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Talk:Orochimaru's Juinjutsu

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Revision as of 18:57, September 29, 2013 by Taynio (Talk | contribs)

Enhanced Kenkei Genkai Abilities

Does the cursed seal in level 2 enhance the sharingan's abilities or not? If it does what does it enhance? Cooltamerboy 07:24, 29 January 2009 (UTC).

The Curse Seal 2 enhances the Sharingan's "Genjutsu" ability. At least, its ability to counter Genjutsu. Sasuke used the CS2 to break out of Itachi's Tsukuyomi Genjutsu. He also used the CS2 to counter and reverse Orochimaru's "Soul Transfer Dimension" Genjutsu (like what Itachi did to Kurunai). Though that could have been a Ninjutsu, in which chase the CS2 also enhances the Sharingan's "Jutsu Analyzing" ability. =)

Could it enhance his sharingan's (without the genjutsu abilitity) other abilities or not?

If you mean can the CS2 enhance the Sharingan's ability to see chakra (Sasuke vs. Deidara), the ability to predict an opponent's movements (pick any Sasuke fight), and the ability to analyze and copy Jutsus (a maybe against Oro), then I'd say yes. In terms of enhancing the Sharingan's eye genjutsu abilities, the CS2 definitely does that.

Does the cursed seal 2 make the sharingan more powerful or not?

Well, judging from the Sound 4 and Kimimaru, all their abilities were enhanced/more powerful when activating their CS2. So ya, I can't see why Sasuke's Sharingan abilities wouldn't be enhanced/more powerful as well, based on his past fights.

If you want to see how a Cursed Seal affects the Sharingan in stages, check out the Naruto v Sasuke fight at the Valley of the End. Sasuke's Sharingan gets progressively stronger throughout the fight w/ Naruto, and that comes from 1st fully developing it, then activating level 1, and finally level 2. Just before each stage(when Naruto bested him) he comments on his inability to counter Naruto, then afterwords says how much better it is.Memsochet 14:55, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Cursed Seal part of Orochimaru's power

Does the cursed seal use any part of orochimaru's power, and was orochimaru absorbed into the cursed seal or sasuke? Cooltamerboy 15:28, 25 March 2009 (UTC).

No, although the Cursed Seals are linked to Orochimaru, they do not seem to use his power.
Orochimaru was "absorbed" into Sasuke's body. The Cursed Seal had nothing to do with it (except for, possibly, making the planned take-over easier). --ShounenSuki (talk | contribs) 15:55, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Didn't the cursed get more powerful when orochimaru was absorbed. And how do you mean by linked to orochimaru? And how did orochimaru refine the enzyme to make it cursed seal? Cooltamerboy 16:29, 25 March 2009 (UTC).

No. Orochimaru can at the very least make the Cursed Seals hurt. No-one knows. --ShounenSuki (talk | contribs) 17:17, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Kabuto

Kabuto can do this too, don´t he? Because he used on Team Guren --Nara Shikamaru (talk) 01:31, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Since we haven't actually seen him perform the technique we can't list him. Team Guren came from a prison where most prisoners had a cursed seal. Jacce | Talk 04:58, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

disadvantages

if the curse mark does erode the user's mind and body, has there been a person that has been an example of that?—This unsigned comment was made by 75.3.195.226 (talkcontribs) .

Sasuke for one, and Tayuya mentioned during sound fours fight against Sasuke that the seal has eaten away much of their free will. Jacce | Talk 04:50, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
I wouldn't call this a disadvantage, though. In fact, it's basically what the Cursed Seal is for. --ShounenSuki (talk | contribs) 14:02, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Split up

I was thinking of creating a kekkei genkai page for Jūgo, and splitting off some of the information from here. Simant (talk) 05:22, January 17, 2010 (UTC)

Wearers

Does it say in some book that Bakuto and Tetsuru had a cursed seal? They came from the southern prison, so it seams unlikely to me. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 09:12, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Variations image

So uh, you guys really see the aspect of color as a more important factor that to the missing 2 front line variations in the manga image. For example the lack of detail on the arms of two of the remaining variations and missing facial details... but if thats what you guys want. SimAnt 21:24, July 20, 2011 (UTC)

To be fair and honest, I remember you reverting the image change once but I didn't know it was for the reason you stated that the manga image was kept. But it's a good thing that we have slideshow function yes?--Cerez365 Hyūga Symbol 21:30, July 20, 2011 (UTC)

workings

Does not this give also regenerative abilities by speeding up the cell reproduction ? Also is not the notable change in personality attributed to Orochimaru's chakra ? --Elveonora (talk) 23:40, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

When did they show regernerative abilities O.o? And that last bit could be because of Jūgō.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 23:42, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Sasuke's wing grew back and after he lost CS he had to go and fix/heal his wounds. With CS it seems he healed faster. Killer B almost killed him because he had no CS, also Karin had to heal him often. In part 1 and part 2 before Itachi removed it, he seemed ... invincible. Like Naruto's hits with Kyubi chakra doing almost nothing to him. Also something about Cursed Seal and regeneration was mentioned in anime. --Elveonora (talk) 23:54, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

When did his wings grow back? In chapter 358 he lost one, which was replaced with snakes in the next chapter. During his fight against Itachi Sasuke only showed one wing, which was burned by Amateratsu in chapter 390. In the remaining chapters until Orochi is sealed, no wings are seen when he is in level 2. In chapter 365 he mentions that having absorbed Orochi increased his healing powers. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 08:21, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

You are right, I'm sorry. Thought both wings showed up later. Buth should not it grow back when he used Body Shedding ? --Elveonora (talk) 20:16, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

From what I can see: he has only one wing that is hit by Amateratsu in chapter 390, just before he is using body shedding. He continuous to use the cursed seal level 2 in chapter 390-392, until Orochi is sealed in the end of chapter 392, but I don't see any wings. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 20:30, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

Related to Sage Mode

Is it somehow related then ? (as of latest chapter) Jugo's clan has power to draw on Natural Energy. This is made from Jugo's body, so basically Cursed Mark = pseudo-Sage Mode ? --Elveonora (talk) 16:52, March 21, 2012 (UTC)

Interesting theory. The only problem I have with it is that the article (as well as some characters) have said that the seal just forces chakra from the user's body, which contradicts what Jugo does. Maybe it's only the first level that does that but not the second? 199.5.204.100 (talk) 17:08, March 21, 2012 (UTC)

That's why I'm discussing it. I think it should be mentioned or something. But don't know how to word it. --Elveonora (talk) 17:13, March 21, 2012 (UTC)

I doubt we can really do anything with the information until we get more details. I would say hold on to the theory until later as it seems like a theory for now. 199.5.204.100 (talk) 17:28, March 21, 2012 (UTC)

Everything that could be said without adding speculation has been added already. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:06, March 22, 2012 (UTC)

So let me do a summary:

  • Jugo's clan has a Kekkei Genkai (most likely it is) which allows them to passively absorb Natural Energy, and they get "semi/pseudo-Sage Mode" with a side effects of bodily mutations ... it's unknown if it is a direct result from the absorption of Natural Energy/or their KGG, but they happen to go into a "berserk state" and sometimes are able to control the "urge" and in other occasions they are not for unknown reasons.

Just a note: [It's possible they have 2 Kekkei Genkai, one that allows them to absorb the energies around them, and an other that causes them to mutate (no idea which or what makes them mad) ... the reasons why I think this are because Jugo has shown his "crazy side" a few times without using his powers, and often didn't go berserk while using them. End of note, just an observation and view]

  • The Curse Mark gives it's users the abilities of Jugo clan's Kekkei Genkai to absorb natural energies along with a modified mutant gene through the seal, and Orochimaru's chakra.
  • As similar to Sage Mode, a user also has to have high chakra capacity, as the mark drains out the user's chakra, while giving him/her Orochimaru's own chakra and Natural Energy, granting powers akin to those of Sage Mode states.

Note 2: [Sasuke could temporary use the full extent of the mark, without any physical changes, another similarity like between Imperfect and Perfect Sage Modes] Note 3: [Sasuke's chakra had Orochimaru suppressed, but has used the remnant chakra to go into the Curse Mark state again thus with no chakra of his own to hold Orochimaru back. A reference to that the mark drains a user's chakra (is given) but also gives another chakras in return, a proof is that Sasuke had handful of chakra to hold Orochimaru and it was enough to go into the Curse Mark state and when it ended, he didn't die. Thus as long as one has enough chakra for the state, it will drain it but give new chakras and more in return, supported also with the "3rd Chidori in a day" thing]

  • With a prolonged usage, it corrodes both the user's mind and body, and making him/her vulnerable to Orochimaru's influence, likely due to his chakra being present.

I think this should be all ... bring up this due to several recent edits to the article, just to check what parts sound speculative and if we have enough references for the way it is now.--Elveonora (talk) 20:23, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

Sounds about right. Should the Cursed Seal's first state still be referred to as something that simply forces more chakra from the user's body, or should we assume that it is natural energy as well? Also, there's a possibility that the Orochimaru chakra within the seal is just used for maintaining it or something to that extent, rather than actual chakra that is used by the seal's owner.--BeyondRed (talk) 13:41, July 10, 2012 (UTC)


The actual workings appear to be:

  1. the curse mark has a Jugo's modified mutation enzyme in it and that's the reason for the transformations, and it draws Natural Energies from around.
  2. Orochimaru's chakra (and somehow his mind) is mixed with the energies to maintain the state, granting "semi/pseudo-Sage Mode" enhancements.
  3. but the user's own chakra is drained in the process (so if one doesn't have high enough chakra capacity, he/she will die) as well as a repayment for power, also it corrupts the user mind and body and if that happens, Orochimaru is likely to gain control over such person.

Explains why Sasuke's chakra was "foul/dark" (being that of Sage Mode Orochimaru's), also it's not to be considered Sage Mode since the users have no control of Natural Energy themselves.--Elveonora (talk) 14:17, July 10, 2012 (UTC)

Classification?

Orochimaru feeds his senjutsu chakra into the cursed seal, and this sagechakra is given to the user. Then shouldn't this technique classified as senjutsu?Undominanthybrid (talk) 10:03, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

Not really, Naruto performing a Shadow Clone Technique in Sage Mode or with Kurama's chakra doesn't make it either a Senjutsu nor a Tailed Beast Skill.--Elveonora (talk) 18:00, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

Really? That's your argument? Orochimaru said it was made of his Senjutsu chakra, and just recently revealed that their origins were Senjutsu as well. The cursed seal works directly using Senjutsu chakra. I know its not convenient for you, but convenience is not what we're looking for here. They're obviously a type of Senjutsu technique. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 22:08, September 27, 2013 (UTC)
Does Orochimaru biting someone to grant them magical tattoo require him to use and/or give Senjutsu chakra? We don't know if he uses Senjutsu chakra to perform the technique and in theory, he could decide to do the fuuinjutsu and enzyme part but without giving senjutsu chakra. The whole point is that how does sealing senjutsu chakra into people make it senjutsu?--Elveonora (talk) 12:16, September 28, 2013 (UTC)
So now you're backing off of what you said in the sage transformation talk page? Wow, you're losing credibility really fast. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 16:02, September 28, 2013 (UTC)
There is no credibility in speculation. Ever. Its Senjutsu, and that's that. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 18:43, September 28, 2013 (UTC)

@Mr. Credible, I'm not backing off ****head, I'm posing a question, learn to read, I again don't necessarily agree or disagree. @Foxie, enjoy having the last word, you truly delight in that. But please, stop with this whole "I'm superior" elitist attitude of yours, there are other editors beside you. So I get it you ignore the topic because Orochimaru said so and that's just it and nothing further has to be said abount it, am I correct? Well that's nice. For the last time, this may be as much senjutsu as Flying Thunder God Technique is fuuinjutsu.--Elveonora (talk) 22:55, September 28, 2013 (UTC)

If this is senjutsu, then someone please explain to me, what is stopping us from adding all of Jūgram's techniques as senjutsu techniques? --Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 23:01, September 28, 2013 (UTC)
Despite it being repeatedly stated in the manga in almost every way possible? I think that should end it.Who is Jugram? Juugo? If so, then I personally do not see an issue calling them senjutsu as they technically are. I think there comes a time when we need to stop boxing things in and accept that they can be multi-faceted. We don't understand how the entire world of Naruto works, nor our own. Why can't something be a senjutsu juinjutsu? --Taynio (talk) 23:29, September 28, 2013 (UTC)
I have to say I agree. At first I thought it too presumptive to call Jūgram's techniques senjutsu but it was basically said in the last chapter and we really do need to accpt that not everything will fit conveniently. I'm just saying if this is senjutsu then all of his techniques are.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 23:48, September 28, 2013 (UTC)
I see nothing wrong with calling the juinjutsu and Jugo's techniques senjutsu. Jugo's techniques are based on his ability to draw in nature energy, and it has been stated multiple times that he is using senjutsu chakra. If Jugo is constantly drawing in nature energy and making senjutsu chakra, then his techniques would always be senjutsu. Orochimaru also couldn't perform his juinjutsu without his senjutsu chakra, so senjutsu is imperative to the technique. I would think the only thing that makes it debatable is if there is a normal ninjutsu equivalent to the techniques, which for these two there isn't. Omega64 (talk) 02:27, September 29, 2013 (UTC)
Well i also agree with naming Jugo's techniques as senjutsu...anything that draws natural energy and makes senjutsu chakra, should also be senjutsu...if the seals generate senjutsu chakra...you catch my drift...however this poses as an interesting dillema...those who have the cursed seals...the Sound Four, Kimimaro, Sasuke, etc...we'll eventually have to consider listing some of their techniques as senjutsu as well, since some them were used under the influence of their respective cursed seals. One example...Sasuke's black Chidori...we know it was created using the special chakra of the Cursed Seal of Heaven...now we know said chakra was senjutsu...Darksusanoo (talk) 03:08, September 29, 2013 (UTC)
EDIT: Cerez-Sempai, you've been reading too much Bleach, if you're mixing Jugo and Jugram. :D Darksusanoo (talk) 03:10, September 29, 2013 (UTC)
Well here's the thing, if a ninjutsu can be done independent of using senjutsu chakra I really don't feel it should be classified as senjutsu. I mean just because Naruto's Rasengan in Sage Mode uses senjutsu doesn't make it a senjutsu technique, its a ninjutsu technique. I think the bare bones of whether it should be classified as senjutsu or not is based on whether or not senjutsu is 100% required for the technique. Techniques like Orochimaru's Juinjutsu or Jugo's Sage Transformation require senjutsu, they can't be done without it. Indeed all of the Curse Marks should be listed as senjutsu, but not necessarily all the Sound Four's techniques and the like. I mean we are not 100% senjutsu is required for their techniques or they were simply using their Curse Marks for a chakra boost. Also Sasuke's "Flapping Chidori", as it once was called, is the result of a lot of senjutsu chakra focused in the Chidori, it was also a one time thing. Chidori like Rasengan shouldn't be listed as senjutsu because it can be produced independently of senjutsu. Omega64 (talk) 03:19, September 29, 2013 (UTC)
Senjutsu was introduced as a specific set of techniques, but seems to also refer to any normal techniques enhanced with senjutsu chakra. This goes back to the old issue of Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan and Sage Art: Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan, where the former technique was listed as a senjutsu in the databook but then later used by "base" Naruto, and the latter technique seems to just be the former with an optional prefix added (like "Ninja Art", although "Sage Art" is actually left in databook entries.) The same goes for Sage Art: Big Ball Rasengan being larger than the first Big Ball Rasengan we saw, but the same size as the Big Ball Rasengan used for Big Ball Spiralling Serial Zone Spheres.--BeyondRed (talk) 04:08, September 29, 2013 (UTC)
  • "If Jugo is constantly drawing in nature energy and making senjutsu chakra, then his techniques would always be senjutsu":

And here it goes, anything he does would have to be listed as such, even him farting or punching someone's face, It's a genetic condition, not brand of sage techniques/arts taught to him by animals or what shit, that's what I'm getting at.

  • "Orochimaru also couldn't perform his juinjutsu without his senjutsu chakra, so senjutsu is imperative to the technique":

This is what I argue about since the start, we DON'T know if Senjutsu chakra is mandatory to him biting someone's neck granting a tattoo. Senjutsu chakra is only definitely required for the true/real purposes of him doing so (power boost, brainwashing/mind control, his own revival through it etc.), but if it could be done without it, then the classification wouldn't be justified. The example again, Flying Thunder God Technique doesn't require the sealing formulas/marks on people, since now we know chakra contact alone just does it and the purpose of it is space-time travel, not sealing and so optional steps are just optional, guess that's why it isn't classified as a Fuuinjutsu/Juinjutsu because the technique covers the "flying" part.

Orochimaru In theory may be capable of transmitting normal/ordinary non-senjutsu chakra with this very same technique instead and the tattoo part may not require any senjutsu chakra to be performed.

@Darksusanoo, yes, Flapping Chidori or what **** it's called is a Senjutsu, but I don't think it's a separate technique, or is it? But since "senjutsu: insert x size Rasengan" have articles, then maybe we should reconsider...

For Jugo's Sage Transformation being Senjutsu or not, that is a separate isseue/topic altogether and belongs into a different talkpage and an already existant topic, this one is exclusively for Cursed Seal Transformations/Orochimaru's Juinjutsu--Elveonora (talk) 10:57, September 29, 2013 (UTC)

TheUltimate3 feels that all this can be cleared up if we rework the senjutsu page itself, and make note that any chakra based on natural energy is using senjutsu and then make the three known applications of it known: Controlled absorbing of natural energy which leads to Sage Mode, uncontrolled absorbing that is Sage Transformation, and Orochimaru's cursed seals that convert a subjects chakra into natural energy (how this crap happens I don't care).
Would save a lot of time.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 15:48, September 29, 2013 (UTC)
Agreed. Not even going to read the profanity-filled rant above, and just say Ultimate's solution seems perfectly reasonable and logical. A simple rewording of the description section should do just fine in that case. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 18:41, September 29, 2013 (UTC)
Well I am all for the addition of these exceptions to the use of senjutsu. Let's wait a bit tough for persons who might want to chime in on the change to do so.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 18:54, September 29, 2013 (UTC)
@Elv That's just the point. It wouldn't have the same effect as juugo's transformation if it didn't have senjutsu. It simply wouldn't work. There would be no purpose in the cursed seal. Ergo, it's a senjutsu because it's required and it is its sole and explicit purpose.
For techniques that only have senjutsu added and aren't called "Sage Art blah blah", articles should have a separate section that mention the formation of the technique with senjutsu. Or simply make an entirely separate article for it, albeit it'd be a waste because there wouldn't be enough information. But I personally think we should list techniques that have been combined with senjutsu because that's what this is: a place for information, and we need to share that information. Whether it be including senjutsu in the categorization or simply having a note of it somewhere in the article. We need to provide as much information as possible, and excluding any is counter-productive.
I like Ult's solution for the senjutsu article itself. --Taynio (talk) 18:57, September 29, 2013 (UTC)

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