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Sage Mode and Sage Transformation

Heya, I recently read db4's article on Jugo again and I'm thinking we should kinda do something about the two articles, Sage Mode and Sage Transformation. This is based on two things: In Jugo's db4 article, it says "Taking in the natural energy that's overflowing the earth, he turns into a brutal 'sage'" and in the Konoha Hundred Leafs box in db4, it says "In Jugo's village, the state after invoking the power of Senjutsu is referred to as 'Sage Transformation'". I'm not sure if simply merging them would be the best thing to do, though. What y'all think? Also, it was made pretty clear that Orochimaru was also able to use senjutsu chakra, just not turn into a perfect sage, as Kabuto said. This should definitely be reflected somewhere here. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 10:48, June 4, 2017 (UTC)

Ok. But I have a doubt, I think that the "Sage Trasformation" is the name of Jūgo's Clan's Kekkei Genkai u.u .--Sharingan91 (talk) 15:37, June 4, 2017 (UTC)

That's not true, as you can see from the second quote. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 15:39, June 4, 2017 (UTC)

Ok, I think I understand. So Senjutsu used through KG is called Sage transformation, while Senjutsu used through training is called Sage mode. It's best to combine everything in one single article.--Sharingan91 (talk) 16:04, June 4, 2017 (UTC)

Sage Mode and Sage Transformation is the same thing, just two different names. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 16:13, June 4, 2017 (UTC)

Well, Jugo's ability obviously works another way around than a usual SM, so it still wouldn't be correct to call both the same thing, and should the merger happen, ST deserves at least a separate section. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 16:22, June 4, 2017 (UTC)

But the databook did call them the same thing. Of course they would still get their separate sections. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 16:27, June 4, 2017 (UTC)

I'm personally against it. I'm finding it too convenient that the two jutsu being the same came up just now and not, let's say, two years ago or so, but maybe I'm just imagining things. As for why I'm against it: Sage Transformation is a Kekkei Genkai (or, at the very least, a technique that is only available to those with Jūgo's DNA, meaning that it's a technique available only through a certain Kekkei Genkai), and Sage Mode is not.--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 18:07, June 4, 2017 (UTC)

Why convenient, though? Did something happen the last few days that relates to Sage Mode/Sage Transformation?

Sage Transformation being accessible through a kekkei genkai and Sage Mode not does not mean that it's not the same. Just two different means to reach the same outcome. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 18:21, June 4, 2017 (UTC)

I thought this was old knowledge, I have said the very same thing long time ago, yet everyone disagreed, but suddenly it's the truth 'shakes head' Sage Transformation IS Sage Mode, but it's also more. In other words, when one with Jugo's KKG uses Sage Mode, a physical transformation also occurs because of special body fluids, which trigger a physical transformation, hence the different name for the same feat. The physical transformation doesn't really make it a different jutsu, since it's only a side effect. Shortly said, all Sage Transformation users are by default Sage Mode users.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 10:36, June 5, 2017 (UTC)

I just want to point out, that taking Sage Mode, then adding body fluids into to make them mutate, does turn it into something else. It stops being "Just gathering Natural Energy" into "Gathering natural energy + bodily fluids that mutate". In regards to the articles themselves, aside from specifying that Sage Transformation is basically "Sage Mode on Bodily Fluids", there isn't much else that needs to be done. Because other wise, we end up getting into that stupid argument about what classifies a Sage again.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 11:20, June 5, 2017 (UTC)

There's no stupid argument about that, I think? A sage is someone who can use Senjutsu, a perfect sage is someone who can use Sage Mode/Sage Transformation. But as I said above, I'm not even sure if merging the articles is the best way to handle all this... • Seelentau 愛 ^議 11:45, June 5, 2017 (UTC)

Then like I said, the simplest solution would just be to specify in the Sage Mode article, that when members of a certain clan uses Sage Mode their bodies produce special fluids which mutate their bodies, thus 'Sage Transformation', while in the Sage Transformation article note that this is the result of the certain clan using Sage Mode, which mutates because of their fluids.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 12:24, June 5, 2017 (UTC)

Semi-offtopic question, why doesn't Orochimaru classify as a Sage then, since Jugo does according to DB4 despite his 'sagehood' being made much easier thanks to his powers?--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 18:49, June 5, 2017 (UTC)

If we go by Kabuto's distinction, Orochimaru is indeed a sage. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 19:10, June 5, 2017 (UTC)

The only thing potentially going against Sage Transformation and Sage Mode being the same thing is that there's still the possibility that "Senninka" is a blanket term for all senjutsu-empowered states whereas Sage Mode is just one specific kind of state taught by the toads and snakes. And those DB4 characteristics really shouldn't be used as the basis for anything, they're so wrong that Kabuto is literally missing 3 characteristics in his profile. On a related note, is this also the time to bring back up the fact that no non-human sages are ever said to be using "Sage Mode" in the manga and DB3 only listed Jiraiya as a user?--BeyondRed (talk) 02:53, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

Okay, so I made some changes to the Sage Mode and Sage Transformation articles. Is there anything you'd like to see changed? • Seelentau 愛 ^議 11:01, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

So.. Kabuto and Mitsuki use Sage Transformation, or both ST and Sage Mode? Because they're listed as users of both atm, and Jūgo is not.--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 12:14, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

It is my understanding, that at least Kabuto and Mitsuki's transformation was actually referred to as "Sage Mode", with at least Kabuto's situation outright stating that he used Sage Transformation, to gather the Natural Energy to activate legit Sage Mode. Jugo meanwhile, is basically just hulking out and isn't doing the whole, balance thing.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 12:17, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

^Yeah, I thought so myself, which is why I asked, considering Seele's edit lists them as ST transformations. (Also, off topic, but should Orochi be listed as Sage? He has Jūgo's KKG through Kabuto now.)--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 12:23, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

All ST users are SM users, but not all SM users are ST users. All senjutsu users are sages, all SM/ST users are perfect sages. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 12:48, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

If all senjutsu users are Sages, then how would Kimimaro, the Sound Four and Sasuke be classified, as technically they used senjutsu through their cursed seals?--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 12:57, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

Also, I severely doubt that Jugo can be called a perfect sage even while possessing ST, since the main reason of his surges of rage is the point that he's constantly absorbing NE and as such can't balance it properly. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 13:02, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

Were they specifically said to use Senjutsu, though? I know that Sasuke used natural energy for Susanoo... okay maybe it's one step too much to say that all senjutsu users are sages. Maybe Kabuto meant that those who can use Sage Mode are perfect sages, while the others are just senjutsu users. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 13:10, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

@Seele, yeah, it was said that Orochimaru's cursed seals worked like Jūgo's KKG, in that they absorb natural energy (making them senjutsu).--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 13:13, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

Yes, but were they specifically said to use senjutsu? Orochimaru was, for example. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 13:15, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

"While active, the cursed seal feeds off their chakra and replaces it with Orochimaru's own senjutsu chakra".--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 13:21, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

Both sources for that sentence are wrong, though. I have no clue why that information is in the article at all. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 13:28, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

I think we should all go back and double check what Fukasaku said classifies a Sage.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 13:12, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

I don't think there's a classification. Besides, Jugo was called sage in the databook, so even if he's not a perfect sage, he is a sage. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 13:15, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

Um Jiraiya is considered a Sage and he has not even mastered Sage Mode so I don't why everyone is making a big deal out of Jugo being called a Sage. --Rai 水 (talk) 13:30, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

What did I say about the argument over what is a sage? :P

But seriously, which sentences are wrong?--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 13:31, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

Of course Jiraiya has mastered Sage Mode. Otherwise, he wouldn't be able to use it.

The sentence BerserkerPhantom quoted is wrong, from what I know. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 15:31, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

Not to the point of having Perfect Sage Mode. --Rai 水 (talk) 15:35, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

But there is no more definition of a perfect Sage Mode than what Kabuto said. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 15:37, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

Hate to bring up a dead horse, but the merging of the two articles isn't a good thing. Juugo's transformation is much, much, much less powerful than the Sage Mode that Naruto, Hashirama, Kabuto, and Jiraiya learned. Plus it has nothing of the traits a Sage Mode user actually has. Just because the databook describes it as 'Brutal Sage' does not mean its the same thing at all. Sage Transformation has always been presented as the lesser, easier obtainable form of Sage Mode, not on the level of actual technique or an actual Sage. Its why Orochimaru chose Juugo as a work around.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 02:40, December 31, 2017 (UTC)

Not really, that's all just people's headcanon. Sage Transformation IS Sage Mode, all Sage Mode is, is an empowered state caused by Senjutsu chakra. How its's achieved doesn't matter, if through training or genetics. Not to mention there's no evidence that the physical boost achieved by means of Sage Transformation is inferior to the trained thing... Why should it be? The power of Sage Mode is dependant on the user's own power, the power increase of Kiba in Sage Mode would be less impressive than the boost it would give to an already exceptional individual.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 11:34, December 31, 2017 (UTC)

Jugo even says in the manga that Kabuto's transformation - that he himself called Sage Mode, iirc - is called Sage Transformation in Jugo's village and Juin Transformation in Orochimaru's experiments. It's just slightly different means to the same end. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 12:28, December 31, 2017 (UTC)

I think thats Jugo's lack of knowledge of what Kabuto did to modify his body. Kabuto explicitly said his transformation was Sage Mode, and he was using Jugo's Sage Transformation to stay in the form indefinitely due to Sage Transformation's ability to passively absorb Natural Energy, kind of like how Fukasaku and Shima are able to make Sage Mode indefinitely for Jiraiya. Sage Mode is only achieved when there's a balance of all three energies within the bodies of the user, which is a state that can only be achieved through training. Sage Transformation is wildly unbalanced and has demonstrated a far lesser degree of power. Sage Mode users in the manga have the power to fight, and beat the likes of Rinnegan Users and Tailed Beasts...Sage Transformation users like Jugo are easily fodderized by Killer B and A. The gap in power between the two states can't be overstated to claim they are the same thing.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 08:53, January 2, 2018 (UTC)

Sadly. we have lived too long to see an age where direct statements from source material are questioned and instead headcanon is inserted into articles, or at least demanded to be.

Anyway, for the last time, Sage Mode = state in which one's body is empowered with/by Senjutsu chakra. Basically the question to ask is: 'Is your form strengthened with Senjutsu chakra? Congratulations, you are in Sage Mode' is the answer, while Sage Transformation = physical transformation that occurs as a result of a certain clan body fluid's reaction to natural energy/senjutsu chakra. They also absorb natural energy passively. In other words, they achieve the state of 'empowered with/by Senjutsu chakra' thus Sage Mode, on their own, without a need for training or sitting down, just by their bodies absorbing natural energy and them then molding said chakra, with a side effect of physical transformation caused by the aforementioned body fluid. Their also go nuts for some reason.

Come on, it's not so complicated to comprehend.--Elve _[Mod]

^{Talk Page|Contribs} 14:17, December 31, 2017 (UTC)

Except this is not head cannon. The manga always had Sage Transformation a lesser form of Sage Mode. Sage Mode isn't a 'Is your form strengthened with Senjutsu Chakra'. No, its a form where the user achieves balance of Natural, Physical, and Spiritual energies within one's body. Jugo thinks Kabuto is in Sage Transformation since he's never seen Sage Mode at all before! If Sage Transformation and Sage Mode were the same thing, why didn't Jugo comment the same thing when he saw Naruto using Sage Mode? Basically, you're taking Jugo's ignorance of Sage Mode to make it seem like it's the exact same thing to Sage Transformation.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 08:58, January 2, 2018 (UTC)

And still you're wrong^^ Orochimaru can use senjutsu chakra, but can't enter Sage Mode. Jugo can utilise senjutsu chakra without entering Sage Transformation. And there's probably something going on w/ the Sound 5, too. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 08:10, January 1, 2018 (UTC)

Nah, no. Orochimaru is a case in of itself. I remember you saying yourself that the original Japanese wording is a little strange, having being unsure what was said. And when did this happen with Jugo? As far as I recall, in the very least, at least a small part of his body always transforms, face or hand.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 12:19, January 1, 2018 (UTC)

No, he is not. He said he used Senjutsu in his Juins and Kabuto said that Orochimaru did not have the body to attain Sage Mode. There's not a single thing that could be misunderstood here. As for Jugo, I'm not sure if you can call the markings Sage Transformation already, but he only shows the markings when he created the Senjutsu Susanoo. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 12:41, January 1, 2018 (UTC)

Didn't have =/= doesn't have. Makes no sense to use Senjutsu chakra but not Sage Mode, but that's another topic.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 13:46, January 1, 2018 (UTC)

Kabuto explicitly states Orochimaru never achieved Sage Mode. Thus he never achieved Sage Mode.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 08:54, January 2, 2018 (UTC)

That's not what he says. If I recall correctly, the wording is 'he had not yet obtained a strong enough body' funny how easily people can twist wording and insert their own meaning. Had not =/= never.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 14:11, January 3, 2018 (UTC)

The official translation is correct, though? "He couldn't become the perfect sage that I have become!" vs my "Not even Orochimaru had attained the requirements to be a perfect sage like me/as I am" vs another translator's "His body was not prepared for becoming a perfect sage...". There is no "yet" anywhere. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 14:23, January 3, 2018 (UTC)

My point is, that Orochimaru has taken over several bodies over the years. Just because Kabuto mentions about Orochimaru discovering the cave, training to become a sage but having failed to do so because he didn't have an adequate body, doesn't mean anything prevented him to keep trying later with different bodies. Not to mention Kabuto says Orochimaru failed to become a perfect sage, doesn't that imply he did in fact become a sage, just not a perfect one or something? I mean, his curse marks contain his senjutsu chakra, he was able to absorb said senjutsu chakra from Kabuto and even disable Kabuto's sage transformation, with no trouble. Only his hand turned scaly for a moment, he didn't become stone or anything.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 16:30, January 3, 2018 (UTC)

You should really read what I've written on this subject. Orochimaru is a sage, just not a perfect one like Kabuto. A perfect sage can enter Sage Mode, something Orochimaru can't do because he lacks the body (as explained by Kabuto). And yes, after his resurrection in NWW4, he might've found a body that was able to endure the sage teachings, but we don't know and there's no sign this happened, so there's no point in even considering that it might've happened. If you want to include it in your headcanon, though, go ahead, idc. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 16:40, January 3, 2018 (UTC)

So according to you, anyone who mixes natural energy with their chakra in balance to create Sage Chakra can use Sage Techniques, but only those who have high enough chakra levels/have strong body or whatever, enter Sage Mode?--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 19:52, January 3, 2018 (UTC)

Sage Mode has shown it has more requirements than what you're giving credit for, Elve. To achieve Sage Mode, Fukusaku explicitly states that you have to have 1. A extremely large chakra pool so your body won't get overwhelmed with the natural energy. 2. A balance between the three energies within the body. Orochimaru doesn't have Sage Mode, the manga explicitly said he never achieved it despite training (we don't even see him in an imperfect Sage Mode like Jiraiya). 3. Sensing Natural Energy for the balance is required and its why we have the step like the frog oil in the training. Kabuto even says that he's using Jugo's enzymes as a work around, creating the Cursed Seals which are of much lower quality than Sage Mode and aren't Senjutsu in an of themselves when they activate. And Sage Transformation again has so many different properties compared to Sage Mode (the berserk state, the body modifications, the lower ability of the user compared to a Sage Mode user, etc) that despite being similar, you can't claim they are the same. --SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 20:01, January 3, 2018 (UTC)

No, not according to me. According to the manga. Why do people always seem to think that what I'm saying is my opinion? I'm not arguing anything here, I'm educating. I mean, you wouldn't ask your maths teacher if he thinks that 2+2=4, right? • Seelentau 愛 ^議 21:05, January 3, 2018 (UTC)

Reference to where it says that someone that can't use Sage Mode may still use Sage Techniques please.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 18:20, January 4, 2018 (UTC)

...?????????? Orochimaru can mould senchakra, wtf. Did you read the manga??? Lemme guess, your next "argument" is going to be that Orochimaru might've learned to use Sage Mode and thus is not an acceptable example? Holy shit. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 20:32, January 4, 2018 (UTC)

Stillness

In order to gather enough natural energy to initiate the transformation into Sage Mode, the user must remain perfectly still, leaving them vulnerable. Users have at times been shown entering Sage Mode without this preparation.[8][9]

I think example(s) of bolded is needed.

Because the user needs to move during combat, the senjutsu chakra cannot be replenished, which means the user can't stay within this state for extended periods of time. Naruto states it is possible to lengthen the time limit

This is true and at the same time false. It is possible to cheat. A person needs to be perfectly still but that does not apply to his footing. In his reference frame he needs to be still but not to the observer's. This is seen when hashirama uses his dragon jutsu and when naruto is in tail beast mode. So in a sense sage mode, no matter how masterful one is, is an incomplete technique as long as one doesn't have jutsu that allows mobility (like susanoo).Rizgubi (talk) 20:23, June 23, 2017 (UTC)

No need for examples, references are there for a reason, and the very next session in the article is about countering the disadvantages. Hashirama in the dragon and Tailed Beast Mode Naruto are still still. It's a technicality more than a cheat. The restriction is the user moving, not the user being moved. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:18, June 23, 2017 (UTC)

Sage Mode Designs

So I've been looking back at footages of Sage Modes, and came across an interesting find. Each user of Sage Mode has their unique appearance, similar to how Mangekyo Sharingan works. We can ignore the obvious ones (Hashi, Kabuto), and let's talk about Naruto, Minato, and Jiraiya.

Both Naruto and Jiraiya achieved an imperfect form, but they both look different, with Naruto's having a thin orange ring around his eyes, and Jiraiya having a thick red ring around his eyes, with the additional hook towards the nose. It suggests that if Jiraiya were to master Sage Mode, it would look different to Naruto's in terms of shape and colour.

Minato's Sage Mode, while looks identical to Naruto's, actually has a different colour. I've looked at scenes where both Naruto and Minato went Sage Mode during the war, as the colour of the battlefield changes the colour tones of everything, including the colours of the Sage Mode. By using Naruto's normal Sage Mode colour, and their hair colour as a reference, it's possible to change the battlefield colour tone back to a normal state, which I did so with Minato's. The result is that Minato's Sage Mode colour is actually a type of red, like the red on his haori. I also compared the two red colours in the same frame of a scene, and they are extremely close if not identical.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that each Sage Mode user has their own unique design, which is worth mentioning on the page, as well as showing images of each user (Minato is the only one missing). It also makes sense, as no two toads at Mount Myoboku looks the same. Georgio722 (talk) 04:30, September 12, 2017 (UTC)

Yeah no. You've harped on imperfect forms before, a minor change in colour that can reliably be attributed to many other things is nothing compared to MS designs which actually are different by design, and all the rest you said is pure speculation. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:49, September 12, 2017 (UTC)

Sage Mode changes DNA

Something else worth mentioning, is that by learning Sage Mode, it changes the user genetically in some way. For example, Naruto hated eating bugs before learning Sage Mode, but after that it actually tasted good. It could be due to the toad oil that got rubbed into Naruto, which gave Naruto toad characteristics genetically, but that's more of a speculation. Georgio722 (talk) 04:30, September 12, 2017 (UTC)

Pointless speculation. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:49, September 12, 2017 (UTC)

Can you tell me what type of information is worth mentioning? Georgio722 (talk) 09:25, September 17, 2017 (UTC)

When did Naruto say he likes bugs? In any case people grow accustomed to new "foods" all the time. Are their DNA being changed?--Cerez365^(talk) 11:15, September 17, 2017 (UTC)

I guess saying that it changes DNA is a bit too far. But when Naruto first went to Mount Myoboku, he hated the food, but after he managed to get an imperfect Sage Mode, he actually liked the food. I mean, it's hard to get accustomed to the food when it's only his second time having it right? Don't remember the episode number though. Georgio722 (talk) 03:29, September 23, 2017 (UTC)