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== Slug Sage Mode? ==
 
   
Considering it's been confirmed that slugs (Katsuyu) come from the Shikkotsu Forest in the most recent chapter, and that is the only other place besides Mount Myoboku (Toads) and the Ryuchi Cave (Snakes) where you can learn Sage Mode. Logically, the third version of Sage Mode that Hashirama Senju used is probably Slug Sage Mode. But since it isn't confirmed, it cannot be added. But I think it's worthy of being put into the trivia. Thoughts anyone? {{SUBST:User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4/sig2}} 01:08, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
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== Kabuto's sage mode ==
   
I think what your saying sounds logical but like you said it's unconfirmed.Although im not a 100% sure about putting it in a trivia without further proof.[[User:Whiteraven1|Whiteraven1]] ([[User talk:Whiteraven1|talk]]) 01:17, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
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As some might know, I [[User:Seelentau/RTS#Jūgo and the Juin|translated]] Kabuto's words about Jugo's clan and the sage transformation some time ago. In chapter 579, Kabuto says "Immediately, Orochimaru-sama tried to gain that power... but... he did not yet have the body to withstand it... So... just like me, not even he could attain the ''perfect sage'' method!". Could someone please provide the VIZ translation of that part? • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|]]</sup> 12:28, April 22, 2016 (UTC)
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:Just curious, why asking?--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 19:04, April 22, 2016 (UTC)
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::Because the possibility exists that a) Orochimaru could use an imperfect Sage Mode and/or b) Kabuto's Sage Mode isn't perfect. Depending on the translation. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 19:47, April 22, 2016 (UTC)
   
: See the discussion on [[Talk:Hashirama Senju|Hashirama's talk page]]. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 01:47, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
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http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=707977 Check this out, it claims it covers up to chapter 613 [[User:QuakingStar|QuakingStar]] ([[User talk:QuakingStar|talk]]) 23:50, April 22, 2016 (UTC)
   
Where do you get the "only place to learn Sage Mode" for all we know, someone can learn Sage Mode in their bed at home while watching TV.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:31, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
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Viz: "He finally tracked down the source of the power... ...And that was the Ryuchi Cave. Lord Orochimaru immediately tried to acquire that power... But... He didn't yet possess a body that could tolerate it... That's why... He couldn't become the perfect sage '''that I have become!'''"--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 00:56, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
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:Seel's translation is quite different I see.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 08:46, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
Because, Kabuto stated there are only 3 places to learn Sage Mode. From the toads at Mount Myoboku, the snakes in the Ryuchi Cave, and from the Shikkotsu Forest. Which has been recently confirmed to posses slugs. Considering Naruto learned Toad Sage Mode from toads at Mount Myoboku, Kabuto learned Snake Sage Mode from snakes at the Ryuchi Cave, and Hashirama Senju has a third version of sage mode that we've never seen. Logically, it is Slug Sage Mode. {{SUBST:User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4/sig2}} 14:13, June 21, 2013 (UTC) @Elveonora
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::I'm asking because to me, the Japanese sentence makes it sound as if they were both not able to attain a perfect sage mode... Imma ask OD about it~ [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 12:07, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
:Not true. Kabuto said he found the Ryūchi Cave which was equally as famous as Mount Myōboku and Shikkotsu Forest. Saying that those are the only places to learn Sage Mode is akin to saying that only Konoha-nin can learn Sage Mode then.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:34, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
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:::If your translation is correct, then it indeed sounds like it that either Orochimaru can use Sage Mode but not perfect or that Kabuto's too is imperfect. But doesn't Kabuto brag on later how he is a perfect/true Sage?--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 12:50, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
::Absorving natural chakra as its secundary effects, almost impossible to be learned alone, because most of the people don't know that is even possible to absorve natural chakra and how to do it, it as to be teached or seen, and those three places being mentioned as the only places that someone could learn to absorve natural chakra i don't remember. Hashirama could easely observed how frogs do it, like Minato did with Rasengan inspiring into Tailed-Beast Bomb, and being Hashirama the most brilliant shinobi ever since Rikudou, he could developed his own Sage Mode. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 14:46, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
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::::Dunno about that. What I know is that OD translates it the same as me: "He's just like how I am now; he's still unable to attain the means to be a perfect (/complete) sennin.". Do you want me to explain the Japanese sentence/my problem with it? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|]]</sup> 20:20, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
:::That's the point, there's no proof any animal taught him that. He could have managed to learn it by himself, theoretically--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:11, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
::::Yeah but besides if {a big if} Hashirama managed to create his own sage mode then what should his sage mode be called.Should it be called the Senju sage mode.Don't get me wrong im still debating about the whole Slug Sage Mode thing.But if it's later confirmed that this isn't slug sage mode then this is what it should be called.[[Special:Contributions/74.89.213.43|74.89.213.43]] ([[User talk:74.89.213.43|talk]]) 16:36, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
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So what do you suggest?--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 22:01, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
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:Moving Kabuto's sage mode to the imperfect section. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 22:10, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
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::Well if you are right, then it's not surprising. It wouldn't make sense for it to be perfect. Since he has Jugo's powers and the intake of natural energy is constant, he would have to keep perfect balance of physical and spiritual energies with present amount of natural energy at all times. Naruto let's say can choose how much natural energy to absorb and fit it perfectly with his chakra. But when Kabuto's physical and spiritual energies go down from exhaustion let's say, the natural energy keeps coming, which means there's imbalance. Likewise, even if his chakra doesn't go down and he is freshly woken up, as more natural energy keeps coming, in order for the balance to be perfect, he would have to continuously mold more and more chakra adequate to the ever incoming natural energy, sounds impossible. But that's just my take on it. What about Orochimaru though?--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 22:45, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
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:::What about him? He still doesn't have Sageification. He ain't got no bodiiii • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 22:55, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
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::::How come his tattoos contain his senjutsu chakra then? Not to mention the tidbit about having been bitten by white snake sage and surviving, being worthy to be taught senjutsu. Also if your translation is correct, it says that Orochimaru indeed is a Sage, albeit not a perfect one. Also it says he didn't then *yet* have fitting body, implying he has come to possess one eventually.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 23:03, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
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:::::Because, for the thousandth time, Senjutsu chakra doesn't equal Sage Mode. And he never got bitten by the Hakuja Sennin. And my translation says that Oro didn't have the body, right? That's why he couldn't become a perfect sage. Or whatever. I'm too tired to discuss this with you, man^^ • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 23:10, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
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Kabuto's wording may be strange, but the idea that he's an imperfect sage doesn't totally add up. The panels in question portray him boasting about his power, so it would be pretty strange for him to pridefully announce how imperfect he is, especially when he later goes on to say he's the closest being to the Six Paths. Don't suppose the databook has anything to contribute on this matter?--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 01:15, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
   
I highly doubt ANYONE even him can simply learn on his own sage mode. That is a ridiculous assumption. I believe he was taught by somebody one way or another [[User:ItachiWasAHero|ItachiWasAHero]] ([[User talk:ItachiWasAHero|talk]]) 05:55, July 18, 2013 (UTC)
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What about this Seel? *The Power of the White Snake is conferred by the White Snake Sage of Ryūchi Cave, by biting a person and injecting them with its natural energy. Those who survive are deemed worthy of being taught Sage Mode*
:This is an easy one, couldn't resist. Logic says, that there has to be first of something every time. Who was the first Sage ever (any species) taught by? Bingo, someone had to come up with it, that alone confirms it's possible to be self-taught--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:09, July 18, 2013 (UTC)
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Can you provide proof that Senjutsu chakra doesn't equal Sage Mode? To my understanding, Sage Mode is a state that comes to be when one balances the 3 energies (physical, spiritual, natural) to form Senjutsu chakra. Once Senjutsu chakra is in one's body, the said body is empowered by it and enters the said state called Sage Mode. Unless you have proof that one can have Senjutsu chakra in his/her body without the effects being Sage Mode/Sage Transformation/Six Paths Sage Mode, then it's bullshit my brother :)
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Also this is just my understanding of language, but if I were to say: *I didn't have a girlfriend when I was 12* all it would do is inform us that I had no girlfriend at that age.... but if I were to say: *I didn't yet have a girlfriend when I was 12* then it would let us know that I have eventually gotten one at a later time. But I may be wrong, my language skills are certainly inferior to yours, oh great one!--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 09:03, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
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:Listen, all I can do is repeat the manga and the manga said that Orochimaru did not gain access to Sage Mode because he didn't have the body. He obviously knows how to use natural energy and senjutsu chakra, because he's using those for his cursed seals. Sasuke is a user of senjutsu chakra but not of the Sage Mode, right?
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:About the "yet", I don't know. It implies that he eventually got a body, but then again, Orochimaru never used Sage Mode and he he even went as far as creating a makeshift mode in the Cursed Seal Transformation. So whatever Kishimoto's logic here is, all we can do is follow it. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 10:41, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
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::Sasuke's use of Senjutsu chakra was through his tattoo, which is a merger of Orochimaru's Senjutsu chakra and Jugo's enzyme responsible for Sage Transformation. Sasuke wasn't an user of Sage Mode probably because of the same reason as Orochimaru and Jugo aren't, the 3 energies weren't balanced perfectly most likely. '''If I remember correctly, the manga said that too little natural energy, Senjutsu chakra doesn't get produced... too much and petrification occurs''' Then there's Jiraiya whose wasn't completely balanced, yet he did have imperfect Sage Mode. But shouldn't in that case Orochimaru have an imperfect Sage Mode similar to Jiraiya? His balance is apparently enough for Senjutsu chakra to be produced but not too much natural energy for petrification, so wouldn't he fall in Jiraiya's range of imperfect Sage Mode? Unless Orochimaru has Sage Transformation, but he hasn't ever displayed that either to our knowledge.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 11:32, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
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:::Axactly. If you look closely, the black skin around a Senninka user's eyes are similar to Orochimaru's... but whatever, let's just move Kabuto's Sage Mode into the imperfect section. But then again, if he's using Senninka, why is it even a Sage Mode? Where's the exact difference? All this stuff was never answere :/ • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 11:36, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
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::::Only as long as you are absolutely certain, then let's move. Senninka is a result of Jugo bodily fluid's reaction to Senjutsu chakra.
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In my opinion, Jugo Clan's madness is synonymous to petrification in others. Jugo not mad = volume of natural energy is fine... Jugo mad = too much natural energy compared to his physical and spiritual energies. Sage Mode is this: 'perfect balance of physical, spiritual and natural energies' or you could say perfectly balanced Senjutsu chakra as well (Naruto). Imperfect Sage Mode is this: 'little bit more natural energy than physical and spiritual energies, but not too much for petrification to occur' (Jiraiya)
   
Well, that is true. We will just have to wait and see what explanation is given for it if any. [[User:ItachiWasAHero|ItachiWasAHero]] ([[User talk:ItachiWasAHero|talk]]) 22:15, July 18, 2013 (UTC)
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Both Jugo and Kabuto have Senninka but only Kabuto also has Sage Mode, but as you point out, the dialogue suggest imperfect. The reason for that is that even though Jugo's volume/balance of the 3 energies is enough for Senjutsu chakra to be produced, it's not good enough even for imperfect Sage Mode to occur, while Kabuto's might be almost balanced, with maybe just little too much natural energy and not enough physical and spiritual energies, just like in Jiraiya's case.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 12:12, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
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:What if you go insane when you've too much/little spiritual energy and turn to stone when you've too much/little physical energy? • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 12:31, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
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::That's some very nice headcanon. But in the training Naruto started to turn to stone with too much natural energy, then got hit with magical stick which pushed it out of his body. Jugo's madness was also attributed to natural energy. According to databook, Jugo has Yang Release which consists of chakra that has in it mostly physical energy and little spiritual energy. In that case, if your headcanon were right, then madness would be a result of too much physical energy, more than spiritual and/or natural. But Naruto also is a 'Yang type' and he was getting stoned, not insane.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 12:41, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
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:::I think what Kabuto used was actually an SM, not ST, but at least with the add of Jugo's DNA, so Kabuto could constantly absorb natural energy and keep his SM permanently active. And Jugo just compared his ST ability to Kabuto's SM, he didn't really know the difference, yet ST was the ability he was particulary familiar with, unlike SM. Kabuto said that he didn't get a CS (which he called an imperfect copy of the true power), neither he used Jugo's DNA to completely replicate this abililty in his own body, but he travelled to the Ryuchi Cave to learn the "true", perfected version of the power, i.e. the SM. [[User:Ravenlot 27|Ravenlot 27]] ([[User talk:Ravenlot 27|talk]]) 12:48, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
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::::Nah, Jugo in the chapter was written in a way that he perfectly knew what was going on and what he was talking about. When Suigetsu said that Kabuto looks weird, Jugo commented that he himself and Kabuto are the same and it's called Senninka. When Orochimaru sucked out his chakra from Kabuto and the snake transformation disappeared, Jugo commented that Orochimaru also deactivated Senninka.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 12:51, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
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:::::Like I already said, there's no doubt Jugo was familiar with the mechanics of the ST, his own ability. But there's no evidence he could distinguish between it and the SM, especially considering Kabuto's appearance, which looked very confusing back then. ST is kinda natural ability of Jugo's clan, their "natural" version of SM, so to speak, albeit with significant drawbacks. Kabuto (and Oro) found a true source of this power, i.e. Ryuchi Cave, where they could learn "stablised" version of Jugo's ability, the SM, although only Kabuto perfectly succeeded in this. If Kabuto's senjutsu was purely a ST, there was no need for him to travel into Ryuchi Cave and learn SM from the Snake Sage cause he already had what was necessary (i.e. Jugo's DNA) for replicating ST in his own body. [[User:Ravenlot 27|Ravenlot 27]] ([[User talk:Ravenlot 27|talk]]) 13:10, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
   
== Reverting ==
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Sage Mode is superior to just Sage Transformation alone, Kabuto clearly has both. Sage Transformation is Senjutsu powered mutation. Sage Mode has to be learned as it's achieved when Senjutsu chakra is balanced and when it perfectly is, besides the eyes and pigment, there is no physical alternation. Also he learned Sage Techniques at Ryuchi Cave, like [[Sage Art: Inorganic Reincarnation]] and [[Sage Art: White Rage Technique]].--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 13:29, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
Okay, there has been this small revert war happening where Hashirama's Sage Mode is being changed to Wood Sage Mode. Stop this now and explain why someone would want to change it to Wood Sage Mode. [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 12:33, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
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:Databook: "''In Jugo's village, the state after invoking the power of Senjutsu is referred to as "Sage Transformation".''" That wording does seem like it could be implying Sage Transformation is just a region-specific term for any senjutsu-empowered state, be it Jugo's mutations or proper Sage Mode. But of course there's no way to know for sure if that's what it meant until we (hopefully) get more information on Jugo and his clan.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 20:55, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
   
:There is no discussion here, someone is simply putting a fanon name in because they think it sounds better. The only person to use that particular Sage Mode was Hashirama and until Kishi decides an official name for it, we will continue to call it "Hashirama Senju's Sage Mode". --[[User:Speysider|Speysider]] <sup><small>[[User_talk:Speysider|Talk Page]] | [[User:Speysider/Images|My Image Uploads]] | [[User:Speysider/Tabber Code|Tabber Code]] | [http://youtube.com/LPSajuuk Channel]</small></sup> 12:47, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
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== Mitsuki uses Sage Transformation ==
   
::fanon name? Seriously? -.- Look at his [[Sage Art: Wood Release: True_Several Thousand Hands]], and notice that unless he has Wood/Trees Sage Mode, there is no other explanation for this. Besides, calling it 'Hashirama Senju's Sage Mode' sounds pretty stupid. Next time, try to think before canceling an edit. {{SUBST:ס:משתמש:Itachi san/חתימה}} 13:37, July 7, 2013 (UTC)
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We dun goofed. Mitsuki does not have sennin mode (仙人モード), he has sennin transformation (仙人化) [http://i.imgur.com/ZkaiHG3.png{1}]. --[[User:DC52|DC52]] ([[User talk:DC52|talk]]) 09:48, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
:::Shima's technique is called Sage Art: Wind Release Dust Cloud, her Sage Mode isn't Wind Release because of that. All Sage Modes with a confirmed origin stem from summoned animals. There's absolutely no evidence that his Sage Mode stems from his Wood Release. I'd suggest you try taking your own advice. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 15:58, July 7, 2013 (UTC)
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:And that's why it's best to wait for the raws. So Mitsuki either has genes from Jugo's Clan or Orochimaru applied one of his Cursed Seals/Curse Marks on him.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 10:06, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
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::Well, I should've known that mangastream can't be trusted. They can't even differ between 仙人モード and 仙人化, holy shit. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 11:47, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
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:::Anyone going to make changes?--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 12:51, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
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::::I'm ready to make changes, bur here's quick question: is it enough that we add Mitsuki as user in [[Sage Transformation]]-info box and image of Mitsuki's Sage Transformation? --[[User:JouXIII|JouXIII]] ([[User talk:JouXIII|talk]]) 13:10, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
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:::::Go for it.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Akimichi Symbol.svg|30px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:22, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
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::::::Done. --[[User:JouXIII|JouXIII]] ([[User talk:JouXIII|talk]]) 13:33, April 23, 2016 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 20:55, April 24, 2016

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Kabuto's sage mode Edit

As some might know, I translated Kabuto's words about Jugo's clan and the sage transformation some time ago. In chapter 579, Kabuto says "Immediately, Orochimaru-sama tried to gain that power... but... he did not yet have the body to withstand it... So... just like me, not even he could attain the perfect sage method!". Could someone please provide the VIZ translation of that part? • Seelentau 愛 12:28, April 22, 2016 (UTC)

Just curious, why asking?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 19:04, April 22, 2016 (UTC)
Because the possibility exists that a) Orochimaru could use an imperfect Sage Mode and/or b) Kabuto's Sage Mode isn't perfect. Depending on the translation. • Seelentau 愛 19:47, April 22, 2016 (UTC)

http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=707977 Check this out, it claims it covers up to chapter 613 QuakingStar (talk) 23:50, April 22, 2016 (UTC)

Viz: "He finally tracked down the source of the power... ...And that was the Ryuchi Cave. Lord Orochimaru immediately tried to acquire that power... But... He didn't yet possess a body that could tolerate it... That's why... He couldn't become the perfect sage that I have become!"--BeyondRed (talk) 00:56, April 23, 2016 (UTC)

Seel's translation is quite different I see.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 08:46, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
I'm asking because to me, the Japanese sentence makes it sound as if they were both not able to attain a perfect sage mode... Imma ask OD about it~ • Seelentau 愛 12:07, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
If your translation is correct, then it indeed sounds like it that either Orochimaru can use Sage Mode but not perfect or that Kabuto's too is imperfect. But doesn't Kabuto brag on later how he is a perfect/true Sage?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 12:50, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
Dunno about that. What I know is that OD translates it the same as me: "He's just like how I am now; he's still unable to attain the means to be a perfect (/complete) sennin.". Do you want me to explain the Japanese sentence/my problem with it? • Seelentau 愛 20:20, April 23, 2016 (UTC)

So what do you suggest?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 22:01, April 23, 2016 (UTC)

Moving Kabuto's sage mode to the imperfect section. • Seelentau 愛 22:10, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
Well if you are right, then it's not surprising. It wouldn't make sense for it to be perfect. Since he has Jugo's powers and the intake of natural energy is constant, he would have to keep perfect balance of physical and spiritual energies with present amount of natural energy at all times. Naruto let's say can choose how much natural energy to absorb and fit it perfectly with his chakra. But when Kabuto's physical and spiritual energies go down from exhaustion let's say, the natural energy keeps coming, which means there's imbalance. Likewise, even if his chakra doesn't go down and he is freshly woken up, as more natural energy keeps coming, in order for the balance to be perfect, he would have to continuously mold more and more chakra adequate to the ever incoming natural energy, sounds impossible. But that's just my take on it. What about Orochimaru though?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 22:45, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
What about him? He still doesn't have Sageification. He ain't got no bodiiii • Seelentau 愛 22:55, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
How come his tattoos contain his senjutsu chakra then? Not to mention the tidbit about having been bitten by white snake sage and surviving, being worthy to be taught senjutsu. Also if your translation is correct, it says that Orochimaru indeed is a Sage, albeit not a perfect one. Also it says he didn't then *yet* have fitting body, implying he has come to possess one eventually.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 23:03, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
Because, for the thousandth time, Senjutsu chakra doesn't equal Sage Mode. And he never got bitten by the Hakuja Sennin. And my translation says that Oro didn't have the body, right? That's why he couldn't become a perfect sage. Or whatever. I'm too tired to discuss this with you, man^^ • Seelentau 愛 23:10, April 23, 2016 (UTC)

Kabuto's wording may be strange, but the idea that he's an imperfect sage doesn't totally add up. The panels in question portray him boasting about his power, so it would be pretty strange for him to pridefully announce how imperfect he is, especially when he later goes on to say he's the closest being to the Six Paths. Don't suppose the databook has anything to contribute on this matter?--BeyondRed (talk) 01:15, April 24, 2016 (UTC)

What about this Seel? *The Power of the White Snake is conferred by the White Snake Sage of Ryūchi Cave, by biting a person and injecting them with its natural energy. Those who survive are deemed worthy of being taught Sage Mode* Can you provide proof that Senjutsu chakra doesn't equal Sage Mode? To my understanding, Sage Mode is a state that comes to be when one balances the 3 energies (physical, spiritual, natural) to form Senjutsu chakra. Once Senjutsu chakra is in one's body, the said body is empowered by it and enters the said state called Sage Mode. Unless you have proof that one can have Senjutsu chakra in his/her body without the effects being Sage Mode/Sage Transformation/Six Paths Sage Mode, then it's bullshit my brother :) Also this is just my understanding of language, but if I were to say: *I didn't have a girlfriend when I was 12* all it would do is inform us that I had no girlfriend at that age.... but if I were to say: *I didn't yet have a girlfriend when I was 12* then it would let us know that I have eventually gotten one at a later time. But I may be wrong, my language skills are certainly inferior to yours, oh great one!--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 09:03, April 24, 2016 (UTC)

Listen, all I can do is repeat the manga and the manga said that Orochimaru did not gain access to Sage Mode because he didn't have the body. He obviously knows how to use natural energy and senjutsu chakra, because he's using those for his cursed seals. Sasuke is a user of senjutsu chakra but not of the Sage Mode, right?
About the "yet", I don't know. It implies that he eventually got a body, but then again, Orochimaru never used Sage Mode and he he even went as far as creating a makeshift mode in the Cursed Seal Transformation. So whatever Kishimoto's logic here is, all we can do is follow it. • Seelentau 愛 10:41, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
Sasuke's use of Senjutsu chakra was through his tattoo, which is a merger of Orochimaru's Senjutsu chakra and Jugo's enzyme responsible for Sage Transformation. Sasuke wasn't an user of Sage Mode probably because of the same reason as Orochimaru and Jugo aren't, the 3 energies weren't balanced perfectly most likely. If I remember correctly, the manga said that too little natural energy, Senjutsu chakra doesn't get produced... too much and petrification occurs Then there's Jiraiya whose wasn't completely balanced, yet he did have imperfect Sage Mode. But shouldn't in that case Orochimaru have an imperfect Sage Mode similar to Jiraiya? His balance is apparently enough for Senjutsu chakra to be produced but not too much natural energy for petrification, so wouldn't he fall in Jiraiya's range of imperfect Sage Mode? Unless Orochimaru has Sage Transformation, but he hasn't ever displayed that either to our knowledge.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 11:32, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
Axactly. If you look closely, the black skin around a Senninka user's eyes are similar to Orochimaru's... but whatever, let's just move Kabuto's Sage Mode into the imperfect section. But then again, if he's using Senninka, why is it even a Sage Mode? Where's the exact difference? All this stuff was never answere :/ • Seelentau 愛 11:36, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
Only as long as you are absolutely certain, then let's move. Senninka is a result of Jugo bodily fluid's reaction to Senjutsu chakra.

In my opinion, Jugo Clan's madness is synonymous to petrification in others. Jugo not mad = volume of natural energy is fine... Jugo mad = too much natural energy compared to his physical and spiritual energies. Sage Mode is this: 'perfect balance of physical, spiritual and natural energies' or you could say perfectly balanced Senjutsu chakra as well (Naruto). Imperfect Sage Mode is this: 'little bit more natural energy than physical and spiritual energies, but not too much for petrification to occur' (Jiraiya)

Both Jugo and Kabuto have Senninka but only Kabuto also has Sage Mode, but as you point out, the dialogue suggest imperfect. The reason for that is that even though Jugo's volume/balance of the 3 energies is enough for Senjutsu chakra to be produced, it's not good enough even for imperfect Sage Mode to occur, while Kabuto's might be almost balanced, with maybe just little too much natural energy and not enough physical and spiritual energies, just like in Jiraiya's case.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 12:12, April 24, 2016 (UTC)

What if you go insane when you've too much/little spiritual energy and turn to stone when you've too much/little physical energy? • Seelentau 愛 12:31, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
That's some very nice headcanon. But in the training Naruto started to turn to stone with too much natural energy, then got hit with magical stick which pushed it out of his body. Jugo's madness was also attributed to natural energy. According to databook, Jugo has Yang Release which consists of chakra that has in it mostly physical energy and little spiritual energy. In that case, if your headcanon were right, then madness would be a result of too much physical energy, more than spiritual and/or natural. But Naruto also is a 'Yang type' and he was getting stoned, not insane.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 12:41, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
I think what Kabuto used was actually an SM, not ST, but at least with the add of Jugo's DNA, so Kabuto could constantly absorb natural energy and keep his SM permanently active. And Jugo just compared his ST ability to Kabuto's SM, he didn't really know the difference, yet ST was the ability he was particulary familiar with, unlike SM. Kabuto said that he didn't get a CS (which he called an imperfect copy of the true power), neither he used Jugo's DNA to completely replicate this abililty in his own body, but he travelled to the Ryuchi Cave to learn the "true", perfected version of the power, i.e. the SM. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 12:48, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
Nah, Jugo in the chapter was written in a way that he perfectly knew what was going on and what he was talking about. When Suigetsu said that Kabuto looks weird, Jugo commented that he himself and Kabuto are the same and it's called Senninka. When Orochimaru sucked out his chakra from Kabuto and the snake transformation disappeared, Jugo commented that Orochimaru also deactivated Senninka.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 12:51, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
Like I already said, there's no doubt Jugo was familiar with the mechanics of the ST, his own ability. But there's no evidence he could distinguish between it and the SM, especially considering Kabuto's appearance, which looked very confusing back then. ST is kinda natural ability of Jugo's clan, their "natural" version of SM, so to speak, albeit with significant drawbacks. Kabuto (and Oro) found a true source of this power, i.e. Ryuchi Cave, where they could learn "stablised" version of Jugo's ability, the SM, although only Kabuto perfectly succeeded in this. If Kabuto's senjutsu was purely a ST, there was no need for him to travel into Ryuchi Cave and learn SM from the Snake Sage cause he already had what was necessary (i.e. Jugo's DNA) for replicating ST in his own body. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 13:10, April 24, 2016 (UTC)

Sage Mode is superior to just Sage Transformation alone, Kabuto clearly has both. Sage Transformation is Senjutsu powered mutation. Sage Mode has to be learned as it's achieved when Senjutsu chakra is balanced and when it perfectly is, besides the eyes and pigment, there is no physical alternation. Also he learned Sage Techniques at Ryuchi Cave, like Sage Art: Inorganic Reincarnation and Sage Art: White Rage Technique.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 13:29, April 24, 2016 (UTC)

Databook: "In Jugo's village, the state after invoking the power of Senjutsu is referred to as "Sage Transformation"." That wording does seem like it could be implying Sage Transformation is just a region-specific term for any senjutsu-empowered state, be it Jugo's mutations or proper Sage Mode. But of course there's no way to know for sure if that's what it meant until we (hopefully) get more information on Jugo and his clan.--BeyondRed (talk) 20:55, April 24, 2016 (UTC)

Mitsuki uses Sage Transformation Edit

We dun goofed. Mitsuki does not have sennin mode (仙人モード), he has sennin transformation (仙人化) [1]. --DC52 (talk) 09:48, April 23, 2016 (UTC)

And that's why it's best to wait for the raws. So Mitsuki either has genes from Jugo's Clan or Orochimaru applied one of his Cursed Seals/Curse Marks on him.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 10:06, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
Well, I should've known that mangastream can't be trusted. They can't even differ between 仙人モード and 仙人化, holy shit. • Seelentau 愛 11:47, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
Anyone going to make changes?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 12:51, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
I'm ready to make changes, bur here's quick question: is it enough that we add Mitsuki as user in Sage Transformation-info box and image of Mitsuki's Sage Transformation? --JouXIII (talk) 13:10, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
Go for it.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 13:22, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
Done. --JouXIII (talk) 13:33, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
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