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Sage Mode and Sage Transformation

Heya, I recently read db4's article on Jugo again and I'm thinking we should kinda do something about the two articles, Sage Mode and Sage Transformation. This is based on two things: In Jugo's db4 article, it says "Taking in the natural energy that's overflowing the earth, he turns into a brutal 'sage'" and in the Konoha Hundred Leafs box in db4, it says "In Jugo's village, the state after invoking the power of Senjutsu is referred to as 'Sage Transformation'". I'm not sure if simply merging them would be the best thing to do, though. What y'all think? Also, it was made pretty clear that Orochimaru was also able to use senjutsu chakra, just not turn into a perfect sage, as Kabuto said. This should definitely be reflected somewhere here. • Seelentau 愛 10:48, June 4, 2017 (UTC)

Ok. But I have a doubt, I think that the "Sage Trasformation" is the name of Jūgo's Clan's Kekkei Genkai u.u .--Sharingan91 (talk) 15:37, June 4, 2017 (UTC)
That's not true, as you can see from the second quote. • Seelentau 愛 15:39, June 4, 2017 (UTC)
Ok, I think I understand. So Senjutsu used through KG is called Sage transformation, while Senjutsu used through training is called Sage mode. It's best to combine everything in one single article.--Sharingan91 (talk) 16:04, June 4, 2017 (UTC)
Sage Mode and Sage Transformation is the same thing, just two different names. • Seelentau 愛 16:13, June 4, 2017 (UTC)
Well, Jugo's ability obviously works another way around than a usual SM, so it still wouldn't be correct to call both the same thing, and should the merger happen, ST deserves at least a separate section. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 16:22, June 4, 2017 (UTC)
But the databook did call them the same thing. Of course they would still get their separate sections. • Seelentau 愛 16:27, June 4, 2017 (UTC)
I'm personally against it. I'm finding it too convenient that the two jutsu being the same came up just now and not, let's say, two years ago or so, but maybe I'm just imagining things. As for why I'm against it: Sage Transformation is a Kekkei Genkai (or, at the very least, a technique that is only available to those with Jūgo's DNA, meaning that it's a technique available only through a certain Kekkei Genkai), and Sage Mode is not.--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 18:07, June 4, 2017 (UTC)
Why convenient, though? Did something happen the last few days that relates to Sage Mode/Sage Transformation?
Sage Transformation being accessible through a kekkei genkai and Sage Mode not does not mean that it's not the same. Just two different means to reach the same outcome. • Seelentau 愛 18:21, June 4, 2017 (UTC)

I thought this was old knowledge, I have said the very same thing long time ago, yet everyone disagreed, but suddenly it's the truth 'shakes head' Sage Transformation IS Sage Mode, but it's also more. In other words, when one with Jugo's KKG uses Sage Mode, a physical transformation also occurs because of special body fluids, which trigger a physical transformation, hence the different name for the same feat. The physical transformation doesn't really make it a different jutsu, since it's only a side effect. Shortly said, all Sage Transformation users are by default Sage Mode users.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 10:36, June 5, 2017 (UTC)

I just want to point out, that taking Sage Mode, then adding body fluids into to make them mutate, does turn it into something else. It stops being "Just gathering Natural Energy" into "Gathering natural energy + bodily fluids that mutate". In regards to the articles themselves, aside from specifying that Sage Transformation is basically "Sage Mode on Bodily Fluids", there isn't much else that needs to be done. Because other wise, we end up getting into that stupid argument about what classifies a Sage again.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 11:20, June 5, 2017 (UTC)
There's no stupid argument about that, I think? A sage is someone who can use Senjutsu, a perfect sage is someone who can use Sage Mode/Sage Transformation. But as I said above, I'm not even sure if merging the articles is the best way to handle all this... • Seelentau 愛 11:45, June 5, 2017 (UTC)
Then like I said, the simplest solution would just be to specify in the Sage Mode article, that when members of a certain clan uses Sage Mode their bodies produce special fluids which mutate their bodies, thus 'Sage Transformation', while in the Sage Transformation article note that this is the result of the certain clan using Sage Mode, which mutates because of their fluids.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 12:24, June 5, 2017 (UTC)
Semi-offtopic question, why doesn't Orochimaru classify as a Sage then, since Jugo does according to DB4 despite his 'sagehood' being made much easier thanks to his powers?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 18:49, June 5, 2017 (UTC)
If we go by Kabuto's distinction, Orochimaru is indeed a sage. • Seelentau 愛 19:10, June 5, 2017 (UTC)
The only thing potentially going against Sage Transformation and Sage Mode being the same thing is that there's still the possibility that "Senninka" is a blanket term for all senjutsu-empowered states whereas Sage Mode is just one specific kind of state taught by the toads and snakes. And those DB4 characteristics really shouldn't be used as the basis for anything, they're so wrong that Kabuto is literally missing 3 characteristics in his profile. On a related note, is this also the time to bring back up the fact that no non-human sages are ever said to be using "Sage Mode" in the manga and DB3 only listed Jiraiya as a user?--BeyondRed (talk) 02:53, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

Okay, so I made some changes to the Sage Mode and Sage Transformation articles. Is there anything you'd like to see changed? • Seelentau 愛 11:01, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

So.. Kabuto and Mitsuki use Sage Transformation, or both ST and Sage Mode? Because they're listed as users of both atm, and Jūgo is not.--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 12:14, June 6, 2017 (UTC)
It is my understanding, that at least Kabuto and Mitsuki's transformation was actually referred to as "Sage Mode", with at least Kabuto's situation outright stating that he used Sage Transformation, to gather the Natural Energy to activate legit Sage Mode. Jugo meanwhile, is basically just hulking out and isn't doing the whole, balance thing.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 12:17, June 6, 2017 (UTC)
^Yeah, I thought so myself, which is why I asked, considering Seele's edit lists them as ST transformations. (Also, off topic, but should Orochi be listed as Sage? He has Jūgo's KKG through Kabuto now.)--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 12:23, June 6, 2017 (UTC)
All ST users are SM users, but not all SM users are ST users. All senjutsu users are sages, all SM/ST users are perfect sages. • Seelentau 愛 12:48, June 6, 2017 (UTC)
If all senjutsu users are Sages, then how would Kimimaro, the Sound Four and Sasuke be classified, as technically they used senjutsu through their cursed seals?--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 12:57, June 6, 2017 (UTC)
Also, I severely doubt that Jugo can be called a perfect sage even while possessing ST, since the main reason of his surges of rage is the point that he's constantly absorbing NE and as such can't balance it properly. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 13:02, June 6, 2017 (UTC)
Were they specifically said to use Senjutsu, though? I know that Sasuke used natural energy for Susanoo... okay maybe it's one step too much to say that all senjutsu users are sages. Maybe Kabuto meant that those who can use Sage Mode are perfect sages, while the others are just senjutsu users. • Seelentau 愛 13:10, June 6, 2017 (UTC)
@Seele, yeah, it was said that Orochimaru's cursed seals worked like Jūgo's KKG, in that they absorb natural energy (making them senjutsu).--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 13:13, June 6, 2017 (UTC)
Yes, but were they specifically said to use senjutsu? Orochimaru was, for example. • Seelentau 愛 13:15, June 6, 2017 (UTC)
"While active, the cursed seal feeds off their chakra and replaces it with Orochimaru's own senjutsu chakra".--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 13:21, June 6, 2017 (UTC)
Both sources for that sentence are wrong, though. I have no clue why that information is in the article at all. • Seelentau 愛 13:28, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

I think we should all go back and double check what Fukasaku said classifies a Sage.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 13:12, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

I don't think there's a classification. Besides, Jugo was called sage in the databook, so even if he's not a perfect sage, he is a sage. • Seelentau 愛 13:15, June 6, 2017 (UTC)
Um Jiraiya is considered a Sage and he has not even mastered Sage Mode so I don't why everyone is making a big deal out of Jugo being called a Sage. --Rai 水 (talk) 13:30, June 6, 2017 (UTC)
What did I say about the argument over what is a sage? :P
But seriously, which sentences are wrong?--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 13:31, June 6, 2017 (UTC)
Of course Jiraiya has mastered Sage Mode. Otherwise, he wouldn't be able to use it.
The sentence BerserkerPhantom quoted is wrong, from what I know. • Seelentau 愛 15:31, June 6, 2017 (UTC)
Not to the point of having Perfect Sage Mode. --Rai 水 (talk) 15:35, June 6, 2017 (UTC)
But there is no more definition of a perfect Sage Mode than what Kabuto said. • Seelentau 愛 15:37, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

Stillness

In order to gather enough natural energy to initiate the transformation into Sage Mode, the user must remain perfectly still, leaving them vulnerable. Users have at times been shown entering Sage Mode without this preparation.[8][9]

I think example(s) of bolded is needed.

Because the user needs to move during combat, the senjutsu chakra cannot be replenished, which means the user can't stay within this state for extended periods of time. Naruto states it is possible to lengthen the time limit

This is true and at the same time false. It is possible to cheat. A person needs to be perfectly still but that does not apply to his footing. In his reference frame he needs to be still but not to the observer's. This is seen when hashirama uses his dragon jutsu and when naruto is in tail beast mode. So in a sense sage mode, no matter how masterful one is, is an incomplete technique as long as one doesn't have jutsu that allows mobility (like susanoo).Rizgubi (talk) 20:23, June 23, 2017 (UTC)

No need for examples, references are there for a reason, and the very next session in the article is about countering the disadvantages. Hashirama in the dragon and Tailed Beast Mode Naruto are still still. It's a technicality more than a cheat. The restriction is the user moving, not the user being moved. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:18, June 23, 2017 (UTC)