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Structure of the article
If you look at Kabuto's Sage Mode, it's impossible to distinguish between:
- the actual Snake Sage Mode
- Juugo's abilities
- Orochimaru's abilities
- Suigetsu's abilities
- Karin's abilities
Kabuto's sensing prowess is a combination of Sage Mode and Karin's abilities. Kabuto's healing is a combination of Orochimaru's and Karin's abilities. The ability to change your body exists with Juugo's, Orochimaru's, and Suigetsu's abilities. The way Kabuto looks is a combination of Sage Mode, Juugo's DNA and Orochimaru's DNA.
Given all that, wouldn't it be a much better idea to get rid of the heading "Snake Sage Mode" and use the heading "Kabuto's Sage Mode"? You could even extend it to the whole article:
- General description of Sage Mode
- Description of Jiraiya's Sage Mode
- Description of Naruto's Sage Mode
- Description of Kabuto's Sage Mode
It would also make it easier to turn the lists in this article into proper paragraphs.--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 18:09, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
As of my topic above, I disagree completely with the article the way it is now. Also Kabuto's sensing prowess being partially from Karin? Now then, that's a speculation. The way I get it, the only reason why Kabuto has physically changed is due to Orochimaru's DNA + Sage Transformation. And again, both Sage Modes grant equal advantages, there are no such things as "toad sm" and "snake sm" mentioned in the series--Elveonora (talk) 20:59, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
- I saw your topic. We both agree that the article in its current state is bad. We agree that there is no such thing as Snake Sage Mode. And I think you agree with the structure I proposed, because you mentioned something similar.
- About Karin. We know that Karin is good at sensing. We know that Kabuto has Karin's DNA. We don't know whether that influences Kabuto's sensing prowess in Sage Mode. It's just an argument against calling it Snake Sage Mode, and in favour of calling it Kabuto's Sage Mode.
- The article in its current form has 12 section headings for the main content! It has general information listed under Toad Sage Mode. It has irrelevant information listed in the usage section. It might as well not have an introduction. It mentions advantages in three sections. It mentions disadvantages for Toad Sage Mode that are actually disadvantages for everyone. It's a mess.
- It also ignores that we have essentially seen 4 different versions of Sage Mode. The basic one is the one we see when Fukasaku trains Naruto in Frog Kata, and has the disadvantage that you run out of sage chakra. That problem can be solved by fusing with Fukasaku and Shima as we've seen with Jiraiya (the 2nd version of Sage Mode). Naruto solves the problem with Shadow Clones, making it the 3rd version. Kabuto solves it with Juugo's DNA, making it the 4th version. But wouldn't guess that from the way the article is written.--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 22:05, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
- That is incorrect. You're looking at Sage Mode as changing to a different version based on how it's used, but that's not right. We don't know about the Snake version of Sage Mode, , imperfect and perfect. Ma and Pa on your shoulders is just them using Amphibian Sage Technique to sit on their shoulder. That is not a different version of Sage Mode.
- Also, having subsections is not a problem. We are an encyclopedia, we chronicle information. If that information requires heading sections, then it gets heading sections.--TheUltimate3 ^{(talk)} 16:17, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
- What Fukasaku explains about Sage Mode; what the difference is between perfect sage mode and imperfect sage mode; it's all applicable to Snake Sage Mode, because we haven't been told otherwise. They're all simply Sage Mode. Kabuto uses the benefits of Sage Transformation to overcome the same problem for which Naruto used Shadow Clones.
- Sage Mode on its own is only useful if you want to rearrange the stone statues of toads. Or if you can prepare Sage Mode in advance; ambush your enemy; and defeat him quickly before you run out of Sage Chakra. So yes, Sage Mode+Amphibian Sage Technique is a different version of Sage Mode, because it's far more practical than Sage Mode on its own. Without solutions like Amphibian Sage Technique, Shadow Clones and Sage transformation, all that's left of Sage Mode is an incomplete technique. So it's not just different uses; it's an incomplete technique with 3 different ways to make it complete.
- So you're saying that heading sections like "advantages" and "disadvantages" are required? You're saying that headings that use the phrase "Snake Sage Mode" are required; even though that's not canon? You're reply ignores the basic fact that sections shouldn't be used if you only have one paragraph of information.
- In the end this article shows that you can't keep adding information to it and hope it remains making sense. Sometimes you have to reorganise the information.--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 20:19, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
- Mistake number 1: Assuming things are the same when we are not told otherwise. We don't assume when we aren't told.
- Mistake number 2: No, Sage Mode + Amphibian Sage Technique is not another version of Sage Mode. It's Sage Mode with two old toads merged to your shoulder. Naruto could go Sage Mode perfectly well by remaining still and gathering natural energy. The entire point of the two toads was so one can do so in combat. Naruto has gone into Sage Mode on and off perfectly multiple times during the war without the need of a clone (or just a clone of him do it instead of his actual body), still perfect Sage Mode.
- Clarification number 1: If they are required, then yes. They could also be moved into paragraph format, but I feel it's easier to have them in a listed format, that way one wants to know what the disadvantages of Sage Mode is, one just has to go to the article, click the header for disadvantages, and wow look there it is.
- In the end, the issue I'm having is your belief that there are random versions of Sage Mode when, as of now, we are aware of there only being two and that's the difference between Toad and Snake. Yes, while the name may not be canon, the fact that a perfect Snake Sage has different properties than a Toad Sage is notable (Naruto is a perfect Toad Sage, the only differences is the pigment around his eyes. Meanwhile Kabuto is a perfect Snake Sage, and he gained a lot of snake features.)--TheUltimate3 ^{(talk)} 20:42, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
@Ultimate, those are physical/visual differences, there are none in benefits. Also the former might be only due to sage transformation/jugo's dna/orochimaru's dna and not a common result--Elveonora (talk) 21:10, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
@TheUltimate3
Mistake 1 = Assuming things are different when we have no information that says otherwise. Which means we can only look at what the manga has given us, and that's ONE Sage Mode.
Mistake 2 = The whole point of Sage Mode is that it's useless in combat UNLESS
- you arrive at the battle already in Sage Mode (like Naruto did against Pain); or
- you manage to buy yourself some time to get into Sage Mode (like the clumsy toad did for Jiraiya; like the Alliance did for Naruto; and which Kurama's Chakra Cloak did for Naruto)
and even then you have to make sure that:
- you either beat your opponent before you drop out of Sage Mode; or
- you find a solution to the problem that you can't gather natural energy while moving.
Buying the time to get into Sage Mode is the easy problem. Trying to maintain Sage Mode is the difficult problem, and without a solution it's useless for combat purposes.
Mistake 3 = If you want to see Sage Mode as nothing more than gathering natural energy and mixing it to create Sage Chakra which would lead to Sage Mode, than the article shouldn't need any of the other information. You could pretty much copy and past Fukasaku's explanation to Naruto into this article and lock the page. All the other information should then be moved to the appropriate character pages. If you're going to argue a certain position, at least draw the logical conclusion from it.
Clarification number 1 = We are aware of 3 schools of teaching; 3 schools that teach Sage Mode. We now know that the Toads teach Sage Mode and that the Snakes teach Sage Mode. We were never told that these were *different* Sage Modes. The only thing they might teach different are the ways to use Sage Mode, and their preferred solutions to some of the problems associated with Sage Mode.
Clarification number 2 = We haven't been shown what the Snakes teach. We don't even know how a person that has been taught Sage Mode by the Snakes looks like. What we have seen is the end result of: (a) the Sage Mode as taught by the Snakes; and (b) a shitload of DNA modifications done by Kabuto himself. In fact, Kabuto's Sage Mode could be seen as a hybrid of Sage Mode and Sage Transformation with no answers to questions like: (i) What are the benefits of that combination?; (ii) What are the drawbacks of that combination?; and (iii) How would such a combination change the looks of someone in Sage Mode as taught by the Snakes?.
In the end Kabuto's Sage Mode is exactly the same as Sage Mode+Amphibian Sage Technique but with the added problem that we can't distinguish between the two. You're drawing the illogical conclusion that one is a different version of Sage Mode while the other is not, based on the same facts and using the same arguments. The only thing we know for sure is that perfect sage mode taught by the Snakes will lead to a different pigmentation around the eyes, though we don't know why and how the pigmentation becomes different. We haven't been told that Sage Mode taught by the Snakes will lead to different properties (e.g. speed and strength) in Sage Mode.
What we disagree about is basically this:
- Sage Mode = impractical Sage Mode as Fukasaku taught it to Naruto before trying the Amphibian Sage Technique and failing
- Sage Mode = impractical Sage Mode plus ways to make Sage Mode usable
Either way, the article needs rewriting to make it clear.--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 23:31, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
I almost completely agree with you, I'd rewrite the article myself, but I don't want to start an edit war. The way it's now is not only incorrect but confusing/misleading.--Elveonora (talk) 01:25, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
- Wait for others to chime in on opinions and thoughts. My largest issue with what is proposed is the idea that there are 4 different versions of Sage Mode based on if a toad is on your shoulder or not, but I don't have the patients to continue reading/responding to such incredibly long responses.
- Rewriting an article is a bigger task than a single section, wait for others to voice opinions before making a move.--TheUltimate3 ^{(talk)} 04:46, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
- I hope that my analogy to incomplete technique versus completed technique helps with understanding what I mean when I used the word "version".--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 19:11, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
Not really a rewriting, just merging of sections, separating of others, cutting here and pasting there etc. also removal of speculation--Elveonora (talk) 05:16, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
How is this article confusing? I don't know how much this will help but as the article stands now I am fine with it. The only reason it is confusing to you guys is because you're taking things you don't have a clue about and adding them to the mix. It should be:
- Sage Mode-Toads
- mention all we know
- Also make note of the perfect balance and imperfect balance that the two disciples have achieved
- acknowledge the traditional method (with a sage toad to aid in process)
- also mention the way Naruto uses it (with clones)
- mention all we know
- Sage Mode- Snakes
- Assume that everything Kabuto did then is a product of Sage Mode unless/until mentioned/told otherwise. Then annotations can be made.
All that information is represented on the articles, it's just that you have all gone too far in dissecting Kabuto's Sage Mode. I realise that the people who always have problems with the way articles are, are the ones that go off on tangents and want to jump the proverbial gun and we don't do that here. Once the information is available to us, where we can reference it, and have evidence then that's when we move, not before. I'm not sure if you guys understand or no, but this is a method that has to be used to streamline content on the wikia so we don't lose credibility in the information that is found here.--Cerez365^{™}^{(talk)} 13:05, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
The only thing I could advocate for regarding this page, is that the image in the infobox is no longer accurate and a neutral one, possibly just showing the mixing/balancing of natural energy would be better.--Cerez365^{™}^{(talk)} 13:09, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
- @Cerez365...That assumption flies in the face of everything we've been shown in the manga. Kabuto's appearance was already changing when he put Orochimaru's DNA in himself. And everyone that uses a derivative of Juugo's abilities changes his appearance, just like Juugo himself does. Kabuto is using Sage Mode and Sage Transformation together, just like Jiraiya uses Sage Mode and Amphibian Sage Technique together. You can't just assume that everything Kabuto does is the result of Sage Mode, because it's explicitly said that it isn't. Why else would the DNA of Juugo, Karin and Suigetsu be mentioned?
- The structure should be:
- Sage Mode
- Mention all we know (basically everything that Fukasaku explained).
- Mention the existence perfect sage mode and imperfect sage mode.
- Mention the existence of 3 places where Sage Mode is taught, and that the pigmentation around the eyes show at which place you learned Sage Mode.
- Mention that most users have a method of making it more usable in combat.
- Mention all we know (basically everything that Fukasaku explained).
- Jiraiya's Sage Mode
- Mention that Jiraiya is an imperfect sage, and that he uses the traditional method as taught by the toads to make Sage Mode usable in combat and refer to the article Amphibian Sage Technique.
- Naruto's Sage Mode
- Mention that Naruto is a perfect Sage.
- Mention that Naruto couldn't use the method taught by the toads and had to come up with his own solution: Shadow Clones (and how he used it in his battle with Pain, maybe).
- Kabuto's Sage Mode
- Mention that Kabuto learned Sage Mode from the Snakes; that he would therefore look more like a snake than a toad; and that it's unknown how a Sage would look in its pure Snake form.
- Mention that Kabuto used Juugo's DNA and Sage Transformation to solve the same problem that Naruto used Shadow Clones for.
- Mention how Kabuto infused himself with DNA from Karin and Suigetsu and refer to the relevant section in Kabuto's character article.
- Sage Mode
- That's a far more usable and canon compliant structure than the current article has. It also prevents unnecessary duplication of information (see advantages and disadvantages sections). It also allows contributors to compare a specific character's use of Sage Mode against the general characteristics of Sage Mode, instead of forcing a reader to compare and contrast various uses of Sage Mode against eachother.--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 14:46, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
- Kabuto's appearance changed because Orochimaru's cells were fighting to take over Kabuto's body. That has nothing to do with Jūgo. It's akin to Hashirama's cells trying to turn Danzō into a tree, or else have them sprouting his face on his arm and Madara's chest, so you're wrong in that regard.
- It's not an assumption, it's lumping all the information together. I did not say they weren't factors into Kabuto's abilities but as this point, we're unable to discern what is what except for what has been told to us:
- How do you know that Kabuto is using Sage Transformation and not just using Jūgo's ability to passively absorb chakra? How do you know that that's simply how someone who uses snake Sage Mode is supposed to look?
- How do you know that Kabuto's been using Karin's Mind Eye of the Kagura (which is ridiculously impossible to steal via DNA) and just doesn't possess her ability to heal?
- As for Suigetsu, Kabuto was able to copy his Hydrification Technique and create the Body Fluid Shedding Technique.
- There is no such thing as perfect and imperfect Sage Mode. These are terms that we engineered for compartmentalising sake all of which is already mentioned. Ergo, Naruto and Jiraiya's forms don't have to be separated any more than they are now.
- Kabuto's:
- You're assuming that's not what a "pure" Sage would look like. There's nothing to compare it to, so where are you forming your basis from? SPECULATION
“ | Kabuto assimilated the DNA of Jūgo to replicate his clan's ability to passively absorb natural energy, thus allowing him to continuously collect the energy even while moving. | ” |
- Information about the assimilation of DNA unrelated to his Sage Mode is mentioned in his article.
- Like I've said before, I personally see nothing wrong with the article's structure and the most I would change is a picture or two. We are supposed to chronicle what is said in the series not the foregone conclusions that we draw on our own.--Cerez365^{™}^{(talk)} 16:02, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
@Cerez365...You're committing quite a few strawman fallacies to "prove" that I'm wrong. Cut it out!
You insist on using the phrase "ability to passively absorb natural energy". Fine, substitute that every time I use the phrase Sage Transformation. It doesn't alter my argument, but you seem to ignore that part in favour of saying that I'm wrong. (BTW, isn't Sage Transformation the name of Juugo's kekkei genkai?)
You acknowledge that there are factors contributing to Kabuto's appearance and abilities. And yet you fail to draw logical conclusions from that; conclusions that are consistent with the manga.
- We know how a perfect toad sage looks like: perfectly human except for the pigmentation around the eyes. The logical conclusion is that it's the same for a perfect snake sage. Is that speculation? Perhaps, but the significant part is that it's less speculative than the opposite conclusion (which would be that a snake sage is supposed to look like Kabuto did).
- We know that quite a few things that Kabuto assimilated will change your appearance. Sage Mode is just one of several factors that change Kabuto's appearance. The logical conclusion is that we're seeing Kabuto's Sage Mode. The illogical conclusion is that we're seeing "Snake Sage Mode".
- The manga says that there are 3 places that teach Sage Mode. The manga doesn't say that there are 3 different Sage Modes corresponding to 3 different animals. The logical conclusion is that there is only one Sage Mode.
- The manga is pretty clear about the fact that Sage Mode needs something to make it useful in combat. It's why I referred to Sage Mode as an incomplete technique (as well as to clarify my use of the word "version"). The manga has shown us three ways:
- Sage Mode + Amphibian Sage Technique
- Sage Mode + Shadow Clone Technique
- Sage Mode + Jūgo's ability to passively absorb natural energy
Given this information from the manga, it makes sense to treat the three times we've seen Sage Mode used in combat (the "completed" sage mode) just as important as the ("incomplete") Sage Mode.
You say that: We are supposed to chronicle what is said in the series not the foregone conclusions that we draw on our own. But that's exactly the problem with the current article. Calling it "Toad Sage Mode" and "Snake Sage Mode" emphasizes the personal interpretation of fans. Simply calling it "Jiraiya's Sage Mode", "Naruto's Sage Mode" and "Kabuto's Sage Mode" de-emphasizes any personal interpretation and allows us to emphasize what is actually said in the manga.--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 19:03, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
I see no reason no reason to change the article. It's fine as is for me. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:27, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
@Omni,
- the intro is : "Sage Mode is the result of using natural energy along with a ninja's normal chakra to drastically empower all their abilities"
Should be: "Sage Mode is a special technique used by Sages of Mount Myōboku and Ryūchi Cave that empowers their abilities. Another legendary place known as Shikkotsu Forest also exists, but it's yet to appear along with it's inhabitants and a Sage representative" Also as far as I know, Fukasaku for example isn't a ninja, so theoretically even a samurai could learn it or anyone who is skilled with chakra manipulation for that matter. My version sounds more appropriate as an intro imo. The part about it's workings should be a solely separate section as there's no need to repeat some of the information twice, and Shinobi again should be changed into user/individual or something.
It's an assumption/speculation:
- That Naruto/Kabuto have different power-ups while it's the very same and only technique using the same natural energy from around them, the terms "snake sage mode/toad snake mode" are basically fanon, there's not even a slight hint that there are more versions and that the benefits they grant differ.
- That Kabuto uses perfect/imperfect Sage Mode (we don't know even if it's most likely perfect, but since there are other factors as Orochimaru and Jugo's DNA in the play, it should be called Kabuto's Sage Mode) so stating that horns and shit are a sign of a true snake sage is double speculative. EDIT: already changed/removed partially.
So in short, this is how I imagine it:
- intro/overview in a nutshell, my proposal
- usage/workings/mechanics describing what it is more in detail and containing information about both it's advantages and disadvantages
- forms, stating what a perfect and imperfect sages are
- users: "Naruto in Sage Mode, Jiraiya in Sage Mode, Kabuto in Sage Mode" with a picture of each representative and a short history about their training and a summary about their "differences and workarounds"--Elveonora (talk) 03:49, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
Strawman fallacies? Friend when you're wrong, you're wrong. Sage Transformation is what happens to the clan members as a result of absorbing the natural energy. Use context clues and figure that out. All I was pointing out was that the info was reflected in the article. And again to address your list:
- Both Jiraiya and Naruto's use are mentioned and categorised
- Incorrect. The only thing that changed Kabuto appearance was what he took from Orochimaru ergo why Kabuto looked like that when he reabsorbed his "stuff" from Kabuto. If Kabuto had turned out looking like Kevin Levin, you would have had more of an argument. Without even adding the speculation that to think you could absorb a Senju clan descendant and not so much as change hair colour.
- The is not one sage mode. There is simple at least three different animals that learned how to absorb, balance and use Sage Mode. Why is this point even here in the first place?
- There is no need to me, to mention the different uses of Sage Mode outside said person's section. All the information is represented in the article and it is neither confusing nor lost, and believe me every time something like this comes up I use third party options from people not on the site.
In any case I'm done with this discussion, this seems like another of those lost causes/false alarms.--Cerez365^{™}^{(talk)} 06:22, December 18, 2012 (UTC)