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New members Edit

Add Kawarama, Senju Father and Itama on the infobox.186.204.178.25 (talk) 13:17, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

They're there, you probably have an old version of the page in your cache. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:41, March 16, 2013 (UTC)

Click on Refresh button from the dropdown menu.~ UltimateSupreme 16:01, March 16, 2013 (UTC)

Senju Clan Symbol Edit

Ok, I think I may have found what the Senju Clan's symbol is based off of. I think it's a Vajra[1]. (the Wikipedia page doesn't really show it, so here's another link that shows it a bit better [2]) What do you guys think? --Soren7550 (talk) 16:34, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

It does have a similarity. I'll write up something. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:49, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Wood release is very rare among the clan Edit

Ok, I believe that Wood Release may be their Kekkei genkai but not all Senju display the release, so far Hashirama is the only known Senju to display this Kekkei genkai. Because of the Kekkei genkai only occurring in one known Shinobi, it would be safe to infer that this Kekkei genkai is an autosomal recessive trait, meaning it is a rare occurring trait.

I did not ever state that it is not their Kekkei genkai, I am only saying that it is autosomal dominant, meaning it is a very rare occurring trait like the blue people of Kentucky. Allow me to edit it and put my trivia thing back so we can allow this wiki to be as accurate as possible.

Also my Travia thing is supported by the fact that Tsunada and Tobimaru lacks the wood release.Csfranklin (talk) 22:26, March 21, 2013 (UTC)

Hashirama was merely the only one to awaken it. There's no need to speculate on why or how. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:33, March 21, 2013 (UTC)

If it was as simple as awakening it then Tsunada would've done so when she was literally cut in half. You see, Autsomal recessive wouldn't quite mean only Hiroshima carries the bloodline but it would mean he would be the only one that displays the ability. Kekkei Genkai are inherited their blood and what I am telling you is the science if understanding and identifying genes that are passed down by parents, because if this is a Kekkei genkai it would've been passed down by blood which supports my statement, the wood release is a Kekkei genkai and in their blood but not all display this technique, some just carry it in their genes unknowlingly. Csfranklin (talk) 22:45, March 21, 2013 (UTC)

Tobimaru is a hawk, not a Senju Clan member--Elveonora (talk) 22:35, March 21, 2013 (UTC)

I meant Tobirama...Csfranklin (talk) 22:47, March 21, 2013 (UTC)

You aren't telling us anything we didn't know--Elveonora (talk) 23:03, March 21, 2013 (UTC)

Apparently you hadn't known because you removed my trivia question.Csfranklin (talk) 23:08, March 21, 2013 (UTC)

As someone who has had a discipline of genetics at college-level, I'm more aware than how genetics work than the average person, and I can tell you that there's no point in saying why no other Senju has displayed it, as there could be any number of reasons. Just because something is genetic, it doesn't mean it's automatically inheritable in one way or another. You're looking at genotype only, and there's a whole other layer called epigenetics, not to mention phenotypes. All things that become inheritable begin somewhere. Hashirama was merely the first one to have a genetic sequence allowing for that combination, and none of his descendants inherited it. Simple as that. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:10, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

You realize Phenotypes are part of Genotypes which makes it up... Like I've been saying, the genotype is Autosomal recessive because the PHENOTYPES are inherited that way. What country are you in? That's only Highschool level where in America. epigenetics is the study of changes in phenotype caused by mechanisms other than changes in the underlying DNA sequence, some of which are heritable. This further supports what I previously typed.Csfranklin (talk) 00:58, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

Phenotype is, in its plainest definition, the set of the individual's genotype added to environmental aspects of which act and interact with it. You really want me to discuss epigenetic changes like in-utero hormonal shifts increasing the translational output of genes, or how differences in acetylation and methylation increases affinity to transcription factors? My point is, it doesn't matter why Hashirama is the only one to have Wood Release, it only matters that he is. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:09, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

Lol, I would like to bring to your attention that you're very wrong, Phenotypes are what makes up a genotype, two of which makes a complete genotype. My point is that you're wrong and won't accept reason, you never let anyone make changes to the wiki because you have nothing better to do then try to correct people when yourself are wrong.Accept your wrongness. Csfranklin (talk) 23:28, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

Can you two please respect that some of us in here are mortals as well? As dumb as I feel, I have no idea what the two of you are arguing about.--Elveonora (talk) 12:19, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

Know that you are not alone in this Elveonora. Any way, I don't think this is something that needs to be mentioned in the article. The way I understand the Senju worked, you could have every tenth person wielding a kekkei genkai that was unique to them, because they were the clan of a thousand skills. That doesn't make the ability any less Senju related/owned. Apart from that I feel like these are the real-world things that will just fly over people's heads. Granted it's a good explanation, but I doubt even Kishimoto was thinking along these lines at all. The furthest he's gone is calling Wood Release a hidenjutsu.--Cerez365^™(talk) 12:45, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry Elveonora... And Cerez, if it was just a Hiden technique then it would've have been passed on to the clones.Csfranklin (talk) 15:35, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

Drop the "I'm right, everyone else is wrong" attitude. It is a unique technique to Hashirama, nobody else in his clan has ever shown any signs of having it. We don't care about reality and what is meant to happen since this is just a fictional series and Kishi-sensei decides the storyline. Simply put, Kishi has decided that only Hashirama is to have the Wood Release in his clan, with others getting it from DNA injections, so we can't go against what he's decided and put speculation in the article. --Speysider ^{Talk Page | My Image Uploads | Tabber Code | Channel} 15:42, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

So, we should remove the Kekkei genkai from the clan's page because that is merely speculation. Yamato and the Zetsu clones all use Wood Release and have the exact same DNA as him, meaning it's his DNA that is unique and he had a rare Kekkei genkai.Csfranklin (talk) 15:57, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

If you look up anywhere, it'll say that phenotype is the product of the genotype, the environment, and the genotype-environment interactions. And for the last time, Wood Release is only listed as their kekkei genkai because Wood Release became highly associated with the clan, so much they became known as "Senju Clan of the Forest". If any other clan became highly associated with a kekkei genkai, despite only one person having it, said kekkei genkai would be listed in the clan's page as well.Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:13, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

I'm guessing you mean wouldn't in which case, you might be wrong. There are a couple cases where the hidenjutsu possessed by some may be genetic-based. Any way, that is not what I meant. Within the Senju, because of the fact that they were not a typical clan i.e. one skill common amongst all members you could've had ten different kekkei genkai unique to different people rather than being common. So that means people could've had X Release, Y Release, Z Release, amongst other non-nature transformation based abilities which would all be listed as kekkei genkai of the clan. As I said before, you've gone outside the realm of relevant out-of-world trivia, to something that will only confuse of disinterest people, so I don't think it's necessary to mention at all.--Cerez365^™(talk) 16:20, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

Wood Release is a mutation unique to Hashirama, and since he was a member of the Senju Clan, it's being listed as their KKG. Kimimaro was also the only one with creepy bones, yet it's listed as Kaguya KKG, that's the only and simplified reason, no genetics to justify or disprove it are needed.--Elveonora (talk) 20:27, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

Omibender idk where you learnt that at but you're clearly wrong, the genotype is back up of two Phenotypes and anything else you would say is completely wrong. You could looked it up anywhere and you will discover that the genotype is made up of two phenotype. Also, it was stated that most of the Kaguya clan did have it and not just Kimimaro. Even the Kaguya clan Kekkei genkai is genetics since it is inherited through the blood, remember Kekkei genkai is translated to "a technique limited to inheritance by blood" or "blood limit", both of which involve blood. Did you know that in a few decades we may be able to replicate the Kaguya clan Kekkei genkai with rl people? We've already had a dog's head live without a body for a long time until the mechine got turned off. We even cloned sheep and body parts so Zetsu clones is already almost possible.Csfranklin (talk) 04:21, March 24, 2013 (UTC)

You should separate your hobbies involving real-life laws and chemistry from those of fiction.--Elveonora (talk) 12:16, March 24, 2013 (UTC)

No Csfranklin, you're wrong. Either you're confusing phenotype for something else, or you were taught it wrong. Here are results that show up in the three first pages of a Google search for "phenotype", all agreeing with me, and disagreeing with you: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:12, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

Come on Omni, it's irrelevant in this case who is right/wrong, no need to show off who is the wiser :) the page is being protected anyway, right? So no more adding of that trivia--Elveonora (talk) 18:10, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

The main argument was always the moniker the clan got out of it, we would keep it regardless, but being told off by someone using a simple concept he or she clearly does not grasp and that I do, that is beyond me. Go troll someone else. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:38, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

Omni you're such an idiot, all your links just prove you wrong. Unless you cannot understand English or just a plan retard you should know that the links provide the information that prove me right and you wrong. Phenotypes are what makes the Genotypes. Idiot, go back to Highschool.Csfranklin (talk) 14:12, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

That'll do Csfranklin, that'll do. It's apparent that despite the fact that we've tried to even explain to you in-universe why Wood Release would be listed, your intelligence that reign far superior to ours won't allow you to comprehend the workings of our less developed brains.--Cerez365^™(talk) 14:18, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Cerez, your not an idiot and I do believe your brain is equals to all others, but the only reason I continued this is because he tried proving me wrong in a known fact. He was wrong in what Phenotypes were and he tried supporting his false information by links which further proved me to be right. I'm also sick of Omni thinking he is soul power in this wiki and nobody else can do anything.Csfranklin (talk) 14:24, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

What you are saying is completely off-topic. Well, what was the point of this topic in the first place?--~ UltimateSupreme 14:25, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

He wanted in not so few words to note that Wood Release was unique to Hashirama despite the fact that it was a kekkei genkai. Tried to explain that's how the Senju rolled, like Russian Roulette, and then there was a bit about geno/phenotypes which as I said before is too advanced and out of universe to hold any meaning to people.--Cerez365^™(talk) 14:29, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

I want to note the rareness if wood release and that it is a Kekkei genkai but a rare one because it was a recessive trait. Kishimoto is a pretty smart man, probably smarter then anyone of us here, I have complete faith that he thinks of all the details before making a character's DNA be cloned and retain their advanced release. No matter what the Release is blood related but only one known Senju has had it.Csfranklin (talk) 14:36, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Ah, got it. Perhaps we could just enter a little sentence saying that: Hashirama is the only known Senju to have awakened the Wood Release.--~ UltimateSupreme 14:43, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that would be surfice, I guess... Sorry the whole discussion I just don't take kindly to people claiming the facts I speak, in this case Phenotyoed being what makes up Genotypes, are wrong. When he presented links to try to prove me wrong they further proved me right. Btw, I thought there was a rule against links to other sites in this wiki? Csfranklin (talk) 14:52, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

No, to scanlation sides and other illegal stuff, there's nothing wrong with google search. EDIT: also you have called Omni an uneducated retard, that's personal. I don't know a sh** about this biology stuff u two are talking about, am I an uneducated retard too? Sorry for not everyone being a professor of genetics--Elveonora (talk) 15:10, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

No, because you didn't have a long discussion with me about something you were wrong about.Csfranklin (talk) 18:23, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Still, you can;t come here and attack Omnibender like that and expect it to go down well. Apart from that it is already mentioned as clear as day that Hashirama is the only one to have the ability: "The most famous member of the clan was Hashirama Senju, whose unique Wood Release ninjutsu that gave the clan the nickname the Senju clan of the forest (森の千手一族, Mori no Senju Ichizoku)". The Wood Release article also makes this clear.--Cerez365^™(talk) 23:54, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Omni was the one that attacked me, he attacks everyone and automatically assumes he is right even though he was wrong. It is impossible for Wood release to be an advanced nature because it was transered to the Zetsu clones and Yamoto using his DNA. The Kishimoto is odd, he sometimes has characters say things that are debatable to one another, there is no telling after or not it gained it's nickname because if Hashirama or already had it. The Senju clan is based off a rl clan btw.Csfranklin (talk) 01:32, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

As far as I can see, no-one here has said Omnibender was right because I at least, have very limited knowledge of genetics. What I do have though is a pretty decent knowledge of Naruto while I'm not too sure you completely understand the series. Basic natures are fire, wind, water, earth, and lightning. Advanced natures are created from using two or more of these natures simultaneously, creating a unique nature. That being said, Wood Release is an advanced nature transformation because it used earth and water to create vegetation. The ability to combine basic nature transformations and use them simultaneously is called a bloodline limit or kekkei genkai, which is why it was passed on to Hashirama's genetic clones and Yamato who had his DNA rewritten by Hashirama's. Not because they were not passed down to other Senju (as far as we know because to be honest, Tsunade is the only person who stated that she did not inherit the ability) does not make it any less an advanced nature transformation or kekkei genkai. The same holds true for the Fourth Kazekage and Magnet Release, none of his children inherited the kekkei genkai to out knowledge. As for Senju being based off a real life clan, to my knowledge that has never been said.--Cerez365^™(talk) 01:53, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

Compromise was reached. Everybody can move on with their lives now. ~SnapperTo 02:08, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

Kinda pointless to add it to the trivia, when it's already mentioned in the middle of the article, as Cerez has already rightly mentioned. Csfranklin, I've seen the trend with you. In every discussion I've seen you take part so far (this is the third), you either argue for something that goes against everything established in the manga (Minato discussion), or you argue for something that is outright wrong (Uzumaki mask temple location), despite the chapter being perfectly clear about it. Your misunderstanding of how an advanced nature is composed of two basic ones shows how poor of a grasp you have over the manga. Can't say I look forward to any other topic you either start or take part into in the future. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:51, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

Call me a speculator, but I believe that perhaps not just Hashirama possesses Wood Release, he might be it's only legit user. But I doubt (unless such was stated) that advanced nature KKG users are born with the knowledge as how to perform the two natures that make it up. In other words, I believe Hashirama had to learn Water and Earth releases before he discovered that he could combine them and use Wood. Perhaps even Tobirama has it, he just simply knows not how to transform the nature of his chakra into earth's for it to be possible. For Zetsu, they are wood release creation, it's part of their beings. Orochimaru thought all his hash-dosed children to have died a failure, meaning that Yamato didn't show the power right after the experiment was done. Danzo is questionable, perhaps he knew water and earth, not just wind. A little more about Hashirama, during the flashbacks as a child, there's not even a hint of anyone being aware that he is a Pinocchio, nor himself shows such. His father or brothers weren't like: "omg, ur unique, u must be protected at all costs, we will use ur power to take down the uchiha" etc. meaning it has likely manifested during his later years or he actually wasn't the only Senju with it and they were well aware about their power--Elveonora (talk) 11:18, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

As for the off-topic argument regarding phenotype and genotype: Omni is correct, and this coming from a holder of a degree in biology, concentration in physiology, having had plenty of genetics classes to obtain said degree. Phenotype is, in laymen terms, the physical sign of the genotype (genotype being the code that makes the phenotype -- the instructions that can lead to a phenotype; such as AAaa of a genotype leading to, say, brown eyes (phenotype), but so does AAAa (Mindful these are not the actual genotypes) resulting in two genotpes making up the same phenotype). The links Omni provided only support his case and not the opposite; in fact the wiki link providedd alone should suffice. If you do wish to further argue the point, I can pull out one of my old genetics text books from uni and take a picture of it, highlighting the portions. Or take Stanford University's link and review it. Pheno/Geno(type)

As for the on-topic: There is nothing wrong with changing the information to reflect that Hashirama is the only known user to either have or to have awakened Wood Release. But until more information is provided or release, we shoudl err' on the side of caution and simply state Hashirama is the only known user, as the latter suggests that others have it yet simply have not awakened it. And while it is possible to have a KKG such as that in several people, it also requires (to my knowlege, though I may be wrong) for the person to have an affinity of both elements; something where it cannot be learned. But as it stands, the wiki's pages already reflect that. I know others have concluded the discussion, but I felt the need to agree to further support the ideas presented. --98.101.165.89 (talk) 12:42, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

98.101.165.89 I was the one saying it the phenotype is the physical sign of the genotype... Like a female with the genotype of AA mates with a mlke that has aa, they offspring will have Aa. The Phenotypes A and a. Csfranklin (talk) 14:51, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

Abilities Edit

Could someone make a section on their abilities.--Shotcolla (talk) 20:16, April 7, 2013 (UTC)

Already mentioned in the article. Read the second paragraph in the History section.Umishiru (talk) 20:29, April 7, 2013 (UTC)