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'Evolution of Sharingan'

Why exactly do we say that Sharingan evolves into Rinnegan? Is it actually true? Wasn't it just Orochimaru and Kabuto's hypothesis, which is incorrect. As shown, both the Sharingan and Rinnegan have origins within the Rinne Sharingan, so Rinnegan can't be evolution of the Sharingan, they are 2 pieces of the original form.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 17:13, December 1, 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Elve here, it's not true.

EDIT:Err... where does it say that it's evolved form is the Rinnegan? the article also talks about the hypothesis.--Mecha Naruto (talk) 17:23, December 1, 2016 (UTC)

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sharingan#Evolution the Rinnegan article also talks of Sharingan becoming Rinnegan, but where did people get this from? It was only a hypothesis of Orochimaru and Kabuto, probably knowing that both clans are descended from Hagoromo, that combining powers of Uchiha and Senju makes the Sharingan progress beyond, into the Rinnegan. But they got it wrong, combining powers of Uchiha and Senju isn't enough to manifest the Rinnegan, it has to be chakras of Asura and Indra, likewise, the Sharingan doesn't become the Rinnegan, they are separate doujutsu.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 17:51, December 1, 2016 (UTC)

I would agree, but if the Sharingan wasn't needed to get Rinnegan than Naruto would have awakened it when Hagoromo gave him half of his chakra. You still need the Sharingan to get Rinnegan... QuakingStar (talk) 18:02, December 1, 2016 (UTC)

Honestly, it's a jumbled mess. But in just about every instance, Sharingan has to evolve into a Rinnegan. Otherwise what would basically have to happen was that the Sharingan eye would have to be removed and replaced with a Rinnegan, which we know isn't the case. For example, Madara's eyes evolved into a Rinnegan after he got some Senju in him (ha!) and for a more fudge you example, the anime shows that Hogoromo started out with a Sharingan before getting the Rinnegan. Hell I even believe we've seen with Sasuke uses up too much chakra his Rinnegan devolves back into a Sharingan. So the Hypothesis isn't actually wrong. Just a weird case where the originator of the dojutsu; the Rinne Sharingan, devovles after successive generations.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 18:48, December 1, 2016 (UTC)
@Quaking, that's not how it works, Hagoromo gave Naruto different part/aspect of his chakra than to Sasuke. Think of chakra as genome, just like different genes make it up, different aspects of chakra can be shared/inherited. Take Ten-Tails for example. It's not like Shukaku lets say has 10% of the Ten-Tails' chakra volume, rather it has 10% of the Ten-Tails' chakra genome/sequence. Obviously Naruto and Sasuke weren't given exactly the same chakra, otherwise both would have received same traits.
@Ulti, what the Sharingan is, is special brain chakra exhibited by certain members of Uchiha Clan, Indra and possibly Hagoromo, excreting into the optic nerve, affecting it, it's Sharingan only when said chakra transforms the eye, otherwise it's just an ordinary eye. As Madara demonstrated, he could switch from Rinnegan to Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan. If his Sharingan had evolved into Rinnegan, it would have disappeared with him being unable to access the power, which is not the case. And when did we see that?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 19:32, December 1, 2016 (UTC)
Actually, switching is not an argument since all we know that MS is surely an evolution of the regular Sharingan, but it doesn't mean that its user cannot use Sharingan anymore; in fact, all the MS users preferred to use norman Sharingan and switched to the MS when it was really necessary. Yet we always call MS a Sharingan evolution and have no doubt about it.
Either it doesn't seem that Hagoromo gave Naruto/Sasuke different chakra types, it's the same Six Paths Chakra all the way the only thing which differs is the infuence it has on each of them. SPS affected Sasuke's eye nerve and turned it into the Rinnegan, but it was possible only due to the eyes already being influenced by a special chakra and developing into Sharingan > MS (> EMS). "Sharingan" component is an innate trait of all the Indra's reincarnates, the same way as "body" component always belonged to those of Asura. Hagoromo's chakra just strenghened both of these components and upgraded them to the new stages which Hagoromo himself possessed. So technically, Rinnegan is still a Sharingan evolution, it surely doesn't stem from it, but is a more advanced and ancient version of which got dulitued over the time and thus can be recreated only with certain conditions met. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 19:50, December 1, 2016 (UTC)
I was talking about Madara switching to EMS to cast genjutsu, showing that both doujutsu were available, meaning the Sharingan didn't become Rinnegan. And I disagree about that, they didn't receive the same chakra. If Sakura were to receive the entirety of Hagoromo's chakra, she would get Rinnegan (possibly Sharingan too) and Six Paths Senjutsu, there is no requirement of one possessing eyes and getting eye upgrade and the other possessing body and getting better body or whatever. Also 'Six Paths Chakra' isn't some special chakra type, it hasn't been stated anywhere, so I have no idea why we label it chakra type and state it does this or that, it's only a description and could possibly just mean 'Hagoromo's chakra'--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 20:01, December 1, 2016 (UTC)
Bump, besides a hypothesis in-series which was wrong, it has not been stated anywhere that Sharingan evolves into Rinnegan/Rinnegan is higher level of Sharingan or wharever, there is no evidence for that, but there is plenty contrary evidence for that, so I can't comprehend and help myself but wonder, why is it stated as a fact over this wiki? I miss the days when ShounenSuki was around and things got double checked. Nowadays, this wiki has many things that we have no idea what they are, what they mean, what the context is, but we pretend that we do in the articles (example Six Paths Chakra, should be removed as a chakra type and as a section in characers' abilities, since we have freaking no idea what it is or if it even is chakra type) I don't understand why it has become a problem to say: 'It's unknown what x means, how x works etc.' instead we must make up something and pretend it's factual.
Bump--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 00:48, December 6, 2016 (UTC)
With regards to the Rinnegan, I still think the eye basically went down a line of devolution, weakening, whatever you want to call it. But if it makes you feel better, remove it.
In regards to the Six Paths Chakra, I don't know why it is considered it's own chakra thing. I think it was Seelentau that stated that all instances of "Six Paths Chakra" did imply that it was it's own separate thing or something.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 14:02, December 6, 2016 (UTC)
Techically, Rinnegan can still be considered a Sharingan evolution, since it's a necessary part for Rinnegan awakening. Not every Sharingan can evolve into Rinnegan (it usually must contain Indra's chakra, i.e. it's his Sharingan or that of his reincarnates), yet here can be no Rinnegan without Sharingan, to put it plain and simple. We don't know how Hagoromo achieved it in manga (already after the birth/some time afterwards, with/without Sharingan as intermediate), but anime has shown us the version that includes Rinnegan's evolution from the Sharingan as well. Rinnegan = Asura's body power + Indra's eyes power, thus it can be considered an evolution of both of the components, depending on the perspective (which component was the innate trait for the user). Ravenlot 27 (talk) 14:40, December 6, 2016 (UTC)
I'd still point out to the whole Rinne Sharingan just getting progressively worse with each generation as being enough honestly. Yes I know brain chakra makes the Sharingan and then magic turns that Sharingan into a Rinnegan. But the crux I'd argue is that in absolutely zero cases did the Rinnegan appear in anyone without first having the Sharingan first. Madara had to have the Sharingan, then years after sticking Hashirama into, his Sharingan turned into a Rinnegan. When Sasuke got Six Paths power, his Sharingan turned into a Rinnegan. In the anime (yes this happened no, you don't get to ignore it) Hagaromo started out with a Sharingan before it turned into a Rinnegan. The only one I believe does not follow this trend is that guy from the Boruto movie and I have no idea how he got Rinnegan in his hands.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 18:52, December 6, 2016 (UTC)
But my entire point is that the Sharingan doesn't turn into the Rinnegan. It's a separate doujutsu awakened by recreating Hagoromo's chakra. Let me make it easy to understand for you people, Naruto expanation style:
  • Rinne Sharingan is vodka with juice
  • Sharingan is juice
  • Rinnegan is vodka
  • juice doesn't become/transform into vodka, they are both there as separate unmixed ingredients

Sharingan is part of Indra chakra. When Asura chakra is added, the Sharingan doesn't become Rinnegan, the Rinnegan is awakened as a separate doujutsu, meaning both Sharingan and Rinnegan are present.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 04:21, December 7, 2016 (UTC)

The point is, doujutsu aren't drinks. By this logic, Sharingan also doesn't become an MS, since MS can be activated/deactivated at will and thus is a separate doujutsu. The awakening of one doujutsu of the higher class doesn't automatically make the previous doujutsu of the lower class completely unavailable, as evidenced by all the MS users and two Rinnegan users (Madara/Sasuke). Otherwise, MS must be treated as a stand-alone doujutsu and no Sharingan evolution, but it clearly isn't the case, since there is no MS without Sharingan in the first place. Rinnegan is a part of the same chain, it cannot manifest without Indra's chakra, the latter already influencing the eye nerve and turning it into Sharingan/MS. It doesn't simply require Hagoromo's chakra recreation (otherwise, Naruto would've also awakened it after receving his chakra directly), it also requires these influenced eyes or eyes' "tendency" to be influenced by special chakra which only Sharingan users, no, rather Indra's descendants, possess. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 09:20, December 7, 2016 (UTC)
Well, if you are going to completely ignore what I say and think your own version, of course you will disagree. Mangekyou Sharingan is just the highest stage of Sharingan. It's awakened with one tomoe, then second appears and then third, Mangekyou is end of the progress, think of it as a child growing up into adult. Mangekyou is part of the Sharingan Kekkei Genkai, not a separate Kekkei Genkai... so you are getting this part, but Rinnegan is different, it's NOT part of the same chain. It requires both Indra and Asura's chakras, which equal Hagoromo's chakra and I already explained to you why Naruto didn't awaken doujutsu. He simply wasn't given the same aspects of Hagoromo's chakra as Sasuke. Say I have dark brown hair and my child inherits my genes, so by your logic he/she must also have dark brown hair, well that's not how it works. Just like one's genome, Hagoromo's powers are vast, just because he shares some of his power with someone doesn't mean all of his powers are transferred to the individual. The best proofs I can give to you, that Rinnegan ISN'T part of the Sharingan line, but rather a sibling doujutsu is that Madara still could switch back to Mangekyou Sharingan, not only could, but rather he had to in order to cast Genjutsu, because Rinnegan doesn't have Sharingan powers with the exception of Sasuke's, hence it's not an evolution.

Second, Nagato couldn't use Sharingan, well why do you think that is? Because Rinnegan is freaking separate doujutsu, not an evolution of the Sharingan, not part of the same chain. Madara's eyes could be only either Sharingan and Rinnegan at a time, never both at once. Each doujutsu having different powers, they are 2 separate doujutsu which are not progression of the other. Nagato received Madara's eyes transformed into the Rinnegan, hence there is no Sharingan chakra in there, end of story.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 16:57, December 7, 2016 (UTC)

Well I believe Nagato turned the Rinnegan on, while in rage. Otherwise his parents would have noticed his weird eyes already. I think the Rinnegan didn't stay on until he killed the Iwa Chunin. So Nagato "awakened" it hence himself believe he awakened it and it was his. He had normal black eyes beforehand(madara's eyes) QuakingStar (talk) 17:16, December 7, 2016 (UTC)

He might have, yes. But my point is that there was no Sharingan chakra in Madara's eyes when they were put into Nagato, hence why Nagato used Rinnegan but never Sharingan, because the two are separate doujutsu not different stages of the same line. More evidence to my statements are that Sharingan and Rinnegan are both one of 3 great doujutsu, hence they can't be the same line. Furthermore, if Rinnegan were an evolution of the Sharingan/if Sharingan is what becomes the Rinnegan, then Obito would have awakened Rinnegan, which he didn't, it's not the Sharingan that evolves into Rinnegan, it's combination of chakras of Indra and Asura which makes it manifest.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 17:41, December 7, 2016 (UTC)
Obito said Hagoromo's elder son inherited his father's "eyes", which we now know to be the Sharingan rather than the Rinnegan or some in-between dōjutsu. He cites the stone tablet as his source for this information, meaning this was written either by Hagoromo himself or Black Zetsu, both of whom are knowledgeable on the subject — the former having owned the Rinnegan and the latter knowing exactly how to recreate it. If the Sharingan and Rinnegan truly are completely separate, this would mean Hagoromo must have had the Sharingan as well, which was never confirmed outside of the most contradictory filler arc in the whole series. When Hagoromo revealed the fact that his chakra could awaken the Rinnegan, he wasn't telling Naruto the exact instructions for doing so, just how Madara happened to do it. There may be nothing (aside from Kabuto's unreliable hypothesis) stating that the Sharingan is a requirement for obtaining the Rinnegan, but there's also nothing denying it either. So the articles should probably say it's only Orochimaru and Kabuto's theory, but it shouldn't be removed entirely unless it's truly stated somewhere, since we can only theorize.--BeyondRed (talk) 19:07, December 7, 2016 (UTC)
Well, my personal opinion is that of course Hagoromo must have had the Sharingan as well indeed, but not because of his Rinnegan, but separately. I mean, it's a contradictory notion in itself... If you people insist that Rinnegan is an evolution of Sharingan/Sharingan evolves into Rinnegan, then according to your own assumption then, Hagoromo must have had the Sharingan as well since he had Rinnegan, by yourselves declared Sharingan evolution.

Momoshiki as well had the Rinnegan, so if you declare it an evolution of Sharingan, Momoshiki must have had the Sharingan as well. I say no. I see it that Kaguya has the Rinne Sharingan, Hagoromo inherited it in a split form as both the Sharingan and Rinnegan, while Indra inherited the Sharingan, but the Rinnegan part is split in between his chakra and Asura's. So the Rinnegan isn't a Sharingan evolution, it's a sibling doujutsu and it's possible to have a Rinnegan without having a Sharingan and if a Sharingan wielder receives Rinnegan, his/her Sharingan doesn't evolve into Rinnegan, both will be separate still present doujutsu as in case of Madara.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 22:10, December 7, 2016 (UTC)

How about instead of me going on to talk contrary to beliefs of you people, rather you explain the rationale behind your assertions and provide sufficient evidence (canonical please, no filler/games etc.) that I'm wrong and Rinnegan is indeed Sharingan evolution, which is something that through analyzing everything we know and applying common sense, I strongly disagree with. Regardless of theoretical Rinnegan wielders predating Hagoromo (Momoshiki is a very unclear case) he was the first on Earth and his mother, Kaguya, had the Byakugan and Rinne Sharingan. The Rinnegan came from the Rinne Sharingan and so did the Sharingan, which Hagoromo might or might not have had, but the progression is as follows:
  • Mother = Rinne Sharingan
  • Son = Rinnegan and 'possibly' Sharingan as well
  • Grandson = Sharingan

Both appearance and power-wise, the Rinnegan is nothing like Sharingan, completely different. Yet, the Rinne Sharingan was said to hold powers of the Sharingan, it doesn't make sense for Sharingan to be Rinnegan 'devolution' / for Rinnegan to be Sharingan evolution, because it would be like this:

  • Kaguya's eye has Sharingan powers
  • Hagoromo's eyes lose Sharingan powers and have completely different powers in their stead
  • Indra's eyes lose Rinnegan powers and all of a sudden Sharingan powers from Kaguya are back

If it doesn't make it so obvious that Rinnegan and Sharingan are 2 distinct, but sibling doujutsu, descended from the Rinne Sharingan, rather than different stages of progression in same evolutionary line, then I don't know what does. Rinne Sharingan is parent and both Rinnegan and Sharingan are its children. To say that the Sharingan is a devolution of Rinnegan and it can evolve back/Rinnegan is highest form of Sharingan and Sharingan is a devolution or whatever, is completely retarded and doesn't make a bit of sense whatsoever.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 02:36, December 9, 2016 (UTC)

I would say this is relatively important, greater participation would be appreciated.
Bump--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 03:51, December 13, 2016 (UTC)

The concepts of chakra are not made clear, I know that when Asura and Indra's chakra were fused inside a person's body, the person will get the power of Hagoromo, the Rinnegan or Six Paths Sage Mode. Hagoromo simply enhanced the innate powers of Naruto and Sasuke. I think Rinnegan cannot devolve into Sharingan but Sharingan can evolve into Rinnegan, the latent powers were passed down to their children. Kaguya had Rinne Sharingan then Hagoromo had Rinnegan but he also had Sharingan genes which were passed down to Indra. Think of it like this- Rinnegan has the highest power, therefore a person born with Rinnegan will not need a lower form like Sharingan or it will not become a Sharingan. A person who has developed a Sharingan and obtained chakra to get Rinnegan can use Sharingan powers through Rinnegan for example, Sasuke casts Amaterasu through his Rinnegan. Sasuke's eye lost a tomoe when his chakra was low but it did not turn into Sharingan. Madara, on the other hand, can switch from Sharingan to Rinnegan with his fake eyes of Edo Tensei. A new requirement would be that a person must have a Sharingan along with Indra and Asura's chakra (or a perfect balance of these chakras), an individual with a Sharingan can get Rinnegan if he has Indra and Asura's chakra fused within him. In case of Naruto he may not get the Rinnegan, but if he has Sharingan implanted in him, there is a high chance that he might get Rinnegan.--Mecha Naruto (talk) 10:22, December 13, 2016 (UTC)

I disagree about that, even if Naruto got a Sharingan transplant, he would get no Rinnegan, no evidence he has the Indra part of chakra as well, Hagoromo having given power to each of them doesn't mean they got all of it or that both got the same part of his power. Also once again that only shows that Sharingan doesn't evolve into Rinnegan. Kaguya had Rinne Sharingan, Hagoromo had Rinnegan and possibly (but not confirmed in canon) Sharingan as well and Indra had Sharingan, so if anything, Rinnegan evolved into Sharingan and Sharingan becoming Rinnegan would be a 'devolution' but once more, there is no factual evidence that that's the case of what happens, beside Kabuto and Orochimaru's hypothesis which was wrong, merely an educated guess, because that's what seemingly happens. I'm quite confident that Rinnegan and Sharingan are separate doujutsu. One can have Rinnegan without prior having a Sharingan and it's not someone who has Sharingan who can get Rinnegan, it's one who has Indra's chakra specifically, who can get Rinnegan by getting Asura's chakra as well, recreating Hagoromo's chakra. Sharingan has nothing to do with Rinnegan, besides both doujutsu descending from Rinne Sharingan and Hagoromo just happening to also have power of Sharingan, either active or dormant, along with power of the Rinnegan. The only canonical evidence for Hagoromo having the Sharingan is that Indra was said to have inherited his eyes. But it's also logical that Hagoromo likely had the Sharingan, since as shown by both Madara and Sasuke, having received the Rinnegan didn't make the Sharingan power disappear. In case of Madara, it was clearly shown that both are separate doujutsu and regardless of him having had the Rinnegan, the Sharingan was still available and both doujutsu could be switch in between. In Sasuke's case, power of his left Sharingan merged with power of Rinnegan in one, almost recreating a sort of semi-Rinne Sharingan, further showing and proving that Rinnegan didn't evolve/devolve into Sharingan or Sharingan can be evolved/devolved into Rinnegan, but rather both are distinct doujutsu with common ancestor, the Rinne Sharingan and that having power of one isn't dependent on having power of the other.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 14:44, December 13, 2016 (UTC)
Bump. I see people in here pretty much stopped caring about what is and isn't in the articles and how legit it is.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 20:03, December 14, 2016 (UTC)

Check chapter 628 page 3-4; Madara uses his Rinnegan to invoke Susanoo. --Keaire (talk) 04:04, December 17, 2016 (UTC)Keaire

With this evidence, it's not possible to claim that an eye opened to Rinnegan doesn't retain the Sharingan's power at all. At best, we can call into question the abilities we haven't seen. But honestly, that's not going to get us anywhere either:
  • Nagato was the only one that used four out of six Pain Techniques.
  • Madara is the solo user of Limbo.
  • Susanoo is the only Mangekyou technique Madara revealed.

As for genjutsu, I don't recall actually seeing anyone switch off their Rinnegan. We have to be open to the possibility that Madara's clones weren't created with an active Rinnegan in the first place. Not a single clones' eye was shown until the Genjutsu, unfortunately. --Keaire (talk) 04:32, December 17, 2016 (UTC)Keaire

Madara used Susanoo without any eyes whatsoever, so you can't really say that he used power of Rinnegan to evoke it. Sasuke's Rinnegan which has the Sharingan tomoe is the only one confirmed to have Sharingan powers as well, Amaterasu and Genjutsu. If Rinnegan had Sharingan powers, there would be no need for Sasuke's fancy Rinnegan which was given Sharingan tomoe to demonstrate it can use Sharingan powers as well. The powers of the 2 doujutsu are for the most part, completely different.
  • Sharingan:
  1. Can see chakra along with its properties, even seeing it through surfaces/objects, thus also the chakra pathway system (but not the tenketsu)
  2. Clarity of perception, being able to notice all kinds of details with high precision like lip or pencil movement etc. including ability to visually keep up with and track high speed movement as well, even seeing trajectory of an object slightly before it reaches its destination, seeing it before it happens so to speak, or rather what is going to happen
  3. Ability to record/copy what it sees
  4. Genjutsu, including but not limited to: partial or complete control over target, putting target to sleep/knocking out of consciousness, reading thoughts/memories, relaying own memories to a target, putting a target under a sensory illusion (Genjutsu), removing genjutsu from the target
  5. Izanagi and Izanami
  6. Various Mangekyou powers, too many to list
  • Rinnegan:
  1. Can see chakra as well, including tenketsu, or at least the eight gates tenketsu
  2. Somehow makes it easier for the user to master nature transformations quickly, giving them potential to possibly use 'any' technique (excluding kekkei genkai it would seem)
  3. Power to transmit chakra
  4. Create Black Receivers which can be used on corpses along with the aforementioned power, giving the user full control over them along with shared sight and them being able to use the user's powers, while used on a living target, it is paralyzed
  5. Immunity to Infinite Tsukuyomi and possibly any Genjutsu? Although the latter is just speculation
  6. Power of attractive or repulsive force
  7. Power to mechanize one's body
  8. Power to read one's mind by extracting his/her/its soul, killing the target in the process
  9. Power to summon all kinds of species of creatures
  10. Power to absorb chakra either directly from a target or create a shield which nullifies chakra that comes into contact with it
  11. Power to summon 'King of Hell' who can extract a target's soul/life force if lying and store them, being able to release them later, it can also be used to heal others
  12. Power to revive the dead
  13. Chakra chains
  14. Power to summon and control the Demonic Statue for whatever reason
  15. Unique, user specific powers such as: Limbo, Amenotejikara, portals into other dimensions, ability to release an attack with greater force after first absorbing it, turning a living target into an edible mini chakra fruit

So as you can see, for the most part, Sharingan and Rinnegan don't share powers and Sasuke is the only one who has Rinnegan with Sharingan powers.

The Rinne Sharingan, ancestor to both doujutsu, while not stated or said to possess any specific Rinnegan powers, was stated to possess Sharingan powers. But it can use Infinite Tsukuyomi, which was called a Rinnegan technique twice, possibly a vague way of saying that it indeed has Rinnegan powers as well, not to mention the affected victims have Rinnegan reflected in their eyes and Rinnegan is immune to Infinite Tsukuyomi, thus Rinne Sharingan links both Sharingan and Rinnegan together. Because of that, the Rinne Sharingan didn't evolve/devolve or whatever into Rinnegan and then the Rinnegan didn't evolve/devolve into Sharingan, likewise the Sharingan cannot be evolved/devolved into the Rinnegan and the Rinnegan cannot be evolved/devolved into the Rinne Sharingan. Rather, the Rinne Sharingan evolved/devolved into both Rinnegan and Sharingan and one of either doesn't and can't become the other, but as shown by Sasuke to a partial extent, both Rinnegan and Sharingan can be merged together to semi-recreate the Rinne Sharingan.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 10:25, December 17, 2016 (UTC)

There is a panel of Obito right under Madara's. Obito attacked with Kamui at the same time. Close-up, speed-lines, sound effect and all. Not sure how you're interpret those panels, but it's clear that Madara started Susanoo with his Rinnegan. The fact that he used Susanoo without eyes (and Itachi after his eyes loss their light) in no way debunks what we literally saw Madara do in chapter 628. --Klue (talk) 14:37, December 17, 2016 (UTC)Keaire
Except since Susanoo can get used without eyes, the eyes themselves don't really start Susanoo. Just because there is a close up on his face on which he happens to have the Rinnegan active and then Susanoo appears doesn't mean the Rinnegan was what used Susanoo, since again, eyes are not needed at all.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 15:18, December 17, 2016 (UTC)
Except Sasuke's Susanoo is eye made. Kishi didn't do a close-up on Madara's eye to tell the reader that he was not invoking his ocular power from his eye, while having Obito do just that, lol. Susanoo is usable with and without eyes, for reasons we will never know. Susanoo isn't the only one; Sasuke is Petra Path capable even after his Rinnegan entered an inoperable state — looks eerily similar to Madara's chakra absorption skill when he didn't have his Rinnegan. --Klue (talk) 20:07, December 17, 2016 (UTC)Klue
Again, not all eye techniques require having an eye/eyes, so you can't say they were used through them. Something like Amaterasu for example, requires eyes, because the combustion starts wherever the user focuses his line of sight. Kamui most likely as well requires eyes, at least the long range version, because space bends where the user focuses his sight on. Susanoo doesn't require looking at anything to use and the eyes aren't source of the power themselves, it's the brain releasing special chakra into the eyes, the eyes are only a conduit. Again, it's possible Sasuke as well would be able to still use Susanoo eyeless.... even then, saying the Susanoo would be eye-made isn't technically wrong, since the eyes are conduit of the Sharingan and Rinnegan powers and those are known to be doujutsu. So as the manga has clearly demonstrated, eye powers are still present and usable to a limited extent even without the eyes and they are called eyes powers not because the eyes are the source of them, but because they are used through them most of the time. Second, we know that Susanoo is a Sharingan power and can be used without eyes, so you can't attribute it to Rinnegan being able to use Susanoo just because the user happens to have it activated at the time.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 08:25, December 18, 2016 (UTC)

Any of the 'big fish' having an opinion, like BeyondRed, Seel etc. anyone who has extensive knowledge and interest in Naruto lore.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 14:52, December 20, 2016 (UTC)

Bump, not going to let this one slide unless it's resolved. In the very least, it should be removed that Rinnegan evolved/devolved into Sharingan is a fact and that when a Sharingan user gets Rinnegan, it's the Sharingan evolving/devolving into Rinnegan. There is no evidence for that besides Orochimaru and Kabuto's hypothesis which we actually know to be mostly untrue.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 09:36, December 22, 2016 (UTC)
In other words, not until you get the results you desire. Makes sense.
Can you point me to the offending passage? In the article itself, I only see the Kabuto hypothesis using the term "evolve". If you find the passage in the Sharingan article under the topic "Evolution" offending, then I can offer less help with that unless we just change the section into "Transformation" or something stupid like that.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 13:18, December 22, 2016 (UTC)
But that's my point, what and where is the evidence that Sharingan changes into Rinnegan? Besides a hypothesis which is not even correct. Sharingan usually starts with 1 tomoe, then as it matures it gets 2nd, 3rd... then Mangekyou Sharingan can be achieved, Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan is an artificial thing, so technically it still is just a Magnekyou, but what makes people think that Rinnegan is the end of the Sharingan line/final stage or whatever?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 13:22, December 22, 2016 (UTC)
By Wrynn's Honor...1) The only place that states directly Sharingan evolves into the Rinnegan is the part that specifically states that this is [Kabuto]'s hypothesis. At no point does that say it's fact. The only other place is in the "Evolution" section of the Sharingan where the Madara's Sharingan did turn into Rinnegan, because unless brain chakra gave him an entirely new set of eyes, his eyes did transform.
So ignoring all this back and forth which is quite frankly pointless, what do you actually want? The hypothesis phrase being removed and/or the entire mention of the Rinnegan removed from the Sharingan page? Because that is quite literally the only thing I can think of to end this pointless back and forth between what the Rinnegan is and isn't.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 11:12, December 23, 2016 (UTC)
Removed from Sharingan page. Also Madara's Sharingan didn't turn Rinnegan, Madara's eyes turned Rinnegan, that's the difference. The Sharingan brain chakra didn't change into Rinnegan brain chakra, there is evidence they are separate since Madara used Sharingan after getting Rinnegan, it doesn't get replaced.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 14:07, December 23, 2016 (UTC)
Unfortunately, you aren't going to get the Rinnegan mentioned removed from the Sharingan page. Don't care if you believe Madara suddenly got two pairs of eyes floating around his now dead skull, until we actually see Madara with four eyes, his current set had to "become" the Rinnegan. To bring this to a close, I am changing the "Evolution" to "Tansformation". This won't change because this constant back and forth about brain chakra fails to justify one very critical fact: these characters only have 2 eyes. They became Sharingan and then became Rinnegan. If you don't like the idea of Sharingan evolving into Rinnegan fine, you will accept that their eyes, which were Sharingan transformed into Rinnegan. And we aren't going to continue into a discussion on what "transformations" means, because at that point you are arguing for the sake of arguing.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 14:37, December 23, 2016 (UTC)
Um, 4 eyes? The brain chakra is what makes them Sharingan, otherwise they are just eyes. They can be turned on and off you know, they are not Sharingan all the time.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 14:58, December 23, 2016 (UTC)
What I mean by that is that an Uchiha's eyes are just ordinary eyes until the Sharingan gets awakened and the doujutsu is activated. If Madara's Sharingan or Rinnegan weren't activated, they would be just ordinary eyes and they can be Sharingan or Rinnegan only either at a time.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 11:51, December 24, 2016 (UTC)
And the same could be said about literally every physical kekkei genkai; they are normal until they get turned on. What that does not change is that under no circumstances have we seen a normal eye become a Rinnegan. It either appeared as a Rinnegan (as is the case of the Rinne Sharingan for Kaguya and Madara) or went from Sharingan-variant to Rinnegan (as is the case Hagaromo and Sasuke). You may not like the thought of eye evolution or de-evolution, but that does not change the fact that, until we get something more specific than a explanation of the Sharingan's' manifestation, what we do know about the Rinnegan is that a Sharingan can to "Rinnegan" once you add some Asura Chakra to the mix. Is the wiki saying thats the only way a Rinnegan can appear? No. But so far, has that been the only way we've seen it appear outside of apparently being born with it? Yes.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 03:35, December 25, 2016 (UTC)
Momoshiki says hello. Did he also have a Sharingan before it changed into Rinnegan? Lets exclude anime filler completely here, but the canon doesn't specify if Hagoromo was born with Rinnegan, neither does it say that he didn't have Sharingan as well. And again, it's not 'Sharingan + Asura chakra = Rinnegan' it's Indra's chakra + Asura's chakra = Rinnegan. Only Indra incarnates and possibly Asura incarnates if they were to get Indra's chakra, can awaken the Rinnegan. Sharingan in no way capable to become Rinnegan or the other way around.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 08:58, December 25, 2016 (UTC)
I couldn't spell his name but he's an example of "appeared as a Rinnegan". I'm not going to exclude the anime because the anime is the only one that actually provides an example beyond "He had it". But even if I were, he'd still fall under the same category of "Just had it." Keep in mind, at no time does anywhere on this wiki state "To get the Rinnegan, the Sharingan must evolve." Just that "The Sharingan can turn into the Rinnegan if X-factors are met". Which again, you may not like but until we see something that 100% tells us otherwise, we go by what we actually see.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 16:48, December 25, 2016 (UTC)
But again, the Sharingan doesn't turn into Rinnegan. Both Madara and Sasuke still have Sharingan available post-Rinnegan acquisition, there is no change of the former into latter, they are both available separately, in Sasuke's case at the same time. As explained by Tobirama, Sharingan is special Uchiha brain chakra affecting the optic nerve, changing the eyes into what we call 'Sharingan' best demonstrated by Obito, when Kakashi's very own eyes transformed into Sharingan while 'possessed' by Obito's ghost or whatever. So it's been proven that Uchiha eyes while the doujutsu is turned off, are no different from ordinary eyes and even ordinary eyes such as Kakashi's can become Sharingan if said special brain chakra is inserted. So again, it's not Sharingan turning into Rinnegan, since the eyes are Sharingan only when the special Uchiha brain chakra is released into them, it's eyes turning into Rinnegan when chakras of Asura and Indra are combined and even at that point, the Sharingan doesn't become unusable and replaced, it stays along with the Rinnegan.

To further prove this Sharingan evolving into Rinnegan is nonsense, Obito's or Danzo's Sharingan didn't transform into Rinnegan from Hashirama's cells which have Asura's chakra, that's because Asura's chakra doesn't transform Sharingan into Rinnegan to begin with, only those with Indra's chakra, following their acquisition of Asura's chakra as well, awaken the Rinnegan.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 17:18, December 25, 2016 (UTC)

Bump--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 11:43, December 30, 2016 (UTC)
Until such a time we see a Uchiha's normal, non-Sharingan eye go straight from Normal to Rinnegan without ever touching the Sharingan stage, this can continue. Until you'll just have to settle with the "We've seen it go from Sharingan to Rinnegan" before. No I don't care to go over brain chakra anymore.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 18:15, December 30, 2016 (UTC)
We have seen Sasuke use Rinnegan without having his Sharingan active--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 20:52, December 30, 2016 (UTC)
Ulti, I sincerely am not arguing just to piss you off, all I would like if you can is for you to once again explain how you see the thing and why do you think me wrong, just to make sure we both actually understand our point of view for certain before we disagree--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 13:45, January 1, 2017 (UTC)
You took major issue with the article stating that the Sharingan evolves to the Rinnegan. In the article itself, the only mention of evolution was Kabuto's hypothesis. When that was pointed out, it then went into the Sharingan doesn't change into the Rinnegan, which I take issue with because we quite literally saw that very thing happened (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li3_cViBKQE) and the argument against this is that because brain chakra makes an Uchiha's eyes become a Sharingan then it's impossible for the eyes to ever become something else. Which would be fine, if we ever actually saw that happen. In every instance of the Rinnegan appearing from people who did not eat Chakra Fruit, that person had Sharingan first. Therefore, there Sharingan eyes would end up turning into Rinnegan, unless this entire argument is based on the assumption that before the Rinnegan turns out, the Uchiha first turns off the Sharingan, drains the eye of chakra, then refills the eye with Rinnegan chakra. Which we know they don't have to do because we saw Madara's eye turn straight into the Rinnegan. In no way does this mean that the Sharingan can't change into a Rinnegan, and hell in most cases that seems like the most consistent way to actually get it.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 17:39, January 1, 2017 (UTC)
About the eyes changing, cursed seal for example changes Sasukes's eyes into yellow and black and when Sharingan is activated, they change into Sharingan right away without becoming normal eyes first, that in no way means that cursed seals eyes are a previous stage of Sharingan. For the rest, your point of view I get it is that Rinnegan chakra is the same Sharingan brain chakra but with Asura spice added into it, right? Well the problem I have with that is that both Obito and Danzo got Asura spice yet no Rinnegan got awakened. Only eyes of Indra' incarnates can awaken Rinnegan with Asura spice and possibly also Asura incarnates could awaken it with Indra spice. I find it quite unlikely that Asura spice would be so selective as to transform only Indra's Sharingan but no other Sharingan. Furthermore, we saw Madara use Sharingan post Rinnegan acquisition. If Rinnegan chakra were same Sharingan brain chakra just with Asura spice, the only way to use Sharingan afterwards would be to take away Asura spice and put it back in, in order to use Rinnegan again. Also Sharingan, also known as eye that reflect the heart or whatever, the brain chakra has to do with feeling pain from loss of a loved one and similar related emotional trauma. There is no evidence the Rinnegan is 'emo' eyes as well, this the most logical conclusion is that Sharingan brain emo chakra and Rinnegan chakra are different since the former has to do with emotions, pain from loss of loved ones etc. While there's not quite enough evidence to suggest the same for Rinnegan.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 21:17, January 1, 2017 (UTC)
That's the other thing. You are also looking at this in purely absolutes. I know the requirements that involve making the Rinnegan. I know that every Sharingan user can't awaken the Rinnegan. But I also know, because we've bloody seen it, is that a Sharingan can turn into a Rinnegan if all the right criteria is met. Nobody ever said that's the only and final way to get the Rinnegan, but godfuckingdamnit it sure as hell is one.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 21:32, January 1, 2017 (UTC)
So Madara switching from Mangekyou into Rinnegan is somehow evidence of Sharingan becoming Rinnegan.... We also saw him or one of his clones switch back to Mangekyou Sharingan, guess I should take that as evidence of Rinnegan becoming Sharingan then. Why is it so hard to even entertain the idea that they are separate for you? Special emo brain chakra released into eyes = Sharingan. Asura+Indra chakra = Rinnegan. I have no idea if there is some special Rinnegan brain chakra released into the eyes or if it's an actual permanent transformation to the eyes unlike Sharingan which can be turned off, but I sure as hell know that Rinnegan is unrelated to Sharingan chakra and we have seen this with Sasuke, where his left eye can be both Rinnegan and Sharingan at once and when he deactivates his Sharingan or it does when he drops low on chakra, only the tomoe disappear, the Sharingan part, while the Rinnegan remains. If Rinnegan were part Sharingan, the entire eye would get switched off not just the tomoe--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 21:59, January 1, 2017 (UTC)

yellow/gold Rinnegan

Considering that Momoshiki's Byakugan as well received the same color change, does this really count as different form?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 14:45, December 26, 2016 (UTC)

It's obviously artistic license, but to my knowledge, we include colour covers in articles, no? • Seelentau 愛 17:41, December 26, 2016 (UTC)
There's a yellow/gold Byakugan too now, you know. Does that count as a different form or...? (Legitimate question, not mockery or anything). Most likely artistic license. WindStar7125 Divine Mangekyō Sharingan VolteMetalic 20:26, December 26, 2016 (UTC)

Nature transformations

Since I'm obviously not going to convince certain individuals such as Ulti that Rinnegan is not a stage of Sharingan, even though there is no proof of that and with everything we have come to know and see now, it doesn't even make sense, so I want to ask, was it stated in a databook that Rinnegan makes one master all 5 nature transformations? I know Nagato mastered them all at a young age, 10 I believe? But was that ever attributed to the Rinnegan?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 13:21, January 1, 2017 (UTC)

This I believe is based on Jiraiya's reminiscing on the Nagato and the Rinnegan, stating that with it, Nagato was able to master all 6 Nature Transformations. I believe it was a databook that clarified that it was 5 but stated the Rinengan did have that bonus.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 17:29, January 1, 2017 (UTC)
That's all I wanted to know if it's backed up by manga or databooks, good then, I asked because I recall Seel saying it's untrue at one point.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 20:49, January 1, 2017 (UTC)
Never said that. It's untrue that the Rinnegan grants the natures. • Seelentau 愛 22:22, January 1, 2017 (UTC)
What does it do then?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 03:30, January 2, 2017 (UTC)
It makes the learning process faster. • Seelentau 愛 11:49, January 2, 2017 (UTC)
Does it specify how or is that all it says?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 12:25, January 2, 2017 (UTC)
That's all, folks. • Seelentau 愛 21:02, January 2, 2017 (UTC)