Talk:Shadow Clone Technique

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Tsunade

Doesn't Tsunade use this technique as well (only in the anime)? Look at this video at 0:07 TheMissUzumaki (talk)

I don't know if the omake is counted as an anime-only or it's just like the openings or endings. http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a553/anaspet06/Shakhmootssign_zps2a261e68.png^(Contact) 20:46, October 16, 2013 (UTC)

And plus even if they are we don't know their necessarily shadow clones, they could be llightning for all we know since she is a presumed lightning type --Youngjusticeplayer007 (talk) 20:49, October 16, 2013 (UTC)

Don't recall us ever considering omake canon. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:09, October 16, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, If we did add it, it would have to be noted that it was only in an omake, and it is unknown what kind of clone this is. It is only known that is not a standard bunshin as she was able to physically touch objects. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 01:56, October 17, 2013 (UTC)

Splitting the Soul?

Consider this: Shiki Fujin "performs the sealing by dragging the target's soul into the user whose stomach is branded with the seal's mark. However, the sealing is double-edged as the user's soul is devoured by the Shinigami along with the target's, both souls trapped for all eternity within the fiend's stomach." Now, Hiruzen was able to seal Shodaime and Nidaime using Kagebunshin, with himself attempting to seal Orochimaru, each by letting the Shinigami's arm rip out the souls from both the Shadow Clone and the target he was holding on to. In Manga Ch.124 p.6 the Shinigami can clearly be seen holding two pairs of souls, each consisting of one of the hokages and hiruzen's clones souls mingling together.

Doesn't this imply that when creating Kagebunshin, the very soul is split up among the clones together with chakra? (This could also explain why experience/memory gained by a clone returns to the original, as his soul reunites). I'm not sure if this is appropriate mentioning in Trivia, just a logical thought.--Kiyuna (talk) 10:52, June 6, 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. Also, since the clones transmit epxerience, they should transmit the memory of the pain they felt, thus hurting the user every time his clones vanish from an attack or so. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 10:57, June 6, 2014 (UTC)

Shadow Clone Jutsu, better than Shadow Shuriken Jutsu in rank?

I was wondering something, they say that its harder to clone a weapon than a human being. (or something like that) That's why the "Shadow Shuriken Jutsu" Is A-rank and "Shadow Clone Jutsu" is B-rank, right? But many times, when Naruto clones himself, you see his shadow clones draw a weapon, like a kunai. I don't think that makes sense. Throw some money in your pocket and POOF double it :P can someone please explain or something. Because how it is now, the "Shadow Clone Jutsu" should be higher in rank than the shuriken one.

ZingoStar (talk) 07:11, July 10, 2014 (UTC)

Tiger Seal in the Manga

In Chapter 77, Naruto created Shadow Clones with the Tiger Seal. In the trivia section there is only about the Anime, don't we need to add this as well.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 21:09, August 4, 2014 (UTC)

Right. It should be mentioned in the infobox by the way--Elveonora (talk) 21:14, August 4, 2014 (UTC)

Users

There seems to be rather a lot of people listed here as users, who never used this technique and just happened to use Clone Technique or Body Replacement Technique instead. I don't even recall Jiraiya making use of a technique like this either, yet he seems to be listed. Can someone confirm where people used this technique? People like Deidara were not shown using this in the anime/manga, unless it's Novel or Movie. --Sajuuk _[Mod] 10:24, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Well, I'm not too sure how parent techniques were determined in the first place, but I'll start here. Orochimaru & Deidara are users of this technique on the basis that Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique & Suicide Bombing Clone respectively for each of these characters are both derived from Shadow Clone Technique. In other words, you can't use the derived techs without knowing the parent tech technique in some cases. It isn't uniform. As for Jiraiya, I don't recall him ever using it in the manga, but he did in the anime....episode #153. It should probably have the anime only tag, but I'm not sure.--Mina ^{talk | contribs} 10:49, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Where was it stated that "Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique" means you need to have known Shadow Clone Technique? If there's a chapter/episode/db ref that confirms this, would be good to know. o.O

I'll need to check that episode, but pretty sure he never used this technique. But I'll check for sake of ensuring things. --Sajuuk _[Mod] 10:53, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

I have no idea where that was stated. Maybe it's that, how could you create shadow clones of shiruken without knowing how to create shadow clones? It's also possible that previous databooks confirmed this. I really don't know, all I do know is that Shadow Clone Technique was listed as the parent tech, and that's how we've been handling it.--Mina ^{talk | contribs} 10:59, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Basic logic, if you don't know the basic move, how can you use the advanced version of the basic move? O.o

Substitutions have logs (or something else >.>), basic clones don't make poofs.--Omojuze (talk) 11:00, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

That's all but basic logic. First of all, the Shadow Clone Technique is not the basic technique, the Clone Technique is. Second, if you know how to drive a bike, do you automatically know how to drive a car? No. Also, do you need to know how to drive a bike when you want to learn how to drive a car? No. In the same way, you don't need to know how to produce human shadow clones if you want to produce shuriken shadow clones. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 11:10, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

So Tau, you don't think that to perform shuriken shadow clones, you'd need to know how to apply the Shadow Clone Technique? That's essentially all I'm getting at. I didn't even come up with this thing, it's something that's been done around here for a long time, long before I was a member. Also, the bike-car example is a very poor one, because bikes and cars don't operate the same way. Not even close.--Mina ^{talk | contribs} 11:13, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

They don't, I know. But what they have in common is the "driving". I could do the same metaphor with a bike and a unicycle. Or a car and a truck. My point is that you don't need to know one to know a similar one. Both are clones, but one is with humans, the other with shuriken. Why would you even need to know the human version? Shuriken aren't humans after all. And who decided that it's not the other way around? Why don't you need to master the shuriken version first if you want to master the human version? • Seelentau 愛 ^議 11:17, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Lol yes I see your point. You're essentially saying that they're different techniques and that knowing the Shadow Clone Technique isn't necessarily a requirement for knowing the Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique, or vise versa. That, however, isn't the logic this wiki's gone by in recent months and that's all I'm saying. I can see it the other way though, in that the shuriken shadow clones is a mere "application" of shadow clones. But you're right in that it isn't set in stone.--Mina ^{talk | contribs} 11:23, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Of course it's an application of shadow cloning. But so is the human version. What makes the human version the "basic version" and the shuriken version a derived version? Why not the other way around, if any? I say that they're both based on the shadow cloning principle, but equally derived versions, not superior and inferior and surely not based on another. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 11:27, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Tobirama most likely developed the Shadow Clone after analysing the basic clone. The principle is the same, except that cloning ninja tools is stated to be different to cloning yourself. At least, according to the article. :P

Fact is, the series has showcased that people can "analyse" the principles of a technique, then develop their own techniques based on the "idea". That doesn't mean they must be able to use the technique they've analysed, as it's been stated a lot of times that the Shadow Clone uses lots of chakra.

I can't imagine everyone being able to just make physical clones of themselves on a constant basis. --Sajuuk _[Mod] 11:34, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Exactly. Maybe we should reconsider which techniques serve as a basis to others and which doesn't... • Seelentau 愛 ^議 11:56, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

In my opinion, people should only be added as a user if they're actually seen "using" the technique. Derivatives don't count as "using" the technique, as it's something else entirely. Forum thread might be needed for this... (and I'm glad we're agreeing on something :D) --Sajuuk _[Mod] 11:58, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, well for example. Tailed Beast Ball is considered the parent technique for Rasengan, but we obviously ain't listing Jiraiya, etc...as users lol. Shadow of the Dancing Leaf & Lion Combo are listed as parent techs for Naruto's Naruto Uzumaki Combo, but we're not gonna list Naruto for the latter two. I think we should also concretely define what a parent technique is.--Mina ^{talk | contribs} 12:03, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

But, Mina-san, no they aren't... And I do see what Seele is saying, and I have to say, I sorta agree. It should be moved to variations/related jutsu. It was listed as a derived technique right from the start, though.--Omojuze (talk) 12:05, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Wow, what a dumbass I was. They're actually "related techs" lol. My bad. Point still stands on my latest example though. Again, we just need to redefine what a parent technique is, and that'll clear everything up.--Mina ^{talk | contribs} 12:08, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

It's another fanon term that causes confusion. x) There obviously are parent techniques in the manga, but once again, we're lacking a definition. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 12:10, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Personally, we should just go back to how it used to be: we only list users of techniques if they're physically seen activating said technique. Being a user of a derivative/variant does not equate to the user using the parent. It would solve the problem easily. At least, from my perspective on the matter. --Sajuuk _[Mod] 12:13, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

That would make things a lot less complicated, yes.--Mina ^{talk | contribs} 12:23, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Seeing as it hasn't been pointed out yet, Orochimaru actually did use the Shadow Clone Technique against Anko in the Forest of Death, at least in the manga. In the anime, he used this instead. It was said to be a Body Replacement, but we currently consider it to be an Earth Release variant of Shadow Clone for whatever reason. All of the other manga users listed are also correct except for Jiraiya, who I'm fairly certain never used this.--BeyondRed (talk) 16:24, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

That's not a Shadow Clone. That is nothing more than an Earth-Style substitution. Hiruzen used EXACTLY the same technique earlier in said fight, which was just a basic substitution.

And you should probably read the rest of the discussion, since some of the listed users clearly didn't actually use the technique, but some sort of variant. --Sajuuk _[Mod] 16:28, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

And Jiraiya absolutely has used this technique...again, Naruto Shippuden Episode #153.--Mina ^{talk | contribs} 16:31, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Jiraiya is listed as a manga user currently. If he did indeed use it in the anime, he should have the anime only tag. As for the Earth technique from Part 1, I agree that it was just a substitution, not an Earth Release Shadow Clone as we currently classify it (though that apparently did appear in Shippuden). Apologies if I was unclear about that. I was simply saying that all of the manga users besides Jiraiya are correct and can be verified (I can't speak for the anime-only users). In Deidara's case, his clone was in fact a regular Shadow Clone up until the point where it consumed the clay, thus becoming a Suicide Bombing Clone. --BeyondRed (talk) 17:09, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

If he used it in the manga, a source for where it was seen, so that someone can check it, would be useful.

The problem is some of the listed users didn't use a Shadow Clone. And in Deidara's example, how can you create a Shadow Clone without hand signs? It was him, up to a point where he substituted or used Body Flicker. o.O

I know for a fact Hayate did NOT use this in the anime, no idea about manga, but his "Crescent Moon Dance" was an illusion, not shadow clones. Unsure about Itachi, as the anime tends to take liberties with dubbing and incorrectly refers to the basic "Clone Technique" as though it's the Shadow Clone (see end of Naruto v Neji in Chunin Exams for an example).

According to manga facts, the Shadow Clone is a kinjutsu. A lot of the uses of "clones" would have resulted in the caster's death if they were real clones. Even Seelentau doesn't agree with the number of users (I did see Minato make a clone, but it's anime only, not seen in manga: if it's in manga, chapter ref would be useful). --Sajuuk _[Mod] 17:15, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Crescent Moon Dance isn't an illusion, it requires Shadow Clones. Itachi used the Shadow Clone against Kakashi after Orochimaru's Invasion (see Clone Great Explosion). Minato created a Shadow Clone right before Obito became the Ten-Tails' jinchūriki. Shadow Clone isn't a kinjutsu; Multi Shadow Clone is.--JOA²⁰17:24, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Added a ref to the earth clone article. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 17:52, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

So to summarise: Orochimaru used it in the manga when he met Anko in the Forest of Death, Deidara's Suicide Bombing Clone is a shadow clone who ate Explosive Clay, Hayate's Dance of the Crescent Moon uses shadow clones, and Jiraiya (in the manga as well, if I recall correctly) used it when he was training Ame Orphans in a flashback, the shadow clone was defeated when Nagato and Konan used the Wind Release: Gale Palm and Paper Shuriken together. Anyone else to verify? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:18, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Ah, forgot about the Ame Orphans' training. Has Orochimaru ever used the Shadow Clone Technique in the anime, or should he be a manga only user? As has already been mentioned, the Earth Release: Shadow Clone is a real technique in Shippuden, but the technique used by Orochimaru and Hiruzen in the Part 1 anime was specifically called Body Replacement instead of Shadow Clone.--BeyondRed (talk) 19:02, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

The problem is that Shippuden makes it seem like the Substitution from Part 1 is the same technique. I'm pretty sure the episode in question was a flashback and Shippuden has been known to make errors when making flashback episodes for Part 1 content, usually changing it beyond what happened originally, causing confusion. Part 1 states the technique is a substitution, but Part 2 decides to unilaterally change canonically stated content for no reason. So I wouldn't put much stock into what Shippuden says when it makes fillers based on Part 1 canonical content. :) --Sajuuk _[Mod] 19:06, June 25, 2015 (UTC)