Talk:Sage

Why was this article put up for deletion? --ShounenSuki ^{(talk | contribs)} 17:55, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Idk, Tserg seems to like putting delete tags up for no reason... Simant (talk) 17:59, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

That is just a memory waste: Narutopedia, as well as Wikipedia strongly suggest that the pages are not created where articles consist of 1 - 2 sentences. The same ones are in the Senjutsu page. That's not because I've been entertaining myself. --Tserg (talk) 12:37, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

Where do they suggest that?

Any way, the article has enough potential for expansion, methinks. It also allows us to use 'sage' as a character classification. --ShounenSuki ^{(talk | contribs)} 14:41, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

Character Classification is ok, but if it really has enough potential, if you think, that this article will be used in the long run, then why not to wait a liitle bit and collect enough info, at least for one paragraph, for a stub-level, at once. Up for now this article is completely pointless: it doesn't give any information about sages, except the definition, which have already been written in the another article. Also, it haven't been edited much since June of this year. Unfortunately, short, pointless articles should be deleted, as it is written in the rules. [1] --Tserg (talk) 15:15, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

If your referring to "Do not make pointless articles. If you see one, put the Request for Deletion tag on", this article hardly matches that criteria. Classification itself is enough for it not to be tagged. This article also links to other more useful article should the reader want to know more i.e Senjutsu, and Sage mode...--AlienGamer--Talk ^(contribs)-- 15:16, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

Well guys, you know: democracy rules; I've just suggested that it is deleted, however, it is really pointless. I've already written that it is not even a stub. And I'm not a lawyer to say that there have been any very serious law violation here; it wasn't - I totally agree. Nevertheless, the same text already exists in a more influental article (Senjutsu) - I would just make it more visible there. Example: have you ever read an A4 book encyclopedia, where only one sentence is printed on one page? As for me, I haven't. I repeat, that I'm not entertaining myself by doing that. --Tserg (talk) 21:33, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

The page exists because it needs to for semantics to work properly. Otherwise characters like Naruto are listed as "senjutsu" instead of "Sage". ~SnapperTo 02:39, October 4, 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that's much better :) --Tserg (talk) 06:20, October 4, 2009 (UTC)

Hey I managed to make a nice screenshot of Naruto as a sage, from episode 156. I was thinking it could replace them manga image we have in the Sage article right now. I don't exactly know how to add a link to an image so I'll just put down the whole link.Me4899 (talk) 17:34, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

[[2]]

Recent revelations

So, since based on what was said in the recent chapter and what we already know about the shinju and its jinchuuriki, is it safe to assume that ten-tails jinchuuriki = sage mode? Or if not sage mode, then at least sage? Because Madara referred to it as the rikudou's senjutsu. Making it highly unlikely that he has any other form of it. And as its his namesake (other than making ninshuu, which I don't think makes you a sage) Its probable that this ability is why he's called a sage. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 07:02, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

Bump. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 15:04, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, from what I understood, being jinchuuriki of the Shinju = Senjutsu. It's natural energy after all.--Elveonora (talk) 15:26, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. The height of being a Jinchuuriki (as in Juubi, ultimate Jinchuuriki) seems to be being a "sage". Even separate, the bijuu are the Juubi chakra. Though getting into what that means would be wild accusations and assumptions, theories. --Taynio (talk) 15:34, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

Is it because of that or because of the Sage chakra he took from Hashirama? Arrancar79 (talk) 22:51, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

Not because of chakra from Hashi. Although that is what was previously thought until now. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 01:03, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Sensing Natural Energy

I've noticed the revisions going on about whether those untrained in senjutsu can detect natural energy, and I'd look to point out that we are explicitly told they cannot by Fukusaku in chapter 409. Sasuke sensing it during his battle with Naruto appears to be an inconsistency, unless it's somehow related to the power he received from Hagoromo. On the other hand, it seems anybody can sense senjutsu chakra, as both Tobirama and Karin did so, and it was even stated to have a different feel than regular chakra.--BeyondRed (talk) 05:59, March 25, 2015 (UTC)

User: Narutofan92 keeps adding it regardless of I and others telling him/her not to. Won't listen, I guess. ★WindStar7125 06:12, March 26, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah. I guess there's some validity to the info, but there are two conflicting scenes. One where non-sages can't sense natural energy, and one where they can. I don't think it's ever even been addressed at any other point in the series.--BeyondRed (talk) 07:50, March 26, 2015 (UTC)

For the sake of argument

Okay, I've been looking at a lot of hype and controversy about the use of senjutsu chakra, and I am sick of other wiki users, i.e. WindStar7125 saying otherwise. So let's do this then for the sake of argument. One of these guys was talking about Sasuke, Tobirama, and/or Karin sensing senjutsu chakra; if they’d have paid more attention to the anime and manga they clearly cannot sense this chakra, or at least, the energy used to creat it. Think about it; while Karin is a very skilled sensor type, if she was able to sense natural energy, then she would’ve been able to tell what senjutsu chakra was. However, just as explain in the manga, only those trained in senjutsu can perceive this kind of chakra because they can sense the natural energy used to create this chakra; as well as being able to sense others’ (normal) chakra.

Let's get to the for the sake of argument now. Karin is considered a very skilled sensor type. She is able to sense others' chakra signature from long distances and can even hide her own chakra from others. However, it would be unlikely for Karin to tell when one is in Sage Mode without being near them, for sages use senjutsu chakra; and this kind of chakra is used by adding nature energy which, like Naruto's negative emotions sensing, is something no other sensor type can sense who are not trained in senjutsu. Case in point, Karin shouldn't be able to sense senjutsu chakra because she has not been trained to sense it.

Now for Tobirama. While Tobirama is a powerful ninja, he too does not have the ability to sense sage techniques. When he (and Naruto) noticed that Gamakichi's attack was effective on Obito's truth-seeking ball he recognized that Gamakichi was a toad from Mount Myoboku and that his technique used natural energy to nullify Obito's. The reason he has knowledge of senjutsu and natural energy is because his brother Hashirama is a sage.

And finally, we have Sasuke. Here's where we talk about a lot of things about why Sasuke isn't really able to sense senjutsu chakra. First of all, if Sasuke could sense natural energy, why didn't he know that the Ten-tails, it's jinchuuriki, and abilities were weak against natural energy? When Naruto went into sage mode for a brief moment he could sense natural energy coming from the ten tails when he was trying to sense it's chakra. In fact, again, Kurama mentioned to Naruto that the ten tails' chakra was near-impossible to sense; this being because it's chakra was predominately natural energy. Another example, when Sasuke and Itachi were fighting Kabuto, who became a practitioner of sage mode, it was hard for both Uchiha to sense Kabuto because they weren't senjutsu users; in fact on both occasions when Kabuto was explaining what his abilities were, and Naruto explaining the ten tails' power, Sasuke had little to no idea of what any of them were talking about. Like Tobirama though, Itachi was familiar with senjutsu because he's probably had experience against it. Anyway, my point is that Sasuke couldn't be able to sense senjutsu chakra, because he's had no real knowledge of it.Narutofan92 (talk) 15:44, April 21, 2015 (UTC)

Thing is, Sasuke was able to sense Naruto's natural energy in their final battle.

★WindStar7125 15:53, April 21, 2015 (UTC)

And all of that is just your own random opinion and doesn't belong in an article on the wiki. --Sajuuk _[Mod] ^{talk | contribs | Channel} 16:33, April 21, 2015 (UTC)

Then, let's have another "for the sake of argument" here regarding Sasuke, by talking about the parallels between the curse mark, sage transformation, and sage mode. Kabuto, becoming a sage, had learned about sage mode by going to Ryuchi cave to learn it from the White Snake Sage. And after absorbing Orochimaru's body onto himself, which gives him access to Jugo's sage transformation ability (which the curse seal is derived from), he can passively absorb natural energy to add into his own personal chakra, creating sage chakra. Jugo's sage transformation is like Fukasaku and Shima's Amphibian Technique, which passes on natural energy to a user and the toad oil, which in the body helps the energy absorb into the user's body passively.

Orochimaru's curse seal is somewhat different from Jugo's ability though; while the process works similarly, it has a few modifications. The curse seal is actually a combination of Orochimaru's own personal chakra and Jugo's enzymes which have a biological ability to passively absorb nature energy. While after absorbing the energy does the user(s) get a boost in their abilities, I would argue that they are not exactly as strong as someone in Sage Mode. I say this because, in Jugo's case, when he or anyone absorbs the energy they tend to go berserk and their appearances changed. However, in Sasuke’s case, over time he was able to freely control using the curse mark at will, thus using it as if it was his own; but no where did it indicate that Orochimaru himself ever taught Sasuke what causes the curse mark to work, only what is used to activate it, which was using his own abilities and emotions. But it was never indicated that Sasuke knew what natural energy was and where it comes from.

And now, for Sage Mode. Naruto on the other hand was taught sage mode by learning about natural energy; although it took him awhile to figure it out because he’s kind of a dope. For real sages, the process of senjutsu is to add natural energy with the two other energies used to create ones own personal chakra; spiritual energy and physical energy. The process is to stay completely still and to absorb the energy without the need for toad oil or anything else. In short, the difference between Sage Mode and Curse Mark/Sage transformation users is, it’s all about “balance”. Sage mode users are taught how to “balance” the natural energy with their own chakra evenly, “becoming one with nature”; thus giving them a dramatic boost in their abilities and the ability to sense nature energy and others’ chakra around them. Now curse seal and sage tranformers on the other hand, while they can “passively” absorb nature energy, as explained by Anko whom is a “survivor” of the curse seal, is actually draining the users own chakra replacing it with nothing but natural energy; in other words “taking it away”. Since the user(s) chakra is being drained, it doesn’t balance with the natural energy, thus lacking the ability to sense the energy and chakra it develops. While boosting some abilities, in my opinion doesn’t make them as strong as those in sage mode.

Finally, when Naruto and Sasuke had their final battle, it wasn’t senjutsu chakra Sasuke was sensing, it had to be the Six Paths chakra the two received from Hagoromo; Six paths yin and yang users can sense each other from miles away. He probably noticed naruto using senjutsu because he’s witnessed him using it. If Sasuke could sense senjutsu before, why couldn’t he tell Naruto was adding senjutsu to his Rasengan to attack Obito? *Note: I apologize for this gruesomely long argument. Narutofan92 (talk) 20:05, April 21, 2015 (UTC)

It had to be Six Paths Chakra? Dude. Read the manga. Chapter 696. Sasuke literally says "I feel it...! Out of nowhere this incredible amount of natural energy." The only chakra that was stated to be composed of natural energy is senjutsu chakra.

That is why this edit of yours was reverted. That is why a multitude of editors on this wiki, not just me, reverted your edits. Because concerning this topic, they are false information that contradict what the manga says.

Your edits consist of inserting this statement into the Sage article: "Those who are untrained in senjutsu cannot sense senjutsu chakra/natural energy." Sasuke sensing natural energy in his final battle with Naruto makes that statement false. Unlike Naruto, Kabuto, Minato, and others, Sasuke was never formally trained in the art of senjutsu.

Yes, Sasuke has used senjutsu chakra before, but wasn't trained like a Sage would be (i.e. Mount Myōboku, Ryūchi Cave with the White Snake Sage). Hence why other users took your edits out altogether in this article. ★WindStar7125 21:59, April 21, 2015 (UTC)

I will point out that it was established in chapter 409 that natural energy (not senjutsu chakra) cannot be sensed, and the fact that Kurama said only Sage Mode users can sense the Ten-Tails (whose power is natural energy itself) supports this. But Orochimaru outright stated that Karin sensed Kabuto's senjutsu chakra, and Sasuke did indeed feel the natural energy that Naruto was gathering during their final battle. So if anything, without doing a ton of speculation, it appears to be a simple case of the manga contradicting itself on a minor point. Personally, I don't see why this contradiction couldn't be added as a trivia point on the relevant pages, as long as the specific instances are referenced, but it is demonstrably incorrect to state that non-sages cannot sense natural energy/senjutsu chakra under any circumstances. --BeyondRed (talk) 01:43, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

Oh yeah, Orochimaru did say that... That helps... ★WindStar7125 02:50, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. He even implied that senjutsu chakra has a different sort of feeling to it than regular chakra, so the idea that it cannot be sensed is unfounded. The conflicting comments about whether natural energy can be felt by non-sages are the problem.--BeyondRed (talk) 03:01, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

I just read over chapter 409. Where did it explicitly state (or rather, who stated) that "those who are untrained in senjutsu cannot sense senjutsu chakra/natural energy" in that context? Sure, only Naruto wasn't able to sense it at the time, but how do we know that applies to everyone else? Chapter 409 showed that Naruto wasn't able to sense natural energy before training. It was never stated that all those untrained can't sense it (unless a databook or somewhere else said something?). --★WindStar7125 03:26, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

I guess it isn't explicitly said that absolutely nobody can sense natural energy without senjutsu training, but I see no reason for Sasuke to be able to sense it when Naruto can't, since we know that neither are sensor types. It can't be an ability of the Rinnegan either, since Nagato wasn't able to see it attacking Preta Path (and he actually is a sensor type). Plus, Kurama heavily implied it when he explained why Naruto couldn't sense Ten-Tails in chakra mode, despite it granting him regular sensory capabilities. Anyway, I'll have to skim through the third databook and see if I can find anything about this.--BeyondRed (talk) 04:20, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

Something to take into account is that natural energy =/= senjutsu chakra. There's no reason to believe that senjutsu chakra can't be sensed, considering it's also made of spiritual and physical energy. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 04:23, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

Right, Karin (and possibly Tobirama) were able to sense senjutsu chakra, so there shouldn't be any doubt about that. Anyway, just looked at the Viz translations of 409 and 410. In the latter chapter, Fukasaku states that animals like toads and humans can only sense and gather natural energy by learning to stop their movements and synchronise with nature. So it's possible that Sasuke learnt how to do that at some point (which may be getting into speculation territory), but under normal circumstances it cannot be sensed, hence Naruto having to stay still and enter Sage Mode in order to sense the Ten-Tails's natural energy (even though we know it does have actual chakra, but I guess that's another topic entirely).--BeyondRed (talk) 04:44, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

Nobody here said natural energy is senjutsu chakra. ★WindStar7125 05:28, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

No, he wasn't. That was Naruto's reaction to the Natural Energy going to him, Sasuke wasn't shown thinking or saying anything.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 05:39, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

Nope, that was indeed Sasuke, check the raws. ★WindStar7125 11:53, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

Why are we having this discussion? This is just speculation, use a forum board for that. --Sajuuk _[Mod] ^{talk | contribs | Channel} 11:55, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

Not everything needs to go in the forums, Sajuuk. Seriously. Narutofan92 made an edit, it got reverted, so he goes on the talkpage to discuss why. Talkpage is valid, the forums aren't needed here. ★WindStar7125 12:06, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

No, this turned into a big discussion about someone's random speculative opinion. None of this has anything to do with the edits that were made. Unless that part is obscured somewhere in the discussion. --Sajuuk _[Mod] ^{talk | contribs | Channel} 12:14, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

Alright, I get it. Seems like I can't win this debate. So fine I'll forget it. But before I finish, let me just close off with one final "for the sake of argument" debate. The Ten-tails. It was stated by Kurama that the ten tails couldn't be sensed by ordinary sensing techniques, for because its chakra was made predominantly out of natural energy. So when Naruto was in sage mode, briefly, he could sense nothing but natural energy from it. Why couldn't any other sensor, including Karin, tell what the beasts weakness was? Sasuke too. I find senjutsu to be like negative emotions sensing; only available under sole conditions.

In chapter 642 & episode 379, when Naruto utilized senjutsu into his Rasengan and attacked Obito, why'd Sasuke question what just happened? When he turned to look behind himself and noticed Naruto's eyes changed he didn't seem to know what happened to him. Wasn't he considered a natural genius; if he couldn't figure out what was the cause of the attack being so effective? Why couldn't he tell what was being used? Also, if Karin and Tobirama could sense the ten tails' chakra from the beginning, then why didn't they figure out its weakness from before? Tobirama has knowledge of senjutsu because his brother Hashirama is a sage.

Next, during the final battle, it was Naruto, not Sasuke, that was sensing the natural energy; because during the fight one of his shadow clones in Kurama mode was gathering up the energy and in six paths sage mode it's a lot faster and easier to absorb natural energy in that state - chapter 696.

Then, for...The...sake...of...argument, let's talk about the juinjutsu and senninka. Long story short, both can absorb natural energy, but at the same time the users are losing their own personal chakra - chapter 66. When Orochimaru went to learn senjutsu, none of his new bodies were strong enough to withstand the Absorption of natural energy. So by taking some of Jugo's dna and mixing it with his own chakra, Orochimaru created a curse mark. However, the mechanism of the curse mark and senninka works kind of like a when Naruto first received Nine-tails chakra mode. As one is using the "borrowed" power, the power is taking away the users' chakra - chapter 519 & episode 264. While "real" sages "balance" the nature energy within them with their own chakra.

So you could argue saying that sasuke could feel the change in him, but couldn't "sense" what it was. And now that he's lost it, he can't use the curse seal anymore; but when he and Jugo infused in his Susanoo, it's because sasuke's body had already adapted to the power. Plus, it wasn't until his fight against Kabuto that we learned the history of his ability. Even after that when Naruto attacked Obito.

Now, the Six Paths power. Naruto and Sasuke were each given half of Hagoromo's abilities, two completely different powers, but on an even scale of strength. Sasuke was given the Rinnegan, while Naruto was given the Senjutsu. Plus, they were given the ability to sense each other's presence, not their chakras. The Rinnegan is one of the three great dojutsus. And they all have in common the ability to see chakra flow making them close to sensor types, but not natural energy which creates senjutsu chakra. For example, when Naruto fought Pain and used his frog kumite, which is made from natural energy/senjutsu chakra, he couldn't see or sense anything while getting hit, thinking he dodged the attack but was really hit. Leaving neither dojutsu users being able to perceive senjutsu.

I'll tell you what, in conclusion, how about we make a little wager. Anybody who can go through any chapters and/or episodes and indicate where you see any evidence that proves that any other shinobi is capable of locating a Sage's power, show it to me and if I find anything "convincing" enough, I will let you know and I will forget about editing this page and will not do it again. But if I find "nothing" convincing me about it, I will let you know, and I will be free to edit anything on this page, anywhere I want and "no one, and I mean no one" is to delete it or complain about it whatsoever, under any circumstances. Deal?Narutofan92 (talk) 14:26, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

Two things:

1. Stop writing text walls to prove a point.
2. You cannot tell people they cannot remove your information. By contributing here, you give free rights to allow anyone to remove it. If you don't want your edits to be mercilessly edited by others, don't submit it here. --Sajuuk _[Mod] ^{talk | contribs | Channel} 14:31, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

Well then, since you put it that way I guess I should just renounce my decision then. I'll continue editing the page until it becomes absolute. And if anyone has access to delete any edits, that means I can get to delete others that I find inaccurate too. Thanks Sajuuk; you really helped with my resolve.Narutofan92 (talk) 17:38, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

You are not wrong. You are free to make an edit, even provided giant walls of texts as long as they prove your point. Nobody can tell you how you express your point or opinion.

That said, you are wrong with what you want to add into the article for the simple fact that the manga straight contradicted proved that the non-Sage Sasuke could sense the natural energy/senjutsu chakra/whatever in Naruto. There is quite literally no way to argue this fact because we all saw it. And as such, while everybody has the right to edit or remove each others contributions, you do not have the right to continually add wrong information.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 17:55, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but there is still no one answering my question about Pain and Sasuke. When Naruto faught Pain, he used his frog kata which is made of the senjutsu chakra that Naruto got from the natural energy and used it as an extension of his body; he swung at Pain and looking like he missed, it really hit him but Pain didn't see anything that hit him. And Pain has the Rinnegan; a dojutsu that works just like the Byakugan and Sharingan when it comes to see chakra flow and he couldn't even see the aura around naruto made up of senjutsu chakra? And then, when Naruto added senjutsu to his Rasengan and struck Obito, why didn't Sasuke realize what was going on behind Naruto when he was absorbing the energy, and why was he so stunned that the senjutsu added Rasengan worked on Obito, looking like he didn't sense a thing. Somebody please answer my questions. And again, to me sage transformation users are pseudo-Sages because they are not exactly one with nature. Same goes for curse mark users, and Sasuke lost his curse mark.You know what, that's what I would like to call anyone who can sense senjutsu that is not a real Sage.Narutofan92 (talk) 00:15, April 23, 2015 (UTC)

Pain also didn't see that all of the rocks around him were transformed Naruto clones. We know that sensor types have to actively shift their chakra into a sensory mode (not sure of the exact term) in order to detect chakra, as established by Minato, so dōjutsu may work the same for all we know. As for what can be added to the pages without conflicting with the manga or speculating, we could say that Fukasaku stated animals like toads and humans must first learn to become one with nature before sensing natural energy,(chapter 410) which was true for Naruto, but at least one individual (Sasuke) was able to sense said energy without undergoing that training.(chapter 696) Everything in the previous sentence can be referenced and if worded correctly, it could be added to the relevant articles without any sort of speculation as to why it was different for Naruto and Sasuke.--BeyondRed (talk) 03:44, April 23, 2015 (UTC)

Am not doing to debate here and this my first and last post on this topic, i doing this for "sake of argument". So question is there any possibility that line about feeling huge senchakra was Naruto's and not Sasuke's? ./Rage gtx (talk) 04:13, April 23, 2015 (UTC)