Talk:Sage Mode

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He basically just stole it from Hashirama, but he also stated that he managed to master it very quickly, so he should be listed as a user, right? Norleon (talk) 12:49, December 4, 2013 (UTC)

I think it is the same with his Wood Release. It doesn't matter if the ability was stolen or acquired through body modifications, if he is using it, then he is an user. Shadow Abyss (talk) 13:27, December 4, 2013 (UTC)
I think the situation is a bit subtler than that. With Wood Release, all Madara needed was a physical piece of Hashirama to be grafted in his body. For Sage Mode, even though he already had the physical implant, he had to go to Hashirama. He drained Hashirama of his senjutsu chakra (which I find very odd, since I don't recall Hashirama being in Sage Mode the last few chapters). He didn't make the senjutsu chakra himself (as far as we know), we don't even know if Madara knows the mechanics of how senjutsu chakra comes to be (though I believe he does). We don't consider people Naruto gave tailed beast chakra to be jinchūriki, so I don't think Madara should be considered a Sage Mode user, even if he's using the senjutsu chakra. The whole situation is murky. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:45, December 4, 2013 (UTC)
Hello sempai. In regards to Madara i would have to disagree a an earlier chapter, he said he was going to take Hashi' senjutsu powers in chapter 647. Now in this one Madara says how the power of the senjutsu chakra was dissapointing and he believed it would be harder to control it. Not only that, but we say the perfect Sage pattern appear in Madara's chest face. Also we know that if unless senjutsu chakra can be balanced, the user will display animal traits and eventually turn into an animal statue. Being a sage is being one who can balance and control senjutsu chakra within himself. From where i see it, Madara simply took a shortcut to attain the same result. Darksusanoo (talk) 00:51, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
But there's something that has never been clarified: does senjutsu chakra require active balancing once it is made? I mean, do you have to keep balancing the spiritual, physical and natural energies once the senjutsu chakra is made, or once made in the perfect ratio, the chakra is stable? I also find it very odd that it was only the Hashirama face that got the markings, and that Madara himself didn't get them. And I repeat, Madara himself has not made the chakra as far as we know. We don't list every shinobi Naruto gave Kurama's chakra a host, because the source of the chakra is not in them. Madara may have a Hashirama graft, but the graft was not the source of the chakra he is using. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:40, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
But as Madara said, he did had to control the senjutsu chakra, even if that took less effort than what he originally assumed. Also i believe once the initial control is gained the chakra remains stable, but as we all know senjutsu chakra doesn't renew itself so for sages, there is no chakra source, they have to take the energy from outside sources and balance it with their own. If Madara hadn't gain control over the chakra, he'd turn into an animal like the Preta Path when he absorbed Naruto's chakra. And it was defined in the article that control (even if imperfect) over senjutsu chakra is what makes a sage. Also the Kurama comparison doesn't really fit here sempai, since we are talking about two very different types of chakra. Graft or no graft, that face is a part of Madara's body, thus its part of Madara himself and as such anything derived from it is Madara's own at this point.
  • Another little side detail to add to this is Madara's insane sensing prowess after his revival. Given how Uchiha senses are restricted to visual/dojutsu ones and how once that is lost, their battle prowess takes a nosedive. (Izuna's death and Madara's final defeat against Hashi comes to mind.) I did Madara managed to dance around a Sharingan/sword master's attack, sense the peculiar traits of Sasuke's Sharingan, all while being effectively blind? The only type of sensing prowess this strong is that of a sage...remember Kabuto vs Sasuke and Itachi? Kabuto was also blind to prevent genjutsu and still outfought the brothers due his sensing in Sage Mode. Darksusanoo (talk) 01:57, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

The Preta Path case isn't the best example, since the zoom in Naruto when he opened his eyes sort of implied he himself introduced an imbalance in the senjutsu chakra while it was being absorbed. And it's not the senjutsu chakra per se that transforms one into an animal and then a statue, it's the overwhelming natural energy that does if you can't control its flow. Regarding sensing, Madara has been noted a sensor for a while now, and not due to his eyes. I goes back to at least when he first detected Hashirama's and made that psycho face. He's been listed as a sensor at least since then. Kabuto wasn't exactly blind. His brille made a filter to his eyes, you could still see the snake pupils behind them when they were lowered. Base Madara already had sensing. If anything, I'd say that the sage chakra is boosting an ability he already had. This is similar to Orochimaru's case. We know Oro's cursed seals contain his senjutsu chakra, but those who use his cursed seals are not Sage Mode users. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:13, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

If Naruto had introduced the imbalance, the perfect sage pattern wouldn't have appeared on his would look like Jiraiya's pattern if anything and in no way was it implied that Naruto gave the Preta Path imbalanced chakra...if anything he overloaded him with senjutsu chakra to turn him into a statue, but the statue turned into stone because it couldn't handle the senjutsu chakra. Yes Madara is a sensor, but to the degree of compensating the loss of his dojutsu, a major pillar in the Uchiha's fighting style? Kabuto did blind himself...he said at least once or twice to Itachi that he had cut off his eyesight to prevent eye based genjutsu. Why are you bringing Oro's cursed seals, when we know those were derived from Jugo's KKG...which is a different thing...however Madara did display the pattern signs of perfect sage control and remarked that he had to exert control over the chakra...all traits of a sage. Darksusanoo (talk) 02:23, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
The focus on Naruto only happened when the shading around his eyes was all but over. Introducing an imbalance in the chakra would have snowballed in the Preta Path, leading to the petrification. Regarding Madara's sensing, what I'm saying is that even if he is using sage chakra, he's not using Sage Mode itself. I brought Orochimaru up because despite the cursed seals coming from Jūgo, the explicitly say that the cursed seals contain Orochimaru's senjutsu chakra. It's in the pages that show Orochimaru taking back his chakra from Kabuto. I still don't see pigmentation around Madara's own eyes, which according to Fukasaku are the sign of a true sage. Madara essentially took sage chakra someone else had a put in a graft battery. I'm saying that Madara is a similar situation to Orochimaru in which one has senjutsu chakra, but not Sage Mode itself. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:13, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
People keep saying that Hashi's face is a graft. Has no one ever assumed it was a mutation caused by the introduction of the First's Dna into one's body? Madara himself said that he infused the DNA into his wounds. So that's not a graft, its a mutation side effect, he didn't build and plaster a second Hashi face into his body, neither did Danzo. Its like having an extra limb...just because it's extra, what's done with it is still yours, your doing, possession and responsability. Also wasn't a similar discussion brought up, when someone wanted to separate senjutsu from sage mode? Wasn't it concluded that excluding Jugo/Oro's seals due to them being KKG-bound, that regular individuals were required to enter Sage Mode in order to use senjutsu. So unless you wanna unleash that box of scorpions again. The sage pattern appeared in Madara's face, in this case his second face...and even if he did what you say he did sempai, he's still a sage at this point, since he still had to balance and control the senjutsu chakra he took in without the aid of a maybe an atypical case, but the traits exibited by Madara are more aligned with Sage Mode than Sage/Cursed Seal Transformation.Darksusanoo (talk) 03:29, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
Madara is not using Sage Mode. He stole Hashirama's chakra and is using his "Hashirama face", if you will, to use Hashirama's Sage Mode. Therefore he is not a user. All this about him "controlling the chakra" is irrelevant and seems to be nothing more than a desperate attempt to list him as a user. It is A) Not his Senjutsu chakra, B) Not his Sage Mode, and C) Not his own body controlling it, but the "Hashirama face" doing it for him. He should not be listed whatsoever until he is shown using it on his own. Its absolutely no different that Kakashi and the other shinobi using Naruto's Kyūbi chakra after he gave it to them. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 04:08, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
So by that standart, please remove him (and everyone who's not Hashirama) as a Wood Release user, since he can only use it because of the "Hashirama face". Sure just toss aside one of the main pillars of sage mode/senjutsu, which is actually managing to not get turned into an animal statue, that makes perfect sense. "Not his own body controlling it"? Last time i checked...Hashi's face isn't detachable from Madara's body like a Lego piece, nor is it a tool of any kind, but a mutation caused by the integration of the First's DNA...Madara may be using Hashi's face, but that face is a part of Madara's body now, like anyother of his limbs so you saying he's using the face is like saying he's using the left arm instead of the right to swing a blade...its all part of his body...not originally sure, but it is now...that's like saying that a person who has an extra limb isn't responsible/can't control what that extra limb does...Darksusanoo (talk) 04:29, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
The precedent Kabuto created with his chest snake means that if you are in control of some freaky growth that can use some other technique, you are using that technique. So yeah, lets not try and think to stupid on this one. Madara is using Hashirama's Sage Mode, he gets listed as using Sage Mode.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 04:34, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
No disrespect intended when I say this, but that has to be the most asinine reasoning for listing someone as a user I've ever heard. With Wood Release and Kabuto's snake... thing, the genetics of the person using the technique were apart of their new user; Wood Release in Danzo, Obito, Yamato, etc., and the Sound Four's in Kabuto. We saw him injecting the blood. Madara cannot use Sage Mode. He didn't absorb natural energy from the air and mix it with his chakra to make Senjutsu chakra, he stole the Senjutsu chakra Hashirama already had and used it through HASHIRMA's body parts that had been grafted into him. How the hell is that, in the sweet name of the baby Jesus, usage of Sage Mode? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 06:58, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

@Dark, to clarify, the Hash-chest-face is Kabuto's work as confirmed in the latest chapter, it didn't happen to Madara as he had gotten Hash's cells at all, just white skin. For the Sage Mode, yes, he is a user I believe, but if he should be listed as a Sage is questionable. As stated, it's the Hash-chest-face that has gotten the facial markings, not his own. And THIS IS EXACTLY why I brought up a while ago a forum about us listing users having KKG powers or otherwise as either them being temporary (transplant/experiment) or permanent (blood trait). So what does that tell us, true, he is no less user of Sage Mode now than Danzo was of Wood Release. Even tho he can do it only thanks to a foreign matter attached to his body, he had to control it and managed to and as such is a user. But a Sage has to be able to sense, absorb and balance natural energy himself, which he hasn't done. So short story: user of sage mode- yes but not a sage, reverse case of Orochimaru.--Elveonora (talk) 13:17, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

Mhm. The Spoken word. Glad to see you editing again Elveo. Sorry to just jump into this discussion. But i agree.--Senju SymbolKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 14:37, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
Asinine it may be Ten Tailed Fox, but it is what it is. He has a freaky construct of Hashirama's face on his chest, he absorbed Hashirama's senjutsu chakra and is able to manipulate it under his own will. He himself may not be in Sage Mode, but he is using it. Unlike Danzo, Madara is in control of his stolen ability, Danzo was not. WHen he got messed up the Wood Release ran wild.
That being said, he is not a sage because he didn't actively learn the art of senjutsu he just sucked it out of one person.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 16:18, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
I know he's not a Sage, but he doesn't even seem to be in the least bit familiar with Senjutsu chakra. "So this is the coveted Senjutsu chakra." Doesn't say to me he even knows what he's doing. I mean, its like Omnibender said. Naruto gave everyone in the Alliance Kurama's chakra. Shoot, the Rookies even used a Tailed Beast Mode cloak. We're not listing them as psuedo-jinchūriki because they controlled that chakra, did we? No. Its no different here. I just don't like the faulty, paper-thin layer of logic that some seem to be using as an excuse to list him as a Sage Mode user. He's not. But, if that ends up being the consensus, I won't fight it. Just seems like a really big mistake to me. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 16:30, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
Madara said that he thought he would have a hard time manipulating it. Might just be better to wait for Raws though.~UltimateSupreme 17:04, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

TU3, what does Kabuto's navel snake have anything to do with this? The snake was never implicated in his use of Sage Mode, only in the skills he acquired from Orochimaru. He already had the snake while not in Sage Mode. The thing that sets Madara apart in this case, is that this isn't simply a case of grabbing a physical part of a third party and having access to its abilities. Madara already had the Hashigraft, and yet he had to go grab the senjutsu chakra from Hashirama himself. If he's at least aware of how senjutsu works, he'd certainly Gary Stu his way into mastering the whole process in half a heartbeat, like the overachiever he is, making the whole theft of the chakra pointless. Another example of non-use of technique, is Rasengan. Rookie 9 each took a Rasengan and slammed Obito with it, but we don't list them as users. Madara is the same thing. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:51, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

Should it not be noted that Hashirama's SM increases regeneration? As Madara's wound from Sasuke's 'Kusanagi' explicitly healed up within a very short time after adopting the pseudo-SM. Maybe this is what Madara was referring to about Hashirama's Byakugou-esque healing? Pesa123456789 (talk) 19:25, December 8, 2013 (UTC)

Hash cells in themselves heal and shi* as shown with Obito, nothing with senjutsu. But I thought what healed Madara was QB chakra anyway--Elveonora (talk) 22:03, December 8, 2013 (UTC)

By the Light this is still going?
The snake has nothing to do with Sage Mode. I was pointing out that Kabuto pulled out Orochimaru and the Sound Five from the naval snake and we count him as having used their techniques and their kekkei genkai. Ergo, Madara pulling out Sage Mode and putting it into his Hashichestface and as he said he can manipulate it to mean means, unless we just decide to say "eff it" and decided just because all hate Madara that he isn't using Sage Mode, he is using Sage Mode.
And I thought i brought up the Rookie 9 thing. The Rookie Nine actually didn't do a damn thing. They jumped into Naruto's chakra, Naruto formed the Rasengans and all his friends did was push. They ain't manipulate nothing. It was the same thing when Naruto pushed Killer B's tailed beast ball through 30 barriers.
Now that being said, I'm already bored witht his discussion. If we want to say Madara is not using Sage Mode then I'm willing to just call everyone out for bullcrap but let it be removed without a fuss anyway so long as we also take into account Kabuto's actions with his weird body modifications.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 02:37, December 9, 2013 (UTC)

But the difference with Kabuto is that all those techniques, implants or not, originated within him, in his body. Madara already had the Hashirama face in him, and even them he had to go take the senjutsu chakra. That is what I think constitutes the Orochimaru-like situation of using senjutsu chakra, without actually using Sage Mode. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:12, December 10, 2013 (UTC)

Questionable Content

For some time now, the article has been broken up into sections more or less stating that there are different Sage Modes. In the past I've questioned the source of this, and I never felt I was given adequate justification, and certainly not in the vein that is usually demanded on the wiki. There seems to be zero mention in the manga by ANY practitioner of Sage Mode that what Hashirama and Kabuto do is any different, in terms of the basal technique, to what Naruto does. Now, one thing offered up is that Kabuto and Hashirama have different designs around their eyes, and that Fukasaku noted that Naruto had the eye designs of a true sage. Well, that's not accurate actually. All Fuksasaku said (Ch. 418 pg. 5) is that the dark pigmentation around the eyes are the mark of a true Sage, he never made mention or note of it being specifically a mark of a Toad Sage, or anything else, just that of one who has perfected Sage Mode. And given both Hashi and Kabuto fit that description, and made no mention of using some specific brand of SM, I'd put in my suggestion that the article be fixed to remove a lot of unfounded assumptions one must make for it to make sense. Thoughts? Skitts (talk) 07:29, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

At the very least, it could be separated by user, so we could say "Naruto Uzumaki's Sage Mode" or "Kabuto Yakushi's Sage Mode" instead of made-up names like Toad Sage Mode and Snake Sage Mode which imply different types. The current implication that each version has different strengths and weaknesses also seems unnecessary. Stating things like Kabuto's and Hashirama's not having enhanced durability because Sasuke's sword could cut them seems like a big assumption; Pain's rods could pierce Naruto after all.--BeyondRed (talk) 07:39, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
I really don't understand how there can be different sage modes. The sage mode is simply the state of ones body when it absorbed natural energy. There are no different kinds of natural energy one can absorb and we don't have the slightest explanation for why the absorbtion of the same energy results in different looks. So yes, I agree with Beyond, we should differ by user, not by looks. Seelentau 愛 09:34, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Agreed Seelentau. It is just balancing natural energy with one's own inner energies after all. I think one thing we might do is simply mention that all known perfect sages (among humans anyway) had different designs around and on the eyes, but they all possessed the distinctive mark of a perfect Sage that Fukasaku mentioned. It avoids all extra assumptions but mentions how each user differs aethestically. But should we split it by user? I can't really think of anything in particular that Kabuto or Hashirama did with the form itself that was noticeably different from Naruto. They each just seemed to power-up their techniques. Suggestions? Skitts (talk) 13:44, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Hey Skitts long time no see, I was wondering where you have gone to ^_ And yes, thank you for bringing up again one of my favorite unresolved and ignored topics!!! Now, all we have to do is await for naysayers and unnamed sysops to come and paste a giant red NO on our foreheads to prove their might and ignorance. I'm not having anyone specific in particular on my mind of course :D Just generally speaking about those who disagree. And yes, there should be a single section listing all the benefits of Sage Mode, not for "different" modeS since there are none other and a removal of the animal labels as well. There is just this weird phenomenon for those who were taught by snakes turn into snakes, those that by toads into toads etc. so there's where the assumptions of different modes come from--Elveonora (talk) 13:50, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Hey. Real life (school and work), hobbies and forgetfulness kept me away. I still checked in every so often, just never got involved. xD Anyway, I'd question whether individuals who were taught by snakes would turn into snakes. We've never seen Kabuto loose control of natural energy, so the safest assumption is that he would turn into a toad as Naruto nearly did and the Preta Path actually did. Kabuto was already a snake, after all. :) Sage Mode just seemed to enhance his snake-related abilities, which is unsurprising given Fukasaku mentioned one's abilities are increased by it (ex: Naruto's healing rate and stamina). Skitts (talk) 14:45, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
But Preta Path having turned stone toad statue is a problem, isn't it? This for one gives evidence to their assertion of "animal specific" modes. But why would Kabuto have turned into a toad had he failed to master it? That would have implied Sage Mode having origins with the toads. Only good thing is that if that were true, it would actually take away credibility to their assertion of different modes, because it would mean every single Sage Mode is "toad sage mode" So basically both evidence for and against appear to be contradictory to the explanation as why that happens.
If everyone turns into a toad no matter what, it means a single Sage Mode, if it differs from person to person (which we are yet to see) then that doesn't necessarily mean many different modes :) So I think there's more evidence for a single Sage Mode--Elveonora (talk) 14:57, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
There seems to be no need to divide it into sections. All are basically the same. Probably a Known Sage Modes or something similar in the end might work.--~UltimateSupreme 15:04, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
@Elveonora The Preta Path example is the one that best supports the idea of a single Sage Mode. Remember, all Naruto did was pass on natural energy (or maybe senjutsu chakra) to him through his absorption technique, and the Preta Path, who had no known affiliation with any Sage location, still turned into a toad. And this doesn't indicate necessarily that Sage Mode originated with the toads (although it wouldn't really matter), as Fukasaku just said that a toad transformation and pretrification were the natural effects of not controlling the natural energy, not that it had anything to do with who Naruto was affiliated with when learning it. So given Kabuto drew in natural energy for the mode as all Sages do, the best assumption is that improper use would result in a toad transformation.
Well, I guess I'll get to it then. Or should we wait for more yays and nays? Skitts (talk) 15:35, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Maybe we should look at the broader picture of natural energy. The Shinju, natural energy embodied, originally a tree, has taken upon MANY form. Shapeshifting/transformation is a trait of natural energy it would appear. Same for Jugo's Clan and Curse Mark users, they all have different forms. And as such I don't like the notion of every Senjutsu School dropout turning into a toad and would like to ignore the Preta Path instance altogether. Perhaps Kishi didn't give it as much thought as we do. I like to convince myself that the form they take is dependent on their personality traits. This would explain why for example Jugo, who has unstable mind can shapeshift into many things, while Curse Mark users who did not get the madness part all have just a single form.--Elveonora (talk) 15:51, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Well now, that's the kind of speculation we're trying to remove from the article. :) What the Shinju does is kind of irrelevant here, it's the origin of all chakra too after all, and chakra has all sorts of uses. We already know there's a shapeshifting element to natural energy, just look at what happened to Jiraiya. Jugo's clan is something of a special case, in that it's their Kekkai Genkai that allows them to do shapeshifting after absorbing a little natural energy, and Orochimaru's Curse Marks are just an imitation of that. And not to sound mean, but it doesn't really matter what you want to be the case, but Fukasaku did note that a toad transformation and petrification is the drawback to improper Sage Mode, with no qualifications. The Preta Path instance cannot be ignored because it was a demonstration of that, with Fukasaku confirming that when it happened. Oh, and madness IS a part of the Curse Mark. Remember, one of the Sound Four told Sasuke that if he remained in the Curse Mark Leve 2 state for too long, he would begin to loose control mentally (Jugo's clan) and the energy would take over his body (like improper Sage Mode). Skitts (talk) 16:22, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

It was said that they would become like Orochimaru, not like Jugo. And I know we are trying to remove speculation, I was speaking hypothetically what would fit and make sense to me. The article just needs to be streamlined without actually removing anything. @Seel, would you look at it?--Elveonora (talk) 16:53, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

Sometimes I think we're the most backward wikia. I really wish that we could agree upon one thing, stick with it, and wait for clarification. Instead we beat dead horses, and those amongst us that were enlightened by JesusBuddhAllaHindugods but walks amongst us lowly humans finds every opportunity to undermine the wiki they can't walk away from. Not you Turry, how u doin~
Any way, we all are supposed to know by now that Sage Mode is just that - Sage mode. We tried to differentiate them because they aren't all the same. Modes learned through different methods reflect differently on persons. Toads look like toads, snakes look more like snakes. Are we supposed to ignore that? Are we supposed to differentiate Naruto's Mode from Jiraiya's even though they both learned from toads? To me the sections explains each usage as accurately as possible. If the pseudo-titles are that much of a bother, they can be changed but we can't lump them all together and ignore the obvious differences. --Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 17:17, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
That's the thing, Kabuto looked like that even without Sage Mode, it just gave him horns. Curse Mark gave Kimimaro- the bone guy, more bones, yet we don't consider that to be the Curse Mark's specific trait. We don't have any reason to believe that without Kabuto's prior experiments he would have looked any different than Naruto, with just the eyes changing. So the only "anomaly" is Hashirama, he we can say has "specific" mode until we learn more. But the animal labels irk me, also there's no reason to repeat "improved strength, speed etc." for each users, it's same for all.--Elveonora (talk) 17:26, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

This whole thing is problematic entirely because of Kabuto as far as I can tell. He's the only one that has other animal traits in Sage Mode, but one can't forget that he was a snake beforehand. My only problem is that it seems the only real reason we have the article like it is because Kabuto shenanigans. And I'm good Cerez. How goes you browski? Skitts (talk) 17:30, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we already have "toad sage mode" before Kabuto was even revealed to be a Sage Mode user?--Elveonora (talk) 17:32, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Nope. Skitts (talk) 17:34, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Cerez reflects my issue with lumping all of the Sage Mode styles together. Basically when you want to get down to it, yes there everything is Sage Mode. But then you get into the seperate styles: Naruto and Jiraiya learned Sage Mode from the toads. Kabuto and Orochimaru learned Sage Mode from the snakes (tho Kabuto was the only one who could make actual use of it).--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 21:26, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

"He's the only one that has other animal traits in Sage Mode" ~ Skitts

Not true, Jiraiya's hands, feet and face all took on toad like traits because he wasn't a "Perfect" sage. At the same time, in Sage mode, both Jiraiya and Naruto's eyes gain horizontal slits, whereas Kabuto gained vertical slits, which, given what happened with Kurama's power and sage mode, if the horizontal slit is indicative of Sage mode, and his eyes had the slit as a result of experimentation, shouldn't he has + shaped eyes too? Jugo, as the only example of his clan's ability without tampering, has no defined animal trait, but unsurpassed transformation properties compared to the rest. Hashirama's Sage form comes with markings unlike the others, but no particular animal trait or transformation from what we've seen. While all these characters possess a Sage Mode, or in Jugo's case a transformation related to the absorption of natural energy, none of them except the two trained by Toads share traits beyond facial marking, so saying that all Sage modes are the same is a lot more inaccurate than splitting them up. Even if they are mechanically the same, superficial things like the different facial markings and mutation from failure are seemingly independent of one another.--Hawkeye2701 (talk) 21:47, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

Hawkeye, you do realize I was talking about people who complete Sage Mode, right? Hence why I only brought up Naruto, Kabuto and Hashirama in that instance. Further, Kabuto ALREADY had vertical slits before Sage Mode, as well as most of all the animal traits. All he gained were horns as far as we can tell. Saying that all Sage Modes are the same is the most canonical thing to say given statements by Fukasaku that I've already mentioned, namely that the defining mark of a Sage is dark pigmentation around the eyes. He didn't make not of any particular design, but of dark pigment alone, which both Hashirama and Kabuto certainly had. And come on man, NO WHERE have we seen mutation from misuse be anything other than turning into a toad (i.e Preta Path and Naruto). We've never seen Kabuto or Hashi loose control, so you've no leg to stand on for your case.
@TU3 What do you mean by different styles? Different teachers sure, but I can't recall any display of anything specific to a particular user of Sage Mode, aside from individual techniques. Skitts (talk) 22:12, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
It means exactly as it sounds. While there is one Sage Mode, there are three known styles of it: Toad, which Naruto and Jiraiya use, Snake, which Kabuto can do and Orochimaru knows about, and Whatever-the-Eff-Hashirama-Does which Hashirama does. Trying to change it to imply that each Sage Mode is unique to the user implies that the toads at Mount Myōboku can teach someone how to grow brille over their eyes, or a snake from the Ryochi caves can teach someone Frog Kata.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 22:49, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
I could have sworn at one point that the article had an I commented mention that there was no such things as Toad or Snake Sage mode and that they are simply there out of convenience of us chronicling the information. The longer titles like "Sage Mode - taught by toads/snakes" would be bad for linking them in other articles.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 01:59, January 14, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, so I figured I'd get to this since there seems to be basic agreement. So my thought is to essentially remove the noticeable implication that there are distinct-ish Sage Modes, and merge them, give the general effects that Sagee Mode has been confirmed to have. Kabuto didn't display anything fundamentally or substantively different from Naruto, the Toads or Hashirama, so we seem good there. I think the only important thing to note is, as I said earlier, that while all of the designs of completed Sage Mode users differ, yet they all possessed the distinctive marker of a true sage that Fukasaku mentioned (dark pigment around the eyes). We good? We good. Skitts (talk) 01:42, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

The subsections are probably still neccesary to some extent. It could be organised like the Susanoo article - a general overview talking about how it works and what it does (enhanced jutsu, strength, speed, perception, etc.), then subsections for Jiraiya, Naruto, Kabuto, and Hashirama. The subsections could talk about things specific to each user, like Frog Kata, Muki Tensei, Jiraiya forming toad feet, etc. as well as Naruto's method of entering the Sage Mode. This way no unofficial terms are used at all, but all the information is still present and organised.--BeyondRed (talk) 02:34, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
As stated in the edit summary, yeah the last comment (Cerez) implies the discussion was still moving, it just fell off. Good job starting it up again. Maybe this time we can actually get to a conclusion.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 03:12, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
EDIT:And maybe simply just undo my edit and reinstate Skitts. From my first pass of it it doesn't seem wrong, if only a tad formated oddly (It looks weird to me. Probably fine, just looks strange to my old man eyes.)
And for reference, there is Skitt's version of the page Click me.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 03:17, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
Do note that I did all of this because i do like to get a clear end of a discussion. If nobody does say anything, I will consider this the end and make Skitt's version official anyway.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 03:19, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict times 2) @BeyondRed Huh? Muki Tensei is a technique, not a special ability of Kabuto's Sage Mode, Frog Kata is just a fighting-style and Naruto doesn't do anything special in entering Sage Mode. Those subsections are somewhat redundant. The only useful one you mentioned would be the one for Jiraiya, but only because his is the only imperfect transformation we've seen. The others seem superfluos, and the way it is currently lends itself to the unmistakeable implication that Hashiram and Kabuto are doing something distinct from Naruto, which we have no evidence for. The current setup itself is using unofficial terms. @TU3 It did? All that Cerez seems to be saying is some of the rationale behind the usage of the terms. If he was, my mistake. Skitts (talk) 03:21, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

I didn't mean to imply Frog Kata was exclusive to Naruto and that, say, Hashirama couldn't potentially use it because his Sage Mode looks different, that's the sort of speculation that is the current problem. Rather, I think it should be clear that while nothing states other users with "different" Sage Modes can't do certain things (like Frog Kata or Muki Tensei), nothing confirms they can either. At the very least, the article should still have images and descriptions of the four different Sage Modes we've seen, doesn't really have to be in subsections, but that could be a way of organising it so the main section doesn't feel cluttered.--BeyondRed (talk) 05:26, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

Why is it that no one here has ever thought of there being different types of natural energy? Natural energy comes from the ground and the air, emanating from plants and animals, right? So why wouldn't the natural energy be different? Mount Myoboku and Ryuuchi cave both have large populations of toads and snakes respectively, right? So would it not make sense for most of the natural energy to be emanating from them? And that those who train in those places, learn to absorb those specific energies? Has anyone here noticed that almost every cursed seal release resembles actual animals? (If not, go to Orochimaru's Juinjutsu and look at the prison picture). And how Jugo, one that can absorb natural energy innately, can change into anything he wants? Am I seriously the only one here that knows how to put two and two together to realize that what animal you transform into is dependent on what energy you learn to absorb, and other than that, the abilities are the same? Because the way I see it, its the only logical conclusion, and the fact that there are so many that don't understand that disturbs me. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 05:45, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

I actually have thought of that exact thing before and hope it does turn out to be the explanation, but it's still speculation. We can't but information into the article if it can't be referenced or even directly implied.--BeyondRed (talk) 06:30, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
That doesn't explain why Kabuto turns into a snake-dragon when there are no snakes around. The same goes for Naruto. How can he turn into a frog sage when there are no frogs around, whose nature energy would be absorbed by Naruto? Seelentau 愛 09:17, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
Wrong :P Naruto ate a toad and Kabuto had a snake merged with him... /solved?--Elveonora (talk) 21:35, January 24, 2014 (UTC)
Naisu try but no. Seelentau 愛 21:59, January 24, 2014 (UTC)

On topic, Ulti's/Skitt's version looks very good, one more time should it be compared and checked and unless someone will come to disagree, used asap.--Elveonora (talk) 22:57, January 24, 2014 (UTC)

The only thing I would want to add is that training under a certain animal leads to a different style. I don't like how Skitt's version reads as if Kabuto just became a snake Sage for no reason at all. In fact I don't think it even mention the Ryuchi Caves at all.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 23:02, January 24, 2014 (UTC)
As much information should be preserved, just without bias, speculation and vagueness. In the advantages part, it should be added that the user may learn senjutsu techniques unique to his/her animal species, like frog kata from toads, light and stone no jutsu from snakes and so on.--Elveonora (talk) 23:07, January 24, 2014 (UTC)

@BeyondRed Huh? Again, Muki Tensei is just senjutsu, and Frog Kata just a fighting-style. Saying there's no evidence other Sages can't use them is absurd given the series explanations on what ninjustus and chakra manipulation is. If you have the necessary skills to us e a technique, barring any genetic requirement, the technique can be used. Muki Tensei is just senjutsu, ergo other Sages can use it if they knew how, given what we know about chakra manipulation; Frog Kata is useable by any true Sage according to Fukasaku (right after Naruto first entered a completed SM), provided they've learned how.

  • As for why Kabuto changes, that's a little speculatory. My version of the article does note that particular oddity about Kabuto without speculating as to the reason. If we absolutely have to, the most canonical thing would be to go to what Fukasaku said about Sage Mode boosting one's natural abilities. He noted that both Sage Mode and Kurama's chakra boosted Naruto's healing rate to absurd levels. This could account for why Kabuto progresses. He was already a snake, and SM's boosting shows true what Fuksaku said about SM, by making him a 'dragon'. The other relevant problem is Kabuto's DNA tomfoolery, so I doubt even Fukasaku would be exactly sure why. And Kabuto was already a snake, so asking why SM made him a snake is nonsensical. :p

But again, that's more speculatory than I'm comfortable putting in the article as definite.Skitts (talk) 03:42, January 25, 2014 (UTC)

Bump--Elveonora (talk) 14:34, January 30, 2014 (UTC)

Already said my peace. Skitts version is fine, I would just suggest adding different areas appear to form different styles.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 14:36, January 30, 2014 (UTC)
Action > words :P--Elveonora (talk) 14:20, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

Just wanting to say those who revised this page did a excellent job. That is all :) --Questionaredude (talk) 19:59, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Surprised no one mentioned, at all in this discussion that the reason why each Sage Mode should be separate is because each seem to enhance the user's physical abilities differently. Toad Sage Mode gives Naruto, Minato, and Jiraiya enhanced durability, speed, and strength from the feats they've shown. Snake Sage Mode enhances maneuverability, speed and agility, while keeping durability and strength the same as shown in Kabuto. And Hashirama's Sage Mode grants increased endurance and enhances his regeneration, as shown through Madara. All have shown different physical aspects that are actually improved.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 03:42, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
Because that is your opinion and has no place in this article. When someone mentions that Toad/Hashirama/Snake Sage Mode has any variations between the augmentation they offer, then we'll add it, but we don't just add what we come up with off the top of our head to articles. That's called speculation. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 03:59, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
I think you need to look up what speculation actually is. Kishimoto has been distinct on the physical enhancements Sage Mode gave those from the different disciplines. Do you see Kabuto tossing boss summons around? Especially when he failed to send Itachi fly back with a strike? Or Hashirama/Madara doing the same thing? And the durability varies wildly: only Madara's Chakra Disruption Blades have pierced Toad Sage Mode skin, while both Hashirama's and Kabuto's have been pierced by a normal blade. Seriously, feats show it. I've even added them in the past. Not everything needs to be spelled out, this is a logical conclusion.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 04:30, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

That's just your assumption. By the same logic (since Naruto could lift and throw a giant boulder) he could have just thrown Pain away from Konoha, sending him on a tour around the world, yet he didn't.--Elveonora (talk) 17:24, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

Slug Sage Mode

Due to the fact that Sage Mode can be learned from the Toad Sages at Mount Myoboku, from the Snake Sage at the Ryuchi Cave, and we have learned that the slug Katsuyu comes from the Shikkotsu Forest. A place stated to be equally famous to Mount Myoboku and the Ryuchi Cave. It is heavily implied that there are slug sages at the Shikkotsu Forest where one can learn Sage Mode from them. Hashirama Senju, is capable of using a third unknown Sage Mode. Considering his granddaughter, Tsunade, can summon slugs and is called the Slug Princess it is likely that his Sage Mode is the Sage Mode learned from the slugs. Also due to the fact that slugs appear to be aligned with healing and Madara Uchiha stated that he had obtained Hashirama's regenerative abilities (after obtaining his Sage Mode) would this not further imply that he had learned his Sage Mode from the slugs? Also due to the whole toad, snake, and slug symbolism it would make sense. I know it isn't a fact so it cannot be stated. But I think it has enough evidence to be added into the trivia section perhaps? Thoughts anyone? Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 03:46, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

For all we know, Hashirama didn't even learn Sage Mode from an animal. We don't know what he summons if he even summons an animal to begin with. There is no evidence. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 04:00, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

The only known ways so far is via an animal. So where else could he learn it? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 04:25, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

It was stated there was 3 special places that taught senjutsu i believe, the bone forest place, mt. miyoboku and ryuchi cave and orochimaru said the slugs come from bone forest place or whatever. so yes it is VERY likely and possible that that is where Hashi learned it, but it can only be added when confirmed. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 04:42, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

No, it said that the "Ryūichi Cave is a place of equal fame to Myōbokuzan and the Shikkotsu Forest". ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 04:44, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

That that's the name, but he is right Senjutsu is only known to have been taught or stolen like in madara's case. It was also hinted at one point that you did not need a contract to find these places or learn senjutsu there. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 04:49, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's true. But the fact that toads come from Mount Myoboku and there is toad sages there, snakes come from the Ryuchi Cave and there is a snake sage there, and we have learned that there is a Shikkotsu Forest and that the slug Katsuyu comes from there. Especially since Hashirama has a third unknown Sage Mode and so far the previous two sage modes have been Toad and Snake, in order to keep the toad, snake, and slug symbolism it would make since for Hashirama to have a "Slug Sage Mode". But it's true it isn't a fact or officially confirmed. Which is why I suggested adding it to trivia. There is more evidence and similar abilities that hint at it being Slug Sage Mode. So that's why I believe it should be listed in the trivia section. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 04:55, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

My point is, until we have definite proof, we're steering away from speculation. I actually think Hashirama's Sage Mode is related to the slugs myself, but, professionally, that just doesn't belong in an article. Just because Tsunade is his granddaughter doesn't mean he shares her summons, that he has a contract with a slug (the reference you mention, Itachi, is anime-only, and therefore we must throw that out with regards to manga information. You need a contract to summon), or that he learned Sage Mode where the slugs reside. And you're missing another point. The three locations mentioned (for snakes, toads, and slugs) are only noted to be famous. For all we know, there are other places to learn senjutsu. There are just too many unknowns to say for sure. I suggest just letting it go until we get a new databook or clarification in a later chapter. Because, by your logic, we'd have to list Tsunade as a Sage because Orochimaru and Jiraiya learned Senjutsu, so therefore she must've learned it too. See where that kind of loose ends logic leads? Not very productive. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 05:02, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

Alright, I guess you're right. It would be better to wait a little longer until another source of info is released that confirms what Sage Mode Hashirama is using. I get your point. I'll just go ahead and leave this topic alone until further confirmation. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 05:07, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

This is just my opinion but, I don't think it's too far-fetched to assume that there could be a "Slug Sage Mode".
First, to address a topic discussed above, while I agree that there is technically only one Sage Mode, I believe the differences between the modes we see come from the specific techniques used to achieve them. The techniques taught at Mount Myoboku by the toads result in the toad-like traits exhibited by Jiraya and Naruto (even if it's just his eyes) and, while Kabuto already had snake-like traits and may also be a special case due to his self-experimentation, it seems to me that his sage mode (resulting from techniques taught at Ryuchi Cave) only increased said snake-like traits (even if it's just some horns on his face).
If we look at the facts, we know that Shikkotsu Forest is compared to both Mount Myoboku and Ryuchi Cave, and that the three Sannin's summons each come from those locations. Jiraya is known to be a Sage, while Orochimaru is, at the very least, capable of manipulating Sage Chakra (even if his host bodies won't allow him to enter Sage Mode), and is probably also a Sage. While we don't know what technique Hashirama uses to enter Sage Mode, or what summon (if any) he utilizes, Tsunade is his descendant, is one of the three Legendary Ninja, and summons Katsuya. With as many parallels this series seems to implement, it seems reasonable (while still speculative) that Hashirama could have learned the techniques to enter Sage Mode from the slugs at Shikkotsu Forest.
This last bit is highly speculative but, Tsunade's Strength of a Hundred Seal seems very similar to a Curse Mark, or even the Sage Mode markings. I don't believe this to actually be a Sage Art/Technique, but could be modeled after one (sort of like how the Rasengan is modeled after a Tailed Beast Ball). It was stated by Madara that this technique is similar to Hashirama's style of medical ninjutsu, and it is noted that Katsuya is somehow "directly linked to and supported by the seal."
What I take from all of this information is that Hashirama may indeed have been trained in Sage Arts by the slugs of Shikkotsu Forest, which helped him to form his advanced medical ninjutsu techniques. These (non-Sage) techniques would have been passed down to Tsunade who formed the Seal and Creation Rebirth techniques. Obviously, none of this is even hinted at in the series but, being that there are so many gaps in information, this is what I like to fill them with. It just makes sense to me. Hopefully we'll get some sort of official explanation soon.--Tronyc714 (talk) 11:15, June 13, 2014 (UTC)

Perfect Sage Mode

When the user achieves no animalistic traits, they've achieved Perfect Sage Mode. Explicitly said so in the manga since the balance is perfect.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 19:41, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Was the term "perfect" ever used? Also there always are "animalistic" (lol?) traits, them being the eyes and so--Elveonora (talk) 19:54, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, Fukasaku explicitly called the state where no animal traits (like what Jiraiya got) was perfect, with only the eyes and the pigmentation around them being the only change. Check chapter 418.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 19:58, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
No, he doesn't. • Seelentau 愛 20:13, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
Then what was the differentiation between Naruto's state and Jiraiya's?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 20:34, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
The unbalanced energies. But I meant Fukasaku and his words. He didn't use "perfect" or anything alike. • Seelentau 愛 20:36, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Fukasaku just said "The pigmentation around his (Naruto's) eyes is the proof of a true Sage, it means he could perfectly balance the three energies. From this point, he truly surpassed Jiraiya!", nothing about a Perfect Sage Mode.--JOA20 (talk) 20:47, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Then just replace "Perfect Sage Mode" with "True Sage Mode". Is that what is being suggested, a denomination for a Sage Mode with perfectly balanced energies? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:08, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
He doesn't say "true", either... • Seelentau 愛 08:52, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

Turning to stone

In the disadvantage section it says If the user draws in too much natural energy, they run the risk of transforming into a toad, and then into stone. We only know that this applies to those who are Toad Sages right? Now that we also got Snake Sages. --Kasan94 Nara Symbol Talkpage 21:52, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

People went full ham when we tried to draw a full separation between Toad Sages and Snake Sages. If you want to add that the "turn to a stone toad" as a risk only for those training under toads, you are welcome to find to put it into the article.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 11:13, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! --Kasan94 Nara Symbol Talkpage 11:38, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
Why would only "toad sages" turn into stone? Natural energy is natural energy--Elveonora (talk) 12:03, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
Because the sentence reads "blah blah blah transforming into a toad, blah blah stone"?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:05, July 28, 2014 (UTC)

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