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== translations ==
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{{ArchiveList}}
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== Madara ==
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He basically just stole it from Hashirama, but he also stated that he managed to master it very quickly, so he should be listed as a user, right? [[User:Norleon|Norleon]] ([[User talk:Norleon|talk]]) 12:49, December 4, 2013 (UTC)
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:I think it is the same with his Wood Release. It doesn't matter if the ability was stolen or acquired through body modifications, if he is using it, then he is an user. [[User:Shadow Abyss|Shadow Abyss]] ([[User talk:Shadow Abyss|talk]]) 13:27, December 4, 2013 (UTC)
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::I think the situation is a bit subtler than that. With Wood Release, all Madara needed was a physical piece of Hashirama to be grafted in his body. For Sage Mode, even though he already had the physical implant, he had to go to Hashirama. He drained Hashirama of his senjutsu chakra (which I find very odd, since I don't recall Hashirama being in Sage Mode the last few chapters). He didn't make the senjutsu chakra himself (as far as we know), we don't even know if Madara knows the mechanics of how senjutsu chakra comes to be (though I believe he does). We don't consider people Naruto gave tailed beast chakra to be jinchūriki, so I don't think Madara should be considered a Sage Mode user, even if he's using the senjutsu chakra. The whole situation is murky. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:45, December 4, 2013 (UTC)
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:::Hello sempai. In regards to Madara i would have to disagree a bit...in an earlier chapter, he said he was going to take Hashi' senjutsu powers in chapter 647. Now in this one Madara says how the power of the senjutsu chakra was dissapointing and he believed it would be harder to control it. Not only that, but we say the perfect Sage pattern appear in Madara's chest face. Also we know that if unless senjutsu chakra can be balanced, the user will display animal traits and eventually turn into an animal statue. Being a sage is being one who can balance and control senjutsu chakra within himself. From where i see it, Madara simply took a shortcut to attain the same result. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 00:51, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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::::But there's something that has never been clarified: does senjutsu chakra require active balancing once it is made? I mean, do you have to keep balancing the spiritual, physical and natural energies once the senjutsu chakra is made, or once made in the perfect ratio, the chakra is stable? I also find it very odd that it was only the Hashirama face that got the markings, and that Madara himself didn't get them. And I repeat, Madara himself has not made the chakra as far as we know. We don't list every shinobi Naruto gave Kurama's chakra a host, because the source of the chakra is not in them. Madara may have a Hashirama graft, but the graft was not the source of the chakra he is using. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 01:40, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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::::::But as Madara said, he did had to control the senjutsu chakra, even if that took less effort than what he originally assumed. Also i believe once the initial control is gained the chakra remains stable, but as we all know senjutsu chakra doesn't renew itself so for sages, there is no chakra source, they have to take the energy from outside sources and balance it with their own. If Madara hadn't gain control over the chakra, he'd turn into an animal like the Preta Path when he absorbed Naruto's chakra. And it was defined in the article that control (even if imperfect) over senjutsu chakra is what makes a sage. Also the Kurama comparison doesn't really fit here sempai, since we are talking about two very different types of chakra. Graft or no graft, that face is a part of Madara's body, thus its part of Madara himself and as such anything derived from it is Madara's own at this point.
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::::::*Another little side detail to add to this is Madara's insane sensing prowess after his revival. Given how Uchiha senses are restricted to visual/dojutsu ones and how once that is lost, their battle prowess takes a nosedive. (Izuna's death and Madara's final defeat against Hashi comes to mind.) I ask...how did Madara managed to dance around a Sharingan/sword master's attack, sense the peculiar traits of Sasuke's Sharingan, all while being effectively blind? The only type of sensing prowess this strong is that of a sage...remember Kabuto vs Sasuke and Itachi? Kabuto was also blind to prevent genjutsu and still outfought the brothers due his sensing in Sage Mode. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 01:57, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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The Preta Path case isn't the best example, since the zoom in Naruto when he opened his eyes sort of implied he himself introduced an imbalance in the senjutsu chakra while it was being absorbed. And it's not the senjutsu chakra per se that transforms one into an animal and then a statue, it's the overwhelming natural energy that does if you can't control its flow. Regarding sensing, Madara has been noted a sensor for a while now, and not due to his eyes. I goes back to at least when he first detected Hashirama's and made that psycho face. He's been listed as a sensor at least since then. Kabuto wasn't exactly blind. His brille made a filter to his eyes, you could still see the snake pupils behind them when they were lowered. Base Madara already had sensing. If anything, I'd say that the sage chakra is boosting an ability he already had. This is similar to Orochimaru's case. We know Oro's cursed seals contain his senjutsu chakra, but those who use his cursed seals are not Sage Mode users. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 02:13, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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:If Naruto had introduced the imbalance, the perfect sage pattern wouldn't have appeared on his face...it would look like Jiraiya's pattern if anything and in no way was it implied that Naruto gave the Preta Path imbalanced chakra...if anything he overloaded him with senjutsu chakra to turn him into a statue, but the statue turned into stone ''because'' it couldn't handle the senjutsu chakra. Yes Madara is a sensor, but to the degree of compensating the loss of his dojutsu, a major pillar in the Uchiha's fighting style? Kabuto did blind himself...he said at least once or twice to Itachi that he had cut off his eyesight to prevent eye based genjutsu. Why are you bringing Oro's cursed seals, when we know those were derived from Jugo's KKG...which ''is'' a different thing...however Madara did display the pattern signs of perfect sage control and remarked that he had to exert control over the chakra...all traits of a sage. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 02:23, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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::The focus on Naruto only happened when the shading around his eyes was all but over. Introducing an imbalance in the chakra would have snowballed in the Preta Path, leading to the petrification. Regarding Madara's sensing, what I'm saying is that even if he is using sage chakra, he's not using Sage Mode itself. I brought Orochimaru up because despite the cursed seals coming from Jūgo, the explicitly say that the cursed seals contain Orochimaru's senjutsu chakra. It's in the pages that show Orochimaru taking back his chakra from Kabuto. I still don't see pigmentation around Madara's own eyes, which according to Fukasaku are the sign of a true sage. Madara essentially took sage chakra someone else had a put in a graft battery. I'm saying that Madara is a similar situation to Orochimaru in which one has senjutsu chakra, but not Sage Mode itself. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 03:13, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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:::People keep saying that Hashi's face is a graft. Has no one ever assumed it was a mutation caused by the introduction of the First's Dna into one's body? Madara himself said that he infused the DNA into his wounds. So that's not a graft, its a mutation side effect, he didn't build and plaster a second Hashi face into his body, neither did Danzo. Its like having an extra limb...just because it's extra, what's done with it is still yours, your doing, possession and responsability. Also wasn't a similar discussion brought up, when someone wanted to separate senjutsu from sage mode? Wasn't it concluded that excluding Jugo/Oro's seals due to them being KKG-bound, that regular individuals were required to enter Sage Mode in order to use senjutsu. So unless you wanna unleash that box of scorpions again. The sage pattern appeared in Madara's face, in this case ''his second face''...and even if he did what you say he did sempai, he's still a sage at this point, since he still had to balance and control the senjutsu chakra he took in without the aid of a KKG...it maybe an atypical case, but the traits exibited by Madara are more aligned with ''Sage Mode'' than ''Sage/Cursed Seal Transformation''.[[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 03:29, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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: Madara is not using Sage Mode. He stole Hashirama's chakra and is using his "Hashirama face", if you will, to use ''Hashirama's'' Sage Mode. Therefore he is not a user. All this about him "controlling the chakra" is irrelevant and seems to be nothing more than a desperate attempt to list him as a user. It is A) Not his Senjutsu chakra, B) Not his Sage Mode, and C) Not his own body controlling it, but the "Hashirama face" doing it for him. He should not be listed whatsoever until he is shown using it on his own. Its absolutely no different that Kakashi and the other shinobi using Naruto's Kyūbi chakra after he gave it to them. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 04:08, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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:: So by that standart, please remove him (and everyone who's not Hashirama) as a Wood Release user, since he can only use it because of the "Hashirama face". Sure just toss aside one of the main pillars of sage mode/senjutsu, which is actually managing to not get turned into an animal statue, that makes perfect sense. "''Not his own body controlling it''"? Last time i checked...Hashi's face isn't detachable from Madara's body like a Lego piece, nor is it a tool of any kind, but a mutation caused by the integration of the First's DNA...Madara may be using Hashi's face, but that face is a part of Madara's body now, like anyother of his limbs so you saying he's using the face is like saying he's using the left arm instead of the right to swing a blade...its all part of his body...not originally sure, but it is now...that's like saying that a person who has an extra limb isn't responsible/can't control what that extra limb does...[[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 04:29, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
   
One thing is how it is translated, another thing is the name the translators agree on. There is a reason why the name translation of various things have that literaly. Besides consider that the frase Ero-Sennin, is ussualy translated into Pervetet Hermit or Erotic Hermit, only the dub have used Pervy-Sage.
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:::The precedent Kabuto created with his chest snake means that if you are in control of some freaky growth that can use some other technique, you are using that technique. So yeah, lets not try and think to stupid on this one. Madara is using Hashirama's Sage Mode, he gets listed as using Sage Mode.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 04:34, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
   
That is why i believe it is Hermit Mode, not Sage Mode. But come on and discuss it. [[User talk:Gojita]]
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::: No disrespect intended when I say this, but that has to be the most asinine reasoning for listing someone as a user I've ever heard. With Wood Release and Kabuto's snake... thing, the genetics of the person using the technique were apart of their new user; Wood Release in Danzo, Obito, Yamato, etc., and the Sound Four's in Kabuto. We saw him injecting the blood. Madara cannot use Sage Mode. He didn't absorb natural energy from the air and mix it with his chakra to make Senjutsu chakra, he stole the Senjutsu chakra Hashirama already had and used it through HASHIRMA's body parts that had been grafted into him. How the hell is that, in the sweet name of the baby Jesus, usage of Sage Mode? ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 06:58, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
   
==Warts==
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@Dark, to clarify, the Hash-chest-face is Kabuto's work as confirmed in the latest chapter, it didn't happen to Madara as he had gotten Hash's cells at all, just white skin. For the Sage Mode, yes, he is a user I believe, but if he should be listed as a Sage is questionable. As stated, it's the Hash-chest-face that has gotten the facial markings, not his own. And THIS IS EXACTLY why I brought up a while ago a forum about us listing users having KKG powers or otherwise as either them being temporary (transplant/experiment) or permanent (blood trait). So what does that tell us, true, he is no less user of Sage Mode now than Danzo was of Wood Release. Even tho he can do it only thanks to a foreign matter attached to his body, he had to control it and managed to and as such is a user. But a Sage has to be able to sense, absorb and balance natural energy himself, which he hasn't done. So short story: user of sage mode- yes but not a sage, reverse case of Orochimaru.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:17, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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::Mhm. The Spoken word. Glad to see you editing again Elveo. Sorry to just jump into this discussion. But i agree.--[[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 14:37, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
   
To whoever is removing the parts about Naruto having warts while in the Hermit Mode, stop. They are seen in his [http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/414/11/ face, arms, back and legs] and [http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/415/15/ right forearm]. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] 17:28, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
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:::Asinine it may be Ten Tailed Fox, but it is what it is. He has a freaky construct of Hashirama's face on his chest, he absorbed Hashirama's senjutsu chakra and is able to manipulate it under his own will. He himself may not be in Sage Mode, but he is using it. Unlike Danzo, Madara is in control of his stolen ability, Danzo was not. WHen he got messed up the Wood Release ran wild.
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:::That being said, he is not a sage because he didn't actively learn the art of senjutsu he just sucked it out of one person.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 16:18, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
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:::: I know he's not a Sage, but he doesn't even seem to be in the least bit familiar with Senjutsu chakra. "''So this is the coveted Senjutsu chakra.''" Doesn't say to me he even knows what he's doing. I mean, its like Omnibender said. Naruto gave ''everyone'' in the Alliance Kurama's chakra. Shoot, the Rookies even used a Tailed Beast Mode cloak. We're not listing them as psuedo-jinchūriki because they controlled that chakra, did we? No. Its no different here. I just don't like the faulty, paper-thin layer of logic that some seem to be using as an excuse to list him as a Sage Mode user. He's not. But, if that ends up being the consensus, I won't fight it. Just seems like a ''really'' big mistake to me. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 16:30, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
   
That is before he perfected it [http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/418/04/]his shirt is off and wearing shorts,he is clearly in hermit mode,and Fukasaku said himself that only his eyes where supposed to change as it was the sign of a true sage so that would be why he doesn't have warts on those areas anymore. Jiraiya never perfected it that is why he had warts unlike naruto now.[[User:WolfMaster|WolfMaster]] 01:47, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
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:::: Madara said that he thought he would have a hard time '''manipulating''' it. Might just be better to wait for Raws though.''[[User:UltimateSupreme|<span style="color:#0078ff; text-shadow: 0px 1px 0.4px #0054d3, -1px -1px 1px white, -2px -2px 6px #0093f4;">~Ultimate</span>]][[User talk:UltimateSupreme|<span style="color:#f00; text-shadow: 0px 1px 0.4px #f33, 1px 0px 1px white, 2px 2px 6px #f33, -2px -2px 6px #f33;">Supreme</span>]]'' 17:04, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
   
Then It should be mentioned in the Hermit Mode Section and not the True Hermit Mode Section. - [[User:Zero2001|Zero]] - [[User Talk:Zero2001|Talk]] 06:54, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
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TU3, what does Kabuto's navel snake have anything to do with this? The snake was never implicated in his use of Sage Mode, only in the skills he acquired from Orochimaru. He already had the snake while not in Sage Mode. The thing that sets Madara apart in this case, is that this isn't simply a case of grabbing a physical part of a third party and having access to its abilities. Madara already had the Hashigraft, and yet he had to go grab the senjutsu chakra from Hashirama himself. If he's at least aware of how senjutsu works, he'd certainly Gary Stu his way into mastering the whole process in half a heartbeat, like the overachiever he is, making the whole theft of the chakra pointless. Another example of non-use of technique, is Rasengan. Rookie 9 each took a Rasengan and slammed Obito with it, but we don't list them as users. Madara is the same thing. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 17:51, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
   
Just so it's noted, my previous argument was made while Naruto had yet to do the balance on the tile rock thing (as you can see in the date stamp), cause when he practiced with the oil, he still had warts. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 11:18, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
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Should it not be noted that Hashirama's SM increases regeneration? As Madara's wound from Sasuke's 'Kusanagi' explicitly healed up within a very short time after adopting the pseudo-SM. Maybe this is what Madara was referring to about Hashirama's Byakugou-esque healing? [[User:Pesa123456789|Pesa123456789]] ([[User talk:Pesa123456789|talk]]) 19:25, December 8, 2013 (UTC)
   
==Storing natural energy==
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Hash cells in themselves heal and shi* as shown with Obito, nothing with senjutsu. But I thought what healed Madara was QB chakra anyway--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:03, December 8, 2013 (UTC)
It seems like Naruto is able to store natural energy.Since he just now ran out of it from using the complete version of the rasenshuriken means that he doesn't have anything collecting natural energy for him and that he hasn't had the chance to figure out how to collect enrgy while moving either.[[User:WolfMaster|WolfMaster]] 20:53, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 
   
Natural energy is collected and stored automatically and then used untill it is depleted. Also I'd wait a while longer before I'd say that Naruto hasn't figured out how to overcome the weakness. He surprised us all in the last chapter and I'm sure he has figured out how to overcome the weakness. Wait before you give up on him. - [[User:Zero2001|Zero]] - [[User Talk:Zero2001|Talk]] 06:38, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
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:By the Light this is still going?
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::The snake has nothing to do with Sage Mode. I was pointing out that Kabuto pulled out Orochimaru and the Sound Five from the naval snake and we count him as having used their techniques and their kekkei genkai. Ergo, Madara pulling out Sage Mode and putting it into his Hashichestface and as he said he can manipulate it to mean means, unless we just decide to say "eff it" and decided just because all hate Madara that he isn't using Sage Mode, he is using Sage Mode.
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::And I thought i brought up the Rookie 9 thing. The Rookie Nine actually didn't do a damn thing. They jumped into Naruto's chakra, Naruto formed the Rasengans and all his friends did was push. They ain't manipulate nothing. It was the same thing when Naruto pushed Killer B's tailed beast ball through 30 barriers.
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:Now that being said, I'm already bored witht his discussion. If we want to say Madara is not using Sage Mode then I'm willing to just call everyone out for bullcrap but let it be removed without a fuss anyway so long as we also take into account Kabuto's actions with his weird body modifications.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 02:37, December 9, 2013 (UTC)
   
If done properly the time it takes to gather Natural energy and the time it takes to deplete should be around the same so that Naruto can continually have Sage chakara avalible to him through the continued replacement of his clones
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But the difference with Kabuto is that all those techniques, implants or not, originated within him, in his body. Madara already had the Hashirama face in him, and even them he had to go take the senjutsu chakra. That is what I think constitutes the Orochimaru-like situation of using senjutsu chakra, without actually using Sage Mode. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 00:12, December 10, 2013 (UTC)
   
== Sage/Hermit Mode--; ==
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== Questionable Content ==
   
In all honesty, it's basically the same thing. When it all boils down, that is the outcome - though since we have no hard evidence; you can dispute that all you wish. Now, I am sure we can all agree upon Naruto doing the impossible over and over - looking both left and right at the same time. How he does this, I can explain (though I bet most of you already know by now). When he left the Frog Mountain, Mount Myokubason (I cannot spell it for the love of god); he created two Kagebunshin to leave behind and collect the natural energy/senjutsu chakra. He had been in Sage Mode and left the mountain, appearing in Konohagakure safe, sound, and in Sage Mode -- as the fight with Pein progresses, he gradually depletes his Sage Chakra. He then takes the scroll that he now has, and uses it to reverse summon one clone from the mountain, and then dispersing it - thus giving him back his sage chakra and regular chakra (just like when happens when they disperse normally, their unused chakra gets split again, and their knowledge does too). So he gets his chakra back and returns into Sage Mode. Looking left and right at the same time; and gathering senjutsu chakra while moving~
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For some time now, the article has been broken up into sections more or less stating that there are different Sage Modes. In the past I've questioned the source of this, and I never felt I was given adequate justification, and certainly not in the vein that is usually demanded on the wiki. There seems to be zero mention in the manga by ANY practitioner of Sage Mode that what Hashirama and Kabuto do is any different, in terms of the basal technique, to what Naruto does.
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Now, one thing offered up is that Kabuto and Hashirama have different designs around their eyes, and that Fukasaku noted that Naruto had the eye designs of a true sage. Well, that's not accurate actually. All Fuksasaku said (Ch. 418 pg. 5) is that the dark pigmentation around the eyes are the mark of a true Sage, he never made mention or note of it being specifically a mark of a Toad Sage, or anything else, just that of one who has perfected Sage Mode. And given both Hashi and Kabuto fit that description, and made no mention of using some specific brand of SM, I'd put in my suggestion that the article be fixed to remove a lot of unfounded assumptions one must make for it to make sense. Thoughts? [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 07:29, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
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:At the very least, it could be separated by user, so we could say "Naruto Uzumaki's Sage Mode" or "Kabuto Yakushi's Sage Mode" instead of made-up names like Toad Sage Mode and Snake Sage Mode which imply different types. The current implication that each version has different strengths and weaknesses also seems unnecessary. Stating things like Kabuto's and Hashirama's not having enhanced durability because Sasuke's sword could cut them seems like a big assumption; Pain's rods could pierce Naruto after all.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 07:39, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
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::I really don't understand how there can be different sage modes. The sage mode is simply the state of ones body when it absorbed natural energy. There are no different kinds of natural energy one can absorb and we don't have the slightest explanation for why the absorbtion of the same energy results in different looks. So yes, I agree with Beyond, we should differ by user, not by looks. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 09:34, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
Though this transformation was "imperfect" he was able to use the sage mode to it's full potential, as the changes were just on the "outside" this comment seems unneasry and not backed up by evidence. He didnt use frog katas during close combat as an example and because the natural energy wasnt balanced there is reason to believe it was more than cosmetic
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:::Agreed Seelentau. It is just balancing natural energy with one's own inner energies after all. I think one thing we might do is simply mention that all known perfect sages (among humans anyway) had different designs around and on the eyes, but they all possessed the distinctive mark of a perfect Sage that Fukasaku mentioned. It avoids all extra assumptions but mentions how each user differs aethestically. But should we split it by user? I can't really think of anything in particular that Kabuto or Hashirama did with the form itself that was noticeably different from Naruto. They each just seemed to power-up their techniques. Suggestions? [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 13:44, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Activating Body ==
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::::Hey Skitts long time no see, I was wondering where you have gone to ^_ And yes, thank you for bringing up again one of my favorite unresolved and ignored topics!!! Now, all we have to do is await for naysayers and unnamed sysops to come and paste a giant red NO on our foreheads to prove their might and ignorance. I'm not having anyone specific in particular on my mind of course :D Just generally speaking about those who disagree. And yes, there should be a single section listing all the benefits of Sage Mode, not for "different" modeS since there are none other and a removal of the animal labels as well. There is just this weird phenomenon for those who were taught by snakes turn into snakes, those that by toads into toads etc. so there's where the assumptions of different modes come from--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:50, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Hey. Real life (school and work), hobbies and forgetfulness kept me away. I still checked in every so often, just never got involved. xD Anyway, I'd question whether individuals who were taught by snakes would turn into snakes. We've never seen Kabuto loose control of natural energy, so the safest assumption is that he would turn into a toad as Naruto nearly did and the Preta Path actually did. Kabuto was already a snake, after all. :) Sage Mode just seemed to enhance his snake-related abilities, which is unsurprising given Fukasaku mentioned one's abilities are increased by it (ex: Naruto's healing rate and stamina). [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 14:45, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
If Fakasuka said that it activates the body and this is the last piece of information from his training. So it should be put, and I put like eight gates because it also activates the body in a number of ways like hermit mode. So I say we should put that little piece of information. [[User:Cooltamerboy|Cooltamerboy]] ([[User talk:Cooltamerboy|talk]]) 21:03, 23 July 2009 (UTC).
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::::::But Preta Path having turned stone toad statue is a problem, isn't it? This for one gives evidence to their assertion of "animal specific" modes. But why would Kabuto have turned into a toad had he failed to master it? That would have implied Sage Mode having origins with the toads. Only good thing is that if that were true, it would actually take away credibility to their assertion of different modes, because it would mean every single Sage Mode is "toad sage mode" So basically both evidence for and against appear to be contradictory to the explanation as why that happens.
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::::::If everyone turns into a toad no matter what, it means a single Sage Mode, if it differs from person to person (which we are yet to see) then that doesn't necessarily mean many different modes :) So I think there's more evidence for a single Sage Mode--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:57, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
:Your comparison to the Eight Gates is completely unnecessary. The fact that Sage Mode provides a number of abilities is mentioned several times. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 21:55, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
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:::There seems to be no need to divide it into sections. All are basically the same. Probably a '''Known Sage Modes''' or something similar in the end might work.--''[[User:UltimateSupreme|<span style="color:#0078ff; text-shadow: 0px 1px 0.4px #0054d3, -1px -1px 1px white, -2px -2px 6px #0093f4;">~Ultimate</span>]][[User talk:UltimateSupreme|<span style="color:#f00; text-shadow: 0px 1px 0.4px #f33, 1px 0px 1px white, 2px 2px 6px #f33, -2px -2px 6px #f33;">Supreme</span>]]'' 15:04, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
Not number of abilities. I mean that it does things to the body other than allow natural chakra which is yet to be explained what it did to the body. It is similar to the eight gates because it also does things to the body. It might even be doing the same things as the Eight Gates. Now you know why? [[User:Cooltamerboy|Cooltamerboy]] ([[User talk:Cooltamerboy|talk]]) 22:08, 23 July 2009 (UTC).
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::@Elveonora The Preta Path example is the one that best supports the idea of a single Sage Mode. Remember, all Naruto did was pass on natural energy (or maybe senjutsu chakra) to him through his absorption technique, and the Preta Path, who had no known affiliation with any Sage location, still turned into a toad. And this doesn't indicate necessarily that Sage Mode originated with the toads (although it wouldn't really matter), as Fukasaku just said that a toad transformation and pretrification were the natural effects of not controlling the natural energy, not that it had anything to do with who Naruto was affiliated with when learning it. So given Kabuto drew in natural energy for the mode as all Sages do, the best assumption is that improper use would result in a toad transformation.
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:Well, I guess I'll get to it then. Or should we wait for more yays and nays? [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 15:35, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
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::Maybe we should look at the broader picture of natural energy. The Shinju, natural energy embodied, originally a tree, has taken upon MANY form. Shapeshifting/transformation is a trait of natural energy it would appear. Same for Jugo's Clan and Curse Mark users, they all have different forms. And as such I don't like the notion of every Senjutsu School dropout turning into a toad and would like to ignore the Preta Path instance altogether. Perhaps Kishi didn't give it as much thought as we do. I like to convince myself that the form they take is dependent on their personality traits. This would explain why for example Jugo, who has unstable mind can shapeshift into many things, while Curse Mark users who did not get the madness part all have just a single form.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:51, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Well now, that's the kind of speculation we're trying to remove from the article. :) What the Shinju does is kind of irrelevant here, it's the origin of all chakra too after all, and chakra has all sorts of uses. We already know there's a shapeshifting element to natural energy, just look at what happened to Jiraiya. Jugo's clan is something of a special case, in that it's their Kekkai Genkai that allows them to do shapeshifting after absorbing a little natural energy, and Orochimaru's Curse Marks are just an imitation of that. And not to sound mean, but it doesn't really matter what you want to be the case, but Fukasaku did note that a toad transformation and petrification is the drawback to improper Sage Mode, with no qualifications. The Preta Path instance cannot be ignored because it was a demonstration of that, with Fukasaku confirming that when it happened. Oh, and madness IS a part of the Curse Mark. Remember, one of the Sound Four told Sasuke that if he remained in the Curse Mark Leve 2 state for too long, he would begin to loose control mentally (Jugo's clan) and the energy would take over his body (like improper Sage Mode). [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 16:22, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
:I'd call anything beneficial it does to the body (ie. improved durability) an ability. Again, comparing it to Eight Gates is unnecessary. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 03:33, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
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It was said that they would become like Orochimaru, not like Jugo. And I know we are trying to remove speculation, I was speaking hypothetically what would fit and make sense to me. The article just needs to be streamlined without actually removing anything. @Seel, would you look at it?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:53, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
Ok. I just have one question for you. It might have activated the same things that the eight gates activated right (as the things hermit mode has done are extremely similar)? [[User:Cooltamerboy|Cooltamerboy]] ([[User talk:Cooltamerboy|talk]]) 23:50, 24 July 2009 (UTC).
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:Sometimes I think we're the most backward wikia. I really wish that we could agree upon one thing, stick with it, and wait for clarification. Instead we beat dead horses, and those amongst us that were enlightened by JesusBuddhAllaHindugods but walks amongst us lowly humans finds every opportunity to undermine the wiki they can't walk away from. Not you Turry, how u doin~
   
:Doubtful. When the Eight Gates activate something the user is damaged afterwards. When Sage Mode activates something the user is fine afterwards. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 03:31, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
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:Any way, we all are supposed to know by now that Sage Mode is just that - Sage mode. We tried to differentiate them because they aren't all the same. Modes learned through different methods reflect differently on persons. Toads look like toads, snakes look more like snakes. Are we supposed to ignore that? Are we supposed to differentiate Naruto's Mode from Jiraiya's even though they both learned from toads? To me the sections explains each usage as accurately as possible. If the pseudo-titles are that much of a bother, they can be changed but we can't lump them all together and ignore the obvious differences. --[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 17:17, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
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::That's the thing, Kabuto looked like that even without Sage Mode, it just gave him horns. Curse Mark gave Kimimaro- the bone guy, more bones, yet we don't consider that to be the Curse Mark's specific trait. We don't have any reason to believe that without Kabuto's prior experiments he would have looked any different than Naruto, with just the eyes changing. So the only "anomaly" is Hashirama, he we can say has "specific" mode until we learn more. But the animal labels irk me, also there's no reason to repeat "improved strength, speed etc." for each users, it's same for all.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:26, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
Because Sage Mode has natural chakra helping naruto instead of damaging. I'm just asking if sage mode might have activated the same spots that eight gates opened. Right? [[User:Cooltamerboy|Cooltamerboy]] ([[User talk:Cooltamerboy|talk]]) 04:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC).
 
:Judging from chapter 409 page 11, the sage chakra simply makes the body stronger. The similarities with the gates are just coincidence. [[User:Jacce|Jacce]] | [[User talk:Jacce|Talk]] 06:30, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 
   
There is one or two things you guys seem to overlook. The eight gates is a technique that unleashes the full potential of the body by releasing all possible chakra a person has and that is the reason it damages the body. The gates are placed and used so the body doesn't automatically go all out in a fight and therefore damage itself. Naruto's sage/hermit mode is different in that the energy used is from nature-- added on to his already large normal chakra store. This does NOT include his jinchuriki chakra. The point im trying to make is Naruto isn't damaged by this "natural boost" because he doesn't generate it, he merely collects it and manipulates it for his own use. Now if we were speaking of Naruto's combined Sage/ Nine tail's form- then perhaps he would be damaged internally and be in pain, much like Rock lee is in his Eight Gates transformation. The reason being, both the Eight gates and the Jinchuriki chakra are internally stored chakra that are kept that way to prevent damage--- releasing the bulk of both types of chakra is too much damage for both naruto and Lee to take.
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This whole thing is problematic entirely because of Kabuto as far as I can tell. He's the only one that has other animal traits in Sage Mode, but one can't forget that he was a snake beforehand. My only problem is that it seems the only real reason we have the article like it is because Kabuto shenanigans. And I'm good Cerez. How goes you browski? [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 17:30, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
--[[User:Ironspidermke|Ironspidermke]] ([[User talk:Ironspidermke|talk]]) 18:55, March 13, 2010 (UTC)
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:Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we already have "toad sage mode" before Kabuto was even revealed to be a Sage Mode user?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:32, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
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::Nope. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 17:34, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
== The pictures ==
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:Cerez reflects my issue with lumping all of the Sage Mode styles together. Basically when you want to get down to it, yes there everything is Sage Mode. But then you get into the seperate styles: Naruto and Jiraiya learned Sage Mode from the toads. Kabuto and Orochimaru learned Sage Mode from the snakes (tho Kabuto was the only one who could make actual use of it).--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 21:26, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
The HQ picture of Sage Mode Jiraiya,and Sage-Kyuubi Naruto are messed up(Then again,it might just be my computer)
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"He's the only one that has other animal traits in Sage Mode" ~ Skitts
   
Never mind
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Not true, Jiraiya's hands, feet and face all took on toad like traits because he wasn't a "Perfect" sage. At the same time, in Sage mode, both Jiraiya and Naruto's eyes gain horizontal slits, whereas Kabuto gained vertical slits, which, given what happened with Kurama's power and sage mode, if the horizontal slit is indicative of Sage mode, and his eyes had the slit as a result of experimentation, shouldn't he has + shaped eyes too? Jugo, as the only example of his clan's ability without tampering, has no defined animal trait, but unsurpassed transformation properties compared to the rest. Hashirama's Sage form comes with markings unlike the others, but no particular animal trait or transformation from what we've seen. While all these characters possess a Sage Mode, or in Jugo's case a transformation related to the absorption of natural energy, none of them except the two trained by Toads share traits beyond facial marking, so saying that all Sage modes are the same is a lot more inaccurate than splitting them up. Even if they are mechanically the same, superficial things like the different facial markings and mutation from failure are seemingly independent of one another.--[[User:Hawkeye2701|Hawkeye2701]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye2701|talk]]) 21:47, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
gohanRULEZ 23:33, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 
   
If you are reffering to colored pictures then do not upload them.[[User:Kyuubinaruto123|Kyuubinaruto123]] ([[User talk:Kyuubinaruto123|talk]]) 23:36, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
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:Hawkeye, you do realize I was talking about people who complete Sage Mode, right? Hence why I only brought up Naruto, Kabuto and Hashirama in that instance. Further, Kabuto ALREADY had vertical slits before Sage Mode, as well as most of all the animal traits. All he gained were horns as far as we can tell. Saying that all Sage Modes are the same is the most canonical thing to say given statements by Fukasaku that I've already mentioned, namely that the defining mark of a Sage is dark pigmentation around the eyes. He didn't make not of any particular design, but of dark pigment alone, which both Hashirama and Kabuto certainly had. And come on man, NO WHERE have we seen mutation from misuse be anything other than turning into a toad (i.e Preta Path and Naruto). We've never seen Kabuto or Hashi loose control, so you've no leg to stand on for your case.
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::@TU3 What do you mean by different styles? Different teachers sure, but I can't recall any display of anything specific to a particular user of Sage Mode, aside from individual techniques. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 22:12, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
== sage chakra ==
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:::It means exactly as it sounds. While there is one Sage Mode, there are three known styles of it: Toad, which Naruto and Jiraiya use, Snake, which Kabuto can do and Orochimaru knows about, and Whatever-the-Eff-Hashirama-Does which Hashirama does. Trying to change it to imply that each Sage Mode is unique to the user implies that the toads at Mount Myōboku can teach someone how to grow brille over their eyes, or a snake from the Ryochi caves can teach someone Frog Kata.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 22:49, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
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::::I could have sworn at one point that the article had an I commented mention that there was no such things as Toad or Snake Sage mode and that they are simply there out of convenience of us chronicling the information. The longer titles like "Sage Mode - taught by toads/snakes" would be bad for linking them in other articles.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 01:59, January 14, 2014 (UTC)
   
whats the diference betven normal chakra and sage chakra? by:jaksa sage
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Okay, so I figured I'd get to this since there seems to be basic agreement. So my thought is to essentially remove the noticeable implication that there are distinct-ish Sage Modes, and merge them, give the general effects that Sagee Mode has been confirmed to have. Kabuto didn't display anything fundamentally or substantively different from Naruto, the Toads or Hashirama, so we seem good there. I think the only important thing to note is, as I said earlier, that while all of the designs of completed Sage Mode users differ, yet they all possessed the distinctive marker of a true sage that Fukasaku mentioned (dark pigment around the eyes). We good? We good. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 01:42, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
   
:In my understanding normal chakra chakra = physical energy + spiritual. In other words, it is simply your mental and physical potential manifested into "chakra energy" for a ninja's use. Sage chakra is when a ninja learns senjutsu and learns to gather the energy all around us...dubbed "nature" or "sage" chakra. Thus Sage chakra is like an addition to a ninjas normal chakra, not a replacement. --[[User:Ironspidermke|Ironspidermke]] ([[User talk:Ironspidermke|talk]]) 18:56, March 13, 2010 (UTC)
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:The subsections are probably still neccesary to some extent. It could be organised like the Susanoo article - a general overview talking about how it works and what it does (enhanced jutsu, strength, speed, perception, etc.), then subsections for Jiraiya, Naruto, Kabuto, and Hashirama. The subsections could talk about things specific to each user, like Frog Kata, Muki Tensei, Jiraiya forming toad feet, etc. as well as Naruto's method of entering the Sage Mode. This way no unofficial terms are used at all, but all the information is still present and organised.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 02:34, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
::Not true. Sage chakra is a combination of regular chakra and Natural energy. Natural energy is the energy gathered from nature. <font color="#0000A0"><del>¥</del> [[User:SuperN|S<small>uper</small> N<small>ovice</small>]] [[Special:Random|↔]] [[User talk:SuperN|T<small>alk</small> <sup>2</sup> M<small>e</small>]] <del>¥</del></font> 18:53, March 13, 2010 (UTC)
 
   
thanks for the correction...I wasn't compleletly sure...I was actually looking that up until i saw your post--[[User:Ironspidermke|Ironspidermke]] ([[User talk:Ironspidermke|talk]]) 18:56, March 13, 2010 (UTC)
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::As stated in the edit summary, yeah the last comment (Cerez) implies the discussion was still moving, it just fell off. Good job starting it up again. Maybe this time we can actually get to a conclusion.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 03:12, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
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:::EDIT:And maybe simply just undo my edit and reinstate Skitts. From my first pass of it it doesn't seem wrong, if only a tad formated oddly (It looks weird to me. Probably fine, just looks strange to my old man eyes.)
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:::And for reference, there is Skitt's version of the page [[User:TheUltimate3/Sage Mode|Click me]].--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 03:17, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Do note that I did all of this because i do like to get a clear end of a discussion. If nobody does say anything, I will consider this the end and make Skitt's version official anyway.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 03:19, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Extra Lines ==
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(edit conflict times 2)
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@BeyondRed Huh? Muki Tensei is a technique, not a special ability of Kabuto's Sage Mode, Frog Kata is just a fighting-style and Naruto doesn't do anything special in entering Sage Mode. Those subsections are somewhat redundant. The only useful one you mentioned would be the one for Jiraiya, but only because his is the only imperfect transformation we've seen. The others seem superfluos, and the way it is currently lends itself to the unmistakeable implication that Hashiram and Kabuto are doing something distinct from Naruto, which we have no evidence for. The current setup itself is using unofficial terms.
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@TU3 It did? All that Cerez seems to be saying is some of the rationale behind the usage of the terms. If he was, my mistake. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 03:21, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
   
I know thi may be a dumb Question, but why does jiraya put extra lines on his face before summoning Fukasaku, and Shima and activating The Sage Mode
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:I didn't mean to imply Frog Kata was exclusive to Naruto and that, say, Hashirama couldn't potentially use it because his Sage Mode looks different, that's the sort of speculation that is the current problem. Rather, I think it should be clear that while nothing states other users with "different" Sage Modes can't do certain things (like Frog Kata or Muki Tensei), nothing confirms they can either. At the very least, the article should still have images and descriptions of the four different Sage Modes we've seen, doesn't really have to be in subsections, but that could be a way of organising it so the main section doesn't feel cluttered.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 05:26, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
   
:Im not sure if im 100% right, but i believe its because he has not yet perfected the Sage mode, as shown when his fore arms and feet become toad like.--[[User:KingBarragan|Shiraha Manjitomoe]] ([[User talk:KingBarragan|talk]]) 00:58, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
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Why is it that no one here has ever thought of there being different types of natural energy? Natural energy comes from the ground and the air, emanating from plants and animals, right? So why wouldn't the natural energy be different? Mount Myoboku and Ryuuchi cave both have large populations of toads and snakes respectively, right? So would it not make sense for most of the natural energy to be emanating from them? And that those who train in those places, learn to absorb those specific energies? Has anyone here noticed that almost every cursed seal release resembles actual animals? (If not, go to Orochimaru's Juinjutsu and look at the prison picture). And how Jugo, one that can absorb natural energy innately, can change into anything he wants? Am I seriously the only one here that knows how to put two and two together to realize that what animal you transform into is dependent on what energy you learn to absorb, and other than that, the abilities are the same? Because the way I see it, its the only logical conclusion, and the fact that there are so many that don't understand that disturbs me. [[User:MangekyoSasuke|MangekyoSasuke]] ([[User talk:MangekyoSasuke|talk]]) 05:45, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
   
::Those lines are the blood contract that allow Jiraiya to summon Fukasaku and Shima into his own body. --[[User:ShounenSuki|ShounenSuki]] <sup>([[User_talk:ShounenSuki|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/ShounenSuki|contribs]])</sup> 01:00, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
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:I actually have thought of that exact thing before and hope it does turn out to be the explanation, but it's still speculation. We can't but information into the article if it can't be referenced or even directly implied.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 06:30, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
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:That doesn't explain why Kabuto turns into a snake-dragon when there are no snakes around. The same goes for Naruto. How can he turn into a frog sage when there are no frogs around, whose nature energy would be absorbed by Naruto? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 09:17, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
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::Wrong :P Naruto ate a toad and Kabuto had a snake merged with him... /solved?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:35, January 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Naisu try but no. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 21:59, January 24, 2014 (UTC)
   
== where? ==
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On topic, Ulti's/Skitt's version looks very good, one more time should it be compared and checked and unless someone will come to disagree, used asap.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:57, January 24, 2014 (UTC)
   
It was currently shown that Naruto can achieve the stat of super perfect sage mode, which give him full power over all five elements... where is this shown??? it is not in the manga [[User:Fawcettp|Fawcettp]] ([[User talk:Fawcettp|talk]]) 12:06, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
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:The only thing I would want to add is that training under a certain animal leads to a different style. I don't like how Skitt's version reads as if Kabuto just became a snake Sage for no reason at all. In fact I don't think it even mention the Ryuchi Caves at all.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 23:02, January 24, 2014 (UTC)
*Vandalism. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 14:38, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
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::As much information should be preserved, just without bias, speculation and vagueness. In the advantages part, it should be added that the user may learn senjutsu techniques unique to his/her animal species, like frog kata from toads, light and stone no jutsu from snakes and so on.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:07, January 24, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Five Clones ==
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@BeyondRed Huh? Again, Muki Tensei is just senjutsu, and Frog Kata just a fighting-style. Saying there's no evidence other Sages can't use them is absurd given the series explanations on what ninjustus and chakra manipulation is. If you have the necessary skills to us e a technique, barring any genetic requirement, the technique can be used. Muki Tensei is just senjutsu, ergo other Sages can use it if they knew how, given what we know about chakra manipulation; Frog Kata is useable by any true Sage according to Fukasaku (right after Naruto first entered a completed SM), provided they've learned how.
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*As for why Kabuto changes, that's a little speculatory. My version of the article does note that particular oddity about Kabuto without speculating as to the reason. If we absolutely have to, the most canonical thing would be to go to what Fukasaku said about Sage Mode boosting one's natural abilities. He noted that both Sage Mode and Kurama's chakra boosted Naruto's healing rate to absurd levels. This could account for why Kabuto progresses. He was already a snake, and SM's boosting shows true what Fuksaku said about SM, by making him a 'dragon'. The other relevant problem is Kabuto's DNA tomfoolery, so I doubt even Fukasaku would be exactly sure why. And Kabuto was already a snake, so asking why SM made him a snake is nonsensical. :p
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But again, that's more speculatory than I'm comfortable putting in the article as definite.[[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 03:42, January 25, 2014 (UTC)
   
Okay my memory is acting poorly today but where does it say Naruto's number of shadow clones are limited to five when using Sage Mode? <font color="#0000A0"><del>¥</del> [[User:SuperN|S<small>uper</small> N<small>ovice</small>]] [[Special:Random|↔]] [[User talk:SuperN|T<small>alk</small> <sup>2</sup> M<small>e</small>]] <del>¥</del></font> 05:46, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
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Bump--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:34, January 30, 2014 (UTC)
:He used two to help him crate a Rasenshuriken, and he left two at Myobokuzan to help im in Sage Mode. If you assume that was all he could make, his limit was only 4 clones, and 2 of them being essential to using Sage Mode in combat.--[[User:TheUltimate3|TheUltimate3]] ([[User talk:TheUltimate3|talk]]) 05:56, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
 
:While that is true it's still not restricting him to 4 or 5 like the article says. I'm going to remove that part then since as I strolled through the manga couldn't find anything stating his restriction. <font color="#0000A0"><del>¥</del> [[User:SuperN|S<small>uper</small> N<small>ovice</small>]] [[Special:Random|↔]] [[User talk:SuperN|T<small>alk</small> <sup>2</sup> M<small>e</small>]] <del>¥</del></font> 06:05, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
 
:In chapter 434 Naruto says he can only make three clones for battle and two for gathering natural energy.--[[User:Deva 27|Deva 27]] ([[User talk:Deva 27|talk]]) 06:08, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
 
::Ah okay. Thank you Deva27. <font color="#0000A0"><del>¥</del> [[User:SuperN|S<small>uper</small> N<small>ovice</small>]] [[Special:Random|↔]] [[User talk:SuperN|T<small>alk</small> <sup>2</sup> M<small>e</small>]] <del>¥</del></font> 06:11, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
 
   
== New pic ==
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:Already said my peace. Skitts version is fine, I would just suggest adding different areas appear to form different styles.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:36, January 30, 2014 (UTC)
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::Action > words :P--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:20, February 10, 2014 (UTC)
   
I hate the new pic its kinnda stupid it looks so..... i don't even have the words for that --[[User:Petar93|Petar93]] ([[User talk:Petar93|talk]]) 11:39, April 11, 2010 (UTC)
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Just wanting to say those who revised this page did a excellent job. That is all :) --[[User:Questionaredude|Questionaredude]] ([[User talk:Questionaredude|talk]]) 19:59, February 22, 2014 (UTC)
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: Surprised no one mentioned, ''at all'' in this discussion that the reason why each Sage Mode should be separate is because each seem to enhance the user's physical abilities differently. Toad Sage Mode gives Naruto, Minato, and Jiraiya enhanced durability, speed, and strength from the feats they've shown. Snake Sage Mode enhances maneuverability, speed and agility, while keeping durability and strength the same as shown in Kabuto. And Hashirama's Sage Mode grants increased endurance and enhances his regeneration, as shown through Madara. All have shown different physical aspects that are actually improved.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 03:42, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
Hey to make Naruto's Sage Mode infinite why don't he uses one of Pain's Chakra Receivers so that one clone can be gathering the natural energy and he fights with a non-gone Sage Mode {{unsigned|190.32.110.53}}
+
: Because that is your opinion and has no place in this article. When someone mentions that Toad/Hashirama/Snake Sage Mode has any variations between the augmentation they offer, then we'll add it, but we don't just add what we come up with off the top of our head to articles. That's called speculation. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 03:59, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Dispelling Genjutsu ==
+
:: I think you need to look up what speculation actually is. Kishimoto has been distinct on the physical enhancements Sage Mode gave those from the different disciplines. Do you see Kabuto ''tossing boss summons around?'' Especially when he failed to send Itachi fly back with a strike? Or Hashirama/Madara doing the same thing? And the durability varies wildly: only Madara's [[Chakra Disruption Blades]] have pierced Toad Sage Mode skin, while both Hashirama's and Kabuto's have been pierced by a normal blade. Seriously, feats show it. I've even ''added'' them in the past. Not everything needs to be spelled out, this is a logical conclusion.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 04:30, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
Every since I saw Sage Mode I've been wondering could if it could dispell genjutsu. It should technically be able to since external chakra is entering the user but who knows. With his victory in his battle against the Kyuubi, the point could be moot, except that the Sharingan can supress its power =_=
+
That's just your assumption. By the same logic (since Naruto could lift and throw a giant boulder) he could have just thrown Pain away from Konoha, sending him on a tour around the world, yet he didn't.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:24, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
[[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 21:03, July 4, 2010 (UTC)
 
   
== Parent technique ==
+
== Slug Sage Mode ==
   
I notice that at the moment, the only technique which lists Sage Mode as a parent technique is Frog Kata. Since to use senjutsu requires one to be in Sage Mode, wouldn't it be logical for all senjutsu techniques to have Sage Mode as a parent technique? Or grandparent technique if the parent technique is already derived from Sage Mode? [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 18:31, January 4, 2011 (UTC)
+
Due to the fact that Sage Mode can be learned from the Toad Sages at Mount Myoboku, from the Snake Sage at the Ryuchi Cave, and we have learned that the slug Katsuyu comes from the Shikkotsu Forest. A place stated to be equally famous to Mount Myoboku and the Ryuchi Cave. It is heavily implied that there are slug sages at the Shikkotsu Forest where one can learn Sage Mode from them. Hashirama Senju, is capable of using a third unknown Sage Mode. Considering his granddaughter, Tsunade, can summon slugs and is called the Slug Princess it is likely that his Sage Mode is the Sage Mode learned from the slugs. Also due to the fact that slugs appear to be aligned with healing and Madara Uchiha stated that he had obtained Hashirama's regenerative abilities (after obtaining his Sage Mode) would this not further imply that he had learned his Sage Mode from the slugs? Also due to the whole toad, snake, and slug symbolism it would make sense. I know it isn't a fact so it cannot be stated. But I think it has enough evidence to be added into the trivia section perhaps? Thoughts anyone? [[User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4]] ([[User talk:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|talk]]) 03:46, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
:Anyone? [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 18:45, January 6, 2011 (UTC)
 
::Sounds logical to me. —[[User:ShounenSuki|ShounenSuki]] <sup>([[User_talk:ShounenSuki|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/ShounenSuki|contribs]] | [[User:ShounenSuki#Translations|translations]])</sup> 19:12, January 6, 2011 (UTC)
 
:::Well, it's been three days, enough for anyone who wanted to oppose this to voice an opinion, and I bumped this discussion once. I'm making the change. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 18:23, January 7, 2011 (UTC)
 
::::By the way, I'm going to poke an old issue: Rasenshuriken. Should it be considered senjutsu? We know the technique is usable to some extent without Sage Mode, but it was only while in Sage Mode that he completed the technique. At the moment, it is listed as senjutsu, but I haven't added the Sade Mode as a parent technique yet precisely because it has been used without it. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 18:37, January 7, 2011 (UTC)
 
:::::Techniques like that are always annoying... —[[User:ShounenSuki|ShounenSuki]] <sup>([[User_talk:ShounenSuki|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/ShounenSuki|contribs]] | [[User:ShounenSuki#Translations|translations]])</sup> 18:55, January 7, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
== Homage? ==
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: For all we know, Hashirama didn't even learn Sage Mode from an animal. We don't know what he summons ''if'' he even summons an animal to begin with. There is no evidence. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 04:00, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
Its curious, i was watching a dragon ball episode, when Goku and Vegeta transform into SSJ4, i noticed the red coloration around the eyes and i thought about the admiration kishimoto has to akira toriyama, could this be like a homage or tribute to that by adding the coloration to the full sage mode eyes? {{unsigned|ToonLiger}}
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The only known ways so far is via an animal. So where else could he learn it? --[[User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4]] ([[User talk:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|talk]]) 04:25, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
No. That's like saying some of the hairstyles are from other anime. [[User:SusanooUnleashed|SusanooUnleashed]] ([[User talk:SusanooUnleashed|talk]]) 00:05, March 3, 2011 (UTC)
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It was stated there was 3 special places that taught senjutsu i believe, the bone forest place, mt. miyoboku and ryuchi cave and orochimaru said the slugs come from bone forest place or whatever. so yes it is VERY likely and possible that that is where Hashi learned it, but it can only be added when confirmed. [[User:ItachiWasAHero|ItachiWasAHero]] ([[User talk:ItachiWasAHero|talk]]) 04:42, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
== other sage modes ==
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: No, it said that the "Ryūichi Cave is a place of equal fame to Myōbokuzan and the Shikkotsu Forest". ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 04:44, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
do all animals that can hav a contract hav a sage or is it just frogs like could there be a snake/hawk/dog/slug sage and if not y {{Unsigned|99.90.132.45}}
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That that's the name, but he is right Senjutsu is only known to have been taught or stolen like in madara's case. It was also hinted at one point that you did not need a contract to find these places or learn senjutsu there. [[User:ItachiWasAHero|ItachiWasAHero]] ([[User talk:ItachiWasAHero|talk]]) 04:49, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
:We don't know. --[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez]]☻ 12:09, March 25, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
== Sage mode without Toad Elders ==
 
   
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v44/c410/16.html
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Yes, that's true. But the fact that toads come from Mount Myoboku and there is toad sages there, snakes come from the Ryuchi Cave and there is a snake sage there, and we have learned that there is a Shikkotsu Forest and that the slug Katsuyu comes from there. Especially since Hashirama has a third unknown Sage Mode and so far the previous two sage modes have been Toad and Snake, in order to keep the toad, snake, and slug symbolism it would make since for Hashirama to have a "Slug Sage Mode". But it's true it isn't a fact or officially confirmed. Which is why I suggested adding it to trivia. There is more evidence and similar abilities that hint at it being Slug Sage Mode. So that's why I believe it should be listed in the trivia section. --[[User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4]] ([[User talk:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|talk]]) 04:55, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
the above page shows him in sage mode without the elders.
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: My point is, until we have definite proof, we're steering away from speculation. I actually think Hashirama's Sage Mode is related to the slugs myself, but, professionally, that just doesn't belong in an article. Just because Tsunade is his granddaughter doesn't mean he shares her summons, that he has a contract with a slug (the reference you mention, Itachi, is anime-only, and therefore we must throw that out with regards to manga information. You need a contract to summon), or that he learned Sage Mode where the slugs reside. And you're missing another point. The three locations mentioned (for snakes, toads, and slugs) are only noted to be famous. For all we know, there are other places to learn senjutsu. There are just too many unknowns to say for sure. I suggest just letting it go until we get a new databook or clarification in a later chapter. Because, by your logic, we'd have to list Tsunade as a Sage because Orochimaru and Jiraiya learned Senjutsu, so therefore she must've learned it too. See where that kind of loose ends logic leads? Not very productive. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 05:02, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v41/c376/1.html
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Alright, I guess you're right. It would be better to wait a little longer until another source of info is released that confirms what Sage Mode Hashirama is using. I get your point. I'll just go ahead and leave this topic alone until further confirmation. --[[User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4]] ([[User talk:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|talk]]) 05:07, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
and here he compares himself as a "tadpole" and not that he can't do it at all on his own. He just sucks real bad when doing it alone.[[User:NoJutsu|NoJutsu]] ([[User talk:NoJutsu|talk]]) 17:57, September 19, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
Okay, I can see this is going to end up becoming an edit war if things continue like this. Jiraya cannot keep up Sage Mode without Fukasaku and Shima using their [[Sage Art: Amphibian Technique|Amphibian Technique]]. He can enter it alone, but only for a short time;that was the whole point behind Jiraya summoning them: so that he could move around and still be receiving senjutsu chakra. Please quit adding it. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 20:42, September 19, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
I'm sure of you read the article, you'd realise that the risk of standing still to re-enter Sage Mode constantly on a battlefield is a huge risk. This is the whole point of the Sage Art: Amphibian Technique.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 21:12, September 19, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
Ah, I understand what No Jutsu meant, I think. It's been fixed now, I think.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 21:27, September 19, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
I'm still unsure what he meant, but whatever, the article looks better than before so it's all good. :-) [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 21:51, September 19, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
== Speed entering the Mode ==
 
 
I see there were a few edits recently about the speed in which Naruto has entered Sage Mode. Didn't Naruto enter it very quickly before he met Konan and Nagato at the outskirts of Konoha? He wasn't in Sage Mode when he met Shikaku and Inoichi, but he entered it very fast once he got to the tree. Or am I remembering in the manga something that only happened in the anime? [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:19, January 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
:We don't see when he entered Sage Mode in the manga. Unless I'm mistaken the anime only showed him finishing entering Sage Mode, we didn't actually see how long it took.--'''''[[User talk:Deva 27|Deva]] [[Special:Contributions/Deva 27|27]]''''' 23:38, January 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
::When he went to Nagato we only see him arrive at the tree [last pages of chapter 443]. I don't think there was ever an instance where it took long though outside of when Preta was absorbing his chakra.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 00:22, January 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
:::Originally he took a while to enter the mode-such as during his battle with pain when he's caught by the Preta Path, it takes him some time to gather the energy which turns him to stone. By the time of the Shinobi war, he can enter the mode so quickly that the guards watching over him and Bee couldn't react at all; the battle with madara, he was quick enough to enter the mode and throw the rasenshuriken before madara could do massive amounts of damage to the division. Then there's the clone inside Son Gokú- considering on the outside the Ape was dealing with Tobi's chakra chains, an attacking Naruto and the eight tails going near full force at it, the clone on the inside wouldn't have had much a still moment at all-he'd have had to enter the mode extremely quickly. [[User:Scorn53|Scorn53]]
 
::::Like I said before the [[Preta Path]] ability is to absorb ninjutsu (chakra). That cannot be used as a benchmark.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 01:07, January 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Sage mode clones? ==
 
 
How many clones can Naruto make in Sage mode? people say 5 but when he fought the kyuubi he made lot's and if this is because of the location then in that location the rules should still apply unless he could do anything he wanted to in that location.{{unsigned|89.240.176.223}}
 
:Naruto stated that he could only make three clones while on the battlefield while in Sage Mode without disrupting the other two he had absorbing natural energy. That fight happened in his mind and to be honest, a lot of what was done in there probably couldn't be applied to a real-world fight.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 15:55, January 25, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Snake Sage Mode ==
 
 
If the snake Sage Mode ends up being more distinct somehow(even though they seemly use the same energy source...), are we going to split it off into another article, or simply leave it here? [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 16:27, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
I think it should be just one article "Sage Modes"
 
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:39, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Don't really think it needs to be split. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 01:00, March 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
==Teachers==
 
Is there any particular reason that the [[White Snake Sage]] and the [[Great Toad Sage]] aren't added to this list? Teaching senjutsu seems good enough to be listed as a user. — [[User talk:Simant|S<small>im</small>A<small>nt</small>]] 04:54, March 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
:When was it said that the Great Toad Sage taught Senjutsu? And Kabuto could have been taught Senjutsu the same way Kakashi taught Naruto in his Wind Release training: simply instructing him even though he couldn't perform the task himself. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 12:22, March 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
:: I'd say that being able to use senjutsu seems to be a essential part of teaching it, since Fukasaku taught Naruto instead of gamabunta teaching him.--[[User:TricksterKing|TricksterKing]] ([[User talk:TricksterKing|talk]]) 13:07, March 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
:::From the senjutsu article: "A person who is able to use senjutsu is called a sage (仙人, sennin)" — [[User talk:Simant|S<small>im</small>A<small>nt</small>]] 19:28, March 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
::::I wouldn't have a problem with them being added as more than likely they're able to use it. But there is also the fact that they could know it in theory and not practical. It also says a Sage is a wise, holy etc person.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 19:33, March 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Kabuto Sage Mode ==
 
 
Could it be possible that Kabuto's sage mode characteristics are different because of his weird snake mutations? Perhaps a normal person with Snake Sage mode would have less characteristics, like just a dark sclera with darkened skin under the eyes (similiar to how Naruto's sage mode looks like).
 
 
But I suppose this is speculation, hmm... Just thought it would be worth mentioning :d [[User:Derigar|Derigar]] ([[User talk:Derigar|talk]]) 22:26, March 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Perfect Snake Sage Mode? Seriously? ==
 
 
if you read chapter 579 again on page 17, kabuto clearly says 'even he couldnt become a true sage in the end just like me!' implying that its not perfect and to make sure readers understood kishimoto made sasuke even say 'he's the same as orochimaru. an '''IMPERFECT''' snake.' prob so fans understand that this is not the perfect version like naruto has with frog sage mode... Also when naruto was training to become a sage i remember fukasaku saying something like to actually achieve perfect sage mode there should be no traces of transformation other than the pigments of the eyes getting darker (chapter 418, page 8), clearly kabuto has the features of a snake/dragon on his body just like jiraiya had frog/toad features when he went into sage mode, so clearly kabutos sage mode is IMPERFECT, please sort the information on the sage mode page out as its not accurate.{{unsigned|2.220.230.81}}
 
:Yes. He is saying that in the end Orochimaru couldn't become a perfect Sage like he had done. That was the whole point of saying "me no snake, me dragon" Also, I'm not sure why you think what rings true for a toad sage is the same for a snake sage. When and if more information is available and corrections are required they shall be made.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 23:45, March 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
then please explain what its meant by when sasuke said 'he's the same as orochimaru. an '''IMPERFECT''' snake.', sasuke saying that and kabuto not correcting him just shows that he has not completed his sage training fully
 
{{unsigned|2.220.230.81}}
 
 
Please sign your post with 4 "~".
 
 
Also, Cerez already mentioned why. [[User:Derigar|Derigar]] ([[User talk:Derigar|talk]]) 21:22, March 23, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
::Shouldn't Orochimaru be added as a user? Seems like their situation mirrors Jiraiya and Naruto's. [[User:SaiST|SaiST]] ([[User talk:SaiST|talk]]) 02:31, March 25, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:::Uh yeah why did Orochimaru get taken off the list? Like the above poster said, their situation pretty much exactly mirrors Naruto's and Jiraiya's. [[Special:Contributions/68.35.56.104|68.35.56.104]] ([[User talk:68.35.56.104|talk]]) 04:18, March 25, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Kabuto said Orochimaru's host body at the time couldn't absorb natural energy didn't he? So he couldn't become a sage. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 05:27, March 25, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
::Apologies, it's worded a bit differently across the available translations. While it seems that he was able to reach Ryuuchidou as Kabuto did, it's not clear at this point whether or not he was capable of drawing in natural energy. [[User:SaiST|SaiST]] ([[User talk:SaiST|talk]]) 13:44, March 25, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
::: Yeah, I suppose we'll have to wait for more info from Kabuto hopefully. None of the translations I read mentioned natural energy at all, most were worded like Orochimaru gained the abilities of sage mode but couldnt completely utilize them because of his body, which I took to mean imperfect sage mode like Jiraiya. But we only have a couple of panels of info for now so hopefully more comes in the next few chapters. [[Special:Contributions/68.35.56.104|68.35.56.104]] ([[User talk:68.35.56.104|talk]]) 03:50, March 26, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Not confirmed ==
 
 
Under the section "Usage" is written:
 
"The Shikkotsu Forest is the third place to have knowledge on senjutsu." Even if is very likely, until now this is only an assumption (Kabuto only says that this place is is equally as famous as Mount Myōboku and Shikkotsu Forest); so I think that this line should be deleted. --[[User:JK88|JK88]] ([[User talk:JK88|talk]]) 20:58, March 26, 2012 (UTC)
 
:Done.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 22:04, March 26, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Snakey Appendages ==
 
On [http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/580/2 this page] it looks like there is a snake growing out of Kabuto's stomach.Should this be considered part of his hermit mode? [[Special:Contributions/174.252.185.254|174.252.185.254]] ([[User talk:174.252.185.254|talk]]) 23:50, March 29, 2012 (UTC)
 
:He already had a snake appendage without being is Sage Mode. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 02:04, March 30, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Image ==
 
 
Is there any particular reason why we have Jiraiya's imperfect Sage Mode as the image other than it looks cool? :p I don't recall us ever having the imperfect/unfinished version of a technique as an article's main image. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 04:11, March 30, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Sage Mode is Sage Mode, and it is the first time we see it. There is also the fact that it shows how it would be normally used (Fukasaku and Shima on his shoulder).--'''''[[User talk:Deva 27|Deva]] [[Special:Contributions/Deva 27|27]]''''' 04:15, March 30, 2012 (UTC)
 
:Hm, I'm not so sure. We don't always use image of the techniques when they were first used and we definitely don't use ones of the incomplete version of the technique (not for Rasengan, Susanoo, or any other that comes to mind.) The Amphibian technique isn't how it would normally be used. That was just a way for them to overcome the shortcomings of the technique. For example, just because Oodama Rasengan somewhat overcomes the base Rasengans difficulty in hitting the foe with such a small object at close range doesn't make it how it's normally used. I'm not trying to make a stink about this, I just thought it was odd. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 04:29, March 30, 2012 (UTC)
 
::Jiraiya's form wasn't incomplete, just imperfect. The same could be said of Naruto's. Fukasaku and Shima were supposed to merge with him but they can't so ''technically'' they'd both be bad representations.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 09:37, March 30, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
yes. But sage mode doesn't mean fusing ... - It just means taking natural energy in perfect amount and all that - so a perfect sage mode picture would be better
 
[[User:Salil dabholkar|Salil dabholkar]] ([[User talk:Salil dabholkar|talk]]) 09:54, March 30, 2012 (UTC)
 
:Actually no, it means the ability to use natural energy, it was never said Sage Mode was doing it <u>perfectly</u> since what Jiraiya did was never not considered Sage Mode.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 10:31, March 30, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Sage Mode Cleanup ==
 
 
Okay, I've a feeling I'll be told something along the lines of "We'll wait for confirmation/a databook", but I feel this needs to be addressed: "Snake" Sage Mode. Thus far, nothing Kabuto has done upon entering Sage Mode has differentiated it in the slightest from "Toad" Sage Mode. Even the horns and such are much more likely to be a mutation given all the experimentation that Orochimaru did and it's not like we don't know anyone others who experience mutations from taking in Natural energy (Jugo's clan). Not to mention, as far as has been told, Kabuto absorbs the same Natural energy Naruto and co do, and there was never said to be different kinds. Thus, leading to the most probable conclusion that it's him that's different, not the technique. Basically, I just don't see the need for us to differntiate. They learned from different locations, but other than him not gaining the toad eye design, it's seemingly the same .
 
Was it ever even called Snake Sage Mode or implied to be any different at all? [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 06:28, April 13, 2012 (UTC)
 
:If I understand this, do you mean calling this "Snake Sage Mode"? As for the horns, I don't think it's from the experimentation. It's not mentioned to be called "Snake Sage Mode". —[[User:IndxcvNovelist|Indxcv]][[w:c:Naruto:User:IndxcvNovelist/Links|Novelist]] ([[User talk:IndxcvNovelist|Talk to Me]]) 06:37, April 13, 2012 (UTC)
 
::No. In a nutshell, I'm saying there's no need for us to have a section title "Snake Sage Mode" because it has shown no difference from what the "Toad Sage Mode" grants. I said that the horns are likely a mutation from Kabuto's body (which was altered by the DNA of Oro's body which was experimented on a lot) reacting to the Natural energy, given what we know about the Jugo clan mutating because of it and Kabuto experiimenting on Jugo. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 06:45, April 13, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Bump.[[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 12:22, April 13, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:As I believe you yourself realise, a judgement like this can't really be made until Kabuto's Sage Mode has been explored fully. While there is currently nothing really contradictory to those displayed by Naruto or Jiraiya, there are notable differences that we can only ''speculate'' the reasons for, as well as numerous points that haven't been touched upon at all (with "disadvantages" being completely absent at this point). [[User:Blackstar1|Blackstar1]] ([[User talk:Blackstar1|talk]]) 13:11, April 13, 2012 (UTC)
 
::Okay ~_-, I agree ^^ —[[User:IndxcvNovelist|Indxcv]][[w:c:Naruto:User:IndxcvNovelist/Links|Novelist]] ([[User talk:IndxcvNovelist|Talk to Me]]) 13:25, April 13, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Snake Sage -> Serpent Sage ==
 
I know it's rather late to say this, but, given all Kabuto's boasts about ascending from snake into a dragon, and the name of the cave he studied at, shouldn't it be a '''serpent sage''' rather than a snake sage?
 
([[User:Shadoguardian|Shadoguardian]] ([[User talk:Shadoguardian|talk]]) 01:24, May 25, 2012 (UTC))
 
:It's just a generic name that was used in order to differentiate the modes.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 01:55, May 25, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
wasn't it called dragon sage? that's what i read, unless the translations were wrong. --[[Special:Contributions/67.82.97.72|67.82.97.72]] ([[User talk:67.82.97.72|talk]]) 17:47, June 15, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
No. In Japanese mythology, dragons and snakes are the same thing, but dragons are much stronger. Kabuto calling himself a dragon was just a way he used to declare how strong he had become. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 18:01, June 15, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== as of latest chapter ... ==
 
 
# so was Kabuto using "Sage Mode" or "Sage Transformation" ??? since he has learned it and his techniques are Sage Techniques then it must be the first, but doesn't this confirm that he was using "imperfect snake sage mode" due to physical transformation?
 
# what are the differences between sage mode and sage transformation and how to handle that ... is Orochimaru a Sage after all?
 
# doesn't this confirm that "power of the white snake" is nothing else than Snake Sage Mode?
 
I added some convo http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Orochimaru%27s_Juinjutsu#Related_to_Sage_Mode
 
how are we going to handle this? Since Sasuke was using Orochimaru's powers of white snake, didn't he have Sage Mode as well?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:33, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
* Stop comparing toad Sage Mode to snake Sage Mode, they might not be the same. The transformation may have been due to the fact that he had Jūgo's DNA in him.
 
* Sage Mode gathers natural energy. Sage Transformation is everything Jūgo does with his body.
 
* Haven't a clue what you're talking about. Orochimaru's power of the white snake only has to do with his many methods of reviving himself.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:57, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
::Also remember, Kabuto did learn senjutsu from the Snakes. I don't know about Orochimaru, but Kabuto was indeed a sage.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:00, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
:::Orochimaru i don't know anymore. He apparently used senjutsu, but I'm not sure if he was a sage or not.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:00, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
but remember kabuto said that since oro's current host was unable to handle it he couldnt master senjutsu.[[Special:Contributions/71.71.58.224|71.71.58.224]] ([[User talk:71.71.58.224|talk]]) 14:09, July 10, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan
 
 
I believe Oro's an imperfect Sage but a Sage nonetheless because he uses senjutsu (outside of Jugo and his clan decor). I'm good with adding him as such or staving if you guys wanna wait for a bit more info.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:20, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Isn't it more like Kabuto is an imperfect Sage, while Orochimaru is perfect?
 
The statement about Oro not being able to handle it refer to the host bodies being weak for that, nor him having any problems with it.
 
Orochimaru absorbed natural energies and his own chakra from Kabuto and didn't change, while Kabuto turned back to normal, this alone is enough proof my dear Cerez that the workings of Snake and Toad modes are the same--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:24, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
:Have you taken into consideration that Kabuto has Jūgo's DNA within him and the now-named [[Sage Transformation]] which might be responsible for the transformation? The way Kabuto put it made it sound like he was the perfect Sage, not Orochimaru.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:33, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Jugo's DNA causes random transformations, not snake transformation. He just said Orochimaru was unable to use Sage Mode WITH weak host bodies, while Kabuto's own body was capable of using and controlling Natural Energies and all that DNA and that he considers himself stronger than Orochimaru and a "Dragon"
 
Also about the "power of white snake" part, doesn't make it sense that it's the same thing as Snake Sage Mode? Kabuto thought that Orochimaru was still in Sasuke and said that he (Sasuke) also possess this power, indicating it's not a result of body modifications, at least not alone--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:42, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
:What you mean by random? Forming axes, pistons, jet boosters and needles aren't random, his transformations are very controlled. The only thin that is uncontrolled is the fits of rage that come on. I don't want to speculate but it's very possible that Kabuto grew those horns himself (the only acutal "transformation" that happened to him) well and the navel-snake which I noticed was being hidden in the frames for some reason.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:52, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Yes, I worded it wrong ... "custom" is what I meant. I don't see why the workings of Toad and Snake modes should be different, that's speculative ... natural energy is natural energy and sage mode is sage mode. We can go only with facts, and those are that Orochimaru absorbed natural energy and his own chakra without any physical change (like a true sage) while it was the reason for Kabuto's transformation, and he turned normal afterwards. Jiraiya turned half toad due to not being able to perfectly balance all 3 energies, Kabuto appears to be exactly the same case ... Orochimaru is apparently also a Sage and it looks closer to Naruto's case--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:59, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
:Except didn't Kabuto call his Sage Mode perfect, and thus for Snake Sage Mode perfection is looking like dragon? Also, remember Orochimaru looked like a flipping mess his entire life, well before he could have become a Sage.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 15:06, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Sasuke: "You are just like Orochimaru, an imperfect Snake"
 
Kabuto: "I have surprassed Orochimaru, I'm a dragon now"
 
Something like that was stated, don't know what to make of it ... also remember that Itachi suggested that Kabuto must have a Sage Mode by his appearance.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:09, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
:But surpassing someone can't mean that he's worse off than them? Also, lmao @ "Orochimaru looked like a flipping mess his entire life" Ratchet ( '-') --[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 15:29, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Any more opinions? @Omni, what do you think, Kabuto = imperfect mode, Oro = perfect mode ... or the opposite?
 
Also any more opinions on the white snake powers being snake sage mode abilities?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:55, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
I believe the extra snake traits Kabuto has are a result of the DNA mess he shoved down his veins. His manipulation of the pure natural energy when he used Sage Art: Inorganic Transmigration to give life to the cave stands to reason that he has full control and balance over natural energy and as such makes him a perfect Sage. Orochimaru on the other hand may not be a perfect Sage due to the frailty of his host bodies since in order to master senjutsu one must have a strong chakra and body. Now in regard to the toad/snake differences...they shoudn't exist. Sage Mode is Sage Mode no matter which medium taught you...at best there should be a trivia note or one in the abilities section saying something: "the Sage Mode user gains different animal traits depending on which sage taught him". Jiraiya could change his body to gain more toad traits, Kabuto also did the same. There shouldn't be any separation of the Sage Modes, they are all the same. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 17:41, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
But the snake modification can't be due to DNA mess, Oro just sucked his own chakra and natural energies from Kabuto and he reverted back, the DNAs juice is still in his body.
 
Jiraiya also could use great Sage techniques yet his manipulation wasn't without physical changes, Orochimaru himself sure is a perfect Sage since he was just looking for a host body strong enough to hold his power, the thing that he sucked out Kabuto's Sage Mode without any problems proves this. I agree on the rest, differences between Sage Modes are speculative, they all should give the same benefits ... only the "sage arts" are different as each species has their unique techniques most likely--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:25, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
:I don't agree that Orochimaru is a perfect Sage...as Kabuto stated, he tried to master the Sage arts but was unable due to his frail host bodies, may have the knowledge but not the physical requirements which is like an inverse of Jiraiya who has the requirements but never perfected his skills...and remember Oro's own body and DNA are a result of countless experiments and it's effects done to other individuals aren't fully known due to the fact that we only have Kabuto as an example but Kabuto already had snake modifications before using Sage Mode. As in regards to Kabuto he likely took all the modifications from him because they were all connected to his DNA since it was all mixed together and most of them already had a DNA connection to orochimaru. One curious thing the series has been showing through out it's run is the bigger connection between chakra and DNA/remains. And Kabuto can't have the DNA juice because he reverted back to human form and he already had snake changes before going sage. Oro at least took all of Kabuto's modifications. In regards to the article it should be re-written as a ''single '' Sage Mode. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 19:00, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Well, but he HIMSELF (his own body) can handle it, only host bodies couldn't ... now he was revived in his original body. So ur saying that Oro took all the powers Kabuto has obtained from DNA juices? O_O It would be weird if Kabuto had to make an experiment and insert DNA into his body and Orochimaru just placing his hand on him stealing it ... but without speculating, I guess we will see if Kabuto still has his new powers or not later.
 
But the thing that he was snake-like even before going Sage Mode and now is normal has a point ... Orochimaru just might have suppressed the alternations from DNA.
 
For the Sage Mode, I agree ... Snake and Toad modes give the same benefits--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:14, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Here's a hint...Orochimaru's original body hasn't existed for at least two to three decades which was when he started his experiments...he can't handle the natural energies for himself...he's been living in these altered host bodies for decades...if got Sasuke's or maybe Kimimaro's body if it wasn't diseased or Kabuto's since he was able to handle natural energy would be a different situation. And yes i am saying that Orochimaru took all of Kabuto's additional powers...Kabuto's reggression to a normal human form stands to reason with it and most of the individuals Kabuto spliced his DNA with already had Oro's DNA nixed ub which makes for a perfect anchor, plus...we do not have a full grasp of Orochimaru's abilities or the full extent of his experiments, so i'd say him having the ability to absorb any modifications which ALREADY stemmed from his DNA is a minimal question don't you think? [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 19:30, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
That's not true, Orochimaru's original body is the same one as his "snake form" he has his original body all the time, he didn't throw it away ... white snake is his original altered body but he can also revert into human form if he wants even without a host, he can shed and create a new body anytime as well.
 
For the Kabuto part, okay. The point is that he must have learned Sage Mode before he took over his first host body, he wouldn't be a sage if he didn't.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:36, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
: I don't think so...acording to Kabuto's flashbacks he would have tried to learn Sage Mode sometime after he was taken under Orochimaru's, which by then he would have started his process of jumping bodies...his original body was likely destroyed due to time and the tool of his experiments...and like Kabuto said he wasn't able to master it...maybe now with what he took from Kabuto, he'll be able to do it...think about it...why wouldn't hasn't he ever used such a powerful ability such as Sage Mode on any of his battles? Like the one with the Four-tail Naruto, or the final battle against Itachi, or the even better the one against the Hiruzen? Doesn't make sense in my book. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 20:30, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
:: Not to mention Kabuto explicitly said Orochimaru tried learning Sage Mode, but couldn't achieve it. So he isn't a user.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 21:01, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
:::Orochimaru was explicitly said in this chapter to take back his senjutsu chakra from Kabuto, and to have put that senjutsu chakra in the cursed seals he applied. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 21:08, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
:: Its likely a mistranslation. Kabuto confirmed that Orochimaru tried learning Sage Mode, but he failed, remember? His body or chakra just wasn't strong enough for it.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 21:20, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
:::It wasn't a mistranslation, Kabuto meant that Orochimaru's host bodies couldn't properly utilize his senjutsu, a lot of people just misunderstood that. [[User:Jetdeagon|Jetdeagon]] ([[User talk:Jetdeagon|talk]]) 21:23, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
::::Seelentau has already seen the raw. And even if you don't know Japanese, you can clearly see in the raw "senjutsu chakra" in the panel that shows that Anko no longer has the cursed seal. Kabuto said that Orochimaru couldn't become a true sage because his host body couldn't handle it. At the time, most of us, myself included, understood that as Orochimaru being incapable of forming senjutsu chakra. Turns out he could, he probably couldn't make a perfect sage mode with the balance of the energies, just like Jiraiya couldn't. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 21:26, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
:::::Which means he has, at the very least, an imperfect sage mode like Jiraiya right? [[User:Jetdeagon|Jetdeagon]] ([[User talk:Jetdeagon|talk]]) 21:29, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
:::: Except he hasn't even shown Imperfect Sage Mode like Jiraiya has. And why wouldn't Itachi or any other character mention that Orochimaru has Sage Mode himself? Why would Kabuto explicitly said Orochimaru tried to learn Sage Mode but couldn't achieve it? For a comparison, Kinkaku and Ginkaku could use Kurama's chakra, but they aren't actual Jinchuriki like Naruto is.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 21:32, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
::::: Kabuto never said Orochimaru couldn't use senjutsu, he said that Orochimaru's host body couldn't utilize it. That's a big difference. [[User:Jetdeagon|Jetdeagon]] ([[User talk:Jetdeagon|talk]]) 21:36, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
:::: He said both. Both the bodies he tried to take over and his own were unable to use Sage Mode. He probably could get as far as the equivalent of using Toad Oil so he could sense Natural Energy on his own but he couldn't get to use Sage Mode itself.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 21:42, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
:::::So he could only 'sense' natural energy when in this very chapter he's explicitly stated to use it and absorb it? And according to this wiki, "Those who are able to learn to use senjutsu are able to enter a physical state called "Sage Mode"" Being able to use senjutsu chakra is literally the only prerequisite to using sage mode. [[User:Jetdeagon|Jetdeagon]] ([[User talk:Jetdeagon|talk]]) 21:46, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
::::::: Jugo could also sense chakra. Kabuot said it himself, Orochimaru tried and failed, and had no bodies strong enough to learn it. He could only get as far as creating senjutsu chakra, but not Sage Mode himself. Kabuto explicitly said Orochimaru couldn't achieve Sage Mode. So stop adding that he did.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 22:17, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
:::::::: Omnibender is the one that keeps having to add it back, so you need to get over it already and leave it alone. [[Special:Contributions/68.35.56.104|68.35.56.104]] ([[User talk:68.35.56.104|talk]]) 22:26, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
::::::Anko is the oldest cursed seal Orochimaru applied, she's the one who defined the 10% survival rate. Anko isn't known to have left Konoha, so Orochimaru did this while he was still in the village, before taking someone else's body with Living Corpse Reincarnation. If her seal had senjutsu chakra, that means he wasn't limited by whatever host body he had at the time. He would have Jūgo already, but not a new host body. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 21:53, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Omni is right, Oro can use Sage Mode for sure and likely could do so even before switching body. And no, his original body isn't destroyed, he still has his original body with himself, it's the white snake.
 
People should stick with proper translations ...
 
EDIT: the thing why he didn't use Sage Mode is because the bodies he took over couldn't handle it--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:44, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
:Exactly. Not to mention that he said he infuses his curse seals with sage chakra and anko was one of the first 10 he put a curse seal on, which he did before leaving the village (which means before he ever switched bodies). We're all in agreement aside from NaruHinafan(SuperSaiyaMan) up there, and their opinion quite obviously isn't going to change regardless of our evidence (that oro had it before switching bodies and that kabuto never said oro couldn't use it, he said that oro's host bodies couldn't use it). So can we finally put this to rest and update the related pages accordingly and leave them that way? [[User:Jetdeagon|Jetdeagon]] ([[User talk:Jetdeagon|talk]]) 23:46, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Some people just can't put their bias aside and stick with proper translations and are using the false ones as "proof" for the way they want to have it.
 
I think Kishimoto has bigger word on this than any of us and the chapter clearly states he has a Sage Mode.
 
The ongoing discussions though are if Kabuto/Orochimaru have a perfect/imperfect version and to merge and update the power-ups part as it's false only snake sage mode enhances reflexes and gives better perception because toad one does the same and there's nothing to indicate any difference ... then kinda on a side-note there's the mini-topic about if Orochimaru's power of the white snake is actually Snake Sage Mode--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:55, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
:I fixed the related pages again to show that he had SM. It's fine if the specifics of imperfect/perfect are still in discussion, the main point is that we are in agreement that he DOES have sage mode and the pages will reflect that fact. EDIT: for the sake of that discussion, I would consider Orochimaru's SM perfect since he has no physical body changes (like Kabuto's horns and Jiraiya's nose/hands/feet). Aside from the snake eyes and eye makeup, which is EXACTLY what happens to naruto (toad eyes and eye makeup) when he's in perfect SM.[[User:Jetdeagon|Jetdeagon]] ([[User talk:Jetdeagon|talk]]) 23:58, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
The thing is that Oro had the eyes and "make-up" (lol) since childhood ... so even if he was using Perfect Snake Sage Mode , we wouldn't likely notice. I think it's obvious it's Perfect version as he was "born" from Senjutsu chakra and absorbed Natural Energy along with his own chakra from Kabuto without any effort and no transformation ... also remember that now he is walking around in his own body without a host, so he might actually use it if he didn't already--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 00:17, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
:That's why I think his is Perfect too. Think about it, we now know that he applies sage mode chakra to curse seals, and we saw him apply one to sasuke, which means he'd have to have been in sage mode to do so, and he looked no different than he always does. His eyes and eye markings (which would be the only noticeable effect of perfect SM) always being present was Kishi's clever way of hiding it so long. Plus, like you said, one would assume he'd have to be in SM to straight up absorb sage chakra out of Kabuto, and again, he looked like he always does. [[User:Jetdeagon|Jetdeagon]] ([[User talk:Jetdeagon|talk]]) 00:21, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:Before we continue any further, because everything I read just seems to be feeding off each other. Where was it said that Orochimaru could even enter Sage Mode? Gathering natural chakra is one thing, but actually entering Sage Mode is another.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 00:27, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
::Because being able to manipulate, use, and absorb senjutsu chakra (which isn't natural energy, it's the combination of natural energy and one's own chakra [what you learn to do in SM training]) IS sage mode. It's the only thing you have to be able to do to enter sage mode. If one can use senjutsu, then that's sage mode. [[User:Jetdeagon|Jetdeagon]] ([[User talk:Jetdeagon|talk]]) 00:30, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
: Kinkaku and Ginkaku can manipulate and use Biju Chakra, does this make them Jinchuriki? Not to mention that Orochimaru was specifically said to be UNABLE to use Sage Mode, having FAILED at it! Kabuto explicitly said it!--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 00:36, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
::Again, Kabuto never, ever said "Orochimaru can't/couldn't use sage mode". He said that Orochimaru's host bodies couldn't utilize it. That in no way says that Orochimaru can't use it. Second, even if kabuto HAD said that Orochimaru couldn't, one character's words don't trump what we actually witness, which is Orochimaru using senjutsu. Senjutsu can only be used by sage mode users. This has already been accepted, even by mods, so just leave it alone already.[[User:Jetdeagon|Jetdeagon]] ([[User talk:Jetdeagon|talk]]) 00:40, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
@Ultimate, Senjutsu Chakra = Sage Mode user
 
@SuperNaruHinaManFanDamPan, you were already told that it's not what was said.
 
Kinkaku and Ginkaku were pseudo-Jinchuriky, Orochimaru was never said to be UNABLE to use Sage Mode, only that he couldn't find host bodies strong enough to handle it
 
 
Also I'd like Omni's and Cerez's opinion on this one since I respect their opinion the most for being quite frequent editors ... Jetdeagon, so are you suggesting that he could use Sage Mode/Senjutsu chakra even with host bodies? That would be KINDA contradicting with Kabuto's comments on host bodies. But I'm not sure on this one as well, since part of me says "yes" and the other part "no" I think that "power of the white snake" refer to Sage Mode/Snake Arts and that his Body Shedding and Gathering of the Snakes and other such related techniques along with regeneration are a result of it.
 
That would explain why the host bodies are weakening and rejecting Orochimaru, due to not being able to handle Natural Energy properly. If Sasuke was being taken over, he would last for not a limited time by this issue as the true purpose of Curse Mark appears to potentially prepare host bodies as those able to possess and use Curse Mark have a higher chance to handle Sage Mode thus Orochimaru, and for revival as well.
 
The only way how to solve this issue I think is if someone could provide a RAW of both the chapter when it's being talked about it in Sasuke and Itachi vs Kabuto and of latest chapter as well, and to have translators here on wiki to solve the issue--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 00:42, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
:I wholeheartedly agree, and I was not suggesting that Orochimaru could use senjutsu with host bodies, I don't know what gave that impression, maybe I worded something wrong. The fact that he can't grasp is that one cannot use senjutsu chakra without being able to use sage mode. senjutsu chakra comes from sage mode. and Omni already said he agrees with the fact that Orochimaru had sage mode, and he himself edited both this page and Orochimaru's page earlier to reflect that. And Cerez said earlier in this very conversation that he also believes Orochimaru is a sage.[[User:Jetdeagon|Jetdeagon]] ([[User talk:Jetdeagon|talk]]) 00:45, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
: Which mod has accepted it? Orochimaru just used senjutsu, he has never been shown in Sage Mode or in a state of Sage Mode. We know when Sage Mode is being used. Naruto achieved a Sage Modeesque state when he finished his Toad Oil training, does that make him a Sage Mode user at that time? Even though he was creating the Senjutsu chakra then? And Kabuto said that Orochimaru never achieved Sage Mode despite training in it. [[http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/579/16|"Orochimaru-sama tried to immediately gain that ability, but, he hadn't found the right body that could bear that ability so..."]] Orochimaru just using Senjutsu means he achieved what Naruto did at that point of training with the toad oil. He's still not a Sage Mode user and never will be until he actually USES it.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 00:47, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
::What you cannot seem to grasp is the fact that if one can use sage mode chakra, one can use sage mode. they are hand in hand, it's been long established.[[User:Jetdeagon|Jetdeagon]] ([[User talk:Jetdeagon|talk]]) 00:49, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
: Naruto achieved Senjutsu Chakra use when he completed Toad Oil Training. Did that make him a Sage Mode user then? Yes or no, Jetdeagon?--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 00:50, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
(edit conflict x4) @NaruHina fan, I think so, it did. @TheUltimate3 In the raw for this weeks's chapter, the panel that shows that Anko no longer has her cursed seal, you can clearly see in Orochimaru's speech bubble that he mentions senjutsu chakra. Both scanlations I've read translated that as saying he put his senjutsu chakra in the cursed seals. Seelentau himself confirmed he says senjutsu chakra in the chapter's talk page. When Kabuto used Sage Mode, he said that he surpassed Orochimaru because Orochimaru's host body couldn't handle senjutsu, Orochimaru was limited by the host body. In his original body, before he ever switched it, we see that he was capable of using Sage Mode by the fact that a cursed seal from the first ever batch had senjutsu chakra in it. You can only make senjutsu chakra if you're a Sage, meaning he would have been able to enter Sage Mode. Jiraiya couldn't balance the three energies perfectly, but he's still considered a sage, and his techniques were still considered senjutsu. While we don't know if Orochimaru could balance them perfectly, he very clearly and unambiguously says he put his senjutsu chakra in the cursed seals. Using senjutsu means one has to be in the Sage Mode. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 00:52, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
:: Naruto only became a Sage Mode user after he actually achieved it. The Toad Oil Training wasn't enough even though he could use Senjutsu chakra then. And when did we EVER see Orochimaru in Sage Mode? Again, until he actually uses it, he shouldn't be listed as a user.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 00:57, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
:::You really, really need to understand that you HAVE to be SAGE MODE to use senjutsu.[[User:Jetdeagon|Jetdeagon]] ([[User talk:Jetdeagon|talk]]) 01:00, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
:: Except you don't if you're still in training. Naruto achieved the ability to use Senjutsu when he was doing his Toad Oil Training, yet he wasn't any close to being an actual Sage Mode user then. Not to mention again, he's never been shown using it and isn't it a standard practice on the site to wait until that happens before listing jutsu users?--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 01:01, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Girl, your either can't read properly or your English is bad ... it says: "he hadn't found the right body that could bear that ability" not: "he couldn't have used that ability for he had a weak body"
 
Also your Naruto comparison is flawed, Naruto was using Sage Mode since he has learned how to absorb, combine and use Natural Energy along with his own chakra to create Senjutsu without the use of any oil ... I don't see Orochimaru using any oil.
 
The oil made Naruto absorb natural energies, but he only mastered Sage Mode when he himself has mixed it with the 2 energies that make up his chakra--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 01:05, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
:And we've never seen anyone use senjutsu outside of sage mode, either (because you can't).[[User:Jetdeagon|Jetdeagon]] ([[User talk:Jetdeagon|talk]]) 01:07, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
:: I'm a guy, Elveonora. And it still valid, it also implies he couldn't use Sage Mode itself because he kept searching for stronger bodies to bear the ability. And you don't get what I'm saying, Naruto while using Toad Oil could absorb Nature Energy and had to balance it so he wouldn't turn to stone. Thus he gained Senjutsu there. What I said is for all we know, Orochimaru achieved a SIMILAR state, and never achieved Sage Mode himself. Thus, until Orochimaru ''actually uses it'' he shouldn't be listed as a user.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 01:18, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
:Natural energy and being able to use senjutsu chakra (which is natural energy combined with the other two energies within one's own body, which is what is used in sage mode) are two different things, I think you think they're the same which is why you're not getting this. Being able to use senjutsu means you're a sage, that's all there is to it.[[User:Jetdeagon|Jetdeagon]] ([[User talk:Jetdeagon|talk]]) 01:21, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
::I would like to remind this discussion that perfect balance isn't required. Jiraiya never achieved perfect balance of the three energies, but he was still a sage. From the moment you can balance natural energy with the other two enough so that it's stable, you've made senjutsu chakra, meaning you're in Sage Mode. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 01:32, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
@I'm a guy, (yes, I'm gonna be as ignorant as you are) no it implies that his host bodies couldn't use it and he was searching for one that could (hint: Sasuke) the thing Naruto didn't balance it out, he was turning into a Toad and the grandpa toad had to smash him with a magical stick to revert him back into a ramen ingredient.
 
Naruto gained Sage Mode the moment he didn't need any help to maintain the state, the last part of your posts makes absolutely no sense--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 01:48, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
:...you called me 'girl'. And should you prove that Orochimaru doesn't need help to maintain the state? Again, he could have gotten as far as the training and no further. Hell, from the sound of it (when he got Anko the Cursed Seal, just after getting Jugo) he had his original body back when he first went to the Cave. And kabuto said he kept trying to get stronger and stronger bodies since either his own or the others couldn't bear Sage Mode. Why can't we actually wait until he uses it before listing him as a user?--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 02:01, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
then...Oro IS a sage because he can use SENJUTSU chakra...but would that mean that Sage mode is a parent technique of the different Curse seal?[[User:Saeyatachi|Saeyatachi]] ([[User talk:Saeyatachi|talk]]) 02:01, July 11, 2012 (UTC)Saeyatachi
 
:::The earth and heaven seal pages should be updated with a tidbit about the fact that they are filled with orochimaru's sage chakra, and sage mode as a parent jutsu, but I'd wait for the go-ahead from omni before adding the latter. And, @Naruhinafan, it's become really, really, reaaally obvious that you're never going to change your opinion, but the fact is that the manga has established irrefutably that if one uses senjutsu chakra in any way/shape/form, they have to be in sage mode. If one uses senjutsu or sage chakra, they are a sage. Omnibender put it perfectly a few posts up, if that isn't going to convince you to accept it, nothing will, but it's been decided already.[[User:Jetdeagon|Jetdeagon]] ([[User talk:Jetdeagon|talk]]) 02:12, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
: How? Orochimaru's original body couldn't bear Sage Mode, thus not making him a user. Which is why he continually tried to get stronger and stronger bodies. That's what Kabuto said. And for all we know, he could have just used Senjutsu due to the Cursed Seal, not because of Sage Mode. Again, until he actually ''uses'' it, he shouldn't be listed.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 02:08, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
@girl/boy, "FACEPALM" you are either ignorant or have some kind of retardation/disability either psychical or physical.
 
If he got only as far as training but no further, he couldn't have used it, but he did.
 
He has already used Senjutsu chakra (Curse Marks) and has shown ability to absorb Senjutsu Chakra thus there's no doubt, get over it.
 
Honestly, it's similar case to how Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are being listed in Madara's infobox, cause the canon states he can do it. If you are waiting for "Sage Technique: Taking over bodies" or "Sage Art: make-up no jutsu" from him, then you are welcome.
 
@Sae, I think we should list Sage Mode as a parent technique to Curse Marks but to Sage Transformation as well, or related/delivered ?
 
IT WAS NEVER STATED THAT HIS ORIGINAL BODY COULDN'T USE IT, LATEST CHAPTER EVEN INDICATES OPPOSITE--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 02:14, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
: You don't quite understand, Elvenora (oh, btw, don't insult since I disagree with you). Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are perquisite techniques of Susano'o, that's why Madara has the,. And no, Curse Seals use Jugo's chakra for them so they can passively absorb natural energy. Answer me this: why even go the Jugo route if Orochimaru himself has Sage Mode?--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 02:38, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
::In this very chapter we learn that curse seals use orochimaru's sage mode chakra. The only way Jugo fits into this discussion is that finding the source of jugo's nature transformation abilities is what led orochimaru to the ryuchi cave where snake sage mode is learned.[[User:Jetdeagon|Jetdeagon]] ([[User talk:Jetdeagon|talk]]) 02:42, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
::: And we also know that Sage Chakra can be formed via what Jugo does. Again, why even bother getting Jugo for his Cursed Seal Template if he could go into Sage Mode on his own? And why don't you guys want to wait for it to actually be used by Orochimaru? --[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 02:47, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Curse Marks don't possess Jugo's chakra, but his enzyme. And I don't understand the last part ... also Jugo doesn't use Senjutsu/Sage chakra, just Natural Energies.
 
He found about Sage Mode after experimenting on Jugo, the Curse Marks are used to select potential host bodies candidates--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 02:50, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
: Then how does his techniques work if its just Natural Energy? And he went to the Ryuuchi Cave after experimenting on Jugo...and he couldn't get Sage Mode there. Hence why he kept trying to get stronger and stronger bodies. Thus, he isn't a Sage Mode user.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 03:12, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
The Curse Mark works by combining Natural Energy and Orochimaru's chakra with an enzyme from Jugo ... it just creates transformation and gives Sage Mode-like abilities due to Senjutsu Chakra of Orochimaru, but the users of the seals aren't Sages as they have no control themselves over Natural Energy and arts of Senjutsu, neither Jugo Clan's transformations are to be considered Sage Modes, because there's no control over Natural Energy, just transformations.
 
For the last time, it was never stated he couldn't get Sage Mode there.
 
You are both blind and ignorant ... anyways, I'm done with you and I won't reply anymore to you.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 03:30, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
: You are both rude and insulting. When could have have gotten Sage Mode if not there? Why did he need to keep getting stronger and stronger bodies if he already HAD Sage Mode?--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 04:07, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Because in order to attain all knowledge, ultimate power and unlimited lifespan, he has to change bodies to achieve his goals as he himself is also mortal.
 
Since he would die one day as an old man, all his efforts would had become meaningless.
 
Thus he need a strong and young body for that, and a one that can hold his greatness, Sage Mode included ... you should know this--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 04:42, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
CONCLUSION:
 
1.Orochimaru can use senjutsu chakra(regardless if its perfect or not) thus making hin a sage.
 
2.orochimaru branded others with curse seals to test if they're body can survive using natural energy
 
3.Orochimaru apply the curse seal while in sage mode, using enzymes from jugo's body(so they/it will absorb the natural energy for the nonsage users)
 
Am I right?[[User:Saeyatachi|Saeyatachi]] ([[User talk:Saeyatachi|talk]]) 05:12, July 11, 2012 (UTC)Saeyatachi
 
: No conclusion at all. Elveonora, Orochimaru needed stronger bodies to not only become immortal but attain Sage Mode. He learned to use Senjutsu chakra, but not to attain Sage Mode itself, that's what the chapter makes clear. And Orochimaru apply the seal while in Sage Mode? Prove it, he wasn't in Sage Mode when he applied it to Sasuke. Orochimaru isn't a Sage, he just can use Senjutsu chakra. Like how Kinkaku and Ginkaku aren't Jinchuriki, but can use Biju Chakra.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 05:30, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
why is that when NaruHina talks the discussion tends to repeat? your the only one arguing here?[[User:Saeyatachi|Saeyatachi]] ([[User talk:Saeyatachi|talk]]) 06:10, July 11, 2012 (UTC)Saeyatachi
 
:Since it makes sense that Orochimaru never achieved Sage Mode, given he never, not ''once'' used Sage Mode in the manga and ''none'' of his jutsus even have the Senjutsu moniker. Why wasn't Orochimaru revealed to be a user in the Third Databook when it was released? What sense does having two Sannin having the same power when Pain said 'all the Sannin are unique'? --[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 06:58, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
::Actually. It's still possible SuperSaiyaMan, during Asuma's life for example we never saw him use [[Wind Release: Dust Cloud Technique]] but he did so as an Edo Tensei and I'm sure, just like everyone else Orochimaru has techniques that we haven't seen him use. There's also the matter of Kabuto saying his host bodies couldn't manage it and what not. But the fact that he absorbed his own chakra as well as the Senjutsu chakra from Kabuto, says a lot. In any case to me, it doesn't make any sense going on about this with the limited information that we have.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 11:05, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
:: It doesn't make sense though. Orochimaru should have gotten some techniques listed as Senjutsu in the Third Databook, and would have been listed as a user there. However, he wasn't. Its premature adding him to Sage and Sage Mode until he actually ''uses'' it. --[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 20:31, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
:::And Deidara's techniques should have been listed as kekkei genkai, but weren't. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 22:06, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Databooks don't reveal everything, like first one can say that Bob's favorite food is a chicken, and the second his height/weight, third about his background etc.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:12, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 
: Databooks are what is revealed from the author. Orochimaru was still alive/relevant when Sage Mode was introduced. Thus if he had it, he'd have been listed by it. Not to mention he was given a 3.5 in stamina/chakra by Kishimoto...when both Sage Mode users had a 5. Thus, again, until he actually ''uses'' it he isn't a Sage or uses Sage Mode. It isn't the same as Deidara's Blast Release.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 20:11, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
::To me, Sage's are persons who can manipulate natural energy (outside of Jūgo's clan). Though I wish Shounensuki was here to ply us with direct translations, Jūgo noted that Orochimaru undid Kabuto's Sage Mode. He would have to have some knowledge in the area to do something like that no? --[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 20:25, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
Knowledge is one thing, actually possessing it is another. Kabuto even went so far to say that Orochimaru failed to achieve it due to his weak body. And he canonically doesn't have the chakra for it as well since Sage Mode requires a ''vast'' reserve like Naruto, Jiraiya, and Kabuto. Orochimaru learned enough to form perhaps the minimal amount of Sage Chakra, but couldn't enter the mode and was forced to rely on Jugo.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 20:32, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Kabuto has 3 (less than Oro) in stamina and is a Sage Mode user, your argument is invalid--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 20:29, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
: You mean ''before'' all that training, genetic manipulation, and everything that Kabuto did? Orochimaru's stamina didn't improve (especially since he was dead for a significant amount of time) but Kabuto's did, Elveonora.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 20:32, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
That's called theory-crafting, only information that's in the disposal is mentioned ... "what ifs" do not belong here, stop already. The conversation has reached it's end for you keep repeating yourself and speculating ... one way or the other, it's too long.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 20:47, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Wow Elvenorae you're an ass. At NO point is it ok to call someone retarded. 2 majority rule is BS. NaruHina is right and even if all of you disagree with him, he will still be right, you guys don't decide the truth no one does not even me. you guys make the rules and completely ignore them. WHEN did oro show sage mode. That's YOUR rule not mine. follow your own damn rules and stop bullying NaruHina.
 
 
Not signing your posts, that's as much validity as you have. And no, he/she isn't right and instead of conversation that was supposed to help the article, it changed into theory-crafting, nitpicking, assumptions, delusions and ignorance--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:18, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
and @Cerez365 I deeply respect you. THANK YOU for not being a jerk like elveonora. in your latest comment you said, "To me, sage mode is..." my only issue is the 'To me' part. Aren't you guys fact checkers, you collect data and put it on here. your job isn't to interpret it is it? This is supposed to be like the justice system innocent until proven guilty, burden of proof=beyond a reasonable doubt, your rules state that it must be Shown or clearly stated, neither of which is the case, I believe oro could be a sage but we CAN'T prove it. in court the bad guy gets off sometimes. but that's the price of fairness. and right now we don't have enough info to make such a claim.
 
:Except we do. And it's not majority rule, either. It's the logical conclusion based on the facts concerning sage mode. Omnibender's post from yesterday should have ended this discussion: From the moment you can balance natural energy with the other two enough so that it's stable, you've made senjutsu chakra, meaning you're in Sage Mode. And sign your posts. [[User:Jetdeagon|Jetdeagon]] ([[User talk:Jetdeagon|talk]]) 21:21, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Jerks says: all evidence is the above, and no one is interested in beliefs and neither this is an elementary school where people bully NaruHina. The majority has agreed on it thus there's no new evidence for a change.
 
The more ignorant you will be, the more the jerk will let you eat it--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:25, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
: At Jetdeagon and Elevonora, until Orochimaru actually uses it, he shouldn't be listed as a Sage Mode user. Fukasaku himself said Sage Mode requires a high amount of chakra, like Jiraiya and Naruto. Two of the people who have a 5 in the stat in the databook. While Orochimaru has a 3.5, which isn't enough. Not to mention that again, Orochimaru would have been listed as a Sage Mode user in the Third Databook, but he wasn't. Only Jiraiya. --[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 21:27, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
the walls must be either extra hollow or your room soundproof.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:30, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
: Elveonora, appealing to the majority as well as being extremely rude isn't helping your case. You keep ignoring these actual facts we know about Sage Mode so you can just have Orochimaru have it. Let me guess, it'll make Itachi stronger since he beat a Senjutsu using Orochimaru right?--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 21:33, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Lord this is really long ._. when I said "to me" I meant from what I read on the Sage Mode article and in the manga. In any case we should wait on more evidence before carrying on this discussion because it doesn't seem to be going anywhere but towards an argument.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 21:35, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
You seriously are retarded, I don't care what people think of me.
 
Your logic is like that of a 12 years old, god even mixing Itachi and "vs" factor into it ... common troll stuff--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:38, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
@Jetdeagon ok then I'm resolved :) Thank you.
 
 
:: Elveonora, stop calling me or other people 'retarded'. You aren't helping your case. And 'common troll stuff', its something people are motivated for lately. Again, what's wrong with waiting until he actually USES it, Jetdeagon, Elveonora? --[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 21:41, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
:::Because your argument is flawed. You admit he can use senjutsu chakra but not sage mode, when in reality the moment you create senjutsu chakra you ARE in sage mode. That is exactly the same as saying someone who uses Lava Release shouldn't be listed as a Fire Release user until they use a Fire Release technique.[[User:Jetdeagon|Jetdeagon]] ([[User talk:Jetdeagon|talk]]) 21:44, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
:: But having Senjutsu chakra isn't enough. Its implied that it was via his cursed seal. Again, why would he even need Jugo's enzyme if he himself had achieved Sage Mode? And Kabuto even said he tried, and failed when he went to the Cave...''after'' researching Jugo. And to actually have Sage Mode, you have to have a monstrous amount of chakra. --[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 21:50, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
How do you want me to take you seriously and not to insult you while you ignore everything that's being stated in manga and replacing it with your flawed version of ... logic? I don't think that's even a logic.
 
His Cursed Seals posses his Senjutsu chakra and he has absorbed his power from Kabuto, thus can use Sage Mode.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:48, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
: His cursed Seals use Senjutsu Chakra because of Jugo. And insulting people isn't a way to get your argument across and you know it. We know that Sage Mode requires a high amount of chkara. Orochimaru doesn't have a high amount of chakra. Its simple as that. Until he actually uses it, he can't be called a user.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 21:50, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Jugo doesn't use Senjutsu chakra ... a usage of natural energy =/= always a sage mode, a control over/manipulation of natural energy and forming of senjutsu chakra = sage mode.
 
Also Kabuto has proven your argument invalid, and Oro did control senjutsu chakra so stop repeating yourself already--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:54, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
:: Jugo uses Sage Transformation to passively absorb Natural energy. It'd be easy for someone like Orochimaru to balance that with chakra to make it Sage Chakra. And no, Kabuto, who had improved since then, doesn't disprove it. You need a massive amount of chakra for Sage Mode, which Fukasaku says.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 21:58, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Sage Chakra = Senjutsu = Sage Mode O_O are you even listening?
 
And your Kabuto case is only "maybe, what if, he must have" etc. no solid facts only assumptions--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:03, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
: http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/412/11 Straight from Fukasaku's mouth: "You have to have enormous amounts of chakra, otherwise you won't be able to draw out Nature's Energy. That's how great it is." Orochimaru doesn't have enormous amounts of chakra. And how is fighting for two days straight not proof that Kabuto has gotten a stamina increase? Orochimaru worked around his inability to draw Nature Energy using the Cursed Seals and Jugo's enzyme.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 22:06, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Anyone want to kindly explain why this one section is taking up half the talkpage ? >_< --[[User:Speysider|Speysider]] <sup><small>[[User_talk:Speysider|Talk Page]] | [[User:Speysider/Images|My Image Uploads]] | [[User:Speysider/Tabber Code|Tabber Code]] | [[w:c:supersajuuk|My Wiki]] | [http://youtube.com/user/SuperSajuuk Channel]</small></sup> 22:05, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
:SuperSaiyaMan simply refuses to accept facts.[[User:Jetdeagon|Jetdeagon]] ([[User talk:Jetdeagon|talk]]) 22:06, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
I would said aliens, bit it's NaruHinaSuperSaiyMan Mega ignorant troll syndrome--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:07, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
: Oh, I'm a troll because I'm following the rules set for Sage Mode that the manga set down? Bringing up multiple sources where Orochimaru could have easily been made as a user but wasn't? 'Mega Ignorant Troll', more like someone who wants to preserve the validity of the article. Manga flat out says that only people like Naruto and Jiraiya can use Sage Mode due to their high chakra levels. Orochimaru was given an above average chakra level by Kishimoto himself, making him inable of actually using it. What's wrong with a little patience and waiting for more information like ''we are supposed to?''--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 22:17, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
I think for everyone's benefit that this discussion stops as we have insults being thrown around in every message. I'm heartily sick of being spammed notification emails about this talkpage now =.= --[[User:Speysider|Speysider]] <sup><small>[[User_talk:Speysider|Talk Page]] | [[User:Speysider/Images|My Image Uploads]] | [[User:Speysider/Tabber Code|Tabber Code]] | [[w:c:supersajuuk|My Wiki]] | [http://youtube.com/user/SuperSajuuk Channel]</small></sup> 22:19, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
@dude, there's nothing to wait for. He has already used it, that's why he is listed. He is yet to use a named Senjutsu technique though, for sure.
 
Anyways, isn't it time for an archive already?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:23, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
: Except he kind of didn't. He used Senjutsu chakra...through something made specifically to help with that. Cerez said we should wait until there's more information.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 22:26, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
You are ignoring passages of text and are speculating, but whatever ... I'm done now.
 
Also it isn't necessary to spam other user's talkpages about the issue as they should be posting their opinion on this here. Closing this down, making a continuation--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:46, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== as of latest chapter - continuation ==
 
 
Opinions, no wars ... edit: mostly from users that are yet to say a word on the issue--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:50, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
: Fukasaku said that Sage Mode requires enormous amounts of chakra, which is why Naruto and Jiraiya could learn it. Orochimaru doesn't have massive amounts of chakra, having only a 3.5 in the databook. Jugo's Sage Transformation gives him a work around so he can use Sage Chakra without having massive amounts of chakra, hence why he was able to use Sage Chakra to observe while within Anko's seal.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 23:30, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
::"Sigh"...i don't remember seeing a talk page topic being this long since the whole Jiraiya being stronger than Itachi thing months ago...and here i thought people were losing interest in the wiki...xD. Now seriously speaking...re-analyzing previous chapters and combining that with the recent information, i believe that Orochimaru has learned how to use sage mode/senjutsu...but i am against saying he fully mastered or controled it...his lack of usage in '''major battles''', plus the statements done by both Kabuto and Fukasaku all together inply that Orochimaru at least didn't master Sage Mode for a viable use in battle, hence why he likely experimented on Jugo and created the Cursed Seals...likely his mastery of it was lesser than Jiraiya's and the fact that his host bodies couldn't withstand it add to that fact. But the fact that with the nature of the Cursed Seals, plus the fact that he not ''only'' released Kabuto's Sage Mode and absorbed the senjutsu chakra does state knowledge of how to use it...thus a very imperfect Sage Mode. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 23:47, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
: About releasing Kabuto's Sage Mode, its more like it cancelled out on its own when Orochimaru took his chakra and power away, leaving Kabuto unable to sustain it. --[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 23:56, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
::Which is pretty much the same...you need proper knowledge to do either, again going to the fact that Orochimaru has the ability of going Sage Mode. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 00:21, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
 
: Its basically like cancelling genjutsu. Jiraiya sucks at it, but he can cancel it. As for the article, it'd be better for us to wait for Orochimaru to tell Sasuke 'Wait for me, I'll enter Sage Mode' like during a battle. Because as of now, he doesn't have it as far as information goes, not even Jiraiya's version.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 00:43, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Orochimaru's stats in the databooks also reflect his host body. That's why he has such a variation of height and weight between the databooks. His aptitude to jutsu isn't affected because that's a mental capacity, stuff that relies on the strength of the host body would be affected. I find that a logical explanation for why he would be able to use Sage Mode while having 3.5 as stamina, because that's the stamina of the host body, not the he would have learned senjutsu with. I don't know if anyone has brought it up, but Orochimaru putting his senjutsu chakra in the seals when applying them would mean he was capable of using it, at least to a limited extent, in order to brand Sasuke early in the series. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 01:36, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
 
: I thought the stats don't take into account that stuff, especially the physical ones. Orochimaru would have a 3.5 regardless, no matter if his body was up to it. The manga even goes in he failed to achieve Sage Mode. What did Shonensuki say of that scene?--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 03:53, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
 
actually it makes sense...exept for the retarded guy...[[User:Saeyatachi|Saeyatachi]] ([[User talk:Saeyatachi|talk]]) 01:54, July 13, 2012 (UTC)Saeyatachi
 
:...yes, insult. Because you have nothing better. Why can't we just wait? And Omni, why don't you discipline Saeyatachi and Elveonora for their blatant insults?--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 03:53, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
 
Again as i said...if you join the little bits, inplications and the latest information, Orochimaru is Sage and Sage Mode user, but as Omni stated his lack of stamina and/or other flaws makes his SM unviable in battle, which would expalin the reason he created the Cursed Seals in the first place. He may not be capable of using it in battle, but his senjutsu can and was put to other uses. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 02:41, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
okay...i take back what i've said..sorry...but let's end this discussion.let's just wait for the next chapters...i bet that would explain things..okay?[[User:Saeyatachi|Saeyatachi]] ([[User talk:Saeyatachi|talk]]) 05:24, July 13, 2012 (UTC)Saeyatachi
 
:Yeah, lets wait. We want to be absolutely sure before we add Orochimaru as a Sage Mode user. We don't want to make a mistake.--[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 07:10, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
When a section becomes as big as this as fast as it did, my fine-combing becomes less fine. Between this and the message I see you left in my talk page, which I have yet to read, I'll go into detail. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 19:32, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
I have nothing against Sage Mode being removed from his infobox, but at least it should be mentioned in abilities section that he has some control over senjutsu, to let people make their own opinion of that till the manga shows him using it if that's BIG of an issue ...--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 20:56, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
As I recall' Kabuto specifically mentioned his host bodies weren't capable of handling Natural Energy, hence Orochimaru didn't ever enter an actual Sage Mode. Absorbing Natural energy =/= entering Sage Mode. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 02:25, July 14, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Host bodies =/= Orochimaru himself--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:55, July 14, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
It seems somewhat fair to say Orochimaru can use Sage Mode in his abilities and remove it ('Sage Mode') from his info box.
 
However I think it is very silly. This is because Orochimaru uses Senjutsu chakra; Fukasaku clearly told us that only Sages can use Senjutsu chakra. Citing Fukasaku is important because he said this when we were being introduced to the mechanisms of the Sage Mode.
 
 
"Sage" denotes someone who can use Sage/Senjutsu chakra - Fukasaku made this very clear just before Naruto jumped into the toad oil.
 
Basic reading comprehension will tell you this: Naruto was learning how to use Sage chakra; Naruto is about to give up; Fukasaku says only those who don't give up can become Sages. Going by this, to be a Sage you need to control Senjutsu chakra.
 
 
Now bung in that Orochimaru also went to Ryuchi cave... Unlike Kabuto he was unable to become a Perfect Sage. Notice how he (Kabuto) never said anything remotely like "Orochimaru was unable to become a Sage like me", he said "true/perfect". That was a big deal when it came out, Sage Orochimaru was never considered as we never saw him. Till we were told he uses Senjutsu chakra.
 
 
To be honest, with all the information we have: I think the info boxes really should link Orochimaru and Sage Mode.
 
One thing to note is we arguably have a feat point towards Sage Orochimaru. Chapter 290, how did Orochimaru know that team 7 were hiding in the bushes? We don't have him listed as a chakra sensor- but Sage Mode sheds light onto it.
 
 
If you really wanna, you can think of it like this:
 
Orochimaru is an imperfect Sage because he looks snake like; Kabuto is a perfect Sage because he looks like a dragon.
 
 
In short: I think Sage Mode and Orochimaru should be linked, because we have a wealth of info pointing towards it. --[[User:Jingo12|Jingo12]] ([[User talk:Jingo12|talk]]) 22:47, July 16, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
I agree, except Oro not being a perfect Sage. When he absorbs his own chakra/senjutsu chakra from Kabuto, his hands gets scales like Kabuto's but turns normal afterwards, indicating he has a complete mastery over it unlike Kabuto, as the latter had physical transformation. I think people take the "dragon" like too literal, Kabuto could refer to overall abilities--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:12, July 16, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Not quite. Juugo in many translations - Mangateers; Mangastream; Mangapanda; Yagami1211 (Narutoforums); and Geg (Narutoforums) - explicitly says that Orochimaru released the Sage Mode prior to absorbing his own chakra from Kabuto. Kabuto did take a lot of Orochimaru chakra from Anko.
 
Anko also had that sort of scaly look when she had some of Kabuto's flesh.
 
 
Kabuto was very clear when he said Orochimaru couldn't find the body to bear the ability (Sage Mode) and couldn't become a *perfect* Sage. Orochimaru can use Senjutsu chakra and Kabuto made a deal about going from a human, to a snake, to a dragon. And we can clearly say Orochimaru stagnated at the 'snake' stage.
 
 
Whereas Kabuto's jutsu indicate 'dragon'. It makes more sense when you think of the Chinese dragon whom sort of has a snake-like body, but with the legs; best shown via Kabuto's White Snake form and Manda 2.
 
 
Kabuto said a perfect Sage Mode was how he was able to completely surpass Orochimaru. If anything that does *not* suggest that Orochimaru "has a complete mastery over [Sage Mode]".
 
Especially when you consider Orochimaru undid the Sennin transformation prior taking his own chakra back.
 
 
The only issue is: we don't know if Orochimaru has yet to show us his Sage Mode, or if he's constantly been in Sage Mode.
 
However I am sure of one thing: he doubtlessly has it; the information we have access to does suggest so.
 
 
---
 
 
On side note regarding the issue overall:
 
 
"Another way is to study under snakes from the Ryūchi Cave where Orochimaru and Kabuto Yakushi learnt it." - from the Sage Mode article. It makes no sense to *not* have Orochimaru on the info box with this line here.
 
 
"At some point, Orochimaru began researching the source of Jūgo's powers and uncovered the Ryūchi Cave, where he and later Kabuto Yakushi learned Sage Mode"
 
- From Orochimaru's article. It makes no sense *not* to have Sage Mode on Orochimaru's info box with this line.
 
 
Considering these why should we say Orochimaru has Sage Mode, yet disregard those bits in the respective articles by not acknowledging them on the relevant info boxes?
 
 
--[[User:Jingo12|Jingo12]] ([[User talk:Jingo12|talk]]) 14:29, July 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Ask NaruHina, his voice is gospel--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:11, July 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
It is in fact true that that statement makes no sense if we're staving off the addition of Orochimaru to the technique. That will be fixed along with all the other things that "don't make sense not to have..." I must say I'm proud of SuperSaiyaMan, generally he has some way-off interpretations of chapters, but this time he stood his ground and argued his point well (from what I read, all of this is prime tl;dr stuff) and seeing that this is what the community has decided, adjustments just have to be made. All will be revealed/confirmed eventually.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 16:24, July 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Having said that, out of my walls of text, while discussing the adjustments I feel that Orochimaru using Senjutsu chakra should be considered. Having read the arguments, I took it upon myself to go and re-read quite a number of chapters. No-where did I find - facts, interpretations, hints etc - that it was at all possible to use Senjutsu chakra without having the Sage Mode.
 
 
---
 
 
About NaruHina fan's - aka SuperSaiyaMan - stance there is a number of things I found wrong with his premise.
 
First and foremost, where he mentioned boldly that "Kabuto explicitly said Orochimaru tried learning Sage Mode, but couldn't achieve it"; with my re-reading I didn't come across anything like that.
 
I only saw Kabuto saying unlike himself, Orochimaru was unable to become a perfect Sage. In a similar vein you can say unlike Naruto, Jiraiya was unable to become a perfect Sage.
 
That aside, Orochimaru making use of Senjutsu chakra is a large red light to over look. Even imperfect Sages are capable of using Senjutsu chakra, the best example being Jiraiya.
 
 
Further NaruHina fan also relies on the "Orochimaru hasn't shown Sage Mode" stance. That is a fair stance, though we also have to consider that we've never seen Orochimaru go in an all out battle in the same way some other characters - like Jiraiya - have.
 
 
There are other things like in the first talk (prior the continuation) where he made the assertion that Orochimaru's original body couldn't handle the Sage Mode. I saw nothing implicating the original body, I saw things implicating the host bodies, however. Hence the "he couldn't find a body"; that can be taken as Orochimaru couldn't go Sage Mode, period. Though, as I said him using Senjutsu chakra is a large red light to overlook.
 
 
Another thing I noticed was TheUltimate3's line: "Gathering natural chakra is one thing, but actually entering Sage Mode is another." From what I gathered, the former is completely dependent on the latter; you cannot form Sage chakra without Sage Mode.
 
 
In all, I agree he did well standing his ground. However if I thought he argued the point well, I wouldn't be contesting it.
 
In all I really think the actual fact it boils down is we haven't seen Orochimaru use the Sage Mode.
 
 
Regardless of opinions, I think the articles need a definitive stance. We can't say that Orochimaru is a user in the articles, but not acknowledge it on the infoboxes. Needs to be he is, or isn't- but you acknowledged that, Cerez365.
 
 
I dunno about you, but personally I didn't see anything about the community as a whole agreeing on this (mind you, I've only seen the Sage Mode talk page). It still seems to be debatable.
 
 
Perhaps a good fix could be listing Orochimaru as a Sage Mode user in the info boxes but putting "(presumably)" next to it. As it was done with Sasuke and Tsukuyomi for some time, long ago.--[[User:Jingo12|Jingo12]] ([[User talk:Jingo12|talk]]) 17:28, July 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
I believe as they stand, the article state what we know: Orochimaru has used Senjutsu and not Sage Mode. Because the two are so closely linked and he isn't Jūgo nor any of his clan members it is inevitable that the information is going to get crossed in the process which is in part due to the fact that it isn't any one person editing the article at all times. I personally believe that Orochimaru is able to use Sage Mode, hell I at times hope/think Tsunade can do the same, but it isn't all the time that we're going to be able to represent everything any one person wants, which is why we wait for more concrete evidence before moving forward.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 19:00, July 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Speaking of concrete evidence, I must ask: what evidence suggests one can use Senjutsu chakra without Sage Mode? Notably evidence which shows you don't need to be a Sage to use Sage chakra.
 
I'm finding it a hard to readily accept the community notion without fully understanding the rationale behind it.--[[User:Jingo12|Jingo12]] ([[User talk:Jingo12|talk]]) 01:03, July 18, 2012 (UTC)
 
:And I find it hard to readily accept that one single persons' relentless opposition to everyone else constitutes "community notion". [[User:Jetdeagon|Jetdeagon]] ([[User talk:Jetdeagon|talk]]) 04:19, July 18, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Exactly, since when is one person the "major opposition" that's butt-licking. I thought the majority decides upon something, so how is the word of one person final now?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:34, July 18, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Sorry to bring this up again, but I really think this should be addressed.
 
Firstly because there are members who don't believe this was a community decision.
 
 
Lastly because of the fact that this article would probably confuse readers of this wiki: Orochimaru is classed as a 'Sage' in his article, the Sage Mode and Ryuuchi Cave articles that Orochimaru learnt Sage Mode. Yet the Sage Mode info box doesn't acknowledge this.
 
Think of it from a reader's perspective: you read Orochimaru has Sage Mode in different articles, yet Orochimaru isn't listed as a user on the infobox of Sage Mode? It would be rather puzzling.
 
 
That's the reason I reckon these adjustments that Cerez spoke of should be made soon.
 
 
Now I about my stance, I'll say the: about the "Orochimaru hasn't shown Sage Mode" stance, we haven't seen Fukasaku and Shima use it, yet we've put them there on the infobox. Using the same line of logic, you can easily put Orochimaru's names.
 
 
Second, surely it should be enough to know that Orochimaru has actually learned Sage Mode (according to the articles on this wiki) to list him under 'users' on the infobox.
 
 
Lastly (linking to the point above), for the sake of consistency it would be better to add Orochimaru as a user. It would flow well with the other articles.--[[User:Jingo12|Jingo12]] ([[User talk:Jingo12|talk]]) 19:02, July 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
People assume that when someone has not been seen using a technique, he/she can't do it ... like people thought that Itachi used his whole "arsenal" against Sasuke during their fight, only to pull out extra techniques from his arse when reincarnated. Sage Mode requires to stay calm in order to gather natural energy (with the exception of Kabuto) or to have summons to do it for the user ... we haven't seen Orochimaru fighting much, only "playing" with Sarutobi only to pull Edo Tensei as his card, then against Naruto/Kurama and I bet there wasn't any time to sit and concentrate during that ... neither in his "deathbed" during Sasuke fight.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 20:02, July 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Not to mention the fact that even if we haven't seen it from him, that doesn't nullify the fact that from the moment you can balance natural energy with the other two enough so that it's stable, you've made senjutsu chakra, meaning you're in Sage Mode. (quoted from Omni). We ***know*** he can create and use senjutsu chakra which means he can use sage mode. Not listing him would be akin to not listing Mei Terumi as a Fire Release user since we haven't seen her using a fire release technique. We ***know*** she can use fire release, but she hasn't used one so why list her? it's the same thing.[[User:Jetdeagon|Jetdeagon]] ([[User talk:Jetdeagon|talk]]) 20:21, July 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
I agree. I also would like to add that we should carefully consider the Fukasaku and Shima thing: we know they use Senjutsu- but we've not seen them officially use Sage Mode. Yet we list them as users of Sage Mode.
 
 
In a similar vein, we know Orochimaru uses Senjutsu and has used (putting the Curse Seal on people) Senjutsu. Thus we can easily put his name on the infobox just as we have with Fukasaku and Shima.--[[User:Jingo12|Jingo12]] ([[User talk:Jingo12|talk]]) 22:14, July 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Snake Sage Mode and Markings ==
 
 
Something just crossed my mind. Are we sure that the markings around Kabuto's eyes weren't there before he entered Sage Mode? Mayhaps that's how they are on Orochimaru as well? I was wondering because the way it's mentioned makes it sound as though the markings extended because of the mode.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 10:43, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
We don't know, it's likely that Snake Sage Mode users have the same snake-pupils and markings around eyes, but Orochimaru was like that since child, thus we confusion and lack of information.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:43, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== 5 minutes ==
 
 
Shouldn't it be stated that Sage Mode can only be maintained for five minutes? Fukasaku did say this to Naruto in chapter 420.--[[Special:Contributions/98.109.95.216|98.109.95.216]] ([[User talk:98.109.95.216|talk]]) 01:55, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== vagueness ==
 
 
The article says:
 
* There are numerous advantages while using toad Sage Mode. These include:
 
# The user's physical strength, speed, stamina, reflexes, and durability dramatically increase.
 
# The user's ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu become more powerful.
 
# The user can harness the natural energy surrounding them, turning it into an extension of their body, which increases the reach of their attacks.
 
# The user gains the ability to sense chakra around them.
 
Then:
 
* There are numerous advantages granted while using snake Sage Mode. These include:
 
# The user's perception abilities, reflexes and speed dramatically increase.
 
# The user's ninjutsu becomes more powerful.
 
# The user gains further access to snake anatomy, such as their brille, which can be used to lock out light as well as stop visual-based genjutsu from affecting them.
 
# They are also able to perform abilities that are characteristic of snakes, such as dislocating their jaw, although this is not exclusive to this mode.
 
 
To begin, both should be identical. It's the very same concept only taught from different animals... both use natural energy.
 
Toad Sage Mode provides increased perception too, it's the very same thing as the sensing chakra around them one, thus TSM point 4 and SSM point 1 advantage 1 are the same.
 
Snake Sage Mode also obviously increases physical strength, stamina and durability.
 
I don't see why with SSM genjutsu and taijutsu shouldn't also become stronger.
 
The anatomy part also isn't a power, Kabuto simply got snake eyes just like Naruto gets toad eyes. That would be like listing Jiraiya's toad limbs as a power.
 
 
I vote for a reformulation... "Advantages" part should be a single section, the same with "Forms" with pictures and a short note about the difference of looks.
 
 
Not to mention Frog Kata isn't a part of Sage Mode... it's like other senjutsu techniques from [[Mount Myōboku]], only a senjutsu Technique very likely unique to toads, just like [[Sage Art: Inorganic Reincarnation]] and [[Sage Art: White Rage Technique]] are taught by snakes.
 
EDIT: the jaw part should also be removed as it's not an ability granted by sage mode--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:35, November 26, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
If I'm not mistaken we've been over this when "snake" Sage Mode was introduced. Not because they are both Sage Modes mean that everything taught by the snakes is taught by the toads, but, at the same time the reverse can be true. What is written in the article is what we know, not what we assume should be obvious to everyone. At no point during its use did I see Kabuto shown any form of enhanced strength, stamina, or durability. So how can we just assume it?
 
 
As for the other part, technically every senjutsu is a part of Sage Mode. Based on its definition, you cannot manipulate senjutsu without going into Sage Mode or Sennin Transformation in Jūgo clan's case.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 19:09, November 26, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Exactly, not everything taught by snakes is also by toads, that's why I said the "sage techniques/arts" differ, but there's only one Sage Mode. Take into consideration both logic, and that both use the same workings of absorbing natural energy around, and that there NEVER was a mention of "snake sage mode" nor "toad sage mode" only Sage Mode... the terms are made up by us the community just to distinguish them while there's no difference outside looks at all. Also since when blocking a sword with hands isn't a proof of strength? At what point did Naruto show increased stamina in the mode? He has PLENTY of that even outside of it, so this one is hard to portray. There was no sign of being low on chakra or exhaustion on Kabuto. Cursed Seals give the same enhancements as Sage Mode, durability included... what more "proof" do you need?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 04:37, November 27, 2012 (UTC)
 

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Madara Edit

He basically just stole it from Hashirama, but he also stated that he managed to master it very quickly, so he should be listed as a user, right? Norleon (talk) 12:49, December 4, 2013 (UTC)

I think it is the same with his Wood Release. It doesn't matter if the ability was stolen or acquired through body modifications, if he is using it, then he is an user. Shadow Abyss (talk) 13:27, December 4, 2013 (UTC)
I think the situation is a bit subtler than that. With Wood Release, all Madara needed was a physical piece of Hashirama to be grafted in his body. For Sage Mode, even though he already had the physical implant, he had to go to Hashirama. He drained Hashirama of his senjutsu chakra (which I find very odd, since I don't recall Hashirama being in Sage Mode the last few chapters). He didn't make the senjutsu chakra himself (as far as we know), we don't even know if Madara knows the mechanics of how senjutsu chakra comes to be (though I believe he does). We don't consider people Naruto gave tailed beast chakra to be jinchūriki, so I don't think Madara should be considered a Sage Mode user, even if he's using the senjutsu chakra. The whole situation is murky. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:45, December 4, 2013 (UTC)
Hello sempai. In regards to Madara i would have to disagree a bit...in an earlier chapter, he said he was going to take Hashi' senjutsu powers in chapter 647. Now in this one Madara says how the power of the senjutsu chakra was dissapointing and he believed it would be harder to control it. Not only that, but we say the perfect Sage pattern appear in Madara's chest face. Also we know that if unless senjutsu chakra can be balanced, the user will display animal traits and eventually turn into an animal statue. Being a sage is being one who can balance and control senjutsu chakra within himself. From where i see it, Madara simply took a shortcut to attain the same result. Darksusanoo (talk) 00:51, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
But there's something that has never been clarified: does senjutsu chakra require active balancing once it is made? I mean, do you have to keep balancing the spiritual, physical and natural energies once the senjutsu chakra is made, or once made in the perfect ratio, the chakra is stable? I also find it very odd that it was only the Hashirama face that got the markings, and that Madara himself didn't get them. And I repeat, Madara himself has not made the chakra as far as we know. We don't list every shinobi Naruto gave Kurama's chakra a host, because the source of the chakra is not in them. Madara may have a Hashirama graft, but the graft was not the source of the chakra he is using. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:40, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
But as Madara said, he did had to control the senjutsu chakra, even if that took less effort than what he originally assumed. Also i believe once the initial control is gained the chakra remains stable, but as we all know senjutsu chakra doesn't renew itself so for sages, there is no chakra source, they have to take the energy from outside sources and balance it with their own. If Madara hadn't gain control over the chakra, he'd turn into an animal like the Preta Path when he absorbed Naruto's chakra. And it was defined in the article that control (even if imperfect) over senjutsu chakra is what makes a sage. Also the Kurama comparison doesn't really fit here sempai, since we are talking about two very different types of chakra. Graft or no graft, that face is a part of Madara's body, thus its part of Madara himself and as such anything derived from it is Madara's own at this point.
  • Another little side detail to add to this is Madara's insane sensing prowess after his revival. Given how Uchiha senses are restricted to visual/dojutsu ones and how once that is lost, their battle prowess takes a nosedive. (Izuna's death and Madara's final defeat against Hashi comes to mind.) I ask...how did Madara managed to dance around a Sharingan/sword master's attack, sense the peculiar traits of Sasuke's Sharingan, all while being effectively blind? The only type of sensing prowess this strong is that of a sage...remember Kabuto vs Sasuke and Itachi? Kabuto was also blind to prevent genjutsu and still outfought the brothers due his sensing in Sage Mode. Darksusanoo (talk) 01:57, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

The Preta Path case isn't the best example, since the zoom in Naruto when he opened his eyes sort of implied he himself introduced an imbalance in the senjutsu chakra while it was being absorbed. And it's not the senjutsu chakra per se that transforms one into an animal and then a statue, it's the overwhelming natural energy that does if you can't control its flow. Regarding sensing, Madara has been noted a sensor for a while now, and not due to his eyes. I goes back to at least when he first detected Hashirama's and made that psycho face. He's been listed as a sensor at least since then. Kabuto wasn't exactly blind. His brille made a filter to his eyes, you could still see the snake pupils behind them when they were lowered. Base Madara already had sensing. If anything, I'd say that the sage chakra is boosting an ability he already had. This is similar to Orochimaru's case. We know Oro's cursed seals contain his senjutsu chakra, but those who use his cursed seals are not Sage Mode users. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:13, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

If Naruto had introduced the imbalance, the perfect sage pattern wouldn't have appeared on his face...it would look like Jiraiya's pattern if anything and in no way was it implied that Naruto gave the Preta Path imbalanced chakra...if anything he overloaded him with senjutsu chakra to turn him into a statue, but the statue turned into stone because it couldn't handle the senjutsu chakra. Yes Madara is a sensor, but to the degree of compensating the loss of his dojutsu, a major pillar in the Uchiha's fighting style? Kabuto did blind himself...he said at least once or twice to Itachi that he had cut off his eyesight to prevent eye based genjutsu. Why are you bringing Oro's cursed seals, when we know those were derived from Jugo's KKG...which is a different thing...however Madara did display the pattern signs of perfect sage control and remarked that he had to exert control over the chakra...all traits of a sage. Darksusanoo (talk) 02:23, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
The focus on Naruto only happened when the shading around his eyes was all but over. Introducing an imbalance in the chakra would have snowballed in the Preta Path, leading to the petrification. Regarding Madara's sensing, what I'm saying is that even if he is using sage chakra, he's not using Sage Mode itself. I brought Orochimaru up because despite the cursed seals coming from Jūgo, the explicitly say that the cursed seals contain Orochimaru's senjutsu chakra. It's in the pages that show Orochimaru taking back his chakra from Kabuto. I still don't see pigmentation around Madara's own eyes, which according to Fukasaku are the sign of a true sage. Madara essentially took sage chakra someone else had a put in a graft battery. I'm saying that Madara is a similar situation to Orochimaru in which one has senjutsu chakra, but not Sage Mode itself. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:13, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
People keep saying that Hashi's face is a graft. Has no one ever assumed it was a mutation caused by the introduction of the First's Dna into one's body? Madara himself said that he infused the DNA into his wounds. So that's not a graft, its a mutation side effect, he didn't build and plaster a second Hashi face into his body, neither did Danzo. Its like having an extra limb...just because it's extra, what's done with it is still yours, your doing, possession and responsability. Also wasn't a similar discussion brought up, when someone wanted to separate senjutsu from sage mode? Wasn't it concluded that excluding Jugo/Oro's seals due to them being KKG-bound, that regular individuals were required to enter Sage Mode in order to use senjutsu. So unless you wanna unleash that box of scorpions again. The sage pattern appeared in Madara's face, in this case his second face...and even if he did what you say he did sempai, he's still a sage at this point, since he still had to balance and control the senjutsu chakra he took in without the aid of a KKG...it maybe an atypical case, but the traits exibited by Madara are more aligned with Sage Mode than Sage/Cursed Seal Transformation.Darksusanoo (talk) 03:29, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
Madara is not using Sage Mode. He stole Hashirama's chakra and is using his "Hashirama face", if you will, to use Hashirama's Sage Mode. Therefore he is not a user. All this about him "controlling the chakra" is irrelevant and seems to be nothing more than a desperate attempt to list him as a user. It is A) Not his Senjutsu chakra, B) Not his Sage Mode, and C) Not his own body controlling it, but the "Hashirama face" doing it for him. He should not be listed whatsoever until he is shown using it on his own. Its absolutely no different that Kakashi and the other shinobi using Naruto's Kyūbi chakra after he gave it to them. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 04:08, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
So by that standart, please remove him (and everyone who's not Hashirama) as a Wood Release user, since he can only use it because of the "Hashirama face". Sure just toss aside one of the main pillars of sage mode/senjutsu, which is actually managing to not get turned into an animal statue, that makes perfect sense. "Not his own body controlling it"? Last time i checked...Hashi's face isn't detachable from Madara's body like a Lego piece, nor is it a tool of any kind, but a mutation caused by the integration of the First's DNA...Madara may be using Hashi's face, but that face is a part of Madara's body now, like anyother of his limbs so you saying he's using the face is like saying he's using the left arm instead of the right to swing a blade...its all part of his body...not originally sure, but it is now...that's like saying that a person who has an extra limb isn't responsible/can't control what that extra limb does...Darksusanoo (talk) 04:29, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
The precedent Kabuto created with his chest snake means that if you are in control of some freaky growth that can use some other technique, you are using that technique. So yeah, lets not try and think to stupid on this one. Madara is using Hashirama's Sage Mode, he gets listed as using Sage Mode.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 04:34, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
No disrespect intended when I say this, but that has to be the most asinine reasoning for listing someone as a user I've ever heard. With Wood Release and Kabuto's snake... thing, the genetics of the person using the technique were apart of their new user; Wood Release in Danzo, Obito, Yamato, etc., and the Sound Four's in Kabuto. We saw him injecting the blood. Madara cannot use Sage Mode. He didn't absorb natural energy from the air and mix it with his chakra to make Senjutsu chakra, he stole the Senjutsu chakra Hashirama already had and used it through HASHIRMA's body parts that had been grafted into him. How the hell is that, in the sweet name of the baby Jesus, usage of Sage Mode? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 06:58, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

@Dark, to clarify, the Hash-chest-face is Kabuto's work as confirmed in the latest chapter, it didn't happen to Madara as he had gotten Hash's cells at all, just white skin. For the Sage Mode, yes, he is a user I believe, but if he should be listed as a Sage is questionable. As stated, it's the Hash-chest-face that has gotten the facial markings, not his own. And THIS IS EXACTLY why I brought up a while ago a forum about us listing users having KKG powers or otherwise as either them being temporary (transplant/experiment) or permanent (blood trait). So what does that tell us, true, he is no less user of Sage Mode now than Danzo was of Wood Release. Even tho he can do it only thanks to a foreign matter attached to his body, he had to control it and managed to and as such is a user. But a Sage has to be able to sense, absorb and balance natural energy himself, which he hasn't done. So short story: user of sage mode- yes but not a sage, reverse case of Orochimaru.--Elveonora (talk) 13:17, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

Mhm. The Spoken word. Glad to see you editing again Elveo. Sorry to just jump into this discussion. But i agree.--Senju SymbolKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 14:37, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
Asinine it may be Ten Tailed Fox, but it is what it is. He has a freaky construct of Hashirama's face on his chest, he absorbed Hashirama's senjutsu chakra and is able to manipulate it under his own will. He himself may not be in Sage Mode, but he is using it. Unlike Danzo, Madara is in control of his stolen ability, Danzo was not. WHen he got messed up the Wood Release ran wild.
That being said, he is not a sage because he didn't actively learn the art of senjutsu he just sucked it out of one person.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 16:18, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
I know he's not a Sage, but he doesn't even seem to be in the least bit familiar with Senjutsu chakra. "So this is the coveted Senjutsu chakra." Doesn't say to me he even knows what he's doing. I mean, its like Omnibender said. Naruto gave everyone in the Alliance Kurama's chakra. Shoot, the Rookies even used a Tailed Beast Mode cloak. We're not listing them as psuedo-jinchūriki because they controlled that chakra, did we? No. Its no different here. I just don't like the faulty, paper-thin layer of logic that some seem to be using as an excuse to list him as a Sage Mode user. He's not. But, if that ends up being the consensus, I won't fight it. Just seems like a really big mistake to me. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 16:30, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
Madara said that he thought he would have a hard time manipulating it. Might just be better to wait for Raws though.~UltimateSupreme 17:04, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

TU3, what does Kabuto's navel snake have anything to do with this? The snake was never implicated in his use of Sage Mode, only in the skills he acquired from Orochimaru. He already had the snake while not in Sage Mode. The thing that sets Madara apart in this case, is that this isn't simply a case of grabbing a physical part of a third party and having access to its abilities. Madara already had the Hashigraft, and yet he had to go grab the senjutsu chakra from Hashirama himself. If he's at least aware of how senjutsu works, he'd certainly Gary Stu his way into mastering the whole process in half a heartbeat, like the overachiever he is, making the whole theft of the chakra pointless. Another example of non-use of technique, is Rasengan. Rookie 9 each took a Rasengan and slammed Obito with it, but we don't list them as users. Madara is the same thing. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:51, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

Should it not be noted that Hashirama's SM increases regeneration? As Madara's wound from Sasuke's 'Kusanagi' explicitly healed up within a very short time after adopting the pseudo-SM. Maybe this is what Madara was referring to about Hashirama's Byakugou-esque healing? Pesa123456789 (talk) 19:25, December 8, 2013 (UTC)

Hash cells in themselves heal and shi* as shown with Obito, nothing with senjutsu. But I thought what healed Madara was QB chakra anyway--Elveonora (talk) 22:03, December 8, 2013 (UTC)

By the Light this is still going?
The snake has nothing to do with Sage Mode. I was pointing out that Kabuto pulled out Orochimaru and the Sound Five from the naval snake and we count him as having used their techniques and their kekkei genkai. Ergo, Madara pulling out Sage Mode and putting it into his Hashichestface and as he said he can manipulate it to mean means, unless we just decide to say "eff it" and decided just because all hate Madara that he isn't using Sage Mode, he is using Sage Mode.
And I thought i brought up the Rookie 9 thing. The Rookie Nine actually didn't do a damn thing. They jumped into Naruto's chakra, Naruto formed the Rasengans and all his friends did was push. They ain't manipulate nothing. It was the same thing when Naruto pushed Killer B's tailed beast ball through 30 barriers.
Now that being said, I'm already bored witht his discussion. If we want to say Madara is not using Sage Mode then I'm willing to just call everyone out for bullcrap but let it be removed without a fuss anyway so long as we also take into account Kabuto's actions with his weird body modifications.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 02:37, December 9, 2013 (UTC)

But the difference with Kabuto is that all those techniques, implants or not, originated within him, in his body. Madara already had the Hashirama face in him, and even them he had to go take the senjutsu chakra. That is what I think constitutes the Orochimaru-like situation of using senjutsu chakra, without actually using Sage Mode. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:12, December 10, 2013 (UTC)

Questionable Content Edit

For some time now, the article has been broken up into sections more or less stating that there are different Sage Modes. In the past I've questioned the source of this, and I never felt I was given adequate justification, and certainly not in the vein that is usually demanded on the wiki. There seems to be zero mention in the manga by ANY practitioner of Sage Mode that what Hashirama and Kabuto do is any different, in terms of the basal technique, to what Naruto does. Now, one thing offered up is that Kabuto and Hashirama have different designs around their eyes, and that Fukasaku noted that Naruto had the eye designs of a true sage. Well, that's not accurate actually. All Fuksasaku said (Ch. 418 pg. 5) is that the dark pigmentation around the eyes are the mark of a true Sage, he never made mention or note of it being specifically a mark of a Toad Sage, or anything else, just that of one who has perfected Sage Mode. And given both Hashi and Kabuto fit that description, and made no mention of using some specific brand of SM, I'd put in my suggestion that the article be fixed to remove a lot of unfounded assumptions one must make for it to make sense. Thoughts? Skitts (talk) 07:29, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

At the very least, it could be separated by user, so we could say "Naruto Uzumaki's Sage Mode" or "Kabuto Yakushi's Sage Mode" instead of made-up names like Toad Sage Mode and Snake Sage Mode which imply different types. The current implication that each version has different strengths and weaknesses also seems unnecessary. Stating things like Kabuto's and Hashirama's not having enhanced durability because Sasuke's sword could cut them seems like a big assumption; Pain's rods could pierce Naruto after all.--BeyondRed (talk) 07:39, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
I really don't understand how there can be different sage modes. The sage mode is simply the state of ones body when it absorbed natural energy. There are no different kinds of natural energy one can absorb and we don't have the slightest explanation for why the absorbtion of the same energy results in different looks. So yes, I agree with Beyond, we should differ by user, not by looks. Seelentau 愛 09:34, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Agreed Seelentau. It is just balancing natural energy with one's own inner energies after all. I think one thing we might do is simply mention that all known perfect sages (among humans anyway) had different designs around and on the eyes, but they all possessed the distinctive mark of a perfect Sage that Fukasaku mentioned. It avoids all extra assumptions but mentions how each user differs aethestically. But should we split it by user? I can't really think of anything in particular that Kabuto or Hashirama did with the form itself that was noticeably different from Naruto. They each just seemed to power-up their techniques. Suggestions? Skitts (talk) 13:44, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Hey Skitts long time no see, I was wondering where you have gone to ^_ And yes, thank you for bringing up again one of my favorite unresolved and ignored topics!!! Now, all we have to do is await for naysayers and unnamed sysops to come and paste a giant red NO on our foreheads to prove their might and ignorance. I'm not having anyone specific in particular on my mind of course :D Just generally speaking about those who disagree. And yes, there should be a single section listing all the benefits of Sage Mode, not for "different" modeS since there are none other and a removal of the animal labels as well. There is just this weird phenomenon for those who were taught by snakes turn into snakes, those that by toads into toads etc. so there's where the assumptions of different modes come from--Elveonora (talk) 13:50, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Hey. Real life (school and work), hobbies and forgetfulness kept me away. I still checked in every so often, just never got involved. xD Anyway, I'd question whether individuals who were taught by snakes would turn into snakes. We've never seen Kabuto loose control of natural energy, so the safest assumption is that he would turn into a toad as Naruto nearly did and the Preta Path actually did. Kabuto was already a snake, after all. :) Sage Mode just seemed to enhance his snake-related abilities, which is unsurprising given Fukasaku mentioned one's abilities are increased by it (ex: Naruto's healing rate and stamina). Skitts (talk) 14:45, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
But Preta Path having turned stone toad statue is a problem, isn't it? This for one gives evidence to their assertion of "animal specific" modes. But why would Kabuto have turned into a toad had he failed to master it? That would have implied Sage Mode having origins with the toads. Only good thing is that if that were true, it would actually take away credibility to their assertion of different modes, because it would mean every single Sage Mode is "toad sage mode" So basically both evidence for and against appear to be contradictory to the explanation as why that happens.
If everyone turns into a toad no matter what, it means a single Sage Mode, if it differs from person to person (which we are yet to see) then that doesn't necessarily mean many different modes :) So I think there's more evidence for a single Sage Mode--Elveonora (talk) 14:57, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
There seems to be no need to divide it into sections. All are basically the same. Probably a Known Sage Modes or something similar in the end might work.--~UltimateSupreme 15:04, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
@Elveonora The Preta Path example is the one that best supports the idea of a single Sage Mode. Remember, all Naruto did was pass on natural energy (or maybe senjutsu chakra) to him through his absorption technique, and the Preta Path, who had no known affiliation with any Sage location, still turned into a toad. And this doesn't indicate necessarily that Sage Mode originated with the toads (although it wouldn't really matter), as Fukasaku just said that a toad transformation and pretrification were the natural effects of not controlling the natural energy, not that it had anything to do with who Naruto was affiliated with when learning it. So given Kabuto drew in natural energy for the mode as all Sages do, the best assumption is that improper use would result in a toad transformation.
Well, I guess I'll get to it then. Or should we wait for more yays and nays? Skitts (talk) 15:35, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Maybe we should look at the broader picture of natural energy. The Shinju, natural energy embodied, originally a tree, has taken upon MANY form. Shapeshifting/transformation is a trait of natural energy it would appear. Same for Jugo's Clan and Curse Mark users, they all have different forms. And as such I don't like the notion of every Senjutsu School dropout turning into a toad and would like to ignore the Preta Path instance altogether. Perhaps Kishi didn't give it as much thought as we do. I like to convince myself that the form they take is dependent on their personality traits. This would explain why for example Jugo, who has unstable mind can shapeshift into many things, while Curse Mark users who did not get the madness part all have just a single form.--Elveonora (talk) 15:51, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Well now, that's the kind of speculation we're trying to remove from the article. :) What the Shinju does is kind of irrelevant here, it's the origin of all chakra too after all, and chakra has all sorts of uses. We already know there's a shapeshifting element to natural energy, just look at what happened to Jiraiya. Jugo's clan is something of a special case, in that it's their Kekkai Genkai that allows them to do shapeshifting after absorbing a little natural energy, and Orochimaru's Curse Marks are just an imitation of that. And not to sound mean, but it doesn't really matter what you want to be the case, but Fukasaku did note that a toad transformation and petrification is the drawback to improper Sage Mode, with no qualifications. The Preta Path instance cannot be ignored because it was a demonstration of that, with Fukasaku confirming that when it happened. Oh, and madness IS a part of the Curse Mark. Remember, one of the Sound Four told Sasuke that if he remained in the Curse Mark Leve 2 state for too long, he would begin to loose control mentally (Jugo's clan) and the energy would take over his body (like improper Sage Mode). Skitts (talk) 16:22, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

It was said that they would become like Orochimaru, not like Jugo. And I know we are trying to remove speculation, I was speaking hypothetically what would fit and make sense to me. The article just needs to be streamlined without actually removing anything. @Seel, would you look at it?--Elveonora (talk) 16:53, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

Sometimes I think we're the most backward wikia. I really wish that we could agree upon one thing, stick with it, and wait for clarification. Instead we beat dead horses, and those amongst us that were enlightened by JesusBuddhAllaHindugods but walks amongst us lowly humans finds every opportunity to undermine the wiki they can't walk away from. Not you Turry, how u doin~
Any way, we all are supposed to know by now that Sage Mode is just that - Sage mode. We tried to differentiate them because they aren't all the same. Modes learned through different methods reflect differently on persons. Toads look like toads, snakes look more like snakes. Are we supposed to ignore that? Are we supposed to differentiate Naruto's Mode from Jiraiya's even though they both learned from toads? To me the sections explains each usage as accurately as possible. If the pseudo-titles are that much of a bother, they can be changed but we can't lump them all together and ignore the obvious differences. --Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 17:17, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
That's the thing, Kabuto looked like that even without Sage Mode, it just gave him horns. Curse Mark gave Kimimaro- the bone guy, more bones, yet we don't consider that to be the Curse Mark's specific trait. We don't have any reason to believe that without Kabuto's prior experiments he would have looked any different than Naruto, with just the eyes changing. So the only "anomaly" is Hashirama, he we can say has "specific" mode until we learn more. But the animal labels irk me, also there's no reason to repeat "improved strength, speed etc." for each users, it's same for all.--Elveonora (talk) 17:26, January 13, 2014 (UTC)


This whole thing is problematic entirely because of Kabuto as far as I can tell. He's the only one that has other animal traits in Sage Mode, but one can't forget that he was a snake beforehand. My only problem is that it seems the only real reason we have the article like it is because Kabuto shenanigans. And I'm good Cerez. How goes you browski? Skitts (talk) 17:30, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we already have "toad sage mode" before Kabuto was even revealed to be a Sage Mode user?--Elveonora (talk) 17:32, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Nope. Skitts (talk) 17:34, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Cerez reflects my issue with lumping all of the Sage Mode styles together. Basically when you want to get down to it, yes there everything is Sage Mode. But then you get into the seperate styles: Naruto and Jiraiya learned Sage Mode from the toads. Kabuto and Orochimaru learned Sage Mode from the snakes (tho Kabuto was the only one who could make actual use of it).--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 21:26, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

"He's the only one that has other animal traits in Sage Mode" ~ Skitts

Not true, Jiraiya's hands, feet and face all took on toad like traits because he wasn't a "Perfect" sage. At the same time, in Sage mode, both Jiraiya and Naruto's eyes gain horizontal slits, whereas Kabuto gained vertical slits, which, given what happened with Kurama's power and sage mode, if the horizontal slit is indicative of Sage mode, and his eyes had the slit as a result of experimentation, shouldn't he has + shaped eyes too? Jugo, as the only example of his clan's ability without tampering, has no defined animal trait, but unsurpassed transformation properties compared to the rest. Hashirama's Sage form comes with markings unlike the others, but no particular animal trait or transformation from what we've seen. While all these characters possess a Sage Mode, or in Jugo's case a transformation related to the absorption of natural energy, none of them except the two trained by Toads share traits beyond facial marking, so saying that all Sage modes are the same is a lot more inaccurate than splitting them up. Even if they are mechanically the same, superficial things like the different facial markings and mutation from failure are seemingly independent of one another.--Hawkeye2701 (talk) 21:47, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

Hawkeye, you do realize I was talking about people who complete Sage Mode, right? Hence why I only brought up Naruto, Kabuto and Hashirama in that instance. Further, Kabuto ALREADY had vertical slits before Sage Mode, as well as most of all the animal traits. All he gained were horns as far as we can tell. Saying that all Sage Modes are the same is the most canonical thing to say given statements by Fukasaku that I've already mentioned, namely that the defining mark of a Sage is dark pigmentation around the eyes. He didn't make not of any particular design, but of dark pigment alone, which both Hashirama and Kabuto certainly had. And come on man, NO WHERE have we seen mutation from misuse be anything other than turning into a toad (i.e Preta Path and Naruto). We've never seen Kabuto or Hashi loose control, so you've no leg to stand on for your case.
@TU3 What do you mean by different styles? Different teachers sure, but I can't recall any display of anything specific to a particular user of Sage Mode, aside from individual techniques. Skitts (talk) 22:12, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
It means exactly as it sounds. While there is one Sage Mode, there are three known styles of it: Toad, which Naruto and Jiraiya use, Snake, which Kabuto can do and Orochimaru knows about, and Whatever-the-Eff-Hashirama-Does which Hashirama does. Trying to change it to imply that each Sage Mode is unique to the user implies that the toads at Mount Myōboku can teach someone how to grow brille over their eyes, or a snake from the Ryochi caves can teach someone Frog Kata.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 22:49, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
I could have sworn at one point that the article had an I commented mention that there was no such things as Toad or Snake Sage mode and that they are simply there out of convenience of us chronicling the information. The longer titles like "Sage Mode - taught by toads/snakes" would be bad for linking them in other articles.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 01:59, January 14, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, so I figured I'd get to this since there seems to be basic agreement. So my thought is to essentially remove the noticeable implication that there are distinct-ish Sage Modes, and merge them, give the general effects that Sagee Mode has been confirmed to have. Kabuto didn't display anything fundamentally or substantively different from Naruto, the Toads or Hashirama, so we seem good there. I think the only important thing to note is, as I said earlier, that while all of the designs of completed Sage Mode users differ, yet they all possessed the distinctive marker of a true sage that Fukasaku mentioned (dark pigment around the eyes). We good? We good. Skitts (talk) 01:42, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

The subsections are probably still neccesary to some extent. It could be organised like the Susanoo article - a general overview talking about how it works and what it does (enhanced jutsu, strength, speed, perception, etc.), then subsections for Jiraiya, Naruto, Kabuto, and Hashirama. The subsections could talk about things specific to each user, like Frog Kata, Muki Tensei, Jiraiya forming toad feet, etc. as well as Naruto's method of entering the Sage Mode. This way no unofficial terms are used at all, but all the information is still present and organised.--BeyondRed (talk) 02:34, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
As stated in the edit summary, yeah the last comment (Cerez) implies the discussion was still moving, it just fell off. Good job starting it up again. Maybe this time we can actually get to a conclusion.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 03:12, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
EDIT:And maybe simply just undo my edit and reinstate Skitts. From my first pass of it it doesn't seem wrong, if only a tad formated oddly (It looks weird to me. Probably fine, just looks strange to my old man eyes.)
And for reference, there is Skitt's version of the page Click me.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 03:17, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
Do note that I did all of this because i do like to get a clear end of a discussion. If nobody does say anything, I will consider this the end and make Skitt's version official anyway.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 03:19, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict times 2) @BeyondRed Huh? Muki Tensei is a technique, not a special ability of Kabuto's Sage Mode, Frog Kata is just a fighting-style and Naruto doesn't do anything special in entering Sage Mode. Those subsections are somewhat redundant. The only useful one you mentioned would be the one for Jiraiya, but only because his is the only imperfect transformation we've seen. The others seem superfluos, and the way it is currently lends itself to the unmistakeable implication that Hashiram and Kabuto are doing something distinct from Naruto, which we have no evidence for. The current setup itself is using unofficial terms. @TU3 It did? All that Cerez seems to be saying is some of the rationale behind the usage of the terms. If he was, my mistake. Skitts (talk) 03:21, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

I didn't mean to imply Frog Kata was exclusive to Naruto and that, say, Hashirama couldn't potentially use it because his Sage Mode looks different, that's the sort of speculation that is the current problem. Rather, I think it should be clear that while nothing states other users with "different" Sage Modes can't do certain things (like Frog Kata or Muki Tensei), nothing confirms they can either. At the very least, the article should still have images and descriptions of the four different Sage Modes we've seen, doesn't really have to be in subsections, but that could be a way of organising it so the main section doesn't feel cluttered.--BeyondRed (talk) 05:26, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

Why is it that no one here has ever thought of there being different types of natural energy? Natural energy comes from the ground and the air, emanating from plants and animals, right? So why wouldn't the natural energy be different? Mount Myoboku and Ryuuchi cave both have large populations of toads and snakes respectively, right? So would it not make sense for most of the natural energy to be emanating from them? And that those who train in those places, learn to absorb those specific energies? Has anyone here noticed that almost every cursed seal release resembles actual animals? (If not, go to Orochimaru's Juinjutsu and look at the prison picture). And how Jugo, one that can absorb natural energy innately, can change into anything he wants? Am I seriously the only one here that knows how to put two and two together to realize that what animal you transform into is dependent on what energy you learn to absorb, and other than that, the abilities are the same? Because the way I see it, its the only logical conclusion, and the fact that there are so many that don't understand that disturbs me. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 05:45, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

I actually have thought of that exact thing before and hope it does turn out to be the explanation, but it's still speculation. We can't but information into the article if it can't be referenced or even directly implied.--BeyondRed (talk) 06:30, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
That doesn't explain why Kabuto turns into a snake-dragon when there are no snakes around. The same goes for Naruto. How can he turn into a frog sage when there are no frogs around, whose nature energy would be absorbed by Naruto? Seelentau 愛 09:17, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
Wrong :P Naruto ate a toad and Kabuto had a snake merged with him... /solved?--Elveonora (talk) 21:35, January 24, 2014 (UTC)
Naisu try but no. Seelentau 愛 21:59, January 24, 2014 (UTC)

On topic, Ulti's/Skitt's version looks very good, one more time should it be compared and checked and unless someone will come to disagree, used asap.--Elveonora (talk) 22:57, January 24, 2014 (UTC)

The only thing I would want to add is that training under a certain animal leads to a different style. I don't like how Skitt's version reads as if Kabuto just became a snake Sage for no reason at all. In fact I don't think it even mention the Ryuchi Caves at all.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 23:02, January 24, 2014 (UTC)
As much information should be preserved, just without bias, speculation and vagueness. In the advantages part, it should be added that the user may learn senjutsu techniques unique to his/her animal species, like frog kata from toads, light and stone no jutsu from snakes and so on.--Elveonora (talk) 23:07, January 24, 2014 (UTC)

@BeyondRed Huh? Again, Muki Tensei is just senjutsu, and Frog Kata just a fighting-style. Saying there's no evidence other Sages can't use them is absurd given the series explanations on what ninjustus and chakra manipulation is. If you have the necessary skills to us e a technique, barring any genetic requirement, the technique can be used. Muki Tensei is just senjutsu, ergo other Sages can use it if they knew how, given what we know about chakra manipulation; Frog Kata is useable by any true Sage according to Fukasaku (right after Naruto first entered a completed SM), provided they've learned how.

  • As for why Kabuto changes, that's a little speculatory. My version of the article does note that particular oddity about Kabuto without speculating as to the reason. If we absolutely have to, the most canonical thing would be to go to what Fukasaku said about Sage Mode boosting one's natural abilities. He noted that both Sage Mode and Kurama's chakra boosted Naruto's healing rate to absurd levels. This could account for why Kabuto progresses. He was already a snake, and SM's boosting shows true what Fuksaku said about SM, by making him a 'dragon'. The other relevant problem is Kabuto's DNA tomfoolery, so I doubt even Fukasaku would be exactly sure why. And Kabuto was already a snake, so asking why SM made him a snake is nonsensical. :p

But again, that's more speculatory than I'm comfortable putting in the article as definite.Skitts (talk) 03:42, January 25, 2014 (UTC)

Bump--Elveonora (talk) 14:34, January 30, 2014 (UTC)

Already said my peace. Skitts version is fine, I would just suggest adding different areas appear to form different styles.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 14:36, January 30, 2014 (UTC)
Action > words :P--Elveonora (talk) 14:20, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

Just wanting to say those who revised this page did a excellent job. That is all :) --Questionaredude (talk) 19:59, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Surprised no one mentioned, at all in this discussion that the reason why each Sage Mode should be separate is because each seem to enhance the user's physical abilities differently. Toad Sage Mode gives Naruto, Minato, and Jiraiya enhanced durability, speed, and strength from the feats they've shown. Snake Sage Mode enhances maneuverability, speed and agility, while keeping durability and strength the same as shown in Kabuto. And Hashirama's Sage Mode grants increased endurance and enhances his regeneration, as shown through Madara. All have shown different physical aspects that are actually improved.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 03:42, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
Because that is your opinion and has no place in this article. When someone mentions that Toad/Hashirama/Snake Sage Mode has any variations between the augmentation they offer, then we'll add it, but we don't just add what we come up with off the top of our head to articles. That's called speculation. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 03:59, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
I think you need to look up what speculation actually is. Kishimoto has been distinct on the physical enhancements Sage Mode gave those from the different disciplines. Do you see Kabuto tossing boss summons around? Especially when he failed to send Itachi fly back with a strike? Or Hashirama/Madara doing the same thing? And the durability varies wildly: only Madara's Chakra Disruption Blades have pierced Toad Sage Mode skin, while both Hashirama's and Kabuto's have been pierced by a normal blade. Seriously, feats show it. I've even added them in the past. Not everything needs to be spelled out, this is a logical conclusion.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 04:30, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

That's just your assumption. By the same logic (since Naruto could lift and throw a giant boulder) he could have just thrown Pain away from Konoha, sending him on a tour around the world, yet he didn't.--Elveonora (talk) 17:24, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

Slug Sage Mode Edit

Due to the fact that Sage Mode can be learned from the Toad Sages at Mount Myoboku, from the Snake Sage at the Ryuchi Cave, and we have learned that the slug Katsuyu comes from the Shikkotsu Forest. A place stated to be equally famous to Mount Myoboku and the Ryuchi Cave. It is heavily implied that there are slug sages at the Shikkotsu Forest where one can learn Sage Mode from them. Hashirama Senju, is capable of using a third unknown Sage Mode. Considering his granddaughter, Tsunade, can summon slugs and is called the Slug Princess it is likely that his Sage Mode is the Sage Mode learned from the slugs. Also due to the fact that slugs appear to be aligned with healing and Madara Uchiha stated that he had obtained Hashirama's regenerative abilities (after obtaining his Sage Mode) would this not further imply that he had learned his Sage Mode from the slugs? Also due to the whole toad, snake, and slug symbolism it would make sense. I know it isn't a fact so it cannot be stated. But I think it has enough evidence to be added into the trivia section perhaps? Thoughts anyone? Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 03:46, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

For all we know, Hashirama didn't even learn Sage Mode from an animal. We don't know what he summons if he even summons an animal to begin with. There is no evidence. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 04:00, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

The only known ways so far is via an animal. So where else could he learn it? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 04:25, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

It was stated there was 3 special places that taught senjutsu i believe, the bone forest place, mt. miyoboku and ryuchi cave and orochimaru said the slugs come from bone forest place or whatever. so yes it is VERY likely and possible that that is where Hashi learned it, but it can only be added when confirmed. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 04:42, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

No, it said that the "Ryūichi Cave is a place of equal fame to Myōbokuzan and the Shikkotsu Forest". ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 04:44, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

That that's the name, but he is right Senjutsu is only known to have been taught or stolen like in madara's case. It was also hinted at one point that you did not need a contract to find these places or learn senjutsu there. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 04:49, March 7, 2014 (UTC)


Yes, that's true. But the fact that toads come from Mount Myoboku and there is toad sages there, snakes come from the Ryuchi Cave and there is a snake sage there, and we have learned that there is a Shikkotsu Forest and that the slug Katsuyu comes from there. Especially since Hashirama has a third unknown Sage Mode and so far the previous two sage modes have been Toad and Snake, in order to keep the toad, snake, and slug symbolism it would make since for Hashirama to have a "Slug Sage Mode". But it's true it isn't a fact or officially confirmed. Which is why I suggested adding it to trivia. There is more evidence and similar abilities that hint at it being Slug Sage Mode. So that's why I believe it should be listed in the trivia section. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 04:55, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

My point is, until we have definite proof, we're steering away from speculation. I actually think Hashirama's Sage Mode is related to the slugs myself, but, professionally, that just doesn't belong in an article. Just because Tsunade is his granddaughter doesn't mean he shares her summons, that he has a contract with a slug (the reference you mention, Itachi, is anime-only, and therefore we must throw that out with regards to manga information. You need a contract to summon), or that he learned Sage Mode where the slugs reside. And you're missing another point. The three locations mentioned (for snakes, toads, and slugs) are only noted to be famous. For all we know, there are other places to learn senjutsu. There are just too many unknowns to say for sure. I suggest just letting it go until we get a new databook or clarification in a later chapter. Because, by your logic, we'd have to list Tsunade as a Sage because Orochimaru and Jiraiya learned Senjutsu, so therefore she must've learned it too. See where that kind of loose ends logic leads? Not very productive. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 05:02, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

Alright, I guess you're right. It would be better to wait a little longer until another source of info is released that confirms what Sage Mode Hashirama is using. I get your point. I'll just go ahead and leave this topic alone until further confirmation. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 05:07, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

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