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== Madara ==
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He basically just stole it from Hashirama, but he also stated that he managed to master it very quickly, so he should be listed as a user, right? [[User:Norleon|Norleon]] ([[User talk:Norleon|talk]]) 12:49, December 4, 2013 (UTC)
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:I think it is the same with his Wood Release. It doesn't matter if the ability was stolen or acquired through body modifications, if he is using it, then he is an user. [[User:Shadow Abyss|Shadow Abyss]] ([[User talk:Shadow Abyss|talk]]) 13:27, December 4, 2013 (UTC)
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::I think the situation is a bit subtler than that. With Wood Release, all Madara needed was a physical piece of Hashirama to be grafted in his body. For Sage Mode, even though he already had the physical implant, he had to go to Hashirama. He drained Hashirama of his senjutsu chakra (which I find very odd, since I don't recall Hashirama being in Sage Mode the last few chapters). He didn't make the senjutsu chakra himself (as far as we know), we don't even know if Madara knows the mechanics of how senjutsu chakra comes to be (though I believe he does). We don't consider people Naruto gave tailed beast chakra to be jinchūriki, so I don't think Madara should be considered a Sage Mode user, even if he's using the senjutsu chakra. The whole situation is murky. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:45, December 4, 2013 (UTC)
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:::Hello sempai. In regards to Madara i would have to disagree a bit...in an earlier chapter, he said he was going to take Hashi' senjutsu powers in chapter 647. Now in this one Madara says how the power of the senjutsu chakra was dissapointing and he believed it would be harder to control it. Not only that, but we say the perfect Sage pattern appear in Madara's chest face. Also we know that if unless senjutsu chakra can be balanced, the user will display animal traits and eventually turn into an animal statue. Being a sage is being one who can balance and control senjutsu chakra within himself. From where i see it, Madara simply took a shortcut to attain the same result. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 00:51, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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::::But there's something that has never been clarified: does senjutsu chakra require active balancing once it is made? I mean, do you have to keep balancing the spiritual, physical and natural energies once the senjutsu chakra is made, or once made in the perfect ratio, the chakra is stable? I also find it very odd that it was only the Hashirama face that got the markings, and that Madara himself didn't get them. And I repeat, Madara himself has not made the chakra as far as we know. We don't list every shinobi Naruto gave Kurama's chakra a host, because the source of the chakra is not in them. Madara may have a Hashirama graft, but the graft was not the source of the chakra he is using. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 01:40, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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::::::But as Madara said, he did had to control the senjutsu chakra, even if that took less effort than what he originally assumed. Also i believe once the initial control is gained the chakra remains stable, but as we all know senjutsu chakra doesn't renew itself so for sages, there is no chakra source, they have to take the energy from outside sources and balance it with their own. If Madara hadn't gain control over the chakra, he'd turn into an animal like the Preta Path when he absorbed Naruto's chakra. And it was defined in the article that control (even if imperfect) over senjutsu chakra is what makes a sage. Also the Kurama comparison doesn't really fit here sempai, since we are talking about two very different types of chakra. Graft or no graft, that face is a part of Madara's body, thus its part of Madara himself and as such anything derived from it is Madara's own at this point.
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::::::*Another little side detail to add to this is Madara's insane sensing prowess after his revival. Given how Uchiha senses are restricted to visual/dojutsu ones and how once that is lost, their battle prowess takes a nosedive. (Izuna's death and Madara's final defeat against Hashi comes to mind.) I ask...how did Madara managed to dance around a Sharingan/sword master's attack, sense the peculiar traits of Sasuke's Sharingan, all while being effectively blind? The only type of sensing prowess this strong is that of a sage...remember Kabuto vs Sasuke and Itachi? Kabuto was also blind to prevent genjutsu and still outfought the brothers due his sensing in Sage Mode. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 01:57, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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The Preta Path case isn't the best example, since the zoom in Naruto when he opened his eyes sort of implied he himself introduced an imbalance in the senjutsu chakra while it was being absorbed. And it's not the senjutsu chakra per se that transforms one into an animal and then a statue, it's the overwhelming natural energy that does if you can't control its flow. Regarding sensing, Madara has been noted a sensor for a while now, and not due to his eyes. I goes back to at least when he first detected Hashirama's and made that psycho face. He's been listed as a sensor at least since then. Kabuto wasn't exactly blind. His brille made a filter to his eyes, you could still see the snake pupils behind them when they were lowered. Base Madara already had sensing. If anything, I'd say that the sage chakra is boosting an ability he already had. This is similar to Orochimaru's case. We know Oro's cursed seals contain his senjutsu chakra, but those who use his cursed seals are not Sage Mode users. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 02:13, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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:If Naruto had introduced the imbalance, the perfect sage pattern wouldn't have appeared on his face...it would look like Jiraiya's pattern if anything and in no way was it implied that Naruto gave the Preta Path imbalanced chakra...if anything he overloaded him with senjutsu chakra to turn him into a statue, but the statue turned into stone ''because'' it couldn't handle the senjutsu chakra. Yes Madara is a sensor, but to the degree of compensating the loss of his dojutsu, a major pillar in the Uchiha's fighting style? Kabuto did blind himself...he said at least once or twice to Itachi that he had cut off his eyesight to prevent eye based genjutsu. Why are you bringing Oro's cursed seals, when we know those were derived from Jugo's KKG...which ''is'' a different thing...however Madara did display the pattern signs of perfect sage control and remarked that he had to exert control over the chakra...all traits of a sage. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 02:23, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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::The focus on Naruto only happened when the shading around his eyes was all but over. Introducing an imbalance in the chakra would have snowballed in the Preta Path, leading to the petrification. Regarding Madara's sensing, what I'm saying is that even if he is using sage chakra, he's not using Sage Mode itself. I brought Orochimaru up because despite the cursed seals coming from Jūgo, the explicitly say that the cursed seals contain Orochimaru's senjutsu chakra. It's in the pages that show Orochimaru taking back his chakra from Kabuto. I still don't see pigmentation around Madara's own eyes, which according to Fukasaku are the sign of a true sage. Madara essentially took sage chakra someone else had a put in a graft battery. I'm saying that Madara is a similar situation to Orochimaru in which one has senjutsu chakra, but not Sage Mode itself. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 03:13, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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:::People keep saying that Hashi's face is a graft. Has no one ever assumed it was a mutation caused by the introduction of the First's Dna into one's body? Madara himself said that he infused the DNA into his wounds. So that's not a graft, its a mutation side effect, he didn't build and plaster a second Hashi face into his body, neither did Danzo. Its like having an extra limb...just because it's extra, what's done with it is still yours, your doing, possession and responsability. Also wasn't a similar discussion brought up, when someone wanted to separate senjutsu from sage mode? Wasn't it concluded that excluding Jugo/Oro's seals due to them being KKG-bound, that regular individuals were required to enter Sage Mode in order to use senjutsu. So unless you wanna unleash that box of scorpions again. The sage pattern appeared in Madara's face, in this case ''his second face''...and even if he did what you say he did sempai, he's still a sage at this point, since he still had to balance and control the senjutsu chakra he took in without the aid of a KKG...it maybe an atypical case, but the traits exibited by Madara are more aligned with ''Sage Mode'' than ''Sage/Cursed Seal Transformation''.[[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 03:29, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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: Madara is not using Sage Mode. He stole Hashirama's chakra and is using his "Hashirama face", if you will, to use ''Hashirama's'' Sage Mode. Therefore he is not a user. All this about him "controlling the chakra" is irrelevant and seems to be nothing more than a desperate attempt to list him as a user. It is A) Not his Senjutsu chakra, B) Not his Sage Mode, and C) Not his own body controlling it, but the "Hashirama face" doing it for him. He should not be listed whatsoever until he is shown using it on his own. Its absolutely no different that Kakashi and the other shinobi using Naruto's Kyūbi chakra after he gave it to them. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 04:08, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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:: So by that standart, please remove him (and everyone who's not Hashirama) as a Wood Release user, since he can only use it because of the "Hashirama face". Sure just toss aside one of the main pillars of sage mode/senjutsu, which is actually managing to not get turned into an animal statue, that makes perfect sense. "''Not his own body controlling it''"? Last time i checked...Hashi's face isn't detachable from Madara's body like a Lego piece, nor is it a tool of any kind, but a mutation caused by the integration of the First's DNA...Madara may be using Hashi's face, but that face is a part of Madara's body now, like anyother of his limbs so you saying he's using the face is like saying he's using the left arm instead of the right to swing a blade...its all part of his body...not originally sure, but it is now...that's like saying that a person who has an extra limb isn't responsible/can't control what that extra limb does...[[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 04:29, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
   
== Structure of the article ==
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:::The precedent Kabuto created with his chest snake means that if you are in control of some freaky growth that can use some other technique, you are using that technique. So yeah, lets not try and think to stupid on this one. Madara is using Hashirama's Sage Mode, he gets listed as using Sage Mode.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 04:34, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
   
If you look at Kabuto's Sage Mode, it's impossible to distinguish between:
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::: No disrespect intended when I say this, but that has to be the most asinine reasoning for listing someone as a user I've ever heard. With Wood Release and Kabuto's snake... thing, the genetics of the person using the technique were apart of their new user; Wood Release in Danzo, Obito, Yamato, etc., and the Sound Four's in Kabuto. We saw him injecting the blood. Madara cannot use Sage Mode. He didn't absorb natural energy from the air and mix it with his chakra to make Senjutsu chakra, he stole the Senjutsu chakra Hashirama already had and used it through HASHIRMA's body parts that had been grafted into him. How the hell is that, in the sweet name of the baby Jesus, usage of Sage Mode? ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 06:58, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
* the actual Snake Sage Mode
 
* Juugo's abilities
 
* Orochimaru's abilities
 
* Suigetsu's abilities
 
* Karin's abilities
 
Kabuto's sensing prowess is a combination of Sage Mode and Karin's abilities. Kabuto's healing is a combination of Orochimaru's and Karin's abilities. The ability to change your body exists with Juugo's, Orochimaru's, and Suigetsu's abilities. The way Kabuto looks is a combination of Sage Mode, Juugo's DNA and Orochimaru's DNA.
 
   
Given all that, wouldn't it be a much better idea to get rid of the heading "Snake Sage Mode" and use the heading "Kabuto's Sage Mode"? You could even extend it to the whole article:
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@Dark, to clarify, the Hash-chest-face is Kabuto's work as confirmed in the latest chapter, it didn't happen to Madara as he had gotten Hash's cells at all, just white skin. For the Sage Mode, yes, he is a user I believe, but if he should be listed as a Sage is questionable. As stated, it's the Hash-chest-face that has gotten the facial markings, not his own. And THIS IS EXACTLY why I brought up a while ago a forum about us listing users having KKG powers or otherwise as either them being temporary (transplant/experiment) or permanent (blood trait). So what does that tell us, true, he is no less user of Sage Mode now than Danzo was of Wood Release. Even tho he can do it only thanks to a foreign matter attached to his body, he had to control it and managed to and as such is a user. But a Sage has to be able to sense, absorb and balance natural energy himself, which he hasn't done. So short story: user of sage mode- yes but not a sage, reverse case of Orochimaru.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:17, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
# General description of Sage Mode
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::Mhm. The Spoken word. Glad to see you editing again Elveo. Sorry to just jump into this discussion. But i agree.--[[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 14:37, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
# Description of Jiraiya's Sage Mode
 
# Description of Naruto's Sage Mode
 
# Description of Kabuto's Sage Mode
 
It would also make it easier to turn the lists in this article into proper paragraphs.--[[User:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis]] ([[User talk:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|talk]]) 18:09, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
As of my topic above, I disagree completely with the article the way it is now. Also Kabuto's sensing prowess being partially from Karin? Now then, that's a speculation. The way I get it, the only reason why Kabuto has physically changed is due to Orochimaru's DNA + Sage Transformation.
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:::Asinine it may be Ten Tailed Fox, but it is what it is. He has a freaky construct of Hashirama's face on his chest, he absorbed Hashirama's senjutsu chakra and is able to manipulate it under his own will. He himself may not be in Sage Mode, but he is using it. Unlike Danzo, Madara is in control of his stolen ability, Danzo was not. WHen he got messed up the Wood Release ran wild.
And again, both Sage Modes grant equal advantages, there are no such things as "toad sm" and "snake sm" mentioned in the series--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 20:59, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
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:::That being said, he is not a sage because he didn't actively learn the art of senjutsu he just sucked it out of one person.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 16:18, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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:::: I know he's not a Sage, but he doesn't even seem to be in the least bit familiar with Senjutsu chakra. "''So this is the coveted Senjutsu chakra.''" Doesn't say to me he even knows what he's doing. I mean, its like Omnibender said. Naruto gave ''everyone'' in the Alliance Kurama's chakra. Shoot, the Rookies even used a Tailed Beast Mode cloak. We're not listing them as psuedo-jinchūriki because they controlled that chakra, did we? No. Its no different here. I just don't like the faulty, paper-thin layer of logic that some seem to be using as an excuse to list him as a Sage Mode user. He's not. But, if that ends up being the consensus, I won't fight it. Just seems like a ''really'' big mistake to me. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 16:30, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
   
:I saw your topic. We both agree that the article in its current state is bad. We agree that there is no such thing as Snake Sage Mode. And I think you agree with the structure I proposed, because you mentioned something similar.
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:::: Madara said that he thought he would have a hard time '''manipulating''' it. Might just be better to wait for Raws though.''[[User:UltimateSupreme|<span style="color:#0078ff; text-shadow: 0px 1px 0.4px #0054d3, -1px -1px 1px white, -2px -2px 6px #0093f4;">~Ultimate</span>]][[User talk:UltimateSupreme|<span style="color:#f00; text-shadow: 0px 1px 0.4px #f33, 1px 0px 1px white, 2px 2px 6px #f33, -2px -2px 6px #f33;">Supreme</span>]]'' 17:04, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
:About Karin. We know that Karin is good at sensing. We know that Kabuto has Karin's DNA. We don't know whether that influences Kabuto's sensing prowess in Sage Mode. It's just an argument '''against''' calling it Snake Sage Mode, and in favour of calling it Kabuto's Sage Mode.
 
:The article in its current form has 12 section headings for the main content! It has general information listed under Toad Sage Mode. It has irrelevant information listed in the usage section. It might as well not have an introduction. It mentions advantages in three sections. It mentions disadvantages for Toad Sage Mode that are actually disadvantages for everyone. It's a mess.
 
:It also ignores that we have essentially seen 4 different versions of Sage Mode. The basic one is the one we see when Fukasaku trains Naruto in Frog Kata, and has the disadvantage that you run out of sage chakra. That problem can be solved by fusing with Fukasaku and Shima as we've seen with Jiraiya (the 2nd version of Sage Mode). Naruto solves the problem with Shadow Clones, making it the 3rd version. Kabuto solves it with Juugo's DNA, making it the 4th version. But wouldn't guess that from the way the article is written.--[[User:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis]] ([[User talk:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|talk]]) 22:05, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
::That is incorrect. You're looking at Sage Mode as changing to a different version based on how it's used, but that's not right. We don't know about the Snake version of Sage Mode, , imperfect and perfect. Ma and Pa on your shoulders is just them using [[Amphibian Sage Technique]] to sit on their shoulder. That is not a different version of Sage Mode.
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TU3, what does Kabuto's navel snake have anything to do with this? The snake was never implicated in his use of Sage Mode, only in the skills he acquired from Orochimaru. He already had the snake while not in Sage Mode. The thing that sets Madara apart in this case, is that this isn't simply a case of grabbing a physical part of a third party and having access to its abilities. Madara already had the Hashigraft, and yet he had to go grab the senjutsu chakra from Hashirama himself. If he's at least aware of how senjutsu works, he'd certainly Gary Stu his way into mastering the whole process in half a heartbeat, like the overachiever he is, making the whole theft of the chakra pointless. Another example of non-use of technique, is Rasengan. Rookie 9 each took a Rasengan and slammed Obito with it, but we don't list them as users. Madara is the same thing. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 17:51, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
::Also, having subsections is not a problem. We are an encyclopedia, we chronicle information. If that information requires heading sections, then it gets heading sections.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 16:17, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
:::What Fukasaku explains about Sage Mode; what the difference is between perfect sage mode and imperfect sage mode; it's all applicable to Snake Sage Mode, because we haven't been told otherwise. They're all simply [[Sage Mode]]. Kabuto uses the benefits of [[Sage Transformation]] to overcome the same problem for which Naruto used Shadow Clones.
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Should it not be noted that Hashirama's SM increases regeneration? As Madara's wound from Sasuke's 'Kusanagi' explicitly healed up within a very short time after adopting the pseudo-SM. Maybe this is what Madara was referring to about Hashirama's Byakugou-esque healing? [[User:Pesa123456789|Pesa123456789]] ([[User talk:Pesa123456789|talk]]) 19:25, December 8, 2013 (UTC)
:::Sage Mode on its own is only useful if you want to rearrange the stone statues of toads. Or if you can prepare Sage Mode in advance; ambush your enemy; and defeat him quickly before you run out of Sage Chakra. So yes, [[Sage Mode]]+[[Amphibian Sage Technique]] is a different version of Sage Mode, because it's far more practical than Sage Mode on its own. Without solutions like Amphibian Sage Technique, Shadow Clones and Sage transformation, all that's left of [[Sage Mode]] is an incomplete technique. So it's not just different uses; it's an incomplete technique with 3 different ways to make it complete.
 
:::So you're saying that heading sections like "advantages" and "disadvantages" are required? You're saying that headings that use the phrase "Snake Sage Mode" are required; even though that's not canon? You're reply ignores the basic fact that sections shouldn't be used if you only have one paragraph of information.
 
:::In the end this article shows that you can't keep adding information to it and hope it remains making sense. Sometimes you have to reorganise the information.--[[User:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis]] ([[User talk:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|talk]]) 20:19, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
:::::Mistake number 1: Assuming things are the same when we are not told otherwise. We don't assume when we aren't told.
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Hash cells in themselves heal and shi* as shown with Obito, nothing with senjutsu. But I thought what healed Madara was QB chakra anyway--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:03, December 8, 2013 (UTC)
:::::Mistake number 2: No, Sage Mode + Amphibian Sage Technique is ''not'' another version of Sage Mode. It's Sage Mode with two old toads merged to your shoulder. Naruto could go Sage Mode perfectly well by remaining still and gathering natural energy. The entire point of the two toads was so one can do so in combat. Naruto has gone into Sage Mode on and off perfectly multiple times during the war without the need of a clone (or just a clone of him do it instead of his actual body), still perfect Sage Mode.
 
:::::Clarification number 1: If they are required, then yes. They could also be moved into paragraph format, but I feel it's easier to have them in a listed format, that way one wants to know what the disadvantages of Sage Mode is, one just has to go to the article, click the header for disadvantages, and wow look there it is.
 
:::::In the end, the issue I'm having is your belief that there are random versions of Sage Mode when, as of now, we are aware of there only being two and that's the difference between Toad and Snake. Yes, while the name may not be canon, the fact that a perfect Snake Sage has different properties than a Toad Sage is notable (Naruto is a perfect Toad Sage, the only differences is the pigment around his eyes. Meanwhile Kabuto is a perfect Snake Sage, and he gained ''a lot'' of snake features.)--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 20:42, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
@Ultimate, those are physical/visual differences, there are none in benefits. Also the former might be only due to sage transformation/jugo's dna/orochimaru's dna and not a common result--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:10, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
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:By the Light this is still going?
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::The snake has nothing to do with Sage Mode. I was pointing out that Kabuto pulled out Orochimaru and the Sound Five from the naval snake and we count him as having used their techniques and their kekkei genkai. Ergo, Madara pulling out Sage Mode and putting it into his Hashichestface and as he said he can manipulate it to mean means, unless we just decide to say "eff it" and decided just because all hate Madara that he isn't using Sage Mode, he is using Sage Mode.
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::And I thought i brought up the Rookie 9 thing. The Rookie Nine actually didn't do a damn thing. They jumped into Naruto's chakra, Naruto formed the Rasengans and all his friends did was push. They ain't manipulate nothing. It was the same thing when Naruto pushed Killer B's tailed beast ball through 30 barriers.
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:Now that being said, I'm already bored witht his discussion. If we want to say Madara is not using Sage Mode then I'm willing to just call everyone out for bullcrap but let it be removed without a fuss anyway so long as we also take into account Kabuto's actions with his weird body modifications.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 02:37, December 9, 2013 (UTC)
   
@TheUltimate3
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But the difference with Kabuto is that all those techniques, implants or not, originated within him, in his body. Madara already had the Hashirama face in him, and even them he had to go take the senjutsu chakra. That is what I think constitutes the Orochimaru-like situation of using senjutsu chakra, without actually using Sage Mode. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 00:12, December 10, 2013 (UTC)
   
Mistake 1 = Assuming things are different when we have no information that says otherwise. Which means we can only look at what the manga has given us, and that's ONE Sage Mode.
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== Questionable Content ==
   
Mistake 2 = The whole point of Sage Mode is that it's useless in combat UNLESS
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For some time now, the article has been broken up into sections more or less stating that there are different Sage Modes. In the past I've questioned the source of this, and I never felt I was given adequate justification, and certainly not in the vein that is usually demanded on the wiki. There seems to be zero mention in the manga by ANY practitioner of Sage Mode that what Hashirama and Kabuto do is any different, in terms of the basal technique, to what Naruto does.
* you arrive at the battle already in Sage Mode (like Naruto did against Pain); or
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Now, one thing offered up is that Kabuto and Hashirama have different designs around their eyes, and that Fukasaku noted that Naruto had the eye designs of a true sage. Well, that's not accurate actually. All Fuksasaku said (Ch. 418 pg. 5) is that the dark pigmentation around the eyes are the mark of a true Sage, he never made mention or note of it being specifically a mark of a Toad Sage, or anything else, just that of one who has perfected Sage Mode. And given both Hashi and Kabuto fit that description, and made no mention of using some specific brand of SM, I'd put in my suggestion that the article be fixed to remove a lot of unfounded assumptions one must make for it to make sense. Thoughts? [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 07:29, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
* you manage to buy yourself some time to get into Sage Mode (like the clumsy toad did for Jiraiya; like the Alliance did for Naruto; and which Kurama's Chakra Cloak did for Naruto)
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:At the very least, it could be separated by user, so we could say "Naruto Uzumaki's Sage Mode" or "Kabuto Yakushi's Sage Mode" instead of made-up names like Toad Sage Mode and Snake Sage Mode which imply different types. The current implication that each version has different strengths and weaknesses also seems unnecessary. Stating things like Kabuto's and Hashirama's not having enhanced durability because Sasuke's sword could cut them seems like a big assumption; Pain's rods could pierce Naruto after all.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 07:39, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
and even then you have to make sure that:
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::I really don't understand how there can be different sage modes. The sage mode is simply the state of ones body when it absorbed natural energy. There are no different kinds of natural energy one can absorb and we don't have the slightest explanation for why the absorbtion of the same energy results in different looks. So yes, I agree with Beyond, we should differ by user, not by looks. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 09:34, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
* you either beat your opponent '''before''' you drop out of Sage Mode; or
 
* you find a solution to the problem that you can't gather natural energy while moving.
 
Buying the time to get into Sage Mode is the easy problem. Trying to maintain Sage Mode is the difficult problem, and without a solution it's useless for combat purposes.
 
   
Mistake 3 = If you want to see Sage Mode as nothing more than gathering natural energy and mixing it to create Sage Chakra which would lead to Sage Mode, than the article shouldn't need any of the other information. You could pretty much copy and past Fukasaku's explanation to Naruto into this article and lock the page. All the other information should then be moved to the appropriate character pages. If you're going to argue a certain position, at least draw the logical conclusion from it.
+
:::Agreed Seelentau. It is just balancing natural energy with one's own inner energies after all. I think one thing we might do is simply mention that all known perfect sages (among humans anyway) had different designs around and on the eyes, but they all possessed the distinctive mark of a perfect Sage that Fukasaku mentioned. It avoids all extra assumptions but mentions how each user differs aethestically. But should we split it by user? I can't really think of anything in particular that Kabuto or Hashirama did with the form itself that was noticeably different from Naruto. They each just seemed to power-up their techniques. Suggestions? [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 13:44, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
Clarification number 1 = We are aware of 3 schools of teaching; 3 schools that teach Sage Mode. We now know that the Toads teach Sage Mode and that the Snakes teach Sage Mode. We were never told that these were *different* Sage Modes. The only thing they might teach different are the ways to use Sage Mode, and their preferred solutions to some of the problems associated with Sage Mode.
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::::Hey Skitts long time no see, I was wondering where you have gone to ^_ And yes, thank you for bringing up again one of my favorite unresolved and ignored topics!!! Now, all we have to do is await for naysayers and unnamed sysops to come and paste a giant red NO on our foreheads to prove their might and ignorance. I'm not having anyone specific in particular on my mind of course :D Just generally speaking about those who disagree. And yes, there should be a single section listing all the benefits of Sage Mode, not for "different" modeS since there are none other and a removal of the animal labels as well. There is just this weird phenomenon for those who were taught by snakes turn into snakes, those that by toads into toads etc. so there's where the assumptions of different modes come from--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:50, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
  +
:::::Hey. Real life (school and work), hobbies and forgetfulness kept me away. I still checked in every so often, just never got involved. xD Anyway, I'd question whether individuals who were taught by snakes would turn into snakes. We've never seen Kabuto loose control of natural energy, so the safest assumption is that he would turn into a toad as Naruto nearly did and the Preta Path actually did. Kabuto was already a snake, after all. :) Sage Mode just seemed to enhance his snake-related abilities, which is unsurprising given Fukasaku mentioned one's abilities are increased by it (ex: Naruto's healing rate and stamina). [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 14:45, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
Clarification number 2 = We haven't been shown what the Snakes teach. We don't even know how a person that has been taught Sage Mode by the Snakes looks like. What we have seen is the end result of: (a) the Sage Mode as taught by the Snakes; and (b) a shitload of DNA modifications done by Kabuto himself. In fact, Kabuto's Sage Mode could be seen as a hybrid of [[Sage Mode]] and [[Sage Transformation]] with no answers to questions like: (i) What are the benefits of that combination?; (ii) What are the drawbacks of that combination?; and (iii) How would such a combination change the looks of someone in Sage Mode as taught by the Snakes?.
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::::::But Preta Path having turned stone toad statue is a problem, isn't it? This for one gives evidence to their assertion of "animal specific" modes. But why would Kabuto have turned into a toad had he failed to master it? That would have implied Sage Mode having origins with the toads. Only good thing is that if that were true, it would actually take away credibility to their assertion of different modes, because it would mean every single Sage Mode is "toad sage mode" So basically both evidence for and against appear to be contradictory to the explanation as why that happens.
  +
::::::If everyone turns into a toad no matter what, it means a single Sage Mode, if it differs from person to person (which we are yet to see) then that doesn't necessarily mean many different modes :) So I think there's more evidence for a single Sage Mode--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:57, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
In the end Kabuto's Sage Mode is exactly the same as [[Sage Mode]]+[[Amphibian Sage Technique]] but with the added problem that we can't distinguish between the two. You're drawing the illogical conclusion that one is a different version of Sage Mode while the other is not, based on the same facts and using the same arguments. The only thing we know for sure is that perfect sage mode taught by the Snakes will lead to a different pigmentation around the eyes, though we don't know why and how the pigmentation becomes different. We haven't been told that Sage Mode taught by the Snakes will lead to different properties (e.g. speed and strength) in Sage Mode.
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:::There seems to be no need to divide it into sections. All are basically the same. Probably a '''Known Sage Modes''' or something similar in the end might work.--''[[User:UltimateSupreme|<span style="color:#0078ff; text-shadow: 0px 1px 0.4px #0054d3, -1px -1px 1px white, -2px -2px 6px #0093f4;">~Ultimate</span>]][[User talk:UltimateSupreme|<span style="color:#f00; text-shadow: 0px 1px 0.4px #f33, 1px 0px 1px white, 2px 2px 6px #f33, -2px -2px 6px #f33;">Supreme</span>]]'' 15:04, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
What we disagree about is basically this:
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::@Elveonora The Preta Path example is the one that best supports the idea of a single Sage Mode. Remember, all Naruto did was pass on natural energy (or maybe senjutsu chakra) to him through his absorption technique, and the Preta Path, who had no known affiliation with any Sage location, still turned into a toad. And this doesn't indicate necessarily that Sage Mode originated with the toads (although it wouldn't really matter), as Fukasaku just said that a toad transformation and pretrification were the natural effects of not controlling the natural energy, not that it had anything to do with who Naruto was affiliated with when learning it. So given Kabuto drew in natural energy for the mode as all Sages do, the best assumption is that improper use would result in a toad transformation.
* Sage Mode = impractical Sage Mode as Fukasaku taught it to Naruto before trying the [[Amphibian Sage Technique]] and failing
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:Well, I guess I'll get to it then. Or should we wait for more yays and nays? [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 15:35, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
* Sage Mode = impractical Sage Mode plus ways to make Sage Mode usable
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::Maybe we should look at the broader picture of natural energy. The Shinju, natural energy embodied, originally a tree, has taken upon MANY form. Shapeshifting/transformation is a trait of natural energy it would appear. Same for Jugo's Clan and Curse Mark users, they all have different forms. And as such I don't like the notion of every Senjutsu School dropout turning into a toad and would like to ignore the Preta Path instance altogether. Perhaps Kishi didn't give it as much thought as we do. I like to convince myself that the form they take is dependent on their personality traits. This would explain why for example Jugo, who has unstable mind can shapeshift into many things, while Curse Mark users who did not get the madness part all have just a single form.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:51, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Either way, the article needs rewriting to make it clear.--[[User:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis]] ([[User talk:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|talk]]) 23:31, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
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:::Well now, that's the kind of speculation we're trying to remove from the article. :) What the Shinju does is kind of irrelevant here, it's the origin of all chakra too after all, and chakra has all sorts of uses. We already know there's a shapeshifting element to natural energy, just look at what happened to Jiraiya. Jugo's clan is something of a special case, in that it's their Kekkai Genkai that allows them to do shapeshifting after absorbing a little natural energy, and Orochimaru's Curse Marks are just an imitation of that. And not to sound mean, but it doesn't really matter what you want to be the case, but Fukasaku did note that a toad transformation and petrification is the drawback to improper Sage Mode, with no qualifications. The Preta Path instance cannot be ignored because it was a demonstration of that, with Fukasaku confirming that when it happened. Oh, and madness IS a part of the Curse Mark. Remember, one of the Sound Four told Sasuke that if he remained in the Curse Mark Leve 2 state for too long, he would begin to loose control mentally (Jugo's clan) and the energy would take over his body (like improper Sage Mode). [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 16:22, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
I almost completely agree with you, I'd rewrite the article myself, but I don't want to start an edit war. The way it's now is not only incorrect but confusing/misleading.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 01:25, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
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It was said that they would become like Orochimaru, not like Jugo. And I know we are trying to remove speculation, I was speaking hypothetically what would fit and make sense to me. The article just needs to be streamlined without actually removing anything. @Seel, would you look at it?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:53, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
:Wait for others to chime in on opinions and thoughts. My largest issue with what is proposed is the idea that there are 4 different versions of Sage Mode based on if a toad is on your shoulder or not, but I don't have the patients to continue reading/responding to such incredibly long responses.
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:Sometimes I think we're the most backward wikia. I really wish that we could agree upon one thing, stick with it, and wait for clarification. Instead we beat dead horses, and those amongst us that were enlightened by JesusBuddhAllaHindugods but walks amongst us lowly humans finds every opportunity to undermine the wiki they can't walk away from. Not you Turry, how u doin~
:Rewriting an article is a bigger task than a single section, wait for others to voice opinions before making a move.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 04:46, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
:::I hope that my analogy to ''incomplete technique versus completed technique'' helps with understanding what I mean when I used the word "version".--[[User:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis]] ([[User talk:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|talk]]) 19:11, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
Not really a rewriting, just merging of sections, separating of others, cutting here and pasting there etc. also removal of speculation--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 05:16, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
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:Any way, we all are supposed to know by now that Sage Mode is just that - Sage mode. We tried to differentiate them because they aren't all the same. Modes learned through different methods reflect differently on persons. Toads look like toads, snakes look more like snakes. Are we supposed to ignore that? Are we supposed to differentiate Naruto's Mode from Jiraiya's even though they both learned from toads? To me the sections explains each usage as accurately as possible. If the pseudo-titles are that much of a bother, they can be changed but we can't lump them all together and ignore the obvious differences. --[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 17:17, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
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::That's the thing, Kabuto looked like that even without Sage Mode, it just gave him horns. Curse Mark gave Kimimaro- the bone guy, more bones, yet we don't consider that to be the Curse Mark's specific trait. We don't have any reason to believe that without Kabuto's prior experiments he would have looked any different than Naruto, with just the eyes changing. So the only "anomaly" is Hashirama, he we can say has "specific" mode until we learn more. But the animal labels irk me, also there's no reason to repeat "improved strength, speed etc." for each users, it's same for all.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:26, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
How is this article confusing? I don't know how much this will help but as the article stands now I am fine with it. The only reason it is confusing to you guys is because you're taking things you don't have a clue about and adding them to the mix. It should be:
 
* Sage Mode-Toads
 
** mention all we know
 
*** Also make note of the perfect balance and imperfect balance that the two disciples have achieved
 
** acknowledge the traditional method (with a sage toad to aid in process)
 
*** also mention the way Naruto uses it (with clones)
 
* Sage Mode- Snakes
 
** '''Assume that everything Kabuto did then is a product of Sage Mode''' unless/until mentioned/told otherwise. Then annotations can be made.
 
All that information is represented on the articles, it's just that you have all gone too far in dissecting Kabuto's Sage Mode. I realise that the people who always have problems with the way articles are, are the ones that go off on tangents and want to jump the proverbial gun and we don't do that here. Once the information is available to us, where we can reference it, and have evidence then that's when we move, not before. I'm not sure if you guys understand or no, but this is a method that has to be used to streamline content on the wikia so we don't lose credibility in the information that is found here.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:05, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
The only thing I could advocate for regarding this page, is that the image in the infobox is no longer accurate and a neutral one, possibly just showing the mixing/balancing of natural energy would be better.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:09, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
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This whole thing is problematic entirely because of Kabuto as far as I can tell. He's the only one that has other animal traits in Sage Mode, but one can't forget that he was a snake beforehand. My only problem is that it seems the only real reason we have the article like it is because Kabuto shenanigans. And I'm good Cerez. How goes you browski? [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 17:30, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
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:Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we already have "toad sage mode" before Kabuto was even revealed to be a Sage Mode user?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:32, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
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::Nope. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 17:34, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
:@Cerez365...That assumption flies in the face of everything we've been shown in the manga. Kabuto's appearance was already changing when he put Orochimaru's DNA in himself. And everyone that uses a derivative of Juugo's abilities changes his appearance, just like Juugo himself does. Kabuto is using Sage Mode and Sage Transformation together, just like Jiraiya uses Sage Mode and [[Amphibian Sage Technique]] together. You can't just assume that everything Kabuto does is the result of Sage Mode, because it's explicitly said that it isn't. Why else would the DNA of Juugo, Karin and Suigetsu be mentioned?
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:Cerez reflects my issue with lumping all of the Sage Mode styles together. Basically when you want to get down to it, yes there everything is Sage Mode. But then you get into the seperate styles: Naruto and Jiraiya learned Sage Mode from the toads. Kabuto and Orochimaru learned Sage Mode from the snakes (tho Kabuto was the only one who could make actual use of it).--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 21:26, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
:The structure should be:
+
"He's the only one that has other animal traits in Sage Mode" ~ Skitts
:* Sage Mode
 
:** Mention all we know (basically everything that Fukasaku explained).
 
:*** Mention the existence perfect sage mode and imperfect sage mode.
 
:*** Mention the existence of 3 places where Sage Mode is taught, and that the pigmentation around the eyes show at which place you learned Sage Mode.
 
:*** Mention that most users have a method of making it more usable in combat.
 
:* Jiraiya's Sage Mode
 
:** Mention that Jiraiya is an imperfect sage, and that he uses the traditional method as taught by the toads to make Sage Mode usable in combat and refer to the article [[Amphibian Sage Technique]].
 
:*Naruto's Sage Mode
 
:** Mention that Naruto is a perfect Sage.
 
:** Mention that Naruto couldn't use the method taught by the toads and had to come up with his own solution: Shadow Clones (and how he used it in his battle with Pain, maybe).
 
:* Kabuto's Sage Mode
 
:** Mention that Kabuto learned Sage Mode from the Snakes; that he would therefore look more like a snake than a toad; and that it's unknown how a Sage would look in its pure Snake form.
 
:** Mention that Kabuto used Juugo's DNA and [[Sage Transformation]] to solve the same problem that Naruto used Shadow Clones for.
 
:** Mention how Kabuto infused himself with DNA from Karin and Suigetsu and refer to the relevant section in Kabuto's character article.
 
:That's a far more usable and canon compliant structure than the current article has. It also prevents unnecessary duplication of information (see advantages and disadvantages sections). It also allows contributors to compare a specific character's use of Sage Mode against the general characteristics of Sage Mode, instead of forcing a reader to compare and contrast various uses of Sage Mode against eachother.--[[User:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis]] ([[User talk:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|talk]]) 14:46, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
* Kabuto's appearance changed because Orochimaru's cells were fighting to take over Kabuto's body. That has nothing to do with Jūgo. It's akin to Hashirama's cells trying to turn Danzō into a tree, or else have them sprouting his face on his arm and Madara's chest, so you're wrong in that regard.
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Not true, Jiraiya's hands, feet and face all took on toad like traits because he wasn't a "Perfect" sage. At the same time, in Sage mode, both Jiraiya and Naruto's eyes gain horizontal slits, whereas Kabuto gained vertical slits, which, given what happened with Kurama's power and sage mode, if the horizontal slit is indicative of Sage mode, and his eyes had the slit as a result of experimentation, shouldn't he has + shaped eyes too? Jugo, as the only example of his clan's ability without tampering, has no defined animal trait, but unsurpassed transformation properties compared to the rest. Hashirama's Sage form comes with markings unlike the others, but no particular animal trait or transformation from what we've seen. While all these characters possess a Sage Mode, or in Jugo's case a transformation related to the absorption of natural energy, none of them except the two trained by Toads share traits beyond facial marking, so saying that all Sage modes are the same is a lot more inaccurate than splitting them up. Even if they are mechanically the same, superficial things like the different facial markings and mutation from failure are seemingly independent of one another.--[[User:Hawkeye2701|Hawkeye2701]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye2701|talk]]) 21:47, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
* It's not an assumption, it's lumping all the information together. I did not say they weren't factors into Kabuto's abilities but as this point, we're unable to discern what is what except for what has been told to us:
 
** How do you know that Kabuto is using Sage Transformation and not just using Jūgo's ability to passively absorb chakra? How do you know that that's simply how someone who uses ''snake'' Sage Mode is supposed to look?
 
** How do you know that Kabuto's been using Karin's Mind Eye of the Kagura (which is ridiculously impossible to steal via DNA) and just doesn't possess her ability to heal?
 
** As for Suigetsu, Kabuto was able to copy his [[Hydrification Technique]] and create the [[Body Fluid Shedding Technique]].
 
* There is no such thing as perfect and imperfect Sage Mode. These are terms that we engineered for compartmentalising sake all of which is already mentioned. Ergo, Naruto and Jiraiya's forms don't have to be separated any more than they are now.
 
* Kabuto's:
 
** You're assuming that's not what a "pure" Sage would look like. There's nothing to compare it to, so where are you forming your basis from? SPECULATION
 
** {{Quote|Kabuto assimilated the DNA of Jūgo to replicate his clan's ability to passively absorb natural energy, thus allowing him to continuously collect the energy even while moving.}}
 
** Information about the assimilation of DNA '''unrelated''' to his Sage Mode is mentioned in his article.
 
* Like I've said before, I personally see nothing wrong with the article's structure and the most I would change is a picture or two. We are supposed to chronicle '''what is said in the series''' not the foregone conclusions that we draw on our own.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 16:02, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
@Cerez365...You're committing quite a few strawman fallacies to "prove" that I'm wrong. Cut it out!
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:Hawkeye, you do realize I was talking about people who complete Sage Mode, right? Hence why I only brought up Naruto, Kabuto and Hashirama in that instance. Further, Kabuto ALREADY had vertical slits before Sage Mode, as well as most of all the animal traits. All he gained were horns as far as we can tell. Saying that all Sage Modes are the same is the most canonical thing to say given statements by Fukasaku that I've already mentioned, namely that the defining mark of a Sage is dark pigmentation around the eyes. He didn't make not of any particular design, but of dark pigment alone, which both Hashirama and Kabuto certainly had. And come on man, NO WHERE have we seen mutation from misuse be anything other than turning into a toad (i.e Preta Path and Naruto). We've never seen Kabuto or Hashi loose control, so you've no leg to stand on for your case.
  +
::@TU3 What do you mean by different styles? Different teachers sure, but I can't recall any display of anything specific to a particular user of Sage Mode, aside from individual techniques. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 22:12, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
You insist on using the phrase "ability to passively absorb natural energy". Fine, substitute that every time I use the phrase [[Sage Transformation]]. It doesn't alter my argument, but you seem to ignore that part in favour of saying that I'm wrong. <s>(BTW, isn't Sage Transformation the name of Juugo's kekkei genkai?)</s>
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:::It means exactly as it sounds. While there is one Sage Mode, there are three known styles of it: Toad, which Naruto and Jiraiya use, Snake, which Kabuto can do and Orochimaru knows about, and Whatever-the-Eff-Hashirama-Does which Hashirama does. Trying to change it to imply that each Sage Mode is unique to the user implies that the toads at Mount Myōboku can teach someone how to grow brille over their eyes, or a snake from the Ryochi caves can teach someone Frog Kata.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 22:49, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
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::::I could have sworn at one point that the article had an I commented mention that there was no such things as Toad or Snake Sage mode and that they are simply there out of convenience of us chronicling the information. The longer titles like "Sage Mode - taught by toads/snakes" would be bad for linking them in other articles.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 01:59, January 14, 2014 (UTC)
   
You acknowledge that there are factors contributing to Kabuto's appearance and abilities. And yet you fail to draw logical conclusions from that; conclusions that are consistent with the manga.
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Okay, so I figured I'd get to this since there seems to be basic agreement. So my thought is to essentially remove the noticeable implication that there are distinct-ish Sage Modes, and merge them, give the general effects that Sagee Mode has been confirmed to have. Kabuto didn't display anything fundamentally or substantively different from Naruto, the Toads or Hashirama, so we seem good there. I think the only important thing to note is, as I said earlier, that while all of the designs of completed Sage Mode users differ, yet they all possessed the distinctive marker of a true sage that Fukasaku mentioned (dark pigment around the eyes). We good? We good. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 01:42, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
# We know how a perfect toad sage looks like: perfectly human except for the pigmentation around the eyes. The logical conclusion is that it's the same for a perfect snake sage. Is that speculation? Perhaps, but the significant part is that it's '''less speculative than the opposite conclusion''' (which would be that a snake sage is supposed to look like Kabuto did).
 
# We know that quite a few things that Kabuto assimilated will change your appearance. Sage Mode is just one of several factors that change Kabuto's appearance. The logical conclusion is that we're seeing Kabuto's Sage Mode. The illogical conclusion is that we're seeing "Snake Sage Mode".
 
# The manga says that there are 3 places that teach Sage Mode. The manga doesn't say that there are 3 '''different''' Sage Modes corresponding to 3 '''different''' animals. The logical conclusion is that there is only '''one Sage Mode'''.
 
# The manga is pretty clear about the fact that Sage Mode needs '''something''' to make it useful in combat. It's why I referred to Sage Mode as an incomplete technique (as well as to clarify my use of the word "version"). The manga has shown us three ways:
 
## Sage Mode + [[Amphibian Sage Technique]]
 
## Sage Mode + [[Shadow Clone Technique]]
 
## Sage Mode + [[Sage Transformation|Jūgo's ability to passively absorb natural energy]]
 
Given this information '''from the manga''', it makes sense to treat the three times we've seen Sage Mode used in combat (the "completed" sage mode) just as important as the ("incomplete") Sage Mode.
 
   
You say that: ''We are supposed to chronicle what is said in the series not the foregone conclusions that we draw on our own.'' '''But that's exactly the problem with the current article.''' Calling it "Toad Sage Mode" and "Snake Sage Mode" emphasizes the personal interpretation of fans. Simply calling it "Jiraiya's Sage Mode", "Naruto's Sage Mode" and "Kabuto's Sage Mode" de-emphasizes any personal interpretation '''and allows us to emphasize what is actually said in the manga'''.--[[User:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis]] ([[User talk:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|talk]]) 19:03, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
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:The subsections are probably still neccesary to some extent. It could be organised like the Susanoo article - a general overview talking about how it works and what it does (enhanced jutsu, strength, speed, perception, etc.), then subsections for Jiraiya, Naruto, Kabuto, and Hashirama. The subsections could talk about things specific to each user, like Frog Kata, Muki Tensei, Jiraiya forming toad feet, etc. as well as Naruto's method of entering the Sage Mode. This way no unofficial terms are used at all, but all the information is still present and organised.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 02:34, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
   
I see no reason no reason to change the article. It's fine as is for me. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 21:27, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
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::As stated in the edit summary, yeah the last comment (Cerez) implies the discussion was still moving, it just fell off. Good job starting it up again. Maybe this time we can actually get to a conclusion.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 03:12, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
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:::EDIT:And maybe simply just undo my edit and reinstate Skitts. From my first pass of it it doesn't seem wrong, if only a tad formated oddly (It looks weird to me. Probably fine, just looks strange to my old man eyes.)
  +
:::And for reference, there is Skitt's version of the page [[User:TheUltimate3/Sage Mode|Click me]].--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 03:17, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Do note that I did all of this because i do like to get a clear end of a discussion. If nobody does say anything, I will consider this the end and make Skitt's version official anyway.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 03:19, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
   
@Omni,
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(edit conflict times 2)
* the intro is : "Sage Mode is the result of using natural energy along with a ninja's normal chakra to drastically empower all their abilities"
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@BeyondRed Huh? Muki Tensei is a technique, not a special ability of Kabuto's Sage Mode, Frog Kata is just a fighting-style and Naruto doesn't do anything special in entering Sage Mode. Those subsections are somewhat redundant. The only useful one you mentioned would be the one for Jiraiya, but only because his is the only imperfect transformation we've seen. The others seem superfluos, and the way it is currently lends itself to the unmistakeable implication that Hashiram and Kabuto are doing something distinct from Naruto, which we have no evidence for. The current setup itself is using unofficial terms.
Should be: "Sage Mode is a special technique used by Sages of [[Mount Myōboku]] and [[Ryūchi Cave]] that empowers their abilities. Another legendary place known as [[Shikkotsu Forest]] also exists, but it's yet to appear along with it's inhabitants and a Sage representative"
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@TU3 It did? All that Cerez seems to be saying is some of the rationale behind the usage of the terms. If he was, my mistake. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 03:21, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
Also as far as I know, Fukasaku for example isn't a ninja, so theoretically even a samurai could learn it or anyone who is skilled with chakra manipulation for that matter. My version sounds more appropriate as an intro imo.
 
The part about it's workings should be a solely separate section as there's no need to repeat some of the information twice, and Shinobi again should be changed into user/individual or something.
 
   
It's an assumption/speculation:
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:I didn't mean to imply Frog Kata was exclusive to Naruto and that, say, Hashirama couldn't potentially use it because his Sage Mode looks different, that's the sort of speculation that is the current problem. Rather, I think it should be clear that while nothing states other users with "different" Sage Modes can't do certain things (like Frog Kata or Muki Tensei), nothing confirms they can either. At the very least, the article should still have images and descriptions of the four different Sage Modes we've seen, doesn't really have to be in subsections, but that could be a way of organising it so the main section doesn't feel cluttered.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 05:26, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
* That Naruto/Kabuto have different power-ups while it's the very same and only technique using the same natural energy from around them, the terms "snake sage mode/toad snake mode" are basically fanon, there's not even a slight hint that there are more versions and that the benefits they grant differ.
 
* That Kabuto uses perfect/imperfect Sage Mode (we don't know even if it's most likely perfect, but since there are other factors as Orochimaru and Jugo's DNA in the play, it should be called Kabuto's Sage Mode) so stating that horns and shit are a sign of a true snake sage is double speculative. EDIT: already changed/removed partially.
 
So in short, this is how I imagine it:
 
* intro/overview in a nutshell, my proposal
 
* usage/workings/mechanics describing what it is more in detail and containing information about both it's advantages and disadvantages
 
* forms, stating what a perfect and imperfect sages are
 
* users: "Naruto in Sage Mode, Jiraiya in Sage Mode, Kabuto in Sage Mode" with a picture of each representative and a short history about their training and a summary about their "differences and workarounds"--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 03:49, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
Strawman fallacies? Friend when you're wrong, you're wrong. Sage Transformation is what happens to the clan members as a result of absorbing the natural energy. Use context clues and figure that out. All I was pointing out was that the info was reflected in the article. And again to address your list:
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Why is it that no one here has ever thought of there being different types of natural energy? Natural energy comes from the ground and the air, emanating from plants and animals, right? So why wouldn't the natural energy be different? Mount Myoboku and Ryuuchi cave both have large populations of toads and snakes respectively, right? So would it not make sense for most of the natural energy to be emanating from them? And that those who train in those places, learn to absorb those specific energies? Has anyone here noticed that almost every cursed seal release resembles actual animals? (If not, go to Orochimaru's Juinjutsu and look at the prison picture). And how Jugo, one that can absorb natural energy innately, can change into anything he wants? Am I seriously the only one here that knows how to put two and two together to realize that what animal you transform into is dependent on what energy you learn to absorb, and other than that, the abilities are the same? Because the way I see it, its the only logical conclusion, and the fact that there are so many that don't understand that disturbs me. [[User:MangekyoSasuke|MangekyoSasuke]] ([[User talk:MangekyoSasuke|talk]]) 05:45, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
# Both Jiraiya and Naruto's use are mentioned and categorised
 
# Incorrect. The only thing that changed Kabuto appearance was what he took from Orochimaru ergo why Kabuto looked like that when he reabsorbed his "stuff" from Kabuto. If Kabuto had turned out looking like Kevin Levin, you would have had more of an argument. Without even adding the speculation that to think you could absorb a Senju clan descendant and not so much as change hair colour.
 
# The is not one sage mode. There is simple at least three different animals that learned how to absorb, balance and use Sage Mode. Why is this point even here in the first place?
 
# There is no need to me, to mention the different uses of Sage Mode outside said person's section. All the information is represented in the article and it is neither confusing nor lost, and believe me every time something like this comes up I use third party options from people not on the site.
 
In any case I'm done with this discussion, this seems like another of those lost causes/false alarms.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 06:22, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
== seriously? ==
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:I actually have thought of that exact thing before and hope it does turn out to be the explanation, but it's still speculation. We can't but information into the article if it can't be referenced or even directly implied.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 06:30, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
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:That doesn't explain why Kabuto turns into a snake-dragon when there are no snakes around. The same goes for Naruto. How can he turn into a frog sage when there are no frogs around, whose nature energy would be absorbed by Naruto? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 09:17, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
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::Wrong :P Naruto ate a toad and Kabuto had a snake merged with him... /solved?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:35, January 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Naisu try but no. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 21:59, January 24, 2014 (UTC)
   
Wood Release Sage Mode/Hashirama's Sage Mode? For the 1000th time, there's only ONE Sage Mode. Why are animal/special labels even needed? It can be sorted into fewer sections.
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On topic, Ulti's/Skitt's version looks very good, one more time should it be compared and checked and unless someone will come to disagree, used asap.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:57, January 24, 2014 (UTC)
The article makes it sound and appear like each is a different technique. I'm really not happy with the way it is, as you might have noticed by now (viz above convos)
 
I will take care of this myself if you don't mind, it almost has fanon content.
 
The article contains made-up terms and speculation--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:04, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
:As far that can be gathered, each form ''is'' different. The First didn't gain any animal traits (frog eyes of Toad, ''anything'' of Snake). The article (shouldn't) make it sound like different techniques, but they are at least different styles, hence why they are in one article instead of two or three.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:31, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
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:The only thing I would want to add is that training under a certain animal leads to a different style. I don't like how Skitt's version reads as if Kabuto just became a snake Sage for no reason at all. In fact I don't think it even mention the Ryuchi Caves at all.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 23:02, January 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::As much information should be preserved, just without bias, speculation and vagueness. In the advantages part, it should be added that the user may learn senjutsu techniques unique to his/her animal species, like frog kata from toads, light and stone no jutsu from snakes and so on.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:07, January 24, 2014 (UTC)
   
The problem I see, is that the labels are user-made, wood sage mode sounds... weird at least. From what we were told Sage Mode is (state a user enters after successfully combining natural energy with the other two that make up chakra and balancing it equally) the animal-like-traits that differ between users don't necessarily mean a variant. As canonical as it gets, Jiraiya got teleported in the anime to [[Mount Myōboku]] because he had "an affinity for toads" (whatever that means, perhaps his personality being reminiscent of a toad) so figure the physical changes have to do with their "affinities" rather than being a variant?
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@BeyondRed Huh? Again, Muki Tensei is just senjutsu, and Frog Kata just a fighting-style. Saying there's no evidence other Sages can't use them is absurd given the series explanations on what ninjustus and chakra manipulation is. If you have the necessary skills to us e a technique, barring any genetic requirement, the technique can be used. Muki Tensei is just senjutsu, ergo other Sages can use it if they knew how, given what we know about chakra manipulation; Frog Kata is useable by any true Sage according to Fukasaku (right after Naruto first entered a completed SM), provided they've learned how.
At least the advantages and disadvantages sections should be merged--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:41, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
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*As for why Kabuto changes, that's a little speculatory. My version of the article does note that particular oddity about Kabuto without speculating as to the reason. If we absolutely have to, the most canonical thing would be to go to what Fukasaku said about Sage Mode boosting one's natural abilities. He noted that both Sage Mode and Kurama's chakra boosted Naruto's healing rate to absurd levels. This could account for why Kabuto progresses. He was already a snake, and SM's boosting shows true what Fuksaku said about SM, by making him a 'dragon'. The other relevant problem is Kabuto's DNA tomfoolery, so I doubt even Fukasaku would be exactly sure why. And Kabuto was already a snake, so asking why SM made him a snake is nonsensical. :p
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But again, that's more speculatory than I'm comfortable putting in the article as definite.[[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 03:42, January 25, 2014 (UTC)
   
:Wood Sage Mode sounds just as outlandish as anything else this manga creates, but we aren't calling it that yet. The First's sage mode is different as it has now physical changes that resemble the other two but is mentioned for it. Anyway using the word "affinities" is still basically saying that their Sage Mode falls under different types, except you are using a fancier word.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:49, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
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Bump--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:34, January 30, 2014 (UTC)
::Even so...from what was gathered so far, all sage modes give a equally broad range of certain abilities...enhanced physical abilities, superior ninjutsu skills, access to senjutsu techniques and access to certain animal traits. Hashirama aside, i believe the distinction between snake and toad sage modes should be erased, since both give apparently equal benefits. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 13:57, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
I wouldn't say, just to step back a relevant topic or two, Hashirama didn't have any animalistic traits. It could be that we don't know what animal it is. For all we know, it could be the Slug version (which follows the pattern of Frog (Gama) and Snake (Manda)). But that being said, even if not the slug, we still do not know what animal his markings could represent, if they do at all. At this point, we know the only other known sage modes are animals and the pattern suggests it is an animal thing, specifically (at least plot-wise) the summons. And of course "Wood Sage Mode" could be exactly what it is, but we're left with more questions with that as to how and why, and who taught him, versus an animal that can teach him (and what animal). And as for erasing things, I think that is overzealous and foolish going that far into oversimplification simply because of a bias. They are both sage modes, but they are not the same sage mode. If I remember correctly, there is a fallacy that follows that pattern. --[[Special:Contributions/98.101.165.89|98.101.165.89]] ([[User talk:98.101.165.89|talk]]) 14:04, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
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:Already said my peace. Skitts version is fine, I would just suggest adding different areas appear to form different styles.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:36, January 30, 2014 (UTC)
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::Action > words :P--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:20, February 10, 2014 (UTC)
   
In my opinion, the natural energy transforms them according to what affinity they have. But that doesn't mean each of them differ, why should we list that it gives speed, strength, durability, etc. to every user while it's enough to mention it once for example? If we are listing it like that, then Hashirama's should be nicknamed "Third Eye Sage Mode" or "Buddha Sage Mode" 0_o See? this is why it should be merged and differences noted with pictures alone.
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Just wanting to say those who revised this page did a excellent job. That is all :) --[[User:Questionaredude|Questionaredude]] ([[User talk:Questionaredude|talk]]) 19:59, February 22, 2014 (UTC)
About Hashirama, why does it have to be an animal that taught him it? Perhaps he figured how to harvest natural energy by himself, that would explain the third eye and buddha--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:07, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
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: Surprised no one mentioned, ''at all'' in this discussion that the reason why each Sage Mode should be separate is because each seem to enhance the user's physical abilities differently. Toad Sage Mode gives Naruto, Minato, and Jiraiya enhanced durability, speed, and strength from the feats they've shown. Snake Sage Mode enhances maneuverability, speed and agility, while keeping durability and strength the same as shown in Kabuto. And Hashirama's Sage Mode grants increased endurance and enhances his regeneration, as shown through Madara. All have shown different physical aspects that are actually improved.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 03:42, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
:Your ''opinion'' natural energy changes them by affinity. What we have ''seen'' is that if a Toad teaches you their method of Sage Mode, you run the risk of turning into a giant frog, as did the Preta Path did when it absorbed Naruto's senjutsu chakra.
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: Because that is your opinion and has no place in this article. When someone mentions that Toad/Hashirama/Snake Sage Mode has any variations between the augmentation they offer, then we'll add it, but we don't just add what we come up with off the top of our head to articles. That's called speculation. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 03:59, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
:We don't know what method Hashirama learned Sage Mode. He could be a Wood Sage, he could be a Slug Sage, he could be a Hashirama Sage. That's why it's mentioned that why it's just mentioned that he didn't fit the others.
 
:But I personally grow weary of this discussion, as it is the ''exact'' same discussion that is directly over this one. Do what you want I'll edit it the way I feel afterwards if that will make this battle of semantics end. But know this, I ''will'' make edits afterwards.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:17, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
Thanks and I agree, no worries as I don't plan on adding or removing anything (with an exception of something being mentioned more than once), only merging, cutting/pasting so it flows better.
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:: I think you need to look up what speculation actually is. Kishimoto has been distinct on the physical enhancements Sage Mode gave those from the different disciplines. Do you see Kabuto ''tossing boss summons around?'' Especially when he failed to send Itachi fly back with a strike? Or Hashirama/Madara doing the same thing? And the durability varies wildly: only Madara's [[Chakra Disruption Blades]] have pierced Toad Sage Mode skin, while both Hashirama's and Kabuto's have been pierced by a normal blade. Seriously, feats show it. I've even ''added'' them in the past. Not everything needs to be spelled out, this is a logical conclusion.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 04:30, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
EDIT: but you are right about Pain, he started turning frog as well, hopefully it will be explained in a databook.
 
About Hashirama, I removed the headline because the section was empty, feel free to make it for him--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:25, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
@Elv -- Even so, the modes are different and while there are some base similarities, each mode that we know of (Toad and Snake) have more than quit a few differences in what it gives the user compared to the other. It's why I said they're both sage modes, but they're not the same sage mode. Otherwise, they wouldn't even have the animalistic distinction. Or, well, that last parti s my opinion, at least. But regardless, merging would harm them more than help because there's still bits of information that would have to be separated which simply cannot be merged. Not to mention there's no cause for assuming they're the same sage mode. As for Hashirama's -- it could very well be that. But, personally, I don't think we can say either way till we are given the information. Yet going on what we do know about other sage modes...
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That's just your assumption. By the same logic (since Naruto could lift and throw a giant boulder) he could have just thrown Pain away from Konoha, sending him on a tour around the world, yet he didn't.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:24, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
@Ultimate -- I think, and it is my opinion, it can all be best summed up with a quote from you, "The article (shouldn't) make it sound like different techniques, but they are at least different styles, hence why they are in one article instead of two or three" --[[Special:Contributions/98.101.165.89|98.101.165.89]] ([[User talk:98.101.165.89|talk]]) 14:26, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
 
:@Elveonora: We'll see.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:28, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
Well, we shouldn't assume that each variant gives different attributes as absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If so, then there's nothing to mention in "Hashirama's Sage Mode" because all he did was summon a giant statue, that's no proof of strength, speed, durability etc. and if we do, then we should also list equal feats for Naruto and Kabuto for example, and with that reason in mind, it has to be mentioned just once for all of them. Since a headline with a picture and one line for Hashirama isn't enough, that's why I'm for "advantages" section when all of them are listed with: "Sage Mode among user grants the following enhancements to attributes that might vary slightly"
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== Slug Sage Mode ==
I kinda imagine it like the Susanoo articles with pictures at the bottom.
 
I will try to cook something and if yay then yay and if nay then nay--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:42, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
Well it's not an assumption as Kabuto has listed things that the Snake Mode gave that differs from Toad, IIRC. It is also why I say we shouldn't do anything with Hashi till we know exactly what kind of Sage mode it is. But that sounds fine, we can always edit and fix things to make it better. --[[Special:Contributions/98.101.165.89|98.101.165.89]] ([[User talk:98.101.165.89|talk]]) 15:10, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
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Due to the fact that Sage Mode can be learned from the Toad Sages at Mount Myoboku, from the Snake Sage at the Ryuchi Cave, and we have learned that the slug Katsuyu comes from the Shikkotsu Forest. A place stated to be equally famous to Mount Myoboku and the Ryuchi Cave. It is heavily implied that there are slug sages at the Shikkotsu Forest where one can learn Sage Mode from them. Hashirama Senju, is capable of using a third unknown Sage Mode. Considering his granddaughter, Tsunade, can summon slugs and is called the Slug Princess it is likely that his Sage Mode is the Sage Mode learned from the slugs. Also due to the fact that slugs appear to be aligned with healing and Madara Uchiha stated that he had obtained Hashirama's regenerative abilities (after obtaining his Sage Mode) would this not further imply that he had learned his Sage Mode from the slugs? Also due to the whole toad, snake, and slug symbolism it would make sense. I know it isn't a fact so it cannot be stated. But I think it has enough evidence to be added into the trivia section perhaps? Thoughts anyone? [[User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4]] ([[User talk:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|talk]]) 03:46, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
Any examples?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:20, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
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: For all we know, Hashirama didn't even learn Sage Mode from an animal. We don't know what he summons ''if'' he even summons an animal to begin with. There is no evidence. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 04:00, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
:I seriously don't see a reason for multiple sage modes either. Other than appearance, no one has shown abilities that are different from each other. Also, animal traits only appear on imperfect sages. Otherwise its just pigmentation and the eyes of the animal. (Hashirama's eyes did change. I don't see why people think he doesn't have an animal.) People say that Kabuto said he had different abilities than toad sage mode. Like what? Perceptive abilities? Same thing as Naruto's chakra sensing ability. He totally sensed Sasuke's arrow coming after him. And Sasuke and Itachi when he was blind. Snake eyelid's? Jiraiya proved that one can gain traits of one's animal by unbalancing the natural energy. There's nothing majorly different from any of the sage modes. The general abilities of each should be listed in one section, instead of duplicated like it is. [[User:MangekyoSasuke|MangekyoSasuke]] ([[User talk:MangekyoSasuke|talk]]) 17:34, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
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The only known ways so far is via an animal. So where else could he learn it? --[[User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4]] ([[User talk:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|talk]]) 04:25, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
"applauds" also Kabuto's messed up jaw and snake eyes aren't sage mode stuff, he had these from Oro's DNA--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:59, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
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It was stated there was 3 special places that taught senjutsu i believe, the bone forest place, mt. miyoboku and ryuchi cave and orochimaru said the slugs come from bone forest place or whatever. so yes it is VERY likely and possible that that is where Hashi learned it, but it can only be added when confirmed. [[User:ItachiWasAHero|ItachiWasAHero]] ([[User talk:ItachiWasAHero|talk]]) 04:42, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
:Orochimaru himself never displayed any of those. Only thing mouth related I recall Orochimaru doing was puking himself anew and healed. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:20, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
 
::I believe that everyone by now knows that there is only one Sage Mode taught/learnt differently by several other animals/people. With that in mind, this is how the wikia has chosen to represent the information so that all of it is not one giant section. I also do not think we should rush to conclude where Hashirama learned Sage Mode, nor do I believe that his Sage Mode is wood related. They are nothing more than headings based on necessity.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 23:27, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
:::I'm going to have to side with Elveonora on this one. The current structure/sectioning of this article is just.... ew, and it seems to make assumptions it shouldn't, case and point: "Senju Sage Mode". O_o For one, ALL that Sage Mode is, is balancing [[Natural energy]] with the ninja's Spiritual and Physical energy. That's it. Natural energy doesn't come in different flavours. Kabuto's different appearance could easily be explained by the fact that he took on the DNA of many individuals, most notably Orochimaru, hence the appearance. Also, we don't actually know if Hashirama mastered Sage Mode, though I suppose that's a ''somewhat'' reasonable assumption, though if it were up to me we'd hold off on that. Also, Hashi's Senjustu section (in his article) has fluff. *goes to fix* [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 13:57, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
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: No, it said that the "Ryūichi Cave is a place of equal fame to Myōbokuzan and the Shikkotsu Forest". ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 04:44, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
::::Again, it is established that there is one Sage Mode that is used differently based on how people learn it. These titles are nothing more than a means to differentiate the abilities that persons learn and display. Maybe if the article were to actually mention this, it would be better? You could not expect someone that learned from frog to be using White Rage Technique or a Snake to use Frog Kata, hence everything is not lumped together, but all are in their respective sections. While I am not too certain about the title "Senju Sage Mode" --[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:56, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
Even with your edits Cerez, the main problem still stays. For example, Frog Kata isn't a part of Sage Mode, it's a senjutsu technique taught by toads. Then there's this perception/sensory thing, viz translation says sensory in Kabuto's case as well, confirmed by Seelentau.
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That that's the name, but he is right Senjutsu is only known to have been taught or stolen like in madara's case. It was also hinted at one point that you did not need a contract to find these places or learn senjutsu there. [[User:ItachiWasAHero|ItachiWasAHero]] ([[User talk:ItachiWasAHero|talk]]) 04:49, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
The jaw part, Orochimaru has it as well, just look at his cheeks and the brille part, what does it have to do with Sage Mode? Figure that a man with snake dna has snake eyes even without it? The article is still structured in a way that states that each "animal version" or what **** gives different powers. All Sage Mode users have the same enhancements, be it them dog, cat, boar or whatever animal.
 
Only unique techniques like Frog Kata or long tongue, turn rock alive or annoying genjutsu sound differ--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:10, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
 
:I can't agree with that. I've never seen Orochimaru open his mouth like that nor use brille to cover his eyes. People at times seem to forget that Orochimaru is a human being, not a snake. Yes he has a snake form which his body has been "reduced" to but for all intents an purposes, he is a human that uses snake-motif techniques. This is why he was not revived as a snake but with a human body. Kabuto's transformation could easily be akin to Jiraiya purposefully growing frog legs/arms to use in his battle against Pain. There is a general section in the article which mentions what Sage Mode grants a user, though we don't even know that to be true except for the bolstering of techniques. In my opinion, Sage Mode does grant the same basic abilities which is mentioned in the article, but we can't just ignore the person/mode specific abilities. How else would we be able to account for them? --[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 18:20, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
I don't share your sentiments, he turned his body into a giant white snake, even tho he can change back at will, his human form is only a leftover of his humanity, for what I would say, he has more snake genes than human genes. Kabuto grew scales when he injected himself, not dark hair. And just because we haven't seen Oro doing creepy jaw thing and protect eyes against visual genjutsu thingy doesn't mean he can't.
 
He can extend any part of his body with [[Soft Physique Modification]]. About Kabuto, even if he changed himself further into a snake purposely, it's not a part of Sage Mode, just like Jiraiya's toad features aren't, turning animal happens when the natural energy isn't completely balanced. About specific abilities, there's link to list of senjutsu techniques down there, it can be expanded with them being actually listed--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:05, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
:Also, Kabuto opened his jaws that wide when he entered slitering snake mode. And again when he swallowed Yamato. [[User:MangekyoSasuke|MangekyoSasuke]] ([[User talk:MangekyoSasuke|talk]]) 20:15, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
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Yes, that's true. But the fact that toads come from Mount Myoboku and there is toad sages there, snakes come from the Ryuchi Cave and there is a snake sage there, and we have learned that there is a Shikkotsu Forest and that the slug Katsuyu comes from there. Especially since Hashirama has a third unknown Sage Mode and so far the previous two sage modes have been Toad and Snake, in order to keep the toad, snake, and slug symbolism it would make since for Hashirama to have a "Slug Sage Mode". But it's true it isn't a fact or officially confirmed. Which is why I suggested adding it to trivia. There is more evidence and similar abilities that hint at it being Slug Sage Mode. So that's why I believe it should be listed in the trivia section. --[[User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4]] ([[User talk:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|talk]]) 04:55, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
Pretty much, there's no exclusive things in between them as they all are one and the same. That's like saying shadow clone performed by toad differs from one done by a human--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 20:21, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
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: My point is, until we have definite proof, we're steering away from speculation. I actually think Hashirama's Sage Mode is related to the slugs myself, but, professionally, that just doesn't belong in an article. Just because Tsunade is his granddaughter doesn't mean he shares her summons, that he has a contract with a slug (the reference you mention, Itachi, is anime-only, and therefore we must throw that out with regards to manga information. You need a contract to summon), or that he learned Sage Mode where the slugs reside. And you're missing another point. The three locations mentioned (for snakes, toads, and slugs) are only noted to be famous. For all we know, there are other places to learn senjutsu. There are just too many unknowns to say for sure. I suggest just letting it go until we get a new databook or clarification in a later chapter. Because, by your logic, we'd have to list Tsunade as a Sage because Orochimaru and Jiraiya learned Senjutsu, so therefore she must've learned it too. See where that kind of loose ends logic leads? Not very productive. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 05:02, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
The problem with the current version is that it implies Kabuto can't do certain things that Naruto and Jiraiya could, rather than leaving it ambiguous. Kabuto didn't actually show whether he can sense chakra like Naruto, for example, but the article's current layout would imply to a reader that he can't. As for unique traits used by Kabuto, there was just White Rage and Muki Tensei, which were specific examples of senjutsu, and possibly his snake brille, but we can't say for sure whether it was from Sage Mode or Orochimaru's white snake DNA. Kabuto was even more snake-like than Orochimaru after all, since he developed scales rather than just pale skin.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 22:03, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
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Alright, I guess you're right. It would be better to wait a little longer until another source of info is released that confirms what Sage Mode Hashirama is using. I get your point. I'll just go ahead and leave this topic alone until further confirmation. --[[User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4]] ([[User talk:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|talk]]) 05:07, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
He did, he dodged Sasuke's arrow without looking and commented on sensory ability.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:02, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
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: This is just my opinion but, I don't think it's too far-fetched to assume that there could be a "Slug Sage Mode".
  +
: First, to address a topic discussed above, while I agree that there is technically only one Sage Mode, I believe the differences between the modes we see come from the specific techniques used to achieve them. The techniques taught at Mount Myoboku by the toads result in the toad-like traits exhibited by Jiraya and Naruto (even if it's just his eyes) and, while Kabuto already had snake-like traits and may also be a special case due to his self-experimentation, it seems to me that his sage mode (resulting from techniques taught at Ryuchi Cave) only increased said snake-like traits (even if it's just some horns on his face).
  +
: If we look at the facts, we know that Shikkotsu Forest is compared to both Mount Myoboku and Ryuchi Cave, and that the three Sannin's summons each come from those locations. Jiraya is known to be a Sage, while Orochimaru is, at the very least, capable of manipulating Sage Chakra (even if his host bodies won't allow him to enter Sage Mode), and is probably also a Sage. While we don't know what technique Hashirama uses to enter Sage Mode, or what summon (if any) he utilizes, Tsunade is his descendant, is one of the three Legendary Ninja, and summons Katsuya. With as many parallels this series seems to implement, it seems reasonable (while still speculative) that Hashirama could have learned the techniques to enter Sage Mode from the slugs at Shikkotsu Forest.
  +
: This last bit is highly speculative but, Tsunade's Strength of a Hundred Seal seems very similar to a Curse Mark, or even the Sage Mode markings. I don't believe this to actually be a Sage Art/Technique, but could be modeled after one (sort of like how the Rasengan is modeled after a Tailed Beast Ball). It was stated by Madara that this technique is similar to Hashirama's style of medical ninjutsu, and it is noted that Katsuya is somehow "directly linked to and supported by the seal."
  +
: What I take from all of this information is that Hashirama may indeed have been trained in Sage Arts by the slugs of Shikkotsu Forest, which helped him to form his advanced medical ninjutsu techniques. These (non-Sage) techniques would have been passed down to Tsunade who formed the Seal and Creation Rebirth techniques. Obviously, none of this is even hinted at in the series but, being that there are so many gaps in information, this is what I like to fill them with. It just makes sense to me. Hopefully we'll get some sort of official explanation soon.--[[User:Tronyc714|Tronyc714]] ([[User talk:Tronyc714|talk]]) 11:15, June 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
:I took that to be the same as Naruto's enhanced perceptiveness allowing him to dodge the Third Raikage's attack in Sage Mode, but both might be applications of the general sensory ability.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 00:01, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
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== Perfect Sage Mode ==
   
::All I'm going to say at this point is, I will not have information lost, because it's stupid to lose information for no reason.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 00:13, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
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When the user achieves no animalistic traits, they've achieved Perfect Sage Mode. Explicitly said so in the manga since the balance is perfect.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 19:41, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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:Was the term "perfect" ever used? Also there always are "animalistic" (lol?) traits, them being the eyes and so--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:54, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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:: Yes, Fukasaku explicitly called the state where no animal traits (like what Jiraiya got) was perfect, with only the eyes and the pigmentation around them being the only change. Check chapter 418.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 19:58, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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:::No, he doesn't. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 20:13, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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:: Then what was the differentiation between Naruto's state and Jiraiya's?--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 20:34, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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::The unbalanced energies. But I meant Fukasaku and his words. He didn't use "perfect" or anything alike. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 20:36, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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Fukasaku just said "The pigmentation around his (Naruto's) eyes is the proof of a true Sage, it means he could perfectly balance the three energies. From this point, he truly surpassed Jiraiya!", nothing about a ''Perfect'' Sage Mode.--[[User:JOA20|JOA20]] ([[User talk:JOA20|talk]]) 20:47, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Then just replace "Perfect Sage Mode" with "True Sage Mode". Is that what is being suggested, a denomination for a Sage Mode with perfectly balanced energies? [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:08, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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::::He doesn't say "true", either... • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 08:52, June 20, 2014 (UTC)
   
To this discussion, i'm forced to agree that there is only one Sage Mode. As far as i see it all users of it have displayed equal benefits all around. Let's see:
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== Turning to stone ==
* Enhanced physical and perceptive abilities - Check
 
* Increased potency of all ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu - Check
 
* Gained sensory capabilities - Check
 
* Partial animal shape-shifting abilities - Check
 
   
As for the dissadvantages we already known those, since it's universal...to me the only difference lies in which sage trains you, but the general abilities all appear to be the same...[[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 21:44, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
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In the disadvantage section it says ''If the user draws in too much natural energy, they run the risk of transforming into a toad, and then into stone''. We only know that this applies to those who are Toad Sages right? Now that we also got Snake Sages. --[[User:Kasan94|<font color="#3B0B0B">'''Kasan94'''</font>]] [[File:Nara Symbol.svg|20px]] <sub>[[User_talk:Kasan94|''Talkpage'']]</sub> 21:52, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
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:People went full ham when we tried to draw a full separation between Toad Sages and Snake Sages. If you want to add that the "turn to a stone toad" as a risk only for those training under toads, you are welcome to find to put it into the article.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 11:13, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
Of course there's only one Sennin Mode. Why would there be more? The Sennin Mode is the state of having natural energy in your body, you don't even need to have control over it (like Jiraiya). But I still think we should differentiate the different teachers of the Sennin Mode and how the user looks different depending on who trained him. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau ]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|]]</sup> 21:51, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
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:: Thanks! --[[User:Kasan94|<font color="#3B0B0B">'''Kasan94'''</font>]] [[File:Nara Symbol.svg|20px]] <sub>[[User_talk:Kasan94|''Talkpage'']]</sub> 11:38, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
:But the whole problem of this discussion is that...by the way the article is constructed...outright states, that each Sage Mode (Toad, Snake, Slug?) is it own, with different gains and losses, while the three known examples (Jiraiya, Naruto, Kabuto) have displayed near identical benefits. The only actual difference seems to rely on the influence of the animal sage that trains the user, but in practical, combat terms it maybe all the same. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 22:01, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
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:::Why would only "toad sages" turn into stone? Natural energy is natural energy--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:03, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Because the sentence reads "blah blah blah transforming into a toad, blah blah stone"?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 12:05, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
Well, who is to say they are even actually the same? All can be sage modes, but not be the same thing, as I mentioned earlier. We have plenty of cases of "All A are B but not all B are A", etc. It's one of the principles of logic, and of course has a fallacy to go along with it. It also doesn't make sense that if all one has to do is enter the singular and nonspecific sage mode is acquire and balance natural energy where there is even a difference between the transformation between the types of Sage Modes we know of. What causes Naruto and Jiraiya to change into their respective sage mode; what of Kabuto? The way they may acquire it is the same, in theory. But is it? All they're doing is gathering and balancing natural energy, so, reiterating -- why the change in their physiology of any form, whether markings or other? Maybe it's plot-no-jutsu but then if so, why are we coming to this point in the discussion of whether to merge or not? That in and of itself is speculation. What tells us that the Sage Mode is only one thing for each person. And what logic can you use to support that, while also explaining the differences in the physiology of the users? --[[Special:Contributions/98.101.165.89|98.101.165.89]] ([[User talk:98.101.165.89|talk]]) 23:57, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Read above the affinity thing, that is a possible explanation. Why they do turn animal is completely irrelevant tho, in terms of what this technique does, it should be logically even among all. There's only one kind of natural energy, A bit of speculation, but look at Jugo and the Ten-Tails, the former's body can shapeshift into multiple forms, possibly anything he wishes and his mentality is unstable. Ten-Tails is a physical manifestation of natural energy, it appears to be sentient only on a primitive level at best and it transforms as well, suggesting it's dependent on thoughts, feelings, personality etc. Eyes are the mirror of the soul after all ;D
 
Curse Mark users for example, Sasuke personified himself with a hawk and his form had wings and the marking on his nose could be a beak, he also managed to replace his lost wing with snakes during his fight against Deidara--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 00:48, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
It doesn't explain it, however, as there are places and people (Sages/animals) that teach it. And everything we know up until now, excluding Hashirama (which I feel, speculatory, is Slug), is that you learn it at a special place from special animal sages, and if we postulate that the 3rd place Kabuto mentioned is for the Slug sage, it only makes the case that much stronger. Why would an affinity matter? Why would the animal teachers matter, if its all the same thing? And turning into an animal isn't irrelevant, either, we were first introduced to "You turn into a Frog statue if you fail.", to what would be highly likely: "You ''may'' turn into a Snake (or dragon) statue if you fail." But it, like I stated above, comes down to what? Kabuto could've potentially learned from the frogs as much as Naruto could the White Snake Sage. But you are right in that "in terms of what this technique does" is create something, but that comes from senjutsu and not Sage Mode, I would postulate. Though I don't know how to clarify that as of this moment. Presently, I just do not see enough, or any, evidence to suggest they are one and the same, while also providing evidence to provide an example of why there are differences.
 
 
Edit: I also want to reiterate something someone mentioned above about how the... Preva path? (Tired atm) turned into a frog statue. But, excluding plot-no-jutsu, why would that happen?--[[Special:Contributions/98.101.165.89|98.101.165.89]] ([[User talk:98.101.165.89|talk]]) 01:33, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
I for one, don't think its some sort of affinity. I think sages learn how to absorb natural energy from the specific animal they're learning it from. Natural energy comes from everything, so its logical to think that there are different types of it. It would not only explain why preta turned into a toad, but also why Jugo can change his body into multiple forms, and the cursed seals' resemblance to multiple animals. My logic behind it is that the only differences between sage modes are the ability to transform parts of the body into the animal learned from when the natural energy is unbalanced, as proven in Jiraiya's, and possibly Kabuto's case. Because other than that, they have yet to show any difference from each other. And the way I see it, that info can easily be placed separately while the shared abilities are merged into one section. [[User:MangekyoSasuke|MangekyoSasuke]] ([[User talk:MangekyoSasuke|talk]]) 07:29, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
That would make sense, in case if only Naruto hadn't turned toad when absorbing it outside of [[Mount Myōboku]] it does happen everywhere even in places where no toads are nearby. Also assuming there are multiple forms of natural energy isn't viable since we weren't told as such, quite the opposite, it's in the earth, atmosphere, all around. When Jugo changed his arm during the Oro revival scene, he called it his original Sage Transformation, meaning that's what it looks like when he is in control, but when he goes berserk, the forms are random. That's why I think natural energy changes them accordingly to their mental state. Kabuto turned "dragon" not because he surpassed Orochimaru, but because he only thought he did, thinking himself superior.
 
I don't think it matters who taught it whom, but if you associate with them.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:58, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:And everything you just mentioned is speculation and what you ''believe'' happened when compared to what we actually ''know''. Naruto learned Sage Mode from toads, hence toad if you fail, toad if you absorb senjutsu chakra and can't control it, toad like if can't balance it correctly. Kabuto learned Sage Mode from snakes, thus, snake.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 15:46, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:: I'm with Ultimate here. This entire argument is ridiculous. We have the three different variations of [[Susanoo]], based on user, on its page, despite the fact that it is the same technique. All of the differences of each unique Susanoo is already listed on the character's page itself. The same should happen here. The different variations of Sage Mode should be mentioned. If anything, it should be done like Susanno was (i.e., "Naruto Uzumaki's Version", "Jiraiya's Version", "Kabuto Yakushi's Version", and "Hashirama Senju's Version") listing the things specific to each Sage Mode. Regardless of whether or not Sage Mode is the same across the board (and clearly it is not), each user has used it very differently from each other, thus far, and therefore, I think it would be a loss of information to take the sections out. And Elve, enough speculation. Use the cold-hard facts, as in what we have physically seen and heard from the anime/manga as facts, not "what-ifs". ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 16:27, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Susanoo is a different case, it's a physical manifestation of a MS user's chakra, of course it will differ between users. I agree with the "x user version" thing, would be better, a nice compromise if it be--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:52, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
::@ Ultimate -- Correct. We know the process of absorbing natural energy is the same for all. We are not really told how Sage Mode is activated, but it is implied that it is simply by absorbing natural energy in large amounts; Naruto simply meditates and it occurs. So there's no differentiating factor for the different sage modes, and yet there are differences between them. While there may be similarities in the advantages it provides, that is due to the body flowing and being in harmony with natural energy -- a side product, if you will, instead of Sage Mode itself . ''Note: Sounds like speculation, could be speculation but I think based on Juugo and the other things we know about natural energy and sages it isn't speculation.'' But like I pointed out about Juugo and his clan, they can transform -- Juugo transforming into different things when he wants -- and their bodies and more are boosted with natural energy. The end product is "Sage Transformation", a lot like Sage Mode. The latter, however, utilizing senjutsu chakra at the end.
 
 
:: @ Elv -- As for Kabuto being a Dragon versus a snake, I am going to assume (speculation)it is because the idea that dragons are above snakes in a lot of Asian cultures, sometimes being the same animal but the dragon being more heavenly or godly (more powerful/advanced, in other words). Or, at least, that is what I understood when I first read the chapter, otherwise I do not think it would've even been mentioned by Kish. Kabuto may not even be perfect, based on his anatomy. Yes, some of it is due to the experiments and other things, but it also reflects the imperfect changes we've seen in Jiraiya.
 
 
::At any rate, Tl;DR version: There's no evidence to suggest Sage Mode is only singular thing, with vast physical differences between how the senjutsu reacts within the users and others (Preta Path changing). Rather, it is senjutsu that provides the similar bonuses, corroborated by Juugo and dialogue from others. I postulate for now there are 3 known, different, Sage Modes as all the evidence points to that. That being said (and yes, it is turning out to be long again...) the page could reflect that in a way that combines the ability bonuses, but still makes sure to differentiate between the different modes.
 
 
Edit: ''Note: @Ten Tailed, I typed all of this before I saw yours''--[[Special:Contributions/98.101.165.89|98.101.165.89]] ([[User talk:98.101.165.89|talk]]) 16:58, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
@98xxxsomething, bingo, that's exactly what the topic was about before it has gone offtopic thanks to me included (just wanted to throw around some theories and opinions) it's pointless to have listed "increased strength, speed, stamina, durability etc." for every of them since it's even, that's basically having the same thing there multiple times. Also naming of each "variant" should be changed from animal to user's name as Fox suggested and I would agree with. That way, it's a neutral approach that doesn't necessarily speculate that each of them differs nor that they don't, meaning that the differences vary and depend on it's user rather than it being a different "version" of Sage Mode each time--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:07, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
That does seem like an appropriate compromise...listing the general benefits under one banner, while showcasing each individual mode showed by it's user, rather than repeating them over and over. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 17:21, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
 
Here's something some of you are forgetting: Sage Mode improves the user's natural abilities. For example, Fukusaku thought to himself that Naruto's healing rate had been vastly improved because of both Kurama and Natural energy. Kabuto becoming a 'Dragon' was, as we know, because of the whole dragons being (basically) super snakes, referring to him surpassing Orochimaru. Again, Sage Mode is just balancing Nature's energy with the energies within the medium, imrpoving their own '''innate''' abilities. Kabuto developed NO new snake-related abilities as a result of Sage Mode. The jaw thing was done sans-Sage Mode to swallow up Yamato on the Island Turtle. He gained the sensor-type chakra detection, as per dodging Susanoo's arrow. Everthing I recall Kabuto doing non-jutsu-wise was simply improved snake-esque abilities. Sage Mode appears to be more related to Toads anyways, considering failing to maintain adequate control over the energy results in becoming a petrified toad. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 18:09, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
 
:If that were true, neither the Ryuchi Cave, nor the White Snake Sage would exist...from where it stands the animal traits a Sage Mode user gains are dependant on which animal sage trains them, but that's about it. The benefits they gain have so far been mostly the same. As for the sage techniques themselves, it's obvious each sage has learned/developed their own techniques from sage mode. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 18:23, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
 
::But that's just it, Kabuto was ''already'' snake-y prior to Sage Mode, so I don't really see what snake traits he acquired that he didn't already have, from scales to belly tail (lool). All that happened was he got.... horny. :) [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 18:35, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::Lol, funny...The snake brille, the way he cracked open his jaw to catch sasuke...when he did that to Yamato, he had to change to a completely new form...when Jiraiya faced Nagato, he changed the shape of his hands and feet into toad ones for increased mobility...he had snake anatomy before, but that doesn't mean he couldn't gain further access to it through Sage mode. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 18:57, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::I think we're talking past each other. :) I'm agreeing with that last part you said. Sage Mode enhances the user's innate abilities as well (Fukusaku said it increased Naruto's healing rate, for ex.), and Kabuto already basically was a snake, so no surprise in that department. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 19:19, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Yeah, I feel like the topic is over, half of it is garbage and the relevant stuff has been concluded, I will try to cook it up later on (when I feel like it) accordingly to the proposal--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:26, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
The benefits are the same, but I want to make sure it's understood that it isn't sage mode in and of itself, but senjutsu that provides the bonuses to enhanced physiology, etc. As well as Toad Sage and Snake Sage are different Sage Modes in how they work, normal senjutsu bonuses aside (that Sage Mode doesnt exist by itself). While Kabuto may exhibit some more Orochimaru characteristics, his form differs from a normal person while in Snake Sage Mode. At some point Orochimaru may have altered himself to fit the Snake Sage persona, as well, if we go by why he wants a new body to use sage mode. The horns may be the sign of a True/perfect Snake Sage, going on what Kabuto says. And while it may be speculation, I do think we can agree that a Snake Sage wouldn't be able to perform any Toad Sage abilities, and vice versa. Kabuto also, during Hakugeki, is able to use his Snake Sage abilities (cornea; not including the modifications from Suigetsu and etc) to allow him to function while Sasuke and Itachi are rendered useless. There are many things to remember to distinguish and separate, and I just would not like them to be lost and for the page to reflect that there's only one actual mode when it's not the case --[[Special:Contributions/98.101.165.89|98.101.165.89]] ([[User talk:98.101.165.89|talk]]) 21:51, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Bruh, Just leave it the way it is, it's more understandable. For all I care, Naruto and Jiraiya learned Sage Mode from the toads and so therefore has the support (summoning) and trait-like from the toads and that Kabuto and maybe Oro learned Sage Mode from the Snakes and therefore has the support and also trait-like that of a Snake ..... {{unsigned|75.170.19.115}}
 
 
@'''98.101.165.89''' Erm, nuuu. For one, we've never seen a 'regular person in snake Sage Mode', so don't know where you got that from. So far, the only potentially valid variation brought up in support of a distinguished Sage Mode has really been Kabuto's cornea, and even that has been decently shown to be explainable given what else we know about Sage Mode enhancing the user's abilities. Everything else so far has been mere mention of different techniques, which is a non-issue considering there are innumerable ways to manipulate one's chakra to do different things, even within the same class/sub-class of techniques (ex: [[Wind Release: Rasengan]] & [[Wind Release: Rasenshuriken]]). So basically my suggestions are the following:
 
:Group everthing into 2 sections, "Imperfect Sage Mode", and "Sage Mode". The former's contents are obvious. The latter however should initially go over the know benefits of Sage Mode, increased jutsu strength and bodily prowess (speed, sensory perception, etc), Chakra-sensing, Amplified innate abilities, etc. I think a good compromise would be to indicate the somewhat uncertainty that some here have of there being possibly distinct SM flavours. But really, that slight uncertainty shouldn't be dictating the structure of the article, and reduce the large amount of redundancy currently in it. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 05:43, February 27, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
@Skitts -- Thankfully you misunderstood what I meant by normal/regular person. I meant just that -- a normal or regular person -- not a sage. And there are plenty of variations, moreso on the speculative side however, that are either outright stated or could be inferred. Though I do not wish to go back into redundant topics; and to ignore what has been established, the different modes, despite the fact there's no support for the concept or idea of one singular, global sage mode, nor is it even suggested in Naruto, seems foolhardy, IMHO. Until there's more information available regarding the validity of those claims (Sage Mode being just Sage Mode and there's absolutely no differences between the types (which logically doesn't even make sense given the fact they exist)), or any other ideas regarding it: I think the article should continue as it is with slight alterations to clean it up and make it more concise, less redundant; not to the extent of changing the meanings of things, however. --[[Special:Contributions/98.101.165.89|98.101.165.89]] ([[User talk:98.101.165.89|talk]]) 20:09, February 27, 2013 (UTC)
 
:But I've seen nothing inferring the existence of different kinds of Sage Mode. You don't assume a difference without a stated reason/heavily implied distinction in the series. Based on what both Fukasaku and Kabuto have said, Sage Mode = Balancing natural energy with your own to increase overall prowess, QED, nothing else. Therefore that's what it is. Technique sub-classes (i.e "White Rage") are a non-issue. If you and I are going to continue, let's do it via our Talk pages (it'd be nice if you registered ;-D) [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 20:26, February 27, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
::Off-topic - I used to be registered but I cannot remember the name I used, and cannot even find it within my emails. I could do it again, I suppose, after this (because I feel it needs to be public). On-topic: Yes, Sage Mode is balancing natural energy to form senjutsu within the body to activate Sage Mode. Sage Mode is more of a concept or theory, the way I try to describe it. Practically, there can be thousands of Sage Modes, but there's not one global Sage Mode which encompasses the others, sans animalistic difference. That is why it is important to distinguish that it is Toad Sage Mode, Snake Sage Mode, etc. Regardless if the process is the same, the results are different, for whatever reason. Toad Sages come out to be the same, Snake Sages are the same, etc. So until there's more information that supports a hypothesis that each sage mode is identical and irrelevant in relation to animals/physiological changes (which, again, is contradictory since there are varied differences regardless of techniques (though it still can apply in some cases), then it (the page) should reflect as it is now, with the alterations of removing the redundancy found within. --[[Special:Contributions/98.101.165.89|98.101.165.89]] ([[User talk:98.101.165.89|talk]]) 01:40, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:(My Last response unless someone different pipes up) Again, you're assuming a distinction ithout a stated difference in the series, Heck, it was never said by Kabuto that he had mastered 'Snake Sage Mode', simply that he mastered Sage Mode. Kabuto already had his snake traits prior to Sage Mode, so you can't claim it to account for the whole shebang there. And as I said earlier, failing to maintain control over Natural Energy itself results in a '''Toad''' transformation, nothing else, a la Jiraiya. Since no actual distinction between practicioners has even been implied (only different teachers) it shouldn't be implied in the article methinks. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 03:38, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
::It was heavily implied, if not outright stated, that Kabuto achieved perfection in regards to Snake Sage Mode, going so far as to talk about the journey, about how he became more than a snake, that he became a dragon, blah blah blah. He had snake traits, but that's irrelevant to the topic at hand, as, for instance: his horns were more than likely not a product of his experiments. It also helped to prove that he became a dragon, which, if we go by standard and general Asian lore (meaning collective, non-specific), dragons are above snakes, and the horns signify that -- so no speculation or assumption. Otherwise, Kish wouldn't had drawn horns on him, or even mentioned the bit about the dragon, etc. Again, we are not discussing his pre-existing condition, but rather that which changed during his sage mode event. You can say it earlier, but I would highly doubt a Snake Sage in training would turn into a frog if he fails to balance the energies inside his body. That simply wouldn't make sense with the snakes, nor with the plot regarding it. I am not sure at what point there is a discourse in the understanding of any of it. And as I said earlier, the process may be the same, but the result is different, otherwise they wouldn't be a difference to even show in the body/eyes/anywhere else, blah blah blah. It is cumbersome to reiterate the same things, and I mean no offense with that. --[[User:Taynio|Taynio]] ([[User talk:Taynio|talk]]) 05:52, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:If it was stated/heavily implied (it wasn't) post a reference please. But really, I'm doubtful you've read the above convos, because I think I've stated everytime how to account for Kabuto. For one, he never mentioned a different Sage Mode. The mention of the journey? Okay? He just said that he ventured to Ryuchi Cave to learn Senjutsu from the Snake Sage, that said nor implied anything about a different Mode. And again, horns are easily accounted for. For the like 4th time, Sage Mode increases your own innate abilities. Naruto's healing rate was even greater in SM (chapter 415, page 14). Kabuto was snake-y prior to SM, hence entering it caused him to transcend snake to 'dragon' (clearly a simple nod to Asian folklore). And again, Natural Energy is natural energy, it recognizes no divisions based on teacher. Fukasaku plainly said that failing to keep it under some amount of control (and/or ''not'' having a large chakra supply already) would result in becoming a Toad and possibly petrifying, which we've seen happen to the Asura Path. And visual differences would seem of little use here. Heck, Jiraiya's appearance was crazy and didn't really resemble Naruto's at all. Kabuto's appearance was chiefly as it was because of his DNA integration, mostly Orochimaru's. We have no clue what a non-DNA hoarder would look like if it is the case that there are different SMs. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 13:05, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
::I just see too many of the same errors to keep replying to over and over; it's no use to keep reiterating the same things just to have the same, and I'm sorry to say this. but invalid things coming back. Perhaps the biggest two issues being that anyone who practices your proposed sage mode turns into a frog, which makes utterly no sense. Secondly being the horn issue and the fact you keep missing the distinction and difference between pre-exisiting conditions with Kabuto and his condition post-sage mode, which you even throw up to his modifications, which make no logical or rational sense; and completely throwing out any and all in-sage-mode identifiers that one would have, such as Jiraiya, Hashirama, or Naruto. You're too caught up, as a lot of others, on his modifications and how much power they offer him, which is being overestimated relative to this topic. Though for a third, you fail to recollect that Jiraiya wasn't perfect, which was the cause for his toad like appearance (and to-note: that which identified him as a sage, DID match Naruto). It's just really not worth it at this point; and I have read ''every'' edit on this page, as I do every page I come across, that is how I learn and form my arguments, otherwise it would be an incoherent mess
 
 
::However, the good points: Yes, natural energy as senjutsu does great things for the body and techniques, this has been long established, but is irrelevant. And if it makes no difference, then why the visual differences, which you say hold no bearing? Why the different teachers? Etc. I could go gon and on with question that hasn't been answered by any.--[[Special:Contributions/98.101.165.89|98.101.165.89]] ([[User talk:98.101.165.89|talk]]) 14:36, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
What we know for sure is, that that pigmentation around eyes is a sign of a true Sage. The problem is, everything we know points to a single technique so does logic, yet they turn different animals for some reason, this is being justified as different Sage Modes while we can't conclude as such since it makes no sense. That's like saying if Ino were Kurama's Jinchuriky, her forms would resemble a boar--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:47, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:Off-topic: Hi Elv! I actually enjoy talking with you, lol. On-topic: I would concede that was true, that "What we know for sure is...". I could agree on that, despite everything, and that isn't to recant everything I've said but just as "if my life depended on it" lol. Regarding the second point, however, I while a single technique and process, the results are different, as you do point out and I agree, but logic in these circumstances is actually circumventing the former because if it is the technique, but the differences are so wildly varied, yet students of the same order (toad, snake, etc) exhibit similar, almost identical changes which are different from others, then logically they are not the same in relation to the results, but not the process (because all that is happening is they gather natural energy to form senjutsu to enter their sage mode). And that's the key here, that logic must always be applied to the entirety and what holds precedence over the other. I want to emphasize, however, I am not saying they are different techniques, as I think still people believe I am stating. The technique to enter the mode and the process in doing it is the same, but the concept or theory of sage mode versus the practicality (or application, if you prefer) of it is completely different. And that's where we don't know where it differs or why, yet the fact remains it does differ. But to end this off with something I've said before, which I think mirrors exactly the general idea people have, we should definitely remove the redundancy in the article, but not to the degree that each version loses its uniqueness, or to perpetuate irrelevant ideas about sage mode (by trying to combine them) until more information is available. -[[Special:Contributions/98.101.165.89|98.101.165.89]] ([[User talk:98.101.165.89|talk]]) 15:01, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:@98.101.165.89 You say you see errors in my reasoning, where? It was stated directly by Fukasaku (and demonstrated against Pain) that not controlling Nature's energy = becoming a Toad or worse. Kabuto mentioned nothing about it, hence no distinction is to be assumed. And I've not forgotten that Jiraiya had an imperfect SM. My point was was the fact that Jiraiya's facial appearance as a result of the mode wasn't fixed while in that state (the blood contract changed at least once, I do recall). If you have indeed read every post you wouldn't repeat what I've already gone over. Since Jiraiya failed to perfectly balance his Senjutsu chakra, he gained Toady attributes. Kabuto '''already''' had snake attributes, so SM was obviously not the origination of them like it was for Jiraiya. You're making false comparisons. Again, the horn thing is just a nod to the whole dragons being greater snakes in asian lore, as well as the fact of DNA integration. Also, we don't actually know if Hashirama mastered Sage Mode, it's just an assumption we're making (I'm willing to accept it). We don't actually know if they differ, which is the whole point. Kabuto is a rather special case considering his condition prior to the Mode, so your affirmative assumptions without the actual distinctions stated in the series are going too far at this point. So in doing what the wiki usually does, we shouldn't have the article making somewhat arbitrary divisions. Find a place where the divisions is made apparent, post a link for us to verify, otherwise I don't see any actual motive for this. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 18:06, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
::First off, about the "arbitrary divisions", that is the least speculative way to go about it. It is also the way of the wiki not to doctor up something based on a hunch without sufficient information, which is what you seemingly propose. I have been on this wiki, as many have, for many years. I am quite familiar with it. I just wish I remembered my name (or in the case it was deleted or something because my name is about 100% the same anywhere).
 
 
::I pointed out the errors. And I shouldn't have to post a link as I go to elaborate lengths to explain, and it isn't hard to even look for yourself and re-read the pages where it applies. I mean, what would it help? You remember the pages, correct? The imagery, the words, etc? I can do it, but I fail to see how it would help when the pages and the chapters revolving around the content are small enough to memorize, and it is nice to familiarize ones's self with the pages when discussing it anyways. If you truly will not even consider something with well formed arguments, what are the linking the same pages that you most likely remember vehemently going to do? Especially after all of this discussion about it from everyone, with more than a few very well-formed arguments from them.
 
 
::It was stated by him (Fukasaku), but there's no inclination to believe all people who train in senjutsu turn into toads, otherwise why Toad Sage teachers? Why have any difference in 3 of the 4 known human sages? I keep reiterating this and yet no rebuttal is brought forth. We could just have all people who dabble in sage mode become Toad Sages, and be taught by Toads. But there is a Snake sage, and given that, plus the fact they will teach humans, there would be a lot of parallels with the frogs. That's a generally understood concept. But also notice I am not saying to put it into the article, because it hasn't been introduced. I am not as foolish and ignorant as you believe I am, or have the lack of motivation to read all of the edits. That isn't the topic of discussion, however. And just because you keep going over it, same as I, doesn't mean either of us are correct or that both of us didn't read anything.
 
 
::Jiraiya was imperfect, yes, and you did, at least in text form if not memory, forget about that, or you did not clarify, at least. You suggested Jiraiya was perfect and that the reason for the difference compared to Naruto was that sage mode is peculiar, essentially. To quote, "Heck, Jiraiya's appearance was crazy and didn't really resemble Naruto's at all. ", and given the context combined with the rest of the sentences surrounding it, that's how it came out. It did resemble it, however, in his eyes. Jiraiya's frog-like features were a result of him being unable to perfectly balance natural energy and his own, not a result of just having sage mode activated. But as for Kabuto, yes, he already had them due to modifications a la Orochimaru. Yes, that's been quite established, by others and myself. The difference, and the error, however, is the overwhelming power of emphasis you give it relative to sage mode; the two are not related. Kabuto's horns are a nod to Asian folklore -- I'm the one, IIRC, that first brought it up, unless I missed it in someone's earlier edit. But that doesn't mean it is just a nod. We would infer that without having Kabuto being so excited about being a dragon and not a snake; or that Orochimaru (the snake) also learned from the Snake Sages, which suggests that, similar to anyone learning from the Toads, or wherever Hashirama learned his, they will exhibit signs relative to where they learned it. He actually isn't a special case when it comes to the mode, and that is highly speculative you believe so. On the contrary, it isn't, and shouldn't be special. Yes, he is modified, but with what rational do you assert that makes a difference at all? I don't understand why, despite me ''profusely'' emphasizing his pre-existing condition pre-sage mode, that you think I believe it is a result of sage mode. I NEVER suggested that. So no, there are no false comparisons. I am unbelievably aware, and have continuously stated, my understanding, at great, pain-staking lengths, of the differences of Kabuto and imperfect Toad Sage Jiraiya. I am astounded. Regardless of how you feel, there are things which cannot be denied when it comes to the different products resulting from the same technique. What we don't know is how it happens. There are divisions, but you are seemingly blending them, or outright ignoring them. The fact there are so many differences resulting from the same technique (sans basic improvements from senjutsu (improved strength, etc; improved ninjutsu, etc)), even if the differences are only visual (which is just as huge as anything else), suggests a division. Even if you don't believe in a difference between Kabuto and the Toads Sages, then explain Hashirama, who has no pre-existing condition and yet changes beyond what we have seen from the Toad Sages and Snake Sages.
 
 
::And you are right, we don't know if Hashirama is perfect. I never suggested he was. And the only reason people believe Kabuto is perfect is because of his speech to Itachi and Sasuke about how he became a dragon instead of a snake like Orochimaru, which, given the folklore and just general comparison (you do not even have to know about the folklore) that Kabuto was making, suggests the top/best. But he could be imperfect for all we know, since it isn't directly stated. He could've, hypothetically, even been in sage mode the entire time given his modifications based on Juugo. But I am not suggesting that, if that's what you believe.
 
 
::I truly am done at this point. When it has gotten to a point I feel the need to write so much, I need, personally, to stop; it's gotten out of hand with all of the assumptions you believe I am making, the assumptions I do not read, etc. I have no patience for it anymore. If you still, at this point, would like me to post links to the chapters for you, even though they honestly will do nothing to aid, that is something I would do on your talk page. --[[Special:Contributions/98.101.165.89|98.101.165.89]] ([[User talk:98.101.165.89|talk]]) 20:15, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
I just believe we need to remove speculation and use neutral labels since we can't confirm nor deny some things. But I'm pointing out, that Hashirama supports my hypothesis. I believe natural energy changes everyone in a different way and the resulting form is what they resemble the most/are associated with, there's more that hints on this (look at curse mark users, they don't turn into snakes, do they? Also Jugo Clan's members were also shown each with a different form)
 
Even perfect sages get animal eyes of a species, yet, Hashirama's eyes didn't change at all, he just gained the pigmentation (true sign) and a marking on forehead resembling the third eye, thus it has nothing to do with animal trainers at all, rather does with users themselves. The same thing can't have different effects on individuals, that's nonsensical, rather each individual reacts to it differently. Instead of "x type sage mode" it should be "x user in sage mode" there's only 2 official forms, perfect and imperfect.
 
And as stated, many things repeat in the article, there's the same advantages&disadvantages for everyone by default, the differences stem from their unique workarounds/countering only, like the shoulder-merging-no-jutsu and insert jugo dna so you don't have to sit all day thingy--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:09, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
== Article Restructure or not? ==
 
 
Since the previous section didn't amount to... anything (my bad). So, is the article going to be restructred or not? No one seemed to come to any overall agreement in regards to the technique. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 00:32, March 1, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:The way I see it, the article should be re-structured like this:
 
::*Sage Mode
 
:::*stuff in common with all sage modes (main, or at least, original complaint was redundancy)
 
::::*increase in power of nin,tai,genjutsu
 
::::*cloak of natural energy
 
::::*ability to sense chakra
 
:::::*increase in reflexes/perceptual abilities (yes its the same thing, naruto could dodge the raikage's impossibly fast spear, kabuto could dodge sasuke's impossibly fast arrow)
 
:::*note differences based on animal/where taught
 
:::*different characters uses
 
 
::This way, redundancy is reduced while keeping things seemingly unique separate. Hope this makes people happy. [[User:MangekyoSasuke|MangekyoSasuke]] ([[User talk:MangekyoSasuke|talk]]) 01:23, March 1, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Bump. [[User:MangekyoSasuke|MangekyoSasuke]] ([[User talk:MangekyoSasuke|talk]]) 00:22, March 2, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Again. [[User:MangekyoSasuke|MangekyoSasuke]] ([[User talk:MangekyoSasuke|talk]]) 20:29, March 2, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
I support the proposed restructuring proposed to cut down the redundancy. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 22:57, March 2, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:I agree with the cutting of redundancy. I remain against the removal of the Toad, Snake, whatever the hell Hashirama is.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 00:27, March 3, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Cool, who is bored?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 05:04, March 3, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
I'm somewhat bored (and ill) now, and no work today, so I suppose I could do it. :-) Seelentau thinks we should as well (my talk page). He could only think that we should split the article based on user. @TU3 Would Seelentau's or MangekyoSasuke's suggestions satisfy? :) Or how about these?:
 
 
:
 
*The opening section of the article already does a decent job going over the general abilities of Sage Mode, so it would a good place to make use of in reducing some redundancy.
 
 
*First section, ''Mt. Myoboku'' (or something better any of you think of), which would go over the practicioners that learned from Mt. Myoboku. First sub-section would be over Jiraiya's imperfect usage (''Imperfect Sage Mode''), while the second over the balanced usage of the technique (''True Sage Mode''). Or perhaps we should divide it into ''Balanced'' and ''Unbalanced'', referring to the [[Natural energy]]?
 
 
*Create 2 more sections, ''Kabuto Yakushi'' and ''Hashirama Senju'', to list any current or future quirks (if any) of their respective usages.
 
 
*Note in the trivia that we don't currently know if these are distinct Sage Modes or user specific oddities.
 
 
I think that may satisfy those of us who disagree as to the nature of the technique. Thoughts? [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 15:17, March 3, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Sounds okay, an action should be made first and only then disagreements and displeasure might come of it--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:31, March 3, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Please do not differ between imperfect and true sage mode, since that would sound like there is more than one sage mode. Jiraiya is in sage mode, Naruto is in sage mode. The only difference is that Naruto can use it better than his sensei. He simply has more control over the natural energy balance in his body, that doesn't make his sage mode anything different. Write something like "Since Jiraiya has no complete control over the natural energy in his body, he looks more like a toad than Naruto does, who can maintain a perfect balance of the three energies.". As I said on your talk page, Skitts, there is only one Sage Mode, there's no perfect or snake or dragon sage mode. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 15:45, March 3, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Yeah, still, sounds less fanmade than "animal mode" xD "Perfect balance" and "Partial balance" sounds like terms that should be used imo
 
EDIT: the article should cover only the technique itself, those bodily changes and shit aren't a part of the technique, more like a consequence of failing to balance natural energy perfectly and should be covered elsewhere--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:58, March 3, 2013 (UTC)
 
:It's simple: The more balanced the three energies are, the less froggy are the looks of the user. This goes from turning into a frog to somewhat looking like a toad to having eye shades. And you are wrong, the technique describes the effects of natural energy in a human body. The looks are a part of those effects, thus they should be covered in this article. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 16:01, March 3, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Yes, in the user section but not as a part of "powers" description. But I believe these changes belong more here [[Natural Energy]] since natural energy is responsible for physical changes outside of sage mode--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:03, March 3, 2013 (UTC)
 
:Of course not in the powers-part of the article. But there are no physical changes outside of the sage mode. Going into Sage Mode means absorbing natural energy, which may result in physical changes if the natural energy isn't in balance with the other two. The physical changes are a direct result of absorbing natural energy. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 16:07, March 3, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
(Edit conflict time SIX)
 
@Seelentau I didn't say they were different techniques, which is why I also recommended dividing the Myoboku section into Balanced/Unbalanced, to indicate skill difference. :-P Oh and since the effects of Sage Mode are directly relevant to the technique (axiomatically), they belong here. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 16:10, March 3, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
@Tau, I'm talking about Jugo and his clan, their enzyme isn't responsible for their bodily changes alone, it's the catalyst that causes their bodies to respond to natural energy differently than "ordinary" people do, without it, they would turn into a statue. The "body altering" thing is an attribute of natural energy in general--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:21, March 3, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:I still have ever intention of noting the the Toad, Snake, whatever the hell Hashirama is.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 17:53, March 3, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
I think this one is gonna go down as the longest discussion of this wiki. That aside i'm also in favor of the re-structuring of the article to remove redundancies, at least those that are ability related. Either way since most appear to be in favor, why not just start? [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 22:09, March 6, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Has anyone come up with a draft yet? [[User:MangekyoSasuke|MangekyoSasuke]] ([[User talk:MangekyoSasuke|talk]]) 22:12, March 10, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
== improved chakra control? ==
 
 
Just wondering, wouldn't an explanation of Naruto being capable of creating Rasengan without a clone and in one hand or even two in each at the same time, be a proof of Sage Mode improving chakra control as well?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:57, March 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
bump--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:10, March 12, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
When has he? I only recall something like that happening in Kurama Mode. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 21:35, March 12, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
[[Sage Art: Big Ball Rasengan]] and [[Sage Art: Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan]] and [[Sage Technique: Spiralling Serial Spheres]]--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:46, March 12, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
:[[Sage Art: Big Ball Rasengan]]: He didn't make that with one hand, he had clones with him when he was running forward, then they got big.
 
 
:[[Sage Art: Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan]]: Didn't see a clone for that one.
 
 
:[[Sage Technique: Spiralling Serial Spheres]]: Can assume he didn't have a clone, but considering we didn't know he was making the Rasengans until the Animal Path was inside the toad's mouth, we don't know.
 
 
::It is also worth noting that someone stated somewhere at some point that Naruto could make Rasengans without clones in Part II, but by that point just preferred to use clones. It was also stated at some point by someone somewhere that Kishimoto just didnt care enough to draw another clones in every picture.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 00:08, March 13, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Nice explanation, then perhaps we should remove/change some instances that mention he can't due to poor chakra control and stuff. Actually his chakra control has become very good by now, so it even makes sense that it's simply his style, not limitation, if we have references, that's it. I think he did in anime or movies, but that's not much canon, but perhaps could serve enough--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 00:15, March 13, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
The one issue I have with Ultra-Big Ball one is that it was done in the mindscape, not actual real world. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 01:07, March 13, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
Very true, just thought something was fishy about this, that's why I brought it up, but since there's not much evidence for that...--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:34, March 13, 2013 (UTC)
 

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Madara Edit

He basically just stole it from Hashirama, but he also stated that he managed to master it very quickly, so he should be listed as a user, right? Norleon (talk) 12:49, December 4, 2013 (UTC)

I think it is the same with his Wood Release. It doesn't matter if the ability was stolen or acquired through body modifications, if he is using it, then he is an user. Shadow Abyss (talk) 13:27, December 4, 2013 (UTC)
I think the situation is a bit subtler than that. With Wood Release, all Madara needed was a physical piece of Hashirama to be grafted in his body. For Sage Mode, even though he already had the physical implant, he had to go to Hashirama. He drained Hashirama of his senjutsu chakra (which I find very odd, since I don't recall Hashirama being in Sage Mode the last few chapters). He didn't make the senjutsu chakra himself (as far as we know), we don't even know if Madara knows the mechanics of how senjutsu chakra comes to be (though I believe he does). We don't consider people Naruto gave tailed beast chakra to be jinchūriki, so I don't think Madara should be considered a Sage Mode user, even if he's using the senjutsu chakra. The whole situation is murky. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:45, December 4, 2013 (UTC)
Hello sempai. In regards to Madara i would have to disagree a bit...in an earlier chapter, he said he was going to take Hashi' senjutsu powers in chapter 647. Now in this one Madara says how the power of the senjutsu chakra was dissapointing and he believed it would be harder to control it. Not only that, but we say the perfect Sage pattern appear in Madara's chest face. Also we know that if unless senjutsu chakra can be balanced, the user will display animal traits and eventually turn into an animal statue. Being a sage is being one who can balance and control senjutsu chakra within himself. From where i see it, Madara simply took a shortcut to attain the same result. Darksusanoo (talk) 00:51, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
But there's something that has never been clarified: does senjutsu chakra require active balancing once it is made? I mean, do you have to keep balancing the spiritual, physical and natural energies once the senjutsu chakra is made, or once made in the perfect ratio, the chakra is stable? I also find it very odd that it was only the Hashirama face that got the markings, and that Madara himself didn't get them. And I repeat, Madara himself has not made the chakra as far as we know. We don't list every shinobi Naruto gave Kurama's chakra a host, because the source of the chakra is not in them. Madara may have a Hashirama graft, but the graft was not the source of the chakra he is using. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:40, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
But as Madara said, he did had to control the senjutsu chakra, even if that took less effort than what he originally assumed. Also i believe once the initial control is gained the chakra remains stable, but as we all know senjutsu chakra doesn't renew itself so for sages, there is no chakra source, they have to take the energy from outside sources and balance it with their own. If Madara hadn't gain control over the chakra, he'd turn into an animal like the Preta Path when he absorbed Naruto's chakra. And it was defined in the article that control (even if imperfect) over senjutsu chakra is what makes a sage. Also the Kurama comparison doesn't really fit here sempai, since we are talking about two very different types of chakra. Graft or no graft, that face is a part of Madara's body, thus its part of Madara himself and as such anything derived from it is Madara's own at this point.
  • Another little side detail to add to this is Madara's insane sensing prowess after his revival. Given how Uchiha senses are restricted to visual/dojutsu ones and how once that is lost, their battle prowess takes a nosedive. (Izuna's death and Madara's final defeat against Hashi comes to mind.) I ask...how did Madara managed to dance around a Sharingan/sword master's attack, sense the peculiar traits of Sasuke's Sharingan, all while being effectively blind? The only type of sensing prowess this strong is that of a sage...remember Kabuto vs Sasuke and Itachi? Kabuto was also blind to prevent genjutsu and still outfought the brothers due his sensing in Sage Mode. Darksusanoo (talk) 01:57, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

The Preta Path case isn't the best example, since the zoom in Naruto when he opened his eyes sort of implied he himself introduced an imbalance in the senjutsu chakra while it was being absorbed. And it's not the senjutsu chakra per se that transforms one into an animal and then a statue, it's the overwhelming natural energy that does if you can't control its flow. Regarding sensing, Madara has been noted a sensor for a while now, and not due to his eyes. I goes back to at least when he first detected Hashirama's and made that psycho face. He's been listed as a sensor at least since then. Kabuto wasn't exactly blind. His brille made a filter to his eyes, you could still see the snake pupils behind them when they were lowered. Base Madara already had sensing. If anything, I'd say that the sage chakra is boosting an ability he already had. This is similar to Orochimaru's case. We know Oro's cursed seals contain his senjutsu chakra, but those who use his cursed seals are not Sage Mode users. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:13, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

If Naruto had introduced the imbalance, the perfect sage pattern wouldn't have appeared on his face...it would look like Jiraiya's pattern if anything and in no way was it implied that Naruto gave the Preta Path imbalanced chakra...if anything he overloaded him with senjutsu chakra to turn him into a statue, but the statue turned into stone because it couldn't handle the senjutsu chakra. Yes Madara is a sensor, but to the degree of compensating the loss of his dojutsu, a major pillar in the Uchiha's fighting style? Kabuto did blind himself...he said at least once or twice to Itachi that he had cut off his eyesight to prevent eye based genjutsu. Why are you bringing Oro's cursed seals, when we know those were derived from Jugo's KKG...which is a different thing...however Madara did display the pattern signs of perfect sage control and remarked that he had to exert control over the chakra...all traits of a sage. Darksusanoo (talk) 02:23, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
The focus on Naruto only happened when the shading around his eyes was all but over. Introducing an imbalance in the chakra would have snowballed in the Preta Path, leading to the petrification. Regarding Madara's sensing, what I'm saying is that even if he is using sage chakra, he's not using Sage Mode itself. I brought Orochimaru up because despite the cursed seals coming from Jūgo, the explicitly say that the cursed seals contain Orochimaru's senjutsu chakra. It's in the pages that show Orochimaru taking back his chakra from Kabuto. I still don't see pigmentation around Madara's own eyes, which according to Fukasaku are the sign of a true sage. Madara essentially took sage chakra someone else had a put in a graft battery. I'm saying that Madara is a similar situation to Orochimaru in which one has senjutsu chakra, but not Sage Mode itself. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:13, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
People keep saying that Hashi's face is a graft. Has no one ever assumed it was a mutation caused by the introduction of the First's Dna into one's body? Madara himself said that he infused the DNA into his wounds. So that's not a graft, its a mutation side effect, he didn't build and plaster a second Hashi face into his body, neither did Danzo. Its like having an extra limb...just because it's extra, what's done with it is still yours, your doing, possession and responsability. Also wasn't a similar discussion brought up, when someone wanted to separate senjutsu from sage mode? Wasn't it concluded that excluding Jugo/Oro's seals due to them being KKG-bound, that regular individuals were required to enter Sage Mode in order to use senjutsu. So unless you wanna unleash that box of scorpions again. The sage pattern appeared in Madara's face, in this case his second face...and even if he did what you say he did sempai, he's still a sage at this point, since he still had to balance and control the senjutsu chakra he took in without the aid of a KKG...it maybe an atypical case, but the traits exibited by Madara are more aligned with Sage Mode than Sage/Cursed Seal Transformation.Darksusanoo (talk) 03:29, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
Madara is not using Sage Mode. He stole Hashirama's chakra and is using his "Hashirama face", if you will, to use Hashirama's Sage Mode. Therefore he is not a user. All this about him "controlling the chakra" is irrelevant and seems to be nothing more than a desperate attempt to list him as a user. It is A) Not his Senjutsu chakra, B) Not his Sage Mode, and C) Not his own body controlling it, but the "Hashirama face" doing it for him. He should not be listed whatsoever until he is shown using it on his own. Its absolutely no different that Kakashi and the other shinobi using Naruto's Kyūbi chakra after he gave it to them. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 04:08, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
So by that standart, please remove him (and everyone who's not Hashirama) as a Wood Release user, since he can only use it because of the "Hashirama face". Sure just toss aside one of the main pillars of sage mode/senjutsu, which is actually managing to not get turned into an animal statue, that makes perfect sense. "Not his own body controlling it"? Last time i checked...Hashi's face isn't detachable from Madara's body like a Lego piece, nor is it a tool of any kind, but a mutation caused by the integration of the First's DNA...Madara may be using Hashi's face, but that face is a part of Madara's body now, like anyother of his limbs so you saying he's using the face is like saying he's using the left arm instead of the right to swing a blade...its all part of his body...not originally sure, but it is now...that's like saying that a person who has an extra limb isn't responsible/can't control what that extra limb does...Darksusanoo (talk) 04:29, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
The precedent Kabuto created with his chest snake means that if you are in control of some freaky growth that can use some other technique, you are using that technique. So yeah, lets not try and think to stupid on this one. Madara is using Hashirama's Sage Mode, he gets listed as using Sage Mode.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 04:34, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
No disrespect intended when I say this, but that has to be the most asinine reasoning for listing someone as a user I've ever heard. With Wood Release and Kabuto's snake... thing, the genetics of the person using the technique were apart of their new user; Wood Release in Danzo, Obito, Yamato, etc., and the Sound Four's in Kabuto. We saw him injecting the blood. Madara cannot use Sage Mode. He didn't absorb natural energy from the air and mix it with his chakra to make Senjutsu chakra, he stole the Senjutsu chakra Hashirama already had and used it through HASHIRMA's body parts that had been grafted into him. How the hell is that, in the sweet name of the baby Jesus, usage of Sage Mode? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 06:58, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

@Dark, to clarify, the Hash-chest-face is Kabuto's work as confirmed in the latest chapter, it didn't happen to Madara as he had gotten Hash's cells at all, just white skin. For the Sage Mode, yes, he is a user I believe, but if he should be listed as a Sage is questionable. As stated, it's the Hash-chest-face that has gotten the facial markings, not his own. And THIS IS EXACTLY why I brought up a while ago a forum about us listing users having KKG powers or otherwise as either them being temporary (transplant/experiment) or permanent (blood trait). So what does that tell us, true, he is no less user of Sage Mode now than Danzo was of Wood Release. Even tho he can do it only thanks to a foreign matter attached to his body, he had to control it and managed to and as such is a user. But a Sage has to be able to sense, absorb and balance natural energy himself, which he hasn't done. So short story: user of sage mode- yes but not a sage, reverse case of Orochimaru.--Elveonora (talk) 13:17, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

Mhm. The Spoken word. Glad to see you editing again Elveo. Sorry to just jump into this discussion. But i agree.--Senju SymbolKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 14:37, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
Asinine it may be Ten Tailed Fox, but it is what it is. He has a freaky construct of Hashirama's face on his chest, he absorbed Hashirama's senjutsu chakra and is able to manipulate it under his own will. He himself may not be in Sage Mode, but he is using it. Unlike Danzo, Madara is in control of his stolen ability, Danzo was not. WHen he got messed up the Wood Release ran wild.
That being said, he is not a sage because he didn't actively learn the art of senjutsu he just sucked it out of one person.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 16:18, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
I know he's not a Sage, but he doesn't even seem to be in the least bit familiar with Senjutsu chakra. "So this is the coveted Senjutsu chakra." Doesn't say to me he even knows what he's doing. I mean, its like Omnibender said. Naruto gave everyone in the Alliance Kurama's chakra. Shoot, the Rookies even used a Tailed Beast Mode cloak. We're not listing them as psuedo-jinchūriki because they controlled that chakra, did we? No. Its no different here. I just don't like the faulty, paper-thin layer of logic that some seem to be using as an excuse to list him as a Sage Mode user. He's not. But, if that ends up being the consensus, I won't fight it. Just seems like a really big mistake to me. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 16:30, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
Madara said that he thought he would have a hard time manipulating it. Might just be better to wait for Raws though.~UltimateSupreme 17:04, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

TU3, what does Kabuto's navel snake have anything to do with this? The snake was never implicated in his use of Sage Mode, only in the skills he acquired from Orochimaru. He already had the snake while not in Sage Mode. The thing that sets Madara apart in this case, is that this isn't simply a case of grabbing a physical part of a third party and having access to its abilities. Madara already had the Hashigraft, and yet he had to go grab the senjutsu chakra from Hashirama himself. If he's at least aware of how senjutsu works, he'd certainly Gary Stu his way into mastering the whole process in half a heartbeat, like the overachiever he is, making the whole theft of the chakra pointless. Another example of non-use of technique, is Rasengan. Rookie 9 each took a Rasengan and slammed Obito with it, but we don't list them as users. Madara is the same thing. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:51, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

Should it not be noted that Hashirama's SM increases regeneration? As Madara's wound from Sasuke's 'Kusanagi' explicitly healed up within a very short time after adopting the pseudo-SM. Maybe this is what Madara was referring to about Hashirama's Byakugou-esque healing? Pesa123456789 (talk) 19:25, December 8, 2013 (UTC)

Hash cells in themselves heal and shi* as shown with Obito, nothing with senjutsu. But I thought what healed Madara was QB chakra anyway--Elveonora (talk) 22:03, December 8, 2013 (UTC)

By the Light this is still going?
The snake has nothing to do with Sage Mode. I was pointing out that Kabuto pulled out Orochimaru and the Sound Five from the naval snake and we count him as having used their techniques and their kekkei genkai. Ergo, Madara pulling out Sage Mode and putting it into his Hashichestface and as he said he can manipulate it to mean means, unless we just decide to say "eff it" and decided just because all hate Madara that he isn't using Sage Mode, he is using Sage Mode.
And I thought i brought up the Rookie 9 thing. The Rookie Nine actually didn't do a damn thing. They jumped into Naruto's chakra, Naruto formed the Rasengans and all his friends did was push. They ain't manipulate nothing. It was the same thing when Naruto pushed Killer B's tailed beast ball through 30 barriers.
Now that being said, I'm already bored witht his discussion. If we want to say Madara is not using Sage Mode then I'm willing to just call everyone out for bullcrap but let it be removed without a fuss anyway so long as we also take into account Kabuto's actions with his weird body modifications.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 02:37, December 9, 2013 (UTC)

But the difference with Kabuto is that all those techniques, implants or not, originated within him, in his body. Madara already had the Hashirama face in him, and even them he had to go take the senjutsu chakra. That is what I think constitutes the Orochimaru-like situation of using senjutsu chakra, without actually using Sage Mode. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:12, December 10, 2013 (UTC)

Questionable Content Edit

For some time now, the article has been broken up into sections more or less stating that there are different Sage Modes. In the past I've questioned the source of this, and I never felt I was given adequate justification, and certainly not in the vein that is usually demanded on the wiki. There seems to be zero mention in the manga by ANY practitioner of Sage Mode that what Hashirama and Kabuto do is any different, in terms of the basal technique, to what Naruto does. Now, one thing offered up is that Kabuto and Hashirama have different designs around their eyes, and that Fukasaku noted that Naruto had the eye designs of a true sage. Well, that's not accurate actually. All Fuksasaku said (Ch. 418 pg. 5) is that the dark pigmentation around the eyes are the mark of a true Sage, he never made mention or note of it being specifically a mark of a Toad Sage, or anything else, just that of one who has perfected Sage Mode. And given both Hashi and Kabuto fit that description, and made no mention of using some specific brand of SM, I'd put in my suggestion that the article be fixed to remove a lot of unfounded assumptions one must make for it to make sense. Thoughts? Skitts (talk) 07:29, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

At the very least, it could be separated by user, so we could say "Naruto Uzumaki's Sage Mode" or "Kabuto Yakushi's Sage Mode" instead of made-up names like Toad Sage Mode and Snake Sage Mode which imply different types. The current implication that each version has different strengths and weaknesses also seems unnecessary. Stating things like Kabuto's and Hashirama's not having enhanced durability because Sasuke's sword could cut them seems like a big assumption; Pain's rods could pierce Naruto after all.--BeyondRed (talk) 07:39, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
I really don't understand how there can be different sage modes. The sage mode is simply the state of ones body when it absorbed natural energy. There are no different kinds of natural energy one can absorb and we don't have the slightest explanation for why the absorbtion of the same energy results in different looks. So yes, I agree with Beyond, we should differ by user, not by looks. Seelentau 愛 09:34, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Agreed Seelentau. It is just balancing natural energy with one's own inner energies after all. I think one thing we might do is simply mention that all known perfect sages (among humans anyway) had different designs around and on the eyes, but they all possessed the distinctive mark of a perfect Sage that Fukasaku mentioned. It avoids all extra assumptions but mentions how each user differs aethestically. But should we split it by user? I can't really think of anything in particular that Kabuto or Hashirama did with the form itself that was noticeably different from Naruto. They each just seemed to power-up their techniques. Suggestions? Skitts (talk) 13:44, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Hey Skitts long time no see, I was wondering where you have gone to ^_ And yes, thank you for bringing up again one of my favorite unresolved and ignored topics!!! Now, all we have to do is await for naysayers and unnamed sysops to come and paste a giant red NO on our foreheads to prove their might and ignorance. I'm not having anyone specific in particular on my mind of course :D Just generally speaking about those who disagree. And yes, there should be a single section listing all the benefits of Sage Mode, not for "different" modeS since there are none other and a removal of the animal labels as well. There is just this weird phenomenon for those who were taught by snakes turn into snakes, those that by toads into toads etc. so there's where the assumptions of different modes come from--Elveonora (talk) 13:50, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Hey. Real life (school and work), hobbies and forgetfulness kept me away. I still checked in every so often, just never got involved. xD Anyway, I'd question whether individuals who were taught by snakes would turn into snakes. We've never seen Kabuto loose control of natural energy, so the safest assumption is that he would turn into a toad as Naruto nearly did and the Preta Path actually did. Kabuto was already a snake, after all. :) Sage Mode just seemed to enhance his snake-related abilities, which is unsurprising given Fukasaku mentioned one's abilities are increased by it (ex: Naruto's healing rate and stamina). Skitts (talk) 14:45, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
But Preta Path having turned stone toad statue is a problem, isn't it? This for one gives evidence to their assertion of "animal specific" modes. But why would Kabuto have turned into a toad had he failed to master it? That would have implied Sage Mode having origins with the toads. Only good thing is that if that were true, it would actually take away credibility to their assertion of different modes, because it would mean every single Sage Mode is "toad sage mode" So basically both evidence for and against appear to be contradictory to the explanation as why that happens.
If everyone turns into a toad no matter what, it means a single Sage Mode, if it differs from person to person (which we are yet to see) then that doesn't necessarily mean many different modes :) So I think there's more evidence for a single Sage Mode--Elveonora (talk) 14:57, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
There seems to be no need to divide it into sections. All are basically the same. Probably a Known Sage Modes or something similar in the end might work.--~UltimateSupreme 15:04, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
@Elveonora The Preta Path example is the one that best supports the idea of a single Sage Mode. Remember, all Naruto did was pass on natural energy (or maybe senjutsu chakra) to him through his absorption technique, and the Preta Path, who had no known affiliation with any Sage location, still turned into a toad. And this doesn't indicate necessarily that Sage Mode originated with the toads (although it wouldn't really matter), as Fukasaku just said that a toad transformation and pretrification were the natural effects of not controlling the natural energy, not that it had anything to do with who Naruto was affiliated with when learning it. So given Kabuto drew in natural energy for the mode as all Sages do, the best assumption is that improper use would result in a toad transformation.
Well, I guess I'll get to it then. Or should we wait for more yays and nays? Skitts (talk) 15:35, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Maybe we should look at the broader picture of natural energy. The Shinju, natural energy embodied, originally a tree, has taken upon MANY form. Shapeshifting/transformation is a trait of natural energy it would appear. Same for Jugo's Clan and Curse Mark users, they all have different forms. And as such I don't like the notion of every Senjutsu School dropout turning into a toad and would like to ignore the Preta Path instance altogether. Perhaps Kishi didn't give it as much thought as we do. I like to convince myself that the form they take is dependent on their personality traits. This would explain why for example Jugo, who has unstable mind can shapeshift into many things, while Curse Mark users who did not get the madness part all have just a single form.--Elveonora (talk) 15:51, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Well now, that's the kind of speculation we're trying to remove from the article. :) What the Shinju does is kind of irrelevant here, it's the origin of all chakra too after all, and chakra has all sorts of uses. We already know there's a shapeshifting element to natural energy, just look at what happened to Jiraiya. Jugo's clan is something of a special case, in that it's their Kekkai Genkai that allows them to do shapeshifting after absorbing a little natural energy, and Orochimaru's Curse Marks are just an imitation of that. And not to sound mean, but it doesn't really matter what you want to be the case, but Fukasaku did note that a toad transformation and petrification is the drawback to improper Sage Mode, with no qualifications. The Preta Path instance cannot be ignored because it was a demonstration of that, with Fukasaku confirming that when it happened. Oh, and madness IS a part of the Curse Mark. Remember, one of the Sound Four told Sasuke that if he remained in the Curse Mark Leve 2 state for too long, he would begin to loose control mentally (Jugo's clan) and the energy would take over his body (like improper Sage Mode). Skitts (talk) 16:22, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

It was said that they would become like Orochimaru, not like Jugo. And I know we are trying to remove speculation, I was speaking hypothetically what would fit and make sense to me. The article just needs to be streamlined without actually removing anything. @Seel, would you look at it?--Elveonora (talk) 16:53, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

Sometimes I think we're the most backward wikia. I really wish that we could agree upon one thing, stick with it, and wait for clarification. Instead we beat dead horses, and those amongst us that were enlightened by JesusBuddhAllaHindugods but walks amongst us lowly humans finds every opportunity to undermine the wiki they can't walk away from. Not you Turry, how u doin~
Any way, we all are supposed to know by now that Sage Mode is just that - Sage mode. We tried to differentiate them because they aren't all the same. Modes learned through different methods reflect differently on persons. Toads look like toads, snakes look more like snakes. Are we supposed to ignore that? Are we supposed to differentiate Naruto's Mode from Jiraiya's even though they both learned from toads? To me the sections explains each usage as accurately as possible. If the pseudo-titles are that much of a bother, they can be changed but we can't lump them all together and ignore the obvious differences. --Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 17:17, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
That's the thing, Kabuto looked like that even without Sage Mode, it just gave him horns. Curse Mark gave Kimimaro- the bone guy, more bones, yet we don't consider that to be the Curse Mark's specific trait. We don't have any reason to believe that without Kabuto's prior experiments he would have looked any different than Naruto, with just the eyes changing. So the only "anomaly" is Hashirama, he we can say has "specific" mode until we learn more. But the animal labels irk me, also there's no reason to repeat "improved strength, speed etc." for each users, it's same for all.--Elveonora (talk) 17:26, January 13, 2014 (UTC)


This whole thing is problematic entirely because of Kabuto as far as I can tell. He's the only one that has other animal traits in Sage Mode, but one can't forget that he was a snake beforehand. My only problem is that it seems the only real reason we have the article like it is because Kabuto shenanigans. And I'm good Cerez. How goes you browski? Skitts (talk) 17:30, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we already have "toad sage mode" before Kabuto was even revealed to be a Sage Mode user?--Elveonora (talk) 17:32, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Nope. Skitts (talk) 17:34, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Cerez reflects my issue with lumping all of the Sage Mode styles together. Basically when you want to get down to it, yes there everything is Sage Mode. But then you get into the seperate styles: Naruto and Jiraiya learned Sage Mode from the toads. Kabuto and Orochimaru learned Sage Mode from the snakes (tho Kabuto was the only one who could make actual use of it).--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 21:26, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

"He's the only one that has other animal traits in Sage Mode" ~ Skitts

Not true, Jiraiya's hands, feet and face all took on toad like traits because he wasn't a "Perfect" sage. At the same time, in Sage mode, both Jiraiya and Naruto's eyes gain horizontal slits, whereas Kabuto gained vertical slits, which, given what happened with Kurama's power and sage mode, if the horizontal slit is indicative of Sage mode, and his eyes had the slit as a result of experimentation, shouldn't he has + shaped eyes too? Jugo, as the only example of his clan's ability without tampering, has no defined animal trait, but unsurpassed transformation properties compared to the rest. Hashirama's Sage form comes with markings unlike the others, but no particular animal trait or transformation from what we've seen. While all these characters possess a Sage Mode, or in Jugo's case a transformation related to the absorption of natural energy, none of them except the two trained by Toads share traits beyond facial marking, so saying that all Sage modes are the same is a lot more inaccurate than splitting them up. Even if they are mechanically the same, superficial things like the different facial markings and mutation from failure are seemingly independent of one another.--Hawkeye2701 (talk) 21:47, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

Hawkeye, you do realize I was talking about people who complete Sage Mode, right? Hence why I only brought up Naruto, Kabuto and Hashirama in that instance. Further, Kabuto ALREADY had vertical slits before Sage Mode, as well as most of all the animal traits. All he gained were horns as far as we can tell. Saying that all Sage Modes are the same is the most canonical thing to say given statements by Fukasaku that I've already mentioned, namely that the defining mark of a Sage is dark pigmentation around the eyes. He didn't make not of any particular design, but of dark pigment alone, which both Hashirama and Kabuto certainly had. And come on man, NO WHERE have we seen mutation from misuse be anything other than turning into a toad (i.e Preta Path and Naruto). We've never seen Kabuto or Hashi loose control, so you've no leg to stand on for your case.
@TU3 What do you mean by different styles? Different teachers sure, but I can't recall any display of anything specific to a particular user of Sage Mode, aside from individual techniques. Skitts (talk) 22:12, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
It means exactly as it sounds. While there is one Sage Mode, there are three known styles of it: Toad, which Naruto and Jiraiya use, Snake, which Kabuto can do and Orochimaru knows about, and Whatever-the-Eff-Hashirama-Does which Hashirama does. Trying to change it to imply that each Sage Mode is unique to the user implies that the toads at Mount Myōboku can teach someone how to grow brille over their eyes, or a snake from the Ryochi caves can teach someone Frog Kata.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 22:49, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
I could have sworn at one point that the article had an I commented mention that there was no such things as Toad or Snake Sage mode and that they are simply there out of convenience of us chronicling the information. The longer titles like "Sage Mode - taught by toads/snakes" would be bad for linking them in other articles.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 01:59, January 14, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, so I figured I'd get to this since there seems to be basic agreement. So my thought is to essentially remove the noticeable implication that there are distinct-ish Sage Modes, and merge them, give the general effects that Sagee Mode has been confirmed to have. Kabuto didn't display anything fundamentally or substantively different from Naruto, the Toads or Hashirama, so we seem good there. I think the only important thing to note is, as I said earlier, that while all of the designs of completed Sage Mode users differ, yet they all possessed the distinctive marker of a true sage that Fukasaku mentioned (dark pigment around the eyes). We good? We good. Skitts (talk) 01:42, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

The subsections are probably still neccesary to some extent. It could be organised like the Susanoo article - a general overview talking about how it works and what it does (enhanced jutsu, strength, speed, perception, etc.), then subsections for Jiraiya, Naruto, Kabuto, and Hashirama. The subsections could talk about things specific to each user, like Frog Kata, Muki Tensei, Jiraiya forming toad feet, etc. as well as Naruto's method of entering the Sage Mode. This way no unofficial terms are used at all, but all the information is still present and organised.--BeyondRed (talk) 02:34, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
As stated in the edit summary, yeah the last comment (Cerez) implies the discussion was still moving, it just fell off. Good job starting it up again. Maybe this time we can actually get to a conclusion.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 03:12, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
EDIT:And maybe simply just undo my edit and reinstate Skitts. From my first pass of it it doesn't seem wrong, if only a tad formated oddly (It looks weird to me. Probably fine, just looks strange to my old man eyes.)
And for reference, there is Skitt's version of the page Click me.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 03:17, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
Do note that I did all of this because i do like to get a clear end of a discussion. If nobody does say anything, I will consider this the end and make Skitt's version official anyway.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 03:19, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict times 2) @BeyondRed Huh? Muki Tensei is a technique, not a special ability of Kabuto's Sage Mode, Frog Kata is just a fighting-style and Naruto doesn't do anything special in entering Sage Mode. Those subsections are somewhat redundant. The only useful one you mentioned would be the one for Jiraiya, but only because his is the only imperfect transformation we've seen. The others seem superfluos, and the way it is currently lends itself to the unmistakeable implication that Hashiram and Kabuto are doing something distinct from Naruto, which we have no evidence for. The current setup itself is using unofficial terms. @TU3 It did? All that Cerez seems to be saying is some of the rationale behind the usage of the terms. If he was, my mistake. Skitts (talk) 03:21, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

I didn't mean to imply Frog Kata was exclusive to Naruto and that, say, Hashirama couldn't potentially use it because his Sage Mode looks different, that's the sort of speculation that is the current problem. Rather, I think it should be clear that while nothing states other users with "different" Sage Modes can't do certain things (like Frog Kata or Muki Tensei), nothing confirms they can either. At the very least, the article should still have images and descriptions of the four different Sage Modes we've seen, doesn't really have to be in subsections, but that could be a way of organising it so the main section doesn't feel cluttered.--BeyondRed (talk) 05:26, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

Why is it that no one here has ever thought of there being different types of natural energy? Natural energy comes from the ground and the air, emanating from plants and animals, right? So why wouldn't the natural energy be different? Mount Myoboku and Ryuuchi cave both have large populations of toads and snakes respectively, right? So would it not make sense for most of the natural energy to be emanating from them? And that those who train in those places, learn to absorb those specific energies? Has anyone here noticed that almost every cursed seal release resembles actual animals? (If not, go to Orochimaru's Juinjutsu and look at the prison picture). And how Jugo, one that can absorb natural energy innately, can change into anything he wants? Am I seriously the only one here that knows how to put two and two together to realize that what animal you transform into is dependent on what energy you learn to absorb, and other than that, the abilities are the same? Because the way I see it, its the only logical conclusion, and the fact that there are so many that don't understand that disturbs me. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 05:45, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

I actually have thought of that exact thing before and hope it does turn out to be the explanation, but it's still speculation. We can't but information into the article if it can't be referenced or even directly implied.--BeyondRed (talk) 06:30, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
That doesn't explain why Kabuto turns into a snake-dragon when there are no snakes around. The same goes for Naruto. How can he turn into a frog sage when there are no frogs around, whose nature energy would be absorbed by Naruto? Seelentau 愛 09:17, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
Wrong :P Naruto ate a toad and Kabuto had a snake merged with him... /solved?--Elveonora (talk) 21:35, January 24, 2014 (UTC)
Naisu try but no. Seelentau 愛 21:59, January 24, 2014 (UTC)

On topic, Ulti's/Skitt's version looks very good, one more time should it be compared and checked and unless someone will come to disagree, used asap.--Elveonora (talk) 22:57, January 24, 2014 (UTC)

The only thing I would want to add is that training under a certain animal leads to a different style. I don't like how Skitt's version reads as if Kabuto just became a snake Sage for no reason at all. In fact I don't think it even mention the Ryuchi Caves at all.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 23:02, January 24, 2014 (UTC)
As much information should be preserved, just without bias, speculation and vagueness. In the advantages part, it should be added that the user may learn senjutsu techniques unique to his/her animal species, like frog kata from toads, light and stone no jutsu from snakes and so on.--Elveonora (talk) 23:07, January 24, 2014 (UTC)

@BeyondRed Huh? Again, Muki Tensei is just senjutsu, and Frog Kata just a fighting-style. Saying there's no evidence other Sages can't use them is absurd given the series explanations on what ninjustus and chakra manipulation is. If you have the necessary skills to us e a technique, barring any genetic requirement, the technique can be used. Muki Tensei is just senjutsu, ergo other Sages can use it if they knew how, given what we know about chakra manipulation; Frog Kata is useable by any true Sage according to Fukasaku (right after Naruto first entered a completed SM), provided they've learned how.

  • As for why Kabuto changes, that's a little speculatory. My version of the article does note that particular oddity about Kabuto without speculating as to the reason. If we absolutely have to, the most canonical thing would be to go to what Fukasaku said about Sage Mode boosting one's natural abilities. He noted that both Sage Mode and Kurama's chakra boosted Naruto's healing rate to absurd levels. This could account for why Kabuto progresses. He was already a snake, and SM's boosting shows true what Fuksaku said about SM, by making him a 'dragon'. The other relevant problem is Kabuto's DNA tomfoolery, so I doubt even Fukasaku would be exactly sure why. And Kabuto was already a snake, so asking why SM made him a snake is nonsensical. :p

But again, that's more speculatory than I'm comfortable putting in the article as definite.Skitts (talk) 03:42, January 25, 2014 (UTC)

Bump--Elveonora (talk) 14:34, January 30, 2014 (UTC)

Already said my peace. Skitts version is fine, I would just suggest adding different areas appear to form different styles.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 14:36, January 30, 2014 (UTC)
Action > words :P--Elveonora (talk) 14:20, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

Just wanting to say those who revised this page did a excellent job. That is all :) --Questionaredude (talk) 19:59, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Surprised no one mentioned, at all in this discussion that the reason why each Sage Mode should be separate is because each seem to enhance the user's physical abilities differently. Toad Sage Mode gives Naruto, Minato, and Jiraiya enhanced durability, speed, and strength from the feats they've shown. Snake Sage Mode enhances maneuverability, speed and agility, while keeping durability and strength the same as shown in Kabuto. And Hashirama's Sage Mode grants increased endurance and enhances his regeneration, as shown through Madara. All have shown different physical aspects that are actually improved.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 03:42, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
Because that is your opinion and has no place in this article. When someone mentions that Toad/Hashirama/Snake Sage Mode has any variations between the augmentation they offer, then we'll add it, but we don't just add what we come up with off the top of our head to articles. That's called speculation. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 03:59, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
I think you need to look up what speculation actually is. Kishimoto has been distinct on the physical enhancements Sage Mode gave those from the different disciplines. Do you see Kabuto tossing boss summons around? Especially when he failed to send Itachi fly back with a strike? Or Hashirama/Madara doing the same thing? And the durability varies wildly: only Madara's Chakra Disruption Blades have pierced Toad Sage Mode skin, while both Hashirama's and Kabuto's have been pierced by a normal blade. Seriously, feats show it. I've even added them in the past. Not everything needs to be spelled out, this is a logical conclusion.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 04:30, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

That's just your assumption. By the same logic (since Naruto could lift and throw a giant boulder) he could have just thrown Pain away from Konoha, sending him on a tour around the world, yet he didn't.--Elveonora (talk) 17:24, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

Slug Sage Mode Edit

Due to the fact that Sage Mode can be learned from the Toad Sages at Mount Myoboku, from the Snake Sage at the Ryuchi Cave, and we have learned that the slug Katsuyu comes from the Shikkotsu Forest. A place stated to be equally famous to Mount Myoboku and the Ryuchi Cave. It is heavily implied that there are slug sages at the Shikkotsu Forest where one can learn Sage Mode from them. Hashirama Senju, is capable of using a third unknown Sage Mode. Considering his granddaughter, Tsunade, can summon slugs and is called the Slug Princess it is likely that his Sage Mode is the Sage Mode learned from the slugs. Also due to the fact that slugs appear to be aligned with healing and Madara Uchiha stated that he had obtained Hashirama's regenerative abilities (after obtaining his Sage Mode) would this not further imply that he had learned his Sage Mode from the slugs? Also due to the whole toad, snake, and slug symbolism it would make sense. I know it isn't a fact so it cannot be stated. But I think it has enough evidence to be added into the trivia section perhaps? Thoughts anyone? Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 03:46, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

For all we know, Hashirama didn't even learn Sage Mode from an animal. We don't know what he summons if he even summons an animal to begin with. There is no evidence. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 04:00, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

The only known ways so far is via an animal. So where else could he learn it? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 04:25, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

It was stated there was 3 special places that taught senjutsu i believe, the bone forest place, mt. miyoboku and ryuchi cave and orochimaru said the slugs come from bone forest place or whatever. so yes it is VERY likely and possible that that is where Hashi learned it, but it can only be added when confirmed. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 04:42, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

No, it said that the "Ryūichi Cave is a place of equal fame to Myōbokuzan and the Shikkotsu Forest". ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 04:44, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

That that's the name, but he is right Senjutsu is only known to have been taught or stolen like in madara's case. It was also hinted at one point that you did not need a contract to find these places or learn senjutsu there. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 04:49, March 7, 2014 (UTC)


Yes, that's true. But the fact that toads come from Mount Myoboku and there is toad sages there, snakes come from the Ryuchi Cave and there is a snake sage there, and we have learned that there is a Shikkotsu Forest and that the slug Katsuyu comes from there. Especially since Hashirama has a third unknown Sage Mode and so far the previous two sage modes have been Toad and Snake, in order to keep the toad, snake, and slug symbolism it would make since for Hashirama to have a "Slug Sage Mode". But it's true it isn't a fact or officially confirmed. Which is why I suggested adding it to trivia. There is more evidence and similar abilities that hint at it being Slug Sage Mode. So that's why I believe it should be listed in the trivia section. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 04:55, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

My point is, until we have definite proof, we're steering away from speculation. I actually think Hashirama's Sage Mode is related to the slugs myself, but, professionally, that just doesn't belong in an article. Just because Tsunade is his granddaughter doesn't mean he shares her summons, that he has a contract with a slug (the reference you mention, Itachi, is anime-only, and therefore we must throw that out with regards to manga information. You need a contract to summon), or that he learned Sage Mode where the slugs reside. And you're missing another point. The three locations mentioned (for snakes, toads, and slugs) are only noted to be famous. For all we know, there are other places to learn senjutsu. There are just too many unknowns to say for sure. I suggest just letting it go until we get a new databook or clarification in a later chapter. Because, by your logic, we'd have to list Tsunade as a Sage because Orochimaru and Jiraiya learned Senjutsu, so therefore she must've learned it too. See where that kind of loose ends logic leads? Not very productive. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 05:02, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

Alright, I guess you're right. It would be better to wait a little longer until another source of info is released that confirms what Sage Mode Hashirama is using. I get your point. I'll just go ahead and leave this topic alone until further confirmation. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 05:07, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

This is just my opinion but, I don't think it's too far-fetched to assume that there could be a "Slug Sage Mode".
First, to address a topic discussed above, while I agree that there is technically only one Sage Mode, I believe the differences between the modes we see come from the specific techniques used to achieve them. The techniques taught at Mount Myoboku by the toads result in the toad-like traits exhibited by Jiraya and Naruto (even if it's just his eyes) and, while Kabuto already had snake-like traits and may also be a special case due to his self-experimentation, it seems to me that his sage mode (resulting from techniques taught at Ryuchi Cave) only increased said snake-like traits (even if it's just some horns on his face).
If we look at the facts, we know that Shikkotsu Forest is compared to both Mount Myoboku and Ryuchi Cave, and that the three Sannin's summons each come from those locations. Jiraya is known to be a Sage, while Orochimaru is, at the very least, capable of manipulating Sage Chakra (even if his host bodies won't allow him to enter Sage Mode), and is probably also a Sage. While we don't know what technique Hashirama uses to enter Sage Mode, or what summon (if any) he utilizes, Tsunade is his descendant, is one of the three Legendary Ninja, and summons Katsuya. With as many parallels this series seems to implement, it seems reasonable (while still speculative) that Hashirama could have learned the techniques to enter Sage Mode from the slugs at Shikkotsu Forest.
This last bit is highly speculative but, Tsunade's Strength of a Hundred Seal seems very similar to a Curse Mark, or even the Sage Mode markings. I don't believe this to actually be a Sage Art/Technique, but could be modeled after one (sort of like how the Rasengan is modeled after a Tailed Beast Ball). It was stated by Madara that this technique is similar to Hashirama's style of medical ninjutsu, and it is noted that Katsuya is somehow "directly linked to and supported by the seal."
What I take from all of this information is that Hashirama may indeed have been trained in Sage Arts by the slugs of Shikkotsu Forest, which helped him to form his advanced medical ninjutsu techniques. These (non-Sage) techniques would have been passed down to Tsunade who formed the Seal and Creation Rebirth techniques. Obviously, none of this is even hinted at in the series but, being that there are so many gaps in information, this is what I like to fill them with. It just makes sense to me. Hopefully we'll get some sort of official explanation soon.--Tronyc714 (talk) 11:15, June 13, 2014 (UTC)

Perfect Sage Mode Edit

When the user achieves no animalistic traits, they've achieved Perfect Sage Mode. Explicitly said so in the manga since the balance is perfect.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 19:41, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Was the term "perfect" ever used? Also there always are "animalistic" (lol?) traits, them being the eyes and so--Elveonora (talk) 19:54, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, Fukasaku explicitly called the state where no animal traits (like what Jiraiya got) was perfect, with only the eyes and the pigmentation around them being the only change. Check chapter 418.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 19:58, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
No, he doesn't. • Seelentau 愛 20:13, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Then what was the differentiation between Naruto's state and Jiraiya's?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 20:34, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
The unbalanced energies. But I meant Fukasaku and his words. He didn't use "perfect" or anything alike. • Seelentau 愛 20:36, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Fukasaku just said "The pigmentation around his (Naruto's) eyes is the proof of a true Sage, it means he could perfectly balance the three energies. From this point, he truly surpassed Jiraiya!", nothing about a Perfect Sage Mode.--JOA20 (talk) 20:47, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Then just replace "Perfect Sage Mode" with "True Sage Mode". Is that what is being suggested, a denomination for a Sage Mode with perfectly balanced energies? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:08, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
He doesn't say "true", either... • Seelentau 愛 08:52, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

Turning to stone Edit

In the disadvantage section it says If the user draws in too much natural energy, they run the risk of transforming into a toad, and then into stone. We only know that this applies to those who are Toad Sages right? Now that we also got Snake Sages. --Kasan94 Nara Symbol Talkpage 21:52, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

People went full ham when we tried to draw a full separation between Toad Sages and Snake Sages. If you want to add that the "turn to a stone toad" as a risk only for those training under toads, you are welcome to find to put it into the article.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 11:13, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! --Kasan94 Nara Symbol Talkpage 11:38, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
Why would only "toad sages" turn into stone? Natural energy is natural energy--Elveonora (talk) 12:03, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
Because the sentence reads "blah blah blah transforming into a toad, blah blah stone"?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:05, July 28, 2014 (UTC)

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