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== Structure of the article ==
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== Kabuto's image ==
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Wouldn't it make more sense to replace it with one that actually shows his eyes? His glasses obscure them on the one that's used at the present.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:59, September 22, 2014 (UTC)
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:Bump--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 09:28, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::Do you have an image in mind? [[User:SusanooUnleashed|SusanooUnleashed]] ([[User talk:SusanooUnleashed|talk]]) 11:40, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Something that shows a better close-up of his face, in particular the eyes, without that nerdy glasses reflection.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 12:23, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
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::::How about [[:File:Suigetsu hides.png|this one]]? Or we could make version of the one on the right without Suigetsu in it and use that one.--[[User:Neffyarious|Neffyarious]] ([[User talk:Neffyarious|talk]]) 12:49, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Is [[:File:Kabuto Sage Mode.png|this image]] appropriate? --[[User:Sarutobii2|Sarutobii2]] ([[User talk:Sarutobii2|talk]]) 13:48, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::@Sarutobii, that one is great. EDIT: can you take the same shot but in a HD resolution? thanks--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 14:27, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::::It's already a 720p upload. I'm going to put it in the article.--[[File:Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg|15px]] [[User:JOA20|'''JOA''']][[User talk:JOA20|''20'']] 14:44, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
   
If you look at Kabuto's Sage Mode, it's impossible to distinguish between:
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I guess ur right, but the old one was of higher resolution--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 16:17, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
* the actual Snake Sage Mode
 
* Juugo's abilities
 
* Orochimaru's abilities
 
* Suigetsu's abilities
 
* Karin's abilities
 
Kabuto's sensing prowess is a combination of Sage Mode and Karin's abilities. Kabuto's healing is a combination of Orochimaru's and Karin's abilities. The ability to change your body exists with Juugo's, Orochimaru's, and Suigetsu's abilities. The way Kabuto looks is a combination of Sage Mode, Juugo's DNA and Orochimaru's DNA.
 
   
Given all that, wouldn't it be a much better idea to get rid of the heading "Snake Sage Mode" and use the heading "Kabuto's Sage Mode"? You could even extend it to the whole article:
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== Orochimaru ==
# General description of Sage Mode
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When fighting Sage Mode Kabuto, Sasuke mentions that Orochimaru used imperfect Sage Mode. Also, he was said by Kabuto to have learned how to use it, only not being able to use it because he didn't have the right body. Orochimaru's imperfect Sage Mode that Sasuke referred to is probably his "Great White Serpent" form, which has the same eyes that Kabuto has when he goes into Sage Mode.--[[User:Neffyarious|Neffyarious]] ([[User talk:Neffyarious|talk]]) 13:31, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
# Description of Jiraiya's Sage Mode
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:No, that form was a result of genetic experimentation, but I agree Orochimaru is a user--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:48, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
# Description of Naruto's Sage Mode
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::I also agree that he is a user since it was stated but that form was said to be his true form that he obtained from long years of experiments done on himself. [[User:Munchvtec|Munchvtec]] ([[User talk:Munchvtec|talk]]) 14:00, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
# Description of Kabuto's Sage Mode
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:::Sage Mode is a state that results from Senjutsu chakra. Orochimaru can produce and absorb Senjutsu chakra, meaning he can use Sage Mode. Just because his host bodies can't doesn't mean he shouldn't be listed, after all, he learned Senjutsu before he transferred for the first time and absorbed Senjutsu chakra from Kabuto while having his own body.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:08, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
It would also make it easier to turn the lists in this article into proper paragraphs.--[[User:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis]] ([[User talk:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|talk]]) 18:09, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
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::::He isn't a user. Kabuto said that Orochimaru was unable to use Sage Mode. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau ]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|]]</sup> 14:45, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::He said that Orochimaru couldn't find a suitable host body to withstand Sage Mode, not that he didn't learn it and couldn't use it with his own body, since he obviously could, otherwise how would he produce and absorb senjutsu chakra?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:10, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::One doesn't have to be in Sage Mode to make use of senjutsu chakra (if you did, Madara taking Hashirama's chakra and not turning to stone wouldn't be at thing) one doesn't automatically enter Sage Mode by having access to senjutsu chakra. Now that being said, Orochimaru may know ''how'' to enter Sage Mode but if he couldn't ever actually do it then he can't use it.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Eye of Rikudō.svg|30px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 15:15, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::::Then how does one enter Sage Mode besides molding Senjutsu chakra? Because from what we have seen, it happens just like that, no activation needed. Naruto deactivated his clones who had gathered natural energy and molded Senjutsu chakra, having their chakras return to his real body and boom! Sage Mode happens, there's no hand seal or anything. And Madara didn't turn into stone because he could control said chakra according to his own words--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:21, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::::I agree with @TU3 in this one, Orochimaru might know everything about Sage Mode and its procedure but Kabuto clearly said that he wasn't able to use it. I could make a research about planes and how to fly them but if I have never flown one, I'm not a pilot, I don't know if that's a good example of my point. I believe that what @TU3 was trying to say is that being able to use senjutsu chakra is not equal to be in Sage Mode, like Jugo for example. So, I don't think Orochimaru is a user. [[User:Leo Hatake|<span style="color:MidnightBlue; font-family:'Harrington'; font-size:20px;">Leo</span>]][[User Talk:Leo Hatake|<span style="color:DarkGreen; font-family:'Harrington'; font-size:20px">Hatake</span>]] 16:07, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:But Jugo IS using Sage Mode, that being Sage Transformation, I brought that up many times. And Orochimaru doesn't only know about Senjutsu, he can produce Senjutsu chakra and absorb it. There's no evidence at all that Sage Mode is anything else but having Senjutsu chakra flow thorough your body--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:35, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::I don't see Jugo listed as a user, so Orochimaru is not listed as a user. Simple as that. [[User:Leo Hatake|<span style="color:MidnightBlue; font-family:'Harrington'; font-size:20px;">Leo</span>]][[User Talk:Leo Hatake|<span style="color:DarkGreen; font-family:'Harrington'; font-size:20px">Hatake</span>]] 16:41, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::@Leo please stop trying to end the discussion short.
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:::@elve, i believe what you are saying because it's true...there is nothing that states that senjutsu is anything else. [[User:Munchvtec|Munchvtec]] ([[User talk:Munchvtec|talk]]) 16:42, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::::@Leo, because it's a mistake Jugo isn't listed that I would like corrected. Sage Transformation is Sage Mode with mutating bodily fluids as extra, that's all. Not having Jugo listed is like crediting someone with Lightning Release Shadow Clone but not Shadow Clone Technique. And anyone is yet to show that Sage Mode is anything but Senjutsu chakra flowing through their bodies, because all the manga says and shows just that--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:46, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Jesus Christ. The manga states that Orochimaru can not enter Sage Mode. I don't give a fuck about the reason he couldn't or what the difference between using Senjutsu chakra and Sage Mode is. He could not enter Sage Mode so he won't be listed as a user. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 16:50, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::Alright man calm done. [[User:Munchvtec|Munchvtec]] ([[User talk:Munchvtec|talk]]) 16:51, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::::@Munchvtec What? Is it wrong to end a discussion short? Sorry if I'm not used to the long, unnecessary, and endless debates that is placed around here. It Is better to conclude a discussion short and clear with facts, that continue and reach a discussion that only will contain theories, assumptions, speculations and resentments between users.
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:::::::@Elveonora, the Jugo as user is another discussion, if you want open that can, you are free to do it but here we are talking about Orochimaru. Orochimaru is not listed because Kabuto mentioned that he didn't use it, and if you make that Jugo is listed as a user, then, I will in your path, otherwise, I'm not. [[User:Leo Hatake|<span style="color:MidnightBlue; font-family:'Harrington'; font-size:20px;">Leo</span>]][[User Talk:Leo Hatake|<span style="color:DarkGreen; font-family:'Harrington'; font-size:20px">Hatake</span>]] 16:59, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:No, it doesn't say that, it says he couldn't find suitable host bodies for Sage Mode, that's not the same as saying "he can't use Sage Mode". Imagine that if Sasuke were to use Fushi Tensei on Naruto for an example, he wouldn't be able to use Sharingan anymore, most probably. So your logic would be to remove Sasuke as Sharingan user because he could no longer use it in new body. I insist that Orochimaru can use Sage Mode with his own body without a host, there's no reason to think otherwise.
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:I find it highly hypocritical that you choose to be "logical" when it comes to one topic, but chooses to be ignorant about another. And if you don't give a fuck then don't comment. Unless I somehow missed a manga page or databook entry that say there's something else to Sage Mode besides getting empowered by Senjutsu chakra, then there isn't, the burden of proof lies on you--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:03, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::He could not use Sage Mode because he did not have a suitable host body. So why would you label him as a user when he couldn't use it? And the very fact that Orochimaru can gather natural energy but not use Sage Mode, proves that there's a difference. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 17:21, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::the same reason we list kakashi as being able to use those kamui chidori and shuriken jutsu's even though he can't anymore. [[User:Munchvtec|Munchvtec]] ([[User talk:Munchvtec|talk]]) 17:22, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::::@Seel, hasn't he got a suitable body to use Sage Mode as you say OR he could use Sage Mode, but couldn't '''since''' he started using Fushi Tensei, because host bodies couldn't handle it. You say he needs a good host bodies in order to use Sage Mode, I say host bodies are actually what prevents him from using Sage Mode, Kabuto's statement can be interpreted either way and the latter makes more sense to me--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:25, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::<nowiki>*sigh*</nowiki> I believe you should first think a little bit your words but well, I will try to answer your "burden of proof". ''It says he couldn't find suitable host bodies for Sage Mode, that's not the same as saying "he can't use Sage Mode''. Man, is clear like water, of course that it's the same, if you don't have one of the requirement of something, you are not able to use it. In the research of Orochimaru, he discovered that he needed a suitable body to use the Sage Mode, but, he didn't have it, so he's not a user. ''So your logic would be to remove Sasuke as Sharingan user because he could no longer use it in new body'' Of course not, that's ridiculous even to say it, of course that we are not going to remove a Sasuke as sharingan user because he had used it a lot of times. In Orochimaru side, Kabuto said that Orochimaru wasn't able to use it and Orochimaru has never been shown using it (and using the argument that yes was shown using it because he uses senjutsu doesn't apply until you settle the Jugo stuff). ''I insist that Orochimaru can use Sage Mode with his own body without a host'' Totally correct, but he wasn't shown using it, so, no. [[User:Leo Hatake|<span style="color:MidnightBlue; font-family:'Harrington'; font-size:20px;">Leo</span>]][[User Talk:Leo Hatake|<span style="color:DarkGreen; font-family:'Harrington'; font-size:20px">Hatake</span>]] 17:28, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::Wait, so do you agree or disagree that hostless Orochimaru can use Sage Mode? Because if you agree, then I'm clueless why you oppose him getting listed, wasn't seen using isn't an argument, because neither was Tobirama seen using Edo Tensei--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:30, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::::The raw says "But... he hadn't yet found a body that could endure it (Jugo's power)". • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 17:33, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::::Hadn't yet? That means he did find it eventually? Unless I'm having English grammar block at the moment :P--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:39, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:hadn't yet means that he has not "yet" found a host though he eventually could. [[User:Munchvtec|Munchvtec]] ([[User talk:Munchvtec|talk]]) 17:43, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::If Orochimaru didn't find one ever, Kabuto would have used "hasn't found" rather than hadn't, because saying "hadn't found something that could" gives vibe that "he did find it eventually" unless Kabuto used had because he had thought Orochimaru to be dead--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:47, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::no it doesn't. hadn't means had not while hasn't means has not. their essentially the same word. [[User:Munchvtec|Munchvtec]] ([[User talk:Munchvtec|talk]]) 17:49, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Ugh, I'm not arguing about hasn't = has not and hadn't = had not, but usage of hadn't instead of hasn't--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:51, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Some people are really persistent. I agree that hostless Orochimaru could learn the Sage Mode because Kabuto imply so, but I disagree listed him because one thing is to know that one person is able to do something in certain circumstance and other thing is listed him being able to use something that is unable to use right now. Like @Muchvtec said, he eventually might will be able to use it, and when that happens, we are going to listed him, otherwise, no. Please, just accept it and stop making arguments related with the "vibe" that deliver the characters. I'm done with this topic. [[User:Leo Hatake|<span style="color:MidnightBlue; font-family:'Harrington'; font-size:20px;">Leo</span>]][[User Talk:Leo Hatake|<span style="color:DarkGreen; font-family:'Harrington'; font-size:20px">Hatake</span>]] 17:52, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::At the time Orochimaru discovered the cave, he did not have a body that could handle the power of Jugo's clan. We don't know if he found one later or not, but that is irrelevant. The only statement about Orochimaru is that he couldn't use it. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 17:54, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::::Excuse me my limited knowledge of English then, but the wording "he hadn't found something that could" means he did find something that can later on, unless I failed a class or two :P--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:57, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:@Seel, what's the sentence before "he hadn't found body could" part?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:11, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::Bump, nicely please :P The context is important--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 10:28, September 25, 2014 (UTC)
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:::@elveo, hadn't means he had not found one. though i agree he could use sage mode he just simply "had not". [[User:Munchvtec|Munchvtec]] ([[User talk:Munchvtec|talk]]) 11:55, September 25, 2014 (UTC)
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::::The meaning of had not is dependent on the previous sentence, because the way it's placed in that sentence alone gives it meaning that he hadn't found a body before he actually did later on, word order and context are important in English.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:42, September 25, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::I think he atleast "sage" by being able utilise senchakra/ [[User:Rage gtx|Rage gtx]] ([[User talk:Rage gtx|talk]]) 14:14, September 25, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::Pretty please Seel? All the sentences in relation to Orochimaru and Sagehood :P--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 13:17, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::::um...wow you must really want this to happen elveo. ive "never" seen you beg lol. but anyways yeah please seel-san. [[User:Munchvtec|Munchvtec]] ([[User talk:Munchvtec|talk]]) 13:20, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::::There's only what I said above. Also, you won't change your opinion anyway. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 13:22, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
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:We can't seem to come to a consensus, so what do we do?--[[User:Neffyarious|Neffyarious]] ([[User talk:Neffyarious|talk]]) 14:51, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
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::Found the full dialogue myself... Kabuto indeed says there that Orochimaru wanted to master it but needed a body which he didn't have, so according to Kabuto, Orochimaru isn't a user. But then again, I think Kabuto is wrong, but that's just me. I don't see how someone who can't use Sage Mode can absorb Sage Mode, mold Senjutsu chakra and not turn into stone, but whatever--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 15:07, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Because Sage Mode isn't a requirement of senjutsu chakra. Madara didn't have it, Obito didn't have it, Naruto used Six Paths Senjutsu in place of it (you can see he lacks the toad markings around his eyes), Jūgo's entire clan uses Sage Transformation, animals don't enter any mode whatsoever, as Fukasaku pointed out, they are already part of nature and use senjutsu naturally, and anyone with a curse mark (Anko, Sasuke, etc.) uses senjutsu through it. There are many ways for humans to preform senjutsu. Sage Mode is not, will not, and never has been the requirement. It is simply a heightened transformation that some users of Senjutsu can use to bolster their physical capabilities even further. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Rinnegan Sasuke.svg|20px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 15:29, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Except humans are animals in Naruto too, Fukasaku says so.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 16:02, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Not to mention the moment Naruto managed to balance energies into Senjutsu chakra, he entered Sage Mode, without being aware that he did so, therefore no special activation, it just happens. There's nothing more to it than Senjutsu chakra--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 10:28, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::Figured I'd point out that when Orochimaru de-activates Kabuto's Sage Mode by draining the chakra through his hand, his hand takes on the same cracked quality as Sage Mode Kabuto's skin. Don't know if that is significant.
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::::::Also as mentioned above, Kabuto says that the only reason that Orochimaru did not use Sage Mode was because his host body was too weak, that means that if he had a proper body he could use Sage Mode. We list Guruguru as a user of Mayfly purely because he is a White Zetsu, even though he has never used it, we list Sharingan as one of Kakashi's Kekki Genki, despite the fact that he no longer possess it, so why can't we list Orochimaru as a user of Sage Mode?--[[User:Neffyarious|Neffyarious]] ([[User talk:Neffyarious|talk]]) 11:34, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::::That's what I think, his host body that he had at the time limited him. I'm 99,99% positive Senjutsu equals Sage Mode no matter what anyone says, because that's exactly what is said and shown during Naruto's toad training, so Orochimaru's real body can use it, while his host bodies can't. In fact the reason the host bodies start to reject him after a while may be because they can't handle Senjutsu chakra.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 12:18, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
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Well, I guess that since Orochimaru utilises Senjutsu he can definitely be given the classification of a Sage. Also, Jugo should be given the Sage classification. But we still have not come to any conclusion as to whether or not to add Orochimaru to the Sage Mode page.--[[User:Neffyarious|Neffyarious]] ([[User talk:Neffyarious|talk]]) 04:21, October 5, 2014 (UTC)
   
As of my topic above, I disagree completely with the article the way it is now. Also Kabuto's sensing prowess being partially from Karin? Now then, that's a speculation. The way I get it, the only reason why Kabuto has physically changed is due to Orochimaru's DNA + Sage Transformation.
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Seems people can't come to an agreement about what being a "Sage" includes. Also people really should give themselves a favor and re-read/re-watch the whole Naruto Senjutsu training part, where it's made obvious that Senjutsu Chakra = Sage Mode.
And again, both Sage Modes grant equal advantages, there are no such things as "toad sm" and "snake sm" mentioned in the series--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 20:59, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
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Quoting Fukasaku: "too little natural energy, Sage Techniques won't work, too much and you start turning into a toad" then all Naruto does is manage to perfectly balance the 3 energies, with Fukasaku proclaiming that eye pigment is a sign of a true Sage. Naruto falls down from the pillar but doesn't hurt himself and Fukasaku explains that he is in Sage Mode, that's why it didn't hurt. There's no activation, Senjutsu Chakra makes you be in Sage Mode, that's why it's freaking called a '''mode'''. Further proven when Fukasaku explains how Senjutsu Chakra differs from ordinary chakra. He attributes to it what we do attribute to Sage Mode, pretty much saying Senjutsu Chakra in body = Sage Mode--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 10:01, October 5, 2014 (UTC)
   
:I saw your topic. We both agree that the article in its current state is bad. We agree that there is no such thing as Snake Sage Mode. And I think you agree with the structure I proposed, because you mentioned something similar.
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== Jugo ==
:About Karin. We know that Karin is good at sensing. We know that Kabuto has Karin's DNA. We don't know whether that influences Kabuto's sensing prowess in Sage Mode. It's just an argument '''against''' calling it Snake Sage Mode, and in favour of calling it Kabuto's Sage Mode.
 
:The article in its current form has 12 section headings for the main content! It has general information listed under Toad Sage Mode. It has irrelevant information listed in the usage section. It might as well not have an introduction. It mentions advantages in three sections. It mentions disadvantages for Toad Sage Mode that are actually disadvantages for everyone. It's a mess.
 
:It also ignores that we have essentially seen 4 different versions of Sage Mode. The basic one is the one we see when Fukasaku trains Naruto in Frog Kata, and has the disadvantage that you run out of sage chakra. That problem can be solved by fusing with Fukasaku and Shima as we've seen with Jiraiya (the 2nd version of Sage Mode). Naruto solves the problem with Shadow Clones, making it the 3rd version. Kabuto solves it with Juugo's DNA, making it the 4th version. But wouldn't guess that from the way the article is written.--[[User:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis]] ([[User talk:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|talk]]) 22:05, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
::That is incorrect. You're looking at Sage Mode as changing to a different version based on how it's used, but that's not right. We don't know about the Snake version of Sage Mode, , imperfect and perfect. Ma and Pa on your shoulders is just them using [[Amphibian Sage Technique]] to sit on their shoulder. That is not a different version of Sage Mode.
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Is there any reason why Jugo is not added as a user? Considering Sage Transformation has been added as a derived technique of Sage Mode so there's really no reason he shouldn't be. [[User:Victory9000|Victory9000]] ([[User talk:Victory9000|talk]]) 22:04, October 6, 2014 (UTC)
::Also, having subsections is not a problem. We are an encyclopedia, we chronicle information. If that information requires heading sections, then it gets heading sections.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 16:17, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
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:No, you got it wrong, man. Sage Transformation is NOT derived from Sage Mode. Yes, both use senjutsu chakra, but what Jugo transforms into is because of his clan's unnamed ability. They can passively absorb natural energy. A Sage Mode user is trained in absorbing natural energy, for Jugo, it was a genetic trait. Plus, if you want to get technical, IMO, Sage Mode is a type of Sage Transformation, given that those in Sage Mode have the limitation of having to stand still to absorb, while Jugo's clan passively absorb natural energy. Jugo is a Sage ''Transformation'' user, not a Sage ''Mode'' user. Sage Mode users have to train and learn (and have red markings around their eyes) how to absorb natural energy, that wasn't the case with Jugo and others who used Orochimaru's Juinjutsu. • [[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] {{Mod}} [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User talk:WindStar7125]] [[File:WindStar7125's Task.svg|20px|link=Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|]] 22:10, October 6, 2014 (UTC)
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::Sorry Windstar, but you've got it wrong. Sage Transformation is Sage Mode with x-men fluids. And Sage Mode isn't Sage Transformation, because there are no Jugo Clan's fluids. If what you say were true, Kabuto wouldn't be a Sage Mode user, because he uses Jugo's way.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 12:00, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
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:I never said Sage Mode being derived from Sage Transformation was true, I said "In my opinion (IMO)." Give me a break, man. Lol. • [[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] {{Mod}} [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User talk:WindStar7125]] [[File:WindStar7125's Task.svg|20px|link=Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|]] 12:09, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
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:Also, Kabuto was trained under Sage Mode by the White Sage Snake. He used Jugo's way to eliminate the setback of having to stand still like a normal Sage Mode. • [[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] {{Mod}} [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User talk:WindStar7125]] [[File:WindStar7125's Task.svg|20px|link=Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|]] 12:12, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
:::What Fukasaku explains about Sage Mode; what the difference is between perfect sage mode and imperfect sage mode; it's all applicable to Snake Sage Mode, because we haven't been told otherwise. They're all simply [[Sage Mode]]. Kabuto uses the benefits of [[Sage Transformation]] to overcome the same problem for which Naruto used Shadow Clones.
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During Naruto's training at frog mountain, all Sage Mode is was explained to be mixing physical energy, spiritual energy and natural energy, molding Senjutsu Chakra, that's a manga fact. By that definition any Senjutsu Chakra user would be Sage Mode user and Jugo uses Senjutsu. I'm yet to see any evidence contrary to that--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 12:15, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
:::Sage Mode on its own is only useful if you want to rearrange the stone statues of toads. Or if you can prepare Sage Mode in advance; ambush your enemy; and defeat him quickly before you run out of Sage Chakra. So yes, [[Sage Mode]]+[[Amphibian Sage Technique]] is a different version of Sage Mode, because it's far more practical than Sage Mode on its own. Without solutions like Amphibian Sage Technique, Shadow Clones and Sage transformation, all that's left of [[Sage Mode]] is an incomplete technique. So it's not just different uses; it's an incomplete technique with 3 different ways to make it complete.
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:There is a reason why this wiki has Sage Mode and Sage Transformation as two different things. Yes, both use Senjutsu chakra, but Sasuke isn't considered a Sage due to his Curse Mark Transformation. [[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] {{Mod}} [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User talk:WindStar7125]] [[File:WindStar7125's Task.svg|20px|link=Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|]] 12:21, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
:::So you're saying that heading sections like "advantages" and "disadvantages" are required? You're saying that headings that use the phrase "Snake Sage Mode" are required; even though that's not canon? You're reply ignores the basic fact that sections shouldn't be used if you only have one paragraph of information.
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::Lets not bring the iffy label "sage" into this. This is about Sage Mode. Using canon, can you disprove it being anything else but a state of body empowered by Senjutsu Chakra ? I don't think so, but be my guest--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 12:26, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
:::In the end this article shows that you can't keep adding information to it and hope it remains making sense. Sometimes you have to reorganise the information.--[[User:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis]] ([[User talk:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|talk]]) 20:19, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
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:::Sage Mode is the intentional absorbing of natural energy and finding a balance, only changing slightly, with the ability to perform Sage Art techniques. Sage Transformation is the passive absorbing of natural energy that is unbalanced and can lead to inconsistent transformations, more wild body transformations, with no sign of being able to preform Sage Arts.
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:::You may wish to ignore it, but there is a reason why Jiraiya and Naruto are considered "Sages" while Jugo is not. Being a sage means they can transform into Sage Mode at will and get specific techniques to use as well. Jugo's Sage Transformations essentially just give him the passive ability to just have natural energy, I have yet to see him actually weaponize it in any way.
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:::Tl;Dr; Sage Mode and Sage Transformation are similar but have a noticable difference between the two, one being on purpose thus making them a sage, the other uncontrolled making them "mutating monster man".--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Eye of Rikudō.svg|30px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:09, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
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::::So Kabuto isn't a Sage Mode user because his absorption is unintentional by your judgement. And no, Sage Transformation isn't the passive absorbing of natural energy that is unbalanced. Sage Transformation is what happens when Jugo molds Senjutsu Chakra, not the kekkei genkai itself and also has nothing to do with imbalance. Even if Jugo were to perfectly balance the Senjutsu Chakra, he still would use Sage Transformation, it occurs because of bodily fluids in his body.
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Not to mention Jiraiya's Senjutsu Chakra wasn't perfectly balanced and he still was a Sage Mode user. I'm quite sure that if Jugo were to go to magic animal kingdom place and be taught Sage Art, he could use them, it's not like you learn Sage Art from your arse.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 13:21, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
:::::Mistake number 1: Assuming things are the same when we are not told otherwise. We don't assume when we aren't told.
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@Ulti, I don't think your grasp of some of the terminology and concepts is correct, but thanks for your contribution anyway.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 13:48, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
:::::Mistake number 2: No, Sage Mode + Amphibian Sage Technique is ''not'' another version of Sage Mode. It's Sage Mode with two old toads merged to your shoulder. Naruto could go Sage Mode perfectly well by remaining still and gathering natural energy. The entire point of the two toads was so one can do so in combat. Naruto has gone into Sage Mode on and off perfectly multiple times during the war without the need of a clone (or just a clone of him do it instead of his actual body), still perfect Sage Mode.
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:Thank you, TU3. [[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] {{Mod}} [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User talk:WindStar7125]] [[File:WindStar7125's Task.svg|20px|link=Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|]] 16:51, October 8, 2014 (UTC)
:::::Clarification number 1: If they are required, then yes. They could also be moved into paragraph format, but I feel it's easier to have them in a listed format, that way one wants to know what the disadvantages of Sage Mode is, one just has to go to the article, click the header for disadvantages, and wow look there it is.
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::1)Edits go at the ''end'' WindStar7125.
:::::In the end, the issue I'm having is your belief that there are random versions of Sage Mode when, as of now, we are aware of there only being two and that's the difference between Toad and Snake. Yes, while the name may not be canon, the fact that a perfect Snake Sage has different properties than a Toad Sage is notable (Naruto is a perfect Toad Sage, the only differences is the pigment around his eyes. Meanwhile Kabuto is a perfect Snake Sage, and he gained ''a lot'' of snake features.)--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 20:42, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
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::2) Don't get smug with me Elvenora. I know exactly what I'm talking about, I'm just not making sweeping assumptions to make myself look smart. Jugo's passively absorbing natural energy and transforms into wild and out there forms. That isn't Sage Mode. Naruto purposely gathers natural energy and balances to the point where he doesn't die. That is Sage Mode. The two are similar but not one in the same, so you can now stop going into every discussion trying your damnest to make it so. Because damn if you want them to be the same so bad, why aren't you arguing that the two articles be merged and make Jugo a sage? Exactly.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Eye of Rikudō.svg|30px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 17:04, October 8, 2014 (UTC)
   
@Ultimate, those are physical/visual differences, there are none in benefits. Also the former might be only due to sage transformation/jugo's dna/orochimaru's dna and not a common result--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:10, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
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Merger would be wrong, because non-Jugo junkies aren't using Sage Transformation, but I wouldn't exactly oppose a section in Sage Mode article about Sage Transformation, just like we mention Six Paths Sage Technique in Chakra Mode etc.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 17:33, October 8, 2014 (UTC)
   
@TheUltimate3
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Really, TU3? I've seen ''many'' who don't put it at the end... but I guess I got caught. Oh well, I'm doing a good job of making a fool of myself on this topic, lol. • [[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] {{Mod}} [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User talk:WindStar7125]] [[File:WindStar7125's Task.svg|20px|link=Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|]] 17:55, October 8, 2014 (UTC)
   
Mistake 1 = Assuming things are different when we have no information that says otherwise. Which means we can only look at what the manga has given us, and that's ONE Sage Mode.
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== Ma and Pa ==
   
Mistake 2 = The whole point of Sage Mode is that it's useless in combat UNLESS
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Do they really use Sage Mode? I realise they thought Naruto how to do it and all, but don't all summons use senjutsu to begin with? When humans use Sage Mode, they change their appearances, etc. It's an actual mode. For summons it appears to be just their default means of combat, and we know senjutsu are harmonious but not necessarily mutually inclusive.--[[User:Reliops|Reliops]] ([[User talk:Reliops|talk]]) 14:38, November 2, 2014 (UTC)
* you arrive at the battle already in Sage Mode (like Naruto did against Pain); or
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:Not this again... let me ask you: why shouldn't they?--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 14:44, November 2, 2014 (UTC)
* you manage to buy yourself some time to get into Sage Mode (like the clumsy toad did for Jiraiya; like the Alliance did for Naruto; and which Kurama's Chakra Cloak did for Naruto)
 
and even then you have to make sure that:
 
* you either beat your opponent '''before''' you drop out of Sage Mode; or
 
* you find a solution to the problem that you can't gather natural energy while moving.
 
Buying the time to get into Sage Mode is the easy problem. Trying to maintain Sage Mode is the difficult problem, and without a solution it's useless for combat purposes.
 
 
Mistake 3 = If you want to see Sage Mode as nothing more than gathering natural energy and mixing it to create Sage Chakra which would lead to Sage Mode, than the article shouldn't need any of the other information. You could pretty much copy and past Fukasaku's explanation to Naruto into this article and lock the page. All the other information should then be moved to the appropriate character pages. If you're going to argue a certain position, at least draw the logical conclusion from it.
 
 
Clarification number 1 = We are aware of 3 schools of teaching; 3 schools that teach Sage Mode. We now know that the Toads teach Sage Mode and that the Snakes teach Sage Mode. We were never told that these were *different* Sage Modes. The only thing they might teach different are the ways to use Sage Mode, and their preferred solutions to some of the problems associated with Sage Mode.
 
 
Clarification number 2 = We haven't been shown what the Snakes teach. We don't even know how a person that has been taught Sage Mode by the Snakes looks like. What we have seen is the end result of: (a) the Sage Mode as taught by the Snakes; and (b) a shitload of DNA modifications done by Kabuto himself. In fact, Kabuto's Sage Mode could be seen as a hybrid of [[Sage Mode]] and [[Sage Transformation]] with no answers to questions like: (i) What are the benefits of that combination?; (ii) What are the drawbacks of that combination?; and (iii) How would such a combination change the looks of someone in Sage Mode as taught by the Snakes?.
 
 
In the end Kabuto's Sage Mode is exactly the same as [[Sage Mode]]+[[Amphibian Sage Technique]] but with the added problem that we can't distinguish between the two. You're drawing the illogical conclusion that one is a different version of Sage Mode while the other is not, based on the same facts and using the same arguments. The only thing we know for sure is that perfect sage mode taught by the Snakes will lead to a different pigmentation around the eyes, though we don't know why and how the pigmentation becomes different. We haven't been told that Sage Mode taught by the Snakes will lead to different properties (e.g. speed and strength) in Sage Mode.
 
 
What we disagree about is basically this:
 
* Sage Mode = impractical Sage Mode as Fukasaku taught it to Naruto before trying the [[Amphibian Sage Technique]] and failing
 
* Sage Mode = impractical Sage Mode plus ways to make Sage Mode usable
 
Either way, the article needs rewriting to make it clear.--[[User:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis]] ([[User talk:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|talk]]) 23:31, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
I almost completely agree with you, I'd rewrite the article myself, but I don't want to start an edit war. The way it's now is not only incorrect but confusing/misleading.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 01:25, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:Wait for others to chime in on opinions and thoughts. My largest issue with what is proposed is the idea that there are 4 different versions of Sage Mode based on if a toad is on your shoulder or not, but I don't have the patients to continue reading/responding to such incredibly long responses.
 
:Rewriting an article is a bigger task than a single section, wait for others to voice opinions before making a move.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 04:46, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
:::I hope that my analogy to ''incomplete technique versus completed technique'' helps with understanding what I mean when I used the word "version".--[[User:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis]] ([[User talk:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|talk]]) 19:11, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Not really a rewriting, just merging of sections, separating of others, cutting here and pasting there etc. also removal of speculation--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 05:16, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
How is this article confusing? I don't know how much this will help but as the article stands now I am fine with it. The only reason it is confusing to you guys is because you're taking things you don't have a clue about and adding them to the mix. It should be:
 
* Sage Mode-Toads
 
** mention all we know
 
*** Also make note of the perfect balance and imperfect balance that the two disciples have achieved
 
** acknowledge the traditional method (with a sage toad to aid in process)
 
*** also mention the way Naruto uses it (with clones)
 
* Sage Mode- Snakes
 
** '''Assume that everything Kabuto did then is a product of Sage Mode''' unless/until mentioned/told otherwise. Then annotations can be made.
 
All that information is represented on the articles, it's just that you have all gone too far in dissecting Kabuto's Sage Mode. I realise that the people who always have problems with the way articles are, are the ones that go off on tangents and want to jump the proverbial gun and we don't do that here. Once the information is available to us, where we can reference it, and have evidence then that's when we move, not before. I'm not sure if you guys understand or no, but this is a method that has to be used to streamline content on the wikia so we don't lose credibility in the information that is found here.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:05, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
The only thing I could advocate for regarding this page, is that the image in the infobox is no longer accurate and a neutral one, possibly just showing the mixing/balancing of natural energy would be better.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:09, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:@Cerez365...That assumption flies in the face of everything we've been shown in the manga. Kabuto's appearance was already changing when he put Orochimaru's DNA in himself. And everyone that uses a derivative of Juugo's abilities changes his appearance, just like Juugo himself does. Kabuto is using Sage Mode and Sage Transformation together, just like Jiraiya uses Sage Mode and [[Amphibian Sage Technique]] together. You can't just assume that everything Kabuto does is the result of Sage Mode, because it's explicitly said that it isn't. Why else would the DNA of Juugo, Karin and Suigetsu be mentioned?
 
 
:The structure should be:
 
:* Sage Mode
 
:** Mention all we know (basically everything that Fukasaku explained).
 
:*** Mention the existence perfect sage mode and imperfect sage mode.
 
:*** Mention the existence of 3 places where Sage Mode is taught, and that the pigmentation around the eyes show at which place you learned Sage Mode.
 
:*** Mention that most users have a method of making it more usable in combat.
 
:* Jiraiya's Sage Mode
 
:** Mention that Jiraiya is an imperfect sage, and that he uses the traditional method as taught by the toads to make Sage Mode usable in combat and refer to the article [[Amphibian Sage Technique]].
 
:*Naruto's Sage Mode
 
:** Mention that Naruto is a perfect Sage.
 
:** Mention that Naruto couldn't use the method taught by the toads and had to come up with his own solution: Shadow Clones (and how he used it in his battle with Pain, maybe).
 
:* Kabuto's Sage Mode
 
:** Mention that Kabuto learned Sage Mode from the Snakes; that he would therefore look more like a snake than a toad; and that it's unknown how a Sage would look in its pure Snake form.
 
:** Mention that Kabuto used Juugo's DNA and [[Sage Transformation]] to solve the same problem that Naruto used Shadow Clones for.
 
:** Mention how Kabuto infused himself with DNA from Karin and Suigetsu and refer to the relevant section in Kabuto's character article.
 
:That's a far more usable and canon compliant structure than the current article has. It also prevents unnecessary duplication of information (see advantages and disadvantages sections). It also allows contributors to compare a specific character's use of Sage Mode against the general characteristics of Sage Mode, instead of forcing a reader to compare and contrast various uses of Sage Mode against eachother.--[[User:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis]] ([[User talk:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|talk]]) 14:46, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
* Kabuto's appearance changed because Orochimaru's cells were fighting to take over Kabuto's body. That has nothing to do with Jūgo. It's akin to Hashirama's cells trying to turn Danzō into a tree, or else have them sprouting his face on his arm and Madara's chest, so you're wrong in that regard.
 
* It's not an assumption, it's lumping all the information together. I did not say they weren't factors into Kabuto's abilities but as this point, we're unable to discern what is what except for what has been told to us:
 
** How do you know that Kabuto is using Sage Transformation and not just using Jūgo's ability to passively absorb chakra? How do you know that that's simply how someone who uses ''snake'' Sage Mode is supposed to look?
 
** How do you know that Kabuto's been using Karin's Mind Eye of the Kagura (which is ridiculously impossible to steal via DNA) and just doesn't possess her ability to heal?
 
** As for Suigetsu, Kabuto was able to copy his [[Hydrification Technique]] and create the [[Body Fluid Shedding Technique]].
 
* There is no such thing as perfect and imperfect Sage Mode. These are terms that we engineered for compartmentalising sake all of which is already mentioned. Ergo, Naruto and Jiraiya's forms don't have to be separated any more than they are now.
 
* Kabuto's:
 
** You're assuming that's not what a "pure" Sage would look like. There's nothing to compare it to, so where are you forming your basis from? SPECULATION
 
** {{Quote|Kabuto assimilated the DNA of Jūgo to replicate his clan's ability to passively absorb natural energy, thus allowing him to continuously collect the energy even while moving.}}
 
** Information about the assimilation of DNA '''unrelated''' to his Sage Mode is mentioned in his article.
 
* Like I've said before, I personally see nothing wrong with the article's structure and the most I would change is a picture or two. We are supposed to chronicle '''what is said in the series''' not the foregone conclusions that we draw on our own.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 16:02, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
@Cerez365...You're committing quite a few strawman fallacies to "prove" that I'm wrong. Cut it out!
 
 
You insist on using the phrase "ability to passively absorb natural energy". Fine, substitute that every time I use the phrase [[Sage Transformation]]. It doesn't alter my argument, but you seem to ignore that part in favour of saying that I'm wrong. <s>(BTW, isn't Sage Transformation the name of Juugo's kekkei genkai?)</s>
 
 
You acknowledge that there are factors contributing to Kabuto's appearance and abilities. And yet you fail to draw logical conclusions from that; conclusions that are consistent with the manga.
 
# We know how a perfect toad sage looks like: perfectly human except for the pigmentation around the eyes. The logical conclusion is that it's the same for a perfect snake sage. Is that speculation? Perhaps, but the significant part is that it's '''less speculative than the opposite conclusion''' (which would be that a snake sage is supposed to look like Kabuto did).
 
# We know that quite a few things that Kabuto assimilated will change your appearance. Sage Mode is just one of several factors that change Kabuto's appearance. The logical conclusion is that we're seeing Kabuto's Sage Mode. The illogical conclusion is that we're seeing "Snake Sage Mode".
 
# The manga says that there are 3 places that teach Sage Mode. The manga doesn't say that there are 3 '''different''' Sage Modes corresponding to 3 '''different''' animals. The logical conclusion is that there is only '''one Sage Mode'''.
 
# The manga is pretty clear about the fact that Sage Mode needs '''something''' to make it useful in combat. It's why I referred to Sage Mode as an incomplete technique (as well as to clarify my use of the word "version"). The manga has shown us three ways:
 
## Sage Mode + [[Amphibian Sage Technique]]
 
## Sage Mode + [[Shadow Clone Technique]]
 
## Sage Mode + [[Sage Transformation|Jūgo's ability to passively absorb natural energy]]
 
Given this information '''from the manga''', it makes sense to treat the three times we've seen Sage Mode used in combat (the "completed" sage mode) just as important as the ("incomplete") Sage Mode.
 
 
You say that: ''We are supposed to chronicle what is said in the series not the foregone conclusions that we draw on our own.'' '''But that's exactly the problem with the current article.''' Calling it "Toad Sage Mode" and "Snake Sage Mode" emphasizes the personal interpretation of fans. Simply calling it "Jiraiya's Sage Mode", "Naruto's Sage Mode" and "Kabuto's Sage Mode" de-emphasizes any personal interpretation '''and allows us to emphasize what is actually said in the manga'''.--[[User:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis]] ([[User talk:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|talk]]) 19:03, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
I see no reason no reason to change the article. It's fine as is for me. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 21:27, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
@Omni,
 
* the intro is : "Sage Mode is the result of using natural energy along with a ninja's normal chakra to drastically empower all their abilities"
 
Should be: "Sage Mode is a special technique used by Sages of [[Mount Myōboku]] and [[Ryūchi Cave]] that empowers their abilities. Another legendary place known as [[Shikkotsu Forest]] also exists, but it's yet to appear along with it's inhabitants and a Sage representative"
 
Also as far as I know, Fukasaku for example isn't a ninja, so theoretically even a samurai could learn it or anyone who is skilled with chakra manipulation for that matter. My version sounds more appropriate as an intro imo.
 
The part about it's workings should be a solely separate section as there's no need to repeat some of the information twice, and Shinobi again should be changed into user/individual or something.
 
 
It's an assumption/speculation:
 
* That Naruto/Kabuto have different power-ups while it's the very same and only technique using the same natural energy from around them, the terms "snake sage mode/toad snake mode" are basically fanon, there's not even a slight hint that there are more versions and that the benefits they grant differ.
 
* That Kabuto uses perfect/imperfect Sage Mode (we don't know even if it's most likely perfect, but since there are other factors as Orochimaru and Jugo's DNA in the play, it should be called Kabuto's Sage Mode) so stating that horns and shit are a sign of a true snake sage is double speculative. EDIT: already changed/removed partially.
 
So in short, this is how I imagine it:
 
* intro/overview in a nutshell, my proposal
 
* usage/workings/mechanics describing what it is more in detail and containing information about both it's advantages and disadvantages
 
* forms, stating what a perfect and imperfect sages are
 
* users: "Naruto in Sage Mode, Jiraiya in Sage Mode, Kabuto in Sage Mode" with a picture of each representative and a short history about their training and a summary about their "differences and workarounds"--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 03:49, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Strawman fallacies? Friend when you're wrong, you're wrong. Sage Transformation is what happens to the clan members as a result of absorbing the natural energy. Use context clues and figure that out. All I was pointing out was that the info was reflected in the article. And again to address your list:
 
# Both Jiraiya and Naruto's use are mentioned and categorised
 
# Incorrect. The only thing that changed Kabuto appearance was what he took from Orochimaru ergo why Kabuto looked like that when he reabsorbed his "stuff" from Kabuto. If Kabuto had turned out looking like Kevin Levin, you would have had more of an argument. Without even adding the speculation that to think you could absorb a Senju clan descendant and not so much as change hair colour.
 
# The is not one sage mode. There is simple at least three different animals that learned how to absorb, balance and use Sage Mode. Why is this point even here in the first place?
 
# There is no need to me, to mention the different uses of Sage Mode outside said person's section. All the information is represented in the article and it is neither confusing nor lost, and believe me every time something like this comes up I use third party options from people not on the site.
 
In any case I'm done with this discussion, this seems like another of those lost causes/false alarms.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 06:22, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
 

Latest revision as of 14:44, November 2, 2014

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Kabuto's image Edit

Wouldn't it make more sense to replace it with one that actually shows his eyes? His glasses obscure them on the one that's used at the present.--Elveonora (talk) 11:59, September 22, 2014 (UTC)

Bump--Elveonora (talk) 09:28, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Do you have an image in mind? SusanooUnleashed (talk) 11:40, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
Something that shows a better close-up of his face, in particular the eyes, without that nerdy glasses reflection.--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 12:23, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
How about this one? Or we could make version of the one on the right without Suigetsu in it and use that one.--Neffyarious (talk) 12:49, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
Is this image appropriate? --Sarutobii2 (talk) 13:48, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
@Sarutobii, that one is great. EDIT: can you take the same shot but in a HD resolution? thanks--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 14:27, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
It's already a 720p upload. I'm going to put it in the article.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna JOA20 14:44, September 27, 2014 (UTC)

I guess ur right, but the old one was of higher resolution--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 16:17, September 27, 2014 (UTC)

Orochimaru Edit

When fighting Sage Mode Kabuto, Sasuke mentions that Orochimaru used imperfect Sage Mode. Also, he was said by Kabuto to have learned how to use it, only not being able to use it because he didn't have the right body. Orochimaru's imperfect Sage Mode that Sasuke referred to is probably his "Great White Serpent" form, which has the same eyes that Kabuto has when he goes into Sage Mode.--Neffyarious (talk) 13:31, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

No, that form was a result of genetic experimentation, but I agree Orochimaru is a user--Elveonora (talk) 13:48, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
I also agree that he is a user since it was stated but that form was said to be his true form that he obtained from long years of experiments done on himself. Munchvtec (talk) 14:00, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Sage Mode is a state that results from Senjutsu chakra. Orochimaru can produce and absorb Senjutsu chakra, meaning he can use Sage Mode. Just because his host bodies can't doesn't mean he shouldn't be listed, after all, he learned Senjutsu before he transferred for the first time and absorbed Senjutsu chakra from Kabuto while having his own body.--Elveonora (talk) 14:08, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
He isn't a user. Kabuto said that Orochimaru was unable to use Sage Mode. • Seelentau 愛 14:45, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
He said that Orochimaru couldn't find a suitable host body to withstand Sage Mode, not that he didn't learn it and couldn't use it with his own body, since he obviously could, otherwise how would he produce and absorb senjutsu chakra?--Elveonora (talk) 15:10, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
One doesn't have to be in Sage Mode to make use of senjutsu chakra (if you did, Madara taking Hashirama's chakra and not turning to stone wouldn't be at thing) one doesn't automatically enter Sage Mode by having access to senjutsu chakra. Now that being said, Orochimaru may know how to enter Sage Mode but if he couldn't ever actually do it then he can't use it.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō (talk) 15:15, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Then how does one enter Sage Mode besides molding Senjutsu chakra? Because from what we have seen, it happens just like that, no activation needed. Naruto deactivated his clones who had gathered natural energy and molded Senjutsu chakra, having their chakras return to his real body and boom! Sage Mode happens, there's no hand seal or anything. And Madara didn't turn into stone because he could control said chakra according to his own words--Elveonora (talk) 15:21, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
I agree with @TU3 in this one, Orochimaru might know everything about Sage Mode and its procedure but Kabuto clearly said that he wasn't able to use it. I could make a research about planes and how to fly them but if I have never flown one, I'm not a pilot, I don't know if that's a good example of my point. I believe that what @TU3 was trying to say is that being able to use senjutsu chakra is not equal to be in Sage Mode, like Jugo for example. So, I don't think Orochimaru is a user. LeoHatake 16:07, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
But Jugo IS using Sage Mode, that being Sage Transformation, I brought that up many times. And Orochimaru doesn't only know about Senjutsu, he can produce Senjutsu chakra and absorb it. There's no evidence at all that Sage Mode is anything else but having Senjutsu chakra flow thorough your body--Elveonora (talk) 16:35, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
I don't see Jugo listed as a user, so Orochimaru is not listed as a user. Simple as that. LeoHatake 16:41, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
@Leo please stop trying to end the discussion short.
@elve, i believe what you are saying because it's true...there is nothing that states that senjutsu is anything else. Munchvtec (talk) 16:42, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
@Leo, because it's a mistake Jugo isn't listed that I would like corrected. Sage Transformation is Sage Mode with mutating bodily fluids as extra, that's all. Not having Jugo listed is like crediting someone with Lightning Release Shadow Clone but not Shadow Clone Technique. And anyone is yet to show that Sage Mode is anything but Senjutsu chakra flowing through their bodies, because all the manga says and shows just that--Elveonora (talk) 16:46, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Jesus Christ. The manga states that Orochimaru can not enter Sage Mode. I don't give a fuck about the reason he couldn't or what the difference between using Senjutsu chakra and Sage Mode is. He could not enter Sage Mode so he won't be listed as a user. • Seelentau 愛 16:50, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Alright man calm done. Munchvtec (talk) 16:51, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
@Munchvtec What? Is it wrong to end a discussion short? Sorry if I'm not used to the long, unnecessary, and endless debates that is placed around here. It Is better to conclude a discussion short and clear with facts, that continue and reach a discussion that only will contain theories, assumptions, speculations and resentments between users.
@Elveonora, the Jugo as user is another discussion, if you want open that can, you are free to do it but here we are talking about Orochimaru. Orochimaru is not listed because Kabuto mentioned that he didn't use it, and if you make that Jugo is listed as a user, then, I will in your path, otherwise, I'm not. LeoHatake 16:59, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
No, it doesn't say that, it says he couldn't find suitable host bodies for Sage Mode, that's not the same as saying "he can't use Sage Mode". Imagine that if Sasuke were to use Fushi Tensei on Naruto for an example, he wouldn't be able to use Sharingan anymore, most probably. So your logic would be to remove Sasuke as Sharingan user because he could no longer use it in new body. I insist that Orochimaru can use Sage Mode with his own body without a host, there's no reason to think otherwise.
I find it highly hypocritical that you choose to be "logical" when it comes to one topic, but chooses to be ignorant about another. And if you don't give a fuck then don't comment. Unless I somehow missed a manga page or databook entry that say there's something else to Sage Mode besides getting empowered by Senjutsu chakra, then there isn't, the burden of proof lies on you--Elveonora (talk) 17:03, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
He could not use Sage Mode because he did not have a suitable host body. So why would you label him as a user when he couldn't use it? And the very fact that Orochimaru can gather natural energy but not use Sage Mode, proves that there's a difference. • Seelentau 愛 17:21, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
the same reason we list kakashi as being able to use those kamui chidori and shuriken jutsu's even though he can't anymore. Munchvtec (talk) 17:22, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
@Seel, hasn't he got a suitable body to use Sage Mode as you say OR he could use Sage Mode, but couldn't since he started using Fushi Tensei, because host bodies couldn't handle it. You say he needs a good host bodies in order to use Sage Mode, I say host bodies are actually what prevents him from using Sage Mode, Kabuto's statement can be interpreted either way and the latter makes more sense to me--Elveonora (talk) 17:25, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
*sigh* I believe you should first think a little bit your words but well, I will try to answer your "burden of proof". It says he couldn't find suitable host bodies for Sage Mode, that's not the same as saying "he can't use Sage Mode. Man, is clear like water, of course that it's the same, if you don't have one of the requirement of something, you are not able to use it. In the research of Orochimaru, he discovered that he needed a suitable body to use the Sage Mode, but, he didn't have it, so he's not a user. So your logic would be to remove Sasuke as Sharingan user because he could no longer use it in new body Of course not, that's ridiculous even to say it, of course that we are not going to remove a Sasuke as sharingan user because he had used it a lot of times. In Orochimaru side, Kabuto said that Orochimaru wasn't able to use it and Orochimaru has never been shown using it (and using the argument that yes was shown using it because he uses senjutsu doesn't apply until you settle the Jugo stuff). I insist that Orochimaru can use Sage Mode with his own body without a host Totally correct, but he wasn't shown using it, so, no. LeoHatake 17:28, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Wait, so do you agree or disagree that hostless Orochimaru can use Sage Mode? Because if you agree, then I'm clueless why you oppose him getting listed, wasn't seen using isn't an argument, because neither was Tobirama seen using Edo Tensei--Elveonora (talk) 17:30, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
The raw says "But... he hadn't yet found a body that could endure it (Jugo's power)". • Seelentau 愛 17:33, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Hadn't yet? That means he did find it eventually? Unless I'm having English grammar block at the moment :P--Elveonora (talk) 17:39, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
hadn't yet means that he has not "yet" found a host though he eventually could. Munchvtec (talk) 17:43, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
If Orochimaru didn't find one ever, Kabuto would have used "hasn't found" rather than hadn't, because saying "hadn't found something that could" gives vibe that "he did find it eventually" unless Kabuto used had because he had thought Orochimaru to be dead--Elveonora (talk) 17:47, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
no it doesn't. hadn't means had not while hasn't means has not. their essentially the same word. Munchvtec (talk) 17:49, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Ugh, I'm not arguing about hasn't = has not and hadn't = had not, but usage of hadn't instead of hasn't--Elveonora (talk) 17:51, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Some people are really persistent. I agree that hostless Orochimaru could learn the Sage Mode because Kabuto imply so, but I disagree listed him because one thing is to know that one person is able to do something in certain circumstance and other thing is listed him being able to use something that is unable to use right now. Like @Muchvtec said, he eventually might will be able to use it, and when that happens, we are going to listed him, otherwise, no. Please, just accept it and stop making arguments related with the "vibe" that deliver the characters. I'm done with this topic. LeoHatake 17:52, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
At the time Orochimaru discovered the cave, he did not have a body that could handle the power of Jugo's clan. We don't know if he found one later or not, but that is irrelevant. The only statement about Orochimaru is that he couldn't use it. • Seelentau 愛 17:54, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Excuse me my limited knowledge of English then, but the wording "he hadn't found something that could" means he did find something that can later on, unless I failed a class or two :P--Elveonora (talk) 17:57, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
@Seel, what's the sentence before "he hadn't found body could" part?--Elveonora (talk) 18:11, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Bump, nicely please :P The context is important--Elveonora (talk) 10:28, September 25, 2014 (UTC)
@elveo, hadn't means he had not found one. though i agree he could use sage mode he just simply "had not". Munchvtec (talk) 11:55, September 25, 2014 (UTC)
The meaning of had not is dependent on the previous sentence, because the way it's placed in that sentence alone gives it meaning that he hadn't found a body before he actually did later on, word order and context are important in English.--Elveonora (talk) 13:42, September 25, 2014 (UTC)
I think he atleast "sage" by being able utilise senchakra/ Rage gtx (talk) 14:14, September 25, 2014 (UTC)
Pretty please Seel? All the sentences in relation to Orochimaru and Sagehood :P--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 13:17, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
um...wow you must really want this to happen elveo. ive "never" seen you beg lol. but anyways yeah please seel-san. Munchvtec (talk) 13:20, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
There's only what I said above. Also, you won't change your opinion anyway. • Seelentau 愛 13:22, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
We can't seem to come to a consensus, so what do we do?--Neffyarious (talk) 14:51, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
Found the full dialogue myself... Kabuto indeed says there that Orochimaru wanted to master it but needed a body which he didn't have, so according to Kabuto, Orochimaru isn't a user. But then again, I think Kabuto is wrong, but that's just me. I don't see how someone who can't use Sage Mode can absorb Sage Mode, mold Senjutsu chakra and not turn into stone, but whatever--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 15:07, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
Because Sage Mode isn't a requirement of senjutsu chakra. Madara didn't have it, Obito didn't have it, Naruto used Six Paths Senjutsu in place of it (you can see he lacks the toad markings around his eyes), Jūgo's entire clan uses Sage Transformation, animals don't enter any mode whatsoever, as Fukasaku pointed out, they are already part of nature and use senjutsu naturally, and anyone with a curse mark (Anko, Sasuke, etc.) uses senjutsu through it. There are many ways for humans to preform senjutsu. Sage Mode is not, will not, and never has been the requirement. It is simply a heightened transformation that some users of Senjutsu can use to bolster their physical capabilities even further. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 15:29, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
Except humans are animals in Naruto too, Fukasaku says so.--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 16:02, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
Not to mention the moment Naruto managed to balance energies into Senjutsu chakra, he entered Sage Mode, without being aware that he did so, therefore no special activation, it just happens. There's nothing more to it than Senjutsu chakra--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 10:28, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
Figured I'd point out that when Orochimaru de-activates Kabuto's Sage Mode by draining the chakra through his hand, his hand takes on the same cracked quality as Sage Mode Kabuto's skin. Don't know if that is significant.
Also as mentioned above, Kabuto says that the only reason that Orochimaru did not use Sage Mode was because his host body was too weak, that means that if he had a proper body he could use Sage Mode. We list Guruguru as a user of Mayfly purely because he is a White Zetsu, even though he has never used it, we list Sharingan as one of Kakashi's Kekki Genki, despite the fact that he no longer possess it, so why can't we list Orochimaru as a user of Sage Mode?--Neffyarious (talk) 11:34, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
That's what I think, his host body that he had at the time limited him. I'm 99,99% positive Senjutsu equals Sage Mode no matter what anyone says, because that's exactly what is said and shown during Naruto's toad training, so Orochimaru's real body can use it, while his host bodies can't. In fact the reason the host bodies start to reject him after a while may be because they can't handle Senjutsu chakra.--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 12:18, September 27, 2014 (UTC)

Well, I guess that since Orochimaru utilises Senjutsu he can definitely be given the classification of a Sage. Also, Jugo should be given the Sage classification. But we still have not come to any conclusion as to whether or not to add Orochimaru to the Sage Mode page.--Neffyarious (talk) 04:21, October 5, 2014 (UTC)

Seems people can't come to an agreement about what being a "Sage" includes. Also people really should give themselves a favor and re-read/re-watch the whole Naruto Senjutsu training part, where it's made obvious that Senjutsu Chakra = Sage Mode. Quoting Fukasaku: "too little natural energy, Sage Techniques won't work, too much and you start turning into a toad" then all Naruto does is manage to perfectly balance the 3 energies, with Fukasaku proclaiming that eye pigment is a sign of a true Sage. Naruto falls down from the pillar but doesn't hurt himself and Fukasaku explains that he is in Sage Mode, that's why it didn't hurt. There's no activation, Senjutsu Chakra makes you be in Sage Mode, that's why it's freaking called a mode. Further proven when Fukasaku explains how Senjutsu Chakra differs from ordinary chakra. He attributes to it what we do attribute to Sage Mode, pretty much saying Senjutsu Chakra in body = Sage Mode--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 10:01, October 5, 2014 (UTC)

Jugo Edit

Is there any reason why Jugo is not added as a user? Considering Sage Transformation has been added as a derived technique of Sage Mode so there's really no reason he shouldn't be. Victory9000 (talk) 22:04, October 6, 2014 (UTC)

No, you got it wrong, man. Sage Transformation is NOT derived from Sage Mode. Yes, both use senjutsu chakra, but what Jugo transforms into is because of his clan's unnamed ability. They can passively absorb natural energy. A Sage Mode user is trained in absorbing natural energy, for Jugo, it was a genetic trait. Plus, if you want to get technical, IMO, Sage Mode is a type of Sage Transformation, given that those in Sage Mode have the limitation of having to stand still to absorb, while Jugo's clan passively absorb natural energy. Jugo is a Sage Transformation user, not a Sage Mode user. Sage Mode users have to train and learn (and have red markings around their eyes) how to absorb natural energy, that wasn't the case with Jugo and others who used Orochimaru's Juinjutsu. • WindStar7125 [Moderator] WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 22:10, October 6, 2014 (UTC)
Sorry Windstar, but you've got it wrong. Sage Transformation is Sage Mode with x-men fluids. And Sage Mode isn't Sage Transformation, because there are no Jugo Clan's fluids. If what you say were true, Kabuto wouldn't be a Sage Mode user, because he uses Jugo's way.--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 12:00, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
I never said Sage Mode being derived from Sage Transformation was true, I said "In my opinion (IMO)." Give me a break, man. Lol. • WindStar7125 [Moderator] WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 12:09, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
Also, Kabuto was trained under Sage Mode by the White Sage Snake. He used Jugo's way to eliminate the setback of having to stand still like a normal Sage Mode. • WindStar7125 [Moderator] WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 12:12, October 7, 2014 (UTC)

During Naruto's training at frog mountain, all Sage Mode is was explained to be mixing physical energy, spiritual energy and natural energy, molding Senjutsu Chakra, that's a manga fact. By that definition any Senjutsu Chakra user would be Sage Mode user and Jugo uses Senjutsu. I'm yet to see any evidence contrary to that--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 12:15, October 7, 2014 (UTC)

There is a reason why this wiki has Sage Mode and Sage Transformation as two different things. Yes, both use Senjutsu chakra, but Sasuke isn't considered a Sage due to his Curse Mark Transformation. • WindStar7125 [Moderator] WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 12:21, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
Lets not bring the iffy label "sage" into this. This is about Sage Mode. Using canon, can you disprove it being anything else but a state of body empowered by Senjutsu Chakra ? I don't think so, but be my guest--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 12:26, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
Sage Mode is the intentional absorbing of natural energy and finding a balance, only changing slightly, with the ability to perform Sage Art techniques. Sage Transformation is the passive absorbing of natural energy that is unbalanced and can lead to inconsistent transformations, more wild body transformations, with no sign of being able to preform Sage Arts.
You may wish to ignore it, but there is a reason why Jiraiya and Naruto are considered "Sages" while Jugo is not. Being a sage means they can transform into Sage Mode at will and get specific techniques to use as well. Jugo's Sage Transformations essentially just give him the passive ability to just have natural energy, I have yet to see him actually weaponize it in any way.
Tl;Dr; Sage Mode and Sage Transformation are similar but have a noticable difference between the two, one being on purpose thus making them a sage, the other uncontrolled making them "mutating monster man".--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō (talk) 13:09, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
So Kabuto isn't a Sage Mode user because his absorption is unintentional by your judgement. And no, Sage Transformation isn't the passive absorbing of natural energy that is unbalanced. Sage Transformation is what happens when Jugo molds Senjutsu Chakra, not the kekkei genkai itself and also has nothing to do with imbalance. Even if Jugo were to perfectly balance the Senjutsu Chakra, he still would use Sage Transformation, it occurs because of bodily fluids in his body.

Not to mention Jiraiya's Senjutsu Chakra wasn't perfectly balanced and he still was a Sage Mode user. I'm quite sure that if Jugo were to go to magic animal kingdom place and be taught Sage Art, he could use them, it's not like you learn Sage Art from your arse.--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 13:21, October 7, 2014 (UTC)

@Ulti, I don't think your grasp of some of the terminology and concepts is correct, but thanks for your contribution anyway.--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 13:48, October 7, 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, TU3. • WindStar7125 [Moderator] WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 16:51, October 8, 2014 (UTC)
1)Edits go at the end WindStar7125.
2) Don't get smug with me Elvenora. I know exactly what I'm talking about, I'm just not making sweeping assumptions to make myself look smart. Jugo's passively absorbing natural energy and transforms into wild and out there forms. That isn't Sage Mode. Naruto purposely gathers natural energy and balances to the point where he doesn't die. That is Sage Mode. The two are similar but not one in the same, so you can now stop going into every discussion trying your damnest to make it so. Because damn if you want them to be the same so bad, why aren't you arguing that the two articles be merged and make Jugo a sage? Exactly.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō (talk) 17:04, October 8, 2014 (UTC)

Merger would be wrong, because non-Jugo junkies aren't using Sage Transformation, but I wouldn't exactly oppose a section in Sage Mode article about Sage Transformation, just like we mention Six Paths Sage Technique in Chakra Mode etc.--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 17:33, October 8, 2014 (UTC)

Really, TU3? I've seen many who don't put it at the end... but I guess I got caught. Oh well, I'm doing a good job of making a fool of myself on this topic, lol. • WindStar7125 [Moderator] WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 17:55, October 8, 2014 (UTC)

Ma and Pa Edit

Do they really use Sage Mode? I realise they thought Naruto how to do it and all, but don't all summons use senjutsu to begin with? When humans use Sage Mode, they change their appearances, etc. It's an actual mode. For summons it appears to be just their default means of combat, and we know senjutsu are harmonious but not necessarily mutually inclusive.--Reliops (talk) 14:38, November 2, 2014 (UTC)

Not this again... let me ask you: why shouldn't they?--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 14:44, November 2, 2014 (UTC)
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