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Madara
He basically just stole it from Hashirama, but he also stated that he managed to master it very quickly, so he should be listed as a user, right? Norleon (talk) 12:49, December 4, 2013 (UTC)
- I think it is the same with his Wood Release. It doesn't matter if the ability was stolen or acquired through body modifications, if he is using it, then he is an user. Shadow Abyss (talk) 13:27, December 4, 2013 (UTC)
- I think the situation is a bit subtler than that. With Wood Release, all Madara needed was a physical piece of Hashirama to be grafted in his body. For Sage Mode, even though he already had the physical implant, he had to go to Hashirama. He drained Hashirama of his senjutsu chakra (which I find very odd, since I don't recall Hashirama being in Sage Mode the last few chapters). He didn't make the senjutsu chakra himself (as far as we know), we don't even know if Madara knows the mechanics of how senjutsu chakra comes to be (though I believe he does). We don't consider people Naruto gave tailed beast chakra to be jinchūriki, so I don't think Madara should be considered a Sage Mode user, even if he's using the senjutsu chakra. The whole situation is murky. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:45, December 4, 2013 (UTC)
- Hello sempai. In regards to Madara i would have to disagree a bit...in an earlier chapter, he said he was going to take Hashi' senjutsu powers in chapter 647. Now in this one Madara says how the power of the senjutsu chakra was dissapointing and he believed it would be harder to control it. Not only that, but we say the perfect Sage pattern appear in Madara's chest face. Also we know that if unless senjutsu chakra can be balanced, the user will display animal traits and eventually turn into an animal statue. Being a sage is being one who can balance and control senjutsu chakra within himself. From where i see it, Madara simply took a shortcut to attain the same result. Darksusanoo (talk) 00:51, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- But there's something that has never been clarified: does senjutsu chakra require active balancing once it is made? I mean, do you have to keep balancing the spiritual, physical and natural energies once the senjutsu chakra is made, or once made in the perfect ratio, the chakra is stable? I also find it very odd that it was only the Hashirama face that got the markings, and that Madara himself didn't get them. And I repeat, Madara himself has not made the chakra as far as we know. We don't list every shinobi Naruto gave Kurama's chakra a host, because the source of the chakra is not in them. Madara may have a Hashirama graft, but the graft was not the source of the chakra he is using. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:40, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- But as Madara said, he did had to control the senjutsu chakra, even if that took less effort than what he originally assumed. Also i believe once the initial control is gained the chakra remains stable, but as we all know senjutsu chakra doesn't renew itself so for sages, there is no chakra source, they have to take the energy from outside sources and balance it with their own. If Madara hadn't gain control over the chakra, he'd turn into an animal like the Preta Path when he absorbed Naruto's chakra. And it was defined in the article that control (even if imperfect) over senjutsu chakra is what makes a sage. Also the Kurama comparison doesn't really fit here sempai, since we are talking about two very different types of chakra. Graft or no graft, that face is a part of Madara's body, thus its part of Madara himself and as such anything derived from it is Madara's own at this point.
- Another little side detail to add to this is Madara's insane sensing prowess after his revival. Given how Uchiha senses are restricted to visual/dojutsu ones and how once that is lost, their battle prowess takes a nosedive. (Izuna's death and Madara's final defeat against Hashi comes to mind.) I ask...how did Madara managed to dance around a Sharingan/sword master's attack, sense the peculiar traits of Sasuke's Sharingan, all while being effectively blind? The only type of sensing prowess this strong is that of a sage...remember Kabuto vs Sasuke and Itachi? Kabuto was also blind to prevent genjutsu and still outfought the brothers due his sensing in Sage Mode. Darksusanoo (talk) 01:57, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- But as Madara said, he did had to control the senjutsu chakra, even if that took less effort than what he originally assumed. Also i believe once the initial control is gained the chakra remains stable, but as we all know senjutsu chakra doesn't renew itself so for sages, there is no chakra source, they have to take the energy from outside sources and balance it with their own. If Madara hadn't gain control over the chakra, he'd turn into an animal like the Preta Path when he absorbed Naruto's chakra. And it was defined in the article that control (even if imperfect) over senjutsu chakra is what makes a sage. Also the Kurama comparison doesn't really fit here sempai, since we are talking about two very different types of chakra. Graft or no graft, that face is a part of Madara's body, thus its part of Madara himself and as such anything derived from it is Madara's own at this point.
- But there's something that has never been clarified: does senjutsu chakra require active balancing once it is made? I mean, do you have to keep balancing the spiritual, physical and natural energies once the senjutsu chakra is made, or once made in the perfect ratio, the chakra is stable? I also find it very odd that it was only the Hashirama face that got the markings, and that Madara himself didn't get them. And I repeat, Madara himself has not made the chakra as far as we know. We don't list every shinobi Naruto gave Kurama's chakra a host, because the source of the chakra is not in them. Madara may have a Hashirama graft, but the graft was not the source of the chakra he is using. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:40, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- Hello sempai. In regards to Madara i would have to disagree a bit...in an earlier chapter, he said he was going to take Hashi' senjutsu powers in chapter 647. Now in this one Madara says how the power of the senjutsu chakra was dissapointing and he believed it would be harder to control it. Not only that, but we say the perfect Sage pattern appear in Madara's chest face. Also we know that if unless senjutsu chakra can be balanced, the user will display animal traits and eventually turn into an animal statue. Being a sage is being one who can balance and control senjutsu chakra within himself. From where i see it, Madara simply took a shortcut to attain the same result. Darksusanoo (talk) 00:51, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- I think the situation is a bit subtler than that. With Wood Release, all Madara needed was a physical piece of Hashirama to be grafted in his body. For Sage Mode, even though he already had the physical implant, he had to go to Hashirama. He drained Hashirama of his senjutsu chakra (which I find very odd, since I don't recall Hashirama being in Sage Mode the last few chapters). He didn't make the senjutsu chakra himself (as far as we know), we don't even know if Madara knows the mechanics of how senjutsu chakra comes to be (though I believe he does). We don't consider people Naruto gave tailed beast chakra to be jinchūriki, so I don't think Madara should be considered a Sage Mode user, even if he's using the senjutsu chakra. The whole situation is murky. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:45, December 4, 2013 (UTC)
The Preta Path case isn't the best example, since the zoom in Naruto when he opened his eyes sort of implied he himself introduced an imbalance in the senjutsu chakra while it was being absorbed. And it's not the senjutsu chakra per se that transforms one into an animal and then a statue, it's the overwhelming natural energy that does if you can't control its flow. Regarding sensing, Madara has been noted a sensor for a while now, and not due to his eyes. I goes back to at least when he first detected Hashirama's and made that psycho face. He's been listed as a sensor at least since then. Kabuto wasn't exactly blind. His brille made a filter to his eyes, you could still see the snake pupils behind them when they were lowered. Base Madara already had sensing. If anything, I'd say that the sage chakra is boosting an ability he already had. This is similar to Orochimaru's case. We know Oro's cursed seals contain his senjutsu chakra, but those who use his cursed seals are not Sage Mode users. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:13, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- If Naruto had introduced the imbalance, the perfect sage pattern wouldn't have appeared on his face...it would look like Jiraiya's pattern if anything and in no way was it implied that Naruto gave the Preta Path imbalanced chakra...if anything he overloaded him with senjutsu chakra to turn him into a statue, but the statue turned into stone because it couldn't handle the senjutsu chakra. Yes Madara is a sensor, but to the degree of compensating the loss of his dojutsu, a major pillar in the Uchiha's fighting style? Kabuto did blind himself...he said at least once or twice to Itachi that he had cut off his eyesight to prevent eye based genjutsu. Why are you bringing Oro's cursed seals, when we know those were derived from Jugo's KKG...which is a different thing...however Madara did display the pattern signs of perfect sage control and remarked that he had to exert control over the chakra...all traits of a sage. Darksusanoo (talk) 02:23, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- The focus on Naruto only happened when the shading around his eyes was all but over. Introducing an imbalance in the chakra would have snowballed in the Preta Path, leading to the petrification. Regarding Madara's sensing, what I'm saying is that even if he is using sage chakra, he's not using Sage Mode itself. I brought Orochimaru up because despite the cursed seals coming from Jūgo, the explicitly say that the cursed seals contain Orochimaru's senjutsu chakra. It's in the pages that show Orochimaru taking back his chakra from Kabuto. I still don't see pigmentation around Madara's own eyes, which according to Fukasaku are the sign of a true sage. Madara essentially took sage chakra someone else had a put in a graft battery. I'm saying that Madara is a similar situation to Orochimaru in which one has senjutsu chakra, but not Sage Mode itself. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:13, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- People keep saying that Hashi's face is a graft. Has no one ever assumed it was a mutation caused by the introduction of the First's Dna into one's body? Madara himself said that he infused the DNA into his wounds. So that's not a graft, its a mutation side effect, he didn't build and plaster a second Hashi face into his body, neither did Danzo. Its like having an extra limb...just because it's extra, what's done with it is still yours, your doing, possession and responsability. Also wasn't a similar discussion brought up, when someone wanted to separate senjutsu from sage mode? Wasn't it concluded that excluding Jugo/Oro's seals due to them being KKG-bound, that regular individuals were required to enter Sage Mode in order to use senjutsu. So unless you wanna unleash that box of scorpions again. The sage pattern appeared in Madara's face, in this case his second face...and even if he did what you say he did sempai, he's still a sage at this point, since he still had to balance and control the senjutsu chakra he took in without the aid of a KKG...it maybe an atypical case, but the traits exibited by Madara are more aligned with Sage Mode than Sage/Cursed Seal Transformation.Darksusanoo (talk) 03:29, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- The focus on Naruto only happened when the shading around his eyes was all but over. Introducing an imbalance in the chakra would have snowballed in the Preta Path, leading to the petrification. Regarding Madara's sensing, what I'm saying is that even if he is using sage chakra, he's not using Sage Mode itself. I brought Orochimaru up because despite the cursed seals coming from Jūgo, the explicitly say that the cursed seals contain Orochimaru's senjutsu chakra. It's in the pages that show Orochimaru taking back his chakra from Kabuto. I still don't see pigmentation around Madara's own eyes, which according to Fukasaku are the sign of a true sage. Madara essentially took sage chakra someone else had a put in a graft battery. I'm saying that Madara is a similar situation to Orochimaru in which one has senjutsu chakra, but not Sage Mode itself. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:13, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- Madara is not using Sage Mode. He stole Hashirama's chakra and is using his "Hashirama face", if you will, to use Hashirama's Sage Mode. Therefore he is not a user. All this about him "controlling the chakra" is irrelevant and seems to be nothing more than a desperate attempt to list him as a user. It is A) Not his Senjutsu chakra, B) Not his Sage Mode, and C) Not his own body controlling it, but the "Hashirama face" doing it for him. He should not be listed whatsoever until he is shown using it on his own. Its absolutely no different that Kakashi and the other shinobi using Naruto's Kyūbi chakra after he gave it to them. ~ Ten Tailed Fox
04:08, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- So by that standart, please remove him (and everyone who's not Hashirama) as a Wood Release user, since he can only use it because of the "Hashirama face". Sure just toss aside one of the main pillars of sage mode/senjutsu, which is actually managing to not get turned into an animal statue, that makes perfect sense. "Not his own body controlling it"? Last time i checked...Hashi's face isn't detachable from Madara's body like a Lego piece, nor is it a tool of any kind, but a mutation caused by the integration of the First's DNA...Madara may be using Hashi's face, but that face is a part of Madara's body now, like anyother of his limbs so you saying he's using the face is like saying he's using the left arm instead of the right to swing a blade...its all part of his body...not originally sure, but it is now...that's like saying that a person who has an extra limb isn't responsible/can't control what that extra limb does...Darksusanoo (talk) 04:29, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- The precedent Kabuto created with his chest snake means that if you are in control of some freaky growth that can use some other technique, you are using that technique. So yeah, lets not try and think to stupid on this one. Madara is using Hashirama's Sage Mode, he gets listed as using Sage Mode.--TheUltimate3
(talk) 04:34, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- The precedent Kabuto created with his chest snake means that if you are in control of some freaky growth that can use some other technique, you are using that technique. So yeah, lets not try and think to stupid on this one. Madara is using Hashirama's Sage Mode, he gets listed as using Sage Mode.--TheUltimate3
- No disrespect intended when I say this, but that has to be the most asinine reasoning for listing someone as a user I've ever heard. With Wood Release and Kabuto's snake... thing, the genetics of the person using the technique were apart of their new user; Wood Release in Danzo, Obito, Yamato, etc., and the Sound Four's in Kabuto. We saw him injecting the blood. Madara cannot use Sage Mode. He didn't absorb natural energy from the air and mix it with his chakra to make Senjutsu chakra, he stole the Senjutsu chakra Hashirama already had and used it through HASHIRMA's body parts that had been grafted into him. How the hell is that, in the sweet name of the baby Jesus, usage of Sage Mode? ~ Ten Tailed Fox
06:58, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- No disrespect intended when I say this, but that has to be the most asinine reasoning for listing someone as a user I've ever heard. With Wood Release and Kabuto's snake... thing, the genetics of the person using the technique were apart of their new user; Wood Release in Danzo, Obito, Yamato, etc., and the Sound Four's in Kabuto. We saw him injecting the blood. Madara cannot use Sage Mode. He didn't absorb natural energy from the air and mix it with his chakra to make Senjutsu chakra, he stole the Senjutsu chakra Hashirama already had and used it through HASHIRMA's body parts that had been grafted into him. How the hell is that, in the sweet name of the baby Jesus, usage of Sage Mode? ~ Ten Tailed Fox
@Dark, to clarify, the Hash-chest-face is Kabuto's work as confirmed in the latest chapter, it didn't happen to Madara as he had gotten Hash's cells at all, just white skin. For the Sage Mode, yes, he is a user I believe, but if he should be listed as a Sage is questionable. As stated, it's the Hash-chest-face that has gotten the facial markings, not his own. And THIS IS EXACTLY why I brought up a while ago a forum about us listing users having KKG powers or otherwise as either them being temporary (transplant/experiment) or permanent (blood trait). So what does that tell us, true, he is no less user of Sage Mode now than Danzo was of Wood Release. Even tho he can do it only thanks to a foreign matter attached to his body, he had to control it and managed to and as such is a user. But a Sage has to be able to sense, absorb and balance natural energy himself, which he hasn't done. So short story: user of sage mode- yes but not a sage, reverse case of Orochimaru.--Elveonora (talk) 13:17, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- Mhm. The Spoken word. Glad to see you editing again Elveo. Sorry to just jump into this discussion. But i agree.--KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 14:37, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- Mhm. The Spoken word. Glad to see you editing again Elveo. Sorry to just jump into this discussion. But i agree.--
- Asinine it may be Ten Tailed Fox, but it is what it is. He has a freaky construct of Hashirama's face on his chest, he absorbed Hashirama's senjutsu chakra and is able to manipulate it under his own will. He himself may not be in Sage Mode, but he is using it. Unlike Danzo, Madara is in control of his stolen ability, Danzo was not. WHen he got messed up the Wood Release ran wild.
- That being said, he is not a sage because he didn't actively learn the art of senjutsu he just sucked it out of one person.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 16:18, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- I know he's not a Sage, but he doesn't even seem to be in the least bit familiar with Senjutsu chakra. "So this is the coveted Senjutsu chakra." Doesn't say to me he even knows what he's doing. I mean, its like Omnibender said. Naruto gave everyone in the Alliance Kurama's chakra. Shoot, the Rookies even used a Tailed Beast Mode cloak. We're not listing them as psuedo-jinchūriki because they controlled that chakra, did we? No. Its no different here. I just don't like the faulty, paper-thin layer of logic that some seem to be using as an excuse to list him as a Sage Mode user. He's not. But, if that ends up being the consensus, I won't fight it. Just seems like a really big mistake to me. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 16:30, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- I know he's not a Sage, but he doesn't even seem to be in the least bit familiar with Senjutsu chakra. "So this is the coveted Senjutsu chakra." Doesn't say to me he even knows what he's doing. I mean, its like Omnibender said. Naruto gave everyone in the Alliance Kurama's chakra. Shoot, the Rookies even used a Tailed Beast Mode cloak. We're not listing them as psuedo-jinchūriki because they controlled that chakra, did we? No. Its no different here. I just don't like the faulty, paper-thin layer of logic that some seem to be using as an excuse to list him as a Sage Mode user. He's not. But, if that ends up being the consensus, I won't fight it. Just seems like a really big mistake to me. ~ Ten Tailed Fox
TU3, what does Kabuto's navel snake have anything to do with this? The snake was never implicated in his use of Sage Mode, only in the skills he acquired from Orochimaru. He already had the snake while not in Sage Mode. The thing that sets Madara apart in this case, is that this isn't simply a case of grabbing a physical part of a third party and having access to its abilities. Madara already had the Hashigraft, and yet he had to go grab the senjutsu chakra from Hashirama himself. If he's at least aware of how senjutsu works, he'd certainly Gary Stu his way into mastering the whole process in half a heartbeat, like the overachiever he is, making the whole theft of the chakra pointless. Another example of non-use of technique, is Rasengan. Rookie 9 each took a Rasengan and slammed Obito with it, but we don't list them as users. Madara is the same thing. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:51, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
Should it not be noted that Hashirama's SM increases regeneration? As Madara's wound from Sasuke's 'Kusanagi' explicitly healed up within a very short time after adopting the pseudo-SM. Maybe this is what Madara was referring to about Hashirama's Byakugou-esque healing? Pesa123456789 (talk) 19:25, December 8, 2013 (UTC)
Hash cells in themselves heal and shi* as shown with Obito, nothing with senjutsu. But I thought what healed Madara was QB chakra anyway--Elveonora (talk) 22:03, December 8, 2013 (UTC)
- By the Light this is still going?
- The snake has nothing to do with Sage Mode. I was pointing out that Kabuto pulled out Orochimaru and the Sound Five from the naval snake and we count him as having used their techniques and their kekkei genkai. Ergo, Madara pulling out Sage Mode and putting it into his Hashichestface and as he said he can manipulate it to mean means, unless we just decide to say "eff it" and decided just because all hate Madara that he isn't using Sage Mode, he is using Sage Mode.
- And I thought i brought up the Rookie 9 thing. The Rookie Nine actually didn't do a damn thing. They jumped into Naruto's chakra, Naruto formed the Rasengans and all his friends did was push. They ain't manipulate nothing. It was the same thing when Naruto pushed Killer B's tailed beast ball through 30 barriers.
- Now that being said, I'm already bored witht his discussion. If we want to say Madara is not using Sage Mode then I'm willing to just call everyone out for bullcrap but let it be removed without a fuss anyway so long as we also take into account Kabuto's actions with his weird body modifications.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 02:37, December 9, 2013 (UTC)
But the difference with Kabuto is that all those techniques, implants or not, originated within him, in his body. Madara already had the Hashirama face in him, and even them he had to go take the senjutsu chakra. That is what I think constitutes the Orochimaru-like situation of using senjutsu chakra, without actually using Sage Mode. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:12, December 10, 2013 (UTC)
Questionable Content
For some time now, the article has been broken up into sections more or less stating that there are different Sage Modes. In the past I've questioned the source of this, and I never felt I was given adequate justification, and certainly not in the vein that is usually demanded on the wiki. There seems to be zero mention in the manga by ANY practitioner of Sage Mode that what Hashirama and Kabuto do is any different, in terms of the basal technique, to what Naruto does. Now, one thing offered up is that Kabuto and Hashirama have different designs around their eyes, and that Fukasaku noted that Naruto had the eye designs of a true sage. Well, that's not accurate actually. All Fuksasaku said (Ch. 418 pg. 5) is that the dark pigmentation around the eyes are the mark of a true Sage, he never made mention or note of it being specifically a mark of a Toad Sage, or anything else, just that of one who has perfected Sage Mode. And given both Hashi and Kabuto fit that description, and made no mention of using some specific brand of SM, I'd put in my suggestion that the article be fixed to remove a lot of unfounded assumptions one must make for it to make sense. Thoughts? Skitts (talk) 07:29, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
- At the very least, it could be separated by user, so we could say "Naruto Uzumaki's Sage Mode" or "Kabuto Yakushi's Sage Mode" instead of made-up names like Toad Sage Mode and Snake Sage Mode which imply different types. The current implication that each version has different strengths and weaknesses also seems unnecessary. Stating things like Kabuto's and Hashirama's not having enhanced durability because Sasuke's sword could cut them seems like a big assumption; Pain's rods could pierce Naruto after all.--BeyondRed (talk) 07:39, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
- I really don't understand how there can be different sage modes. The sage mode is simply the state of ones body when it absorbed natural energy. There are no different kinds of natural energy one can absorb and we don't have the slightest explanation for why the absorbtion of the same energy results in different looks. So yes, I agree with Beyond, we should differ by user, not by looks. Seelentau 愛議 09:34, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
- Agreed Seelentau. It is just balancing natural energy with one's own inner energies after all. I think one thing we might do is simply mention that all known perfect sages (among humans anyway) had different designs around and on the eyes, but they all possessed the distinctive mark of a perfect Sage that Fukasaku mentioned. It avoids all extra assumptions but mentions how each user differs aethestically. But should we split it by user? I can't really think of anything in particular that Kabuto or Hashirama did with the form itself that was noticeably different from Naruto. They each just seemed to power-up their techniques. Suggestions? Skitts (talk) 13:44, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
- Agreed Seelentau. It is just balancing natural energy with one's own inner energies after all. I think one thing we might do is simply mention that all known perfect sages (among humans anyway) had different designs around and on the eyes, but they all possessed the distinctive mark of a perfect Sage that Fukasaku mentioned. It avoids all extra assumptions but mentions how each user differs aethestically. But should we split it by user? I can't really think of anything in particular that Kabuto or Hashirama did with the form itself that was noticeably different from Naruto. They each just seemed to power-up their techniques. Suggestions? Skitts (talk) 13:44, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Hey Skitts long time no see, I was wondering where you have gone to ^_ And yes, thank you for bringing up again one of my favorite unresolved and ignored topics!!! Now, all we have to do is await for naysayers and unnamed sysops to come and paste a giant red NO on our foreheads to prove their might and ignorance. I'm not having anyone specific in particular on my mind of course :D Just generally speaking about those who disagree. And yes, there should be a single section listing all the benefits of Sage Mode, not for "different" modeS since there are none other and a removal of the animal labels as well. There is just this weird phenomenon for those who were taught by snakes turn into snakes, those that by toads into toads etc. so there's where the assumptions of different modes come from--Elveonora (talk) 13:50, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
- Hey. Real life (school and work), hobbies and forgetfulness kept me away. I still checked in every so often, just never got involved. xD Anyway, I'd question whether individuals who were taught by snakes would turn into snakes. We've never seen Kabuto loose control of natural energy, so the safest assumption is that he would turn into a toad as Naruto nearly did and the Preta Path actually did. Kabuto was already a snake, after all. :) Sage Mode just seemed to enhance his snake-related abilities, which is unsurprising given Fukasaku mentioned one's abilities are increased by it (ex: Naruto's healing rate and stamina). Skitts (talk) 14:45, January 13, 2014 (UTC)