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== Slug Sage Mode? ==
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== Madara ==
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He basically just stole it from Hashirama, but he also stated that he managed to master it very quickly, so he should be listed as a user, right? [[User:Norleon|Norleon]] ([[User talk:Norleon|talk]]) 12:49, December 4, 2013 (UTC)
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:I think it is the same with his Wood Release. It doesn't matter if the ability was stolen or acquired through body modifications, if he is using it, then he is an user. [[User:Shadow Abyss|Shadow Abyss]] ([[User talk:Shadow Abyss|talk]]) 13:27, December 4, 2013 (UTC)
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::I think the situation is a bit subtler than that. With Wood Release, all Madara needed was a physical piece of Hashirama to be grafted in his body. For Sage Mode, even though he already had the physical implant, he had to go to Hashirama. He drained Hashirama of his senjutsu chakra (which I find very odd, since I don't recall Hashirama being in Sage Mode the last few chapters). He didn't make the senjutsu chakra himself (as far as we know), we don't even know if Madara knows the mechanics of how senjutsu chakra comes to be (though I believe he does). We don't consider people Naruto gave tailed beast chakra to be jinchūriki, so I don't think Madara should be considered a Sage Mode user, even if he's using the senjutsu chakra. The whole situation is murky. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:45, December 4, 2013 (UTC)
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:::Hello sempai. In regards to Madara i would have to disagree a bit...in an earlier chapter, he said he was going to take Hashi' senjutsu powers in chapter 647. Now in this one Madara says how the power of the senjutsu chakra was dissapointing and he believed it would be harder to control it. Not only that, but we say the perfect Sage pattern appear in Madara's chest face. Also we know that if unless senjutsu chakra can be balanced, the user will display animal traits and eventually turn into an animal statue. Being a sage is being one who can balance and control senjutsu chakra within himself. From where i see it, Madara simply took a shortcut to attain the same result. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 00:51, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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::::But there's something that has never been clarified: does senjutsu chakra require active balancing once it is made? I mean, do you have to keep balancing the spiritual, physical and natural energies once the senjutsu chakra is made, or once made in the perfect ratio, the chakra is stable? I also find it very odd that it was only the Hashirama face that got the markings, and that Madara himself didn't get them. And I repeat, Madara himself has not made the chakra as far as we know. We don't list every shinobi Naruto gave Kurama's chakra a host, because the source of the chakra is not in them. Madara may have a Hashirama graft, but the graft was not the source of the chakra he is using. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 01:40, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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::::::But as Madara said, he did had to control the senjutsu chakra, even if that took less effort than what he originally assumed. Also i believe once the initial control is gained the chakra remains stable, but as we all know senjutsu chakra doesn't renew itself so for sages, there is no chakra source, they have to take the energy from outside sources and balance it with their own. If Madara hadn't gain control over the chakra, he'd turn into an animal like the Preta Path when he absorbed Naruto's chakra. And it was defined in the article that control (even if imperfect) over senjutsu chakra is what makes a sage. Also the Kurama comparison doesn't really fit here sempai, since we are talking about two very different types of chakra. Graft or no graft, that face is a part of Madara's body, thus its part of Madara himself and as such anything derived from it is Madara's own at this point.
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::::::*Another little side detail to add to this is Madara's insane sensing prowess after his revival. Given how Uchiha senses are restricted to visual/dojutsu ones and how once that is lost, their battle prowess takes a nosedive. (Izuna's death and Madara's final defeat against Hashi comes to mind.) I ask...how did Madara managed to dance around a Sharingan/sword master's attack, sense the peculiar traits of Sasuke's Sharingan, all while being effectively blind? The only type of sensing prowess this strong is that of a sage...remember Kabuto vs Sasuke and Itachi? Kabuto was also blind to prevent genjutsu and still outfought the brothers due his sensing in Sage Mode. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 01:57, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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The Preta Path case isn't the best example, since the zoom in Naruto when he opened his eyes sort of implied he himself introduced an imbalance in the senjutsu chakra while it was being absorbed. And it's not the senjutsu chakra per se that transforms one into an animal and then a statue, it's the overwhelming natural energy that does if you can't control its flow. Regarding sensing, Madara has been noted a sensor for a while now, and not due to his eyes. I goes back to at least when he first detected Hashirama's and made that psycho face. He's been listed as a sensor at least since then. Kabuto wasn't exactly blind. His brille made a filter to his eyes, you could still see the snake pupils behind them when they were lowered. Base Madara already had sensing. If anything, I'd say that the sage chakra is boosting an ability he already had. This is similar to Orochimaru's case. We know Oro's cursed seals contain his senjutsu chakra, but those who use his cursed seals are not Sage Mode users. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 02:13, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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:If Naruto had introduced the imbalance, the perfect sage pattern wouldn't have appeared on his face...it would look like Jiraiya's pattern if anything and in no way was it implied that Naruto gave the Preta Path imbalanced chakra...if anything he overloaded him with senjutsu chakra to turn him into a statue, but the statue turned into stone ''because'' it couldn't handle the senjutsu chakra. Yes Madara is a sensor, but to the degree of compensating the loss of his dojutsu, a major pillar in the Uchiha's fighting style? Kabuto did blind himself...he said at least once or twice to Itachi that he had cut off his eyesight to prevent eye based genjutsu. Why are you bringing Oro's cursed seals, when we know those were derived from Jugo's KKG...which ''is'' a different thing...however Madara did display the pattern signs of perfect sage control and remarked that he had to exert control over the chakra...all traits of a sage. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 02:23, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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::The focus on Naruto only happened when the shading around his eyes was all but over. Introducing an imbalance in the chakra would have snowballed in the Preta Path, leading to the petrification. Regarding Madara's sensing, what I'm saying is that even if he is using sage chakra, he's not using Sage Mode itself. I brought Orochimaru up because despite the cursed seals coming from Jūgo, the explicitly say that the cursed seals contain Orochimaru's senjutsu chakra. It's in the pages that show Orochimaru taking back his chakra from Kabuto. I still don't see pigmentation around Madara's own eyes, which according to Fukasaku are the sign of a true sage. Madara essentially took sage chakra someone else had a put in a graft battery. I'm saying that Madara is a similar situation to Orochimaru in which one has senjutsu chakra, but not Sage Mode itself. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 03:13, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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:::People keep saying that Hashi's face is a graft. Has no one ever assumed it was a mutation caused by the introduction of the First's Dna into one's body? Madara himself said that he infused the DNA into his wounds. So that's not a graft, its a mutation side effect, he didn't build and plaster a second Hashi face into his body, neither did Danzo. Its like having an extra limb...just because it's extra, what's done with it is still yours, your doing, possession and responsability. Also wasn't a similar discussion brought up, when someone wanted to separate senjutsu from sage mode? Wasn't it concluded that excluding Jugo/Oro's seals due to them being KKG-bound, that regular individuals were required to enter Sage Mode in order to use senjutsu. So unless you wanna unleash that box of scorpions again. The sage pattern appeared in Madara's face, in this case ''his second face''...and even if he did what you say he did sempai, he's still a sage at this point, since he still had to balance and control the senjutsu chakra he took in without the aid of a KKG...it maybe an atypical case, but the traits exibited by Madara are more aligned with ''Sage Mode'' than ''Sage/Cursed Seal Transformation''.[[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 03:29, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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: Madara is not using Sage Mode. He stole Hashirama's chakra and is using his "Hashirama face", if you will, to use ''Hashirama's'' Sage Mode. Therefore he is not a user. All this about him "controlling the chakra" is irrelevant and seems to be nothing more than a desperate attempt to list him as a user. It is A) Not his Senjutsu chakra, B) Not his Sage Mode, and C) Not his own body controlling it, but the "Hashirama face" doing it for him. He should not be listed whatsoever until he is shown using it on his own. Its absolutely no different that Kakashi and the other shinobi using Naruto's Kyūbi chakra after he gave it to them. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 04:08, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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:: So by that standart, please remove him (and everyone who's not Hashirama) as a Wood Release user, since he can only use it because of the "Hashirama face". Sure just toss aside one of the main pillars of sage mode/senjutsu, which is actually managing to not get turned into an animal statue, that makes perfect sense. "''Not his own body controlling it''"? Last time i checked...Hashi's face isn't detachable from Madara's body like a Lego piece, nor is it a tool of any kind, but a mutation caused by the integration of the First's DNA...Madara may be using Hashi's face, but that face is a part of Madara's body now, like anyother of his limbs so you saying he's using the face is like saying he's using the left arm instead of the right to swing a blade...its all part of his body...not originally sure, but it is now...that's like saying that a person who has an extra limb isn't responsible/can't control what that extra limb does...[[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 04:29, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
   
Considering it's been confirmed that slugs (Katsuyu) come from the Shikkotsu Forest in the most recent chapter, and that is the only other place besides Mount Myoboku (Toads) and the Ryuchi Cave (Snakes) where you can learn Sage Mode. Logically, the third version of Sage Mode that Hashirama Senju used is probably Slug Sage Mode. But since it isn't confirmed, it cannot be added. But I think it's worthy of being put into the trivia. Thoughts anyone? {{SUBST:User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4/sig2}} 01:08, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
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:::The precedent Kabuto created with his chest snake means that if you are in control of some freaky growth that can use some other technique, you are using that technique. So yeah, lets not try and think to stupid on this one. Madara is using Hashirama's Sage Mode, he gets listed as using Sage Mode.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 04:34, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
   
I think what your saying sounds logical but like you said it's unconfirmed.Although im not a 100% sure about putting it in a trivia without further proof.[[User:Whiteraven1|Whiteraven1]] ([[User talk:Whiteraven1|talk]]) 01:17, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
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::: No disrespect intended when I say this, but that has to be the most asinine reasoning for listing someone as a user I've ever heard. With Wood Release and Kabuto's snake... thing, the genetics of the person using the technique were apart of their new user; Wood Release in Danzo, Obito, Yamato, etc., and the Sound Four's in Kabuto. We saw him injecting the blood. Madara cannot use Sage Mode. He didn't absorb natural energy from the air and mix it with his chakra to make Senjutsu chakra, he stole the Senjutsu chakra Hashirama already had and used it through HASHIRMA's body parts that had been grafted into him. How the hell is that, in the sweet name of the baby Jesus, usage of Sage Mode? ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 06:58, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
   
: See the discussion on [[Talk:Hashirama Senju|Hashirama's talk page]]. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 01:47, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
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@Dark, to clarify, the Hash-chest-face is Kabuto's work as confirmed in the latest chapter, it didn't happen to Madara as he had gotten Hash's cells at all, just white skin. For the Sage Mode, yes, he is a user I believe, but if he should be listed as a Sage is questionable. As stated, it's the Hash-chest-face that has gotten the facial markings, not his own. And THIS IS EXACTLY why I brought up a while ago a forum about us listing users having KKG powers or otherwise as either them being temporary (transplant/experiment) or permanent (blood trait). So what does that tell us, true, he is no less user of Sage Mode now than Danzo was of Wood Release. Even tho he can do it only thanks to a foreign matter attached to his body, he had to control it and managed to and as such is a user. But a Sage has to be able to sense, absorb and balance natural energy himself, which he hasn't done. So short story: user of sage mode- yes but not a sage, reverse case of Orochimaru.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:17, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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::Mhm. The Spoken word. Glad to see you editing again Elveo. Sorry to just jump into this discussion. But i agree.--[[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 14:37, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
   
Where do you get the "only place to learn Sage Mode" for all we know, someone can learn Sage Mode in their bed at home while watching TV.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:31, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
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:::Asinine it may be Ten Tailed Fox, but it is what it is. He has a freaky construct of Hashirama's face on his chest, he absorbed Hashirama's senjutsu chakra and is able to manipulate it under his own will. He himself may not be in Sage Mode, but he is using it. Unlike Danzo, Madara is in control of his stolen ability, Danzo was not. WHen he got messed up the Wood Release ran wild.
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:::That being said, he is not a sage because he didn't actively learn the art of senjutsu he just sucked it out of one person.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 16:18, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
Because, Kabuto stated there are only 3 places to learn Sage Mode. From the toads at Mount Myoboku, the snakes in the Ryuchi Cave, and from the Shikkotsu Forest. Which has been recently confirmed to posses slugs. Considering Naruto learned Toad Sage Mode from toads at Mount Myoboku, Kabuto learned Snake Sage Mode from snakes at the Ryuchi Cave, and Hashirama Senju has a third version of sage mode that we've never seen. Logically, it is Slug Sage Mode. {{SUBST:User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4/sig2}} 14:13, June 21, 2013 (UTC) @Elveonora
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:::: I know he's not a Sage, but he doesn't even seem to be in the least bit familiar with Senjutsu chakra. "''So this is the coveted Senjutsu chakra.''" Doesn't say to me he even knows what he's doing. I mean, its like Omnibender said. Naruto gave ''everyone'' in the Alliance Kurama's chakra. Shoot, the Rookies even used a Tailed Beast Mode cloak. We're not listing them as psuedo-jinchūriki because they controlled that chakra, did we? No. Its no different here. I just don't like the faulty, paper-thin layer of logic that some seem to be using as an excuse to list him as a Sage Mode user. He's not. But, if that ends up being the consensus, I won't fight it. Just seems like a ''really'' big mistake to me. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 16:30, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
:Not true. Kabuto said he found the Ryūchi Cave which was equally as famous as Mount Myōboku and Shikkotsu Forest. Saying that those are the only places to learn Sage Mode is akin to saying that only Konoha-nin can learn Sage Mode then.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:34, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
 
::Absorving natural chakra as its secundary effects, almost impossible to be learned alone, because most of the people don't know that is even possible to absorve natural chakra and how to do it, it as to be teached or seen, and those three places being mentioned as the only places that someone could learn to absorve natural chakra i don't remember. Hashirama could easely observed how frogs do it, like Minato did with Rasengan inspiring into Tailed-Beast Bomb, and being Hashirama the most brilliant shinobi ever since Rikudou, he could developed his own Sage Mode. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 14:46, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::That's the point, there's no proof any animal taught him that. He could have managed to learn it by himself, theoretically--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:11, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
::::Yeah but besides if {a big if} Hashirama managed to create his own sage mode then what should his sage mode be called.Should it be called the Senju sage mode.Don't get me wrong im still debating about the whole Slug Sage Mode thing.But if it's later confirmed that this isn't slug sage mode then this is what it should be called.[[Special:Contributions/74.89.213.43|74.89.213.43]] ([[User talk:74.89.213.43|talk]]) 16:36, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
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:::: Madara said that he thought he would have a hard time '''manipulating''' it. Might just be better to wait for Raws though.''[[User:UltimateSupreme|<span style="color:#0078ff; text-shadow: 0px 1px 0.4px #0054d3, -1px -1px 1px white, -2px -2px 6px #0093f4;">~Ultimate</span>]][[User talk:UltimateSupreme|<span style="color:#f00; text-shadow: 0px 1px 0.4px #f33, 1px 0px 1px white, 2px 2px 6px #f33, -2px -2px 6px #f33;">Supreme</span>]]'' 17:04, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
   
I highly doubt ANYONE even him can simply learn on his own sage mode. That is a ridiculous assumption. I believe he was taught by somebody one way or another [[User:ItachiWasAHero|ItachiWasAHero]] ([[User talk:ItachiWasAHero|talk]]) 05:55, July 18, 2013 (UTC)
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TU3, what does Kabuto's navel snake have anything to do with this? The snake was never implicated in his use of Sage Mode, only in the skills he acquired from Orochimaru. He already had the snake while not in Sage Mode. The thing that sets Madara apart in this case, is that this isn't simply a case of grabbing a physical part of a third party and having access to its abilities. Madara already had the Hashigraft, and yet he had to go grab the senjutsu chakra from Hashirama himself. If he's at least aware of how senjutsu works, he'd certainly Gary Stu his way into mastering the whole process in half a heartbeat, like the overachiever he is, making the whole theft of the chakra pointless. Another example of non-use of technique, is Rasengan. Rookie 9 each took a Rasengan and slammed Obito with it, but we don't list them as users. Madara is the same thing. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 17:51, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
:This is an easy one, couldn't resist. Logic says, that there has to be first of something every time. Who was the first Sage ever (any species) taught by? Bingo, someone had to come up with it, that alone confirms it's possible to be self-taught--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:09, July 18, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
Well, that is true. We will just have to wait and see what explanation is given for it if any. [[User:ItachiWasAHero|ItachiWasAHero]] ([[User talk:ItachiWasAHero|talk]]) 22:15, July 18, 2013 (UTC)
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Should it not be noted that Hashirama's SM increases regeneration? As Madara's wound from Sasuke's 'Kusanagi' explicitly healed up within a very short time after adopting the pseudo-SM. Maybe this is what Madara was referring to about Hashirama's Byakugou-esque healing? [[User:Pesa123456789|Pesa123456789]] ([[User talk:Pesa123456789|talk]]) 19:25, December 8, 2013 (UTC)
   
== Reverting ==
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Hash cells in themselves heal and shi* as shown with Obito, nothing with senjutsu. But I thought what healed Madara was QB chakra anyway--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:03, December 8, 2013 (UTC)
Okay, there has been this small revert war happening where Hashirama's Sage Mode is being changed to Wood Sage Mode. Stop this now and explain why someone would want to change it to Wood Sage Mode. [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 12:33, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
:There is no discussion here, someone is simply putting a fanon name in because they think it sounds better. The only person to use that particular Sage Mode was Hashirama and until Kishi decides an official name for it, we will continue to call it "Hashirama Senju's Sage Mode". --[[User:Speysider|Speysider]] <sup><small>[[User_talk:Speysider|Talk Page]] | [[User:Speysider/Images|My Image Uploads]] | [[User:Speysider/Tabber Code|Tabber Code]] | [http://youtube.com/LPSajuuk Channel]</small></sup> 12:47, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
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:By the Light this is still going?
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::The snake has nothing to do with Sage Mode. I was pointing out that Kabuto pulled out Orochimaru and the Sound Five from the naval snake and we count him as having used their techniques and their kekkei genkai. Ergo, Madara pulling out Sage Mode and putting it into his Hashichestface and as he said he can manipulate it to mean means, unless we just decide to say "eff it" and decided just because all hate Madara that he isn't using Sage Mode, he is using Sage Mode.
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::And I thought i brought up the Rookie 9 thing. The Rookie Nine actually didn't do a damn thing. They jumped into Naruto's chakra, Naruto formed the Rasengans and all his friends did was push. They ain't manipulate nothing. It was the same thing when Naruto pushed Killer B's tailed beast ball through 30 barriers.
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:Now that being said, I'm already bored witht his discussion. If we want to say Madara is not using Sage Mode then I'm willing to just call everyone out for bullcrap but let it be removed without a fuss anyway so long as we also take into account Kabuto's actions with his weird body modifications.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 02:37, December 9, 2013 (UTC)
   
::fanon name? Seriously? -.- Look at his [[Sage Art: Wood Release: True_Several Thousand Hands]], and notice that unless he has Wood/Trees Sage Mode, there is no other explanation for this. Besides, calling it 'Hashirama Senju's Sage Mode' sounds pretty stupid. Next time, try to think before canceling an edit. {{SUBST:ס:משתמש:Itachi san/חתימה}} 13:37, July 7, 2013 (UTC)
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But the difference with Kabuto is that all those techniques, implants or not, originated within him, in his body. Madara already had the Hashirama face in him, and even them he had to go take the senjutsu chakra. That is what I think constitutes the Orochimaru-like situation of using senjutsu chakra, without actually using Sage Mode. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 00:12, December 10, 2013 (UTC)
:::Shima's technique is called Sage Art: Wind Release Dust Cloud, her Sage Mode isn't Wind Release because of that. All Sage Modes with a confirmed origin stem from summoned animals. There's absolutely no evidence that his Sage Mode stems from his Wood Release. I'd suggest you try taking your own advice. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 15:58, July 7, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
== Gamakichi? ==
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== Questionable Content ==
Seeing as he has been described as using a [[Starch Syrup Gun|Senjutsu attack]], should we list him as a user of Sage Mode? I mean, maybe we ought to wait for the better translations, but I think it's pretty clear there.
 
--[[User:ScruffyC|ScruffyC – Ash &#34;Scruffy&#34; Chancellor, the man who will become the world&#39;s greatest video game designer and change the world y&#39;know!]] ([[User talk:ScruffyC|talk]]) 05:56, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
 
:Actually, shouldn't only humans be listed as Sage Mode users? The Toad Sages use senjutsu without transforming and databook 3 only listed Jiraiya as a user of "Sage Mode", despite the toads being mentioned as users of senjutsu.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 22:04, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
:I think, toads use senjutsu without transforming into sage mode. They are original user of senjutsu, they dont need to transform but humans transform to use senjutsu.--[[User:Salamancc|Salamancc]] ([[User talk:Salamancc|talk]]) 22:56, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
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For some time now, the article has been broken up into sections more or less stating that there are different Sage Modes. In the past I've questioned the source of this, and I never felt I was given adequate justification, and certainly not in the vein that is usually demanded on the wiki. There seems to be zero mention in the manga by ANY practitioner of Sage Mode that what Hashirama and Kabuto do is any different, in terms of the basal technique, to what Naruto does.
::They do have to gather natural energy to use senjutsu though. The fact animals were not listed as users of Sage Mode does raise an important question. Has there been any reference in the manga of animals entering Sage Mode? Or do they only make senjutsu chakra and use senjutsu? [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:40, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
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Now, one thing offered up is that Kabuto and Hashirama have different designs around their eyes, and that Fukasaku noted that Naruto had the eye designs of a true sage. Well, that's not accurate actually. All Fuksasaku said (Ch. 418 pg. 5) is that the dark pigmentation around the eyes are the mark of a true Sage, he never made mention or note of it being specifically a mark of a Toad Sage, or anything else, just that of one who has perfected Sage Mode. And given both Hashi and Kabuto fit that description, and made no mention of using some specific brand of SM, I'd put in my suggestion that the article be fixed to remove a lot of unfounded assumptions one must make for it to make sense. Thoughts? [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 07:29, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
:::One can't use senjutsu without sage mode tho. I don't think they are in an empowered state all the time. As stated, they also need to gather natural energy. And Fukasaku was strong enough to lift a giant boulder. With such strength, he would not have been killed by Pain, suggesting he was in normal mode when hit.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:10, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
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:At the very least, it could be separated by user, so we could say "Naruto Uzumaki's Sage Mode" or "Kabuto Yakushi's Sage Mode" instead of made-up names like Toad Sage Mode and Snake Sage Mode which imply different types. The current implication that each version has different strengths and weaknesses also seems unnecessary. Stating things like Kabuto's and Hashirama's not having enhanced durability because Sasuke's sword could cut them seems like a big assumption; Pain's rods could pierce Naruto after all.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 07:39, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
::::They need gather natural energy but they dont need to enter sage mode. Sage Mode is a technique which used by only humans.--[[User:Salamancc|Salamancc]] ([[User talk:Salamancc|talk]]) 18:44, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
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::I really don't understand how there can be different sage modes. The sage mode is simply the state of ones body when it absorbed natural energy. There are no different kinds of natural energy one can absorb and we don't have the slightest explanation for why the absorbtion of the same energy results in different looks. So yes, I agree with Beyond, we should differ by user, not by looks. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|]]</sup> 09:34, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
:::::Says who? Unless it's stated in canon, you just made it up. Gathering natural energy and balancing it EQUALS Sage Mode, there's no difference. The latter results as a consequence of the from former--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:55, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 
Right back at you, Elve. Where was it stated in the manga that animals needed Sage Mode to preform techniques like that? Anywhere? I actually question why we add animals to Sage Mode myself. It seems that animals can more naturally use natural energy and sage techniques without needing the transformation their human counterparts require. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 20:17, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 
:(edit conflict) What part exactly? We know the toads need to gather natural energy because we've seen them do it. The fact which appears to have sparked this discussion is that Shima and Fukasaku are not listed as Sage Mode users in the Third Databook, despite some of their techniques being listed as senjutsu. That would imply that Sage Mode is a state in which humans are able to use senjutsu, and that animals, while also capable of using senjutsu, are not considered users of Sage Mode. We have to fine comb through mentions of senjutsu. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 20:20, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
:: That's what I'm getting at. Completely agreed with Omni. Animals can do senjutsu without Sage Mode, which, makes the human users look more animal-like I might add. It'd be sort of... redundant? to make an animal go through a similar process. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 20:29, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
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:::Agreed Seelentau. It is just balancing natural energy with one's own inner energies after all. I think one thing we might do is simply mention that all known perfect sages (among humans anyway) had different designs around and on the eyes, but they all possessed the distinctive mark of a perfect Sage that Fukasaku mentioned. It avoids all extra assumptions but mentions how each user differs aethestically. But should we split it by user? I can't really think of anything in particular that Kabuto or Hashirama did with the form itself that was noticeably different from Naruto. They each just seemed to power-up their techniques. Suggestions? [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 13:44, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
:::Don't forget that there's the whole issue of Jūgo's clan's ability, and cursed seal being a mock senjutsu as well to murk up the subject a bit more. I'm half expecting Sasuke to be explained about some of it in coming chapters, only for us to learn that he can once again use his cursed seal over the flesh transplant he got from Jūgo way back when Taka was hunting Killer B, so he can have "senjutsu"/mock senjutsu that can damage Obito. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 20:38, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::Except humans are animals as well guys.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:54, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 
It seems like only animals that can be summoned (like the toads and snakes) are the ones that can use senjutsu naturally and also teach it since they can naturally absorb the natural energy. If it was all animals then I'm pretty sure the entire Inuzuka clan would be able to into sage mode since they are always with dogs. As for Jūgo, I thought it was mentioned that, while he can absorb natural chakra, he can't control it like the toads/snakes and that's why he goes on rampages? [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 22:19, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 
:Not everything is to be seen always through the scientific lens Elv. Josh, they did mention his clan couldn't control it, but the cursed seals Orochimaru made, some of its bearers could control it. See Sound Five, Sasuke. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 22:23, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 
::True that some could control it but it was shown that even Sasuke had trouble in the beginning (remember him trying to break Zaku's arms?). Going by [[Orochimaru's Juinjutsu| the actual page]], it mentions that Orochimaru created a method to actually help the body get accustom to the curse seal. [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 22:33, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::@Omni, that's right, this is a fiction after all. But Kishi seems to have at least a basic grasp about biology and stuff. We weren't told humans have a creator in Narutoverse after all ;) and the whole Kekkei Genkai stuff is a strange twist on evolution. Anyway, I'm really sorry to ruin your little speculation guys, but "all animal techniques = senjutsu" is wrong, as [[Water Release: Gunshot]] wasn't listed as senjutsu. One who can absorb, balance and control/use natural energy is by default a Sage and since Shima and Fukasaku had to restore it, they aren't under enhancements all the time and as such, when they are, they enter Sage Mode. 3rd databook omitting them is strange, but it might as well be an overlook. It's called "sage mode" not "animal mode" and as far as I'm aware, their nickname is "great sage toads" and since they use senjutsu, it refers to that, not anything else.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:09, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::Where is the difficulty in realizing that frogs and other species mentioned as using natural energy don't enter into Sage Mode but only humans? But as @Elv said and @TTF both theories discussed here are not explicit anywhere. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 14:02, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
Again sucking natural energy and getting chakra upgraded to senjutsu chakra = sage mode. So they DO.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:01, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
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::::Hey Skitts long time no see, I was wondering where you have gone to ^_ And yes, thank you for bringing up again one of my favorite unresolved and ignored topics!!! Now, all we have to do is await for naysayers and unnamed sysops to come and paste a giant red NO on our foreheads to prove their might and ignorance. I'm not having anyone specific in particular on my mind of course :D Just generally speaking about those who disagree. And yes, there should be a single section listing all the benefits of Sage Mode, not for "different" modeS since there are none other and a removal of the animal labels as well. There is just this weird phenomenon for those who were taught by snakes turn into snakes, those that by toads into toads etc. so there's where the assumptions of different modes come from--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:50, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Hey. Real life (school and work), hobbies and forgetfulness kept me away. I still checked in every so often, just never got involved. xD Anyway, I'd question whether individuals who were taught by snakes would turn into snakes. We've never seen Kabuto loose control of natural energy, so the safest assumption is that he would turn into a toad as Naruto nearly did and the Preta Path actually did. Kabuto was already a snake, after all. :) Sage Mode just seemed to enhance his snake-related abilities, which is unsurprising given Fukasaku mentioned one's abilities are increased by it (ex: Naruto's healing rate and stamina). [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 14:45, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
: They don't have Sage Mode. At all. The databook left off the toads for a reason. They can't use Sage Mode. They can use Senjutsu. They can use natural energy. But they cannot use Sage Mode. There is a difference. ''Humans'' who mold natural energy with their spiritual and mental energies when they're forming chakra, enter Sage Mode. Or did you miss that entire arc? I'm with Omni on this one. I'm in favor of removing the toads, any any non-human animals for that matter, from the list of Sage Mode users. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 21:44, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
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::::::But Preta Path having turned stone toad statue is a problem, isn't it? This for one gives evidence to their assertion of "animal specific" modes. But why would Kabuto have turned into a toad had he failed to master it? That would have implied Sage Mode having origins with the toads. Only good thing is that if that were true, it would actually take away credibility to their assertion of different modes, because it would mean every single Sage Mode is "toad sage mode" So basically both evidence for and against appear to be contradictory to the explanation as why that happens.
::Jesus, what is this coming to? What you propose is completely nonsensical. You are basically making stuff up to fit many years old databook not listing them. They are listed since forever, and no one has had a problem with it until now. Re-read the fu*king chapter where Fukasaku lifts a giant boulder, thanks to Sage Mode of course--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:48, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
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::::::If everyone turns into a toad no matter what, it means a single Sage Mode, if it differs from person to person (which we are yet to see) then that doesn't necessarily mean many different modes :) So I think there's more evidence for a single Sage Mode--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:57, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
::: Read that. Not Sage Mode. He used natural energy, which, we've establish that while that may be a pre-requisite of Sage Mode, does not equate to using Sage Mode. Jūgo's clan and what not. Sorry, you still haven't shown me where any thing but a human has used Sage Mode. And if you can't use anything other than your personal bias and speculation to back it up, I don't see that happening soon. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 21:58, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::: '''Edit''': I might add that the feat you were referring to, I'm guessing without re-reading it to actually see if it fit your point, Fukasaku was demonstrating the effects of Natural Energy. At that point, Naruto hadn't even begun training for Sage Mode yet. He was just explaining how Natural Energy works. So... there's that. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 22:03, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::Don't anger me please. For the last time, they don't use just pure natural energy, but senjutsu chakra, which by default makes their bodies enter sage mode. Read this http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Fukasaku#Sage_Mode_-_Jutsu_List it appears to have been brought up at least once as I learned. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Shima and Fukasaku's techniques are listed in databook to be '''senjutsu''', right? If they aren't then you have a point. Otherwise, you are grasping at straws to fit what you want. Basically what you are saying is that after eating food, they don't let out cra* but something else--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:07, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::: This whole argument is amusing. All you use is your own speculation to fuel your debates. But, as with all fun things, they must come to an end. Fukasaku and Shima aren't listed as users of Sage Mode, nor is the Great Toad Sage, yet Jiraiya and Naruto are listed in the Databook. Also, um, Orochimaru uses this Senjutsu you're referring to; can't use Sage Mode. Apparently Jūgo's clan can use senjutsu chakra, can't use Sage Mode. You're at the end of your ropes here. Let's review, though, for good measure, and just so everyone else can see how stupid this is;
 
::::* Sage Mode = The use of Natural energy in perfect tandum with mental energy and physical energy, during the formation of chakra, which results in the ability to use a heightend transformation called Sage Mode. This always results in at least ''some'' physical changes on its human users.
 
::::** Frogs. No physical transformations.
 
::::** Snakes that we've seen (Great White Snake Sage). No physical transformation.
 
::::* No where in the databook are anything other than the human users listed as users of Sage Mode, despite the fact that the book came out AFTER Sage Mode was explained, so Kishi had every right to list them if he thought they used it.
 
::::* Manga makes no mention of toads using Sage Mode '''anywhere''', but rather, they seem apply senjutsu directly, since they don't need a transformation to preform it. And all mentions that have been brought up here are of toads using pure natural energy, which Elve has yet to rebut.
 
::::* Orochimaru uses natural energy AND senjutsu chakra, can't use Sage Mode.
 
::::* Jūgo's clan can use natural energy, can't use Sage Mode.
 
::::Plain and simple, they don't use Sage Mode. They should be removed. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 22:13, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
* Don't confuse yourself please. Orochimaru clearly is a user of Sage Mode, what we were told is that he couldn't find a strong host body to hold it, never that he couldn't ever use it himself. In fact, go back and check him sucking out Senjutsu chakra from Kabuto again and cursed seals possessing his senjutsu chakra, both which wouldn't be possible had he not learned it
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:::There seems to be no need to divide it into sections. All are basically the same. Probably a '''Known Sage Modes''' or something similar in the end might work.--''[[User:UltimateSupreme|<span style="color:#0078ff; text-shadow: 0px 1px 0.4px #0054d3, -1px -1px 1px white, -2px -2px 6px #0093f4;">~Ultimate</span>]][[User talk:UltimateSupreme|<span style="color:#f00; text-shadow: 0px 1px 0.4px #f33, 1px 0px 1px white, 2px 2px 6px #f33, -2px -2px 6px #f33;">Supreme</span>]]'' 15:04, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
* Apparently Jugo clan member's bodies absorb natural energy, they were never stated to be using senjutsu
 
* Are you being silly now? Frogs already have frog eyes, so you want them to get an extra pair of frog eyes or more pronounced frog eyes? The mode isn't about physical change, but body being empowered by senjutsu chakra. By your logic Hashirama isn't a user of Sage Mode either because there are no tentacles coming out from his arse for your amusement--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:34, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
:: Maybe in your world, Elve, but Kabuto and Sasuke both said Orochimaru couldn't use Sage Mode, so he can't. We can go through the "what-ifs" all day, but the point is; he can't use it. So, until you can point me to somewhere in the manga that says toads or any other non-human uses Sage Mode, they don't use it. On the other hand, I can actually point you to things in the manga that prove my points. List above being proof. Facts have that funny feature to them. You can refute speculation all day, but when proven a list of facts, the only rebuttal you have are, and I quote, "''By your logic Hashirama isn't a user of Sage Mode either because there are no tentacles coming out from his arse for your amusement.''" Oh, and just for good measure, the reason I know Hashirama has Sage Mode, is because his eyes gain Sage marks around them, and... uh... he calls his transformation Sage Mode. Unlike any toad I've seen thus far. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 22:44, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
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::@Elveonora The Preta Path example is the one that best supports the idea of a single Sage Mode. Remember, all Naruto did was pass on natural energy (or maybe senjutsu chakra) to him through his absorption technique, and the Preta Path, who had no known affiliation with any Sage location, still turned into a toad. And this doesn't indicate necessarily that Sage Mode originated with the toads (although it wouldn't really matter), as Fukasaku just said that a toad transformation and pretrification were the natural effects of not controlling the natural energy, not that it had anything to do with who Naruto was affiliated with when learning it. So given Kabuto drew in natural energy for the mode as all Sages do, the best assumption is that improper use would result in a toad transformation.
:::Ignore evidence and the context for as long as you want, doesn't make it more valid. One can't have senjutsu chakra and not be in Sage Mode, that's a fact. And don't make me laugh, so: "I said so, therefore it's true" is a fact? The only "fact" is that 3rd databook doesn't list them as users. But for all I care, make them cursed princes--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:07, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
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:Well, I guess I'll get to it then. Or should we wait for more yays and nays? [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 15:35, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
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::Maybe we should look at the broader picture of natural energy. The Shinju, natural energy embodied, originally a tree, has taken upon MANY form. Shapeshifting/transformation is a trait of natural energy it would appear. Same for Jugo's Clan and Curse Mark users, they all have different forms. And as such I don't like the notion of every Senjutsu School dropout turning into a toad and would like to ignore the Preta Path instance altogether. Perhaps Kishi didn't give it as much thought as we do. I like to convince myself that the form they take is dependent on their personality traits. This would explain why for example Jugo, who has unstable mind can shapeshift into many things, while Curse Mark users who did not get the madness part all have just a single form.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:51, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Well now, that's the kind of speculation we're trying to remove from the article. :) What the Shinju does is kind of irrelevant here, it's the origin of all chakra too after all, and chakra has all sorts of uses. We already know there's a shapeshifting element to natural energy, just look at what happened to Jiraiya. Jugo's clan is something of a special case, in that it's their Kekkai Genkai that allows them to do shapeshifting after absorbing a little natural energy, and Orochimaru's Curse Marks are just an imitation of that. And not to sound mean, but it doesn't really matter what you want to be the case, but Fukasaku did note that a toad transformation and petrification is the drawback to improper Sage Mode, with no qualifications. The Preta Path instance cannot be ignored because it was a demonstration of that, with Fukasaku confirming that when it happened. Oh, and madness IS a part of the Curse Mark. Remember, one of the Sound Four told Sasuke that if he remained in the Curse Mark Leve 2 state for too long, he would begin to loose control mentally (Jugo's clan) and the energy would take over his body (like improper Sage Mode). [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 16:22, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
::: Very well, I think everyone else can see for themselves what the facts are. And I can see that you're stuck in your own realm of speculation so to continue this argument further would be pointless. Now then, I'll ask anyone else here if they have a voice, because the consensus, so far, is that non-humans don't have Sage Mode. Anyone else have any thoughts. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 23:09, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
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It was said that they would become like Orochimaru, not like Jugo. And I know we are trying to remove speculation, I was speaking hypothetically what would fit and make sense to me. The article just needs to be streamlined without actually removing anything. @Seel, would you look at it?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:53, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
I'll just throw my two cents in here too. This is how I see it. If we are calling Fukasaku and Shima users of Sage Mode, why can't we call Gamakichi one as well. What qualifications does Fukasaku and Shima have over Gamakichi? Both don't seem to enter a Sage Mode when they use Senjutsu, and they both can use Senjutsu chakra. The way I see it, either Gamakichi can be considered able to use Sage Mode, or Fukasaku and Shima can't necessarily be said to. [[User:Omega64|Omega64]] ([[User talk:Omega64|talk]]) 23:12, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
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:Sometimes I think we're the most backward wikia. I really wish that we could agree upon one thing, stick with it, and wait for clarification. Instead we beat dead horses, and those amongst us that were enlightened by JesusBuddhAllaHindugods but walks amongst us lowly humans finds every opportunity to undermine the wiki they can't walk away from. Not you Turry, how u doin~
   
Suggesting me to be autistic and speaking of me in 3rd person doesn't add up to your credibility. Let's say there's an equal amount of evidence for and against. Now, how about instead of a removal would we put up a notice there that it may be false? Again, Suki himself explained it. By the laws established in the scripture of Naruto, using Senjutsu chakra makes you enter Sage Mode. Not only there have been a few errors in the databooks, but not everything is in there. A removal would confuse many people. Good luck explaining it once someone comes asking why aren't they listed as users anymore since they were for half a decade or so. Well, the answer will be just because one guy called Ten Fox who appears once in a while decided as such--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:21, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
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:Any way, we all are supposed to know by now that Sage Mode is just that - Sage mode. We tried to differentiate them because they aren't all the same. Modes learned through different methods reflect differently on persons. Toads look like toads, snakes look more like snakes. Are we supposed to ignore that? Are we supposed to differentiate Naruto's Mode from Jiraiya's even though they both learned from toads? To me the sections explains each usage as accurately as possible. If the pseudo-titles are that much of a bother, they can be changed but we can't lump them all together and ignore the obvious differences. --[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 17:17, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
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::That's the thing, Kabuto looked like that even without Sage Mode, it just gave him horns. Curse Mark gave Kimimaro- the bone guy, more bones, yet we don't consider that to be the Curse Mark's specific trait. We don't have any reason to believe that without Kabuto's prior experiments he would have looked any different than Naruto, with just the eyes changing. So the only "anomaly" is Hashirama, he we can say has "specific" mode until we learn more. But the animal labels irk me, also there's no reason to repeat "improved strength, speed etc." for each users, it's same for all.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:26, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
: The only people I see asking anything, is why they're even listed to begin with. Care to explain that? Also, side note, I edit here more or less everyday. Check my contributions if you don't believe so. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 23:28, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
The way I see it, if the toad crew are listed as users of Sage Mode due to the ability to use senjutsu chakra, then Orochimaru should be listed as a user on the basis of that criteria alone. With that said, Elve's point would be correct. Add Orochimaru, otherwise, the toads should be removed. With that point, T.T. Fox would be correct in the sense that there was no transformation in them. Either way we go, we would have a standard to uphold. Simply put:
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This whole thing is problematic entirely because of Kabuto as far as I can tell. He's the only one that has other animal traits in Sage Mode, but one can't forget that he was a snake beforehand. My only problem is that it seems the only real reason we have the article like it is because Kabuto shenanigans. And I'm good Cerez. How goes you browski? [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 17:30, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
* Keep the Toads as users = Add Oro to keep a balanced standard that users are those who simply use senjutsu chakra.
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:Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we already have "toad sage mode" before Kabuto was even revealed to be a Sage Mode user?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:32, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
::::OR
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::Nope. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 17:34, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
* Remove the toads due to the fact that they weren't officially confirmed to be user of Sage Mode anyway.
 
'''What's my opinion on the matter?''' : I agree with Elve. Keep the Toads as users; add Orochimaru as a user. I mean, he was quoted "learning sage mode, but never being able to master it due to weakness of his body. Thus (as Kabuto stated) he was an ''imperfect sage''." Plus he puts senjutsu chakra to use. [[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 23:32, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
: Kabuto and Sasuke noted that Orochimaru couldn't use Sage Mode. Elevenora stated that Orochimaru wasn't in a ''body'' that could use Sage Mode, yet we've come to learn that his cursed seals use Senjutsu and he can use senjutsu chakra, yet cannot use Sage Mode in his body. Seeking someone out to learn Sage Mode and actually using Sage Mode aren't the same things. So that blows Elve's theory right out of the water. Also don't know where I suggested he was autistic, so that's just wow, incredible. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 23:35, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
::Interpret it anyway you want. Kabuto states that Orochimaru ''couldn't find the right body'' and that Orochimaru ''couldn't become a perfect sage''. That's a fact. [[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 23:39, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
::: And now I'll thank you for proving my point. You realize what you're suggesting right? Orochimaru isn't in a body, nor never was in one that could use Sage Mode, and you're trying to suggest to me that that means he can use Sage Mode. But why use logic? ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 23:42, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
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:Cerez reflects my issue with lumping all of the Sage Mode styles together. Basically when you want to get down to it, yes there everything is Sage Mode. But then you get into the seperate styles: Naruto and Jiraiya learned Sage Mode from the toads. Kabuto and Orochimaru learned Sage Mode from the snakes (tho Kabuto was the only one who could make actual use of it).--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 21:26, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
::::@Fox, your point isn't proven at all, and your the one who's missing the logic. Since when did this difference between Sage Mode and Senjutsu ever came up? From day one it was believed that one came with the other...that by producing senjutsu chakra, you gain sage mode...now this may come to different degrees of control/perfection...Jiraiya was an imperfect one, but he gained enough control to use it battle, soo there's nothing against Oro simply having lesser skill over it...the points are: Just because a person didn't master it, doesn't mean he can't use it...also if he could create the cursed seals, which produce senjutsu chakra, ''Orochimaru's'' senjutsu chakra, that can only be gained by sage mode, ''his'' sage mode. In terms of the toads, it's the same...unless you can prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt: Senjutsu =/= Sage Mode, no one can separate these...so to wrap it up...keep the toads and add Orochimaru. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 23:49, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
:::: I don't even know what you were trying to say there. At the beginning you said that Senjutsu = Sage Mode (which is insanity because Orochimaru can use Senjutsu but not Sage Mode, and the same for Jūgo's clan), and then at the end, you say they're not the same thing, which is actually closer to the truth. We all agree that Orochimaru can't use Sage Mode. He's looking for a body to be able to use Sage Mode in, but there is no dispute that he has, nor never had before, no ability to use Sage Mode at all, yet his several of his techniques use Senjutsu chakra. The Toads can't use Sage Mode, nor can Orochimaru. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 23:53, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
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"He's the only one that has other animal traits in Sage Mode" ~ Skitts
:::::: Fox, please stop trying to mince up everyone's words. Juugo's clan is irrelevant. Senjutsu is the perfect mixture of chakra and natural energy. Juugo's clan '''only''' absorb ''Natural Energy'' to empower themselves. There's nothing more to it. Dark, Elve, and I, are right in terms of Senjutsu usage = a Sage. [[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 00:00, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
:::: Oh, you're absolutely right, where did I go wrong? Sasuke and Kabuto? Psh! Forget what they said. Forget the fact that Orochimaru actually couldn't use Sage Mode, as the ''manga itself'' states, yet could use Senjutsu techniques, like the ''manga itself'' states. But who cares about that, right? I mean, the databook only lists human users, despite the fact that toads had already been shown using Senjutsu when it came out, and that doesn't mean anything apparently either, because you guys can just decide which facts you want to keep and which facts you don't. Right? I'm glad, though, that everyone else will get to read this. Makes for a pretty amusing read, if you ask me. And breaking up people's words is how you show the flaws in their arguments, which you have yet to try with anything I've stated. I've asked for simple things; a page, or pages, of the manga or a databook that prove '''anything''' related to Toads using Sage Mode, or Orochimaru using Sage Mode. Just provide me with something that says that, and I will happily bow out. After all, I can provide you with a ''trove'' of pages and references, yet you have not one. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 00:06, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
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Not true, Jiraiya's hands, feet and face all took on toad like traits because he wasn't a "Perfect" sage. At the same time, in Sage mode, both Jiraiya and Naruto's eyes gain horizontal slits, whereas Kabuto gained vertical slits, which, given what happened with Kurama's power and sage mode, if the horizontal slit is indicative of Sage mode, and his eyes had the slit as a result of experimentation, shouldn't he has + shaped eyes too? Jugo, as the only example of his clan's ability without tampering, has no defined animal trait, but unsurpassed transformation properties compared to the rest. Hashirama's Sage form comes with markings unlike the others, but no particular animal trait or transformation from what we've seen. While all these characters possess a Sage Mode, or in Jugo's case a transformation related to the absorption of natural energy, none of them except the two trained by Toads share traits beyond facial marking, so saying that all Sage modes are the same is a lot more inaccurate than splitting them up. Even if they are mechanically the same, superficial things like the different facial markings and mutation from failure are seemingly independent of one another.--[[User:Hawkeye2701|Hawkeye2701]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye2701|talk]]) 21:47, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
:::::: I never said that senjutsu and sage mode were different at any point...and we're not even sure what Jugo's clan can do. Also what most of the people did here was assume that since Oro can't use Sage Mode in full, he simply can't use it, yet by some stretch of mind he can use senjutsu, (which translated means Sage Techniques, geez i wonder if that's a hint?). Here's another example, we have Naruto listed as a user of the Tailed Beast Rasengan, yet, he at best completed the technique by 50%, and was never able to used it in combat. Another thing, from what was stated...to enter sage mode, your body has to mix the three energies and produce senjutsu chakra, and you don't even have to fully balance it to use it. What's your reasoning to assume toads don't use sage mode? No animal traits? They are the animals those traits are based on. Do you have irrefutable proof, beyond Kabuto's vague statements that senjutsu and sage mode are two diiferent things? Does the databook ''explicitily'' say these two are different? Does the manga? Also you're the one who's trying to claim that sage mode and senjutsu are different things, hence burden of proof lies with you. Also tone down your statements, your being patronizing. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 00:16, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
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:Hawkeye, you do realize I was talking about people who complete Sage Mode, right? Hence why I only brought up Naruto, Kabuto and Hashirama in that instance. Further, Kabuto ALREADY had vertical slits before Sage Mode, as well as most of all the animal traits. All he gained were horns as far as we can tell. Saying that all Sage Modes are the same is the most canonical thing to say given statements by Fukasaku that I've already mentioned, namely that the defining mark of a Sage is dark pigmentation around the eyes. He didn't make not of any particular design, but of dark pigment alone, which both Hashirama and Kabuto certainly had. And come on man, NO WHERE have we seen mutation from misuse be anything other than turning into a toad (i.e Preta Path and Naruto). We've never seen Kabuto or Hashi loose control, so you've no leg to stand on for your case.
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::@TU3 What do you mean by different styles? Different teachers sure, but I can't recall any display of anything specific to a particular user of Sage Mode, aside from individual techniques. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 22:12, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
:::::: Its patronizing to ask for proof? Some flat out states that Orochimaru can't use Sage Mode in the manga, you lot say that by some act of God in Heaven, he can use Sage Mode, and all the sudden, boom, Sage Mode. Tell you what, I'm going to ''prove'' my points by getting every single reference I've referred to just to show you how absolutely ludicrous you three are being, and we'll see if you can refute fact with fact. Be back in a few minutes. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 00:19, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
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:::It means exactly as it sounds. While there is one Sage Mode, there are three known styles of it: Toad, which Naruto and Jiraiya use, Snake, which Kabuto can do and Orochimaru knows about, and Whatever-the-Eff-Hashirama-Does which Hashirama does. Trying to change it to imply that each Sage Mode is unique to the user implies that the toads at Mount Myōboku can teach someone how to grow brille over their eyes, or a snake from the Ryochi caves can teach someone Frog Kata.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 22:49, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
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::::I could have sworn at one point that the article had an I commented mention that there was no such things as Toad or Snake Sage mode and that they are simply there out of convenience of us chronicling the information. The longer titles like "Sage Mode - taught by toads/snakes" would be bad for linking them in other articles.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 01:59, January 14, 2014 (UTC)
   
:::::::: People stop going off the main issue of animals being able to use sage mode. As for my input, this matter was already cleared up in that link Elevenora provided to fukusaku's page. Unless you are disputing what shounensuki said at the end of the discussion, I see no point to this just because animals weren't listed as users in the databook. [[User talk:Simant|S<small>im</small>A<small>nt</small>]] 00:21, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
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Okay, so I figured I'd get to this since there seems to be basic agreement. So my thought is to essentially remove the noticeable implication that there are distinct-ish Sage Modes, and merge them, give the general effects that Sagee Mode has been confirmed to have. Kabuto didn't display anything fundamentally or substantively different from Naruto, the Toads or Hashirama, so we seem good there. I think the only important thing to note is, as I said earlier, that while all of the designs of completed Sage Mode users differ, yet they all possessed the distinctive marker of a true sage that Fukasaku mentioned (dark pigment around the eyes). We good? We good. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 01:42, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
   
(Restarting indents) Here's the proof I have regarding Toads as Sages, Orochimaru's dealings with Sage Mode, and so on;
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:The subsections are probably still neccesary to some extent. It could be organised like the Susanoo article - a general overview talking about how it works and what it does (enhanced jutsu, strength, speed, perception, etc.), then subsections for Jiraiya, Naruto, Kabuto, and Hashirama. The subsections could talk about things specific to each user, like Frog Kata, Muki Tensei, Jiraiya forming toad feet, etc. as well as Naruto's method of entering the Sage Mode. This way no unofficial terms are used at all, but all the information is still present and organised.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 02:34, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
   
* "''With Senjutsu, ya take that internal chakra and augment it with 'natural energy', creating a new, more powerful form of chakra and all of 'yer ninjutsu, genjutsu, and even your hand-to-hand skill'll get a serious power-up. So ya got spiritual, physical, and natural from the outside. Techniques using chakra coming from those three sources are called 'Senjutsu'.''" - Fukasaku; Naruto 409 pages 11-12
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::As stated in the edit summary, yeah the last comment (Cerez) implies the discussion was still moving, it just fell off. Good job starting it up again. Maybe this time we can actually get to a conclusion.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 03:12, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
** Proof that Senjutsu chakra and techniques =/= Sage Mode. In fact, at that point in the chapter, Sage Mode hasn't even been brought up yet.
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:::EDIT:And maybe simply just undo my edit and reinstate Skitts. From my first pass of it it doesn't seem wrong, if only a tad formated oddly (It looks weird to me. Probably fine, just looks strange to my old man eyes.)
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:::And for reference, there is Skitt's version of the page [[User:TheUltimate3/Sage Mode|Click me]].--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 03:17, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Do note that I did all of this because i do like to get a clear end of a discussion. If nobody does say anything, I will consider this the end and make Skitt's version official anyway.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 03:19, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
   
* "''Yes! '''That dark pigmentation is the sign of a Sage'''! He did it!''" - Fukasaku; Naruto 418 page 8
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(edit conflict times 2)
** Proof that at least some manner of physical transformation is present in Sage Mode. Which '''''no''''' frogs have. Funny, that's awkward.... since a frog said it. And yet, you guys claim they don't need it. Not using Sage Mode, then? I think so.
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@BeyondRed Huh? Muki Tensei is a technique, not a special ability of Kabuto's Sage Mode, Frog Kata is just a fighting-style and Naruto doesn't do anything special in entering Sage Mode. Those subsections are somewhat redundant. The only useful one you mentioned would be the one for Jiraiya, but only because his is the only imperfect transformation we've seen. The others seem superfluos, and the way it is currently lends itself to the unmistakeable implication that Hashiram and Kabuto are doing something distinct from Naruto, which we have no evidence for. The current setup itself is using unofficial terms.
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@TU3 It did? All that Cerez seems to be saying is some of the rationale behind the usage of the terms. If he was, my mistake. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 03:21, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
   
Now I'll deal with Orochimaru specifically;
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:I didn't mean to imply Frog Kata was exclusive to Naruto and that, say, Hashirama couldn't potentially use it because his Sage Mode looks different, that's the sort of speculation that is the current problem. Rather, I think it should be clear that while nothing states other users with "different" Sage Modes can't do certain things (like Frog Kata or Muki Tensei), nothing confirms they can either. At the very least, the article should still have images and descriptions of the four different Sage Modes we've seen, doesn't really have to be in subsections, but that could be a way of organising it so the main section doesn't feel cluttered.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 05:26, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
   
* "''Orochimaru-sama tried to gain this ability, but he never found a body that could bear its power. So... he couldn't become a complete Sage in the end... like ''me'''!''" - Kabuto; Naruto 579 pages 16-17
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Why is it that no one here has ever thought of there being different types of natural energy? Natural energy comes from the ground and the air, emanating from plants and animals, right? So why wouldn't the natural energy be different? Mount Myoboku and Ryuuchi cave both have large populations of toads and snakes respectively, right? So would it not make sense for most of the natural energy to be emanating from them? And that those who train in those places, learn to absorb those specific energies? Has anyone here noticed that almost every cursed seal release resembles actual animals? (If not, go to Orochimaru's Juinjutsu and look at the prison picture). And how Jugo, one that can absorb natural energy innately, can change into anything he wants? Am I seriously the only one here that knows how to put two and two together to realize that what animal you transform into is dependent on what energy you learn to absorb, and other than that, the abilities are the same? Because the way I see it, its the only logical conclusion, and the fact that there are so many that don't understand that disturbs me. [[User:MangekyoSasuke|MangekyoSasuke]] ([[User talk:MangekyoSasuke|talk]]) 05:45, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
** Hmm.... self explanatory to me.
 
   
* "''There is no need to explain things to me... I put my own Senjutsu chakra within the cursed seals and my consciousness with them.''" - Orochimaru; Naruto 593 page 8}}
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:I actually have thought of that exact thing before and hope it does turn out to be the explanation, but it's still speculation. We can't but information into the article if it can't be referenced or even directly implied.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 06:30, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
** Proof that Orochimaru can use Senjutsu chakra without Sage Mode, as Kabuto's quote directly above proved he could not.
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:That doesn't explain why Kabuto turns into a snake-dragon when there are no snakes around. The same goes for Naruto. How can he turn into a frog sage when there are no frogs around, whose nature energy would be absorbed by Naruto? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 09:17, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
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::Wrong :P Naruto ate a toad and Kabuto had a snake merged with him... /solved?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:35, January 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Naisu try but no. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 21:59, January 24, 2014 (UTC)
   
Anything I missed? ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 00:44, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
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On topic, Ulti's/Skitt's version looks very good, one more time should it be compared and checked and unless someone will come to disagree, used asap.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:57, January 24, 2014 (UTC)
   
:Geez...everything...if anything you only added to lack of difference between both.
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:The only thing I would want to add is that training under a certain animal leads to a different style. I don't like how Skitt's version reads as if Kabuto just became a snake Sage for no reason at all. In fact I don't think it even mention the Ryuchi Caves at all.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 23:02, January 24, 2014 (UTC)
*Powerup to taijutsu, genjutsu and ninjutsu...producing senjutsu chakra by using spiritual, physical and natural energy...sage mode basics, all of it. Unless you're can say that the '''exact same process and gained benefits''' can be brought by two different powerups, which is throwing logic out the window, hell the what's the meaning of sage mode at all?
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::As much information should be preserved, just without bias, speculation and vagueness. In the advantages part, it should be added that the user may learn senjutsu techniques unique to his/her animal species, like frog kata from toads, light and stone no jutsu from snakes and so on.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:07, January 24, 2014 (UTC)
   
*They don't have the physical ''frog'' traits...because they are '''frogs'''...when did that miss you? They all have the slits and ''natural'' pigmentation around the eyes. Your proof only refers that ''a'' physical transformation appears on humans, which is almost identical to a toad's natural look.
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@BeyondRed Huh? Again, Muki Tensei is just senjutsu, and Frog Kata just a fighting-style. Saying there's no evidence other Sages can't use them is absurd given the series explanations on what ninjustus and chakra manipulation is. If you have the necessary skills to us e a technique, barring any genetic requirement, the technique can be used. Muki Tensei is just senjutsu, ergo other Sages can use it if they knew how, given what we know about chakra manipulation; Frog Kata is useable by any true Sage according to Fukasaku (right after Naruto first entered a completed SM), provided they've learned how.
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*As for why Kabuto changes, that's a little speculatory. My version of the article does note that particular oddity about Kabuto without speculating as to the reason. If we absolutely have to, the most canonical thing would be to go to what Fukasaku said about Sage Mode boosting one's natural abilities. He noted that both Sage Mode and Kurama's chakra boosted Naruto's healing rate to absurd levels. This could account for why Kabuto progresses. He was already a snake, and SM's boosting shows true what Fuksaku said about SM, by making him a 'dragon'. The other relevant problem is Kabuto's DNA tomfoolery, so I doubt even Fukasaku would be exactly sure why. And Kabuto was already a snake, so asking why SM made him a snake is nonsensical. :p
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But again, that's more speculatory than I'm comfortable putting in the article as definite.[[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 03:42, January 25, 2014 (UTC)
   
*Kabuto said he couldn't become a '''complete''' Sage, yet we know that there are '''incomplete''' Sages like Jiraiya. If Kabuto had said Oro ''couldn't'' learn it, or that he ''couldn't'' become a Sage i'd agree...but Kabuto said he couldn't become a '''complete/perfect''' Sage...in other words he said he became a Sage, simply not at the same degree as him. If anything that statement said that Oro simply couldn't master it, not that he was unable to use it.
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Bump--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:34, January 30, 2014 (UTC)
   
*And the last bit, Oro never confirmed that he couldn't use sage mode, and since the above statement is already flawed...yeah.
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:Already said my peace. Skitts version is fine, I would just suggest adding different areas appear to form different styles.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:36, January 30, 2014 (UTC)
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::Action > words :P--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:20, February 10, 2014 (UTC)
   
For a guy who's always talking about facts, you twisted them beyond reason here. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 01:20, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
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Just wanting to say those who revised this page did a excellent job. That is all :) --[[User:Questionaredude|Questionaredude]] ([[User talk:Questionaredude|talk]]) 19:59, February 22, 2014 (UTC)
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: Surprised no one mentioned, ''at all'' in this discussion that the reason why each Sage Mode should be separate is because each seem to enhance the user's physical abilities differently. Toad Sage Mode gives Naruto, Minato, and Jiraiya enhanced durability, speed, and strength from the feats they've shown. Snake Sage Mode enhances maneuverability, speed and agility, while keeping durability and strength the same as shown in Kabuto. And Hashirama's Sage Mode grants increased endurance and enhances his regeneration, as shown through Madara. All have shown different physical aspects that are actually improved.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 03:42, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
: And ^ that is where you all fail. You using your personal opinions. I provided page numbers, quotes, and facts. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 01:23, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
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: Because that is your opinion and has no place in this article. When someone mentions that Toad/Hashirama/Snake Sage Mode has any variations between the augmentation they offer, then we'll add it, but we don't just add what we come up with off the top of our head to articles. That's called speculation. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 03:59, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
:: '''Edit''': Also, do you notice how you mentioned Frog transformations, when Fukasaku specifically is talking about the markings around his eyes? Orochimaru mentioned using Senjutsu chakra, when in the quote above Kabuto says he hasn't yet to find a body that can use Sage Mode, which backs up the first quote, which is that Senjutsu and Sage Mode aren't one in the same, aren't used interchangeably, and can be used apart from each other. Don't believe it? Provide me with some proof that I'm wrong. I've got all the proof I'm right. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 01:26, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
:::Okay, I'm going to go ahead and say that I agree with Fox that senjutsu doesn't equal Sage Mode but I do want to point out something Darksusanoo said: ''And the last bit, Oro never confirmed that he couldn't use sage mode''. Since it's basically been pointed out that we neither know or don't know if Orochimaru can use sage mode, isn't this all speculation for now? All we have right now is Kabuto saying he didn't become a complete sage and I say we stick with that. Put it in trivia on this page for now and pack this up until Orochimaru finally does pulls a Sage Mode or another databook comes out that says he is able to do it. Until then, lets stop the talk about Orochimaru and talk about the animals. [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 01:37, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
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:: I think you need to look up what speculation actually is. Kishimoto has been distinct on the physical enhancements Sage Mode gave those from the different disciplines. Do you see Kabuto ''tossing boss summons around?'' Especially when he failed to send Itachi fly back with a strike? Or Hashirama/Madara doing the same thing? And the durability varies wildly: only Madara's [[Chakra Disruption Blades]] have pierced Toad Sage Mode skin, while both Hashirama's and Kabuto's have been pierced by a normal blade. Seriously, feats show it. I've even ''added'' them in the past. Not everything needs to be spelled out, this is a logical conclusion.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 04:30, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
:::Ten-Tailed fox, those interpretations of those references were REALLY biased... I completely agree with Darksusanoo (and why does he need to add page numbers etc to provide a different view of the same refs you brought up?). [[User talk:Simant|S<small>im</small>A<small>nt</small>]] 01:40, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
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That's just your assumption. By the same logic (since Naruto could lift and throw a giant boulder) he could have just thrown Pain away from Konoha, sending him on a tour around the world, yet he didn't.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:24, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
::The proof is in your own statements...Kabuto said Oro couldn't become a complete sage, not that he couldn't become one...your quote...there are different degrees to that...again i refer to Jiraiya who wasn't one either. Oro never denied being capable of using sage mode. The physical traits thing is completely moot since a toad can't become ''more'' toad. You're ''proof'' is vague...neutral at best...you're interpreting it as no, i can interpret it as yes. Unless someone who knows what they are talking about can ''explicitily'' explain that these two things are different you're talking to the walls. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 01:41, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
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== Slug Sage Mode ==
   
::: They aren't bias at all. I'm taking those quotes to be literally Kishi's intention. If using quotes from a series about the subject at hand is bias, then there's no point debating anything about the information presented here, because you'll just pick and choose what you want and go with it. The reason I want him to provide me with page numbers or something other than his personal opinion is because I'm trying to understand his logic. I've said over and over and over again, if he can do that, I'll at least know where he's coming from and I'll back down, but every time I do, all I get is more personal opinions, whether its from him or Elvenora. They can't just say, "Here, look here and this is what it says." And that's literally all it takes, but I still haven't seen them. And the reason I haven't, and they know it just as well, is because those points do not exist in anything but their own opinion. It doesn't exist in the manga, in a databook. Heck, it doesn't even exist in the anime, yet I'm supposed to take it and shut up when, on the other hand, I ''do'' have statements from the manga. I do have a databook entry that has purposely excluded the toads. Orochimaru is iffy, but I at least support my claims with pages of the manga. But apparently finding quotes that fit my argument is bias. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 01:46, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
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Due to the fact that Sage Mode can be learned from the Toad Sages at Mount Myoboku, from the Snake Sage at the Ryuchi Cave, and we have learned that the slug Katsuyu comes from the Shikkotsu Forest. A place stated to be equally famous to Mount Myoboku and the Ryuchi Cave. It is heavily implied that there are slug sages at the Shikkotsu Forest where one can learn Sage Mode from them. Hashirama Senju, is capable of using a third unknown Sage Mode. Considering his granddaughter, Tsunade, can summon slugs and is called the Slug Princess it is likely that his Sage Mode is the Sage Mode learned from the slugs. Also due to the fact that slugs appear to be aligned with healing and Madara Uchiha stated that he had obtained Hashirama's regenerative abilities (after obtaining his Sage Mode) would this not further imply that he had learned his Sage Mode from the slugs? Also due to the whole toad, snake, and slug symbolism it would make sense. I know it isn't a fact so it cannot be stated. But I think it has enough evidence to be added into the trivia section perhaps? Thoughts anyone? [[User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4]] ([[User talk:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|talk]]) 03:46, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
:::: Here's the thing @Fox...'''your own quotes''' don't prove anything...you're the one trying to prove the difference...it's your job to present the evidence...and your's is again vague...none, i mean '''none''' are conclusive...the bias here is not you providing the quotes (the fact that you did is commendable and proof of your hard work and something i'll try do to more in the future) it's your '''interpretation''' of it...none of them say you can't use senjutsu without sage mode, not even the databook...if it said something along the lines of "toad however do not require Sage Mode to use Senjutsu" or "toads can use senjutsu through this method, rather than Sage Mode" or '''something''' along those lines, hell i'll write you an apology, but until then...and i'm simply taking what you presented and finding the flaws in it...just as you said in this entire discussion. Also @Dan, Jugo and his clan is due to a ''specific'' genetic condition...[[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 02:04, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::::@Dark and everyone else that defends that Senjutsu = Natural Chakra is Sage Mode, Jūgo uses natural chakra, and he is not in Sage Mode, Senninka is not Sage Mode. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 02:01, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
::: If the information you have on an article does not reflect what is said in the manga, it is a flat out lie and misinformation. Since, you don't like the quotes from the manga, and '''you''' find them flawed, then that means you are willingly ignoring the manga because '''you''' have a better explanation in mind, or perhaps you just don't think its quite right. Either way, if its not in the manga, not in a databook, or not in the anime, hence making it an anime-only addition, then it doesn't belong on an article. It goes both ways. You could mention, for instance, in the Trivia, that toads use Senjutsu without seeming to use Sage Mode, since you cannot argue that they haven't been seen in any form of Sage Mode, ''at all''. Even Fukasaku mentions that. Same for Orochimaru, and that'd be less speculation then actually listing them as users, since, they in fact have not been shown using any method of Sage Mode. You're just pulling stuff out of the air and throwing it on articles, just because you don't like what the manga presents, and that kind of crap is exactly why we have a Speculation policy. It doesn't belong there. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 02:11, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
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: For all we know, Hashirama didn't even learn Sage Mode from an animal. We don't know what he summons ''if'' he even summons an animal to begin with. There is no evidence. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 04:00, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
: '''Edit''': Also, they're not ''my'' quotes. What are you even talking about? Those words come from Kishi's manga. They're '''his''' words. Are you actually saying you know better than the person that wrote those words? ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 02:14, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
::Omission or lack of information does not dictate what's true or false...and hell Fukasaku never noted any differences between both things...which would seem as a very important thing to explain doesn't it? Oww for Pete's sake stop mincing every letter i say, the quotes you pulled. Again what '''I''' don't like aren't the quotes (hell i praised you for that) it's '''your''' interpretation of them...that's the bias...you're the one trying to believe you know better...it's greater speculation to assume there are ''two'' powerups with the exact same method of activation, the exact same benefits, and the fact that every technique used from all users them start with the words "''Sage Art"'' (or in one case "''Sage Technique''") If anything, it's all inconclusive. Hell let's wait for a few more chapters, were bound to get an explanation, since they are bound to explain why senjutsu can harm Obito now. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 02:30, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
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The only known ways so far is via an animal. So where else could he learn it? --[[User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4]] ([[User talk:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|talk]]) 04:25, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
:: Then remove the frogs until its explained. There is no proof they can use Sage Mode. Also, you're misunderstanding. There is not two power-ups involved here. Yes, Senjutsu techniques are naturally stronger than Ninjutsu. That's the whole purpose of the first quote. If you look at Sage Mode, you can see the difference immediately. Senjutsu are techniques that use natural, physical, and mental energies altogether. Sage Mode is focusing those energies into the body to achieve a transformation. They're completely different things for completely different purposes. Just as how Naruto can use Kurama's chakra to help heal his injuries without actually using the Nine-Tails transformation, or [[Nine-Tails Chakra Mode]]. They're not one in the same. Also, you're misunderstanding something else my friend. Your differentiating my opinions and the quotes. My argument is straight from what those quotes are saying. All I care about is the exact meaning of those quotes, so if you have beef with what I'm saying, then yes, you have beef with Kishi's interpretation of things beacause its ''HIS'' opinion I'm going by. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 02:39, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
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It was stated there was 3 special places that taught senjutsu i believe, the bone forest place, mt. miyoboku and ryuchi cave and orochimaru said the slugs come from bone forest place or whatever. so yes it is VERY likely and possible that that is where Hashi learned it, but it can only be added when confirmed. [[User:ItachiWasAHero|ItachiWasAHero]] ([[User talk:ItachiWasAHero|talk]]) 04:42, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
:::Your argument is anything but straight from the quotes...and you're being mighty bold to say your interpretation is Kishi's way of thinking...at least i can say i can't with such certainty...can you get inside the man's mind? Hell the quote you pulled says it:
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: No, it said that the "Ryūichi Cave is a place of equal fame to Myōbokuzan and the Shikkotsu Forest". ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 04:44, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
::::*"With Senjutsu, ya take that internal chakra and augment it with 'natural energy', creating a new, more powerful form of chakra and all of 'yer ninjutsu, genjutsu, and even your hand-to-hand skill'll get a serious power-up. So ya got spiritual, physical, and natural from the outside. Techniques using chakra coming from those three sources are called 'Senjutsu'.''" - Fukasaku; Naruto 409 pages 11-12.
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That that's the name, but he is right Senjutsu is only known to have been taught or stolen like in madara's case. It was also hinted at one point that you did not need a contract to find these places or learn senjutsu there. [[User:ItachiWasAHero|ItachiWasAHero]] ([[User talk:ItachiWasAHero|talk]]) 04:49, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
:::Please note the parts: "ya take that internal chakra and '''augment''' it with natural energy", "'''more powerful''' form of chakra", "yer ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu skill get '''a serious power up'''", the last one being literal about it...so yeah '''two powerups''' are involved by your train of thought. And so i ask...why sage mode is necessary at all? Why didn't Fukasaku just teach senjutsu? At this stage, the only thing we can agree on is that there is a missing piece here...so let's leave it all for now and come back when more information surfaces, because what exists now, can go either way. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 02:58, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::Just a simple question so i can make my point here, do animals (toad, snake) have any type of chakra? This may sound stupid but is not. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 03:08, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::::Fukasaku amd toads do...giant snakes, slugs, summons in general have them...Gamakichi and Gamabunta can use nature transformation, that requires chakra to transform...to use senjutsu they need it...and lots of it...regular animals on the other hand was never fully stated...what's your point? [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 03:12, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::::Because I am not sure if they do, but that's speculative as hell, skipping this question stuff, trying to reach a comum sense beteween visions on the same matter, @Dark and @TTF both have good arguments, the only thing you guys agree is that there is missing something, lets just wait for further information or databook content, if we take the toads from the infobox, we would have to change too much of the article. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 03:28, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::::[[Water Release: Gunshot]], used by Gamabunta...[[Fire Release: Flame Bullet]] used by Gamakichi (anime only)...so yeah...animals have chakra. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 03:33, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
Back to the main point yes Gamakichi can use senjutsu but I agree that he'd have to enter sage mode to gather natural energy to do so and Elve has already provided us wive good references --<span style="color:Yellow;">[[User:ROOT 根 |ROOT]]</span><span style="color:Lime;">[[User talk:ROOT 根|根]]</span> 11:48, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
@Fox, you are one of the most ignorant people I know. Senjutsu chakra flowing in one's body makes it automatically enter Sage Mode. Naruto didn't have to activate anything, he managed to balance energies and fell down from rock on ground with it activated. Also stop twisting facts to suit your fallacies... Manga says Orochimaru didn't find a suitable body for Sage Mode. It '''DOESN'T''' say that his own body can't handle it neither that he hasn't had one in the past that could. Unless you can provide us evidence for another way how one can turn his/her chakra into senjutsu chakra externally or something. All in all, the majority opposes you my friend. More editors, Cerez, Seelentau, Omni, anyone?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:14, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
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Yes, that's true. But the fact that toads come from Mount Myoboku and there is toad sages there, snakes come from the Ryuchi Cave and there is a snake sage there, and we have learned that there is a Shikkotsu Forest and that the slug Katsuyu comes from there. Especially since Hashirama has a third unknown Sage Mode and so far the previous two sage modes have been Toad and Snake, in order to keep the toad, snake, and slug symbolism it would make since for Hashirama to have a "Slug Sage Mode". But it's true it isn't a fact or officially confirmed. Which is why I suggested adding it to trivia. There is more evidence and similar abilities that hint at it being Slug Sage Mode. So that's why I believe it should be listed in the trivia section. --[[User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4]] ([[User talk:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|talk]]) 04:55, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
: At least I'm not one to form my opinions on nothing more than personal opinions and baseless speculation. You can say what you want, I'm done with this debate. I would much rather hear Omni, Ultimate, Cerez, and Seenlantau's opinions, since they tend to think with their heads and not their feelings, like you and I tend to. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 01:00, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
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: My point is, until we have definite proof, we're steering away from speculation. I actually think Hashirama's Sage Mode is related to the slugs myself, but, professionally, that just doesn't belong in an article. Just because Tsunade is his granddaughter doesn't mean he shares her summons, that he has a contract with a slug (the reference you mention, Itachi, is anime-only, and therefore we must throw that out with regards to manga information. You need a contract to summon), or that he learned Sage Mode where the slugs reside. And you're missing another point. The three locations mentioned (for snakes, toads, and slugs) are only noted to be famous. For all we know, there are other places to learn senjutsu. There are just too many unknowns to say for sure. I suggest just letting it go until we get a new databook or clarification in a later chapter. Because, by your logic, we'd have to list Tsunade as a Sage because Orochimaru and Jiraiya learned Senjutsu, so therefore she must've learned it too. See where that kind of loose ends logic leads? Not very productive. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 05:02, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
::I can't read all of this o.o To be honest I've never given it much though before now but if I had to decide, I would remove all animals from Sage Mode and only list persons as users for several reasons:
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Alright, I guess you're right. It would be better to wait a little longer until another source of info is released that confirms what Sage Mode Hashirama is using. I get your point. I'll just go ahead and leave this topic alone until further confirmation. --[[User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4]] ([[User talk:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|talk]]) 05:07, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
* Databook entry not only doesn't list Shima and Fukasaku as Sage Mode users, the way it is written is written in the perspective use of a human being.
 
* That brought me to the other conclusion: In Sage Mode, the person becomes more like the creature that taught them Sage Mode: eyes mostly reflect this (excluding purposeful transformations or no).
 
* That now led me to think that animals naturally use senjutsu and do no enter Sage Mode which is what humans have to go into to '''use''' senjutsu while animals do not they just make natural use of the energy. It would make them Sages, just not Sage Mode users.
 
** That just led me to a tangent about Jūgo's clan, their transformation and how we classify their techniques, but I won't even go there.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 01:42, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::So not gaining froglike features when they are already frogs means they aren't in sage mode? What do you mean animals naturally use senjutsu; when did the Inuzuka clan dogs start using senjutsu? If animals naturally use senjutsu then why are there stone ancestors of frogs who failed training. Fukusaku had to make a seal when he showed naruto senjutsu to gather the natural energy and enter sage mode. Also, I'm going to Shounensuki's input here from the Fukasaku talk page:
 
{{Quote|Shounensuki|Simant asked me for my input in this discussion. As explained in chapter 418 and in the third databook, Sage Mode is the state where one has moulded senjutsu chakra inside oneself. The state where one can use senjutsu and has had their body vitalised by the senjutsu chakra. Using this definition, both Fukasaku and Shima are capable of using Sage Mode, as they have clearly shown the ability to use senjutsu.}} — [[User talk:Simant|S<small>im</small>A<small>nt</small>]] 02:15, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
: I'm with Cerez here. Thank god someone else sees it how I do. I already rebutted Shonensuki's point. Senjutsu =/= Sage Mode. Sage Mode, as explained by Fukasaku, is the process of becoming one with nature, allowing for a physical power-up. Senjutsu is fusing natural energy with mental and physical energy to enhance one's techniques. They're different. Cerez also raises a very legitamate point. When Humans use Sage Mode, they, in someway, become more animal-like. This also proves my quote from Fukasaku, about the pigmentation around Naruto's eyes being "''the sign of a Sage''" was not bias. I'll repeat it just to make sure I hit home.
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: This is just my opinion but, I don't think it's too far-fetched to assume that there could be a "Slug Sage Mode".
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: First, to address a topic discussed above, while I agree that there is technically only one Sage Mode, I believe the differences between the modes we see come from the specific techniques used to achieve them. The techniques taught at Mount Myoboku by the toads result in the toad-like traits exhibited by Jiraya and Naruto (even if it's just his eyes) and, while Kabuto already had snake-like traits and may also be a special case due to his self-experimentation, it seems to me that his sage mode (resulting from techniques taught at Ryuchi Cave) only increased said snake-like traits (even if it's just some horns on his face).
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: If we look at the facts, we know that Shikkotsu Forest is compared to both Mount Myoboku and Ryuchi Cave, and that the three Sannin's summons each come from those locations. Jiraya is known to be a Sage, while Orochimaru is, at the very least, capable of manipulating Sage Chakra (even if his host bodies won't allow him to enter Sage Mode), and is probably also a Sage. While we don't know what technique Hashirama uses to enter Sage Mode, or what summon (if any) he utilizes, Tsunade is his descendant, is one of the three Legendary Ninja, and summons Katsuya. With as many parallels this series seems to implement, it seems reasonable (while still speculative) that Hashirama could have learned the techniques to enter Sage Mode from the slugs at Shikkotsu Forest.
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: This last bit is highly speculative but, Tsunade's Strength of a Hundred Seal seems very similar to a Curse Mark, or even the Sage Mode markings. I don't believe this to actually be a Sage Art/Technique, but could be modeled after one (sort of like how the Rasengan is modeled after a Tailed Beast Ball). It was stated by Madara that this technique is similar to Hashirama's style of medical ninjutsu, and it is noted that Katsuya is somehow "directly linked to and supported by the seal."
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: What I take from all of this information is that Hashirama may indeed have been trained in Sage Arts by the slugs of Shikkotsu Forest, which helped him to form his advanced medical ninjutsu techniques. These (non-Sage) techniques would have been passed down to Tsunade who formed the Seal and Creation Rebirth techniques. Obviously, none of this is even hinted at in the series but, being that there are so many gaps in information, this is what I like to fill them with. It just makes sense to me. Hopefully we'll get some sort of official explanation soon.--[[User:Tronyc714|Tronyc714]] ([[User talk:Tronyc714|talk]]) 11:15, June 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
: "''"Yes! That dark pigmentation is the sign of a Sage! He did it!"'' - Fukasaku
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== Perfect Sage Mode ==
   
:I don't see why he'd say that if it didn't hold some relevance to the transformation. Animals don't need a transformation to use Senjutsu because they are already part of nature. Humans, on the other hand, not being in harmony with nature, need Sage Mode to harmonize themselves and ''then'' they're capable of using Senjutsu. Its not hard to follow when you don't muddle things up with speculation. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 02:25, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
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When the user achieves no animalistic traits, they've achieved Perfect Sage Mode. Explicitly said so in the manga since the balance is perfect.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 19:41, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
::Senjutsu are a type of techinque that uses natural energy, sage mode is having balanced natural energy with your own chakra. Shounensuki didn't state them to be the same, only related. You have in no way rebutted shounsuki's point to what I can see with your quotes. Is your point that fukasaku didn't say suppose to say "for a human that dark pigmentation is the sigh of a sage"? — [[User talk:Simant|S<small>im</small>A<small>nt</small>]] 03:04, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
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:Was the term "perfect" ever used? Also there always are "animalistic" (lol?) traits, them being the eyes and so--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:54, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
::: I'm going to be honest with you. I didn't understand what you said. Nor do I understand what you're arguing. If, by your admission, both yourself and Shonensuki admit that Senjutsu =/= Sage Mode, and, by your own admission, you can't refute that Fukasaku specifically points out the pigmentation around a users eyes being the sign that they use Sage Mode, which both Cerez and I noted is missing in toads, then you have no argument. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 03:20, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
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:: Yes, Fukasaku explicitly called the state where no animal traits (like what Jiraiya got) was perfect, with only the eyes and the pigmentation around them being the only change. Check chapter 418.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 19:58, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
::::The point is the toads already have pigmentation around their eyes, so you can't tell. It doesn't matter that they aren't the same thing, as senjutsu techniques require senjutsu chakra which is the result of balancing physical/spiritual/natural energy which is achieved through sage mode. And the frogs have used senjutsu. — [[User talk:Simant|S<small>im</small>A<small>nt</small>]] 03:27, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
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:::No, he doesn't. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 20:13, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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:: Then what was the differentiation between Naruto's state and Jiraiya's?--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 20:34, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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::The unbalanced energies. But I meant Fukasaku and his words. He didn't use "perfect" or anything alike. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 20:36, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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Fukasaku just said "The pigmentation around his (Naruto's) eyes is the proof of a true Sage, it means he could perfectly balance the three energies. From this point, he truly surpassed Jiraiya!", nothing about a ''Perfect'' Sage Mode.--[[User:JOA20|JOA20]] ([[User talk:JOA20|talk]]) 20:47, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Then just replace "Perfect Sage Mode" with "True Sage Mode". Is that what is being suggested, a denomination for a Sage Mode with perfectly balanced energies? [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:08, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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::::He doesn't say "true", either... • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 08:52, June 20, 2014 (UTC)
   
In that case, someone should hurry and list Akamaru as a user of senjutsu!!! But wait, since he and Kiba can merge together, that means the latter is a user as well therefore Kiba is a SAGE!!! He mastered Shadow Clone technique as well, the only things left for him to match Naruto are to learn Rasengan and dye his fu*king hair blond to catch up to his rival so they are equal!!! He might as well digest a fu*king fox he catches somewhere so both of them have one in their stomach!
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== Turning to stone ==
   
Senjutsu gives monster power, speed and durability, that's why we are seeing animals lifting buildings and causing destruction in their wake!!! And that's how could Gamakichi stand his own against Manda!!! OMG, UR a genius Fox, truly. And since Kisame is a half-shark, so he is a Sage as well!!!
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In the disadvantage section it says ''If the user draws in too much natural energy, they run the risk of transforming into a toad, and then into stone''. We only know that this applies to those who are Toad Sages right? Now that we also got Snake Sages. --[[User:Kasan94|<font color="#3B0B0B">'''Kasan94'''</font>]] [[File:Nara Symbol.svg|20px]] <sub>[[User_talk:Kasan94|''Talkpage'']]</sub> 21:52, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
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:People went full ham when we tried to draw a full separation between Toad Sages and Snake Sages. If you want to add that the "turn to a stone toad" as a risk only for those training under toads, you are welcome to find to put it into the article.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 11:13, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
Ridicule against ridiculousness is the only way to show how retarded this is. Someone should tell Gamabunta that he also uses Senjutsu, so he could easily smash Kurama and Shukaku like a turd without effort due to his size and this enhancement, but of course he didn't as he was either too stupid or you are wrong, I'm certain it's the latter--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:31, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
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:: Thanks! --[[User:Kasan94|<font color="#3B0B0B">'''Kasan94'''</font>]] [[File:Nara Symbol.svg|20px]] <sub>[[User_talk:Kasan94|''Talkpage'']]</sub> 11:38, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
:What TTF is trying to say is that Sage Mode is a physical manifestation of the use of natural energy, manifestation which frogs do not suffer, that being said, is not Sage Mode, but only senjutsu which is the literal use of natural energy without any physical manifestation being a trait unique to humans called Sage Mode. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 14:42, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
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:::Why would only "toad sages" turn into stone? Natural energy is natural energy--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:03, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
::Ok everyone let's call it a day for now...everyone's grasping at straws...let's wait it out for a week or two...maybe the next few chapters will give an explanation. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 14:52, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
+
::::Because the sentence reads "blah blah blah transforming into a toad, blah blah stone"?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 12:05, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
:::Except both logic and canon itself contradicts what TTF proposes. Sage Mode isn't about bodily transformation at all, the definition is a state which occurs as a result of senjutsu chakra empowerment. Toads can't gain additional toad features. Pigmentation around eye was stated to be a a sign of a true Sage. Can you see any animal characteristics on Hashirama? Of course not, because it isn't mandatory--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:08, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::Like i said...let's call it a day, i'm sure more stuff is gonna surface soon...also Hashi's Sage Mode is bound to be different from the rest for some reason. But let's wait on that as well. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 15:10, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::::Simply to clarify my position here, I'm Cerez and TTF. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 15:22, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
No matter what Dan. you are always with the opposition in discussions, so I wouldn't add much value to that.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:43, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
: In other words, anyone who doesn't agree with Elevenora might as well be silent, because he doesn't care about anyone else's opinion. Arrogance of the highest kind. That's three in favor. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 18:17, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
::Oww for Pete's sake, will you both pack it up...@Fox you're no better when it comes to arrogance and patronizing...@Elve your atittude isn't helping either...right now this discussion is at a stalemate...evidence can go either way...hence why this is so divided...just leave it be and we'll turn back to this with fresh heads and more info...right now this discussion is reaching a forum-level of bickering. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 18:27, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:: Agreed. Perhaps its just best if it let to drop for now. Maybe in a few chapters we'll have a clearer view on some of the issues revolving around Sage Mode, since its going to be returning to the spotlight and we can reopen the issue then. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 18:30, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::What stalemate...? How is the natural pigmentation around toad eyes proof that they can't use sage mode? It's simple, natural energy becomes senjutsu chakra when it is taken inside the body, it then needs to be balanced with the other chakras to prevent turning to stone, and balancing the chakra results in sage mode. You can't use senjutsu techinques which require senjutsu chakra without being in sage mode. — [[User talk:Simant|S<small>im</small>A<small>nt</small>]] 19:14, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:::: There is a stalemate; three users, so far, are for removing the toads, and three users are against it. Or are you suggesting that three against it are more correct in their argument? What he's trying to say is we're dropping it until more is elaborated on. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 19:30, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
You misunderstood, I didn't mean that. Dan.'s opinion is relevant just like anyone else's. I just believe that he rarely has his own, to me it appears like he just picks up a side that is in opposition to the topic's author most of the time for whatever reason. I may be wrong tho.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 20:06, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
:This wiki does NOT resolve discussions based on the number of users for or against. From that point, Dan.Faulkner point of "I'm with ..." does now swing the discussion either way. And, from what I understand of the point Cerez made was that: A. He did not read the entire discussion as it was a HUGE wall of text, and I don't blame him. B. He said they were sages but not in sage mode because they naturally use senjutsu chakra. But, the point is they don't naturally use senjutsu chakra as there are statues of their ancestors who had turned to stone from failing to master it. So really it is just you alone TTF with the point of toads already having natural pigmentation which has been brought up probably 6+ times without you responding. — [[User talk:Simant|S<small>im</small>A<small>nt</small>]] 20:20, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
:Exactly. Have they had Senjutsu chakra by default:
 
* all animals would be freaking powerful
 
* they wouldn't need to absorb further natural energy to empower themselves
 
* they wouldn't need to master anything
 
* Shima and Fukasaku wouldn't be called Great Sages or shi* but every single animal would be Great Sage
 
So all in all, it's just TTF's agenda or rather wishful thinking. --[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 20:26, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
: Yes, you caught me. It's my evil plan to rid the wiki of mentions of animals being able to use Sage Mode -__- With that plan foiled, I'll now spend the next 16 years gathering the tailed beasts, and use my Infinite Tsukuyomi to force the entire wiki to to accept that only humans can use Sage Mode. Because that's what most people do with their free time. I make no apologizes for arguing this. I truly believe its asinine to say that Toads, who are already apart of nature, ''have'' to use a transformation (that's what Sage Mode is. Period. Otherwise, why need a "Mode" to use Senjutsu if you could just use Senjutsu alone?) whose purpose is to bring the user ''in unison'' with nature (something most humans do not possess without training), but again, why use logic? I'm confident we'll be learning more about Senjutsu, as Kishi's got to explain why Senjutsu can affect Obito, and not regular forms of attack, so I'm comfortable waiting until that's explained before really arguing this again, but I ''will'' be bringing it up again and that's that. So Simant, Elve, you can stop foaming at the mouth. I'm done for now. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 05:50, August 12, 2013 (UTC)
 
::First, I've already shown my opinion, what will serve to re-write the same things as TTF and Cerez already written? Only to demonstrate that my opinion is identical. Second, I discuss things that I think deserve to be modified so thtt is why it seems I am always on the opposition side, but is not true. Third, I know and realize facts from other publishers, Therefore my opinion may change or not, one of the rules of the wiki explicitly says we should remain unbiased, is what I try to do, but to avoid further criticism of this kind, I will stop making comments so simple to look more intellectual -_-'.
 
 
For the thousandth time, Senjutsu and Sage Mode are two different things though in Humans' case they derive from one another, which does not happen with toads, because they only absorb and apply Senjutsu chakra without the mutations preventing them from being users of Sage Mode. (Happy @Elv?). [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 09:02, August 12, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Yes, I'm pleased that we didn't have to use brute force in order for TTF to reveal us his mastermind plan on taking over wikia network and injecting his own version of Naruto canon into everyone's head and that you Dan. aren't just his alter ego or a simpleton. Jokes aside, the sad thing about this is that we both have identical evidence, it's only our interpretations of it and logic that differ. I will shut up right away, but the last time I'm going to repeat myself before leaving the talkpage is to say again, Sage Mode isn't about mutations. I wish a nice day to both of you ;) --[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:54, August 12, 2013 (UTC)
 
:Let me make my points really really simple. If you disagree with any of the points (or feel a point is missing), specific which and explain why; '''Otherwise drop this'''.
 
#Senjutsu = group of techniques.
 
#Senjutsu chakra = a mix of physical/natural/spirital energy inside the body.
 
##If senjutsu chakra is not balanced you will turn to stone.
 
#Sage Mode = Mode in which abilities have been empowered by balancing natural energy inside the body with other chakras.
 
##The toad version of this mode causes humans to gain pigmentation around the eyes, but why do you want toads to gain even more pigmentation?
 
##I do not believe fukusaku could lift that large toad statue without his abilities being empowered by such a technique...
 
— [[User talk:Simant|S<small>im</small>A<small>nt</small>]] 12:35, August 12, 2013 (UTC)
 
::All those points make complete sense, but the only setback is that Fukasaku and Shima were not listed in any databook as users, or toads and snakes for our concerne, there is where our view of facts gains strength opposing to yours. I am going to leave it to rest now. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 14:21, August 12, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::The thing here @Dan is while the databooks aren't '''wrong''', they tend to only refer to a limited number of topics, and sometimes tend to lack information...if the databooks had any specific paragraph talking that toads and snakes and whatever did not use Sage Mode, or if they use someother form of a powerup, i'd agree with you and @TTF...the databooks don't deny any of that, they simply don't mention any of it, which like everything else here, makes them neutral...remember...lack of mention =/= confirmation. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 14:28, August 12, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
== Imperfect Toad Sage Mode ==
 
Reading the most recent chapter and watching Naruto's/Minato's senjutsu enhanced Resengan, TTBall, and etc. made mewonder about Jiraiya's [[Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan]] when he went up against Pain, who then preceded to '''absorb''' it with the [[Preta Path]]'s abilities, ''without turning to stone''. While we can conclude that it obviously makes chakra stronger in every way, can we accurately say that he can ''empower/infuse'' his techniques with senjutsu chakra? If so, then it wouldnt make sense that Pain could absorb it, right? [[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 11:32, September 4, 2013 (UTC)
 
:Unless I am mistaken, it was stated in a databook that he infuses his Rasengan with senjutsu chakra. If this means that the Preta Path cannot absorb raw senjutsu chakra is up in the air, but unless the databook is wrong or our information gathering was complete ass then he does empower his abilities.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:46, September 4, 2013 (UTC)
 
::Why wouldn't Pretra be able to absorb it? It's the amount that it absorbs that turned it into stone, not the fact that it did it at all. Naruto stood there and fed it natural energy until the adverse effects started showing up.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:53, September 4, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::The way I understood Naruto's strategy, he deliberately unbalanced the senjutsu chakra when Preta Path was absorbing it. I don't know if once senjutsu chakra is balanced, it stays balance, and it needs a "push" to become unbalanced again. Only the unbalanced chakra turns you to stone. If it required constant maintenance once moulded, I reckon Preta Path would have turned to stone when it absorbed Jiraiya's attack, since it would no longer have Jiraiya's control to remain balanced. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:57, September 4, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
When naruto was held down by the preta path, he used that to his advantage to stabilize himself and absorb more natural energy, so that the preta path can absorb it along with naruto's chakra, to the point where he won't be able to handle it anymore and naturally turn to stone, i dont think there was any unbalance in his senjutsu or we would have otherwise seen the effects of it in naruto's appearence, right??--[[User:Charmanking2198|Charmanking2198]] ([[User talk:Charmanking2198|talk]]) 00:07, September 5, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
I think that the reason why the preta path didnt turn to a frog statue, is because Jiraiya's Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan didnt have enough senjutsu chakra in it , i mean even when he was absorbing naruto's senjutsu directly it took some time before he turned to stone and more absorbation of natural energy from naruto's part.--[[User:Charmanking2198|Charmanking2198]] ([[User talk:Charmanking2198|talk]]) 00:12, September 5, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Preta path didn't absorb senjutsu chakra, he absorbed natural energy. Senjutsu chakra is already balanced, it doesn't require being a sage to absorb it without being turned to stone. [[User:MangekyoSasuke|MangekyoSasuke]] ([[User talk:MangekyoSasuke|talk]]) 05:17, September 5, 2013 (UTC)
 
:Like ↑ he said. Preta Path just absorbed the technique with the senjutsu chakra, meaning that the chakra was already balanced with the natural energy. Now, in the other case, he did turn into a stone because he was absorbing the natural energy that Naruto was gathering and that, in any moment, was balanced. A person just turn into stone if it absorbs too much natural energy, but if the energy is already balanced with the chakra there's no reason to suffer the side effects. [[User:Leo Hatake|<span style="color:Orange; font-size:18px;">Leo</span>]][[User Talk:Leo Hatake|<span style="color:Green; font-size:18px">Hatake</span>]] 05:51, September 5, 2013 (UTC)
 
::Well, if you absorb balanced senjutsu chakra and add it to your own chakra it won't be balanced anymore so... yah side effects would show. — [[User talk:Simant|S<small>im</small>A<small>nt</small>]] 12:16, September 5, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
To handle natural energy you need to blance it with your own chakra, not absorb it already balanced with someone else's chakra, besides how can the preta absorb only natural energy he cant choose to do that and i am sure naruto didnt deliberately unbalance his senjutsu to turn the preta to stone, or we would have otherwise seen the effects of it in naruto's appearence, my opinion is the preta didnt turn to stone when he absorbed jiraiya's ultra big ball rasengan because the nartural energy that was inside that rasengan is far less then nagato's chakra that was inside the preta path's body so he survived it.--[[User:Charmanking2198|Charmanking2198]] ([[User talk:Charmanking2198|talk]]) 13:46, September 5, 2013 (UTC)
 
:But that goes against what has been established about natural energy absorption. Look back to what Fukasaku said. If you absorb too little natural energy, nothing happens, when you absorb too much, you begin turning into a toad, and then to stone. Jiraiya couldn't make a perfect balance between the three energies, and he turned a bit into a toad, meaning that his senjutsu chakra was unbalanced towards having more natural energy. We can't know for sure the absolute total, but as far as ratios go, Jiraya's senjutsu chakra had at least a bit more than 1/3 of natural energy, while Naruto's, whose senjutsu chakra is perfectly balanced has 1/3 of natural energy. You're also forgetting that it's not simply a matter of beginning to absorb the energy. If you can't control the flow, the natural energy will overcome you, turning you to a toad, and then to stone. All Naruto had to do was make sure Preta Path had enough natural energy to a point the natural energy itself would rush in, and turn him to stone. This is why I brought up the matter of the chakra requiring balancing once made or not, because that can explain how the unbalance happened once Preta Path began absorbing it, because Naruto himself didn't display any of the signs he displayed when he still couldn't balance it perfectly. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 14:53, September 5, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
== Bijuu Mode + Sage Mode Image (Chapter 645) ==
 
 
Isn't anyone going to add the image of Naruto combining Sage Mode with Bijuu Mode from this week's chapter.--[[User:Itachi7000|Itachi7000]] ([[User talk:Itachi7000|talk]]) 18:09, September 4, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:Can someone please explain why we really need that added when there is no difference between the image in Chapter 645 and the anime image shown in a latter episode before Nagato's death, apart from small markings? Yang-Kurama made it very clear to use the same combination of Sage Mode / Biju Mode that he used when facing Nagato. It's the same thing. --[[User:Speysider|Speysider]] <sup><small>[[User_talk:Speysider|Talk Page]] | [[User:Speysider/Images|My Image Uploads]] | [[User:Speysider/Tabber Code|Tabber Code]] | [http://youtube.com/LPSajuuk Channel]</small></sup> 19:31, September 4, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:: Agreed. There is no difference, therefore no need to change the picture. Its just Sage Mode in addition to the Nine-Tails' chakra being used. Nothing more and nothing less. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 20:36, September 4, 2013 (UTC)
 

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Madara Edit

He basically just stole it from Hashirama, but he also stated that he managed to master it very quickly, so he should be listed as a user, right? Norleon (talk) 12:49, December 4, 2013 (UTC)

I think it is the same with his Wood Release. It doesn't matter if the ability was stolen or acquired through body modifications, if he is using it, then he is an user. Shadow Abyss (talk) 13:27, December 4, 2013 (UTC)
I think the situation is a bit subtler than that. With Wood Release, all Madara needed was a physical piece of Hashirama to be grafted in his body. For Sage Mode, even though he already had the physical implant, he had to go to Hashirama. He drained Hashirama of his senjutsu chakra (which I find very odd, since I don't recall Hashirama being in Sage Mode the last few chapters). He didn't make the senjutsu chakra himself (as far as we know), we don't even know if Madara knows the mechanics of how senjutsu chakra comes to be (though I believe he does). We don't consider people Naruto gave tailed beast chakra to be jinchūriki, so I don't think Madara should be considered a Sage Mode user, even if he's using the senjutsu chakra. The whole situation is murky. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:45, December 4, 2013 (UTC)
Hello sempai. In regards to Madara i would have to disagree a bit...in an earlier chapter, he said he was going to take Hashi' senjutsu powers in chapter 647. Now in this one Madara says how the power of the senjutsu chakra was dissapointing and he believed it would be harder to control it. Not only that, but we say the perfect Sage pattern appear in Madara's chest face. Also we know that if unless senjutsu chakra can be balanced, the user will display animal traits and eventually turn into an animal statue. Being a sage is being one who can balance and control senjutsu chakra within himself. From where i see it, Madara simply took a shortcut to attain the same result. Darksusanoo (talk) 00:51, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
But there's something that has never been clarified: does senjutsu chakra require active balancing once it is made? I mean, do you have to keep balancing the spiritual, physical and natural energies once the senjutsu chakra is made, or once made in the perfect ratio, the chakra is stable? I also find it very odd that it was only the Hashirama face that got the markings, and that Madara himself didn't get them. And I repeat, Madara himself has not made the chakra as far as we know. We don't list every shinobi Naruto gave Kurama's chakra a host, because the source of the chakra is not in them. Madara may have a Hashirama graft, but the graft was not the source of the chakra he is using. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:40, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
But as Madara said, he did had to control the senjutsu chakra, even if that took less effort than what he originally assumed. Also i believe once the initial control is gained the chakra remains stable, but as we all know senjutsu chakra doesn't renew itself so for sages, there is no chakra source, they have to take the energy from outside sources and balance it with their own. If Madara hadn't gain control over the chakra, he'd turn into an animal like the Preta Path when he absorbed Naruto's chakra. And it was defined in the article that control (even if imperfect) over senjutsu chakra is what makes a sage. Also the Kurama comparison doesn't really fit here sempai, since we are talking about two very different types of chakra. Graft or no graft, that face is a part of Madara's body, thus its part of Madara himself and as such anything derived from it is Madara's own at this point.
  • Another little side detail to add to this is Madara's insane sensing prowess after his revival. Given how Uchiha senses are restricted to visual/dojutsu ones and how once that is lost, their battle prowess takes a nosedive. (Izuna's death and Madara's final defeat against Hashi comes to mind.) I ask...how did Madara managed to dance around a Sharingan/sword master's attack, sense the peculiar traits of Sasuke's Sharingan, all while being effectively blind? The only type of sensing prowess this strong is that of a sage...remember Kabuto vs Sasuke and Itachi? Kabuto was also blind to prevent genjutsu and still outfought the brothers due his sensing in Sage Mode. Darksusanoo (talk) 01:57, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

The Preta Path case isn't the best example, since the zoom in Naruto when he opened his eyes sort of implied he himself introduced an imbalance in the senjutsu chakra while it was being absorbed. And it's not the senjutsu chakra per se that transforms one into an animal and then a statue, it's the overwhelming natural energy that does if you can't control its flow. Regarding sensing, Madara has been noted a sensor for a while now, and not due to his eyes. I goes back to at least when he first detected Hashirama's and made that psycho face. He's been listed as a sensor at least since then. Kabuto wasn't exactly blind. His brille made a filter to his eyes, you could still see the snake pupils behind them when they were lowered. Base Madara already had sensing. If anything, I'd say that the sage chakra is boosting an ability he already had. This is similar to Orochimaru's case. We know Oro's cursed seals contain his senjutsu chakra, but those who use his cursed seals are not Sage Mode users. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:13, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

If Naruto had introduced the imbalance, the perfect sage pattern wouldn't have appeared on his face...it would look like Jiraiya's pattern if anything and in no way was it implied that Naruto gave the Preta Path imbalanced chakra...if anything he overloaded him with senjutsu chakra to turn him into a statue, but the statue turned into stone because it couldn't handle the senjutsu chakra. Yes Madara is a sensor, but to the degree of compensating the loss of his dojutsu, a major pillar in the Uchiha's fighting style? Kabuto did blind himself...he said at least once or twice to Itachi that he had cut off his eyesight to prevent eye based genjutsu. Why are you bringing Oro's cursed seals, when we know those were derived from Jugo's KKG...which is a different thing...however Madara did display the pattern signs of perfect sage control and remarked that he had to exert control over the chakra...all traits of a sage. Darksusanoo (talk) 02:23, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
The focus on Naruto only happened when the shading around his eyes was all but over. Introducing an imbalance in the chakra would have snowballed in the Preta Path, leading to the petrification. Regarding Madara's sensing, what I'm saying is that even if he is using sage chakra, he's not using Sage Mode itself. I brought Orochimaru up because despite the cursed seals coming from Jūgo, the explicitly say that the cursed seals contain Orochimaru's senjutsu chakra. It's in the pages that show Orochimaru taking back his chakra from Kabuto. I still don't see pigmentation around Madara's own eyes, which according to Fukasaku are the sign of a true sage. Madara essentially took sage chakra someone else had a put in a graft battery. I'm saying that Madara is a similar situation to Orochimaru in which one has senjutsu chakra, but not Sage Mode itself. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:13, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
People keep saying that Hashi's face is a graft. Has no one ever assumed it was a mutation caused by the introduction of the First's Dna into one's body? Madara himself said that he infused the DNA into his wounds. So that's not a graft, its a mutation side effect, he didn't build and plaster a second Hashi face into his body, neither did Danzo. Its like having an extra limb...just because it's extra, what's done with it is still yours, your doing, possession and responsability. Also wasn't a similar discussion brought up, when someone wanted to separate senjutsu from sage mode? Wasn't it concluded that excluding Jugo/Oro's seals due to them being KKG-bound, that regular individuals were required to enter Sage Mode in order to use senjutsu. So unless you wanna unleash that box of scorpions again. The sage pattern appeared in Madara's face, in this case his second face...and even if he did what you say he did sempai, he's still a sage at this point, since he still had to balance and control the senjutsu chakra he took in without the aid of a KKG...it maybe an atypical case, but the traits exibited by Madara are more aligned with Sage Mode than Sage/Cursed Seal Transformation.Darksusanoo (talk) 03:29, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
Madara is not using Sage Mode. He stole Hashirama's chakra and is using his "Hashirama face", if you will, to use Hashirama's Sage Mode. Therefore he is not a user. All this about him "controlling the chakra" is irrelevant and seems to be nothing more than a desperate attempt to list him as a user. It is A) Not his Senjutsu chakra, B) Not his Sage Mode, and C) Not his own body controlling it, but the "Hashirama face" doing it for him. He should not be listed whatsoever until he is shown using it on his own. Its absolutely no different that Kakashi and the other shinobi using Naruto's Kyūbi chakra after he gave it to them. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 04:08, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
So by that standart, please remove him (and everyone who's not Hashirama) as a Wood Release user, since he can only use it because of the "Hashirama face". Sure just toss aside one of the main pillars of sage mode/senjutsu, which is actually managing to not get turned into an animal statue, that makes perfect sense. "Not his own body controlling it"? Last time i checked...Hashi's face isn't detachable from Madara's body like a Lego piece, nor is it a tool of any kind, but a mutation caused by the integration of the First's DNA...Madara may be using Hashi's face, but that face is a part of Madara's body now, like anyother of his limbs so you saying he's using the face is like saying he's using the left arm instead of the right to swing a blade...its all part of his body...not originally sure, but it is now...that's like saying that a person who has an extra limb isn't responsible/can't control what that extra limb does...Darksusanoo (talk) 04:29, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
The precedent Kabuto created with his chest snake means that if you are in control of some freaky growth that can use some other technique, you are using that technique. So yeah, lets not try and think to stupid on this one. Madara is using Hashirama's Sage Mode, he gets listed as using Sage Mode.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 04:34, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
No disrespect intended when I say this, but that has to be the most asinine reasoning for listing someone as a user I've ever heard. With Wood Release and Kabuto's snake... thing, the genetics of the person using the technique were apart of their new user; Wood Release in Danzo, Obito, Yamato, etc., and the Sound Four's in Kabuto. We saw him injecting the blood. Madara cannot use Sage Mode. He didn't absorb natural energy from the air and mix it with his chakra to make Senjutsu chakra, he stole the Senjutsu chakra Hashirama already had and used it through HASHIRMA's body parts that had been grafted into him. How the hell is that, in the sweet name of the baby Jesus, usage of Sage Mode? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 06:58, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

@Dark, to clarify, the Hash-chest-face is Kabuto's work as confirmed in the latest chapter, it didn't happen to Madara as he had gotten Hash's cells at all, just white skin. For the Sage Mode, yes, he is a user I believe, but if he should be listed as a Sage is questionable. As stated, it's the Hash-chest-face that has gotten the facial markings, not his own. And THIS IS EXACTLY why I brought up a while ago a forum about us listing users having KKG powers or otherwise as either them being temporary (transplant/experiment) or permanent (blood trait). So what does that tell us, true, he is no less user of Sage Mode now than Danzo was of Wood Release. Even tho he can do it only thanks to a foreign matter attached to his body, he had to control it and managed to and as such is a user. But a Sage has to be able to sense, absorb and balance natural energy himself, which he hasn't done. So short story: user of sage mode- yes but not a sage, reverse case of Orochimaru.--Elveonora (talk) 13:17, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

Mhm. The Spoken word. Glad to see you editing again Elveo. Sorry to just jump into this discussion. But i agree.--Senju SymbolKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 14:37, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
Asinine it may be Ten Tailed Fox, but it is what it is. He has a freaky construct of Hashirama's face on his chest, he absorbed Hashirama's senjutsu chakra and is able to manipulate it under his own will. He himself may not be in Sage Mode, but he is using it. Unlike Danzo, Madara is in control of his stolen ability, Danzo was not. WHen he got messed up the Wood Release ran wild.
That being said, he is not a sage because he didn't actively learn the art of senjutsu he just sucked it out of one person.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 16:18, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
I know he's not a Sage, but he doesn't even seem to be in the least bit familiar with Senjutsu chakra. "So this is the coveted Senjutsu chakra." Doesn't say to me he even knows what he's doing. I mean, its like Omnibender said. Naruto gave everyone in the Alliance Kurama's chakra. Shoot, the Rookies even used a Tailed Beast Mode cloak. We're not listing them as psuedo-jinchūriki because they controlled that chakra, did we? No. Its no different here. I just don't like the faulty, paper-thin layer of logic that some seem to be using as an excuse to list him as a Sage Mode user. He's not. But, if that ends up being the consensus, I won't fight it. Just seems like a really big mistake to me. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 16:30, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
Madara said that he thought he would have a hard time manipulating it. Might just be better to wait for Raws though.~UltimateSupreme 17:04, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

TU3, what does Kabuto's navel snake have anything to do with this? The snake was never implicated in his use of Sage Mode, only in the skills he acquired from Orochimaru. He already had the snake while not in Sage Mode. The thing that sets Madara apart in this case, is that this isn't simply a case of grabbing a physical part of a third party and having access to its abilities. Madara already had the Hashigraft, and yet he had to go grab the senjutsu chakra from Hashirama himself. If he's at least aware of how senjutsu works, he'd certainly Gary Stu his way into mastering the whole process in half a heartbeat, like the overachiever he is, making the whole theft of the chakra pointless. Another example of non-use of technique, is Rasengan. Rookie 9 each took a Rasengan and slammed Obito with it, but we don't list them as users. Madara is the same thing. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:51, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

Should it not be noted that Hashirama's SM increases regeneration? As Madara's wound from Sasuke's 'Kusanagi' explicitly healed up within a very short time after adopting the pseudo-SM. Maybe this is what Madara was referring to about Hashirama's Byakugou-esque healing? Pesa123456789 (talk) 19:25, December 8, 2013 (UTC)

Hash cells in themselves heal and shi* as shown with Obito, nothing with senjutsu. But I thought what healed Madara was QB chakra anyway--Elveonora (talk) 22:03, December 8, 2013 (UTC)

By the Light this is still going?
The snake has nothing to do with Sage Mode. I was pointing out that Kabuto pulled out Orochimaru and the Sound Five from the naval snake and we count him as having used their techniques and their kekkei genkai. Ergo, Madara pulling out Sage Mode and putting it into his Hashichestface and as he said he can manipulate it to mean means, unless we just decide to say "eff it" and decided just because all hate Madara that he isn't using Sage Mode, he is using Sage Mode.
And I thought i brought up the Rookie 9 thing. The Rookie Nine actually didn't do a damn thing. They jumped into Naruto's chakra, Naruto formed the Rasengans and all his friends did was push. They ain't manipulate nothing. It was the same thing when Naruto pushed Killer B's tailed beast ball through 30 barriers.
Now that being said, I'm already bored witht his discussion. If we want to say Madara is not using Sage Mode then I'm willing to just call everyone out for bullcrap but let it be removed without a fuss anyway so long as we also take into account Kabuto's actions with his weird body modifications.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 02:37, December 9, 2013 (UTC)

But the difference with Kabuto is that all those techniques, implants or not, originated within him, in his body. Madara already had the Hashirama face in him, and even them he had to go take the senjutsu chakra. That is what I think constitutes the Orochimaru-like situation of using senjutsu chakra, without actually using Sage Mode. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:12, December 10, 2013 (UTC)

Questionable Content Edit

For some time now, the article has been broken up into sections more or less stating that there are different Sage Modes. In the past I've questioned the source of this, and I never felt I was given adequate justification, and certainly not in the vein that is usually demanded on the wiki. There seems to be zero mention in the manga by ANY practitioner of Sage Mode that what Hashirama and Kabuto do is any different, in terms of the basal technique, to what Naruto does. Now, one thing offered up is that Kabuto and Hashirama have different designs around their eyes, and that Fukasaku noted that Naruto had the eye designs of a true sage. Well, that's not accurate actually. All Fuksasaku said (Ch. 418 pg. 5) is that the dark pigmentation around the eyes are the mark of a true Sage, he never made mention or note of it being specifically a mark of a Toad Sage, or anything else, just that of one who has perfected Sage Mode. And given both Hashi and Kabuto fit that description, and made no mention of using some specific brand of SM, I'd put in my suggestion that the article be fixed to remove a lot of unfounded assumptions one must make for it to make sense. Thoughts? Skitts (talk) 07:29, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

At the very least, it could be separated by user, so we could say "Naruto Uzumaki's Sage Mode" or "Kabuto Yakushi's Sage Mode" instead of made-up names like Toad Sage Mode and Snake Sage Mode which imply different types. The current implication that each version has different strengths and weaknesses also seems unnecessary. Stating things like Kabuto's and Hashirama's not having enhanced durability because Sasuke's sword could cut them seems like a big assumption; Pain's rods could pierce Naruto after all.--BeyondRed (talk) 07:39, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
I really don't understand how there can be different sage modes. The sage mode is simply the state of ones body when it absorbed natural energy. There are no different kinds of natural energy one can absorb and we don't have the slightest explanation for why the absorbtion of the same energy results in different looks. So yes, I agree with Beyond, we should differ by user, not by looks. Seelentau 愛 09:34, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Agreed Seelentau. It is just balancing natural energy with one's own inner energies after all. I think one thing we might do is simply mention that all known perfect sages (among humans anyway) had different designs around and on the eyes, but they all possessed the distinctive mark of a perfect Sage that Fukasaku mentioned. It avoids all extra assumptions but mentions how each user differs aethestically. But should we split it by user? I can't really think of anything in particular that Kabuto or Hashirama did with the form itself that was noticeably different from Naruto. They each just seemed to power-up their techniques. Suggestions? Skitts (talk) 13:44, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Hey Skitts long time no see, I was wondering where you have gone to ^_ And yes, thank you for bringing up again one of my favorite unresolved and ignored topics!!! Now, all we have to do is await for naysayers and unnamed sysops to come and paste a giant red NO on our foreheads to prove their might and ignorance. I'm not having anyone specific in particular on my mind of course :D Just generally speaking about those who disagree. And yes, there should be a single section listing all the benefits of Sage Mode, not for "different" modeS since there are none other and a removal of the animal labels as well. There is just this weird phenomenon for those who were taught by snakes turn into snakes, those that by toads into toads etc. so there's where the assumptions of different modes come from--Elveonora (talk) 13:50, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Hey. Real life (school and work), hobbies and forgetfulness kept me away. I still checked in every so often, just never got involved. xD Anyway, I'd question whether individuals who were taught by snakes would turn into snakes. We've never seen Kabuto loose control of natural energy, so the safest assumption is that he would turn into a toad as Naruto nearly did and the Preta Path actually did. Kabuto was already a snake, after all. :) Sage Mode just seemed to enhance his snake-related abilities, which is unsurprising given Fukasaku mentioned one's abilities are increased by it (ex: Naruto's healing rate and stamina). Skitts (talk) 14:45, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
But Preta Path having turned stone toad statue is a problem, isn't it? This for one gives evidence to their assertion of "animal specific" modes. But why would Kabuto have turned into a toad had he failed to master it? That would have implied Sage Mode having origins with the toads. Only good thing is that if that were true, it would actually take away credibility to their assertion of different modes, because it would mean every single Sage Mode is "toad sage mode" So basically both evidence for and against appear to be contradictory to the explanation as why that happens.
If everyone turns into a toad no matter what, it means a single Sage Mode, if it differs from person to person (which we are yet to see) then that doesn't necessarily mean many different modes :) So I think there's more evidence for a single Sage Mode--Elveonora (talk) 14:57, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
There seems to be no need to divide it into sections. All are basically the same. Probably a Known Sage Modes or something similar in the end might work.--~UltimateSupreme 15:04, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
@Elveonora The Preta Path example is the one that best supports the idea of a single Sage Mode. Remember, all Naruto did was pass on natural energy (or maybe senjutsu chakra) to him through his absorption technique, and the Preta Path, who had no known affiliation with any Sage location, still turned into a toad. And this doesn't indicate necessarily that Sage Mode originated with the toads (although it wouldn't really matter), as Fukasaku just said that a toad transformation and pretrification were the natural effects of not controlling the natural energy, not that it had anything to do with who Naruto was affiliated with when learning it. So given Kabuto drew in natural energy for the mode as all Sages do, the best assumption is that improper use would result in a toad transformation.
Well, I guess I'll get to it then. Or should we wait for more yays and nays? Skitts (talk) 15:35, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Maybe we should look at the broader picture of natural energy. The Shinju, natural energy embodied, originally a tree, has taken upon MANY form. Shapeshifting/transformation is a trait of natural energy it would appear. Same for Jugo's Clan and Curse Mark users, they all have different forms. And as such I don't like the notion of every Senjutsu School dropout turning into a toad and would like to ignore the Preta Path instance altogether. Perhaps Kishi didn't give it as much thought as we do. I like to convince myself that the form they take is dependent on their personality traits. This would explain why for example Jugo, who has unstable mind can shapeshift into many things, while Curse Mark users who did not get the madness part all have just a single form.--Elveonora (talk) 15:51, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Well now, that's the kind of speculation we're trying to remove from the article. :) What the Shinju does is kind of irrelevant here, it's the origin of all chakra too after all, and chakra has all sorts of uses. We already know there's a shapeshifting element to natural energy, just look at what happened to Jiraiya. Jugo's clan is something of a special case, in that it's their Kekkai Genkai that allows them to do shapeshifting after absorbing a little natural energy, and Orochimaru's Curse Marks are just an imitation of that. And not to sound mean, but it doesn't really matter what you want to be the case, but Fukasaku did note that a toad transformation and petrification is the drawback to improper Sage Mode, with no qualifications. The Preta Path instance cannot be ignored because it was a demonstration of that, with Fukasaku confirming that when it happened. Oh, and madness IS a part of the Curse Mark. Remember, one of the Sound Four told Sasuke that if he remained in the Curse Mark Leve 2 state for too long, he would begin to loose control mentally (Jugo's clan) and the energy would take over his body (like improper Sage Mode). Skitts (talk) 16:22, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

It was said that they would become like Orochimaru, not like Jugo. And I know we are trying to remove speculation, I was speaking hypothetically what would fit and make sense to me. The article just needs to be streamlined without actually removing anything. @Seel, would you look at it?--Elveonora (talk) 16:53, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

Sometimes I think we're the most backward wikia. I really wish that we could agree upon one thing, stick with it, and wait for clarification. Instead we beat dead horses, and those amongst us that were enlightened by JesusBuddhAllaHindugods but walks amongst us lowly humans finds every opportunity to undermine the wiki they can't walk away from. Not you Turry, how u doin~
Any way, we all are supposed to know by now that Sage Mode is just that - Sage mode. We tried to differentiate them because they aren't all the same. Modes learned through different methods reflect differently on persons. Toads look like toads, snakes look more like snakes. Are we supposed to ignore that? Are we supposed to differentiate Naruto's Mode from Jiraiya's even though they both learned from toads? To me the sections explains each usage as accurately as possible. If the pseudo-titles are that much of a bother, they can be changed but we can't lump them all together and ignore the obvious differences. --Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 17:17, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
That's the thing, Kabuto looked like that even without Sage Mode, it just gave him horns. Curse Mark gave Kimimaro- the bone guy, more bones, yet we don't consider that to be the Curse Mark's specific trait. We don't have any reason to believe that without Kabuto's prior experiments he would have looked any different than Naruto, with just the eyes changing. So the only "anomaly" is Hashirama, he we can say has "specific" mode until we learn more. But the animal labels irk me, also there's no reason to repeat "improved strength, speed etc." for each users, it's same for all.--Elveonora (talk) 17:26, January 13, 2014 (UTC)


This whole thing is problematic entirely because of Kabuto as far as I can tell. He's the only one that has other animal traits in Sage Mode, but one can't forget that he was a snake beforehand. My only problem is that it seems the only real reason we have the article like it is because Kabuto shenanigans. And I'm good Cerez. How goes you browski? Skitts (talk) 17:30, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we already have "toad sage mode" before Kabuto was even revealed to be a Sage Mode user?--Elveonora (talk) 17:32, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Nope. Skitts (talk) 17:34, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Cerez reflects my issue with lumping all of the Sage Mode styles together. Basically when you want to get down to it, yes there everything is Sage Mode. But then you get into the seperate styles: Naruto and Jiraiya learned Sage Mode from the toads. Kabuto and Orochimaru learned Sage Mode from the snakes (tho Kabuto was the only one who could make actual use of it).--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 21:26, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

"He's the only one that has other animal traits in Sage Mode" ~ Skitts

Not true, Jiraiya's hands, feet and face all took on toad like traits because he wasn't a "Perfect" sage. At the same time, in Sage mode, both Jiraiya and Naruto's eyes gain horizontal slits, whereas Kabuto gained vertical slits, which, given what happened with Kurama's power and sage mode, if the horizontal slit is indicative of Sage mode, and his eyes had the slit as a result of experimentation, shouldn't he has + shaped eyes too? Jugo, as the only example of his clan's ability without tampering, has no defined animal trait, but unsurpassed transformation properties compared to the rest. Hashirama's Sage form comes with markings unlike the others, but no particular animal trait or transformation from what we've seen. While all these characters possess a Sage Mode, or in Jugo's case a transformation related to the absorption of natural energy, none of them except the two trained by Toads share traits beyond facial marking, so saying that all Sage modes are the same is a lot more inaccurate than splitting them up. Even if they are mechanically the same, superficial things like the different facial markings and mutation from failure are seemingly independent of one another.--Hawkeye2701 (talk) 21:47, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

Hawkeye, you do realize I was talking about people who complete Sage Mode, right? Hence why I only brought up Naruto, Kabuto and Hashirama in that instance. Further, Kabuto ALREADY had vertical slits before Sage Mode, as well as most of all the animal traits. All he gained were horns as far as we can tell. Saying that all Sage Modes are the same is the most canonical thing to say given statements by Fukasaku that I've already mentioned, namely that the defining mark of a Sage is dark pigmentation around the eyes. He didn't make not of any particular design, but of dark pigment alone, which both Hashirama and Kabuto certainly had. And come on man, NO WHERE have we seen mutation from misuse be anything other than turning into a toad (i.e Preta Path and Naruto). We've never seen Kabuto or Hashi loose control, so you've no leg to stand on for your case.
@TU3 What do you mean by different styles? Different teachers sure, but I can't recall any display of anything specific to a particular user of Sage Mode, aside from individual techniques. Skitts (talk) 22:12, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
It means exactly as it sounds. While there is one Sage Mode, there are three known styles of it: Toad, which Naruto and Jiraiya use, Snake, which Kabuto can do and Orochimaru knows about, and Whatever-the-Eff-Hashirama-Does which Hashirama does. Trying to change it to imply that each Sage Mode is unique to the user implies that the toads at Mount Myōboku can teach someone how to grow brille over their eyes, or a snake from the Ryochi caves can teach someone Frog Kata.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 22:49, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
I could have sworn at one point that the article had an I commented mention that there was no such things as Toad or Snake Sage mode and that they are simply there out of convenience of us chronicling the information. The longer titles like "Sage Mode - taught by toads/snakes" would be bad for linking them in other articles.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 01:59, January 14, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, so I figured I'd get to this since there seems to be basic agreement. So my thought is to essentially remove the noticeable implication that there are distinct-ish Sage Modes, and merge them, give the general effects that Sagee Mode has been confirmed to have. Kabuto didn't display anything fundamentally or substantively different from Naruto, the Toads or Hashirama, so we seem good there. I think the only important thing to note is, as I said earlier, that while all of the designs of completed Sage Mode users differ, yet they all possessed the distinctive marker of a true sage that Fukasaku mentioned (dark pigment around the eyes). We good? We good. Skitts (talk) 01:42, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

The subsections are probably still neccesary to some extent. It could be organised like the Susanoo article - a general overview talking about how it works and what it does (enhanced jutsu, strength, speed, perception, etc.), then subsections for Jiraiya, Naruto, Kabuto, and Hashirama. The subsections could talk about things specific to each user, like Frog Kata, Muki Tensei, Jiraiya forming toad feet, etc. as well as Naruto's method of entering the Sage Mode. This way no unofficial terms are used at all, but all the information is still present and organised.--BeyondRed (talk) 02:34, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
As stated in the edit summary, yeah the last comment (Cerez) implies the discussion was still moving, it just fell off. Good job starting it up again. Maybe this time we can actually get to a conclusion.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 03:12, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
EDIT:And maybe simply just undo my edit and reinstate Skitts. From my first pass of it it doesn't seem wrong, if only a tad formated oddly (It looks weird to me. Probably fine, just looks strange to my old man eyes.)
And for reference, there is Skitt's version of the page Click me.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 03:17, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
Do note that I did all of this because i do like to get a clear end of a discussion. If nobody does say anything, I will consider this the end and make Skitt's version official anyway.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 03:19, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict times 2) @BeyondRed Huh? Muki Tensei is a technique, not a special ability of Kabuto's Sage Mode, Frog Kata is just a fighting-style and Naruto doesn't do anything special in entering Sage Mode. Those subsections are somewhat redundant. The only useful one you mentioned would be the one for Jiraiya, but only because his is the only imperfect transformation we've seen. The others seem superfluos, and the way it is currently lends itself to the unmistakeable implication that Hashiram and Kabuto are doing something distinct from Naruto, which we have no evidence for. The current setup itself is using unofficial terms. @TU3 It did? All that Cerez seems to be saying is some of the rationale behind the usage of the terms. If he was, my mistake. Skitts (talk) 03:21, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

I didn't mean to imply Frog Kata was exclusive to Naruto and that, say, Hashirama couldn't potentially use it because his Sage Mode looks different, that's the sort of speculation that is the current problem. Rather, I think it should be clear that while nothing states other users with "different" Sage Modes can't do certain things (like Frog Kata or Muki Tensei), nothing confirms they can either. At the very least, the article should still have images and descriptions of the four different Sage Modes we've seen, doesn't really have to be in subsections, but that could be a way of organising it so the main section doesn't feel cluttered.--BeyondRed (talk) 05:26, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

Why is it that no one here has ever thought of there being different types of natural energy? Natural energy comes from the ground and the air, emanating from plants and animals, right? So why wouldn't the natural energy be different? Mount Myoboku and Ryuuchi cave both have large populations of toads and snakes respectively, right? So would it not make sense for most of the natural energy to be emanating from them? And that those who train in those places, learn to absorb those specific energies? Has anyone here noticed that almost every cursed seal release resembles actual animals? (If not, go to Orochimaru's Juinjutsu and look at the prison picture). And how Jugo, one that can absorb natural energy innately, can change into anything he wants? Am I seriously the only one here that knows how to put two and two together to realize that what animal you transform into is dependent on what energy you learn to absorb, and other than that, the abilities are the same? Because the way I see it, its the only logical conclusion, and the fact that there are so many that don't understand that disturbs me. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 05:45, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

I actually have thought of that exact thing before and hope it does turn out to be the explanation, but it's still speculation. We can't but information into the article if it can't be referenced or even directly implied.--BeyondRed (talk) 06:30, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
That doesn't explain why Kabuto turns into a snake-dragon when there are no snakes around. The same goes for Naruto. How can he turn into a frog sage when there are no frogs around, whose nature energy would be absorbed by Naruto? Seelentau 愛 09:17, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
Wrong :P Naruto ate a toad and Kabuto had a snake merged with him... /solved?--Elveonora (talk) 21:35, January 24, 2014 (UTC)
Naisu try but no. Seelentau 愛 21:59, January 24, 2014 (UTC)

On topic, Ulti's/Skitt's version looks very good, one more time should it be compared and checked and unless someone will come to disagree, used asap.--Elveonora (talk) 22:57, January 24, 2014 (UTC)

The only thing I would want to add is that training under a certain animal leads to a different style. I don't like how Skitt's version reads as if Kabuto just became a snake Sage for no reason at all. In fact I don't think it even mention the Ryuchi Caves at all.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 23:02, January 24, 2014 (UTC)
As much information should be preserved, just without bias, speculation and vagueness. In the advantages part, it should be added that the user may learn senjutsu techniques unique to his/her animal species, like frog kata from toads, light and stone no jutsu from snakes and so on.--Elveonora (talk) 23:07, January 24, 2014 (UTC)

@BeyondRed Huh? Again, Muki Tensei is just senjutsu, and Frog Kata just a fighting-style. Saying there's no evidence other Sages can't use them is absurd given the series explanations on what ninjustus and chakra manipulation is. If you have the necessary skills to us e a technique, barring any genetic requirement, the technique can be used. Muki Tensei is just senjutsu, ergo other Sages can use it if they knew how, given what we know about chakra manipulation; Frog Kata is useable by any true Sage according to Fukasaku (right after Naruto first entered a completed SM), provided they've learned how.

  • As for why Kabuto changes, that's a little speculatory. My version of the article does note that particular oddity about Kabuto without speculating as to the reason. If we absolutely have to, the most canonical thing would be to go to what Fukasaku said about Sage Mode boosting one's natural abilities. He noted that both Sage Mode and Kurama's chakra boosted Naruto's healing rate to absurd levels. This could account for why Kabuto progresses. He was already a snake, and SM's boosting shows true what Fuksaku said about SM, by making him a 'dragon'. The other relevant problem is Kabuto's DNA tomfoolery, so I doubt even Fukasaku would be exactly sure why. And Kabuto was already a snake, so asking why SM made him a snake is nonsensical. :p

But again, that's more speculatory than I'm comfortable putting in the article as definite.Skitts (talk) 03:42, January 25, 2014 (UTC)

Bump--Elveonora (talk) 14:34, January 30, 2014 (UTC)

Already said my peace. Skitts version is fine, I would just suggest adding different areas appear to form different styles.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 14:36, January 30, 2014 (UTC)
Action > words :P--Elveonora (talk) 14:20, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

Just wanting to say those who revised this page did a excellent job. That is all :) --Questionaredude (talk) 19:59, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Surprised no one mentioned, at all in this discussion that the reason why each Sage Mode should be separate is because each seem to enhance the user's physical abilities differently. Toad Sage Mode gives Naruto, Minato, and Jiraiya enhanced durability, speed, and strength from the feats they've shown. Snake Sage Mode enhances maneuverability, speed and agility, while keeping durability and strength the same as shown in Kabuto. And Hashirama's Sage Mode grants increased endurance and enhances his regeneration, as shown through Madara. All have shown different physical aspects that are actually improved.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 03:42, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
Because that is your opinion and has no place in this article. When someone mentions that Toad/Hashirama/Snake Sage Mode has any variations between the augmentation they offer, then we'll add it, but we don't just add what we come up with off the top of our head to articles. That's called speculation. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 03:59, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
I think you need to look up what speculation actually is. Kishimoto has been distinct on the physical enhancements Sage Mode gave those from the different disciplines. Do you see Kabuto tossing boss summons around? Especially when he failed to send Itachi fly back with a strike? Or Hashirama/Madara doing the same thing? And the durability varies wildly: only Madara's Chakra Disruption Blades have pierced Toad Sage Mode skin, while both Hashirama's and Kabuto's have been pierced by a normal blade. Seriously, feats show it. I've even added them in the past. Not everything needs to be spelled out, this is a logical conclusion.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 04:30, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

That's just your assumption. By the same logic (since Naruto could lift and throw a giant boulder) he could have just thrown Pain away from Konoha, sending him on a tour around the world, yet he didn't.--Elveonora (talk) 17:24, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

Slug Sage Mode Edit

Due to the fact that Sage Mode can be learned from the Toad Sages at Mount Myoboku, from the Snake Sage at the Ryuchi Cave, and we have learned that the slug Katsuyu comes from the Shikkotsu Forest. A place stated to be equally famous to Mount Myoboku and the Ryuchi Cave. It is heavily implied that there are slug sages at the Shikkotsu Forest where one can learn Sage Mode from them. Hashirama Senju, is capable of using a third unknown Sage Mode. Considering his granddaughter, Tsunade, can summon slugs and is called the Slug Princess it is likely that his Sage Mode is the Sage Mode learned from the slugs. Also due to the fact that slugs appear to be aligned with healing and Madara Uchiha stated that he had obtained Hashirama's regenerative abilities (after obtaining his Sage Mode) would this not further imply that he had learned his Sage Mode from the slugs? Also due to the whole toad, snake, and slug symbolism it would make sense. I know it isn't a fact so it cannot be stated. But I think it has enough evidence to be added into the trivia section perhaps? Thoughts anyone? Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 03:46, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

For all we know, Hashirama didn't even learn Sage Mode from an animal. We don't know what he summons if he even summons an animal to begin with. There is no evidence. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 04:00, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

The only known ways so far is via an animal. So where else could he learn it? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 04:25, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

It was stated there was 3 special places that taught senjutsu i believe, the bone forest place, mt. miyoboku and ryuchi cave and orochimaru said the slugs come from bone forest place or whatever. so yes it is VERY likely and possible that that is where Hashi learned it, but it can only be added when confirmed. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 04:42, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

No, it said that the "Ryūichi Cave is a place of equal fame to Myōbokuzan and the Shikkotsu Forest". ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 04:44, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

That that's the name, but he is right Senjutsu is only known to have been taught or stolen like in madara's case. It was also hinted at one point that you did not need a contract to find these places or learn senjutsu there. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 04:49, March 7, 2014 (UTC)


Yes, that's true. But the fact that toads come from Mount Myoboku and there is toad sages there, snakes come from the Ryuchi Cave and there is a snake sage there, and we have learned that there is a Shikkotsu Forest and that the slug Katsuyu comes from there. Especially since Hashirama has a third unknown Sage Mode and so far the previous two sage modes have been Toad and Snake, in order to keep the toad, snake, and slug symbolism it would make since for Hashirama to have a "Slug Sage Mode". But it's true it isn't a fact or officially confirmed. Which is why I suggested adding it to trivia. There is more evidence and similar abilities that hint at it being Slug Sage Mode. So that's why I believe it should be listed in the trivia section. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 04:55, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

My point is, until we have definite proof, we're steering away from speculation. I actually think Hashirama's Sage Mode is related to the slugs myself, but, professionally, that just doesn't belong in an article. Just because Tsunade is his granddaughter doesn't mean he shares her summons, that he has a contract with a slug (the reference you mention, Itachi, is anime-only, and therefore we must throw that out with regards to manga information. You need a contract to summon), or that he learned Sage Mode where the slugs reside. And you're missing another point. The three locations mentioned (for snakes, toads, and slugs) are only noted to be famous. For all we know, there are other places to learn senjutsu. There are just too many unknowns to say for sure. I suggest just letting it go until we get a new databook or clarification in a later chapter. Because, by your logic, we'd have to list Tsunade as a Sage because Orochimaru and Jiraiya learned Senjutsu, so therefore she must've learned it too. See where that kind of loose ends logic leads? Not very productive. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 05:02, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

Alright, I guess you're right. It would be better to wait a little longer until another source of info is released that confirms what Sage Mode Hashirama is using. I get your point. I'll just go ahead and leave this topic alone until further confirmation. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 05:07, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

This is just my opinion but, I don't think it's too far-fetched to assume that there could be a "Slug Sage Mode".
First, to address a topic discussed above, while I agree that there is technically only one Sage Mode, I believe the differences between the modes we see come from the specific techniques used to achieve them. The techniques taught at Mount Myoboku by the toads result in the toad-like traits exhibited by Jiraya and Naruto (even if it's just his eyes) and, while Kabuto already had snake-like traits and may also be a special case due to his self-experimentation, it seems to me that his sage mode (resulting from techniques taught at Ryuchi Cave) only increased said snake-like traits (even if it's just some horns on his face).
If we look at the facts, we know that Shikkotsu Forest is compared to both Mount Myoboku and Ryuchi Cave, and that the three Sannin's summons each come from those locations. Jiraya is known to be a Sage, while Orochimaru is, at the very least, capable of manipulating Sage Chakra (even if his host bodies won't allow him to enter Sage Mode), and is probably also a Sage. While we don't know what technique Hashirama uses to enter Sage Mode, or what summon (if any) he utilizes, Tsunade is his descendant, is one of the three Legendary Ninja, and summons Katsuya. With as many parallels this series seems to implement, it seems reasonable (while still speculative) that Hashirama could have learned the techniques to enter Sage Mode from the slugs at Shikkotsu Forest.
This last bit is highly speculative but, Tsunade's Strength of a Hundred Seal seems very similar to a Curse Mark, or even the Sage Mode markings. I don't believe this to actually be a Sage Art/Technique, but could be modeled after one (sort of like how the Rasengan is modeled after a Tailed Beast Ball). It was stated by Madara that this technique is similar to Hashirama's style of medical ninjutsu, and it is noted that Katsuya is somehow "directly linked to and supported by the seal."
What I take from all of this information is that Hashirama may indeed have been trained in Sage Arts by the slugs of Shikkotsu Forest, which helped him to form his advanced medical ninjutsu techniques. These (non-Sage) techniques would have been passed down to Tsunade who formed the Seal and Creation Rebirth techniques. Obviously, none of this is even hinted at in the series but, being that there are so many gaps in information, this is what I like to fill them with. It just makes sense to me. Hopefully we'll get some sort of official explanation soon.--Tronyc714 (talk) 11:15, June 13, 2014 (UTC)

Perfect Sage Mode Edit

When the user achieves no animalistic traits, they've achieved Perfect Sage Mode. Explicitly said so in the manga since the balance is perfect.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 19:41, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Was the term "perfect" ever used? Also there always are "animalistic" (lol?) traits, them being the eyes and so--Elveonora (talk) 19:54, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, Fukasaku explicitly called the state where no animal traits (like what Jiraiya got) was perfect, with only the eyes and the pigmentation around them being the only change. Check chapter 418.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 19:58, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
No, he doesn't. • Seelentau 愛 20:13, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Then what was the differentiation between Naruto's state and Jiraiya's?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 20:34, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
The unbalanced energies. But I meant Fukasaku and his words. He didn't use "perfect" or anything alike. • Seelentau 愛 20:36, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Fukasaku just said "The pigmentation around his (Naruto's) eyes is the proof of a true Sage, it means he could perfectly balance the three energies. From this point, he truly surpassed Jiraiya!", nothing about a Perfect Sage Mode.--JOA20 (talk) 20:47, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Then just replace "Perfect Sage Mode" with "True Sage Mode". Is that what is being suggested, a denomination for a Sage Mode with perfectly balanced energies? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:08, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
He doesn't say "true", either... • Seelentau 愛 08:52, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

Turning to stone Edit

In the disadvantage section it says If the user draws in too much natural energy, they run the risk of transforming into a toad, and then into stone. We only know that this applies to those who are Toad Sages right? Now that we also got Snake Sages. --Kasan94 Nara Symbol Talkpage 21:52, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

People went full ham when we tried to draw a full separation between Toad Sages and Snake Sages. If you want to add that the "turn to a stone toad" as a risk only for those training under toads, you are welcome to find to put it into the article.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 11:13, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! --Kasan94 Nara Symbol Talkpage 11:38, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
Why would only "toad sages" turn into stone? Natural energy is natural energy--Elveonora (talk) 12:03, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
Because the sentence reads "blah blah blah transforming into a toad, blah blah stone"?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:05, July 28, 2014 (UTC)

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