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Revision as of 22:05, September 26, 2013 by Elveonora (Talk | contribs)

Senjutsu?

I have a slight issue/slightly confused on the matter. I know Jūgo's clan uses natural energy and all but is it right to classify what they do as Senjutsu o.O--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 11:47, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't seem like any of them actually controlled the energy so it's probably not classifiable as Senjutsu. TricksterKing (talk) 12:05, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
I wouldn't call it senjutsu. Senjutsu is what happens when you have senjutsu chakra, which requires a minimum of balance between the three energies. Jūgo and his clan were never said to balance those three energies. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:38, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
But Orochimaru's cursed seals use senjutsu chakra, why wouldn't Jugo? And unbalanced natural energy turns people into stone.

On another note, anyone else notice that Jiraiya's unbalancing of senjutsu chakra in parts of his body to make himself toad-like is similar to sage transformation? Also, when Jugo was talking about orochimaru taking his power from kabuto, he referred to kabuto's sage mode as sage transformation (in mangastream translation, someone please check if this is accurate), which leads me to believe they are one and the same, with the exception of it being a kekkei genkai. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 19:33, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

Orochimaru applied his own senjutsu chakra to the seal, and you only turn to stone if while taking in the natural energy, you can't handle it and it overwhelms you. From what I understood, Sage Transformation is due to passive absorption of natural energy. However, because Jūgo can't balance it, it causes the transformations. Kabuto used that ability to make it easier to absorb natural energy, but he was able to balance it with his chakra, creating senjutsu chakra, thus entering a true Sage Mode. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:13, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

Nothing special

I don't think this is worth an extra article. The term just describes what Naruto and all the others are doing when they gather natural energy. Seelentau 愛 14:08, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

But getting rid of this article would mean we'd have nothing to list Jūgo as a user of. For me, this lists the passive absorption of natural energy, which isn't the case with true Sages. Kabuto did this, but unlike Jūgo's clan, he was able to balance the three energies to enter in a true Sage Mode. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:38, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

Kabuto?

Why is he listed as a user, he has Sage Mode 0_o--Elveonora (talk) 11:13, July 12, 2012 (UTC)

I was wondering that too. Mabye they thought thats why kabuto had the scales and navel snake. It kinda makes sense though, cause he gained the ability to passivley absorb senjutsu chakra.71.71.58.236 (talk) 11:40, July 12, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan

I thought it was because he also intigrated Jugo's DNA into him, allowing him to also passively absorb natural energy. Maybe I am mistaken about that? Joshbl56 11:48, July 12, 2012 (UTC)

But Sage Transformation isn't the ability to passively absorb Natural Energy, this one is the state/transformation that's a result of that. We should create an article for "Jugo Clan's unnamed Kekkei Genkai" to avoid confusion.--Elveonora (talk) 12:05, July 12, 2012 (UTC)

i think we should do a vote with the other users before doing so. i personally am against it because we know way too little about this.71.71.58.236 (talk) 12:12, July 12, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan

"Sage Transformation" is cleary Jugo and his clan absorbing natural energies due to their KKG, the energy affecting an enzyme somehow thus triggering their transformation and rage/madness. Thus the ability to absorb natural energy and to transform are 2 different things, Kabuto has/had the former while never used the latter--Elveonora (talk) 12:19, July 12, 2012 (UTC)

But as I checked ,the chapter says "sage transformation" has been released, that would indicate that Kabuto's mutated form was not only due to Orochimaru's DNA but also Jugo's, and by Oro absorbing Senjutsu chakra and somehow his own DNA as well, Kabuto turned normal. That would explain why even though according to the popular belief he is a perfect sage, had a physical transformation, he was a "dragon" due to Jugo's enzyme mutating him further or something.--Elveonora (talk) 12:52, July 12, 2012 (UTC)

ohhhhhh, and when juugo said to suigetsu that oro didnt suck kabuto's chakra out he just removed his own which would explain why kabutos mutated form was reversed.71.71.58.236 (talk) 13:25, July 12, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan

From what I understood, Kabuto used the ability of Jūgo's clan in order to passively absorb natural energy, but unlike the clan, he managed to balance it with his own chakra, creagint senjutsu chakra, achieving Sage Mode. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:12, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

Omni, yes. But Sage Transformation isn't the clan's KKG. This is a state that's a result of their power to absorb the energy, not the power itself.--Elveonora (talk) 21:05, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

ninjutsu?

It's not a jutsu at all. At least I wouldn't define it as such. It's not like the transformation is a result of a technique, it's due their unique bodies reacting oddly.--Elveonora (talk) 00:55, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

That's right, it's definitely not a ninjutsu someone should edit that.--Charmanking2198 (talk) 01:01, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

What would this be then? It's not properly a senjutsu either, per previous section. Would it simply be a fighting style? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:22, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

but that dosen't mean it is a ninjutsu either.--Charmanking2198 (talk) 17:53, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

It isn't a jutsu. It's control of his body, like you moving your muscles for example. The closest thing in concept to this would be Eight-Gates, this one is a kekkei genkai though--Elveonora (talk) 21:32, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

I agree. I'd also say it is senjutsu because it uses natural energy which allows this state. I've seen the discussion above, but I'm not entirely sold. If not senjutsu, then label it natural energy and it'd be settled, imo. --Taynio (talk) 21:41, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

It's just "Sen" without the "jutsu" part lol. As a comparison, imagine Juugo is a werewolf and sage transformation is him turning into a beast. We don't consider jinchuuriki transformations as techniques either, this is similar; a transformation that results from their kekkei genkai acting oddly to natural energy. (And yes, it's a kkg since it's not hiden and can be transferred to others)--Elveonora (talk) 22:49, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

I agree, i have been thinking ever since jugo's clan abilities were revealed in the manga, that we should label the Sage Transformation , as a Kekkei Genkai i mean this ability is very similar to what happens to the uchiha. Whene they lose the people that they care about or at least whene these people get badly injured an uchiha's brain reacts to that and ejects a special chakra making a change in his eyes(the sharingan or mangekyou) wich is the same thing that happens to jugo's clan members and how their body reacts to natural energy, i don't see why this shouldn't be a kekkei genkai.--Charmanking2198 (talk) 13:21, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

My suggestion is that we make this page kinda similiar to how the sharingan article is. it is not a technique but at the same time it is mentioned to be a kekkei genkai and all the techniques related to the Sage Transformation (things like Piston Fist and Chakra Blast Cannons) are lablled as kekkei genkai.--Charmanking2198 (talk) 13:33, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

can anybody please see my suggestion? anyone? --Charmanking2198 (talk) 16:21, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

More opinions?--Elveonora (talk) 21:16, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

What would it be then? I didn't get what ST will become. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 23:16, July 7, 2013 (UTC)
I view it the same as Sage Mode in some respects. Both are about absorbing natural energy and both have transformations. The kekkei genkai, as I understood it, however, was the ability to passively collect natural energy in the body. This caused outbreaks, but also allows them to transform in any normal situation. The definition of ninjutsu is any technique or ability that allows the user(s) to perform something they otherwise wouldn't do. This would include Sage Transformation. It may not use seals or normal chakra, but it still fits the definition. --Taynio (talk) 01:15, July 8, 2013 (UTC)

They have 2 kekkei genkai it seems, one is responsible for the passive absorption of natural energy while the other allows them the shape-shifting stuff. Evidence:

  • they get mad as a result of loosing control over themselves due to natural energy, but this happens even if they don't transform
  • they can transform without loosing control

Clearly shows it's two separate things, more evidence:

  • cursed seals are a fuuinjutsu versions of sage transformation
  • cursed seals users don't get the ability to passively absorb natural energy

I'd compare it to Hyuga clan, they were stated to possess multiple kekkei genkais, while only Byakugan has been noted. The other is likely their inborn ability to use all tenketsu, but it's unnamed because it's being viewed as a part of the Buyakugan, while it really isn't. They wouldn't loose it if you ripped out their eyes. Something similar is going on in this case--Elveonora (talk) 01:36, July 8, 2013 (UTC)

Bump--Elveonora (talk) 14:20, July 14, 2013 (UTC)

Renaming this Article

I would like to propose changing the name of this article (again). As shown by the conversations above, others also think the naming for this skill is off. What Jūgo's clan does is passively absorb natural energy but it was never mentioned that they were able use Senjutsu/Sage Mode (the article itself even states that clan members still have to learn how to use senjutsu). Instead, it seems like the natural energy changes the way they look. I would propose either the name said earlier (Jūgo's clan's unnamed Kekkei Genkai) or something along the lines of "Natural Energy Transformation". Joshbl56 01:55, August 10, 2013 (UTC)

I'm against changing the name, but i am in favor of re-working this article to show it's nature as a KKG...it affects the user at a specific physical level...he cursed seals were based on the enzymes of Jugo and it was stated as a unique clan ability that un-controlable. Darksusanoo (talk) 02:10, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
I agree with re-working the article as well. May I ask why the name shouldn't be changed? Jugo doesn't go into sage mode, only absorbs natural energy, and his appearance changes based on that. Joshbl56 03:10, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
Chapter 593, page 5...Jugo calls it Sage Transformation...which by itself is different form Sage Mode.Darksusanoo (talk) 03:48, August 10, 2013 (UTC)

Except Sage Transformation is official by canon given name. But will all the evidence we have, it's very likely that Sage Transformation and the said Kekkei Genkai which is responsible for the natural energy absorption are 2 powers, not one.--Elveonora (talk) 12:20, August 10, 2013 (UTC)

I'll ask seelantau for a translation of the page (if he doesn't already have one) since the one I read said that his original form was this. If that's what he meant, then it would seem the enzyme and the form are different. Joshbl56 17:44, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
Either way, the article should be re-work to note it's nature as a kekkei genkai...Darksusanoo (talk) 15:42, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
One topic above is above similar thing, yet it has gone ignored. I wouldn't hold my breath--Elveonora (talk) 15:46, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
Well, seeing as we have a few supporters, why not just make a quick edit and if someone reverts then we can try to pull a few people into a conversation about making it a KKG page. The worse that could happen is someone reverting it Joshbl56 15:49, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
Wow, ignore what I said a moment ago, it was completely ignorant about all the jutsu pages and having to change them. Yeah, we should probably put this to a vote first. Joshbl56 16:06, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
  • The name cannot be changed, Jūgo literally gave it a name.
  • We don't know much about what happens with this technique so we shouldn't be nor need to rush to classify it as anything but a fighting style. For all we know it is a kekkei genkai though it operates as a mutagen and we don't know whether or not it's something they're doing to themselves to acquire this ability. It could be senjutsu since it uses natural energy, so here's a novel idea: wait for more information so we don't have to explain things with speculation.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 16:18, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

It's not about speculation, the desire to list it as a kekkei genkai is the fact it can be transferred onto others. I don't think one needs to modify oneself in order to use hiden jutsu of a clan--Elveonora (talk) 16:24, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

  • Yes, we came to that conclusion a little bit ago. Thank you for reinforcing it.
  • But we still need a page about the enzyme that allows them to passively absorb natural energy. Would this page not be the best place to put it since the transformations are triggered by said enzyme/passive ability? Joshbl56 16:28, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
It would be the best page to do so, along with his clan article.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 16:32, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

Why the image change tho? It shows the same thing, and generally we use a debut one. For the mutagen enzyme thing, nothing suggests it has to do with natural energy absorption. Again, they seem to be separate. We know that their bodies passively absorb natural energy and produce the enzyme responsible for Sage Transformation. The proof they are not the same is that those branded with cursed seals do not absorb natural energy. About kekkei genkai talk; quoting you Cerez: "we don't know whether or not it's something they're doing to themselves to acquire this ability" now I'm too lazy to search it up, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it's been explicitly stated in a chapter that it's naturally produced, not artificially--Elveonora (talk) 17:17, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

I changed it because it's already being used elsewhere. It actually shows a kinda neutral view of his abilities some face change and arm instead of full on crazy.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 17:20, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
Well, Grandpa Sage Six protect you from Mr. Image Policy (if you know who I mean) if that's the case. For the rest, do you still oppose us listing it as KKG even tho manga states the body produces it naturally? Generally, natural abilities that get passed down/clan shares and are transferable through artificial means equal kekkei genkai--Elveonora (talk) 17:26, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
As i said...the name is cannon, hence untouchable....however...by chapter 349, page 9...Karin refers that Orochimaru developed the Cursed Seals by cultivating an enzyme from Jugo...fast forward to chapter 579, page 14...Kabuto mentions that people from Jugo's clan have a special body that allows then to absorb natural energy. So enzyme/special body/clan ability/cultivated and artificially infused into other ninja...sounds like a KKG...Darksusanoo (talk) 18:18, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

Bump--Elveonora (talk) 19:32, August 16, 2013 (UTC)

I say we change the page into a KKG. The ability to absorb natural energy has already been contributed to the enzyme in the body (something only Jugo's clan has naturally) and it allows them to absorb and change their body structure. Joshbl56 20:04, August 16, 2013 (UTC)
Not exactly, there's no known relation between the absorption and the enzyme. The latter is responsible for sage transformation only not natural energy--Elveonora (talk) 20:07, August 16, 2013 (UTC)
Jugo's clan has a special enzyme that allows them to change their bodies and makes them go berserk. Kabuto mentioned them having special bodies that absorbed natural energy and make them go berserk. I thought we could make that connection that the enzyme (which is used in his curse seal to give the wielder Orochimaru's senjutsu chakra) absorbs natural energy. I guess it's too much speculation? If so, ignore my ramblings. Joshbl56 20:30, August 16, 2013 (UTC)
No, the enzyme wasn't said to give them natural energy. In fact, they directly get Orochimaru's senjutsu chakra. And it's ok, there's no reason for why I would ignore you.--Elveonora (talk) 20:51, August 16, 2013 (UTC)

It seems implied that Orochimaru's senjutsu chakra triggers the refined enzyme in the cursed seals, just like passively absorbing natural energy triggers the enzyme in Jugo's body. That would imply that Sage Transformation is a result of the enzyme, not the natural energy absorption directly, which would be a separate aspect of the kekkei genkai. Also, if this article were to be a kekkei genkai, would we need to use the romaji as the article title? That would conflict with "Cursed Seal Transformation" though.--BeyondRed (talk) 02:22, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

That's the way I get it as well. Their bodies absorb natural energy passively, it makes their mind go mad and their bodies as well produce the enzyme which triggers sage transformation. Not sure if to classify them as having 2 kekkei genkais or both being part of one?--Elveonora (talk) 12:30, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

Senjutsu (again)

So... Orochimaru has confirmed that in the recent chapter that this is senjutsu, i.e. uses senjutsu chakra. Which begs the question, is senninka the same as senninmodo? In the chapter that Orochimaru was brought back, Jugo referred to his (Orochimaru's) use of senjutsu as senninka, which would make it seem as if the two things are one and the same, with the exception of one being a kekkei genkai. Thoughts? Do we merge the two, or keep the two separate? Either way, all of Jugo's techs are senjutsu. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 08:01, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

No they are not the same...Sage Mode does not have the drastic physical transformations of Sage Transformation...they are similar because both are based around senjutsu chakra, but while one has to be learned, the other is a genetic ability. The only common ground between them is their power source. Darksusanoo (talk) 08:13, September 25, 2013 (UTC)
Except they do have similarities, they're just not apparent to everyone. Cursed seal level one is similar to perfect sage mode, where only pigmentation appears, whereas level two is comparable to imperfect sage mode, where transformation into an animal, or in Jugo's case multiple animals. This is hinted at in the picture showing the prisoners with their cursed seals activated, where they all take on the appearance of different animals. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 08:21, September 25, 2013 (UTC)
The similarities are due to both being natural energy based. Your argument makes no sense. The pigmentation and physical transformations of both are as different as heaven and earth and the animal comparison is a painful stretch at best. Plus we know that Jugo's ability is a Kekkei Genkai...hence it's different from the Sage Mode which is not a KKG. Darksusanoo (talk) 08:30, September 25, 2013 (UTC)
You misunderstand, Sage Transformation isn't Senjutsu, it just uses Senjutsu chakra--Elveonora (talk) 14:03, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

Except Orochimaru's exact words are 'Jugo's cursed seal is senjutsu'. Two translations so far that say that. Need our resident translator to confirm, but still. Jugo's sage transformation is senjutsu, and the derived techniques are by default. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 14:45, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

Kekkei Genkai can't be Senjutsu tho. His chakra is senjutsu chakra, so anything he does would in theory be senjutsu. That doesn't make Sage Transformation senjutsu though--Elveonora (talk) 18:20, September 25, 2013 (UTC)
Kekkei genkai can't be senjutsu? Says what? And by definition, anything that uses senjutsu chakra is senjutsu, so what you say makes no sense. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 18:30, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

You could save face if you actually read our senjutsu page. Specifically this bit "a specialised field of techniques". Meaning that while Sage Transformation is Jugo's clans way of absorbing natural energy it is not senjutsu.

And no, not everything using natural energy is senjutsu. Naruto initially could not use the Rasenshuriken without causing celluar damage to himself until he applied natural energy that did not turn Rasenshuriken into a senjutsu.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 18:59, September 25, 2013 (UTC)
I didn't say natural energy, I said senjutsu chakra. And rasenshuriken is ninjutsu because it can be used with ninjutsu chakra. And most senjutsu we've seen can be used as ninjutsu. Ultra big ball rasengan for example. I'm saying this is senjutsu because it only uses senjutsu chakra. Oh, that and Orochimaru blatantly stated "Jugo's cursed seal is senjutsu." So any argument you have against that fact is moot. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 19:53, September 25, 2013 (UTC)
And Jugo doesn't have cursed seal but sage transformation, you are missing the context completely. Oro is talking bout cursed seals in general.--Elveonora (talk) 20:40, September 25, 2013 (UTC)
No he isn't. He didn't say cursed seals. He said Jugo's cursed seal. And juinka was the name he gave to Jugo's ability. Not to mention the fact that he said Jugo gave his susanoo senjutsu chakra specifically, not natural energy. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 21:10, September 25, 2013 (UTC)
What does that have with anything? Doesn't mean sage transformation is senjutsu.--Elveonora (talk) 22:06, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

How I currently understand and rationalise this situation: raw translation pending, Orochimaru has unquestionably and unequivocally called Jūgo's cursed seal, and therefore his Sage Transformation senjutsu. On that basis, the cursed seal techniques developed by Orochimaru should be listed as senjutsu, and all of Jūgo's techniques which involve his transformations should be listed as senjutsu. None of those should be associated with the Sage Mode article. We must point out the differences between Jūgo-based senjutsu to canonical/original senjutsu where applicable. Now, on how I guess that this works: we know that senjutsu chakra is made by balancing the three energies. We know a perfect balance is not required for making senjutsu chakra. My guess, is that Jūgo's sage transformation can create unbalanced chakra, just enough for it work, though not necessarily stable, which is why there are so many accompanying transformations and mood swings. Either that or the transformations and mood swings part are a peculiarity of Jūgo's ability, much like Fourth Kazekage having rings on his eyes when using Magnet Release or Kakashi's earth walls having his ninken's designs instead of looking like regular earth walls. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:01, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

Or that because he's constantly absorbing it, the energy is having an effect on his psyche. That's my take on it. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 02:42, September 26, 2013 (UTC)

@Omni, Jugo doesn't have a cursed seal tho, I get it Oro was talking about cursed seals in relation to Sasuke and his other subjects rather than Jugo, the only thing about him was Oro saying what we already know that Cursed Seals which originate from Sage Transformation use Senjutsu chakra. The reasons why I don't think we should list it as Senjutsu are:

  • since his body absorbs natural energy constantly, he has senjutsu chakra all the time, meaning anything he does would be senjutsu following the logic, all techniques, but as already stated, we don't list rasengan/shuriken or shadow clones as Senjutsu in Naruto's case
  • since sage transformation is genetic, it can't be a senjutsu. What I'm getting at is that he doesn't necessarily need senjutsu chakra to transform his body, I brought this up two or more times before, I believe natural energy absorption and sage transformation are 2 different things
  • repeating myself, the context is important and Orochimaru might not have been too specific on what he meant--Elveonora (talk) 19:44, September 26, 2013 (UTC)
Well, your not getting it, apparently. Even if Orochimaru's statement is as vague as you say it is, he also said jugo transfered his chakra to susanoo to make a senjutsu susanoo. Not natural energy, but chakra. Your argument comes from a rationalization of Jugo's abilities that we came up with, simply because we don't understand how natural energy actually affects Jugo's psyche, and the differences between Jugo's senninka, and senninmodo. Which, by the way, is something Jugo never differentiated, as when Orochimaru undid Kabuto's sage mode, he referred to it as senninka. And as for how can sage mode be a kekkei genkai? Easily. There's been no rule stated that someone can't have the natural ability to do something that other people have to train for, even risk they're lives for it. The sharingan can perform genjutsu without any effort. Rinnegan users can learn the six elements with ease. So someone able to absorb natural energy and balance it with his chakra inately isn't some far flung, out of this (naruto's) world thing. Not to mention, the parallels to the two techniques. Just take a look at the picture of the cursed seal level two prisoners on the cursed seal page. Anything about them look familiar? Like, I don't know, an animal or two you might have seen before? Then look at Jiraiya's sage mode. Not only is it very frog like, but he can become even more of a frog. Are you starting to see what I'm getting at? And all level one is just pigmentation all over the body. And as for why Jugo's form is completely random? Why wouldn't it be? He was born with it, not trained by an animal. All of natural energy is his realm. He transforms into whatever he wants. I'm not going to keep arguing that senninka is senninmodo, but whether or not its senjutsu is indisputable. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 21:18, September 26, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not getting it because you aren't getting your point across well. What are you arguing about again or rather what purpose is this arguing meant to achieve?--Elveonora (talk) 22:05, September 26, 2013 (UTC)

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