Wikia

Narutopedia

Changes: Talk:Sage Mode

Edit this page

Back to page

m (Reverted edits by 96.25.226.21 (talk | block) to last version by Cerez365)
(Kabuto's sage mode)
 
(516 intermediate revisions by 58 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
 
{{ArchiveList}}
 
{{ArchiveList}}
   
== Structure of the article ==
+
== Kabuto's sage mode ==
   
If you look at Kabuto's Sage Mode, it's impossible to distinguish between:
+
As some might know, I [[User:Seelentau/RTS#Jūgo and the Juin|translated]] Kabuto's words about Jugo's clan and the sage transformation some time ago. In chapter 579, Kabuto says "Immediately, Orochimaru-sama tried to gain that power... but... he did not yet have the body to withstand it... So... just like me, not even he could attain the ''perfect sage'' method!". Could someone please provide the VIZ translation of that part? • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 12:28, April 22, 2016 (UTC)
* the actual Snake Sage Mode
+
:Just curious, why asking?--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 19:04, April 22, 2016 (UTC)
* Juugo's abilities
+
::Because the possibility exists that a) Orochimaru could use an imperfect Sage Mode and/or b) Kabuto's Sage Mode isn't perfect. Depending on the translation. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 19:47, April 22, 2016 (UTC)
* Orochimaru's abilities
 
* Suigetsu's abilities
 
* Karin's abilities
 
Kabuto's sensing prowess is a combination of Sage Mode and Karin's abilities. Kabuto's healing is a combination of Orochimaru's and Karin's abilities. The ability to change your body exists with Juugo's, Orochimaru's, and Suigetsu's abilities. The way Kabuto looks is a combination of Sage Mode, Juugo's DNA and Orochimaru's DNA.
 
   
Given all that, wouldn't it be a much better idea to get rid of the heading "Snake Sage Mode" and use the heading "Kabuto's Sage Mode"? You could even extend it to the whole article:
+
http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=707977 Check this out, it claims it covers up to chapter 613 [[User:QuakingStar|QuakingStar]] ([[User talk:QuakingStar|talk]]) 23:50, April 22, 2016 (UTC)
# General description of Sage Mode
 
# Description of Jiraiya's Sage Mode
 
# Description of Naruto's Sage Mode
 
# Description of Kabuto's Sage Mode
 
It would also make it easier to turn the lists in this article into proper paragraphs.--[[User:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis]] ([[User talk:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|talk]]) 18:09, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
As of my topic above, I disagree completely with the article the way it is now. Also Kabuto's sensing prowess being partially from Karin? Now then, that's a speculation. The way I get it, the only reason why Kabuto has physically changed is due to Orochimaru's DNA + Sage Transformation.
+
Viz: "He finally tracked down the source of the power... ...And that was the Ryuchi Cave. Lord Orochimaru immediately tried to acquire that power... But... He didn't yet possess a body that could tolerate it... That's why... He couldn't become the perfect sage '''that I have become!'''"--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 00:56, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
And again, both Sage Modes grant equal advantages, there are no such things as "toad sm" and "snake sm" mentioned in the series--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 20:59, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
+
:Seel's translation is quite different I see.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 08:46, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
  +
::I'm asking because to me, the Japanese sentence makes it sound as if they were both not able to attain a perfect sage mode... Imma ask OD about it~ • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 12:07, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
  +
:::If your translation is correct, then it indeed sounds like it that either Orochimaru can use Sage Mode but not perfect or that Kabuto's too is imperfect. But doesn't Kabuto brag on later how he is a perfect/true Sage?--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 12:50, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
  +
::::Dunno about that. What I know is that OD translates it the same as me: "He's just like how I am now; he's still unable to attain the means to be a perfect (/complete) sennin.". Do you want me to explain the Japanese sentence/my problem with it? • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 20:20, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
   
:I saw your topic. We both agree that the article in its current state is bad. We agree that there is no such thing as Snake Sage Mode. And I think you agree with the structure I proposed, because you mentioned something similar.
+
So what do you suggest?--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 22:01, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
:About Karin. We know that Karin is good at sensing. We know that Kabuto has Karin's DNA. We don't know whether that influences Kabuto's sensing prowess in Sage Mode. It's just an argument '''against''' calling it Snake Sage Mode, and in favour of calling it Kabuto's Sage Mode.
+
:Moving Kabuto's sage mode to the imperfect section. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 22:10, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
:The article in its current form has 12 section headings for the main content! It has general information listed under Toad Sage Mode. It has irrelevant information listed in the usage section. It might as well not have an introduction. It mentions advantages in three sections. It mentions disadvantages for Toad Sage Mode that are actually disadvantages for everyone. It's a mess.
+
::Well if you are right, then it's not surprising. It wouldn't make sense for it to be perfect. Since he has Jugo's powers and the intake of natural energy is constant, he would have to keep perfect balance of physical and spiritual energies with present amount of natural energy at all times. Naruto let's say can choose how much natural energy to absorb and fit it perfectly with his chakra. But when Kabuto's physical and spiritual energies go down from exhaustion let's say, the natural energy keeps coming, which means there's imbalance. Likewise, even if his chakra doesn't go down and he is freshly woken up, as more natural energy keeps coming, in order for the balance to be perfect, he would have to continuously mold more and more chakra adequate to the ever incoming natural energy, sounds impossible. But that's just my take on it. What about Orochimaru though?--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 22:45, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
:It also ignores that we have essentially seen 4 different versions of Sage Mode. The basic one is the one we see when Fukasaku trains Naruto in Frog Kata, and has the disadvantage that you run out of sage chakra. That problem can be solved by fusing with Fukasaku and Shima as we've seen with Jiraiya (the 2nd version of Sage Mode). Naruto solves the problem with Shadow Clones, making it the 3rd version. Kabuto solves it with Juugo's DNA, making it the 4th version. But wouldn't guess that from the way the article is written.--[[User:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis]] ([[User talk:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|talk]]) 22:05, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
+
:::What about him? He still doesn't have Sageification. He ain't got no bodiiii [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau ]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|]]</sup> 22:55, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
  +
::::How come his tattoos contain his senjutsu chakra then? Not to mention the tidbit about having been bitten by white snake sage and surviving, being worthy to be taught senjutsu. Also if your translation is correct, it says that Orochimaru indeed is a Sage, albeit not a perfect one. Also it says he didn't then *yet* have fitting body, implying he has come to possess one eventually.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 23:03, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
  +
:::::Because, for the thousandth time, Senjutsu chakra doesn't equal Sage Mode. And he never got bitten by the Hakuja Sennin. And my translation says that Oro didn't have the body, right? That's why he couldn't become a perfect sage. Or whatever. I'm too tired to discuss this with you, man^^ • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 23:10, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
  +
Kabuto's wording may be strange, but the idea that he's an imperfect sage doesn't totally add up. The panels in question portray him boasting about his power, so it would be pretty strange for him to pridefully announce how imperfect he is, especially when he later goes on to say he's the closest being to the Six Paths. Don't suppose the databook has anything to contribute on this matter?--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 01:15, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
   
::That is incorrect. You're looking at Sage Mode as changing to a different version based on how it's used, but that's not right. We don't know about the Snake version of Sage Mode, , imperfect and perfect. Ma and Pa on your shoulders is just them using [[Amphibian Sage Technique]] to sit on their shoulder. That is not a different version of Sage Mode.
+
What about this Seel? *The Power of the White Snake is conferred by the White Snake Sage of Ryūchi Cave, by biting a person and injecting them with its natural energy. Those who survive are deemed worthy of being taught Sage Mode*
::Also, having subsections is not a problem. We are an encyclopedia, we chronicle information. If that information requires heading sections, then it gets heading sections.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 16:17, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
+
Can you provide proof that Senjutsu chakra doesn't equal Sage Mode? To my understanding, Sage Mode is a state that comes to be when one balances the 3 energies (physical, spiritual, natural) to form Senjutsu chakra. Once Senjutsu chakra is in one's body, the said body is empowered by it and enters the said state called Sage Mode. Unless you have proof that one can have Senjutsu chakra in his/her body without the effects being Sage Mode/Sage Transformation/Six Paths Sage Mode, then it's bullshit my brother :)
  +
Also this is just my understanding of language, but if I were to say: *I didn't have a girlfriend when I was 12* all it would do is inform us that I had no girlfriend at that age.... but if I were to say: *I didn't yet have a girlfriend when I was 12* then it would let us know that I have eventually gotten one at a later time. But I may be wrong, my language skills are certainly inferior to yours, oh great one!--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 09:03, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
  +
:Listen, all I can do is repeat the manga and the manga said that Orochimaru did not gain access to Sage Mode because he didn't have the body. He obviously knows how to use natural energy and senjutsu chakra, because he's using those for his cursed seals. Sasuke is a user of senjutsu chakra but not of the Sage Mode, right?
  +
:About the "yet", I don't know. It implies that he eventually got a body, but then again, Orochimaru never used Sage Mode and he he even went as far as creating a makeshift mode in the Cursed Seal Transformation. So whatever Kishimoto's logic here is, all we can do is follow it. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 10:41, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
  +
::Sasuke's use of Senjutsu chakra was through his tattoo, which is a merger of Orochimaru's Senjutsu chakra and Jugo's enzyme responsible for Sage Transformation. Sasuke wasn't an user of Sage Mode probably because of the same reason as Orochimaru and Jugo aren't, the 3 energies weren't balanced perfectly most likely. '''If I remember correctly, the manga said that too little natural energy, Senjutsu chakra doesn't get produced... too much and petrification occurs''' Then there's Jiraiya whose wasn't completely balanced, yet he did have imperfect Sage Mode. But shouldn't in that case Orochimaru have an imperfect Sage Mode similar to Jiraiya? His balance is apparently enough for Senjutsu chakra to be produced but not too much natural energy for petrification, so wouldn't he fall in Jiraiya's range of imperfect Sage Mode? Unless Orochimaru has Sage Transformation, but he hasn't ever displayed that either to our knowledge.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 11:32, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
  +
:::Axactly. If you look closely, the black skin around a Senninka user's eyes are similar to Orochimaru's... but whatever, let's just move Kabuto's Sage Mode into the imperfect section. But then again, if he's using Senninka, why is it even a Sage Mode? Where's the exact difference? All this stuff was never answere :/ • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 11:36, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
  +
::::Only as long as you are absolutely certain, then let's move. Senninka is a result of Jugo bodily fluid's reaction to Senjutsu chakra.
  +
In my opinion, Jugo Clan's madness is synonymous to petrification in others. Jugo not mad = volume of natural energy is fine... Jugo mad = too much natural energy compared to his physical and spiritual energies. Sage Mode is this: 'perfect balance of physical, spiritual and natural energies' or you could say perfectly balanced Senjutsu chakra as well (Naruto). Imperfect Sage Mode is this: 'little bit more natural energy than physical and spiritual energies, but not too much for petrification to occur' (Jiraiya)
   
:::What Fukasaku explains about Sage Mode; what the difference is between perfect sage mode and imperfect sage mode; it's all applicable to Snake Sage Mode, because we haven't been told otherwise. They're all simply [[Sage Mode]]. Kabuto uses the benefits of [[Sage Transformation]] to overcome the same problem for which Naruto used Shadow Clones.
+
Both Jugo and Kabuto have Senninka but only Kabuto also has Sage Mode, but as you point out, the dialogue suggest imperfect. The reason for that is that even though Jugo's volume/balance of the 3 energies is enough for Senjutsu chakra to be produced, it's not good enough even for imperfect Sage Mode to occur, while Kabuto's might be almost balanced, with maybe just little too much natural energy and not enough physical and spiritual energies, just like in Jiraiya's case.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 12:12, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
:::Sage Mode on its own is only useful if you want to rearrange the stone statues of toads. Or if you can prepare Sage Mode in advance; ambush your enemy; and defeat him quickly before you run out of Sage Chakra. So yes, [[Sage Mode]]+[[Amphibian Sage Technique]] is a different version of Sage Mode, because it's far more practical than Sage Mode on its own. Without solutions like Amphibian Sage Technique, Shadow Clones and Sage transformation, all that's left of [[Sage Mode]] is an incomplete technique. So it's not just different uses; it's an incomplete technique with 3 different ways to make it complete.
+
:What if you go insane when you've too much/little spiritual energy and turn to stone when you've too much/little physical energy? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau ]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 12:31, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
:::So you're saying that heading sections like "advantages" and "disadvantages" are required? You're saying that headings that use the phrase "Snake Sage Mode" are required; even though that's not canon? You're reply ignores the basic fact that sections shouldn't be used if you only have one paragraph of information.
+
::That's some very nice headcanon. But in the training Naruto started to turn to stone with too much natural energy, then got hit with magical stick which pushed it out of his body. Jugo's madness was also attributed to natural energy. According to databook, Jugo has Yang Release which consists of chakra that has in it mostly physical energy and little spiritual energy. In that case, if your headcanon were right, then madness would be a result of too much physical energy, more than spiritual and/or natural. But Naruto also is a 'Yang type' and he was getting stoned, not insane.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 12:41, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
:::In the end this article shows that you can't keep adding information to it and hope it remains making sense. Sometimes you have to reorganise the information.--[[User:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis]] ([[User talk:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|talk]]) 20:19, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
+
:::I think what Kabuto used was actually an SM, not ST, but at least with the add of Jugo's DNA, so Kabuto could constantly absorb natural energy and keep his SM permanently active. And Jugo just compared his ST ability to Kabuto's SM, he didn't really know the difference, yet ST was the ability he was particulary familiar with, unlike SM. Kabuto said that he didn't get a CS (which he called an imperfect copy of the true power), neither he used Jugo's DNA to completely replicate this abililty in his own body, but he travelled to the Ryuchi Cave to learn the "true", perfected version of the power, i.e. the SM. [[User:Ravenlot 27|Ravenlot 27]] ([[User talk:Ravenlot 27|talk]]) 12:48, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
  +
::::Nah, Jugo in the chapter was written in a way that he perfectly knew what was going on and what he was talking about. When Suigetsu said that Kabuto looks weird, Jugo commented that he himself and Kabuto are the same and it's called Senninka. When Orochimaru sucked out his chakra from Kabuto and the snake transformation disappeared, Jugo commented that Orochimaru also deactivated Senninka.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 12:51, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
  +
:::::Like I already said, there's no doubt Jugo was familiar with the mechanics of the ST, his own ability. But there's no evidence he could distinguish between it and the SM, especially considering Kabuto's appearance, which looked very confusing back then. ST is kinda natural ability of Jugo's clan, their "natural" version of SM, so to speak, albeit with significant drawbacks. Kabuto (and Oro) found a true source of this power, i.e. Ryuchi Cave, where they could learn "stablised" version of Jugo's ability, the SM, although only Kabuto perfectly succeeded in this. If Kabuto's senjutsu was purely a ST, there was no need for him to travel into Ryuchi Cave and learn SM from the Snake Sage cause he already had what was necessary (i.e. Jugo's DNA) for replicating ST in his own body. [[User:Ravenlot 27|Ravenlot 27]] ([[User talk:Ravenlot 27|talk]]) 13:10, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
   
:::::Mistake number 1: Assuming things are the same when we are not told otherwise. We don't assume when we aren't told.
+
Sage Mode is superior to just Sage Transformation alone, Kabuto clearly has both. Sage Transformation is Senjutsu powered mutation. Sage Mode has to be learned as it's achieved when Senjutsu chakra is balanced and when it perfectly is, besides the eyes and pigment, there is no physical alternation. Also he learned Sage Techniques at Ryuchi Cave, like [[Sage Art: Inorganic Reincarnation]] and [[Sage Art: White Rage Technique]].--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 13:29, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
:::::Mistake number 2: No, Sage Mode + Amphibian Sage Technique is ''not'' another version of Sage Mode. It's Sage Mode with two old toads merged to your shoulder. Naruto could go Sage Mode perfectly well by remaining still and gathering natural energy. The entire point of the two toads was so one can do so in combat. Naruto has gone into Sage Mode on and off perfectly multiple times during the war without the need of a clone (or just a clone of him do it instead of his actual body), still perfect Sage Mode.
+
:Databook: "''In Jugo's village, the state after invoking the power of Senjutsu is referred to as "Sage Transformation".''" That wording does seem like it could be implying Sage Transformation is just a region-specific term for any senjutsu-empowered state, be it Jugo's mutations or proper Sage Mode. But of course there's no way to know for sure if that's what it meant until we (hopefully) get more information on Jugo and his clan.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 20:55, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
:::::Clarification number 1: If they are required, then yes. They could also be moved into paragraph format, but I feel it's easier to have them in a listed format, that way one wants to know what the disadvantages of Sage Mode is, one just has to go to the article, click the header for disadvantages, and wow look there it is.
 
:::::In the end, the issue I'm having is your belief that there are random versions of Sage Mode when, as of now, we are aware of there only being two and that's the difference between Toad and Snake. Yes, while the name may not be canon, the fact that a perfect Snake Sage has different properties than a Toad Sage is notable (Naruto is a perfect Toad Sage, the only differences is the pigment around his eyes. Meanwhile Kabuto is a perfect Snake Sage, and he gained ''a lot'' of snake features.)--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 20:42, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
@Ultimate, those are physical/visual differences, there are none in benefits. Also the former might be only due to sage transformation/jugo's dna/orochimaru's dna and not a common result--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:10, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
+
== Mitsuki uses Sage Transformation ==
   
@TheUltimate3
+
We dun goofed. Mitsuki does not have sennin mode (仙人モード), he has sennin transformation (仙人化) [http://i.imgur.com/ZkaiHG3.png{1}]. --[[User:DC52|DC52]] ([[User talk:DC52|talk]]) 09:48, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
+
:And that's why it's best to wait for the raws. So Mitsuki either has genes from Jugo's Clan or Orochimaru applied one of his Cursed Seals/Curse Marks on him.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 10:06, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
Mistake 1 = Assuming things are different when we have no information that says otherwise. Which means we can only look at what the manga has given us, and that's ONE Sage Mode.
+
::Well, I should've known that mangastream can't be trusted. They can't even differ between 仙人モード and 仙人化, holy shit. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 11:47, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
+
:::Anyone going to make changes?--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 12:51, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
Mistake 2 = The whole point of Sage Mode is that it's useless in combat UNLESS
+
::::I'm ready to make changes, bur here's quick question: is it enough that we add Mitsuki as user in [[Sage Transformation]]-info box and image of Mitsuki's Sage Transformation? --[[User:JouXIII|JouXIII]] ([[User talk:JouXIII|talk]]) 13:10, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
* you arrive at the battle already in Sage Mode (like Naruto did against Pain); or
+
:::::Go for it.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Akimichi Symbol.svg|30px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:22, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
* you manage to buy yourself some time to get into Sage Mode (like the clumsy toad did for Jiraiya; like the Alliance did for Naruto; and which Kurama's Chakra Cloak did for Naruto)
+
::::::Done. --[[User:JouXIII|JouXIII]] ([[User talk:JouXIII|talk]]) 13:33, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
and even then you have to make sure that:
 
* you either beat your opponent '''before''' you drop out of Sage Mode; or
 
* you find a solution to the problem that you can't gather natural energy while moving.
 
Buying the time to get into Sage Mode is the easy problem. Trying to maintain Sage Mode is the difficult problem, and without a solution it's useless for combat purposes.
 
 
Mistake 3 = If you want to see Sage Mode as nothing more than gathering natural energy and mixing it to create Sage Chakra which would lead to Sage Mode, than the article shouldn't need any of the other information. You could pretty much copy and past Fukasaku's explanation to Naruto into this article and lock the page. All the other information should then be moved to the appropriate character pages. If you're going to argue a certain position, at least draw the logical conclusion from it.
 
 
Clarification number 1 = We are aware of 3 schools of teaching; 3 schools that teach Sage Mode. We now know that the Toads teach Sage Mode and that the Snakes teach Sage Mode. We were never told that these were *different* Sage Modes. The only thing they might teach different are the ways to use Sage Mode, and their preferred solutions to some of the problems associated with Sage Mode.
 
 
Clarification number 2 = We haven't been shown what the Snakes teach. We don't even know how a person that has been taught Sage Mode by the Snakes looks like. What we have seen is the end result of: (a) the Sage Mode as taught by the Snakes; and (b) a shitload of DNA modifications done by Kabuto himself. In fact, Kabuto's Sage Mode could be seen as a hybrid of [[Sage Mode]] and [[Sage Transformation]] with no answers to questions like: (i) What are the benefits of that combination?; (ii) What are the drawbacks of that combination?; and (iii) How would such a combination change the looks of someone in Sage Mode as taught by the Snakes?.
 
 
In the end Kabuto's Sage Mode is exactly the same as [[Sage Mode]]+[[Amphibian Sage Technique]] but with the added problem that we can't distinguish between the two. You're drawing the illogical conclusion that one is a different version of Sage Mode while the other is not, based on the same facts and using the same arguments. The only thing we know for sure is that perfect sage mode taught by the Snakes will lead to a different pigmentation around the eyes, though we don't know why and how the pigmentation becomes different. We haven't been told that Sage Mode taught by the Snakes will lead to different properties (e.g. speed and strength) in Sage Mode.
 
 
What we disagree about is basically this:
 
* Sage Mode = impractical Sage Mode as Fukasaku taught it to Naruto before trying the [[Amphibian Sage Technique]] and failing
 
* Sage Mode = impractical Sage Mode plus ways to make Sage Mode usable
 
Either way, the article needs rewriting to make it clear.--[[User:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis]] ([[User talk:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|talk]]) 23:31, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
I almost completely agree with you, I'd rewrite the article myself, but I don't want to start an edit war. The way it's now is not only incorrect but confusing/misleading.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 01:25, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:Wait for others to chime in on opinions and thoughts. My largest issue with what is proposed is the idea that there are 4 different versions of Sage Mode based on if a toad is on your shoulder or not, but I don't have the patients to continue reading/responding to such incredibly long responses.
 
:Rewriting an article is a bigger task than a single section, wait for others to voice opinions before making a move.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 04:46, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
:::I hope that my analogy to ''incomplete technique versus completed technique'' helps with understanding what I mean when I used the word "version".--[[User:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis]] ([[User talk:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|talk]]) 19:11, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Not really a rewriting, just merging of sections, separating of others, cutting here and pasting there etc. also removal of speculation--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 05:16, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
How is this article confusing? I don't know how much this will help but as the article stands now I am fine with it. The only reason it is confusing to you guys is because you're taking things you don't have a clue about and adding them to the mix. It should be:
 
* Sage Mode-Toads
 
** mention all we know
 
*** Also make note of the perfect balance and imperfect balance that the two disciples have achieved
 
** acknowledge the traditional method (with a sage toad to aid in process)
 
*** also mention the way Naruto uses it (with clones)
 
* Sage Mode- Snakes
 
** '''Assume that everything Kabuto did then is a product of Sage Mode''' unless/until mentioned/told otherwise. Then annotations can be made.
 
All that information is represented on the articles, it's just that you have all gone too far in dissecting Kabuto's Sage Mode. I realise that the people who always have problems with the way articles are, are the ones that go off on tangents and want to jump the proverbial gun and we don't do that here. Once the information is available to us, where we can reference it, and have evidence then that's when we move, not before. I'm not sure if you guys understand or no, but this is a method that has to be used to streamline content on the wikia so we don't lose credibility in the information that is found here.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:05, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
The only thing I could advocate for regarding this page, is that the image in the infobox is no longer accurate and a neutral one, possibly just showing the mixing/balancing of natural energy would be better.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:09, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:@Cerez365...That assumption flies in the face of everything we've been shown in the manga. Kabuto's appearance was already changing when he put Orochimaru's DNA in himself. And everyone that uses a derivative of Juugo's abilities changes his appearance, just like Juugo himself does. Kabuto is using Sage Mode and Sage Transformation together, just like Jiraiya uses Sage Mode and [[Amphibian Sage Technique]] together. You can't just assume that everything Kabuto does is the result of Sage Mode, because it's explicitly said that it isn't. Why else would the DNA of Juugo, Karin and Suigetsu be mentioned?
 
 
:The structure should be:
 
:* Sage Mode
 
:** Mention all we know (basically everything that Fukasaku explained).
 
:*** Mention the existence perfect sage mode and imperfect sage mode.
 
:*** Mention the existence of 3 places where Sage Mode is taught, and that the pigmentation around the eyes show at which place you learned Sage Mode.
 
:*** Mention that most users have a method of making it more usable in combat.
 
:* Jiraiya's Sage Mode
 
:** Mention that Jiraiya is an imperfect sage, and that he uses the traditional method as taught by the toads to make Sage Mode usable in combat and refer to the article [[Amphibian Sage Technique]].
 
:*Naruto's Sage Mode
 
:** Mention that Naruto is a perfect Sage.
 
:** Mention that Naruto couldn't use the method taught by the toads and had to come up with his own solution: Shadow Clones (and how he used it in his battle with Pain, maybe).
 
:* Kabuto's Sage Mode
 
:** Mention that Kabuto learned Sage Mode from the Snakes; that he would therefore look more like a snake than a toad; and that it's unknown how a Sage would look in its pure Snake form.
 
:** Mention that Kabuto used Juugo's DNA and [[Sage Transformation]] to solve the same problem that Naruto used Shadow Clones for.
 
:** Mention how Kabuto infused himself with DNA from Karin and Suigetsu and refer to the relevant section in Kabuto's character article.
 
:That's a far more usable and canon compliant structure than the current article has. It also prevents unnecessary duplication of information (see advantages and disadvantages sections). It also allows contributors to compare a specific character's use of Sage Mode against the general characteristics of Sage Mode, instead of forcing a reader to compare and contrast various uses of Sage Mode against eachother.--[[User:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis]] ([[User talk:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|talk]]) 14:46, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
* Kabuto's appearance changed because Orochimaru's cells were fighting to take over Kabuto's body. That has nothing to do with Jūgo. It's akin to Hashirama's cells trying to turn Danzō into a tree, or else have them sprouting his face on his arm and Madara's chest, so you're wrong in that regard.
 
* It's not an assumption, it's lumping all the information together. I did not say they weren't factors into Kabuto's abilities but as this point, we're unable to discern what is what except for what has been told to us:
 
** How do you know that Kabuto is using Sage Transformation and not just using Jūgo's ability to passively absorb chakra? How do you know that that's simply how someone who uses ''snake'' Sage Mode is supposed to look?
 
** How do you know that Kabuto's been using Karin's Mind Eye of the Kagura (which is ridiculously impossible to steal via DNA) and just doesn't possess her ability to heal?
 
** As for Suigetsu, Kabuto was able to copy his [[Hydrification Technique]] and create the [[Body Fluid Shedding Technique]].
 
* There is no such thing as perfect and imperfect Sage Mode. These are terms that we engineered for compartmentalising sake all of which is already mentioned. Ergo, Naruto and Jiraiya's forms don't have to be separated any more than they are now.
 
* Kabuto's:
 
** You're assuming that's not what a "pure" Sage would look like. There's nothing to compare it to, so where are you forming your basis from? SPECULATION
 
** {{Quote|Kabuto assimilated the DNA of Jūgo to replicate his clan's ability to passively absorb natural energy, thus allowing him to continuously collect the energy even while moving.}}
 
** Information about the assimilation of DNA '''unrelated''' to his Sage Mode is mentioned in his article.
 
* Like I've said before, I personally see nothing wrong with the article's structure and the most I would change is a picture or two. We are supposed to chronicle '''what is said in the series''' not the foregone conclusions that we draw on our own.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 16:02, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
@Cerez365...You're committing quite a few strawman fallacies to "prove" that I'm wrong. Cut it out!
 
 
You insist on using the phrase "ability to passively absorb natural energy". Fine, substitute that every time I use the phrase [[Sage Transformation]]. It doesn't alter my argument, but you seem to ignore that part in favour of saying that I'm wrong. <s>(BTW, isn't Sage Transformation the name of Juugo's kekkei genkai?)</s>
 
 
You acknowledge that there are factors contributing to Kabuto's appearance and abilities. And yet you fail to draw logical conclusions from that; conclusions that are consistent with the manga.
 
# We know how a perfect toad sage looks like: perfectly human except for the pigmentation around the eyes. The logical conclusion is that it's the same for a perfect snake sage. Is that speculation? Perhaps, but the significant part is that it's '''less speculative than the opposite conclusion''' (which would be that a snake sage is supposed to look like Kabuto did).
 
# We know that quite a few things that Kabuto assimilated will change your appearance. Sage Mode is just one of several factors that change Kabuto's appearance. The logical conclusion is that we're seeing Kabuto's Sage Mode. The illogical conclusion is that we're seeing "Snake Sage Mode".
 
# The manga says that there are 3 places that teach Sage Mode. The manga doesn't say that there are 3 '''different''' Sage Modes corresponding to 3 '''different''' animals. The logical conclusion is that there is only '''one Sage Mode'''.
 
# The manga is pretty clear about the fact that Sage Mode needs '''something''' to make it useful in combat. It's why I referred to Sage Mode as an incomplete technique (as well as to clarify my use of the word "version"). The manga has shown us three ways:
 
## Sage Mode + [[Amphibian Sage Technique]]
 
## Sage Mode + [[Shadow Clone Technique]]
 
## Sage Mode + [[Sage Transformation|Jūgo's ability to passively absorb natural energy]]
 
Given this information '''from the manga''', it makes sense to treat the three times we've seen Sage Mode used in combat (the "completed" sage mode) just as important as the ("incomplete") Sage Mode.
 
 
You say that: ''We are supposed to chronicle what is said in the series not the foregone conclusions that we draw on our own.'' '''But that's exactly the problem with the current article.''' Calling it "Toad Sage Mode" and "Snake Sage Mode" emphasizes the personal interpretation of fans. Simply calling it "Jiraiya's Sage Mode", "Naruto's Sage Mode" and "Kabuto's Sage Mode" de-emphasizes any personal interpretation '''and allows us to emphasize what is actually said in the manga'''.--[[User:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis]] ([[User talk:Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis|talk]]) 19:03, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
I see no reason no reason to change the article. It's fine as is for me. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 21:27, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
@Omni,
 
* the intro is : "Sage Mode is the result of using natural energy along with a ninja's normal chakra to drastically empower all their abilities"
 
Should be: "Sage Mode is a special technique used by Sages of [[Mount Myōboku]] and [[Ryūchi Cave]] that empowers their abilities. Another legendary place known as [[Shikkotsu Forest]] also exists, but it's yet to appear along with it's inhabitants and a Sage representative"
 
Also as far as I know, Fukasaku for example isn't a ninja, so theoretically even a samurai could learn it or anyone who is skilled with chakra manipulation for that matter. My version sounds more appropriate as an intro imo.
 
The part about it's workings should be a solely separate section as there's no need to repeat some of the information twice, and Shinobi again should be changed into user/individual or something.
 
 
It's an assumption/speculation:
 
* That Naruto/Kabuto have different power-ups while it's the very same and only technique using the same natural energy from around them, the terms "snake sage mode/toad snake mode" are basically fanon, there's not even a slight hint that there are more versions and that the benefits they grant differ.
 
* That Kabuto uses perfect/imperfect Sage Mode (we don't know even if it's most likely perfect, but since there are other factors as Orochimaru and Jugo's DNA in the play, it should be called Kabuto's Sage Mode) so stating that horns and shit are a sign of a true snake sage is double speculative. EDIT: already changed/removed partially.
 
So in short, this is how I imagine it:
 
* intro/overview in a nutshell, my proposal
 
* usage/workings/mechanics describing what it is more in detail and containing information about both it's advantages and disadvantages
 
* forms, stating what a perfect and imperfect sages are
 
* users: "Naruto in Sage Mode, Jiraiya in Sage Mode, Kabuto in Sage Mode" with a picture of each representative and a short history about their training and a summary about their "differences and workarounds"--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 03:49, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Strawman fallacies? Friend when you're wrong, you're wrong. Sage Transformation is what happens to the clan members as a result of absorbing the natural energy. Use context clues and figure that out. All I was pointing out was that the info was reflected in the article. And again to address your list:
 
# Both Jiraiya and Naruto's use are mentioned and categorised
 
# Incorrect. The only thing that changed Kabuto appearance was what he took from Orochimaru ergo why Kabuto looked like that when he reabsorbed his "stuff" from Kabuto. If Kabuto had turned out looking like Kevin Levin, you would have had more of an argument. Without even adding the speculation that to think you could absorb a Senju clan descendant and not so much as change hair colour.
 
# The is not one sage mode. There is simple at least three different animals that learned how to absorb, balance and use Sage Mode. Why is this point even here in the first place?
 
# There is no need to me, to mention the different uses of Sage Mode outside said person's section. All the information is represented in the article and it is neither confusing nor lost, and believe me every time something like this comes up I use third party options from people not on the site.
 
In any case I'm done with this discussion, this seems like another of those lost causes/false alarms.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 06:22, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
 

Latest revision as of 20:55, April 24, 2016

Icon-Archive
Archives

Kabuto's sage mode Edit

As some might know, I translated Kabuto's words about Jugo's clan and the sage transformation some time ago. In chapter 579, Kabuto says "Immediately, Orochimaru-sama tried to gain that power... but... he did not yet have the body to withstand it... So... just like me, not even he could attain the perfect sage method!". Could someone please provide the VIZ translation of that part? • Seelentau 愛 12:28, April 22, 2016 (UTC)

Just curious, why asking?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 19:04, April 22, 2016 (UTC)
Because the possibility exists that a) Orochimaru could use an imperfect Sage Mode and/or b) Kabuto's Sage Mode isn't perfect. Depending on the translation. • Seelentau 愛 19:47, April 22, 2016 (UTC)

http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=707977 Check this out, it claims it covers up to chapter 613 QuakingStar (talk) 23:50, April 22, 2016 (UTC)

Viz: "He finally tracked down the source of the power... ...And that was the Ryuchi Cave. Lord Orochimaru immediately tried to acquire that power... But... He didn't yet possess a body that could tolerate it... That's why... He couldn't become the perfect sage that I have become!"--BeyondRed (talk) 00:56, April 23, 2016 (UTC)

Seel's translation is quite different I see.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 08:46, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
I'm asking because to me, the Japanese sentence makes it sound as if they were both not able to attain a perfect sage mode... Imma ask OD about it~ • Seelentau 愛 12:07, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
If your translation is correct, then it indeed sounds like it that either Orochimaru can use Sage Mode but not perfect or that Kabuto's too is imperfect. But doesn't Kabuto brag on later how he is a perfect/true Sage?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 12:50, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
Dunno about that. What I know is that OD translates it the same as me: "He's just like how I am now; he's still unable to attain the means to be a perfect (/complete) sennin.". Do you want me to explain the Japanese sentence/my problem with it? • Seelentau 愛 20:20, April 23, 2016 (UTC)

So what do you suggest?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 22:01, April 23, 2016 (UTC)

Moving Kabuto's sage mode to the imperfect section. • Seelentau 愛 22:10, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
Well if you are right, then it's not surprising. It wouldn't make sense for it to be perfect. Since he has Jugo's powers and the intake of natural energy is constant, he would have to keep perfect balance of physical and spiritual energies with present amount of natural energy at all times. Naruto let's say can choose how much natural energy to absorb and fit it perfectly with his chakra. But when Kabuto's physical and spiritual energies go down from exhaustion let's say, the natural energy keeps coming, which means there's imbalance. Likewise, even if his chakra doesn't go down and he is freshly woken up, as more natural energy keeps coming, in order for the balance to be perfect, he would have to continuously mold more and more chakra adequate to the ever incoming natural energy, sounds impossible. But that's just my take on it. What about Orochimaru though?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 22:45, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
What about him? He still doesn't have Sageification. He ain't got no bodiiii • Seelentau 愛 22:55, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
How come his tattoos contain his senjutsu chakra then? Not to mention the tidbit about having been bitten by white snake sage and surviving, being worthy to be taught senjutsu. Also if your translation is correct, it says that Orochimaru indeed is a Sage, albeit not a perfect one. Also it says he didn't then *yet* have fitting body, implying he has come to possess one eventually.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 23:03, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
Because, for the thousandth time, Senjutsu chakra doesn't equal Sage Mode. And he never got bitten by the Hakuja Sennin. And my translation says that Oro didn't have the body, right? That's why he couldn't become a perfect sage. Or whatever. I'm too tired to discuss this with you, man^^ • Seelentau 愛 23:10, April 23, 2016 (UTC)

Kabuto's wording may be strange, but the idea that he's an imperfect sage doesn't totally add up. The panels in question portray him boasting about his power, so it would be pretty strange for him to pridefully announce how imperfect he is, especially when he later goes on to say he's the closest being to the Six Paths. Don't suppose the databook has anything to contribute on this matter?--BeyondRed (talk) 01:15, April 24, 2016 (UTC)

What about this Seel? *The Power of the White Snake is conferred by the White Snake Sage of Ryūchi Cave, by biting a person and injecting them with its natural energy. Those who survive are deemed worthy of being taught Sage Mode* Can you provide proof that Senjutsu chakra doesn't equal Sage Mode? To my understanding, Sage Mode is a state that comes to be when one balances the 3 energies (physical, spiritual, natural) to form Senjutsu chakra. Once Senjutsu chakra is in one's body, the said body is empowered by it and enters the said state called Sage Mode. Unless you have proof that one can have Senjutsu chakra in his/her body without the effects being Sage Mode/Sage Transformation/Six Paths Sage Mode, then it's bullshit my brother :) Also this is just my understanding of language, but if I were to say: *I didn't have a girlfriend when I was 12* all it would do is inform us that I had no girlfriend at that age.... but if I were to say: *I didn't yet have a girlfriend when I was 12* then it would let us know that I have eventually gotten one at a later time. But I may be wrong, my language skills are certainly inferior to yours, oh great one!--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 09:03, April 24, 2016 (UTC)

Listen, all I can do is repeat the manga and the manga said that Orochimaru did not gain access to Sage Mode because he didn't have the body. He obviously knows how to use natural energy and senjutsu chakra, because he's using those for his cursed seals. Sasuke is a user of senjutsu chakra but not of the Sage Mode, right?
About the "yet", I don't know. It implies that he eventually got a body, but then again, Orochimaru never used Sage Mode and he he even went as far as creating a makeshift mode in the Cursed Seal Transformation. So whatever Kishimoto's logic here is, all we can do is follow it. • Seelentau 愛 10:41, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
Sasuke's use of Senjutsu chakra was through his tattoo, which is a merger of Orochimaru's Senjutsu chakra and Jugo's enzyme responsible for Sage Transformation. Sasuke wasn't an user of Sage Mode probably because of the same reason as Orochimaru and Jugo aren't, the 3 energies weren't balanced perfectly most likely. If I remember correctly, the manga said that too little natural energy, Senjutsu chakra doesn't get produced... too much and petrification occurs Then there's Jiraiya whose wasn't completely balanced, yet he did have imperfect Sage Mode. But shouldn't in that case Orochimaru have an imperfect Sage Mode similar to Jiraiya? His balance is apparently enough for Senjutsu chakra to be produced but not too much natural energy for petrification, so wouldn't he fall in Jiraiya's range of imperfect Sage Mode? Unless Orochimaru has Sage Transformation, but he hasn't ever displayed that either to our knowledge.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 11:32, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
Axactly. If you look closely, the black skin around a Senninka user's eyes are similar to Orochimaru's... but whatever, let's just move Kabuto's Sage Mode into the imperfect section. But then again, if he's using Senninka, why is it even a Sage Mode? Where's the exact difference? All this stuff was never answere :/ • Seelentau 愛 11:36, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
Only as long as you are absolutely certain, then let's move. Senninka is a result of Jugo bodily fluid's reaction to Senjutsu chakra.

In my opinion, Jugo Clan's madness is synonymous to petrification in others. Jugo not mad = volume of natural energy is fine... Jugo mad = too much natural energy compared to his physical and spiritual energies. Sage Mode is this: 'perfect balance of physical, spiritual and natural energies' or you could say perfectly balanced Senjutsu chakra as well (Naruto). Imperfect Sage Mode is this: 'little bit more natural energy than physical and spiritual energies, but not too much for petrification to occur' (Jiraiya)

Both Jugo and Kabuto have Senninka but only Kabuto also has Sage Mode, but as you point out, the dialogue suggest imperfect. The reason for that is that even though Jugo's volume/balance of the 3 energies is enough for Senjutsu chakra to be produced, it's not good enough even for imperfect Sage Mode to occur, while Kabuto's might be almost balanced, with maybe just little too much natural energy and not enough physical and spiritual energies, just like in Jiraiya's case.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 12:12, April 24, 2016 (UTC)

What if you go insane when you've too much/little spiritual energy and turn to stone when you've too much/little physical energy? • Seelentau 愛 12:31, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
That's some very nice headcanon. But in the training Naruto started to turn to stone with too much natural energy, then got hit with magical stick which pushed it out of his body. Jugo's madness was also attributed to natural energy. According to databook, Jugo has Yang Release which consists of chakra that has in it mostly physical energy and little spiritual energy. In that case, if your headcanon were right, then madness would be a result of too much physical energy, more than spiritual and/or natural. But Naruto also is a 'Yang type' and he was getting stoned, not insane.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 12:41, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
I think what Kabuto used was actually an SM, not ST, but at least with the add of Jugo's DNA, so Kabuto could constantly absorb natural energy and keep his SM permanently active. And Jugo just compared his ST ability to Kabuto's SM, he didn't really know the difference, yet ST was the ability he was particulary familiar with, unlike SM. Kabuto said that he didn't get a CS (which he called an imperfect copy of the true power), neither he used Jugo's DNA to completely replicate this abililty in his own body, but he travelled to the Ryuchi Cave to learn the "true", perfected version of the power, i.e. the SM. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 12:48, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
Nah, Jugo in the chapter was written in a way that he perfectly knew what was going on and what he was talking about. When Suigetsu said that Kabuto looks weird, Jugo commented that he himself and Kabuto are the same and it's called Senninka. When Orochimaru sucked out his chakra from Kabuto and the snake transformation disappeared, Jugo commented that Orochimaru also deactivated Senninka.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 12:51, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
Like I already said, there's no doubt Jugo was familiar with the mechanics of the ST, his own ability. But there's no evidence he could distinguish between it and the SM, especially considering Kabuto's appearance, which looked very confusing back then. ST is kinda natural ability of Jugo's clan, their "natural" version of SM, so to speak, albeit with significant drawbacks. Kabuto (and Oro) found a true source of this power, i.e. Ryuchi Cave, where they could learn "stablised" version of Jugo's ability, the SM, although only Kabuto perfectly succeeded in this. If Kabuto's senjutsu was purely a ST, there was no need for him to travel into Ryuchi Cave and learn SM from the Snake Sage cause he already had what was necessary (i.e. Jugo's DNA) for replicating ST in his own body. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 13:10, April 24, 2016 (UTC)

Sage Mode is superior to just Sage Transformation alone, Kabuto clearly has both. Sage Transformation is Senjutsu powered mutation. Sage Mode has to be learned as it's achieved when Senjutsu chakra is balanced and when it perfectly is, besides the eyes and pigment, there is no physical alternation. Also he learned Sage Techniques at Ryuchi Cave, like Sage Art: Inorganic Reincarnation and Sage Art: White Rage Technique.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 13:29, April 24, 2016 (UTC)

Databook: "In Jugo's village, the state after invoking the power of Senjutsu is referred to as "Sage Transformation"." That wording does seem like it could be implying Sage Transformation is just a region-specific term for any senjutsu-empowered state, be it Jugo's mutations or proper Sage Mode. But of course there's no way to know for sure if that's what it meant until we (hopefully) get more information on Jugo and his clan.--BeyondRed (talk) 20:55, April 24, 2016 (UTC)

Mitsuki uses Sage Transformation Edit

We dun goofed. Mitsuki does not have sennin mode (仙人モード), he has sennin transformation (仙人化) [1]. --DC52 (talk) 09:48, April 23, 2016 (UTC)

And that's why it's best to wait for the raws. So Mitsuki either has genes from Jugo's Clan or Orochimaru applied one of his Cursed Seals/Curse Marks on him.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 10:06, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
Well, I should've known that mangastream can't be trusted. They can't even differ between 仙人モード and 仙人化, holy shit. • Seelentau 愛 11:47, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
Anyone going to make changes?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 12:51, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
I'm ready to make changes, bur here's quick question: is it enough that we add Mitsuki as user in Sage Transformation-info box and image of Mitsuki's Sage Transformation? --JouXIII (talk) 13:10, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
Go for it.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 13:22, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
Done. --JouXIII (talk) 13:33, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
Facts about "Sage Mode"RDF feed

Around Wikia's network

Random Wiki