.6 the Shinigami can clearly be seen holding two pairs of souls, each consisting of one of the hokages and hiruzen's clones souls mingling together.

Doesn't this imply that when creating Kagebunshin, the very soul is split up among the clones together with chakra? (This could also explain why experience/memory gained by a clone returns to the original, as his soul reunites). I'm not sure if this is appropriate mentioning in Trivia, just a logical thought.--Kiyuna (talk) 10:52, June 6, 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. Also, since the clones transmit epxerience, they should transmit the memory of the pain they felt, thus hurting the user every time his clones vanish from an attack or so. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 10:57, June 6, 2014 (UTC)

Shadow Clone Jutsu, better than Shadow Shuriken Jutsu in rank?

I was wondering something, they say that its harder to clone a weapon than a human being. (or something like that) That's why the "Shadow Shuriken Jutsu" Is A-rank and "Shadow Clone Jutsu" is B-rank, right? But many times, when Naruto clones himself, you see his shadow clones draw a weapon, like a kunai. I don't think that makes sense. Throw some money in your pocket and POOF double it :P can someone please explain or something. Because how it is now, the "Shadow Clone Jutsu" should be higher in rank than the shuriken one.

ZingoStar (talk) 07:11, July 10, 2014 (UTC)

Tiger Seal in the Manga

In Chapter 77, Naruto created Shadow Clones with the Tiger Seal. In the trivia section there is only about the Anime, don't we need to add this as well.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 21:09, August 4, 2014 (UTC)

Right. It should be mentioned in the infobox by the way--Elveonora (talk) 21:14, August 4, 2014 (UTC)

Users

There seems to be rather a lot of people listed here as users, who never used this technique and just happened to use Clone Technique or Body Replacement Technique instead. I don't even recall Jiraiya making use of a technique like this either, yet he seems to be listed. Can someone confirm where people used this technique? People like Deidara were not shown using this in the anime/manga, unless it's Novel or Movie. --Sajuuk _[Mod] 10:24, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Well, I'm not too sure how parent techniques were determined in the first place, but I'll start here. Orochimaru & Deidara are users of this technique on the basis that Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique & Suicide Bombing Clone respectively for each of these characters are both derived from Shadow Clone Technique. In other words, you can't use the derived techs without knowing the parent tech technique in some cases. It isn't uniform. As for Jiraiya, I don't recall him ever using it in the manga, but he did in the anime....episode #153. It should probably have the anime only tag, but I'm not sure.--Mina ^{talk | contribs} 10:49, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Where was it stated that "Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique" means you need to have known Shadow Clone Technique? If there's a chapter/episode/db ref that confirms this, would be good to know. o.O

I'll need to check that episode, but pretty sure he never used this technique. But I'll check for sake of ensuring things. --Sajuuk _[Mod] 10:53, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

I have no idea where that was stated. Maybe it's that, how could you create shadow clones of shiruken without knowing how to create shadow clones? It's also possible that previous databooks confirmed this. I really don't know, all I do know is that Shadow Clone Technique was listed as the parent tech, and that's how we've been handling it.--Mina ^{talk | contribs} 10:59, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Basic logic, if you don't know the basic move, how can you use the advanced version of the basic move? O.o

Substitutions have logs (or something else >.>), basic clones don't make poofs.--Omojuze (talk) 11:00, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

That's all but basic logic. First of all, the Shadow Clone Technique is not the basic technique, the Clone Technique is. Second, if you know how to drive a bike, do you automatically know how to drive a car? No. Also, do you need to know how to drive a bike when you want to learn how to drive a car? No. In the same way, you don't need to know how to produce human shadow clones if you want to produce shuriken shadow clones. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 11:10, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

So Tau, you don't think that to perform shuriken shadow clones, you'd need to know how to apply the Shadow Clone Technique? That's essentially all I'm getting at. I didn't even come up with this thing, it's something that's been done around here for a long time, long before I was a member. Also, the bike-car example is a very poor one, because bikes and cars don't operate the same way. Not even close.--Mina ^{talk | contribs} 11:13, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

They don't, I know. But what they have in common is the "driving". I could do the same metaphor with a bike and a unicycle. Or a car and a truck. My point is that you don't need to know one to know a similar one. Both are clones, but one is with humans, the other with shuriken. Why would you even need to know the human version? Shuriken aren't humans after all. And who decided that it's not the other way around? Why don't you need to master the shuriken version first if you want to master the human version? • Seelentau 愛 ^議 11:17, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Lol yes I see your point. You're essentially saying that they're different techniques and that knowing the Shadow Clone Technique isn't necessarily a requirement for knowing the Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique, or vise versa. That, however, isn't the logic this wiki's gone by in recent months and that's all I'm saying. I can see it the other way though, in that the shuriken shadow clones is a mere "application" of shadow clones. But you're right in that it isn't set in stone.--Mina ^{talk | contribs} 11:23, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Of course it's an application of shadow cloning. But so is the human version. What makes the human version the "basic version" and the shuriken version a derived version? Why not the other way around, if any? I say that they're both based on the shadow cloning principle, but equally derived versions, not superior and inferior and surely not based on another. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 11:27, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Tobirama most likely developed the Shadow Clone after analysing the basic clone. The principle is the same, except that cloning ninja tools is stated to be different to cloning yourself. At least, according to the article. :P

Fact is, the series has showcased that people can "analyse" the principles of a technique, then develop their own techniques based on the "idea". That doesn't mean they must be able to use the technique they've analysed, as it's been stated a lot of times that the Shadow Clone uses lots of chakra.

I can't imagine everyone being able to just make physical clones of themselves on a constant basis. --Sajuuk _[Mod] 11:34, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Exactly. Maybe we should reconsider which techniques serve as a basis to others and which doesn't... • Seelentau 愛 ^議 11:56, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

In my opinion, people should only be added as a user if they're actually seen "using" the technique. Derivatives don't count as "using" the technique, as it's something else entirely. Forum thread might be needed for this... (and I'm glad we're agreeing on something :D) --Sajuuk _[Mod] 11:58, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, well for example. Tailed Beast Ball is considered the parent technique for Rasengan, but we obviously ain't listing Jiraiya, etc...as users lol. Shadow of the Dancing Leaf & Lion Combo are listed as parent techs for Naruto's Naruto Uzumaki Combo, but we're not gonna list Naruto for the latter two. I think we should also concretely define what a parent technique is.--Mina ^{talk | contribs} 12:03, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

But, Mina-san, no they aren't... And I do see what Seele is saying, and I have to say, I sorta agree. It should be moved to variations/related jutsu. It was listed as a derived technique right from the start, though.--Omojuze (talk) 12:05, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Wow, what a dumbass I was. They're actually "related techs" lol. My bad. Point still stands on my latest example though. Again, we just need to redefine what a parent technique is, and that'll clear everything up.--Mina ^{talk | contribs} 12:08, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

It's another fanon term that causes confusion. x) There obviously are parent techniques in the manga, but once again, we're lacking a definition. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 12:10, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Personally, we should just go back to how it used to be: we only list users of techniques if they're physically seen activating said technique. Being a user of a derivative/variant does not equate to the user using the parent. It would solve the problem easily. At least, from my perspective on the matter. --Sajuuk _[Mod] 12:13, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

That would make things a lot less complicated, yes.--Mina ^{talk | contribs} 12:23, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Seeing as it hasn't been pointed out yet, Orochimaru actually did use the Shadow Clone Technique against Anko in the Forest of Death, at least in the manga. In the anime, he used this instead. It was said to be a Body Replacement, but we currently consider it to be an Earth Release variant of Shadow Clone for whatever reason. All of the other manga users listed are also correct except for Jiraiya, who I'm fairly certain never used this.--BeyondRed (talk) 16:24, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

That's not a Shadow Clone. That is nothing more than an Earth-Style substitution. Hiruzen used EXACTLY the same technique earlier in said fight, which was just a basic substitution.

And you should probably read the rest of the discussion, since some of the listed users clearly didn't actually use the technique, but some sort of variant. --Sajuuk _[Mod] 16:28, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

And Jiraiya absolutely has used this technique...again, Naruto Shippuden Episode #153.--Mina ^{talk | contribs} 16:31, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Jiraiya is listed as a manga user currently. If he did indeed use it in the anime, he should have the anime only tag. As for the Earth technique from Part 1, I agree that it was just a substitution, not an Earth Release Shadow Clone as we currently classify it (though that apparently did appear in Shippuden). Apologies if I was unclear about that. I was simply saying that all of the manga users besides Jiraiya are correct and can be verified (I can't speak for the anime-only users). In Deidara's case, his clone was in fact a regular Shadow Clone up until the point where it consumed the clay, thus becoming a Suicide Bombing Clone. --BeyondRed (talk) 17:09, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

If he used it in the manga, a source for where it was seen, so that someone can check it, would be useful.

The problem is some of the listed users didn't use a Shadow Clone. And in Deidara's example, how can you create a Shadow Clone without hand signs? It was him, up to a point where he substituted or used Body Flicker. o.O

I know for a fact Hayate did NOT use this in the anime, no idea about manga, but his "Crescent Moon Dance" was an illusion, not shadow clones. Unsure about Itachi, as the anime tends to take liberties with dubbing and incorrectly refers to the basic "Clone Technique" as though it's the Shadow Clone (see end of Naruto v Neji in Chunin Exams for an example).

According to manga facts, the Shadow Clone is a kinjutsu. A lot of the uses of "clones" would have resulted in the caster's death if they were real clones. Even Seelentau doesn't agree with the number of users (I did see Minato make a clone, but it's anime only, not seen in manga: if it's in manga, chapter ref would be useful). --Sajuuk _[Mod] 17:15, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Crescent Moon Dance isn't an illusion, it requires Shadow Clones. Itachi used the Shadow Clone against Kakashi after Orochimaru's Invasion (see Clone Great Explosion). Minato created a Shadow Clone right before Obito became the Ten-Tails' jinchūriki. Shadow Clone isn't a kinjutsu; Multi Shadow Clone is.--JOA²⁰17:24, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Added a ref to the earth clone article. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 17:52, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

So to summarise: Orochimaru used it in the manga when he met Anko in the Forest of Death, Deidara's Suicide Bombing Clone is a shadow clone who ate Explosive Clay, Hayate's Dance of the Crescent Moon uses shadow clones, and Jiraiya (in the manga as well, if I recall correctly) used it when he was training Ame Orphans in a flashback, the shadow clone was defeated when Nagato and Konan used the Wind Release: Gale Palm and Paper Shuriken together. Anyone else to verify? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:18, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Ah, forgot about the Ame Orphans' training. Has Orochimaru ever used the Shadow Clone Technique in the anime, or should he be a manga only user? As has already been mentioned, the Earth Release: Shadow Clone is a real technique in Shippuden, but the technique used by Orochimaru and Hiruzen in the Part 1 anime was specifically called Body Replacement instead of Shadow Clone.--BeyondRed (talk) 19:02, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

The problem is that Shippuden makes it seem like the Substitution from Part 1 is the same technique. I'm pretty sure the episode in question was a flashback and Shippuden has been known to make errors when making flashback episodes for Part 1 content, usually changing it beyond what happened originally, causing confusion. Part 1 states the technique is a substitution, but Part 2 decides to unilaterally change canonically stated content for no reason. So I wouldn't put much stock into what Shippuden says when it makes fillers based on Part 1 canonical content. :) --Sajuuk _[Mod] 19:06, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Naruto's First Use?

In The Last: Naruto the Movie, we see that Naruto attempted this technique as a young child, but didn't he not even know of the technique until he stole the seal of forbidden jutsu in the first episode? Diamonddeath (talk) 09:36, July 28, 2015 (UTC)

Actually the dialogue in chapter 1/episode 1 kinda suggests he had known it before.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 11:41, July 28, 2015 (UTC)

Anko

In which game Anko uses this technique? I looked in various and not found she using this... Can someone tell me when she uses it? --Master Hyūga (talk) 15:05, January 18, 2016 (UTC)

In Naruto: Ultimate Ninja 3, Anko used this in story mode only as a joke with Naruto. → Rafael U. H. S. U. 18:00, January 18, 2016 (UTC)

For all who blind(Madara can't distinct Shadow Clones)

In chapter 601 in page 1 frame 1 it is perfectly clear that Madara stands in front of both real and clone Naruto then in page 2 frame 4 he suggests that Naruto who stands closer to him is clone(rightly) then he asks Obito where real one while clearly seeing him(real one) page frame 6. Page 9 frame 5 also shows us that real Naruto stand in two distances further of what Kakshi, Guy and Clone Naruto are, real one stands in 12 o'cloak of Madara while clone in hour there is no way someone stands in front of real Naruto covering him from Madara's gaze. Most ridiculous in this one wrote that in page while wanking him made him as blind as molerat while Madara even without Sharingan was able see from Hakage monument position(montain) to far reach of forest. Rage gtx (talk) 01:57, May 1, 2016 (UTC)

So i guess no one has anything against, this correction? If so, after 24h i will reqest SYSOP to take action. Rage gtx (talk) 00:46, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

Do read chapter again... Madara clearly stated that Naruto with Kakashi and Gai was Shadow Clone. Naruto with B and Gyūki was real. This was shown clearly when Madara went Naruto with B and Gyūki, in other words behind Kakashi and Guy. --JouXIII (talk) 01:25, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

I did read it clearly, but i can say same to you, please do read chapter. It is really that hard to wrap around your head that Madara saw both Naruto? Yet he asked "where is the real one?" Because he frickin did, in 3 page real Naruto asks Madara what he did to Gokake by your logic he must be unable to talk with Madara since he is behind Kakashi wich not true and shown In 5th frame of same page where Madara asks about Kagebunshin, and page 9 last frame. To Madara clone Naruto is in hour and real one 12 o'clock there is no way he can't see him unless he has vision worst than that of normal human. Madara that can distinct Shadow Clones is pure fanon. Rage gtx (talk) 01:38, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

Obviously you haven't read the chapter well, since real Naruto was practically in the shadow of Gyūki and Madara only reacted to real Naruto after he asked what happened to the Kage. Also, if Madara can see difference between real one and Wood Clone, which is practically better than Shadow Clone, he has no trouble with Shadow Clones. --JouXIII (talk) 02:13, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

Obviously you run out of arguments(true to say you did not had them at all). Madara had frickin Rinnegan wich evolved from Sharingan and he had better than average eyesight even without Sharingan, also real Naruto never was covered with shadow of Gyuki not in single frame, but even if it was true Madara's eyes can see chakra that shadow does not cover. And Wood Clone argument is total bull, WC will be made of Wood chakra wich Water plus Earth so it has atleast this flaw(chakra signature) where SC is made of pure user's chakra. Ability to differentiate WC never ever will proof of him being able to differentiate SC, since that's not a same techniques. Rage gtx (talk) 02:27, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

The fact is that Madara didn't focus on real Naruto until real Naruto himself asked about the Kage. Is's simple as that. It's not my fault that you have problem to comprehend it. --JouXIII (talk) 09:47, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

I also think that JouXIII is right, @Rage gtx. When Madara arrived on Obito's battlefield, the first thing he saw was this Naruto clone. Madara immediately noted that it seemed to be an another shadow clone. If Madara had taken into account the possibility of this Naruto being the real one, he wouldn't have said it beforehand. And when the real Naruto also began to scream at Madara, the latter, again immediately, recognised him as a real one. And again, Madara didn't know how many clones of Naruto could've been around (he'd already seen that Naruto can create a lot of them), yet identified the second screaming Naruto as a real one. It stands to reason that he was able distinguish between the shadow clones and the original. Since we know that Madara's mastery over the Sharingan was already exceptional (he wasn't the only Uchiha with the Sharingan, but was the only one from them who could recognise Hashi's wood clones), a pure logic allows us to conclude, that it allowed him to recognise the shadow clones as well. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 11:47, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

@JouXIII, well it's not my problem you do not have a facts either, "Where is real one" while seeing real one is argument enough. And expirienced shinobi did not see something is utterly ridiculous - even if it is your "argument".

@Ravenlot 27, and all your argument fails with simple fact Madara saw the real one yet asked Obito where he is wich says he did not know was real one real or clone. And stop using Wood Clones as argument because it is not an argument. You both do not have any argument beside: "well it's Madara he is exeptional" - and that's pure whiful thinking.

To put simply if you cannot debunk this chain: Madara saw clone and real Naruto|It is fact that he saw them => Madara guessed clone(rightly), but didn't regonize real one(since asked where he is)|It's fact he asked Obito about real one => Madara can't distinct Shadow Clones|This is logical conclusion based on facts.

Since you guys have no arguments and things like "he was not looking", "Naruto was hiding" won't do at all(and you are not Kishi make thins kind of claims), cause manga shows he was looking them and Naruto was not hiding. Rage gtx (talk) 21:37, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

Except Madara clearly didn't saw the real Naruto, since he had ask where the real one was and found him AFTER the real Naruto asked about the Kage. That is undeniable fact. Had Madara really saw both real and clone Naruto at the same time, he would have said so, something like, "Naruto in front of me is Shadow Clone and Naruto in the back is real...", not "That one is Shadow Clone, too. Where's real one?" From there we can only logically conclude that Madara DIDN'T saw the real Naruto. Simple as that. --JouXIII (talk) 22:07, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

THAT'S ISSUE HERE Madara "EYEMAN" Madara cannot have condition where he cannot see person in front of him, while looking in his side!. You used all kinds intellectual dishonesty(like so: He was in shadow, He was not looking, he was behind Kakashi) to wank him being abke to differentiate SC while making him outright blind or dumb. So stop with your wishful thingking. Rage gtx (talk) 22:14, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

What wishful thinking? I'm just stating facts, something you obviously have difficult to comprehend.--JouXIII (talk) 22:50, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

Thing is you adding plot statements that were not involed(they were not stated, sounded or implied) - that is by defenition a "wishful thinking". In first page of chapter 601 when Madara just arrived he was looking on them all. You say that despite fact author showed Madara looking at them he did not see real one, despite fact Madara is well known for his eyesight, he did not see real one, despite fact Rinnegan can see chakra he did not see real Naruto, despite fact nothing was hiding real Naruto not teammates backs nor shadow, Madara still did not see real Naruto and all of it just make Madara able to differentiate SC. You need to make so much excuses to his "Where is real one" - and that's why it is wishful thinking and fanon(something that has no place in this wiki). -_- Rage gtx (talk) 23:15, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

Except we DON'T see all the characters from first frame of chapter 601; that would be fanon from your end. The first time chapter shows real Naruto is after Madara regonises Naruto in front of him as Shadow Clone. No sooner than that. That is, again, fact straight from the chapter. So if you want to blame someone, blame Kishimoto and his assistants since they're the ones who made the chapter like it is. --JouXIII (talk) 23:57, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

Wait what? Do not put word in my mouth i never said we see all characters in first frame of first page - i said read by syllables if it's helps you: "MADARA SAW THEM ALL", fifth frame of ninth page proves that. Madara recognized clone that's good for him but he did not recognize real one(hence: "where where the real one"). If he cannot say that where is real one while seeing him that's not distinction at all. Moreso your: "The first time chapter shows real Naruto is after Madara regonises Naruto in front of him as Shadow Clone. No sooner than that." now you messing reader's point of view and character's point of view, just because Naruto is not shown in frame to us it does not mean he is not present, it also does not mean Madara did not saw him, just because you did not saw him, that's ridiculous conslusion. So only one i had to blame is you for your inability to comprehend straight facts Rage gtx (talk) 00:35, May 3, 2016 (UTC)

Well, it was you who claimed Madara saw them all when in fact chapter tells otherwise. So really, it seems it is you have trouble to comprehend straight facts. --JouXIII (talk) 07:57, May 3, 2016 (UTC)

@JouXIII, say something new, you repeatedly saing similar lines again and again won't make what you want to be, come true. And if don't have nothing new to say stop repling, do not turn section into trash talk. Rage gtx (talk) 11:35, May 3, 2016 (UTC)