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Structure of the article

If you look at Kabuto's Sage Mode, it's impossible to distinguish between:

  • the actual Snake Sage Mode
  • Juugo's abilities
  • Orochimaru's abilities
  • Suigetsu's abilities
  • Karin's abilities

Kabuto's sensing prowess is a combination of Sage Mode and Karin's abilities. Kabuto's healing is a combination of Orochimaru's and Karin's abilities. The ability to change your body exists with Juugo's, Orochimaru's, and Suigetsu's abilities. The way Kabuto looks is a combination of Sage Mode, Juugo's DNA and Orochimaru's DNA.

Given all that, wouldn't it be a much better idea to get rid of the heading "Snake Sage Mode" and use the heading "Kabuto's Sage Mode"? You could even extend it to the whole article:

  1. General description of Sage Mode
  2. Description of Jiraiya's Sage Mode
  3. Description of Naruto's Sage Mode
  4. Description of Kabuto's Sage Mode

It would also make it easier to turn the lists in this article into proper paragraphs.--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 18:09, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

As of my topic above, I disagree completely with the article the way it is now. Also Kabuto's sensing prowess being partially from Karin? Now then, that's a speculation. The way I get it, the only reason why Kabuto has physically changed is due to Orochimaru's DNA + Sage Transformation. And again, both Sage Modes grant equal advantages, there are no such things as "toad sm" and "snake sm" mentioned in the series--Elveonora (talk) 20:59, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

I saw your topic. We both agree that the article in its current state is bad. We agree that there is no such thing as Snake Sage Mode. And I think you agree with the structure I proposed, because you mentioned something similar.
About Karin. We know that Karin is good at sensing. We know that Kabuto has Karin's DNA. We don't know whether that influences Kabuto's sensing prowess in Sage Mode. It's just an argument against calling it Snake Sage Mode, and in favour of calling it Kabuto's Sage Mode.
The article in its current form has 12 section headings for the main content! It has general information listed under Toad Sage Mode. It has irrelevant information listed in the usage section. It might as well not have an introduction. It mentions advantages in three sections. It mentions disadvantages for Toad Sage Mode that are actually disadvantages for everyone. It's a mess.
It also ignores that we have essentially seen 4 different versions of Sage Mode. The basic one is the one we see when Fukasaku trains Naruto in Frog Kata, and has the disadvantage that you run out of sage chakra. That problem can be solved by fusing with Fukasaku and Shima as we've seen with Jiraiya (the 2nd version of Sage Mode). Naruto solves the problem with Shadow Clones, making it the 3rd version. Kabuto solves it with Juugo's DNA, making it the 4th version. But wouldn't guess that from the way the article is written.--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 22:05, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
That is incorrect. You're looking at Sage Mode as changing to a different version based on how it's used, but that's not right. We don't know about the Snake version of Sage Mode, , imperfect and perfect. Ma and Pa on your shoulders is just them using Amphibian Sage Technique to sit on their shoulder. That is not a different version of Sage Mode.
Also, having subsections is not a problem. We are an encyclopedia, we chronicle information. If that information requires heading sections, then it gets heading sections.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 16:17, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
What Fukasaku explains about Sage Mode; what the difference is between perfect sage mode and imperfect sage mode; it's all applicable to Snake Sage Mode, because we haven't been told otherwise. They're all simply Sage Mode. Kabuto uses the benefits of Sage Transformation to overcome the same problem for which Naruto used Shadow Clones.
Sage Mode on its own is only useful if you want to rearrange the stone statues of toads. Or if you can prepare Sage Mode in advance; ambush your enemy; and defeat him quickly before you run out of Sage Chakra. So yes, Sage Mode+Amphibian Sage Technique is a different version of Sage Mode, because it's far more practical than Sage Mode on its own. Without solutions like Amphibian Sage Technique, Shadow Clones and Sage transformation, all that's left of Sage Mode is an incomplete technique. So it's not just different uses; it's an incomplete technique with 3 different ways to make it complete.
So you're saying that heading sections like "advantages" and "disadvantages" are required? You're saying that headings that use the phrase "Snake Sage Mode" are required; even though that's not canon? You're reply ignores the basic fact that sections shouldn't be used if you only have one paragraph of information.
In the end this article shows that you can't keep adding information to it and hope it remains making sense. Sometimes you have to reorganise the information.--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 20:19, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
Mistake number 1: Assuming things are the same when we are not told otherwise. We don't assume when we aren't told.
Mistake number 2: No, Sage Mode + Amphibian Sage Technique is not another version of Sage Mode. It's Sage Mode with two old toads merged to your shoulder. Naruto could go Sage Mode perfectly well by remaining still and gathering natural energy. The entire point of the two toads was so one can do so in combat. Naruto has gone into Sage Mode on and off perfectly multiple times during the war without the need of a clone (or just a clone of him do it instead of his actual body), still perfect Sage Mode.
Clarification number 1: If they are required, then yes. They could also be moved into paragraph format, but I feel it's easier to have them in a listed format, that way one wants to know what the disadvantages of Sage Mode is, one just has to go to the article, click the header for disadvantages, and wow look there it is.
In the end, the issue I'm having is your belief that there are random versions of Sage Mode when, as of now, we are aware of there only being two and that's the difference between Toad and Snake. Yes, while the name may not be canon, the fact that a perfect Snake Sage has different properties than a Toad Sage is notable (Naruto is a perfect Toad Sage, the only differences is the pigment around his eyes. Meanwhile Kabuto is a perfect Snake Sage, and he gained a lot of snake features.)--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 20:42, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

@Ultimate, those are physical/visual differences, there are none in benefits. Also the former might be only due to sage transformation/jugo's dna/orochimaru's dna and not a common result--Elveonora (talk) 21:10, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

@TheUltimate3

Mistake 1 = Assuming things are different when we have no information that says otherwise. Which means we can only look at what the manga has given us, and that's ONE Sage Mode.

Mistake 2 = The whole point of Sage Mode is that it's useless in combat UNLESS

  • you arrive at the battle already in Sage Mode (like Naruto did against Pain); or
  • you manage to buy yourself some time to get into Sage Mode (like the clumsy toad did for Jiraiya; like the Alliance did for Naruto; and which Kurama's Chakra Cloak did for Naruto)

and even then you have to make sure that:

  • you either beat your opponent before you drop out of Sage Mode; or
  • you find a solution to the problem that you can't gather natural energy while moving.

Buying the time to get into Sage Mode is the easy problem. Trying to maintain Sage Mode is the difficult problem, and without a solution it's useless for combat purposes.

Mistake 3 = If you want to see Sage Mode as nothing more than gathering natural energy and mixing it to create Sage Chakra which would lead to Sage Mode, than the article shouldn't need any of the other information. You could pretty much copy and past Fukasaku's explanation to Naruto into this article and lock the page. All the other information should then be moved to the appropriate character pages. If you're going to argue a certain position, at least draw the logical conclusion from it.

Clarification number 1 = We are aware of 3 schools of teaching; 3 schools that teach Sage Mode. We now know that the Toads teach Sage Mode and that the Snakes teach Sage Mode. We were never told that these were *different* Sage Modes. The only thing they might teach different are the ways to use Sage Mode, and their preferred solutions to some of the problems associated with Sage Mode.

Clarification number 2 = We haven't been shown what the Snakes teach. We don't even know how a person that has been taught Sage Mode by the Snakes looks like. What we have seen is the end result of: (a) the Sage Mode as taught by the Snakes; and (b) a shitload of DNA modifications done by Kabuto himself. In fact, Kabuto's Sage Mode could be seen as a hybrid of Sage Mode and Sage Transformation with no answers to questions like: (i) What are the benefits of that combination?; (ii) What are the drawbacks of that combination?; and (iii) How would such a combination change the looks of someone in Sage Mode as taught by the Snakes?.

In the end Kabuto's Sage Mode is exactly the same as Sage Mode+Amphibian Sage Technique but with the added problem that we can't distinguish between the two. You're drawing the illogical conclusion that one is a different version of Sage Mode while the other is not, based on the same facts and using the same arguments. The only thing we know for sure is that perfect sage mode taught by the Snakes will lead to a different pigmentation around the eyes, though we don't know why and how the pigmentation becomes different. We haven't been told that Sage Mode taught by the Snakes will lead to different properties (e.g. speed and strength) in Sage Mode.

What we disagree about is basically this:

  • Sage Mode = impractical Sage Mode as Fukasaku taught it to Naruto before trying the Amphibian Sage Technique and failing
  • Sage Mode = impractical Sage Mode plus ways to make Sage Mode usable

Either way, the article needs rewriting to make it clear.--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 23:31, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

I almost completely agree with you, I'd rewrite the article myself, but I don't want to start an edit war. The way it's now is not only incorrect but confusing/misleading.--Elveonora (talk) 01:25, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

Wait for others to chime in on opinions and thoughts. My largest issue with what is proposed is the idea that there are 4 different versions of Sage Mode based on if a toad is on your shoulder or not, but I don't have the patients to continue reading/responding to such incredibly long responses.
Rewriting an article is a bigger task than a single section, wait for others to voice opinions before making a move.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 04:46, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
I hope that my analogy to incomplete technique versus completed technique helps with understanding what I mean when I used the word "version".--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 19:11, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

Not really a rewriting, just merging of sections, separating of others, cutting here and pasting there etc. also removal of speculation--Elveonora (talk) 05:16, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

How is this article confusing? I don't know how much this will help but as the article stands now I am fine with it. The only reason it is confusing to you guys is because you're taking things you don't have a clue about and adding them to the mix. It should be:

  • Sage Mode-Toads
    • mention all we know
      • Also make note of the perfect balance and imperfect balance that the two disciples have achieved
    • acknowledge the traditional method (with a sage toad to aid in process)
      • also mention the way Naruto uses it (with clones)
  • Sage Mode- Snakes
    • Assume that everything Kabuto did then is a product of Sage Mode unless/until mentioned/told otherwise. Then annotations can be made.

All that information is represented on the articles, it's just that you have all gone too far in dissecting Kabuto's Sage Mode. I realise that the people who always have problems with the way articles are, are the ones that go off on tangents and want to jump the proverbial gun and we don't do that here. Once the information is available to us, where we can reference it, and have evidence then that's when we move, not before. I'm not sure if you guys understand or no, but this is a method that has to be used to streamline content on the wikia so we don't lose credibility in the information that is found here.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 13:05, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

The only thing I could advocate for regarding this page, is that the image in the infobox is no longer accurate and a neutral one, possibly just showing the mixing/balancing of natural energy would be better.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 13:09, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

@Cerez365...That assumption flies in the face of everything we've been shown in the manga. Kabuto's appearance was already changing when he put Orochimaru's DNA in himself. And everyone that uses a derivative of Juugo's abilities changes his appearance, just like Juugo himself does. Kabuto is using Sage Mode and Sage Transformation together, just like Jiraiya uses Sage Mode and Amphibian Sage Technique together. You can't just assume that everything Kabuto does is the result of Sage Mode, because it's explicitly said that it isn't. Why else would the DNA of Juugo, Karin and Suigetsu be mentioned?
The structure should be:
  • Sage Mode
    • Mention all we know (basically everything that Fukasaku explained).
      • Mention the existence perfect sage mode and imperfect sage mode.
      • Mention the existence of 3 places where Sage Mode is taught, and that the pigmentation around the eyes show at which place you learned Sage Mode.
      • Mention that most users have a method of making it more usable in combat.
  • Jiraiya's Sage Mode
    • Mention that Jiraiya is an imperfect sage, and that he uses the traditional method as taught by the toads to make Sage Mode usable in combat and refer to the article Amphibian Sage Technique.
  • Naruto's Sage Mode
    • Mention that Naruto is a perfect Sage.
    • Mention that Naruto couldn't use the method taught by the toads and had to come up with his own solution: Shadow Clones (and how he used it in his battle with Pain, maybe).
  • Kabuto's Sage Mode
    • Mention that Kabuto learned Sage Mode from the Snakes; that he would therefore look more like a snake than a toad; and that it's unknown how a Sage would look in its pure Snake form.
    • Mention that Kabuto used Juugo's DNA and Sage Transformation to solve the same problem that Naruto used Shadow Clones for.
    • Mention how Kabuto infused himself with DNA from Karin and Suigetsu and refer to the relevant section in Kabuto's character article.
That's a far more usable and canon compliant structure than the current article has. It also prevents unnecessary duplication of information (see advantages and disadvantages sections). It also allows contributors to compare a specific character's use of Sage Mode against the general characteristics of Sage Mode, instead of forcing a reader to compare and contrast various uses of Sage Mode against eachother.--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 14:46, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
  • Kabuto's appearance changed because Orochimaru's cells were fighting to take over Kabuto's body. That has nothing to do with Jūgo. It's akin to Hashirama's cells trying to turn Danzō into a tree, or else have them sprouting his face on his arm and Madara's chest, so you're wrong in that regard.
  • It's not an assumption, it's lumping all the information together. I did not say they weren't factors into Kabuto's abilities but as this point, we're unable to discern what is what except for what has been told to us:
    • How do you know that Kabuto is using Sage Transformation and not just using Jūgo's ability to passively absorb chakra? How do you know that that's simply how someone who uses snake Sage Mode is supposed to look?
    • How do you know that Kabuto's been using Karin's Mind Eye of the Kagura (which is ridiculously impossible to steal via DNA) and just doesn't possess her ability to heal?
    • As for Suigetsu, Kabuto was able to copy his Hydrification Technique and create the Body Fluid Shedding Technique.
  • There is no such thing as perfect and imperfect Sage Mode. These are terms that we engineered for compartmentalising sake all of which is already mentioned. Ergo, Naruto and Jiraiya's forms don't have to be separated any more than they are now.
  • Kabuto's:
    • You're assuming that's not what a "pure" Sage would look like. There's nothing to compare it to, so where are you forming your basis from? SPECULATION
Kabuto assimilated the DNA of Jūgo to replicate his clan's ability to passively absorb natural energy, thus allowing him to continuously collect the energy even while moving.
    • Information about the assimilation of DNA unrelated to his Sage Mode is mentioned in his article.
  • Like I've said before, I personally see nothing wrong with the article's structure and the most I would change is a picture or two. We are supposed to chronicle what is said in the series not the foregone conclusions that we draw on our own.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 16:02, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

@Cerez365...You're committing quite a few strawman fallacies to "prove" that I'm wrong. Cut it out!

You insist on using the phrase "ability to passively absorb natural energy". Fine, substitute that every time I use the phrase Sage Transformation. It doesn't alter my argument, but you seem to ignore that part in favour of saying that I'm wrong. (BTW, isn't Sage Transformation the name of Juugo's kekkei genkai?)

You acknowledge that there are factors contributing to Kabuto's appearance and abilities. And yet you fail to draw logical conclusions from that; conclusions that are consistent with the manga.

  1. We know how a perfect toad sage looks like: perfectly human except for the pigmentation around the eyes. The logical conclusion is that it's the same for a perfect snake sage. Is that speculation? Perhaps, but the significant part is that it's less speculative than the opposite conclusion (which would be that a snake sage is supposed to look like Kabuto did).
  2. We know that quite a few things that Kabuto assimilated will change your appearance. Sage Mode is just one of several factors that change Kabuto's appearance. The logical conclusion is that we're seeing Kabuto's Sage Mode. The illogical conclusion is that we're seeing "Snake Sage Mode".
  3. The manga says that there are 3 places that teach Sage Mode. The manga doesn't say that there are 3 different Sage Modes corresponding to 3 different animals. The logical conclusion is that there is only one Sage Mode.
  4. The manga is pretty clear about the fact that Sage Mode needs something to make it useful in combat. It's why I referred to Sage Mode as an incomplete technique (as well as to clarify my use of the word "version"). The manga has shown us three ways:
    1. Sage Mode + Amphibian Sage Technique
    2. Sage Mode + Shadow Clone Technique
    3. Sage Mode + Jūgo's ability to passively absorb natural energy

Given this information from the manga, it makes sense to treat the three times we've seen Sage Mode used in combat (the "completed" sage mode) just as important as the ("incomplete") Sage Mode.

You say that: We are supposed to chronicle what is said in the series not the foregone conclusions that we draw on our own. But that's exactly the problem with the current article. Calling it "Toad Sage Mode" and "Snake Sage Mode" emphasizes the personal interpretation of fans. Simply calling it "Jiraiya's Sage Mode", "Naruto's Sage Mode" and "Kabuto's Sage Mode" de-emphasizes any personal interpretation and allows us to emphasize what is actually said in the manga.--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 19:03, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

I see no reason no reason to change the article. It's fine as is for me. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:27, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

@Omni,

  • the intro is : "Sage Mode is the result of using natural energy along with a ninja's normal chakra to drastically empower all their abilities"

Should be: "Sage Mode is a special technique used by Sages of Mount Myōboku and Ryūchi Cave that empowers their abilities. Another legendary place known as Shikkotsu Forest also exists, but it's yet to appear along with it's inhabitants and a Sage representative" Also as far as I know, Fukasaku for example isn't a ninja, so theoretically even a samurai could learn it or anyone who is skilled with chakra manipulation for that matter. My version sounds more appropriate as an intro imo. The part about it's workings should be a solely separate section as there's no need to repeat some of the information twice, and Shinobi again should be changed into user/individual or something.

It's an assumption/speculation:

  • That Naruto/Kabuto have different power-ups while it's the very same and only technique using the same natural energy from around them, the terms "snake sage mode/toad snake mode" are basically fanon, there's not even a slight hint that there are more versions and that the benefits they grant differ.
  • That Kabuto uses perfect/imperfect Sage Mode (we don't know even if it's most likely perfect, but since there are other factors as Orochimaru and Jugo's DNA in the play, it should be called Kabuto's Sage Mode) so stating that horns and shit are a sign of a true snake sage is double speculative. EDIT: already changed/removed partially.

So in short, this is how I imagine it:

  • intro/overview in a nutshell, my proposal
  • usage/workings/mechanics describing what it is more in detail and containing information about both it's advantages and disadvantages
  • forms, stating what a perfect and imperfect sages are
  • users: "Naruto in Sage Mode, Jiraiya in Sage Mode, Kabuto in Sage Mode" with a picture of each representative and a short history about their training and a summary about their "differences and workarounds"--Elveonora (talk) 03:49, December 18, 2012 (UTC)

Strawman fallacies? Friend when you're wrong, you're wrong. Sage Transformation is what happens to the clan members as a result of absorbing the natural energy. Use context clues and figure that out. All I was pointing out was that the info was reflected in the article. And again to address your list:

  1. Both Jiraiya and Naruto's use are mentioned and categorised
  2. Incorrect. The only thing that changed Kabuto appearance was what he took from Orochimaru ergo why Kabuto looked like that when he reabsorbed his "stuff" from Kabuto. If Kabuto had turned out looking like Kevin Levin, you would have had more of an argument. Without even adding the speculation that to think you could absorb a Senju clan descendant and not so much as change hair colour.
  3. The is not one sage mode. There is simple at least three different animals that learned how to absorb, balance and use Sage Mode. Why is this point even here in the first place?
  4. There is no need to me, to mention the different uses of Sage Mode outside said person's section. All the information is represented in the article and it is neither confusing nor lost, and believe me every time something like this comes up I use third party options from people not on the site.

In any case I'm done with this discussion, this seems like another of those lost causes/false alarms.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 06:22, December 18, 2012 (UTC)

seriously?

Wood Release Sage Mode/Hashirama's Sage Mode? For the 1000th time, there's only ONE Sage Mode. Why are animal/special labels even needed? It can be sorted into fewer sections. The article makes it sound and appear like each is a different technique. I'm really not happy with the way it is, as you might have noticed by now (viz above convos) I will take care of this myself if you don't mind, it almost has fanon content. The article contains made-up terms and speculation--Elveonora (talk) 13:04, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

As far that can be gathered, each form is different. The First didn't gain any animal traits (frog eyes of Toad, anything of Snake). The article (shouldn't) make it sound like different techniques, but they are at least different styles, hence why they are in one article instead of two or three.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 13:31, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

The problem I see, is that the labels are user-made, wood sage mode sounds... weird at least. From what we were told Sage Mode is (state a user enters after successfully combining natural energy with the other two that make up chakra and balancing it equally) the animal-like-traits that differ between users don't necessarily mean a variant. As canonical as it gets, Jiraiya got teleported in the anime to Mount Myōboku because he had "an affinity for toads" (whatever that means, perhaps his personality being reminiscent of a toad) so figure the physical changes have to do with their "affinities" rather than being a variant? At least the advantages and disadvantages sections should be merged--Elveonora (talk) 13:41, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

Wood Sage Mode sounds just as outlandish as anything else this manga creates, but we aren't calling it that yet. The First's sage mode is different as it has now physical changes that resemble the other two but is mentioned for it. Anyway using the word "affinities" is still basically saying that their Sage Mode falls under different types, except you are using a fancier word.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 13:49, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
Even so...from what was gathered so far, all sage modes give a equally broad range of certain abilities...enhanced physical abilities, superior ninjutsu skills, access to senjutsu techniques and access to certain animal traits. Hashirama aside, i believe the distinction between snake and toad sage modes should be erased, since both give apparently equal benefits. Darksusanoo (talk) 13:57, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't say, just to step back a relevant topic or two, Hashirama didn't have any animalistic traits. It could be that we don't know what animal it is. For all we know, it could be the Slug version (which follows the pattern of Frog (Gama) and Snake (Manda)). But that being said, even if not the slug, we still do not know what animal his markings could represent, if they do at all. At this point, we know the only other known sage modes are animals and the pattern suggests it is an animal thing, specifically (at least plot-wise) the summons. And of course "Wood Sage Mode" could be exactly what it is, but we're left with more questions with that as to how and why, and who taught him, versus an animal that can teach him (and what animal). And as for erasing things, I think that is overzealous and foolish going that far into oversimplification simply because of a bias. They are both sage modes, but they are not the same sage mode. If I remember correctly, there is a fallacy that follows that pattern. --98.101.165.89 (talk) 14:04, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

In my opinion, the natural energy transforms them according to what affinity they have. But that doesn't mean each of them differ, why should we list that it gives speed, strength, durability, etc. to every user while it's enough to mention it once for example? If we are listing it like that, then Hashirama's should be nicknamed "Third Eye Sage Mode" or "Buddha Sage Mode" 0_o See? this is why it should be merged and differences noted with pictures alone. About Hashirama, why does it have to be an animal that taught him it? Perhaps he figured how to harvest natural energy by himself, that would explain the third eye and buddha--Elveonora (talk) 14:07, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

Your opinion natural energy changes them by affinity. What we have seen is that if a Toad teaches you their method of Sage Mode, you run the risk of turning into a giant frog, as did the Preta Path did when it absorbed Naruto's senjutsu chakra.
We don't know what method Hashirama learned Sage Mode. He could be a Wood Sage, he could be a Slug Sage, he could be a Hashirama Sage. That's why it's mentioned that why it's just mentioned that he didn't fit the others.
But I personally grow weary of this discussion, as it is the exact same discussion that is directly over this one. Do what you want I'll edit it the way I feel afterwards if that will make this battle of semantics end. But know this, I will make edits afterwards.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 14:17, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks and I agree, no worries as I don't plan on adding or removing anything (with an exception of something being mentioned more than once), only merging, cutting/pasting so it flows better. EDIT: but you are right about Pain, he started turning frog as well, hopefully it will be explained in a databook. About Hashirama, I removed the headline because the section was empty, feel free to make it for him--Elveonora (talk) 14:25, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

@Elv -- Even so, the modes are different and while there are some base similarities, each mode that we know of (Toad and Snake) have more than quit a few differences in what it gives the user compared to the other. It's why I said they're both sage modes, but they're not the same sage mode. Otherwise, they wouldn't even have the animalistic distinction. Or, well, that last parti s my opinion, at least. But regardless, merging would harm them more than help because there's still bits of information that would have to be separated which simply cannot be merged. Not to mention there's no cause for assuming they're the same sage mode. As for Hashirama's -- it could very well be that. But, personally, I don't think we can say either way till we are given the information. Yet going on what we do know about other sage modes... @Ultimate -- I think, and it is my opinion, it can all be best summed up with a quote from you, "The article (shouldn't) make it sound like different techniques, but they are at least different styles, hence why they are in one article instead of two or three" --98.101.165.89 (talk) 14:26, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

@Elveonora: We'll see.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 14:28, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

Well, we shouldn't assume that each variant gives different attributes as absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If so, then there's nothing to mention in "Hashirama's Sage Mode" because all he did was summon a giant statue, that's no proof of strength, speed, durability etc. and if we do, then we should also list equal feats for Naruto and Kabuto for example, and with that reason in mind, it has to be mentioned just once for all of them. Since a headline with a picture and one line for Hashirama isn't enough, that's why I'm for "advantages" section when all of them are listed with: "Sage Mode among user grants the following enhancements to attributes that might vary slightly" I kinda imagine it like the Susanoo articles with pictures at the bottom. I will try to cook something and if yay then yay and if nay then nay--Elveonora (talk) 14:42, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

Well it's not an assumption as Kabuto has listed things that the Snake Mode gave that differs from Toad, IIRC. It is also why I say we shouldn't do anything with Hashi till we know exactly what kind of Sage mode it is. But that sounds fine, we can always edit and fix things to make it better. --98.101.165.89 (talk) 15:10, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

Any examples?--Elveonora (talk) 15:20, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

I seriously don't see a reason for multiple sage modes either. Other than appearance, no one has shown abilities that are different from each other. Also, animal traits only appear on imperfect sages. Otherwise its just pigmentation and the eyes of the animal. (Hashirama's eyes did change. I don't see why people think he doesn't have an animal.) People say that Kabuto said he had different abilities than toad sage mode. Like what? Perceptive abilities? Same thing as Naruto's chakra sensing ability. He totally sensed Sasuke's arrow coming after him. And Sasuke and Itachi when he was blind. Snake eyelid's? Jiraiya proved that one can gain traits of one's animal by unbalancing the natural energy. There's nothing majorly different from any of the sage modes. The general abilities of each should be listed in one section, instead of duplicated like it is. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 17:34, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

"applauds" also Kabuto's messed up jaw and snake eyes aren't sage mode stuff, he had these from Oro's DNA--Elveonora (talk) 17:59, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

Orochimaru himself never displayed any of those. Only thing mouth related I recall Orochimaru doing was puking himself anew and healed. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:20, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
I believe that everyone by now knows that there is only one Sage Mode taught/learnt differently by several other animals/people. With that in mind, this is how the wikia has chosen to represent the information so that all of it is not one giant section. I also do not think we should rush to conclude where Hashirama learned Sage Mode, nor do I believe that his Sage Mode is wood related. They are nothing more than headings based on necessity.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 23:27, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
I'm going to have to side with Elveonora on this one. The current structure/sectioning of this article is just.... ew, and it seems to make assumptions it shouldn't, case and point: "Senju Sage Mode". O_o For one, ALL that Sage Mode is, is balancing Natural energy with the ninja's Spiritual and Physical energy. That's it. Natural energy doesn't come in different flavours. Kabuto's different appearance could easily be explained by the fact that he took on the DNA of many individuals, most notably Orochimaru, hence the appearance. Also, we don't actually know if Hashirama mastered Sage Mode, though I suppose that's a somewhat reasonable assumption, though if it were up to me we'd hold off on that. Also, Hashi's Senjustu section (in his article) has fluff. *goes to fix* Skitts (talk) 13:57, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
Again, it is established that there is one Sage Mode that is used differently based on how people learn it. These titles are nothing more than a means to differentiate the abilities that persons learn and display. Maybe if the article were to actually mention this, it would be better? You could not expect someone that learned from frog to be using White Rage Technique or a Snake to use Frog Kata, hence everything is not lumped together, but all are in their respective sections. While I am not too certain about the title "Senju Sage Mode" --Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 14:56, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

Even with your edits Cerez, the main problem still stays. For example, Frog Kata isn't a part of Sage Mode, it's a senjutsu technique taught by toads. Then there's this perception/sensory thing, viz translation says sensory in Kabuto's case as well, confirmed by Seelentau. The jaw part, Orochimaru has it as well, just look at his cheeks and the brille part, what does it have to do with Sage Mode? Figure that a man with snake dna has snake eyes even without it? The article is still structured in a way that states that each "animal version" or what **** gives different powers. All Sage Mode users have the same enhancements, be it them dog, cat, boar or whatever animal. Only unique techniques like Frog Kata or long tongue, turn rock alive or annoying genjutsu sound differ--Elveonora (talk) 18:10, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

I can't agree with that. I've never seen Orochimaru open his mouth like that nor use brille to cover his eyes. People at times seem to forget that Orochimaru is a human being, not a snake. Yes he has a snake form which his body has been "reduced" to but for all intents an purposes, he is a human that uses snake-motif techniques. This is why he was not revived as a snake but with a human body. Kabuto's transformation could easily be akin to Jiraiya purposefully growing frog legs/arms to use in his battle against Pain. There is a general section in the article which mentions what Sage Mode grants a user, though we don't even know that to be true except for the bolstering of techniques. In my opinion, Sage Mode does grant the same basic abilities which is mentioned in the article, but we can't just ignore the person/mode specific abilities. How else would we be able to account for them? --Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 18:20, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

I don't share your sentiments, he turned his body into a giant white snake, even tho he can change back at will, his human form is only a leftover of his humanity, for what I would say, he has more snake genes than human genes. Kabuto grew scales when he injected himself, not dark hair. And just because we haven't seen Oro doing creepy jaw thing and protect eyes against visual genjutsu thingy doesn't mean he can't. He can extend any part of his body with Soft Physique Modification. About Kabuto, even if he changed himself further into a snake purposely, it's not a part of Sage Mode, just like Jiraiya's toad features aren't, turning animal happens when the natural energy isn't completely balanced. About specific abilities, there's link to list of senjutsu techniques down there, it can be expanded with them being actually listed--Elveonora (talk) 19:05, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

Also, Kabuto opened his jaws that wide when he entered slitering snake mode. And again when he swallowed Yamato. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 20:15, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

Pretty much, there's no exclusive things in between them as they all are one and the same. That's like saying shadow clone performed by toad differs from one done by a human--Elveonora (talk) 20:21, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

The problem with the current version is that it implies Kabuto can't do certain things that Naruto and Jiraiya could, rather than leaving it ambiguous. Kabuto didn't actually show whether he can sense chakra like Naruto, for example, but the article's current layout would imply to a reader that he can't. As for unique traits used by Kabuto, there was just White Rage and Muki Tensei, which were specific examples of senjutsu, and possibly his snake brille, but we can't say for sure whether it was from Sage Mode or Orochimaru's white snake DNA. Kabuto was even more snake-like than Orochimaru after all, since he developed scales rather than just pale skin.--BeyondRed (talk) 22:03, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

He did, he dodged Sasuke's arrow without looking and commented on sensory ability.--Elveonora (talk) 23:02, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

I took that to be the same as Naruto's enhanced perceptiveness allowing him to dodge the Third Raikage's attack in Sage Mode, but both might be applications of the general sensory ability.--BeyondRed (talk) 00:01, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
All I'm going to say at this point is, I will not have information lost, because it's stupid to lose information for no reason.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 00:13, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

To this discussion, i'm forced to agree that there is only one Sage Mode. As far as i see it all users of it have displayed equal benefits all around. Let's see:

  • Enhanced physical and perceptive abilities - Check
  • Increased potency of all ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu - Check
  • Gained sensory capabilities - Check
  • Partial animal shape-shifting abilities - Check

As for the dissadvantages we already known those, since it's universal...to me the only difference lies in which sage trains you, but the general abilities all appear to be the same...Darksusanoo (talk) 21:44, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

Of course there's only one Sennin Mode. Why would there be more? The Sennin Mode is the state of having natural energy in your body, you don't even need to have control over it (like Jiraiya). But I still think we should differentiate the different teachers of the Sennin Mode and how the user looks different depending on who trained him. Seelentau 愛 21:51, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

But the whole problem of this discussion is that...by the way the article is constructed...outright states, that each Sage Mode (Toad, Snake, Slug?) is it own, with different gains and losses, while the three known examples (Jiraiya, Naruto, Kabuto) have displayed near identical benefits. The only actual difference seems to rely on the influence of the animal sage that trains the user, but in practical, combat terms it maybe all the same. Darksusanoo (talk) 22:01, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

Well, who is to say they are even actually the same? All can be sage modes, but not be the same thing, as I mentioned earlier. We have plenty of cases of "All A are B but not all B are A", etc. It's one of the principles of logic, and of course has a fallacy to go along with it. It also doesn't make sense that if all one has to do is enter the singular and nonspecific sage mode is acquire and balance natural energy where there is even a difference between the transformation between the types of Sage Modes we know of. What causes Naruto and Jiraiya to change into their respective sage mode; what of Kabuto? The way they may acquire it is the same, in theory. But is it? All they're doing is gathering and balancing natural energy, so, reiterating -- why the change in their physiology of any form, whether markings or other? Maybe it's plot-no-jutsu but then if so, why are we coming to this point in the discussion of whether to merge or not? That in and of itself is speculation. What tells us that the Sage Mode is only one thing for each person. And what logic can you use to support that, while also explaining the differences in the physiology of the users? --98.101.165.89 (talk) 23:57, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

Read above the affinity thing, that is a possible explanation. Why they do turn animal is completely irrelevant tho, in terms of what this technique does, it should be logically even among all. There's only one kind of natural energy, A bit of speculation, but look at Jugo and the Ten-Tails, the former's body can shapeshift into multiple forms, possibly anything he wishes and his mentality is unstable. Ten-Tails is a physical manifestation of natural energy, it appears to be sentient only on a primitive level at best and it transforms as well, suggesting it's dependent on thoughts, feelings, personality etc. Eyes are the mirror of the soul after all ;D Curse Mark users for example, Sasuke personified himself with a hawk and his form had wings and the marking on his nose could be a beak, he also managed to replace his lost wing with snakes during his fight against Deidara--Elveonora (talk) 00:48, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't explain it, however, as there are places and people (Sages/animals) that teach it. And everything we know up until now, excluding Hashirama (which I feel, speculatory, is Slug), is that you learn it at a special place from special animal sages, and if we postulate that the 3rd place Kabuto mentioned is for the Slug sage, it only makes the case that much stronger. Why would an affinity matter? Why would the animal teachers matter, if its all the same thing? And turning into an animal isn't irrelevant, either, we were first introduced to "You turn into a Frog statue if you fail.", to what would be highly likely: "You may turn into a Snake (or dragon) statue if you fail." But it, like I stated above, comes down to what? Kabuto could've potentially learned from the frogs as much as Naruto could the White Snake Sage. But you are right in that "in terms of what this technique does" is create something, but that comes from senjutsu and not Sage Mode, I would postulate. Though I don't know how to clarify that as of this moment. Presently, I just do not see enough, or any, evidence to suggest they are one and the same, while also providing evidence to provide an example of why there are differences.

Edit: I also want to reiterate something someone mentioned above about how the... Preva path? (Tired atm) turned into a frog statue. But, excluding plot-no-jutsu, why would that happen?--98.101.165.89 (talk) 01:33, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

I for one, don't think its some sort of affinity. I think sages learn how to absorb natural energy from the specific animal they're learning it from. Natural energy comes from everything, so its logical to think that there are different types of it. It would not only explain why preta turned into a toad, but also why Jugo can change his body into multiple forms, and the cursed seals' resemblance to multiple animals. My logic behind it is that the only differences between sage modes are the ability to transform parts of the body into the animal learned from when the natural energy is unbalanced, as proven in Jiraiya's, and possibly Kabuto's case. Because other than that, they have yet to show any difference from each other. And the way I see it, that info can easily be placed separately while the shared abilities are merged into one section. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 07:29, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

That would make sense, in case if only Naruto hadn't turned toad when absorbing it outside of Mount Myōboku it does happen everywhere even in places where no toads are nearby. Also assuming there are multiple forms of natural energy isn't viable since we weren't told as such, quite the opposite, it's in the earth, atmosphere, all around. When Jugo changed his arm during the Oro revival scene, he called it his original Sage Transformation, meaning that's what it looks like when he is in control, but when he goes berserk, the forms are random. That's why I think natural energy changes them accordingly to their mental state. Kabuto turned "dragon" not because he surpassed Orochimaru, but because he only thought he did, thinking himself superior. I don't think it matters who taught it whom, but if you associate with them.--Elveonora (talk) 14:58, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

And everything you just mentioned is speculation and what you believe happened when compared to what we actually know. Naruto learned Sage Mode from toads, hence toad if you fail, toad if you absorb senjutsu chakra and can't control it, toad like if can't balance it correctly. Kabuto learned Sage Mode from snakes, thus, snake.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 15:46, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
I'm with Ultimate here. This entire argument is ridiculous. We have the three different variations of Susanoo, based on user, on its page, despite the fact that it is the same technique. All of the differences of each unique Susanoo is already listed on the character's page itself. The same should happen here. The different variations of Sage Mode should be mentioned. If anything, it should be done like Susanno was (i.e., "Naruto Uzumaki's Version", "Jiraiya's Version", "Kabuto Yakushi's Version", and "Hashirama Senju's Version") listing the things specific to each Sage Mode. Regardless of whether or not Sage Mode is the same across the board (and clearly it is not), each user has used it very differently from each other, thus far, and therefore, I think it would be a loss of information to take the sections out. And Elve, enough speculation. Use the cold-hard facts, as in what we have physically seen and heard from the anime/manga as facts, not "what-ifs". ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 16:27, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

Susanoo is a different case, it's a physical manifestation of a MS user's chakra, of course it will differ between users. I agree with the "x user version" thing, would be better, a nice compromise if it be--Elveonora (talk) 16:52, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

@ Ultimate -- Correct. We know the process of absorbing natural energy is the same for all. We are not really told how Sage Mode is activated, but it is implied that it is simply by absorbing natural energy in large amounts; Naruto simply meditates and it occurs. So there's no differentiating factor for the different sage modes, and yet there are differences between them. While there may be similarities in the advantages it provides, that is due to the body flowing and being in harmony with natural energy -- a side product, if you will, instead of Sage Mode itself . Note: Sounds like speculation, could be speculation but I think based on Juugo and the other things we know about natural energy and sages it isn't speculation. But like I pointed out about Juugo and his clan, they can transform -- Juugo transforming into different things when he wants -- and their bodies and more are boosted with natural energy. The end product is "Sage Transformation", a lot like Sage Mode. The latter, however, utilizing senjutsu chakra at the end.
@ Elv -- As for Kabuto being a Dragon versus a snake, I am going to assume (speculation)it is because the idea that dragons are above snakes in a lot of Asian cultures, sometimes being the same animal but the dragon being more heavenly or godly (more powerful/advanced, in other words). Or, at least, that is what I understood when I first read the chapter, otherwise I do not think it would've even been mentioned by Kish. Kabuto may not even be perfect, based on his anatomy. Yes, some of it is due to the experiments and other things, but it also reflects the imperfect changes we've seen in Jiraiya.
At any rate, Tl;DR version: There's no evidence to suggest Sage Mode is only singular thing, with vast physical differences between how the senjutsu reacts within the users and others (Preta Path changing). Rather, it is senjutsu that provides the similar bonuses, corroborated by Juugo and dialogue from others. I postulate for now there are 3 known, different, Sage Modes as all the evidence points to that. That being said (and yes, it is turning out to be long again...) the page could reflect that in a way that combines the ability bonuses, but still makes sure to differentiate between the different modes.

Edit: Note: @Ten Tailed, I typed all of this before I saw yours--98.101.165.89 (talk) 16:58, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

@98xxxsomething, bingo, that's exactly what the topic was about before it has gone offtopic thanks to me included (just wanted to throw around some theories and opinions) it's pointless to have listed "increased strength, speed, stamina, durability etc." for every of them since it's even, that's basically having the same thing there multiple times. Also naming of each "variant" should be changed from animal to user's name as Fox suggested and I would agree with. That way, it's a neutral approach that doesn't necessarily speculate that each of them differs nor that they don't, meaning that the differences vary and depend on it's user rather than it being a different "version" of Sage Mode each time--Elveonora (talk) 17:07, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

That does seem like an appropriate compromise...listing the general benefits under one banner, while showcasing each individual mode showed by it's user, rather than repeating them over and over. Darksusanoo (talk) 17:21, February 23, 2013 (UTC)


Here's something some of you are forgetting: Sage Mode improves the user's natural abilities. For example, Fukusaku thought to himself that Naruto's healing rate had been vastly improved because of both Kurama and Natural energy. Kabuto becoming a 'Dragon' was, as we know, because of the whole dragons being (basically) super snakes, referring to him surpassing Orochimaru. Again, Sage Mode is just balancing Nature's energy with the energies within the medium, imrpoving their own innate abilities. Kabuto developed NO new snake-related abilities as a result of Sage Mode. The jaw thing was done sans-Sage Mode to swallow up Yamato on the Island Turtle. He gained the sensor-type chakra detection, as per dodging Susanoo's arrow. Everthing I recall Kabuto doing non-jutsu-wise was simply improved snake-esque abilities. Sage Mode appears to be more related to Toads anyways, considering failing to maintain adequate control over the energy results in becoming a petrified toad. Skitts (talk) 18:09, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

If that were true, neither the Ryuchi Cave, nor the White Snake Sage would exist...from where it stands the animal traits a Sage Mode user gains are dependant on which animal sage trains them, but that's about it. The benefits they gain have so far been mostly the same. As for the sage techniques themselves, it's obvious each sage has learned/developed their own techniques from sage mode. Darksusanoo (talk) 18:23, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
But that's just it, Kabuto was already snake-y prior to Sage Mode, so I don't really see what snake traits he acquired that he didn't already have, from scales to belly tail (lool). All that happened was he got.... horny. :) Skitts (talk) 18:35, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
Lol, funny...The snake brille, the way he cracked open his jaw to catch sasuke...when he did that to Yamato, he had to change to a completely new form...when Jiraiya faced Nagato, he changed the shape of his hands and feet into toad ones for increased mobility...he had snake anatomy before, but that doesn't mean he couldn't gain further access to it through Sage mode. Darksusanoo (talk) 18:57, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
I think we're talking past each other. :) I'm agreeing with that last part you said. Sage Mode enhances the user's innate abilities as well (Fukusaku said it increased Naruto's healing rate, for ex.), and Kabuto already basically was a snake, so no surprise in that department. Skitts (talk) 19:19, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I feel like the topic is over, half of it is garbage and the relevant stuff has been concluded, I will try to cook it up later on (when I feel like it) accordingly to the proposal--Elveonora (talk) 19:26, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

The benefits are the same, but I want to make sure it's understood that it isn't sage mode in and of itself, but senjutsu that provides the bonuses to enhanced physiology, etc. As well as Toad Sage and Snake Sage are different Sage Modes in how they work, normal senjutsu bonuses aside (that Sage Mode doesnt exist by itself). While Kabuto may exhibit some more Orochimaru characteristics, his form differs from a normal person while in Snake Sage Mode. At some point Orochimaru may have altered himself to fit the Snake Sage persona, as well, if we go by why he wants a new body to use sage mode. The horns may be the sign of a True/perfect Snake Sage, going on what Kabuto says. And while it may be speculation, I do think we can agree that a Snake Sage wouldn't be able to perform any Toad Sage abilities, and vice versa. Kabuto also, during Hakugeki, is able to use his Snake Sage abilities (cornea; not including the modifications from Suigetsu and etc) to allow him to function while Sasuke and Itachi are rendered useless. There are many things to remember to distinguish and separate, and I just would not like them to be lost and for the page to reflect that there's only one actual mode when it's not the case --98.101.165.89 (talk) 21:51, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

Bruh, Just leave it the way it is, it's more understandable. For all I care, Naruto and Jiraiya learned Sage Mode from the toads and so therefore has the support (summoning) and trait-like from the toads and that Kabuto and maybe Oro learned Sage Mode from the Snakes and therefore has the support and also trait-like that of a Snake ..... —This unsigned comment was made by 75.170.19.115 (talkcontribs) .

@98.101.165.89 Erm, nuuu. For one, we've never seen a 'regular person in snake Sage Mode', so don't know where you got that from. So far, the only potentially valid variation brought up in support of a distinguished Sage Mode has really been Kabuto's cornea, and even that has been decently shown to be explainable given what else we know about Sage Mode enhancing the user's abilities. Everything else so far has been mere mention of different techniques, which is a non-issue considering there are innumerable ways to manipulate one's chakra to do different things, even within the same class/sub-class of techniques (ex: Wind Release: Rasengan & Wind Release: Rasenshuriken). So basically my suggestions are the following:

Group everthing into 2 sections, "Imperfect Sage Mode", and "Sage Mode". The former's contents are obvious. The latter however should initially go over the know benefits of Sage Mode, increased jutsu strength and bodily prowess (speed, sensory perception, etc), Chakra-sensing, Amplified innate abilities, etc. I think a good compromise would be to indicate the somewhat uncertainty that some here have of there being possibly distinct SM flavours. But really, that slight uncertainty shouldn't be dictating the structure of the article, and reduce the large amount of redundancy currently in it. Skitts (talk) 05:43, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

@Skitts -- Thankfully you misunderstood what I meant by normal/regular person. I meant just that -- a normal or regular person -- not a sage. And there are plenty of variations, moreso on the speculative side however, that are either outright stated or could be inferred. Though I do not wish to go back into redundant topics; and to ignore what has been established, the different modes, despite the fact there's no support for the concept or idea of one singular, global sage mode, nor is it even suggested in Naruto, seems foolhardy, IMHO. Until there's more information available regarding the validity of those claims (Sage Mode being just Sage Mode and there's absolutely no differences between the types (which logically doesn't even make sense given the fact they exist)), or any other ideas regarding it: I think the article should continue as it is with slight alterations to clean it up and make it more concise, less redundant; not to the extent of changing the meanings of things, however. --98.101.165.89 (talk) 20:09, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

But I've seen nothing inferring the existence of different kinds of Sage Mode. You don't assume a difference without a stated reason/heavily implied distinction in the series. Based on what both Fukasaku and Kabuto have said, Sage Mode = Balancing natural energy with your own to increase overall prowess, QED, nothing else. Therefore that's what it is. Technique sub-classes (i.e "White Rage") are a non-issue. If you and I are going to continue, let's do it via our Talk pages (it'd be nice if you registered ;-D) Skitts (talk) 20:26, February 27, 2013 (UTC)
Off-topic - I used to be registered but I cannot remember the name I used, and cannot even find it within my emails. I could do it again, I suppose, after this (because I feel it needs to be public). On-topic: Yes, Sage Mode is balancing natural energy to form senjutsu within the body to activate Sage Mode. Sage Mode is more of a concept or theory, the way I try to describe it. Practically, there can be thousands of Sage Modes, but there's not one global Sage Mode which encompasses the others, sans animalistic difference. That is why it is important to distinguish that it is Toad Sage Mode, Snake Sage Mode, etc. Regardless if the process is the same, the results are different, for whatever reason. Toad Sages come out to be the same, Snake Sages are the same, etc. So until there's more information that supports a hypothesis that each sage mode is identical and irrelevant in relation to animals/physiological changes (which, again, is contradictory since there are varied differences regardless of techniques (though it still can apply in some cases), then it (the page) should reflect as it is now, with the alterations of removing the redundancy found within. --98.101.165.89 (talk) 01:40, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
(My Last response unless someone different pipes up) Again, you're assuming a distinction ithout a stated difference in the series, Heck, it was never said by Kabuto that he had mastered 'Snake Sage Mode', simply that he mastered Sage Mode. Kabuto already had his snake traits prior to Sage Mode, so you can't claim it to account for the whole shebang there. And as I said earlier, failing to maintain control over Natural Energy itself results in a Toad transformation, nothing else, a la Jiraiya. Since no actual distinction between practicioners has even been implied (only different teachers) it shouldn't be implied in the article methinks. Skitts (talk) 03:38, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
It was heavily implied, if not outright stated, that Kabuto achieved perfection in regards to Snake Sage Mode, going so far as to talk about the journey, about how he became more than a snake, that he became a dragon, blah blah blah. He had snake traits, but that's irrelevant to the topic at hand, as, for instance: his horns were more than likely not a product of his experiments. It also helped to prove that he became a dragon, which, if we go by standard and general Asian lore (meaning collective, non-specific), dragons are above snakes, and the horns signify that -- so no speculation or assumption. Otherwise, Kish wouldn't had drawn horns on him, or even mentioned the bit about the dragon, etc. Again, we are not discussing his pre-existing condition, but rather that which changed during his sage mode event. You can say it earlier, but I would highly doubt a Snake Sage in training would turn into a frog if he fails to balance the energies inside his body. That simply wouldn't make sense with the snakes, nor with the plot regarding it. I am not sure at what point there is a discourse in the understanding of any of it. And as I said earlier, the process may be the same, but the result is different, otherwise they wouldn't be a difference to even show in the body/eyes/anywhere else, blah blah blah. It is cumbersome to reiterate the same things, and I mean no offense with that. --Taynio (talk) 05:52, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
If it was stated/heavily implied (it wasn't) post a reference please. But really, I'm doubtful you've read the above convos, because I think I've stated everytime how to account for Kabuto. For one, he never mentioned a different Sage Mode. The mention of the journey? Okay? He just said that he ventured to Ryuchi Cave to learn Senjutsu from the Snake Sage, that said nor implied anything about a different Mode. And again, horns are easily accounted for. For the like 4th time, Sage Mode increases your own innate abilities. Naruto's healing rate was even greater in SM (chapter 415, page 14). Kabuto was snake-y prior to SM, hence entering it caused him to transcend snake to 'dragon' (clearly a simple nod to Asian folklore). And again, Natural Energy is natural energy, it recognizes no divisions based on teacher. Fukasaku plainly said that failing to keep it under some amount of control (and/or not having a large chakra supply already) would result in becoming a Toad and possibly petrifying, which we've seen happen to the Asura Path. And visual differences would seem of little use here. Heck, Jiraiya's appearance was crazy and didn't really resemble Naruto's at all. Kabuto's appearance was chiefly as it was because of his DNA integration, mostly Orochimaru's. We have no clue what a non-DNA hoarder would look like if it is the case that there are different SMs. Skitts (talk) 13:05, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
I just see too many of the same errors to keep replying to over and over; it's no use to keep reiterating the same things just to have the same, and I'm sorry to say this. but invalid things coming back. Perhaps the biggest two issues being that anyone who practices your proposed sage mode turns into a frog, which makes utterly no sense. Secondly being the horn issue and the fact you keep missing the distinction and difference between pre-exisiting conditions with Kabuto and his condition post-sage mode, which you even throw up to his modifications, which make no logical or rational sense; and completely throwing out any and all in-sage-mode identifiers that one would have, such as Jiraiya, Hashirama, or Naruto. You're too caught up, as a lot of others, on his modifications and how much power they offer him, which is being overestimated relative to this topic. Though for a third, you fail to recollect that Jiraiya wasn't perfect, which was the cause for his toad like appearance (and to-note: that which identified him as a sage, DID match Naruto). It's just really not worth it at this point; and I have read every edit on this page, as I do every page I come across, that is how I learn and form my arguments, otherwise it would be an incoherent mess
However, the good points: Yes, natural energy as senjutsu does great things for the body and techniques, this has been long established, but is irrelevant. And if it makes no difference, then why the visual differences, which you say hold no bearing? Why the different teachers? Etc. I could go gon and on with question that hasn't been answered by any.--98.101.165.89 (talk) 14:36, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

What we know for sure is, that that pigmentation around eyes is a sign of a true Sage. The problem is, everything we know points to a single technique so does logic, yet they turn different animals for some reason, this is being justified as different Sage Modes while we can't conclude as such since it makes no sense. That's like saying if Ino were Kurama's Jinchuriky, her forms would resemble a boar--Elveonora (talk) 14:47, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Off-topic: Hi Elv! I actually enjoy talking with you, lol. On-topic: I would concede that was true, that "What we know for sure is...". I could agree on that, despite everything, and that isn't to recant everything I've said but just as "if my life depended on it" lol. Regarding the second point, however, I while a single technique and process, the results are different, as you do point out and I agree, but logic in these circumstances is actually circumventing the former because if it is the technique, but the differences are so wildly varied, yet students of the same order (toad, snake, etc) exhibit similar, almost identical changes which are different from others, then logically they are not the same in relation to the results, but not the process (because all that is happening is they gather natural energy to form senjutsu to enter their sage mode). And that's the key here, that logic must always be applied to the entirety and what holds precedence over the other. I want to emphasize, however, I am not saying they are different techniques, as I think still people believe I am stating. The technique to enter the mode and the process in doing it is the same, but the concept or theory of sage mode versus the practicality (or application, if you prefer) of it is completely different. And that's where we don't know where it differs or why, yet the fact remains it does differ. But to end this off with something I've said before, which I think mirrors exactly the general idea people have, we should definitely remove the redundancy in the article, but not to the degree that each version loses its uniqueness, or to perpetuate irrelevant ideas about sage mode (by trying to combine them) until more information is available. -98.101.165.89 (talk) 15:01, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
@98.101.165.89 You say you see errors in my reasoning, where? It was stated directly by Fukasaku (and demonstrated against Pain) that not controlling Nature's energy = becoming a Toad or worse. Kabuto mentioned nothing about it, hence no distinction is to be assumed. And I've not forgotten that Jiraiya had an imperfect SM. My point was was the fact that Jiraiya's facial appearance as a result of the mode wasn't fixed while in that state (the blood contract changed at least once, I do recall). If you have indeed read every post you wouldn't repeat what I've already gone over. Since Jiraiya failed to perfectly balance his Senjutsu chakra, he gained Toady attributes. Kabuto already had snake attributes, so SM was obviously not the origination of them like it was for Jiraiya. You're making false comparisons. Again, the horn thing is just a nod to the whole dragons being greater snakes in asian lore, as well as the fact of DNA integration. Also, we don't actually know if Hashirama mastered Sage Mode, it's just an assumption we're making (I'm willing to accept it). We don't actually know if they differ, which is the whole point. Kabuto is a rather special case considering his condition prior to the Mode, so your affirmative assumptions without the actual distinctions stated in the series are going too far at this point. So in doing what the wiki usually does, we shouldn't have the article making somewhat arbitrary divisions. Find a place where the divisions is made apparent, post a link for us to verify, otherwise I don't see any actual motive for this. Skitts (talk) 18:06, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
First off, about the "arbitrary divisions", that is the least speculative way to go about it. It is also the way of the wiki not to doctor up something based on a hunch without sufficient information, which is what you seemingly propose. I have been on this wiki, as many have, for many years. I am quite familiar with it. I just wish I remembered my name (or in the case it was deleted or something because my name is about 100% the same anywhere).
I pointed out the errors. And I shouldn't have to post a link as I go to elaborate lengths to explain, and it isn't hard to even look for yourself and re-read the pages where it applies. I mean, what would it help? You remember the pages, correct? The imagery, the words, etc? I can do it, but I fail to see how it would help when the pages and the chapters revolving around the content are small enough to memorize, and it is nice to familiarize ones's self with the pages when discussing it anyways. If you truly will not even consider something with well formed arguments, what are the linking the same pages that you most likely remember vehemently going to do? Especially after all of this discussion about it from everyone, with more than a few very well-formed arguments from them.
It was stated by him (Fukasaku), but there's no inclination to believe all people who train in senjutsu turn into toads, otherwise why Toad Sage teachers? Why have any difference in 3 of the 4 known human sages? I keep reiterating this and yet no rebuttal is brought forth. We could just have all people who dabble in sage mode become Toad Sages, and be taught by Toads. But there is a Snake sage, and given that, plus the fact they will teach humans, there would be a lot of parallels with the frogs. That's a generally understood concept. But also notice I am not saying to put it into the article, because it hasn't been introduced. I am not as foolish and ignorant as you believe I am, or have the lack of motivation to read all of the edits. That isn't the topic of discussion, however. And just because you keep going over it, same as I, doesn't mean either of us are correct or that both of us didn't read anything.
Jiraiya was imperfect, yes, and you did, at least in text form if not memory, forget about that, or you did not clarify, at least. You suggested Jiraiya was perfect and that the reason for the difference compared to Naruto was that sage mode is peculiar, essentially. To quote, "Heck, Jiraiya's appearance was crazy and didn't really resemble Naruto's at all. ", and given the context combined with the rest of the sentences surrounding it, that's how it came out. It did resemble it, however, in his eyes. Jiraiya's frog-like features were a result of him being unable to perfectly balance natural energy and his own, not a result of just having sage mode activated. But as for Kabuto, yes, he already had them due to modifications a la Orochimaru. Yes, that's been quite established, by others and myself. The difference, and the error, however, is the overwhelming power of emphasis you give it relative to sage mode; the two are not related. Kabuto's horns are a nod to Asian folklore -- I'm the one, IIRC, that first brought it up, unless I missed it in someone's earlier edit. But that doesn't mean it is just a nod. We would infer that without having Kabuto being so excited about being a dragon and not a snake; or that Orochimaru (the snake) also learned from the Snake Sages, which suggests that, similar to anyone learning from the Toads, or wherever Hashirama learned his, they will exhibit signs relative to where they learned it. He actually isn't a special case when it comes to the mode, and that is highly speculative you believe so. On the contrary, it isn't, and shouldn't be special. Yes, he is modified, but with what rational do you assert that makes a difference at all? I don't understand why, despite me profusely emphasizing his pre-existing condition pre-sage mode, that you think I believe it is a result of sage mode. I NEVER suggested that. So no, there are no false comparisons. I am unbelievably aware, and have continuously stated, my understanding, at great, pain-staking lengths, of the differences of Kabuto and imperfect Toad Sage Jiraiya. I am astounded. Regardless of how you feel, there are things which cannot be denied when it comes to the different products resulting from the same technique. What we don't know is how it happens. There are divisions, but you are seemingly blending them, or outright ignoring them. The fact there are so many differences resulting from the same technique (sans basic improvements from senjutsu (improved strength, etc; improved ninjutsu, etc)), even if the differences are only visual (which is just as huge as anything else), suggests a division. Even if you don't believe in a difference between Kabuto and the Toads Sages, then explain Hashirama, who has no pre-existing condition and yet changes beyond what we have seen from the Toad Sages and Snake Sages.
And you are right, we don't know if Hashirama is perfect. I never suggested he was. And the only reason people believe Kabuto is perfect is because of his speech to Itachi and Sasuke about how he became a dragon instead of a snake like Orochimaru, which, given the folklore and just general comparison (you do not even have to know about the folklore) that Kabuto was making, suggests the top/best. But he could be imperfect for all we know, since it isn't directly stated. He could've, hypothetically, even been in sage mode the entire time given his modifications based on Juugo. But I am not suggesting that, if that's what you believe.
I truly am done at this point. When it has gotten to a point I feel the need to write so much, I need, personally, to stop; it's gotten out of hand with all of the assumptions you believe I am making, the assumptions I do not read, etc. I have no patience for it anymore. If you still, at this point, would like me to post links to the chapters for you, even though they honestly will do nothing to aid, that is something I would do on your talk page. --98.101.165.89 (talk) 20:15, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

I just believe we need to remove speculation and use neutral labels since we can't confirm nor deny some things. But I'm pointing out, that Hashirama supports my hypothesis. I believe natural energy changes everyone in a different way and the resulting form is what they resemble the most/are associated with, there's more that hints on this (look at curse mark users, they don't turn into snakes, do they? Also Jugo Clan's members were also shown each with a different form) Even perfect sages get animal eyes of a species, yet, Hashirama's eyes didn't change at all, he just gained the pigmentation (true sign) and a marking on forehead resembling the third eye, thus it has nothing to do with animal trainers at all, rather does with users themselves. The same thing can't have different effects on individuals, that's nonsensical, rather each individual reacts to it differently. Instead of "x type sage mode" it should be "x user in sage mode" there's only 2 official forms, perfect and imperfect. And as stated, many things repeat in the article, there's the same advantages&disadvantages for everyone by default, the differences stem from their unique workarounds/countering only, like the shoulder-merging-no-jutsu and insert jugo dna so you don't have to sit all day thingy--Elveonora (talk) 21:09, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Article Restructure or not?

Since the previous section didn't amount to... anything (my bad). So, is the article going to be restructred or not? No one seemed to come to any overall agreement in regards to the technique. Skitts (talk) 00:32, March 1, 2013 (UTC)

The way I see it, the article should be re-structured like this:
  • Sage Mode
  • stuff in common with all sage modes (main, or at least, original complaint was redundancy)
  • increase in power of nin,tai,genjutsu
  • cloak of natural energy
  • ability to sense chakra
  • increase in reflexes/perceptual abilities (yes its the same thing, naruto could dodge the raikage's impossibly fast spear, kabuto could dodge sasuke's impossibly fast arrow)
  • note differences based on animal/where taught
  • different characters uses
This way, redundancy is reduced while keeping things seemingly unique separate. Hope this makes people happy. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 01:23, March 1, 2013 (UTC)

Bump. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 00:22, March 2, 2013 (UTC)

Again. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 20:29, March 2, 2013 (UTC)

I support the proposed restructuring proposed to cut down the redundancy. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:57, March 2, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with the cutting of redundancy. I remain against the removal of the Toad, Snake, whatever the hell Hashirama is.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 00:27, March 3, 2013 (UTC)

Cool, who is bored?--Elveonora (talk) 05:04, March 3, 2013 (UTC)

I'm somewhat bored (and ill) now, and no work today, so I suppose I could do it. :-) Seelentau thinks we should as well (my talk page). He could only think that we should split the article based on user. @TU3 Would Seelentau's or MangekyoSasuke's suggestions satisfy? :) Or how about these?:

  • The opening section of the article already does a decent job going over the general abilities of Sage Mode, so it would a good place to make use of in reducing some redundancy.
  • First section, Mt. Myoboku (or something better any of you think of), which would go over the practicioners that learned from Mt. Myoboku. First sub-section would be over Jiraiya's imperfect usage (Imperfect Sage Mode), while the second over the balanced usage of the technique (True Sage Mode). Or perhaps we should divide it into Balanced and Unbalanced, referring to the Natural energy?
  • Create 2 more sections, Kabuto Yakushi and Hashirama Senju, to list any current or future quirks (if any) of their respective usages.
  • Note in the trivia that we don't currently know if these are distinct Sage Modes or user specific oddities.

I think that may satisfy those of us who disagree as to the nature of the technique. Thoughts? Skitts (talk) 15:17, March 3, 2013 (UTC)

Sounds okay, an action should be made first and only then disagreements and displeasure might come of it--Elveonora (talk) 15:31, March 3, 2013 (UTC)

Please do not differ between imperfect and true sage mode, since that would sound like there is more than one sage mode. Jiraiya is in sage mode, Naruto is in sage mode. The only difference is that Naruto can use it better than his sensei. He simply has more control over the natural energy balance in his body, that doesn't make his sage mode anything different. Write something like "Since Jiraiya has no complete control over the natural energy in his body, he looks more like a toad than Naruto does, who can maintain a perfect balance of the three energies.". As I said on your talk page, Skitts, there is only one Sage Mode, there's no perfect or snake or dragon sage mode. Seelentau 愛 15:45, March 3, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, still, sounds less fanmade than "animal mode" xD "Perfect balance" and "Partial balance" sounds like terms that should be used imo EDIT: the article should cover only the technique itself, those bodily changes and shit aren't a part of the technique, more like a consequence of failing to balance natural energy perfectly and should be covered elsewhere--Elveonora (talk) 15:58, March 3, 2013 (UTC)

It's simple: The more balanced the three energies are, the less froggy are the looks of the user. This goes from turning into a frog to somewhat looking like a toad to having eye shades. And you are wrong, the technique describes the effects of natural energy in a human body. The looks are a part of those effects, thus they should be covered in this article. Seelentau 愛 16:01, March 3, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, in the user section but not as a part of "powers" description. But I believe these changes belong more here Natural Energy since natural energy is responsible for physical changes outside of sage mode--Elveonora (talk) 16:03, March 3, 2013 (UTC)

Of course not in the powers-part of the article. But there are no physical changes outside of the sage mode. Going into Sage Mode means absorbing natural energy, which may result in physical changes if the natural energy isn't in balance with the other two. The physical changes are a direct result of absorbing natural energy. Seelentau 愛 16:07, March 3, 2013 (UTC)

(Edit conflict time SIX) @Seelentau I didn't say they were different techniques, which is why I also recommended dividing the Myoboku section into Balanced/Unbalanced, to indicate skill difference. :-P Oh and since the effects of Sage Mode are directly relevant to the technique (axiomatically), they belong here. Skitts (talk) 16:10, March 3, 2013 (UTC)

@Tau, I'm talking about Jugo and his clan, their enzyme isn't responsible for their bodily changes alone, it's the catalyst that causes their bodies to respond to natural energy differently than "ordinary" people do, without it, they would turn into a statue. The "body altering" thing is an attribute of natural energy in general--Elveonora (talk) 17:21, March 3, 2013 (UTC)

I still have ever intention of noting the the Toad, Snake, whatever the hell Hashirama is.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 17:53, March 3, 2013 (UTC)

I think this one is gonna go down as the longest discussion of this wiki. That aside i'm also in favor of the re-structuring of the article to remove redundancies, at least those that are ability related. Either way since most appear to be in favor, why not just start? Darksusanoo (talk) 22:09, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

Has anyone come up with a draft yet? MangekyoSasuke (talk) 22:12, March 10, 2013 (UTC)

If i may place a suggestion for said draft:

1.Usage 2.Appearance(general stuff, like we know that they adopt traits from say an animal or natural force and that the peak of control is indicated by only the eyes changing while the rest is caused by lesser control levels. Kabuto's modifications make him something of an unknown to this, but i don't think it'll be a problem if it is stated so.) 3.Advantages(include potential exploitation of one's transformed states anatomy, I.e. Kabuto using a brill and Jaraiya using frog-like legs to aid a jump.) 4.Disadvantages

    4.2 Overcoming The Disadvantages

5.Techniques

that's what i had in mind. the general idea of dividing the article up into different types just seems weird when generally we know they all do the same thing with some minor differences specific to the individual. we do know that they can learn it in three places and that the appearance of their transformed state might change as a result of that, evidenced by all of the Mount Myoboku statues being frog-types, so it could be stated somewhere too. --77.101.215.79 (talk) 20:35, May 27, 2013 (UTC)

Seemingly, the majority believes it's good as is for now, it will get remade in the future anyway, so I'm calm on that one for now ;) They just need moar evidence/new info--Elveonora (talk) 21:01, May 27, 2013 (UTC)

improved chakra control?

Just wondering, wouldn't an explanation of Naruto being capable of creating Rasengan without a clone and in one hand or even two in each at the same time, be a proof of Sage Mode improving chakra control as well?--Elveonora (talk) 14:57, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

bump--Elveonora (talk) 17:10, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

When has he? I only recall something like that happening in Kurama Mode. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:35, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

Sage Art: Big Ball Rasengan and Sage Art: Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan and Sage Technique: Spiralling Serial Spheres--Elveonora (talk) 23:46, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

Sage Art: Big Ball Rasengan: He didn't make that with one hand, he had clones with him when he was running forward, then they got big.
Sage Art: Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan: Didn't see a clone for that one.
Sage Technique: Spiralling Serial Spheres: Can assume he didn't have a clone, but considering we didn't know he was making the Rasengans until the Animal Path was inside the toad's mouth, we don't know.
It is also worth noting that someone stated somewhere at some point that Naruto could make Rasengans without clones in Part II, but by that point just preferred to use clones. It was also stated at some point by someone somewhere that Kishimoto just didnt care enough to draw another clones in every picture.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 00:08, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Nice explanation, then perhaps we should remove/change some instances that mention he can't due to poor chakra control and stuff. Actually his chakra control has become very good by now, so it even makes sense that it's simply his style, not limitation, if we have references, that's it. I think he did in anime or movies, but that's not much canon, but perhaps could serve enough--Elveonora (talk) 00:15, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

The one issue I have with Ultra-Big Ball one is that it was done in the mindscape, not actual real world. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:07, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Very true, just thought something was fishy about this, that's why I brought it up, but since there's not much evidence for that...--Elveonora (talk) 15:34, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Naruto used a clone for Sage Art: Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan. Chapter 497, page 3, 2nd panel. General Awesomo 09:45, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

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