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== Slug Sage Mode? ==
 
   
Considering it's been confirmed that slugs (Katsuyu) come from the Shikkotsu Forest in the most recent chapter, and that is the only other place besides Mount Myoboku (Toads) and the Ryuchi Cave (Snakes) where you can learn Sage Mode. Logically, the third version of Sage Mode that Hashirama Senju used is probably Slug Sage Mode. But since it isn't confirmed, it cannot be added. But I think it's worthy of being put into the trivia. Thoughts anyone? {{SUBST:User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4/sig2}} 01:08, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
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== Kabuto's image ==
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Wouldn't it make more sense to replace it with one that actually shows his eyes? His glasses obscure them on the one that's used at the present.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:59, September 22, 2014 (UTC)
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:Bump--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 09:28, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::Do you have an image in mind? [[User:SusanooUnleashed|SusanooUnleashed]] ([[User talk:SusanooUnleashed|talk]]) 11:40, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Something that shows a better close-up of his face, in particular the eyes, without that nerdy glasses reflection.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 12:23, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
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::::How about [[:File:Suigetsu hides.png|this one]]? Or we could make version of the one on the right without Suigetsu in it and use that one.--[[User:Neffyarious|Neffyarious]] ([[User talk:Neffyarious|talk]]) 12:49, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Is [[:File:Kabuto Sage Mode.png|this image]] appropriate? --[[User:Sarutobii2|Sarutobii2]] ([[User talk:Sarutobii2|talk]]) 13:48, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::@Sarutobii, that one is great. EDIT: can you take the same shot but in a HD resolution? thanks--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 14:27, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::::It's already a 720p upload. I'm going to put it in the article.--[[File:Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg|15px]] [[User:JOA20|'''JOA''']][[User talk:JOA20|''20'']] 14:44, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
   
I think what your saying sounds logical but like you said it's unconfirmed.Although im not a 100% sure about putting it in a trivia without further proof.[[User:Whiteraven1|Whiteraven1]] ([[User talk:Whiteraven1|talk]]) 01:17, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
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I guess ur right, but the old one was of higher resolution--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 16:17, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
   
: See the discussion on [[Talk:Hashirama Senju|Hashirama's talk page]]. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 01:47, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
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== Orochimaru ==
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When fighting Sage Mode Kabuto, Sasuke mentions that Orochimaru used imperfect Sage Mode. Also, he was said by Kabuto to have learned how to use it, only not being able to use it because he didn't have the right body. Orochimaru's imperfect Sage Mode that Sasuke referred to is probably his "Great White Serpent" form, which has the same eyes that Kabuto has when he goes into Sage Mode.--[[User:Neffyarious|Neffyarious]] ([[User talk:Neffyarious|talk]]) 13:31, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:No, that form was a result of genetic experimentation, but I agree Orochimaru is a user--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:48, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::I also agree that he is a user since it was stated but that form was said to be his true form that he obtained from long years of experiments done on himself. [[User:Munchvtec|Munchvtec]] ([[User talk:Munchvtec|talk]]) 14:00, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Sage Mode is a state that results from Senjutsu chakra. Orochimaru can produce and absorb Senjutsu chakra, meaning he can use Sage Mode. Just because his host bodies can't doesn't mean he shouldn't be listed, after all, he learned Senjutsu before he transferred for the first time and absorbed Senjutsu chakra from Kabuto while having his own body.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:08, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::::He isn't a user. Kabuto said that Orochimaru was unable to use Sage Mode. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 14:45, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::He said that Orochimaru couldn't find a suitable host body to withstand Sage Mode, not that he didn't learn it and couldn't use it with his own body, since he obviously could, otherwise how would he produce and absorb senjutsu chakra?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:10, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::One doesn't have to be in Sage Mode to make use of senjutsu chakra (if you did, Madara taking Hashirama's chakra and not turning to stone wouldn't be at thing) one doesn't automatically enter Sage Mode by having access to senjutsu chakra. Now that being said, Orochimaru may know ''how'' to enter Sage Mode but if he couldn't ever actually do it then he can't use it.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Eye of Rikudō.svg|30px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 15:15, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::::Then how does one enter Sage Mode besides molding Senjutsu chakra? Because from what we have seen, it happens just like that, no activation needed. Naruto deactivated his clones who had gathered natural energy and molded Senjutsu chakra, having their chakras return to his real body and boom! Sage Mode happens, there's no hand seal or anything. And Madara didn't turn into stone because he could control said chakra according to his own words--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:21, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::::I agree with @TU3 in this one, Orochimaru might know everything about Sage Mode and its procedure but Kabuto clearly said that he wasn't able to use it. I could make a research about planes and how to fly them but if I have never flown one, I'm not a pilot, I don't know if that's a good example of my point. I believe that what @TU3 was trying to say is that being able to use senjutsu chakra is not equal to be in Sage Mode, like Jugo for example. So, I don't think Orochimaru is a user. [[User:Leo Hatake|<span style="color:MidnightBlue; font-family:'Harrington'; font-size:20px;">Leo</span>]][[User Talk:Leo Hatake|<span style="color:DarkGreen; font-family:'Harrington'; font-size:20px">Hatake</span>]] 16:07, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:But Jugo IS using Sage Mode, that being Sage Transformation, I brought that up many times. And Orochimaru doesn't only know about Senjutsu, he can produce Senjutsu chakra and absorb it. There's no evidence at all that Sage Mode is anything else but having Senjutsu chakra flow thorough your body--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:35, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::I don't see Jugo listed as a user, so Orochimaru is not listed as a user. Simple as that. [[User:Leo Hatake|<span style="color:MidnightBlue; font-family:'Harrington'; font-size:20px;">Leo</span>]][[User Talk:Leo Hatake|<span style="color:DarkGreen; font-family:'Harrington'; font-size:20px">Hatake</span>]] 16:41, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::@Leo please stop trying to end the discussion short.
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:::@elve, i believe what you are saying because it's true...there is nothing that states that senjutsu is anything else. [[User:Munchvtec|Munchvtec]] ([[User talk:Munchvtec|talk]]) 16:42, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::::@Leo, because it's a mistake Jugo isn't listed that I would like corrected. Sage Transformation is Sage Mode with mutating bodily fluids as extra, that's all. Not having Jugo listed is like crediting someone with Lightning Release Shadow Clone but not Shadow Clone Technique. And anyone is yet to show that Sage Mode is anything but Senjutsu chakra flowing through their bodies, because all the manga says and shows just that--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:46, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Jesus Christ. The manga states that Orochimaru can not enter Sage Mode. I don't give a fuck about the reason he couldn't or what the difference between using Senjutsu chakra and Sage Mode is. He could not enter Sage Mode so he won't be listed as a user. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 16:50, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::Alright man calm done. [[User:Munchvtec|Munchvtec]] ([[User talk:Munchvtec|talk]]) 16:51, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::::@Munchvtec What? Is it wrong to end a discussion short? Sorry if I'm not used to the long, unnecessary, and endless debates that is placed around here. It Is better to conclude a discussion short and clear with facts, that continue and reach a discussion that only will contain theories, assumptions, speculations and resentments between users.
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:::::::@Elveonora, the Jugo as user is another discussion, if you want open that can, you are free to do it but here we are talking about Orochimaru. Orochimaru is not listed because Kabuto mentioned that he didn't use it, and if you make that Jugo is listed as a user, then, I will in your path, otherwise, I'm not. [[User:Leo Hatake|<span style="color:MidnightBlue; font-family:'Harrington'; font-size:20px;">Leo</span>]][[User Talk:Leo Hatake|<span style="color:DarkGreen; font-family:'Harrington'; font-size:20px">Hatake</span>]] 16:59, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:No, it doesn't say that, it says he couldn't find suitable host bodies for Sage Mode, that's not the same as saying "he can't use Sage Mode". Imagine that if Sasuke were to use Fushi Tensei on Naruto for an example, he wouldn't be able to use Sharingan anymore, most probably. So your logic would be to remove Sasuke as Sharingan user because he could no longer use it in new body. I insist that Orochimaru can use Sage Mode with his own body without a host, there's no reason to think otherwise.
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:I find it highly hypocritical that you choose to be "logical" when it comes to one topic, but chooses to be ignorant about another. And if you don't give a fuck then don't comment. Unless I somehow missed a manga page or databook entry that say there's something else to Sage Mode besides getting empowered by Senjutsu chakra, then there isn't, the burden of proof lies on you--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:03, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::He could not use Sage Mode because he did not have a suitable host body. So why would you label him as a user when he couldn't use it? And the very fact that Orochimaru can gather natural energy but not use Sage Mode, proves that there's a difference. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 17:21, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::the same reason we list kakashi as being able to use those kamui chidori and shuriken jutsu's even though he can't anymore. [[User:Munchvtec|Munchvtec]] ([[User talk:Munchvtec|talk]]) 17:22, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::::@Seel, hasn't he got a suitable body to use Sage Mode as you say OR he could use Sage Mode, but couldn't '''since''' he started using Fushi Tensei, because host bodies couldn't handle it. You say he needs a good host bodies in order to use Sage Mode, I say host bodies are actually what prevents him from using Sage Mode, Kabuto's statement can be interpreted either way and the latter makes more sense to me--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:25, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::<nowiki>*sigh*</nowiki> I believe you should first think a little bit your words but well, I will try to answer your "burden of proof". ''It says he couldn't find suitable host bodies for Sage Mode, that's not the same as saying "he can't use Sage Mode''. Man, is clear like water, of course that it's the same, if you don't have one of the requirement of something, you are not able to use it. In the research of Orochimaru, he discovered that he needed a suitable body to use the Sage Mode, but, he didn't have it, so he's not a user. ''So your logic would be to remove Sasuke as Sharingan user because he could no longer use it in new body'' Of course not, that's ridiculous even to say it, of course that we are not going to remove a Sasuke as sharingan user because he had used it a lot of times. In Orochimaru side, Kabuto said that Orochimaru wasn't able to use it and Orochimaru has never been shown using it (and using the argument that yes was shown using it because he uses senjutsu doesn't apply until you settle the Jugo stuff). ''I insist that Orochimaru can use Sage Mode with his own body without a host'' Totally correct, but he wasn't shown using it, so, no. [[User:Leo Hatake|<span style="color:MidnightBlue; font-family:'Harrington'; font-size:20px;">Leo</span>]][[User Talk:Leo Hatake|<span style="color:DarkGreen; font-family:'Harrington'; font-size:20px">Hatake</span>]] 17:28, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::Wait, so do you agree or disagree that hostless Orochimaru can use Sage Mode? Because if you agree, then I'm clueless why you oppose him getting listed, wasn't seen using isn't an argument, because neither was Tobirama seen using Edo Tensei--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:30, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::::The raw says "But... he hadn't yet found a body that could endure it (Jugo's power)". • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 17:33, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::::Hadn't yet? That means he did find it eventually? Unless I'm having English grammar block at the moment :P--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:39, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:hadn't yet means that he has not "yet" found a host though he eventually could. [[User:Munchvtec|Munchvtec]] ([[User talk:Munchvtec|talk]]) 17:43, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::If Orochimaru didn't find one ever, Kabuto would have used "hasn't found" rather than hadn't, because saying "hadn't found something that could" gives vibe that "he did find it eventually" unless Kabuto used had because he had thought Orochimaru to be dead--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:47, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::no it doesn't. hadn't means had not while hasn't means has not. their essentially the same word. [[User:Munchvtec|Munchvtec]] ([[User talk:Munchvtec|talk]]) 17:49, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Ugh, I'm not arguing about hasn't = has not and hadn't = had not, but usage of hadn't instead of hasn't--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:51, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Some people are really persistent. I agree that hostless Orochimaru could learn the Sage Mode because Kabuto imply so, but I disagree listed him because one thing is to know that one person is able to do something in certain circumstance and other thing is listed him being able to use something that is unable to use right now. Like @Muchvtec said, he eventually might will be able to use it, and when that happens, we are going to listed him, otherwise, no. Please, just accept it and stop making arguments related with the "vibe" that deliver the characters. I'm done with this topic. [[User:Leo Hatake|<span style="color:MidnightBlue; font-family:'Harrington'; font-size:20px;">Leo</span>]][[User Talk:Leo Hatake|<span style="color:DarkGreen; font-family:'Harrington'; font-size:20px">Hatake</span>]] 17:52, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::At the time Orochimaru discovered the cave, he did not have a body that could handle the power of Jugo's clan. We don't know if he found one later or not, but that is irrelevant. The only statement about Orochimaru is that he couldn't use it. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 17:54, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::::Excuse me my limited knowledge of English then, but the wording "he hadn't found something that could" means he did find something that can later on, unless I failed a class or two :P--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:57, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:@Seel, what's the sentence before "he hadn't found body could" part?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:11, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::Bump, nicely please :P The context is important--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 10:28, September 25, 2014 (UTC)
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:::@elveo, hadn't means he had not found one. though i agree he could use sage mode he just simply "had not". [[User:Munchvtec|Munchvtec]] ([[User talk:Munchvtec|talk]]) 11:55, September 25, 2014 (UTC)
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::::The meaning of had not is dependent on the previous sentence, because the way it's placed in that sentence alone gives it meaning that he hadn't found a body before he actually did later on, word order and context are important in English.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:42, September 25, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::I think he atleast "sage" by being able utilise senchakra/ [[User:Rage gtx|Rage gtx]] ([[User talk:Rage gtx|talk]]) 14:14, September 25, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::Pretty please Seel? All the sentences in relation to Orochimaru and Sagehood :P--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 13:17, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::::um...wow you must really want this to happen elveo. ive "never" seen you beg lol. but anyways yeah please seel-san. [[User:Munchvtec|Munchvtec]] ([[User talk:Munchvtec|talk]]) 13:20, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::::There's only what I said above. Also, you won't change your opinion anyway. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 13:22, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
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:We can't seem to come to a consensus, so what do we do?--[[User:Neffyarious|Neffyarious]] ([[User talk:Neffyarious|talk]]) 14:51, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
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::Found the full dialogue myself... Kabuto indeed says there that Orochimaru wanted to master it but needed a body which he didn't have, so according to Kabuto, Orochimaru isn't a user. But then again, I think Kabuto is wrong, but that's just me. I don't see how someone who can't use Sage Mode can absorb Sage Mode, mold Senjutsu chakra and not turn into stone, but whatever--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 15:07, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Because Sage Mode isn't a requirement of senjutsu chakra. Madara didn't have it, Obito didn't have it, Naruto used Six Paths Senjutsu in place of it (you can see he lacks the toad markings around his eyes), Jūgo's entire clan uses Sage Transformation, animals don't enter any mode whatsoever, as Fukasaku pointed out, they are already part of nature and use senjutsu naturally, and anyone with a curse mark (Anko, Sasuke, etc.) uses senjutsu through it. There are many ways for humans to preform senjutsu. Sage Mode is not, will not, and never has been the requirement. It is simply a heightened transformation that some users of Senjutsu can use to bolster their physical capabilities even further. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Rinnegan Sasuke.svg|20px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 15:29, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Except humans are animals in Naruto too, Fukasaku says so.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 16:02, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Not to mention the moment Naruto managed to balance energies into Senjutsu chakra, he entered Sage Mode, without being aware that he did so, therefore no special activation, it just happens. There's nothing more to it than Senjutsu chakra--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 10:28, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::Figured I'd point out that when Orochimaru de-activates Kabuto's Sage Mode by draining the chakra through his hand, his hand takes on the same cracked quality as Sage Mode Kabuto's skin. Don't know if that is significant.
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::::::Also as mentioned above, Kabuto says that the only reason that Orochimaru did not use Sage Mode was because his host body was too weak, that means that if he had a proper body he could use Sage Mode. We list Guruguru as a user of Mayfly purely because he is a White Zetsu, even though he has never used it, we list Sharingan as one of Kakashi's Kekki Genki, despite the fact that he no longer possess it, so why can't we list Orochimaru as a user of Sage Mode?--[[User:Neffyarious|Neffyarious]] ([[User talk:Neffyarious|talk]]) 11:34, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::::That's what I think, his host body that he had at the time limited him. I'm 99,99% positive Senjutsu equals Sage Mode no matter what anyone says, because that's exactly what is said and shown during Naruto's toad training, so Orochimaru's real body can use it, while his host bodies can't. In fact the reason the host bodies start to reject him after a while may be because they can't handle Senjutsu chakra.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 12:18, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
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Well, I guess that since Orochimaru utilises Senjutsu he can definitely be given the classification of a Sage. Also, Jugo should be given the Sage classification. But we still have not come to any conclusion as to whether or not to add Orochimaru to the Sage Mode page.--[[User:Neffyarious|Neffyarious]] ([[User talk:Neffyarious|talk]]) 04:21, October 5, 2014 (UTC)
   
Where do you get the "only place to learn Sage Mode" for all we know, someone can learn Sage Mode in their bed at home while watching TV.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:31, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
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Seems people can't come to an agreement about what being a "Sage" includes. Also people really should give themselves a favor and re-read/re-watch the whole Naruto Senjutsu training part, where it's made obvious that Senjutsu Chakra = Sage Mode.
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Quoting Fukasaku: "too little natural energy, Sage Techniques won't work, too much and you start turning into a toad" then all Naruto does is manage to perfectly balance the 3 energies, with Fukasaku proclaiming that eye pigment is a sign of a true Sage. Naruto falls down from the pillar but doesn't hurt himself and Fukasaku explains that he is in Sage Mode, that's why it didn't hurt. There's no activation, Senjutsu Chakra makes you be in Sage Mode, that's why it's freaking called a '''mode'''. Further proven when Fukasaku explains how Senjutsu Chakra differs from ordinary chakra. He attributes to it what we do attribute to Sage Mode, pretty much saying Senjutsu Chakra in body = Sage Mode--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 10:01, October 5, 2014 (UTC)
Because, Kabuto stated there are only 3 places to learn Sage Mode. From the toads at Mount Myoboku, the snakes in the Ryuchi Cave, and from the Shikkotsu Forest. Which has been recently confirmed to posses slugs. Considering Naruto learned Toad Sage Mode from toads at Mount Myoboku, Kabuto learned Snake Sage Mode from snakes at the Ryuchi Cave, and Hashirama Senju has a third version of sage mode that we've never seen. Logically, it is Slug Sage Mode. {{SUBST:User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4/sig2}} 14:13, June 21, 2013 (UTC) @Elveonora
 
:Not true. Kabuto said he found the Ryūchi Cave which was equally as famous as Mount Myōboku and Shikkotsu Forest. Saying that those are the only places to learn Sage Mode is akin to saying that only Konoha-nin can learn Sage Mode then.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:34, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
 
::Absorving natural chakra as its secundary effects, almost impossible to be learned alone, because most of the people don't know that is even possible to absorve natural chakra and how to do it, it as to be teached or seen, and those three places being mentioned as the only places that someone could learn to absorve natural chakra i don't remember. Hashirama could easely observed how frogs do it, like Minato did with Rasengan inspiring into Tailed-Beast Bomb, and being Hashirama the most brilliant shinobi ever since Rikudou, he could developed his own Sage Mode. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 14:46, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::That's the point, there's no proof any animal taught him that. He could have managed to learn it by himself, theoretically--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:11, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
::::Yeah but besides if {a big if} Hashirama managed to create his own sage mode then what should his sage mode be called.Should it be called the Senju sage mode.Don't get me wrong im still debating about the whole Slug Sage Mode thing.But if it's later confirmed that this isn't slug sage mode then this is what it should be called.[[Special:Contributions/74.89.213.43|74.89.213.43]] ([[User talk:74.89.213.43|talk]]) 16:36, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
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== Jugo ==
   
I highly doubt ANYONE even him can simply learn on his own sage mode. That is a ridiculous assumption. I believe he was taught by somebody one way or another [[User:ItachiWasAHero|ItachiWasAHero]] ([[User talk:ItachiWasAHero|talk]]) 05:55, July 18, 2013 (UTC)
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Is there any reason why Jugo is not added as a user? Considering Sage Transformation has been added as a derived technique of Sage Mode so there's really no reason he shouldn't be. [[User:Victory9000|Victory9000]] ([[User talk:Victory9000|talk]]) 22:04, October 6, 2014 (UTC)
:This is an easy one, couldn't resist. Logic says, that there has to be first of something every time. Who was the first Sage ever (any species) taught by? Bingo, someone had to come up with it, that alone confirms it's possible to be self-taught--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:09, July 18, 2013 (UTC)
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:No, you got it wrong, man. Sage Transformation is NOT derived from Sage Mode. Yes, both use senjutsu chakra, but what Jugo transforms into is because of his clan's unnamed ability. They can passively absorb natural energy. A Sage Mode user is trained in absorbing natural energy, for Jugo, it was a genetic trait. Plus, if you want to get technical, IMO, Sage Mode is a type of Sage Transformation, given that those in Sage Mode have the limitation of having to stand still to absorb, while Jugo's clan passively absorb natural energy. Jugo is a Sage ''Transformation'' user, not a Sage ''Mode'' user. Sage Mode users have to train and learn (and have red markings around their eyes) how to absorb natural energy, that wasn't the case with Jugo and others who used Orochimaru's Juinjutsu. • [[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] {{Mod}} [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User talk:WindStar7125]] [[File:WindStar7125's Task.svg|20px|link=Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|]] 22:10, October 6, 2014 (UTC)
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::Sorry Windstar, but you've got it wrong. Sage Transformation is Sage Mode with x-men fluids. And Sage Mode isn't Sage Transformation, because there are no Jugo Clan's fluids. If what you say were true, Kabuto wouldn't be a Sage Mode user, because he uses Jugo's way.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 12:00, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
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:I never said Sage Mode being derived from Sage Transformation was true, I said "In my opinion (IMO)." Give me a break, man. Lol. • [[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] {{Mod}} [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User talk:WindStar7125]] [[File:WindStar7125's Task.svg|20px|link=Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|]] 12:09, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
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:Also, Kabuto was trained under Sage Mode by the White Sage Snake. He used Jugo's way to eliminate the setback of having to stand still like a normal Sage Mode. • [[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] {{Mod}} [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User talk:WindStar7125]] [[File:WindStar7125's Task.svg|20px|link=Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|]] 12:12, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
Well, that is true. We will just have to wait and see what explanation is given for it if any. [[User:ItachiWasAHero|ItachiWasAHero]] ([[User talk:ItachiWasAHero|talk]]) 22:15, July 18, 2013 (UTC)
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During Naruto's training at frog mountain, all Sage Mode is was explained to be mixing physical energy, spiritual energy and natural energy, molding Senjutsu Chakra, that's a manga fact. By that definition any Senjutsu Chakra user would be Sage Mode user and Jugo uses Senjutsu. I'm yet to see any evidence contrary to that--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 12:15, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
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:There is a reason why this wiki has Sage Mode and Sage Transformation as two different things. Yes, both use Senjutsu chakra, but Sasuke isn't considered a Sage due to his Curse Mark Transformation. • [[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] {{Mod}} [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User talk:WindStar7125]] [[File:WindStar7125's Task.svg|20px|link=Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|]] 12:21, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
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::Lets not bring the iffy label "sage" into this. This is about Sage Mode. Using canon, can you disprove it being anything else but a state of body empowered by Senjutsu Chakra ? I don't think so, but be my guest--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 12:26, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Sage Mode is the intentional absorbing of natural energy and finding a balance, only changing slightly, with the ability to perform Sage Art techniques. Sage Transformation is the passive absorbing of natural energy that is unbalanced and can lead to inconsistent transformations, more wild body transformations, with no sign of being able to preform Sage Arts.
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:::You may wish to ignore it, but there is a reason why Jiraiya and Naruto are considered "Sages" while Jugo is not. Being a sage means they can transform into Sage Mode at will and get specific techniques to use as well. Jugo's Sage Transformations essentially just give him the passive ability to just have natural energy, I have yet to see him actually weaponize it in any way.
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:::Tl;Dr; Sage Mode and Sage Transformation are similar but have a noticable difference between the two, one being on purpose thus making them a sage, the other uncontrolled making them "mutating monster man".--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Eye of Rikudō.svg|30px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:09, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
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::::So Kabuto isn't a Sage Mode user because his absorption is unintentional by your judgement. And no, Sage Transformation isn't the passive absorbing of natural energy that is unbalanced. Sage Transformation is what happens when Jugo molds Senjutsu Chakra, not the kekkei genkai itself and also has nothing to do with imbalance. Even if Jugo were to perfectly balance the Senjutsu Chakra, he still would use Sage Transformation, it occurs because of bodily fluids in his body.
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Not to mention Jiraiya's Senjutsu Chakra wasn't perfectly balanced and he still was a Sage Mode user. I'm quite sure that if Jugo were to go to magic animal kingdom place and be taught Sage Art, he could use them, it's not like you learn Sage Art from your arse.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 13:21, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Reverting ==
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@Ulti, I don't think your grasp of some of the terminology and concepts is correct, but thanks for your contribution anyway.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 13:48, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
Okay, there has been this small revert war happening where Hashirama's Sage Mode is being changed to Wood Sage Mode. Stop this now and explain why someone would want to change it to Wood Sage Mode. [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 12:33, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
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:Thank you, TU3. [[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] {{Mod}} [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User talk:WindStar7125]] [[File:WindStar7125's Task.svg|20px|link=Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|]] 16:51, October 8, 2014 (UTC)
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::1)Edits go at the ''end'' WindStar7125.
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::2) Don't get smug with me Elvenora. I know exactly what I'm talking about, I'm just not making sweeping assumptions to make myself look smart. Jugo's passively absorbing natural energy and transforms into wild and out there forms. That isn't Sage Mode. Naruto purposely gathers natural energy and balances to the point where he doesn't die. That is Sage Mode. The two are similar but not one in the same, so you can now stop going into every discussion trying your damnest to make it so. Because damn if you want them to be the same so bad, why aren't you arguing that the two articles be merged and make Jugo a sage? Exactly.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Eye of Rikudō.svg|30px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 17:04, October 8, 2014 (UTC)
   
:There is no discussion here, someone is simply putting a fanon name in because they think it sounds better. The only person to use that particular Sage Mode was Hashirama and until Kishi decides an official name for it, we will continue to call it "Hashirama Senju's Sage Mode". --[[User:Speysider|Speysider]] <sup><small>[[User_talk:Speysider|Talk Page]] | [[User:Speysider/Images|My Image Uploads]] | [[User:Speysider/Tabber Code|Tabber Code]] | [http://youtube.com/LPSajuuk Channel]</small></sup> 12:47, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
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Merger would be wrong, because non-Jugo junkies aren't using Sage Transformation, but I wouldn't exactly oppose a section in Sage Mode article about Sage Transformation, just like we mention Six Paths Sage Technique in Chakra Mode etc.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 17:33, October 8, 2014 (UTC)
   
::fanon name? Seriously? -.- Look at his [[Sage Art: Wood Release: True_Several Thousand Hands]], and notice that unless he has Wood/Trees Sage Mode, there is no other explanation for this. Besides, calling it 'Hashirama Senju's Sage Mode' sounds pretty stupid. Next time, try to think before canceling an edit. {{SUBST:ס:משתמש:Itachi san/חתימה}} 13:37, July 7, 2013 (UTC)
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Really, TU3? I've seen ''many'' who don't put it at the end... but I guess I got caught. Oh well, I'm doing a good job of making a fool of myself on this topic, lol. [[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] {{Mod}} [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User talk:WindStar7125]] [[File:WindStar7125's Task.svg|20px|link=Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|]] 17:55, October 8, 2014 (UTC)
:::Shima's technique is called Sage Art: Wind Release Dust Cloud, her Sage Mode isn't Wind Release because of that. All Sage Modes with a confirmed origin stem from summoned animals. There's absolutely no evidence that his Sage Mode stems from his Wood Release. I'd suggest you try taking your own advice. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 15:58, July 7, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
== Gamakichi? ==
 
Seeing as he has been described as using a [[Starch Syrup Gun|Senjutsu attack]], should we list him as a user of Sage Mode? I mean, maybe we ought to wait for the better translations, but I think it's pretty clear there.
 
--[[User:ScruffyC|ScruffyC – Ash &#34;Scruffy&#34; Chancellor, the man who will become the world&#39;s greatest video game designer and change the world y&#39;know!]] ([[User talk:ScruffyC|talk]]) 05:56, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
 
:Actually, shouldn't only humans be listed as Sage Mode users? The Toad Sages use senjutsu without transforming and databook 3 only listed Jiraiya as a user of "Sage Mode", despite the toads being mentioned as users of senjutsu.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 22:04, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:I think, toads use senjutsu without transforming into sage mode. They are original user of senjutsu, they dont need to transform but humans transform to use senjutsu.--[[User:Salamancc|Salamancc]] ([[User talk:Salamancc|talk]]) 22:56, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
 
::They do have to gather natural energy to use senjutsu though. The fact animals were not listed as users of Sage Mode does raise an important question. Has there been any reference in the manga of animals entering Sage Mode? Or do they only make senjutsu chakra and use senjutsu? [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:40, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::One can't use senjutsu without sage mode tho. I don't think they are in an empowered state all the time. As stated, they also need to gather natural energy. And Fukasaku was strong enough to lift a giant boulder. With such strength, he would not have been killed by Pain, suggesting he was in normal mode when hit.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:10, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::They need gather natural energy but they dont need to enter sage mode. Sage Mode is a technique which used by only humans.--[[User:Salamancc|Salamancc]] ([[User talk:Salamancc|talk]]) 18:44, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::::Says who? Unless it's stated in canon, you just made it up. Gathering natural energy and balancing it EQUALS Sage Mode, there's no difference. The latter results as a consequence of the from former--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:55, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 
Right back at you, Elve. Where was it stated in the manga that animals needed Sage Mode to preform techniques like that? Anywhere? I actually question why we add animals to Sage Mode myself. It seems that animals can more naturally use natural energy and sage techniques without needing the transformation their human counterparts require. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 20:17, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 
:(edit conflict) What part exactly? We know the toads need to gather natural energy because we've seen them do it. The fact which appears to have sparked this discussion is that Shima and Fukasaku are not listed as Sage Mode users in the Third Databook, despite some of their techniques being listed as senjutsu. That would imply that Sage Mode is a state in which humans are able to use senjutsu, and that animals, while also capable of using senjutsu, are not considered users of Sage Mode. We have to fine comb through mentions of senjutsu. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 20:20, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:: That's what I'm getting at. Completely agreed with Omni. Animals can do senjutsu without Sage Mode, which, makes the human users look more animal-like I might add. It'd be sort of... redundant? to make an animal go through a similar process. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 20:29, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::Don't forget that there's the whole issue of Jūgo's clan's ability, and cursed seal being a mock senjutsu as well to murk up the subject a bit more. I'm half expecting Sasuke to be explained about some of it in coming chapters, only for us to learn that he can once again use his cursed seal over the flesh transplant he got from Jūgo way back when Taka was hunting Killer B, so he can have "senjutsu"/mock senjutsu that can damage Obito. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 20:38, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::Except humans are animals as well guys.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:54, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 
It seems like only animals that can be summoned (like the toads and snakes) are the ones that can use senjutsu naturally and also teach it since they can naturally absorb the natural energy. If it was all animals then I'm pretty sure the entire Inuzuka clan would be able to into sage mode since they are always with dogs. As for Jūgo, I thought it was mentioned that, while he can absorb natural chakra, he can't control it like the toads/snakes and that's why he goes on rampages? [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 22:19, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 
:Not everything is to be seen always through the scientific lens Elv. Josh, they did mention his clan couldn't control it, but the cursed seals Orochimaru made, some of its bearers could control it. See Sound Five, Sasuke. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 22:23, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 
::True that some could control it but it was shown that even Sasuke had trouble in the beginning (remember him trying to break Zaku's arms?). Going by [[Orochimaru's Juinjutsu| the actual page]], it mentions that Orochimaru created a method to actually help the body get accustom to the curse seal. [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 22:33, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::@Omni, that's right, this is a fiction after all. But Kishi seems to have at least a basic grasp about biology and stuff. We weren't told humans have a creator in Narutoverse after all ;) and the whole Kekkei Genkai stuff is a strange twist on evolution. Anyway, I'm really sorry to ruin your little speculation guys, but "all animal techniques = senjutsu" is wrong, as [[Water Release: Gunshot]] wasn't listed as senjutsu. One who can absorb, balance and control/use natural energy is by default a Sage and since Shima and Fukasaku had to restore it, they aren't under enhancements all the time and as such, when they are, they enter Sage Mode. 3rd databook omitting them is strange, but it might as well be an overlook. It's called "sage mode" not "animal mode" and as far as I'm aware, their nickname is "great sage toads" and since they use senjutsu, it refers to that, not anything else.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:09, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::Where is the difficulty in realizing that frogs and other species mentioned as using natural energy don't enter into Sage Mode but only humans? But as @Elv said and @TTF both theories discussed here are not explicit anywhere. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 14:02, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Again sucking natural energy and getting chakra upgraded to senjutsu chakra = sage mode. So they DO.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:01, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
: They don't have Sage Mode. At all. The databook left off the toads for a reason. They can't use Sage Mode. They can use Senjutsu. They can use natural energy. But they cannot use Sage Mode. There is a difference. ''Humans'' who mold natural energy with their spiritual and mental energies when they're forming chakra, enter Sage Mode. Or did you miss that entire arc? I'm with Omni on this one. I'm in favor of removing the toads, any any non-human animals for that matter, from the list of Sage Mode users. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 21:44, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
::Jesus, what is this coming to? What you propose is completely nonsensical. You are basically making stuff up to fit many years old databook not listing them. They are listed since forever, and no one has had a problem with it until now. Re-read the fu*king chapter where Fukasaku lifts a giant boulder, thanks to Sage Mode of course--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:48, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
::: Read that. Not Sage Mode. He used natural energy, which, we've establish that while that may be a pre-requisite of Sage Mode, does not equate to using Sage Mode. Jūgo's clan and what not. Sorry, you still haven't shown me where any thing but a human has used Sage Mode. And if you can't use anything other than your personal bias and speculation to back it up, I don't see that happening soon. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 21:58, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::: '''Edit''': I might add that the feat you were referring to, I'm guessing without re-reading it to actually see if it fit your point, Fukasaku was demonstrating the effects of Natural Energy. At that point, Naruto hadn't even begun training for Sage Mode yet. He was just explaining how Natural Energy works. So... there's that. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 22:03, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::Don't anger me please. For the last time, they don't use just pure natural energy, but senjutsu chakra, which by default makes their bodies enter sage mode. Read this http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Fukasaku#Sage_Mode_-_Jutsu_List it appears to have been brought up at least once as I learned. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Shima and Fukasaku's techniques are listed in databook to be '''senjutsu''', right? If they aren't then you have a point. Otherwise, you are grasping at straws to fit what you want. Basically what you are saying is that after eating food, they don't let out cra* but something else--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:07, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::: This whole argument is amusing. All you use is your own speculation to fuel your debates. But, as with all fun things, they must come to an end. Fukasaku and Shima aren't listed as users of Sage Mode, nor is the Great Toad Sage, yet Jiraiya and Naruto are listed in the Databook. Also, um, Orochimaru uses this Senjutsu you're referring to; can't use Sage Mode. Apparently Jūgo's clan can use senjutsu chakra, can't use Sage Mode. You're at the end of your ropes here. Let's review, though, for good measure, and just so everyone else can see how stupid this is;
 
::::* Sage Mode = The use of Natural energy in perfect tandum with mental energy and physical energy, during the formation of chakra, which results in the ability to use a heightend transformation called Sage Mode. This always results in at least ''some'' physical changes on its human users.
 
::::** Frogs. No physical transformations.
 
::::** Snakes that we've seen (Great White Snake Sage). No physical transformation.
 
::::* No where in the databook are anything other than the human users listed as users of Sage Mode, despite the fact that the book came out AFTER Sage Mode was explained, so Kishi had every right to list them if he thought they used it.
 
::::* Manga makes no mention of toads using Sage Mode '''anywhere''', but rather, they seem apply senjutsu directly, since they don't need a transformation to preform it. And all mentions that have been brought up here are of toads using pure natural energy, which Elve has yet to rebut.
 
::::* Orochimaru uses natural energy AND senjutsu chakra, can't use Sage Mode.
 
::::* Jūgo's clan can use natural energy, can't use Sage Mode.
 
::::Plain and simple, they don't use Sage Mode. They should be removed. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 22:13, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
* Don't confuse yourself please. Orochimaru clearly is a user of Sage Mode, what we were told is that he couldn't find a strong host body to hold it, never that he couldn't ever use it himself. In fact, go back and check him sucking out Senjutsu chakra from Kabuto again and cursed seals possessing his senjutsu chakra, both which wouldn't be possible had he not learned it
 
* Apparently Jugo clan member's bodies absorb natural energy, they were never stated to be using senjutsu
 
* Are you being silly now? Frogs already have frog eyes, so you want them to get an extra pair of frog eyes or more pronounced frog eyes? The mode isn't about physical change, but body being empowered by senjutsu chakra. By your logic Hashirama isn't a user of Sage Mode either because there are no tentacles coming out from his arse for your amusement--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:34, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:: Maybe in your world, Elve, but Kabuto and Sasuke both said Orochimaru couldn't use Sage Mode, so he can't. We can go through the "what-ifs" all day, but the point is; he can't use it. So, until you can point me to somewhere in the manga that says toads or any other non-human uses Sage Mode, they don't use it. On the other hand, I can actually point you to things in the manga that prove my points. List above being proof. Facts have that funny feature to them. You can refute speculation all day, but when proven a list of facts, the only rebuttal you have are, and I quote, "''By your logic Hashirama isn't a user of Sage Mode either because there are no tentacles coming out from his arse for your amusement.''" Oh, and just for good measure, the reason I know Hashirama has Sage Mode, is because his eyes gain Sage marks around them, and... uh... he calls his transformation Sage Mode. Unlike any toad I've seen thus far. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 22:44, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::Ignore evidence and the context for as long as you want, doesn't make it more valid. One can't have senjutsu chakra and not be in Sage Mode, that's a fact. And don't make me laugh, so: "I said so, therefore it's true" is a fact? The only "fact" is that 3rd databook doesn't list them as users. But for all I care, make them cursed princes--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:07, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
::: Very well, I think everyone else can see for themselves what the facts are. And I can see that you're stuck in your own realm of speculation so to continue this argument further would be pointless. Now then, I'll ask anyone else here if they have a voice, because the consensus, so far, is that non-humans don't have Sage Mode. Anyone else have any thoughts. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 23:09, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
I'll just throw my two cents in here too. This is how I see it. If we are calling Fukasaku and Shima users of Sage Mode, why can't we call Gamakichi one as well. What qualifications does Fukasaku and Shima have over Gamakichi? Both don't seem to enter a Sage Mode when they use Senjutsu, and they both can use Senjutsu chakra. The way I see it, either Gamakichi can be considered able to use Sage Mode, or Fukasaku and Shima can't necessarily be said to. [[User:Omega64|Omega64]] ([[User talk:Omega64|talk]]) 23:12, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Suggesting me to be autistic and speaking of me in 3rd person doesn't add up to your credibility. Let's say there's an equal amount of evidence for and against. Now, how about instead of a removal would we put up a notice there that it may be false? Again, Suki himself explained it. By the laws established in the scripture of Naruto, using Senjutsu chakra makes you enter Sage Mode. Not only there have been a few errors in the databooks, but not everything is in there. A removal would confuse many people. Good luck explaining it once someone comes asking why aren't they listed as users anymore since they were for half a decade or so. Well, the answer will be just because one guy called Ten Fox who appears once in a while decided as such--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:21, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
: The only people I see asking anything, is why they're even listed to begin with. Care to explain that? Also, side note, I edit here more or less everyday. Check my contributions if you don't believe so. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 23:28, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
The way I see it, if the toad crew are listed as users of Sage Mode due to the ability to use senjutsu chakra, then Orochimaru should be listed as a user on the basis of that criteria alone. With that said, Elve's point would be correct. Add Orochimaru, otherwise, the toads should be removed. With that point, T.T. Fox would be correct in the sense that there was no transformation in them. Either way we go, we would have a standard to uphold. Simply put:
 
* Keep the Toads as users = Add Oro to keep a balanced standard that users are those who simply use senjutsu chakra.
 
::::OR
 
* Remove the toads due to the fact that they weren't officially confirmed to be user of Sage Mode anyway.
 
'''What's my opinion on the matter?''' : I agree with Elve. Keep the Toads as users; add Orochimaru as a user. I mean, he was quoted "learning sage mode, but never being able to master it due to weakness of his body. Thus (as Kabuto stated) he was an ''imperfect sage''." Plus he puts senjutsu chakra to use. [[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 23:32, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
: Kabuto and Sasuke noted that Orochimaru couldn't use Sage Mode. Elevenora stated that Orochimaru wasn't in a ''body'' that could use Sage Mode, yet we've come to learn that his cursed seals use Senjutsu and he can use senjutsu chakra, yet cannot use Sage Mode in his body. Seeking someone out to learn Sage Mode and actually using Sage Mode aren't the same things. So that blows Elve's theory right out of the water. Also don't know where I suggested he was autistic, so that's just wow, incredible. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 23:35, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
::Interpret it anyway you want. Kabuto states that Orochimaru ''couldn't find the right body'' and that Orochimaru ''couldn't become a perfect sage''. That's a fact. [[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 23:39, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
::: And now I'll thank you for proving my point. You realize what you're suggesting right? Orochimaru isn't in a body, nor never was in one that could use Sage Mode, and you're trying to suggest to me that that means he can use Sage Mode. But why use logic? ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 23:42, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::@Fox, your point isn't proven at all, and your the one who's missing the logic. Since when did this difference between Sage Mode and Senjutsu ever came up? From day one it was believed that one came with the other...that by producing senjutsu chakra, you gain sage mode...now this may come to different degrees of control/perfection...Jiraiya was an imperfect one, but he gained enough control to use it battle, soo there's nothing against Oro simply having lesser skill over it...the points are: Just because a person didn't master it, doesn't mean he can't use it...also if he could create the cursed seals, which produce senjutsu chakra, ''Orochimaru's'' senjutsu chakra, that can only be gained by sage mode, ''his'' sage mode. In terms of the toads, it's the same...unless you can prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt: Senjutsu =/= Sage Mode, no one can separate these...so to wrap it up...keep the toads and add Orochimaru. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 23:49, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:::: I don't even know what you were trying to say there. At the beginning you said that Senjutsu = Sage Mode (which is insanity because Orochimaru can use Senjutsu but not Sage Mode, and the same for Jūgo's clan), and then at the end, you say they're not the same thing, which is actually closer to the truth. We all agree that Orochimaru can't use Sage Mode. He's looking for a body to be able to use Sage Mode in, but there is no dispute that he has, nor never had before, no ability to use Sage Mode at all, yet his several of his techniques use Senjutsu chakra. The Toads can't use Sage Mode, nor can Orochimaru. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 23:53, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::::: Fox, please stop trying to mince up everyone's words. Juugo's clan is irrelevant. Senjutsu is the perfect mixture of chakra and natural energy. Juugo's clan '''only''' absorb ''Natural Energy'' to empower themselves. There's nothing more to it. Dark, Elve, and I, are right in terms of Senjutsu usage = a Sage. [[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 00:00, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:::: Oh, you're absolutely right, where did I go wrong? Sasuke and Kabuto? Psh! Forget what they said. Forget the fact that Orochimaru actually couldn't use Sage Mode, as the ''manga itself'' states, yet could use Senjutsu techniques, like the ''manga itself'' states. But who cares about that, right? I mean, the databook only lists human users, despite the fact that toads had already been shown using Senjutsu when it came out, and that doesn't mean anything apparently either, because you guys can just decide which facts you want to keep and which facts you don't. Right? I'm glad, though, that everyone else will get to read this. Makes for a pretty amusing read, if you ask me. And breaking up people's words is how you show the flaws in their arguments, which you have yet to try with anything I've stated. I've asked for simple things; a page, or pages, of the manga or a databook that prove '''anything''' related to Toads using Sage Mode, or Orochimaru using Sage Mode. Just provide me with something that says that, and I will happily bow out. After all, I can provide you with a ''trove'' of pages and references, yet you have not one. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 00:06, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:::::: I never said that senjutsu and sage mode were different at any point...and we're not even sure what Jugo's clan can do. Also what most of the people did here was assume that since Oro can't use Sage Mode in full, he simply can't use it, yet by some stretch of mind he can use senjutsu, (which translated means Sage Techniques, geez i wonder if that's a hint?). Here's another example, we have Naruto listed as a user of the Tailed Beast Rasengan, yet, he at best completed the technique by 50%, and was never able to used it in combat. Another thing, from what was stated...to enter sage mode, your body has to mix the three energies and produce senjutsu chakra, and you don't even have to fully balance it to use it. What's your reasoning to assume toads don't use sage mode? No animal traits? They are the animals those traits are based on. Do you have irrefutable proof, beyond Kabuto's vague statements that senjutsu and sage mode are two diiferent things? Does the databook ''explicitily'' say these two are different? Does the manga? Also you're the one who's trying to claim that sage mode and senjutsu are different things, hence burden of proof lies with you. Also tone down your statements, your being patronizing. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 00:16, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:::::: Its patronizing to ask for proof? Some flat out states that Orochimaru can't use Sage Mode in the manga, you lot say that by some act of God in Heaven, he can use Sage Mode, and all the sudden, boom, Sage Mode. Tell you what, I'm going to ''prove'' my points by getting every single reference I've referred to just to show you how absolutely ludicrous you three are being, and we'll see if you can refute fact with fact. Be back in a few minutes. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 00:19, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:::::::: People stop going off the main issue of animals being able to use sage mode. As for my input, this matter was already cleared up in that link Elevenora provided to fukusaku's page. Unless you are disputing what shounensuki said at the end of the discussion, I see no point to this just because animals weren't listed as users in the databook. — [[User talk:Simant|S<small>im</small>A<small>nt</small>]] 00:21, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
(Restarting indents) Here's the proof I have regarding Toads as Sages, Orochimaru's dealings with Sage Mode, and so on;
 
 
* "''With Senjutsu, ya take that internal chakra and augment it with 'natural energy', creating a new, more powerful form of chakra and all of 'yer ninjutsu, genjutsu, and even your hand-to-hand skill'll get a serious power-up. So ya got spiritual, physical, and natural from the outside. Techniques using chakra coming from those three sources are called 'Senjutsu'.''" - Fukasaku; Naruto 409 pages 11-12
 
** Proof that Senjutsu chakra and techniques =/= Sage Mode. In fact, at that point in the chapter, Sage Mode hasn't even been brought up yet.
 
 
* "''Yes! '''That dark pigmentation is the sign of a Sage'''! He did it!''" - Fukasaku; Naruto 418 page 8
 
** Proof that at least some manner of physical transformation is present in Sage Mode. Which '''''no''''' frogs have. Funny, that's awkward.... since a frog said it. And yet, you guys claim they don't need it. Not using Sage Mode, then? I think so.
 
 
Now I'll deal with Orochimaru specifically;
 
 
* "''Orochimaru-sama tried to gain this ability, but he never found a body that could bear its power. So... he couldn't become a complete Sage in the end... like ''me'''!''" - Kabuto; Naruto 579 pages 16-17
 
** Hmm.... self explanatory to me.
 
 
* "''There is no need to explain things to me... I put my own Senjutsu chakra within the cursed seals and my consciousness with them.''" - Orochimaru; Naruto 593 page 8}}
 
** Proof that Orochimaru can use Senjutsu chakra without Sage Mode, as Kabuto's quote directly above proved he could not.
 
 
Anything I missed? ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 00:44, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:Geez...everything...if anything you only added to lack of difference between both.
 
*Powerup to taijutsu, genjutsu and ninjutsu...producing senjutsu chakra by using spiritual, physical and natural energy...sage mode basics, all of it. Unless you're can say that the '''exact same process and gained benefits''' can be brought by two different powerups, which is throwing logic out the window, hell the what's the meaning of sage mode at all?
 
 
*They don't have the physical ''frog'' traits...because they are '''frogs'''...when did that miss you? They all have the slits and ''natural'' pigmentation around the eyes. Your proof only refers that ''a'' physical transformation appears on humans, which is almost identical to a toad's natural look.
 
 
*Kabuto said he couldn't become a '''complete''' Sage, yet we know that there are '''incomplete''' Sages like Jiraiya. If Kabuto had said Oro ''couldn't'' learn it, or that he ''couldn't'' become a Sage i'd agree...but Kabuto said he couldn't become a '''complete/perfect''' Sage...in other words he said he became a Sage, simply not at the same degree as him. If anything that statement said that Oro simply couldn't master it, not that he was unable to use it.
 
 
*And the last bit, Oro never confirmed that he couldn't use sage mode, and since the above statement is already flawed...yeah.
 
 
For a guy who's always talking about facts, you twisted them beyond reason here. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 01:20, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
: And ^ that is where you all fail. You using your personal opinions. I provided page numbers, quotes, and facts. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 01:23, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
:: '''Edit''': Also, do you notice how you mentioned Frog transformations, when Fukasaku specifically is talking about the markings around his eyes? Orochimaru mentioned using Senjutsu chakra, when in the quote above Kabuto says he hasn't yet to find a body that can use Sage Mode, which backs up the first quote, which is that Senjutsu and Sage Mode aren't one in the same, aren't used interchangeably, and can be used apart from each other. Don't believe it? Provide me with some proof that I'm wrong. I've got all the proof I'm right. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 01:26, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:::Okay, I'm going to go ahead and say that I agree with Fox that senjutsu doesn't equal Sage Mode but I do want to point out something Darksusanoo said: ''And the last bit, Oro never confirmed that he couldn't use sage mode''. Since it's basically been pointed out that we neither know or don't know if Orochimaru can use sage mode, isn't this all speculation for now? All we have right now is Kabuto saying he didn't become a complete sage and I say we stick with that. Put it in trivia on this page for now and pack this up until Orochimaru finally does pulls a Sage Mode or another databook comes out that says he is able to do it. Until then, lets stop the talk about Orochimaru and talk about the animals. [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 01:37, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:::Ten-Tailed fox, those interpretations of those references were REALLY biased... I completely agree with Darksusanoo (and why does he need to add page numbers etc to provide a different view of the same refs you brought up?). — [[User talk:Simant|S<small>im</small>A<small>nt</small>]] 01:40, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
::The proof is in your own statements...Kabuto said Oro couldn't become a complete sage, not that he couldn't become one...your quote...there are different degrees to that...again i refer to Jiraiya who wasn't one either. Oro never denied being capable of using sage mode. The physical traits thing is completely moot since a toad can't become ''more'' toad. You're ''proof'' is vague...neutral at best...you're interpreting it as no, i can interpret it as yes. Unless someone who knows what they are talking about can ''explicitily'' explain that these two things are different you're talking to the walls. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 01:41, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
::: They aren't bias at all. I'm taking those quotes to be literally Kishi's intention. If using quotes from a series about the subject at hand is bias, then there's no point debating anything about the information presented here, because you'll just pick and choose what you want and go with it. The reason I want him to provide me with page numbers or something other than his personal opinion is because I'm trying to understand his logic. I've said over and over and over again, if he can do that, I'll at least know where he's coming from and I'll back down, but every time I do, all I get is more personal opinions, whether its from him or Elvenora. They can't just say, "Here, look here and this is what it says." And that's literally all it takes, but I still haven't seen them. And the reason I haven't, and they know it just as well, is because those points do not exist in anything but their own opinion. It doesn't exist in the manga, in a databook. Heck, it doesn't even exist in the anime, yet I'm supposed to take it and shut up when, on the other hand, I ''do'' have statements from the manga. I do have a databook entry that has purposely excluded the toads. Orochimaru is iffy, but I at least support my claims with pages of the manga. But apparently finding quotes that fit my argument is bias. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 01:46, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::: Here's the thing @Fox...'''your own quotes''' don't prove anything...you're the one trying to prove the difference...it's your job to present the evidence...and your's is again vague...none, i mean '''none''' are conclusive...the bias here is not you providing the quotes (the fact that you did is commendable and proof of your hard work and something i'll try do to more in the future) it's your '''interpretation''' of it...none of them say you can't use senjutsu without sage mode, not even the databook...if it said something along the lines of "toad however do not require Sage Mode to use Senjutsu" or "toads can use senjutsu through this method, rather than Sage Mode" or '''something''' along those lines, hell i'll write you an apology, but until then...and i'm simply taking what you presented and finding the flaws in it...just as you said in this entire discussion. Also @Dan, Jugo and his clan is due to a ''specific'' genetic condition...[[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 02:04, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::::@Dark and everyone else that defends that Senjutsu = Natural Chakra is Sage Mode, Jūgo uses natural chakra, and he is not in Sage Mode, Senninka is not Sage Mode. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 02:01, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
::: If the information you have on an article does not reflect what is said in the manga, it is a flat out lie and misinformation. Since, you don't like the quotes from the manga, and '''you''' find them flawed, then that means you are willingly ignoring the manga because '''you''' have a better explanation in mind, or perhaps you just don't think its quite right. Either way, if its not in the manga, not in a databook, or not in the anime, hence making it an anime-only addition, then it doesn't belong on an article. It goes both ways. You could mention, for instance, in the Trivia, that toads use Senjutsu without seeming to use Sage Mode, since you cannot argue that they haven't been seen in any form of Sage Mode, ''at all''. Even Fukasaku mentions that. Same for Orochimaru, and that'd be less speculation then actually listing them as users, since, they in fact have not been shown using any method of Sage Mode. You're just pulling stuff out of the air and throwing it on articles, just because you don't like what the manga presents, and that kind of crap is exactly why we have a Speculation policy. It doesn't belong there. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 02:11, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
: '''Edit''': Also, they're not ''my'' quotes. What are you even talking about? Those words come from Kishi's manga. They're '''his''' words. Are you actually saying you know better than the person that wrote those words? ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 02:14, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
::Omission or lack of information does not dictate what's true or false...and hell Fukasaku never noted any differences between both things...which would seem as a very important thing to explain doesn't it? Oww for Pete's sake stop mincing every letter i say, the quotes you pulled. Again what '''I''' don't like aren't the quotes (hell i praised you for that) it's '''your''' interpretation of them...that's the bias...you're the one trying to believe you know better...it's greater speculation to assume there are ''two'' powerups with the exact same method of activation, the exact same benefits, and the fact that every technique used from all users them start with the words "''Sage Art"'' (or in one case "''Sage Technique''") If anything, it's all inconclusive. Hell let's wait for a few more chapters, were bound to get an explanation, since they are bound to explain why senjutsu can harm Obito now. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 02:30, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:: Then remove the frogs until its explained. There is no proof they can use Sage Mode. Also, you're misunderstanding. There is not two power-ups involved here. Yes, Senjutsu techniques are naturally stronger than Ninjutsu. That's the whole purpose of the first quote. If you look at Sage Mode, you can see the difference immediately. Senjutsu are techniques that use natural, physical, and mental energies altogether. Sage Mode is focusing those energies into the body to achieve a transformation. They're completely different things for completely different purposes. Just as how Naruto can use Kurama's chakra to help heal his injuries without actually using the Nine-Tails transformation, or [[Nine-Tails Chakra Mode]]. They're not one in the same. Also, you're misunderstanding something else my friend. Your differentiating my opinions and the quotes. My argument is straight from what those quotes are saying. All I care about is the exact meaning of those quotes, so if you have beef with what I'm saying, then yes, you have beef with Kishi's interpretation of things beacause its ''HIS'' opinion I'm going by. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 02:39, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:::Your argument is anything but straight from the quotes...and you're being mighty bold to say your interpretation is Kishi's way of thinking...at least i can say i can't with such certainty...can you get inside the man's mind? Hell the quote you pulled says it:
 
 
::::*"With Senjutsu, ya take that internal chakra and augment it with 'natural energy', creating a new, more powerful form of chakra and all of 'yer ninjutsu, genjutsu, and even your hand-to-hand skill'll get a serious power-up. So ya got spiritual, physical, and natural from the outside. Techniques using chakra coming from those three sources are called 'Senjutsu'.''" - Fukasaku; Naruto 409 pages 11-12.
 
 
:::Please note the parts: "ya take that internal chakra and '''augment''' it with natural energy", "'''more powerful''' form of chakra", "yer ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu skill get '''a serious power up'''", the last one being literal about it...so yeah '''two powerups''' are involved by your train of thought. And so i ask...why sage mode is necessary at all? Why didn't Fukasaku just teach senjutsu? At this stage, the only thing we can agree on is that there is a missing piece here...so let's leave it all for now and come back when more information surfaces, because what exists now, can go either way. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 02:58, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::Just a simple question so i can make my point here, do animals (toad, snake) have any type of chakra? This may sound stupid but is not. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 03:08, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::::Fukasaku amd toads do...giant snakes, slugs, summons in general have them...Gamakichi and Gamabunta can use nature transformation, that requires chakra to transform...to use senjutsu they need it...and lots of it...regular animals on the other hand was never fully stated...what's your point? [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 03:12, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::::Because I am not sure if they do, but that's speculative as hell, skipping this question stuff, trying to reach a comum sense beteween visions on the same matter, @Dark and @TTF both have good arguments, the only thing you guys agree is that there is missing something, lets just wait for further information or databook content, if we take the toads from the infobox, we would have to change too much of the article. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 03:28, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::::[[Water Release: Gunshot]], used by Gamabunta...[[Fire Release: Flame Bullet]] used by Gamakichi (anime only)...so yeah...animals have chakra. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 03:33, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
Back to the main point yes Gamakichi can use senjutsu but I agree that he'd have to enter sage mode to gather natural energy to do so and Elve has already provided us wive good references --<span style="color:Yellow;">[[User:ROOT 根 |ROOT]]</span><span style="color:Lime;">[[User talk:ROOT 根|根]]</span> 11:48, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
@Fox, you are one of the most ignorant people I know. Senjutsu chakra flowing in one's body makes it automatically enter Sage Mode. Naruto didn't have to activate anything, he managed to balance energies and fell down from rock on ground with it activated. Also stop twisting facts to suit your fallacies... Manga says Orochimaru didn't find a suitable body for Sage Mode. It '''DOESN'T''' say that his own body can't handle it neither that he hasn't had one in the past that could. Unless you can provide us evidence for another way how one can turn his/her chakra into senjutsu chakra externally or something. All in all, the majority opposes you my friend. More editors, Cerez, Seelentau, Omni, anyone?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:14, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
: At least I'm not one to form my opinions on nothing more than personal opinions and baseless speculation. You can say what you want, I'm done with this debate. I would much rather hear Omni, Ultimate, Cerez, and Seenlantau's opinions, since they tend to think with their heads and not their feelings, like you and I tend to. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 01:00, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
::I can't read all of this o.o To be honest I've never given it much though before now but if I had to decide, I would remove all animals from Sage Mode and only list persons as users for several reasons:
 
* Databook entry not only doesn't list Shima and Fukasaku as Sage Mode users, the way it is written is written in the perspective use of a human being.
 
* That brought me to the other conclusion: In Sage Mode, the person becomes more like the creature that taught them Sage Mode: eyes mostly reflect this (excluding purposeful transformations or no).
 
* That now led me to think that animals naturally use senjutsu and do no enter Sage Mode which is what humans have to go into to '''use''' senjutsu while animals do not they just make natural use of the energy. It would make them Sages, just not Sage Mode users.
 
** That just led me to a tangent about Jūgo's clan, their transformation and how we classify their techniques, but I won't even go there.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 01:42, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::So not gaining froglike features when they are already frogs means they aren't in sage mode? What do you mean animals naturally use senjutsu; when did the Inuzuka clan dogs start using senjutsu? If animals naturally use senjutsu then why are there stone ancestors of frogs who failed training. Fukusaku had to make a seal when he showed naruto senjutsu to gather the natural energy and enter sage mode. Also, I'm going to Shounensuki's input here from the Fukasaku talk page:
 
{{Quote|Shounensuki|Simant asked me for my input in this discussion. As explained in chapter 418 and in the third databook, Sage Mode is the state where one has moulded senjutsu chakra inside oneself. The state where one can use senjutsu and has had their body vitalised by the senjutsu chakra. Using this definition, both Fukasaku and Shima are capable of using Sage Mode, as they have clearly shown the ability to use senjutsu.}} — [[User talk:Simant|S<small>im</small>A<small>nt</small>]] 02:15, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
: I'm with Cerez here. Thank god someone else sees it how I do. I already rebutted Shonensuki's point. Senjutsu =/= Sage Mode. Sage Mode, as explained by Fukasaku, is the process of becoming one with nature, allowing for a physical power-up. Senjutsu is fusing natural energy with mental and physical energy to enhance one's techniques. They're different. Cerez also raises a very legitamate point. When Humans use Sage Mode, they, in someway, become more animal-like. This also proves my quote from Fukasaku, about the pigmentation around Naruto's eyes being "''the sign of a Sage''" was not bias. I'll repeat it just to make sure I hit home.
 
 
: "''"Yes! That dark pigmentation is the sign of a Sage! He did it!"'' - Fukasaku
 
 
:I don't see why he'd say that if it didn't hold some relevance to the transformation. Animals don't need a transformation to use Senjutsu because they are already part of nature. Humans, on the other hand, not being in harmony with nature, need Sage Mode to harmonize themselves and ''then'' they're capable of using Senjutsu. Its not hard to follow when you don't muddle things up with speculation. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 02:25, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
::Senjutsu are a type of techinque that uses natural energy, sage mode is having balanced natural energy with your own chakra. Shounensuki didn't state them to be the same, only related. You have in no way rebutted shounsuki's point to what I can see with your quotes. Is your point that fukasaku didn't say suppose to say "for a human that dark pigmentation is the sigh of a sage"? — [[User talk:Simant|S<small>im</small>A<small>nt</small>]] 03:04, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
::: I'm going to be honest with you. I didn't understand what you said. Nor do I understand what you're arguing. If, by your admission, both yourself and Shonensuki admit that Senjutsu =/= Sage Mode, and, by your own admission, you can't refute that Fukasaku specifically points out the pigmentation around a users eyes being the sign that they use Sage Mode, which both Cerez and I noted is missing in toads, then you have no argument. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 03:20, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::The point is the toads already have pigmentation around their eyes, so you can't tell. It doesn't matter that they aren't the same thing, as senjutsu techniques require senjutsu chakra which is the result of balancing physical/spiritual/natural energy which is achieved through sage mode. And the frogs have used senjutsu. — [[User talk:Simant|S<small>im</small>A<small>nt</small>]] 03:27, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
In that case, someone should hurry and list Akamaru as a user of senjutsu!!! But wait, since he and Kiba can merge together, that means the latter is a user as well therefore Kiba is a SAGE!!! He mastered Shadow Clone technique as well, the only things left for him to match Naruto are to learn Rasengan and dye his fu*king hair blond to catch up to his rival so they are equal!!! He might as well digest a fu*king fox he catches somewhere so both of them have one in their stomach!
 
 
Senjutsu gives monster power, speed and durability, that's why we are seeing animals lifting buildings and causing destruction in their wake!!! And that's how could Gamakichi stand his own against Manda!!! OMG, UR a genius Fox, truly. And since Kisame is a half-shark, so he is a Sage as well!!!
 
 
Ridicule against ridiculousness is the only way to show how retarded this is. Someone should tell Gamabunta that he also uses Senjutsu, so he could easily smash Kurama and Shukaku like a turd without effort due to his size and this enhancement, but of course he didn't as he was either too stupid or you are wrong, I'm certain it's the latter--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:31, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
:What TTF is trying to say is that Sage Mode is a physical manifestation of the use of natural energy, manifestation which frogs do not suffer, that being said, is not Sage Mode, but only senjutsu which is the literal use of natural energy without any physical manifestation being a trait unique to humans called Sage Mode. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 14:42, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
::Ok everyone let's call it a day for now...everyone's grasping at straws...let's wait it out for a week or two...maybe the next few chapters will give an explanation. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 14:52, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::Except both logic and canon itself contradicts what TTF proposes. Sage Mode isn't about bodily transformation at all, the definition is a state which occurs as a result of senjutsu chakra empowerment. Toads can't gain additional toad features. Pigmentation around eye was stated to be a a sign of a true Sage. Can you see any animal characteristics on Hashirama? Of course not, because it isn't mandatory--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:08, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::Like i said...let's call it a day, i'm sure more stuff is gonna surface soon...also Hashi's Sage Mode is bound to be different from the rest for some reason. But let's wait on that as well. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 15:10, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::::Simply to clarify my position here, I'm Cerez and TTF. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 15:22, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
No matter what Dan. you are always with the opposition in discussions, so I wouldn't add much value to that.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:43, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
: In other words, anyone who doesn't agree with Elevenora might as well be silent, because he doesn't care about anyone else's opinion. Arrogance of the highest kind. That's three in favor. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 18:17, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
::Oww for Pete's sake, will you both pack it up...@Fox you're no better when it comes to arrogance and patronizing...@Elve your atittude isn't helping either...right now this discussion is at a stalemate...evidence can go either way...hence why this is so divided...just leave it be and we'll turn back to this with fresh heads and more info...right now this discussion is reaching a forum-level of bickering. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 18:27, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:: Agreed. Perhaps its just best if it let to drop for now. Maybe in a few chapters we'll have a clearer view on some of the issues revolving around Sage Mode, since its going to be returning to the spotlight and we can reopen the issue then. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 18:30, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::What stalemate...? How is the natural pigmentation around toad eyes proof that they can't use sage mode? It's simple, natural energy becomes senjutsu chakra when it is taken inside the body, it then needs to be balanced with the other chakras to prevent turning to stone, and balancing the chakra results in sage mode. You can't use senjutsu techinques which require senjutsu chakra without being in sage mode. — [[User talk:Simant|S<small>im</small>A<small>nt</small>]] 19:14, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:::: There is a stalemate; three users, so far, are for removing the toads, and three users are against it. Or are you suggesting that three against it are more correct in their argument? What he's trying to say is we're dropping it until more is elaborated on. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 19:30, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
You misunderstood, I didn't mean that. Dan.'s opinion is relevant just like anyone else's. I just believe that he rarely has his own, to me it appears like he just picks up a side that is in opposition to the topic's author most of the time for whatever reason. I may be wrong tho.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 20:06, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
:This wiki does NOT resolve discussions based on the number of users for or against. From that point, Dan.Faulkner point of "I'm with ..." does now swing the discussion either way. And, from what I understand of the point Cerez made was that: A. He did not read the entire discussion as it was a HUGE wall of text, and I don't blame him. B. He said they were sages but not in sage mode because they naturally use senjutsu chakra. But, the point is they don't naturally use senjutsu chakra as there are statues of their ancestors who had turned to stone from failing to master it. So really it is just you alone TTF with the point of toads already having natural pigmentation which has been brought up probably 6+ times without you responding. — [[User talk:Simant|S<small>im</small>A<small>nt</small>]] 20:20, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
:Exactly. Have they had Senjutsu chakra by default:
 
* all animals would be freaking powerful
 
* they wouldn't need to absorb further natural energy to empower themselves
 
* they wouldn't need to master anything
 
* Shima and Fukasaku wouldn't be called Great Sages or shi* but every single animal would be Great Sage
 
So all in all, it's just TTF's agenda or rather wishful thinking. --[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 20:26, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
: Yes, you caught me. It's my evil plan to rid the wiki of mentions of animals being able to use Sage Mode -__- With that plan foiled, I'll now spend the next 16 years gathering the tailed beasts, and use my Infinite Tsukuyomi to force the entire wiki to to accept that only humans can use Sage Mode. Because that's what most people do with their free time. I make no apologizes for arguing this. I truly believe its asinine to say that Toads, who are already apart of nature, ''have'' to use a transformation (that's what Sage Mode is. Period. Otherwise, why need a "Mode" to use Senjutsu if you could just use Senjutsu alone?) whose purpose is to bring the user ''in unison'' with nature (something most humans do not possess without training), but again, why use logic? I'm confident we'll be learning more about Senjutsu, as Kishi's got to explain why Senjutsu can affect Obito, and not regular forms of attack, so I'm comfortable waiting until that's explained before really arguing this again, but I ''will'' be bringing it up again and that's that. So Simant, Elve, you can stop foaming at the mouth. I'm done for now. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 05:50, August 12, 2013 (UTC)
 
::First, I've already shown my opinion, what will serve to re-write the same things as TTF and Cerez already written? Only to demonstrate that my opinion is identical. Second, I discuss things that I think deserve to be modified so thtt is why it seems I am always on the opposition side, but is not true. Third, I know and realize facts from other publishers, Therefore my opinion may change or not, one of the rules of the wiki explicitly says we should remain unbiased, is what I try to do, but to avoid further criticism of this kind, I will stop making comments so simple to look more intellectual -_-'.
 
 
For the thousandth time, Senjutsu and Sage Mode are two different things though in Humans' case they derive from one another, which does not happen with toads, because they only absorb and apply Senjutsu chakra without the mutations preventing them from being users of Sage Mode. (Happy @Elv?). [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 09:02, August 12, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Yes, I'm pleased that we didn't have to use brute force in order for TTF to reveal us his mastermind plan on taking over wikia network and injecting his own version of Naruto canon into everyone's head and that you Dan. aren't just his alter ego or a simpleton. Jokes aside, the sad thing about this is that we both have identical evidence, it's only our interpretations of it and logic that differ. I will shut up right away, but the last time I'm going to repeat myself before leaving the talkpage is to say again, Sage Mode isn't about mutations. I wish a nice day to both of you ;) --[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:54, August 12, 2013 (UTC)
 
:Let me make my points really really simple. If you disagree with any of the points (or feel a point is missing), specific which and explain why; '''Otherwise drop this'''.
 
#Senjutsu = group of techniques.
 
#Senjutsu chakra = a mix of physical/natural/spirital energy inside the body.
 
##If senjutsu chakra is not balanced you will turn to stone.
 
#Sage Mode = Mode in which abilities have been empowered by balancing natural energy inside the body with other chakras.
 
##The toad version of this mode causes humans to gain pigmentation around the eyes, but why do you want toads to gain even more pigmentation?
 
##I do not believe fukusaku could lift that large toad statue without his abilities being empowered by such a technique...
 
— [[User talk:Simant|S<small>im</small>A<small>nt</small>]] 12:35, August 12, 2013 (UTC)
 
::All those points make complete sense, but the only setback is that Fukasaku and Shima were not listed in any databook as users, or toads and snakes for our concerne, there is where our view of facts gains strength opposing to yours. I am going to leave it to rest now. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 14:21, August 12, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::The thing here @Dan is while the databooks aren't '''wrong''', they tend to only refer to a limited number of topics, and sometimes tend to lack information...if the databooks had any specific paragraph talking that toads and snakes and whatever did not use Sage Mode, or if they use someother form of a powerup, i'd agree with you and @TTF...the databooks don't deny any of that, they simply don't mention any of it, which like everything else here, makes them neutral...remember...lack of mention =/= confirmation. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 14:28, August 12, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
== Imperfect Toad Sage Mode ==
 
Reading the most recent chapter and watching Naruto's/Minato's senjutsu enhanced Resengan, TTBall, and etc. made mewonder about Jiraiya's [[Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan]] when he went up against Pain, who then preceded to '''absorb''' it with the [[Preta Path]]'s abilities, ''without turning to stone''. While we can conclude that it obviously makes chakra stronger in every way, can we accurately say that he can ''empower/infuse'' his techniques with senjutsu chakra? If so, then it wouldnt make sense that Pain could absorb it, right? [[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 11:32, September 4, 2013 (UTC)
 
:Unless I am mistaken, it was stated in a databook that he infuses his Rasengan with senjutsu chakra. If this means that the Preta Path cannot absorb raw senjutsu chakra is up in the air, but unless the databook is wrong or our information gathering was complete ass then he does empower his abilities.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:46, September 4, 2013 (UTC)
 
::Why wouldn't Pretra be able to absorb it? It's the amount that it absorbs that turned it into stone, not the fact that it did it at all. Naruto stood there and fed it natural energy until the adverse effects started showing up.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:53, September 4, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::The way I understood Naruto's strategy, he deliberately unbalanced the senjutsu chakra when Preta Path was absorbing it. I don't know if once senjutsu chakra is balanced, it stays balance, and it needs a "push" to become unbalanced again. Only the unbalanced chakra turns you to stone. If it required constant maintenance once moulded, I reckon Preta Path would have turned to stone when it absorbed Jiraiya's attack, since it would no longer have Jiraiya's control to remain balanced. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:57, September 4, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
When naruto was held down by the preta path, he used that to his advantage to stabilize himself and absorb more natural energy, so that the preta path can absorb it along with naruto's chakra, to the point where he won't be able to handle it anymore and naturally turn to stone, i dont think there was any unbalance in his senjutsu or we would have otherwise seen the effects of it in naruto's appearence, right??--[[User:Charmanking2198|Charmanking2198]] ([[User talk:Charmanking2198|talk]]) 00:07, September 5, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
I think that the reason why the preta path didnt turn to a frog statue, is because Jiraiya's Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan didnt have enough senjutsu chakra in it , i mean even when he was absorbing naruto's senjutsu directly it took some time before he turned to stone and more absorbation of natural energy from naruto's part.--[[User:Charmanking2198|Charmanking2198]] ([[User talk:Charmanking2198|talk]]) 00:12, September 5, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Preta path didn't absorb senjutsu chakra, he absorbed natural energy. Senjutsu chakra is already balanced, it doesn't require being a sage to absorb it without being turned to stone. [[User:MangekyoSasuke|MangekyoSasuke]] ([[User talk:MangekyoSasuke|talk]]) 05:17, September 5, 2013 (UTC)
 
:Like ↑ he said. Preta Path just absorbed the technique with the senjutsu chakra, meaning that the chakra was already balanced with the natural energy. Now, in the other case, he did turn into a stone because he was absorbing the natural energy that Naruto was gathering and that, in any moment, was balanced. A person just turn into stone if it absorbs too much natural energy, but if the energy is already balanced with the chakra there's no reason to suffer the side effects. [[User:Leo Hatake|<span style="color:Orange; font-size:18px;">Leo</span>]][[User Talk:Leo Hatake|<span style="color:Green; font-size:18px">Hatake</span>]] 05:51, September 5, 2013 (UTC)
 
::Well, if you absorb balanced senjutsu chakra and add it to your own chakra it won't be balanced anymore so... yah side effects would show. — [[User talk:Simant|S<small>im</small>A<small>nt</small>]] 12:16, September 5, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
To handle natural energy you need to blance it with your own chakra, not absorb it already balanced with someone else's chakra, besides how can the preta absorb only natural energy he cant choose to do that and i am sure naruto didnt deliberately unbalance his senjutsu to turn the preta to stone, or we would have otherwise seen the effects of it in naruto's appearence, my opinion is the preta didnt turn to stone when he absorbed jiraiya's ultra big ball rasengan because the nartural energy that was inside that rasengan is far less then nagato's chakra that was inside the preta path's body so he survived it.--[[User:Charmanking2198|Charmanking2198]] ([[User talk:Charmanking2198|talk]]) 13:46, September 5, 2013 (UTC)
 
:But that goes against what has been established about natural energy absorption. Look back to what Fukasaku said. If you absorb too little natural energy, nothing happens, when you absorb too much, you begin turning into a toad, and then to stone. Jiraiya couldn't make a perfect balance between the three energies, and he turned a bit into a toad, meaning that his senjutsu chakra was unbalanced towards having more natural energy. We can't know for sure the absolute total, but as far as ratios go, Jiraya's senjutsu chakra had at least a bit more than 1/3 of natural energy, while Naruto's, whose senjutsu chakra is perfectly balanced has 1/3 of natural energy. You're also forgetting that it's not simply a matter of beginning to absorb the energy. If you can't control the flow, the natural energy will overcome you, turning you to a toad, and then to stone. All Naruto had to do was make sure Preta Path had enough natural energy to a point the natural energy itself would rush in, and turn him to stone. This is why I brought up the matter of the chakra requiring balancing once made or not, because that can explain how the unbalance happened once Preta Path began absorbing it, because Naruto himself didn't display any of the signs he displayed when he still couldn't balance it perfectly. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 14:53, September 5, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
== Bijuu Mode + Sage Mode Image (Chapter 645) ==
 
 
Isn't anyone going to add the image of Naruto combining Sage Mode with Bijuu Mode from this week's chapter.--[[User:Itachi7000|Itachi7000]] ([[User talk:Itachi7000|talk]]) 18:09, September 4, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:Can someone please explain why we really need that added when there is no difference between the image in Chapter 645 and the anime image shown in a latter episode before Nagato's death, apart from small markings? Yang-Kurama made it very clear to use the same combination of Sage Mode / Biju Mode that he used when facing Nagato. It's the same thing. --[[User:Speysider|Speysider]] <sup><small>[[User_talk:Speysider|Talk Page]] | [[User:Speysider/Images|My Image Uploads]] | [[User:Speysider/Tabber Code|Tabber Code]] | [http://youtube.com/LPSajuuk Channel]</small></sup> 19:31, September 4, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:: Agreed. There is no difference, therefore no need to change the picture. Its just Sage Mode in addition to the Nine-Tails' chakra being used. Nothing more and nothing less. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 20:36, September 4, 2013 (UTC)
 

Latest revision as of 17:55, October 8, 2014

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Kabuto's image Edit

Wouldn't it make more sense to replace it with one that actually shows his eyes? His glasses obscure them on the one that's used at the present.--Elveonora (talk) 11:59, September 22, 2014 (UTC)

Bump--Elveonora (talk) 09:28, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Do you have an image in mind? SusanooUnleashed (talk) 11:40, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
Something that shows a better close-up of his face, in particular the eyes, without that nerdy glasses reflection.--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 12:23, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
How about this one? Or we could make version of the one on the right without Suigetsu in it and use that one.--Neffyarious (talk) 12:49, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
Is this image appropriate? --Sarutobii2 (talk) 13:48, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
@Sarutobii, that one is great. EDIT: can you take the same shot but in a HD resolution? thanks--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 14:27, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
It's already a 720p upload. I'm going to put it in the article.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna JOA20 14:44, September 27, 2014 (UTC)

I guess ur right, but the old one was of higher resolution--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 16:17, September 27, 2014 (UTC)

Orochimaru Edit

When fighting Sage Mode Kabuto, Sasuke mentions that Orochimaru used imperfect Sage Mode. Also, he was said by Kabuto to have learned how to use it, only not being able to use it because he didn't have the right body. Orochimaru's imperfect Sage Mode that Sasuke referred to is probably his "Great White Serpent" form, which has the same eyes that Kabuto has when he goes into Sage Mode.--Neffyarious (talk) 13:31, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

No, that form was a result of genetic experimentation, but I agree Orochimaru is a user--Elveonora (talk) 13:48, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
I also agree that he is a user since it was stated but that form was said to be his true form that he obtained from long years of experiments done on himself. Munchvtec (talk) 14:00, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Sage Mode is a state that results from Senjutsu chakra. Orochimaru can produce and absorb Senjutsu chakra, meaning he can use Sage Mode. Just because his host bodies can't doesn't mean he shouldn't be listed, after all, he learned Senjutsu before he transferred for the first time and absorbed Senjutsu chakra from Kabuto while having his own body.--Elveonora (talk) 14:08, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
He isn't a user. Kabuto said that Orochimaru was unable to use Sage Mode. • Seelentau 愛 14:45, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
He said that Orochimaru couldn't find a suitable host body to withstand Sage Mode, not that he didn't learn it and couldn't use it with his own body, since he obviously could, otherwise how would he produce and absorb senjutsu chakra?--Elveonora (talk) 15:10, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
One doesn't have to be in Sage Mode to make use of senjutsu chakra (if you did, Madara taking Hashirama's chakra and not turning to stone wouldn't be at thing) one doesn't automatically enter Sage Mode by having access to senjutsu chakra. Now that being said, Orochimaru may know how to enter Sage Mode but if he couldn't ever actually do it then he can't use it.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō (talk) 15:15, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Then how does one enter Sage Mode besides molding Senjutsu chakra? Because from what we have seen, it happens just like that, no activation needed. Naruto deactivated his clones who had gathered natural energy and molded Senjutsu chakra, having their chakras return to his real body and boom! Sage Mode happens, there's no hand seal or anything. And Madara didn't turn into stone because he could control said chakra according to his own words--Elveonora (talk) 15:21, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
I agree with @TU3 in this one, Orochimaru might know everything about Sage Mode and its procedure but Kabuto clearly said that he wasn't able to use it. I could make a research about planes and how to fly them but if I have never flown one, I'm not a pilot, I don't know if that's a good example of my point. I believe that what @TU3 was trying to say is that being able to use senjutsu chakra is not equal to be in Sage Mode, like Jugo for example. So, I don't think Orochimaru is a user. LeoHatake 16:07, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
But Jugo IS using Sage Mode, that being Sage Transformation, I brought that up many times. And Orochimaru doesn't only know about Senjutsu, he can produce Senjutsu chakra and absorb it. There's no evidence at all that Sage Mode is anything else but having Senjutsu chakra flow thorough your body--Elveonora (talk) 16:35, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
I don't see Jugo listed as a user, so Orochimaru is not listed as a user. Simple as that. LeoHatake 16:41, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
@Leo please stop trying to end the discussion short.
@elve, i believe what you are saying because it's true...there is nothing that states that senjutsu is anything else. Munchvtec (talk) 16:42, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
@Leo, because it's a mistake Jugo isn't listed that I would like corrected. Sage Transformation is Sage Mode with mutating bodily fluids as extra, that's all. Not having Jugo listed is like crediting someone with Lightning Release Shadow Clone but not Shadow Clone Technique. And anyone is yet to show that Sage Mode is anything but Senjutsu chakra flowing through their bodies, because all the manga says and shows just that--Elveonora (talk) 16:46, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Jesus Christ. The manga states that Orochimaru can not enter Sage Mode. I don't give a fuck about the reason he couldn't or what the difference between using Senjutsu chakra and Sage Mode is. He could not enter Sage Mode so he won't be listed as a user. • Seelentau 愛 16:50, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Alright man calm done. Munchvtec (talk) 16:51, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
@Munchvtec What? Is it wrong to end a discussion short? Sorry if I'm not used to the long, unnecessary, and endless debates that is placed around here. It Is better to conclude a discussion short and clear with facts, that continue and reach a discussion that only will contain theories, assumptions, speculations and resentments between users.
@Elveonora, the Jugo as user is another discussion, if you want open that can, you are free to do it but here we are talking about Orochimaru. Orochimaru is not listed because Kabuto mentioned that he didn't use it, and if you make that Jugo is listed as a user, then, I will in your path, otherwise, I'm not. LeoHatake 16:59, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
No, it doesn't say that, it says he couldn't find suitable host bodies for Sage Mode, that's not the same as saying "he can't use Sage Mode". Imagine that if Sasuke were to use Fushi Tensei on Naruto for an example, he wouldn't be able to use Sharingan anymore, most probably. So your logic would be to remove Sasuke as Sharingan user because he could no longer use it in new body. I insist that Orochimaru can use Sage Mode with his own body without a host, there's no reason to think otherwise.
I find it highly hypocritical that you choose to be "logical" when it comes to one topic, but chooses to be ignorant about another. And if you don't give a fuck then don't comment. Unless I somehow missed a manga page or databook entry that say there's something else to Sage Mode besides getting empowered by Senjutsu chakra, then there isn't, the burden of proof lies on you--Elveonora (talk) 17:03, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
He could not use Sage Mode because he did not have a suitable host body. So why would you label him as a user when he couldn't use it? And the very fact that Orochimaru can gather natural energy but not use Sage Mode, proves that there's a difference. • Seelentau 愛 17:21, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
the same reason we list kakashi as being able to use those kamui chidori and shuriken jutsu's even though he can't anymore. Munchvtec (talk) 17:22, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
@Seel, hasn't he got a suitable body to use Sage Mode as you say OR he could use Sage Mode, but couldn't since he started using Fushi Tensei, because host bodies couldn't handle it. You say he needs a good host bodies in order to use Sage Mode, I say host bodies are actually what prevents him from using Sage Mode, Kabuto's statement can be interpreted either way and the latter makes more sense to me--Elveonora (talk) 17:25, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
*sigh* I believe you should first think a little bit your words but well, I will try to answer your "burden of proof". It says he couldn't find suitable host bodies for Sage Mode, that's not the same as saying "he can't use Sage Mode. Man, is clear like water, of course that it's the same, if you don't have one of the requirement of something, you are not able to use it. In the research of Orochimaru, he discovered that he needed a suitable body to use the Sage Mode, but, he didn't have it, so he's not a user. So your logic would be to remove Sasuke as Sharingan user because he could no longer use it in new body Of course not, that's ridiculous even to say it, of course that we are not going to remove a Sasuke as sharingan user because he had used it a lot of times. In Orochimaru side, Kabuto said that Orochimaru wasn't able to use it and Orochimaru has never been shown using it (and using the argument that yes was shown using it because he uses senjutsu doesn't apply until you settle the Jugo stuff). I insist that Orochimaru can use Sage Mode with his own body without a host Totally correct, but he wasn't shown using it, so, no. LeoHatake 17:28, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Wait, so do you agree or disagree that hostless Orochimaru can use Sage Mode? Because if you agree, then I'm clueless why you oppose him getting listed, wasn't seen using isn't an argument, because neither was Tobirama seen using Edo Tensei--Elveonora (talk) 17:30, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
The raw says "But... he hadn't yet found a body that could endure it (Jugo's power)". • Seelentau 愛 17:33, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Hadn't yet? That means he did find it eventually? Unless I'm having English grammar block at the moment :P--Elveonora (talk) 17:39, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
hadn't yet means that he has not "yet" found a host though he eventually could. Munchvtec (talk) 17:43, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
If Orochimaru didn't find one ever, Kabuto would have used "hasn't found" rather than hadn't, because saying "hadn't found something that could" gives vibe that "he did find it eventually" unless Kabuto used had because he had thought Orochimaru to be dead--Elveonora (talk) 17:47, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
no it doesn't. hadn't means had not while hasn't means has not. their essentially the same word. Munchvtec (talk) 17:49, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Ugh, I'm not arguing about hasn't = has not and hadn't = had not, but usage of hadn't instead of hasn't--Elveonora (talk) 17:51, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Some people are really persistent. I agree that hostless Orochimaru could learn the Sage Mode because Kabuto imply so, but I disagree listed him because one thing is to know that one person is able to do something in certain circumstance and other thing is listed him being able to use something that is unable to use right now. Like @Muchvtec said, he eventually might will be able to use it, and when that happens, we are going to listed him, otherwise, no. Please, just accept it and stop making arguments related with the "vibe" that deliver the characters. I'm done with this topic. LeoHatake 17:52, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
At the time Orochimaru discovered the cave, he did not have a body that could handle the power of Jugo's clan. We don't know if he found one later or not, but that is irrelevant. The only statement about Orochimaru is that he couldn't use it. • Seelentau 愛 17:54, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Excuse me my limited knowledge of English then, but the wording "he hadn't found something that could" means he did find something that can later on, unless I failed a class or two :P--Elveonora (talk) 17:57, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
@Seel, what's the sentence before "he hadn't found body could" part?--Elveonora (talk) 18:11, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Bump, nicely please :P The context is important--Elveonora (talk) 10:28, September 25, 2014 (UTC)
@elveo, hadn't means he had not found one. though i agree he could use sage mode he just simply "had not". Munchvtec (talk) 11:55, September 25, 2014 (UTC)
The meaning of had not is dependent on the previous sentence, because the way it's placed in that sentence alone gives it meaning that he hadn't found a body before he actually did later on, word order and context are important in English.--Elveonora (talk) 13:42, September 25, 2014 (UTC)
I think he atleast "sage" by being able utilise senchakra/ Rage gtx (talk) 14:14, September 25, 2014 (UTC)
Pretty please Seel? All the sentences in relation to Orochimaru and Sagehood :P--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 13:17, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
um...wow you must really want this to happen elveo. ive "never" seen you beg lol. but anyways yeah please seel-san. Munchvtec (talk) 13:20, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
There's only what I said above. Also, you won't change your opinion anyway. • Seelentau 愛 13:22, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
We can't seem to come to a consensus, so what do we do?--Neffyarious (talk) 14:51, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
Found the full dialogue myself... Kabuto indeed says there that Orochimaru wanted to master it but needed a body which he didn't have, so according to Kabuto, Orochimaru isn't a user. But then again, I think Kabuto is wrong, but that's just me. I don't see how someone who can't use Sage Mode can absorb Sage Mode, mold Senjutsu chakra and not turn into stone, but whatever--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 15:07, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
Because Sage Mode isn't a requirement of senjutsu chakra. Madara didn't have it, Obito didn't have it, Naruto used Six Paths Senjutsu in place of it (you can see he lacks the toad markings around his eyes), Jūgo's entire clan uses Sage Transformation, animals don't enter any mode whatsoever, as Fukasaku pointed out, they are already part of nature and use senjutsu naturally, and anyone with a curse mark (Anko, Sasuke, etc.) uses senjutsu through it. There are many ways for humans to preform senjutsu. Sage Mode is not, will not, and never has been the requirement. It is simply a heightened transformation that some users of Senjutsu can use to bolster their physical capabilities even further. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 15:29, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
Except humans are animals in Naruto too, Fukasaku says so.--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 16:02, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
Not to mention the moment Naruto managed to balance energies into Senjutsu chakra, he entered Sage Mode, without being aware that he did so, therefore no special activation, it just happens. There's nothing more to it than Senjutsu chakra--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 10:28, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
Figured I'd point out that when Orochimaru de-activates Kabuto's Sage Mode by draining the chakra through his hand, his hand takes on the same cracked quality as Sage Mode Kabuto's skin. Don't know if that is significant.
Also as mentioned above, Kabuto says that the only reason that Orochimaru did not use Sage Mode was because his host body was too weak, that means that if he had a proper body he could use Sage Mode. We list Guruguru as a user of Mayfly purely because he is a White Zetsu, even though he has never used it, we list Sharingan as one of Kakashi's Kekki Genki, despite the fact that he no longer possess it, so why can't we list Orochimaru as a user of Sage Mode?--Neffyarious (talk) 11:34, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
That's what I think, his host body that he had at the time limited him. I'm 99,99% positive Senjutsu equals Sage Mode no matter what anyone says, because that's exactly what is said and shown during Naruto's toad training, so Orochimaru's real body can use it, while his host bodies can't. In fact the reason the host bodies start to reject him after a while may be because they can't handle Senjutsu chakra.--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 12:18, September 27, 2014 (UTC)

Well, I guess that since Orochimaru utilises Senjutsu he can definitely be given the classification of a Sage. Also, Jugo should be given the Sage classification. But we still have not come to any conclusion as to whether or not to add Orochimaru to the Sage Mode page.--Neffyarious (talk) 04:21, October 5, 2014 (UTC)

Seems people can't come to an agreement about what being a "Sage" includes. Also people really should give themselves a favor and re-read/re-watch the whole Naruto Senjutsu training part, where it's made obvious that Senjutsu Chakra = Sage Mode. Quoting Fukasaku: "too little natural energy, Sage Techniques won't work, too much and you start turning into a toad" then all Naruto does is manage to perfectly balance the 3 energies, with Fukasaku proclaiming that eye pigment is a sign of a true Sage. Naruto falls down from the pillar but doesn't hurt himself and Fukasaku explains that he is in Sage Mode, that's why it didn't hurt. There's no activation, Senjutsu Chakra makes you be in Sage Mode, that's why it's freaking called a mode. Further proven when Fukasaku explains how Senjutsu Chakra differs from ordinary chakra. He attributes to it what we do attribute to Sage Mode, pretty much saying Senjutsu Chakra in body = Sage Mode--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 10:01, October 5, 2014 (UTC)

Jugo Edit

Is there any reason why Jugo is not added as a user? Considering Sage Transformation has been added as a derived technique of Sage Mode so there's really no reason he shouldn't be. Victory9000 (talk) 22:04, October 6, 2014 (UTC)

No, you got it wrong, man. Sage Transformation is NOT derived from Sage Mode. Yes, both use senjutsu chakra, but what Jugo transforms into is because of his clan's unnamed ability. They can passively absorb natural energy. A Sage Mode user is trained in absorbing natural energy, for Jugo, it was a genetic trait. Plus, if you want to get technical, IMO, Sage Mode is a type of Sage Transformation, given that those in Sage Mode have the limitation of having to stand still to absorb, while Jugo's clan passively absorb natural energy. Jugo is a Sage Transformation user, not a Sage Mode user. Sage Mode users have to train and learn (and have red markings around their eyes) how to absorb natural energy, that wasn't the case with Jugo and others who used Orochimaru's Juinjutsu. • WindStar7125 [Moderator] WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 22:10, October 6, 2014 (UTC)
Sorry Windstar, but you've got it wrong. Sage Transformation is Sage Mode with x-men fluids. And Sage Mode isn't Sage Transformation, because there are no Jugo Clan's fluids. If what you say were true, Kabuto wouldn't be a Sage Mode user, because he uses Jugo's way.--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 12:00, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
I never said Sage Mode being derived from Sage Transformation was true, I said "In my opinion (IMO)." Give me a break, man. Lol. • WindStar7125 [Moderator] WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 12:09, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
Also, Kabuto was trained under Sage Mode by the White Sage Snake. He used Jugo's way to eliminate the setback of having to stand still like a normal Sage Mode. • WindStar7125 [Moderator] WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 12:12, October 7, 2014 (UTC)

During Naruto's training at frog mountain, all Sage Mode is was explained to be mixing physical energy, spiritual energy and natural energy, molding Senjutsu Chakra, that's a manga fact. By that definition any Senjutsu Chakra user would be Sage Mode user and Jugo uses Senjutsu. I'm yet to see any evidence contrary to that--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 12:15, October 7, 2014 (UTC)

There is a reason why this wiki has Sage Mode and Sage Transformation as two different things. Yes, both use Senjutsu chakra, but Sasuke isn't considered a Sage due to his Curse Mark Transformation. • WindStar7125 [Moderator] WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 12:21, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
Lets not bring the iffy label "sage" into this. This is about Sage Mode. Using canon, can you disprove it being anything else but a state of body empowered by Senjutsu Chakra ? I don't think so, but be my guest--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 12:26, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
Sage Mode is the intentional absorbing of natural energy and finding a balance, only changing slightly, with the ability to perform Sage Art techniques. Sage Transformation is the passive absorbing of natural energy that is unbalanced and can lead to inconsistent transformations, more wild body transformations, with no sign of being able to preform Sage Arts.
You may wish to ignore it, but there is a reason why Jiraiya and Naruto are considered "Sages" while Jugo is not. Being a sage means they can transform into Sage Mode at will and get specific techniques to use as well. Jugo's Sage Transformations essentially just give him the passive ability to just have natural energy, I have yet to see him actually weaponize it in any way.
Tl;Dr; Sage Mode and Sage Transformation are similar but have a noticable difference between the two, one being on purpose thus making them a sage, the other uncontrolled making them "mutating monster man".--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō (talk) 13:09, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
So Kabuto isn't a Sage Mode user because his absorption is unintentional by your judgement. And no, Sage Transformation isn't the passive absorbing of natural energy that is unbalanced. Sage Transformation is what happens when Jugo molds Senjutsu Chakra, not the kekkei genkai itself and also has nothing to do with imbalance. Even if Jugo were to perfectly balance the Senjutsu Chakra, he still would use Sage Transformation, it occurs because of bodily fluids in his body.

Not to mention Jiraiya's Senjutsu Chakra wasn't perfectly balanced and he still was a Sage Mode user. I'm quite sure that if Jugo were to go to magic animal kingdom place and be taught Sage Art, he could use them, it's not like you learn Sage Art from your arse.--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 13:21, October 7, 2014 (UTC)

@Ulti, I don't think your grasp of some of the terminology and concepts is correct, but thanks for your contribution anyway.--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 13:48, October 7, 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, TU3. • WindStar7125 [Moderator] WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 16:51, October 8, 2014 (UTC)
1)Edits go at the end WindStar7125.
2) Don't get smug with me Elvenora. I know exactly what I'm talking about, I'm just not making sweeping assumptions to make myself look smart. Jugo's passively absorbing natural energy and transforms into wild and out there forms. That isn't Sage Mode. Naruto purposely gathers natural energy and balances to the point where he doesn't die. That is Sage Mode. The two are similar but not one in the same, so you can now stop going into every discussion trying your damnest to make it so. Because damn if you want them to be the same so bad, why aren't you arguing that the two articles be merged and make Jugo a sage? Exactly.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō (talk) 17:04, October 8, 2014 (UTC)

Merger would be wrong, because non-Jugo junkies aren't using Sage Transformation, but I wouldn't exactly oppose a section in Sage Mode article about Sage Transformation, just like we mention Six Paths Sage Technique in Chakra Mode etc.--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 17:33, October 8, 2014 (UTC)

Really, TU3? I've seen many who don't put it at the end... but I guess I got caught. Oh well, I'm doing a good job of making a fool of myself on this topic, lol. • WindStar7125 [Moderator] WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 17:55, October 8, 2014 (UTC)

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