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Madara
He basically just stole it from Hashirama, but he also stated that he managed to master it very quickly, so he should be listed as a user, right? Norleon (talk) 12:49, December 4, 2013 (UTC)
- I think it is the same with his Wood Release. It doesn't matter if the ability was stolen or acquired through body modifications, if he is using it, then he is an user. Shadow Abyss (talk) 13:27, December 4, 2013 (UTC)
- I think the situation is a bit subtler than that. With Wood Release, all Madara needed was a physical piece of Hashirama to be grafted in his body. For Sage Mode, even though he already had the physical implant, he had to go to Hashirama. He drained Hashirama of his senjutsu chakra (which I find very odd, since I don't recall Hashirama being in Sage Mode the last few chapters). He didn't make the senjutsu chakra himself (as far as we know), we don't even know if Madara knows the mechanics of how senjutsu chakra comes to be (though I believe he does). We don't consider people Naruto gave tailed beast chakra to be jinchūriki, so I don't think Madara should be considered a Sage Mode user, even if he's using the senjutsu chakra. The whole situation is murky. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:45, December 4, 2013 (UTC)
- Hello sempai. In regards to Madara i would have to disagree a bit...in an earlier chapter, he said he was going to take Hashi' senjutsu powers in chapter 647. Now in this one Madara says how the power of the senjutsu chakra was dissapointing and he believed it would be harder to control it. Not only that, but we say the perfect Sage pattern appear in Madara's chest face. Also we know that if unless senjutsu chakra can be balanced, the user will display animal traits and eventually turn into an animal statue. Being a sage is being one who can balance and control senjutsu chakra within himself. From where i see it, Madara simply took a shortcut to attain the same result. Darksusanoo (talk) 00:51, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- But there's something that has never been clarified: does senjutsu chakra require active balancing once it is made? I mean, do you have to keep balancing the spiritual, physical and natural energies once the senjutsu chakra is made, or once made in the perfect ratio, the chakra is stable? I also find it very odd that it was only the Hashirama face that got the markings, and that Madara himself didn't get them. And I repeat, Madara himself has not made the chakra as far as we know. We don't list every shinobi Naruto gave Kurama's chakra a host, because the source of the chakra is not in them. Madara may have a Hashirama graft, but the graft was not the source of the chakra he is using. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:40, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- But as Madara said, he did had to control the senjutsu chakra, even if that took less effort than what he originally assumed. Also i believe once the initial control is gained the chakra remains stable, but as we all know senjutsu chakra doesn't renew itself so for sages, there is no chakra source, they have to take the energy from outside sources and balance it with their own. If Madara hadn't gain control over the chakra, he'd turn into an animal like the Preta Path when he absorbed Naruto's chakra. And it was defined in the article that control (even if imperfect) over senjutsu chakra is what makes a sage. Also the Kurama comparison doesn't really fit here sempai, since we are talking about two very different types of chakra. Graft or no graft, that face is a part of Madara's body, thus its part of Madara himself and as such anything derived from it is Madara's own at this point.
- Another little side detail to add to this is Madara's insane sensing prowess after his revival. Given how Uchiha senses are restricted to visual/dojutsu ones and how once that is lost, their battle prowess takes a nosedive. (Izuna's death and Madara's final defeat against Hashi comes to mind.) I ask...how did Madara managed to dance around a Sharingan/sword master's attack, sense the peculiar traits of Sasuke's Sharingan, all while being effectively blind? The only type of sensing prowess this strong is that of a sage...remember Kabuto vs Sasuke and Itachi? Kabuto was also blind to prevent genjutsu and still outfought the brothers due his sensing in Sage Mode. Darksusanoo (talk) 01:57, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- But as Madara said, he did had to control the senjutsu chakra, even if that took less effort than what he originally assumed. Also i believe once the initial control is gained the chakra remains stable, but as we all know senjutsu chakra doesn't renew itself so for sages, there is no chakra source, they have to take the energy from outside sources and balance it with their own. If Madara hadn't gain control over the chakra, he'd turn into an animal like the Preta Path when he absorbed Naruto's chakra. And it was defined in the article that control (even if imperfect) over senjutsu chakra is what makes a sage. Also the Kurama comparison doesn't really fit here sempai, since we are talking about two very different types of chakra. Graft or no graft, that face is a part of Madara's body, thus its part of Madara himself and as such anything derived from it is Madara's own at this point.
- But there's something that has never been clarified: does senjutsu chakra require active balancing once it is made? I mean, do you have to keep balancing the spiritual, physical and natural energies once the senjutsu chakra is made, or once made in the perfect ratio, the chakra is stable? I also find it very odd that it was only the Hashirama face that got the markings, and that Madara himself didn't get them. And I repeat, Madara himself has not made the chakra as far as we know. We don't list every shinobi Naruto gave Kurama's chakra a host, because the source of the chakra is not in them. Madara may have a Hashirama graft, but the graft was not the source of the chakra he is using. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:40, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- Hello sempai. In regards to Madara i would have to disagree a bit...in an earlier chapter, he said he was going to take Hashi' senjutsu powers in chapter 647. Now in this one Madara says how the power of the senjutsu chakra was dissapointing and he believed it would be harder to control it. Not only that, but we say the perfect Sage pattern appear in Madara's chest face. Also we know that if unless senjutsu chakra can be balanced, the user will display animal traits and eventually turn into an animal statue. Being a sage is being one who can balance and control senjutsu chakra within himself. From where i see it, Madara simply took a shortcut to attain the same result. Darksusanoo (talk) 00:51, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- I think the situation is a bit subtler than that. With Wood Release, all Madara needed was a physical piece of Hashirama to be grafted in his body. For Sage Mode, even though he already had the physical implant, he had to go to Hashirama. He drained Hashirama of his senjutsu chakra (which I find very odd, since I don't recall Hashirama being in Sage Mode the last few chapters). He didn't make the senjutsu chakra himself (as far as we know), we don't even know if Madara knows the mechanics of how senjutsu chakra comes to be (though I believe he does). We don't consider people Naruto gave tailed beast chakra to be jinchūriki, so I don't think Madara should be considered a Sage Mode user, even if he's using the senjutsu chakra. The whole situation is murky. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:45, December 4, 2013 (UTC)
The Preta Path case isn't the best example, since the zoom in Naruto when he opened his eyes sort of implied he himself introduced an imbalance in the senjutsu chakra while it was being absorbed. And it's not the senjutsu chakra per se that transforms one into an animal and then a statue, it's the overwhelming natural energy that does if you can't control its flow. Regarding sensing, Madara has been noted a sensor for a while now, and not due to his eyes. I goes back to at least when he first detected Hashirama's and made that psycho face. He's been listed as a sensor at least since then. Kabuto wasn't exactly blind. His brille made a filter to his eyes, you could still see the snake pupils behind them when they were lowered. Base Madara already had sensing. If anything, I'd say that the sage chakra is boosting an ability he already had. This is similar to Orochimaru's case. We know Oro's cursed seals contain his senjutsu chakra, but those who use his cursed seals are not Sage Mode users. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:13, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- If Naruto had introduced the imbalance, the perfect sage pattern wouldn't have appeared on his face...it would look like Jiraiya's pattern if anything and in no way was it implied that Naruto gave the Preta Path imbalanced chakra...if anything he overloaded him with senjutsu chakra to turn him into a statue, but the statue turned into stone because it couldn't handle the senjutsu chakra. Yes Madara is a sensor, but to the degree of compensating the loss of his dojutsu, a major pillar in the Uchiha's fighting style? Kabuto did blind himself...he said at least once or twice to Itachi that he had cut off his eyesight to prevent eye based genjutsu. Why are you bringing Oro's cursed seals, when we know those were derived from Jugo's KKG...which is a different thing...however Madara did display the pattern signs of perfect sage control and remarked that he had to exert control over the chakra...all traits of a sage. Darksusanoo (talk) 02:23, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- The focus on Naruto only happened when the shading around his eyes was all but over. Introducing an imbalance in the chakra would have snowballed in the Preta Path, leading to the petrification. Regarding Madara's sensing, what I'm saying is that even if he is using sage chakra, he's not using Sage Mode itself. I brought Orochimaru up because despite the cursed seals coming from Jūgo, the explicitly say that the cursed seals contain Orochimaru's senjutsu chakra. It's in the pages that show Orochimaru taking back his chakra from Kabuto. I still don't see pigmentation around Madara's own eyes, which according to Fukasaku are the sign of a true sage. Madara essentially took sage chakra someone else had a put in a graft battery. I'm saying that Madara is a similar situation to Orochimaru in which one has senjutsu chakra, but not Sage Mode itself. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:13, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- People keep saying that Hashi's face is a graft. Has no one ever assumed it was a mutation caused by the introduction of the First's Dna into one's body? Madara himself said that he infused the DNA into his wounds. So that's not a graft, its a mutation side effect, he didn't build and plaster a second Hashi face into his body, neither did Danzo. Its like having an extra limb...just because it's extra, what's done with it is still yours, your doing, possession and responsability. Also wasn't a similar discussion brought up, when someone wanted to separate senjutsu from sage mode? Wasn't it concluded that excluding Jugo/Oro's seals due to them being KKG-bound, that regular individuals were required to enter Sage Mode in order to use senjutsu. So unless you wanna unleash that box of scorpions again. The sage pattern appeared in Madara's face, in this case his second face...and even if he did what you say he did sempai, he's still a sage at this point, since he still had to balance and control the senjutsu chakra he took in without the aid of a KKG...it maybe an atypical case, but the traits exibited by Madara are more aligned with Sage Mode than Sage/Cursed Seal Transformation.Darksusanoo (talk) 03:29, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- The focus on Naruto only happened when the shading around his eyes was all but over. Introducing an imbalance in the chakra would have snowballed in the Preta Path, leading to the petrification. Regarding Madara's sensing, what I'm saying is that even if he is using sage chakra, he's not using Sage Mode itself. I brought Orochimaru up because despite the cursed seals coming from Jūgo, the explicitly say that the cursed seals contain Orochimaru's senjutsu chakra. It's in the pages that show Orochimaru taking back his chakra from Kabuto. I still don't see pigmentation around Madara's own eyes, which according to Fukasaku are the sign of a true sage. Madara essentially took sage chakra someone else had a put in a graft battery. I'm saying that Madara is a similar situation to Orochimaru in which one has senjutsu chakra, but not Sage Mode itself. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:13, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- Madara is not using Sage Mode. He stole Hashirama's chakra and is using his "Hashirama face", if you will, to use Hashirama's Sage Mode. Therefore he is not a user. All this about him "controlling the chakra" is irrelevant and seems to be nothing more than a desperate attempt to list him as a user. It is A) Not his Senjutsu chakra, B) Not his Sage Mode, and C) Not his own body controlling it, but the "Hashirama face" doing it for him. He should not be listed whatsoever until he is shown using it on his own. Its absolutely no different that Kakashi and the other shinobi using Naruto's Kyūbi chakra after he gave it to them. ~ Ten Tailed Fox
04:08, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
- So by that standart, please remove him (and everyone who's not Hashirama) as a Wood Release user, since he can only use it because of the "Hashirama face". Sure just toss aside one of the main pillars of sage mode/senjutsu, which is actually managing to not get turned into an animal statue, that makes perfect sense. "Not his own body controlling it"? Last time i checked...Hashi's face isn't detachable from Madara's body like a Lego piece, nor is it a tool of any kind, but a mutation caused by the integration of the First's DNA...Madara may be using Hashi's face, but that face is a part of Madara's body now, like anyother of his limbs so you saying he's using the face is like saying he's using the left arm instead of the right to swing a blade...its all part of his body...not originally sure, but it is now...that's like saying that a person who has an extra limb isn't responsible/can't control what that extra limb does...Darksusanoo (talk) 04:29, December 5, 2013 (UTC)