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SPECULATION WILL BE REMOVED

Amaterasu

When was it stated in the manga that having Susanoo and Tsukuyomi automatically meant you had Amaterasu??? cause Madara and Obito both claimed to be able to use Tsukuyomi, and while it is true that both Sasuke and Itachi were able to use all 3 jutsu, Tobi showed surprise at Sasuke using Susanoo, even though he knew Sasuke had Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi....... Madara wasn't shown using Amaterasu yet so isn't him knowing just speculation??? those 3 jutsu being a package deal was never once stated as fact...... or am I wrong, cause if so, what chapter??? --Deathmailrock (talk) 08:27, May 2, 2013 (UTC)

It was stated in a databook.~ UltimateSupreme 08:36, May 2, 2013 (UTC)

About Jutsu

This is mistaken or what? but I didn't see Susano'o as Madara Technique at Jutsu List, please fix it.203.201.173.210 (talk) 04:52, May 5, 2013 (UTC)

Infobox bug. No infobox is currently showing jutsu characters have only used in the manga, but that have already appeared in the anime being used by someone else. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 04:56, May 5, 2013 (UTC)

all paths techniques

When Madara was about to train Obito, he told him he is gonna teach six paths technique, meaning shouldn't we list him as a user also of others besides Preta and Deva? Not to mention he ordered Obito to use that black rod meaning Outer one too--Elveonora (talk) 13:09, May 9, 2013 (UTC)

I pondered on your inquiry for a while, and come to think of it, I agree. I mean, by priciple alone, we've added Monzaemon's respected puppet techniques and we added Izanagi to Madara. JaZZBaND (talk) 13:33, May 9, 2013 (UTC)


Madara knows and can use them all, so can Obito. I mean Obito taught Nagato all of the six paths techniques..... 96.241.55.117 (talk) 20:52, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

where does it say that obito taught nagato the six paths Actionmanrandell (talk) 23:33, July 2, 2013 (UTC)actionmanrandellActionmanrandell (talk) 23:33, July 2, 2013 (UTC)

Appearance during Konoha's founding?

What color is Madara's shirt on the cover for Konohas founding?--JustaNobody (talk) 00:17, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

Looks blue/purple to me--Elveonora (talk) 00:39, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

It's hard for me to tell due to my own partial color-blindness, and that is what prevents me from properly telling what the exact color is, is it ok if I add that color to his appearance, yes, no, maybe? It's all up to you, you are admin after all Elveonora.--JustaNobody (talk) 00:43, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

Am I? Sucks no one told me until now, good to know... so my first act of as now official adminship is allowing you to add his shirt color, you don't have to thank me.--Elveonora (talk) 00:58, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, very much It's just best to discuss things with administration to learn whether or not, to add new things; to avoid getting warnings and being blocked.--JustaNobody (talk) 01:06, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

No problem. No one gets blocked for editing, but for vandalism etc.--Elveonora (talk) 01:13, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

Hashirama's quote

He didn't say Madara loved his brother more than Itachi. He said Madara probably loved/cared about his brother more than Hashirama himself towards Tobirama. In the raw he said "kisama no ani" (he called Sasuke "kimi"). --Hinoneko (talk) 08:53, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

Final Susanoo worth adding?

I hope someone can add Madara's complete Final Susanoo as separate picture under Madara's abilities and powers, it would be worth seeing due to give people a better idea of what it exactly looks like.--JustaNobody (talk) 02:18, June 22, 2013 (UTC)

Feel the same way. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 02:32, June 22, 2013 (UTC)

Does that mean somebody will add it?--JustaNobody (talk) 02:59, June 22, 2013 (UTC)

Susanoo's resistance to attacks?

I was wondering it seems like Madara Uchiha's Susanoo has immunity to the Fifth Mizukage's when Mei Terumi, A, and Naruto attacked was not added as well even it showed it in the manga where it clearly withstood all three of the above mentioned; combined characters attacks all while having no effect on Madara's Susanoo ribcage at all. So is it worth mentioning?--JustaNobody (talk) 22:29, June 22, 2013 (UTC)

As well as withstanding Might Guy's Daytime Tiger attack, and finally A and Onoki's combined aggravated rock technique, with all of that merely pushing back Madara's Susanoo, rather than actually harming it?--JustaNobody (talk) 23:28, June 22, 2013 (UTC)

Susanoo is chakra, it's not alive in the sense of having a consciousness. It's quite similar to a tailed beast cloak.--Elveonora (talk) 23:38, June 22, 2013 (UTC)

Still is it worth adding?--JustaNobody (talk) 23:42, June 22, 2013 (UTC)

Harm might be a poor description, but damage is worth noting, considering when it came to Sasuke's Susanoo it's ribs melted when Mei attacked it and A broke them with a back hand. So by comparison Madara's seems a lot sturdier. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 23:50, June 22, 2013 (UTC)

Isn't his Susanoo's sturdiness already rather well described? I mean, he have some mentions of what is able to damage it, and it goes without saying that things less than that will have little to no effect. I find it very overkill to go listing pretty much every attack it ever received, making a Susanoo Madara Damage Scale. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:58, June 22, 2013 (UTC)

Honestly didn't even read the article before I replied, probably should have, but if it's durability is already noted there's no point in gilding the lily. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 00:05, June 23, 2013 (UTC)

Black Rods creation technique

Soo...as we have seen, courtesy of chapter 636, Madara's ability to materialise his will into the black rods also allows him to control people remotely. Soo we've seen him infuse his will to make Black Zetsu, the rods and control Obito from a distance. Now does this warrant the creation of a dedicated technique article? Darksusanoo (talk) 10:07, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

So it's confirmed those rods are indeed Rinnegan Outer Path's ability and not something from Ten-Tails' body as our articles suggest. Those rods are "will" for sure since people can be controlled with them. Obito had them in his body since he massacred those Hidden Mist nin, that means Madara used Obito since day one T_T--Elveonora (talk) 10:11, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

Hum wherent the rods noted as an extension of Madara's Yin-Yang Release, rather than the Outer Path? Also note how when Obito's being control, his body is being covered in black matter, similar to how Black Zetsu was made which was noted as Yin-Yang, so there is a connection between it all. Though i ask again, is there enough now to make a technique article? Darksusanoo (talk) 10:15, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
The rods were created using yin-yang release, the control is done through Outer Path--Elveonora (talk) 10:22, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
Ok now i'm confuzeled...if the control is done through the Outer Path, how the hell did Madara make Black Zetsu, if he didn't even had the Rinnegan at that point...because given how he exerted control over Obito, i'd say that and how BZ was made is ver much connected. Darksusanoo (talk) 10:27, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
Dude he had the Rinnegan already, it appeared during the end of his natural lifespan.--Omojuze (talk) 10:31, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
Madara made Black Zetsu from Yin-Yang Release. Read the bottom of this section about Zetsu and you'll see. Elveonora is correct on this matter. Joshbl56 10:33, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
Dude when he made Black Zetsu, he had already tore out his Rinnegan, plugged it into Nagato and slapped another Sharingan eye in it's place...and @Josh...the section says nothing about the Outer Path...and no one answered my question if by the info of the latest chapter do we have enough to warrant a technique article? Darksusanoo (talk) 10:40, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

He didn't make BZ with Outer Path. BZ is Madara's will embodied using YYR, a creation, so are the rods, since they are inside of Obito's Hash part, his white half turns into a black one the same way as the part of white zetsu turned into black zetsu. The difference is that with Zetsu, he created an living avatar of his that carries his "will" and Obito's body is turning black because Madara's will is taking over from the rods. And I think it warrants an article, it's not exactly the same as six paths of pain, those are corpses moved with chakra like puppets, this is will controlling a living person. The remote transfer/control is an Outer Path technique, it's unlikely he would be able to do it without Rinnegan--Elveonora (talk) 10:44, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

@DarkSusanoo You ask how he made Black Zetsu and that's what I was answering. As for the dedicated technique.... I would think it would since we've seen him able to use Yin-Yang Release to do quite a bit now. If anything, it should have a mention in his Abilities. Joshbl56 10:52, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

But @Elve both are the same...his will materialised into an effect...you can say that he did to make BZ was the pretty much the same as Obito...so either both are Outer Path related (despite Madara not having a Rinnegan when he made BZ) or not. @Josh, the mention is already there, it takes up half of the section dedicated to his skills in Yin-Yang. Darksusanoo (talk) 11:08, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

You aren't getting it, the black rods and BZ are YYR creations, the chakra transmit/remote control isn't possible without a Rinnegan, is it? So the will taking over technique is Outer Path related--Elveonora (talk) 11:20, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

Yes i got it that the BZ and the rods are YYR, but they are not Outer Path related...but what happened to Obito, hell his body turned black like BZ, so the creation of the rods and BZ and Obito's control are the same, which is not OP related. Darksusanoo (talk) 11:28, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
Madara created these Zetsu matter through YYR, so he has complete control over it. These matter seems to work like "Edo Tensei", when at Madara's "will" gains a Black colored tone, when allowing it to have some autonomism has a white colored tone. And yes the control seems to be made through Outer Pass, my idea is almost the same as @Elv's. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 11:38, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
@Dark, ... Madara created BZ and the rods using YYR as his will embodied. Obito's body isn't turning into BZ, it's the will taking over. Why it's outer path is because it allows a Rinnegan user to transmit and control with the rods. If Madara had no Rinnegan, he would not be able to take over Obito--Elveonora (talk) 11:47, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
@Elveo: Why did the black "will" only take over the Zetsu-half of Obito? Senju SymbolKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 11:52, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
@Koto Because Madara only control the Zetsu matter at his will through OP, he can't control Obito's own body. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 12:02, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

Well that's something to be view latter...anyone else agrees to make a technique article? Darksusanoo (talk) 20:01, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

Deserves an article or not? my opinion is that deserves. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 21:54, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

Here's how I understand the current state of events: Madara uses a yet article-less Yin-Yang Release technique to materialise his will into things. Madara has used this technique to manifest his will into a living thing, one of the Zetsu clones, creating Black Zetsu. In the chapter we saw Black Zetsu being made, we were also told that Zetsu in general were made with Yin-Yang Release, but we don't see those being made, so we can't say anything without speculating, so whether it's the same technique or a different one, it's not the case here, just getting that one out of the way for now. Madara has also used the YYR that created BZ to create those chakra receivers. They're his will materialised, and Madara can apparently force those that bear his will to carry it out. Now, we have seen those receivers being used to channel chakra into another being (as chakra disruption blade), and to channel the power of the Outer Path, in a way that binds one's power, akin to to fūinjutsu, if not channelling an actual fūinjutsu. Now, I don't think these particular applications stem from the will manifesting YYR. I think this is similar in a way to how Gaara's shield of sand works. It's something (chakra receiver/shield of sand) that has one specific origin (YYR/Shukaku's sand control) that ended up being operated by another power (Outer Path/Karura's will). I do believe it warrants an article, but we have to be mindful of what to say it does. Will Manifesting/Materialising/Materialisation Technique seems to fit all the cases we've seen Madara doing it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:29, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you Sempai for the most part...but given how it was almost identical, how Obito became controled by Madara and how BZ was made (the black matter spreading through their bodies) that it can't be a coincidence. Plus i'll repeat i don't see the rods as Outer Path-related thing...maybe they were adapted to serve as medium to the technique's power, but if Madara made the rods and BZ and did not have a Rinnegan at the time...plus we know YYR does not require a Rinnegan. Darksusanoo (talk) 00:40, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
Madara is enforcing his will through its materialised form that was in Obito. He did the same thing to create BZ, but there he poured the will himself instead of using an already materialised form. We kinda agree on the Outer Path angle. Roads were not created by it, but can be used with it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:36, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
Will Materialisation Technique seems to do the trick in terms of name. Darksusanoo (talk) 01:42, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

@Darksusanoo, you still are missing the point. No one says those rods were created using Outer Path. But for his will to take over Obito, that's what the Outer Path is needed for. @Omn, we will have to sort out the Ten-Tails rod thing as well. They were likely used to control it. Also for the rods, it would appear that they are created using Hashirama's Living Clone and have some connection with Hash cells or something--Elveonora (talk) 14:40, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

I don't quite think the Hashirama clone is needed to create them. As far as we know, Madara simply inserted one of the rods in the clone, maybe as safeguard, or to make sure that everything created with it was tainted with his will. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:34, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

True main villain?

This is more of a hindsight thing I wanna get going on. If Obito truly does die from casting the Rinne Tensei and Madara is restored to full form, should we consider him the legitimate main antagonist of the entire series? I mean if Obito just drops dead like that, clearly he wasn't ever anything more than a tool of Madara's.. and from how close the series is to ending, I just don't see Orochimaru pulling a 180 and being an antagonist again. Thoughts? --M4ND0N (talk) 15:26, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

That seemed pretty obvious to me ever since the real Madara was fully revealed as well as how his character was fully explored. Madara felt like the Emperor Palpatine to Obito's Darth Vader and the relationship between the two reflects just that. That said, this isn't really a forum so I'd advise putting this as an actual topic of discussion as opposed to being on Madara's talk page. --DementedP (talk) 16:49, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
Orochimaru isn't dead. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 18:04, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
.....yeah I'm pretty sure that was mentioned when Orochimaru was referred to doing a 180. That said, I don't think it's far-fetched to say that Orochimaru and Sasuke may still be plotting something (be it good or bad), and whether or not they'll become villains again is pretty much up in the air. --DementedP (talk) 18:18, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry if you got the wrong idea.. I wasn't trying to use this as a forum. I started the discussion purely in context to how we phrase the article should Obito die next chapter. I mean in a sense of should we list Madara as the main antagonist and Obito as simply a "major antagonist"? It's pretty dumb to bring it up before the chapter comes out I know, but I'm curious what others think. --M4ND0N (talk) 00:09, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

The one issue I have with calling Madara the main antagonist of the series is that he wasn't around for the majority of the series, and even with the events he had a hand in plotting, he wasn't the one to carry the overwhelming majority of them out. He may have set the frame for the main picture, but he's not the one who pulled the strings from behind the curtains. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:29, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

But if Obito does die next week then it proves that he was merely a pawn and not a genuine main villain. The bottom line is that if it wasn't for Madara, most of the events in the series wouldn't have transpired and while Obito was acting as Madara, he did change his personality significantly to mimic his mentor.. I think Obito acting as Madara kept his presence alive and even though his formal introduction wasn't till much later, he's still been a significant part of the story for a very long time since Obito started using his name. --M4ND0N (talk) 05:47, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

As omnibender said madara hasn't been seen carrying out his plan throughout the series, but him and obito are the ones that caused Naruto(series) to happen he wasn't gthe one who made things how they are that was of course obito prior to the series but i wouldn't put madara as the main antagonist just yet, because you could say orochimaru was the main antagonist after the chunin exams or the akatsuki but he is the main antagonist that was behind the curtains but i wouldn't edit his article for something like this yet --ROOT 根 (talk) 10:41, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

Main Antagonists aren't always characters who directly acted on their plans themselves but most of the time are people who set them into motion. If Obito was just a pawn then that would mean Madara is the true mastermind, despite his considerable absence from the series. He plotted everything and simply left his lackeys to carry it all out, i don't think that's so rare for a main antagonist to do. he might not be the nemesis of the main character, I'm pretty sure that's still Sasuke, but he is the one who's behind virtually all of the evil occuring in Part II, although Orochimaru is more of the main antagonist of Part I i think.--77.101.215.79 (talk) 12:29, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

Let's see: Madara is responsible for Nagato and Obito. Well, can't there be 2 "major antagonists" ?--Elveonora (talk) 14:31, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

Usually there's just one main antagonist but if the series is subdivided into sagas, say like Dragon ball with the Freeza, Cell and Buu Sagas, there can be multiple lesser antagonists to fill the role. --77.101.215.79 (talk) 15:32, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

But given all that's happened I'd say Madara is the main antagonist of Part II and Orochimaru is the main antagonist of Part I. But yeah, putting Sasuke into consideration it's probably too early to make that call.. But Kishi said Naruto would be done in 2014 so it's a bit too late for Oro or Sasuke to become the new main villain[s] of the series I think. --M4ND0N (talk) 16:40, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

i say yes what about you--176.252.171.147 (talk) 17:12, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

I would say that Sasuke is more of Naruto's antithesis but not an antagonist. as of yet he has done more to make himself such a thing than he has to be a true Antagonist, given his goals I'd say he still won't be an Antagonist even if he does fight Naruto. Madara meanwhile has schemed for a good few decades to take over the world, opposed the main cast directly with various forms of danger, usually through Obito and Akatsuki, and has ultimately spun the world into perpetual disorder with the utterance of his name. --77.101.215.79 (talk) 19:38, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

"The one issue I have with calling Madara the main antagonist of the series is that he wasn't around for the majority of the series, and even with the events he had a hand in plotting, he wasn't the one to carry the overwhelming majority of them out. He may have set the frame for the main picture, but he's not the one who pulled the strings from behind the curtains."
I'd normally agree with this, if it weren't for the fact that Madara actually showed up himself, essentially taking over for Obito as the main leading figure of the war to continually push his plan. If Madara had remained a shadowy figure all throughout, I'd agree that Obito is the main antagonist, but the fact remains that he actually showed up himself and his character is even fully explored to solidify his presence. Not to mention, Madara's influence is ultimately what led Obito to do the things he did. Despite being more prominently shown in the series, Obito is treated almost as a second-in-command to Madara. This is very evident in the way they interact each other. Sure Obito is doing this based on his own reasons, but it ultimately makes him an enforcer of Madara's plans and not necessarily based on his own separate one. Heck he even pretended to be "Madara" on behalf of Madara, so Madara's presence and influence is definitely felt throughout the series even before his actual in-person appearance. While I agree that Madara can technically be considered as the main antagonist of the series, I think that Obito's role as a major antagonist should still be noted (just like with Orochimaru and Nagato) --DementedP (talk) 07:03, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

Well after thinking about it some more, I don't think it's entirely fair to discredit Obito's role up until now. While it's true that he was acting as Madara, the fact remains that it wasn't 'really' Madara doing all the stuff up until now. I think it's fair to say Obito's main antagonist role ended after he was unmasked. Maybe we could say Obito was the main antagonist up to the Shinobi World War arc? And then say Madara is the main antagonist during the Ten Tails Revival Arc up to the current point in the story. Orochimaru was the main villain of Part I so I can't really say either Obito or Madara are the main villains of the series as a whole, since they have little influence over the events occurring prior to Part 2. --M4ND0N (talk) 17:00, June 30, 2013 (UTC)

That's a fair enough assessment. I was reading the early parts of the war and it seems fair to give Obito some credit for his work (specifically when he donned a new outfit as the "Masked Man"). That sound perfect though, Obito was definitely the main antagonist up to the Shinobi World War arc, whereas Madara's reveal (and backstory) essentially turned him in to the main antagonist (from Ten Tails Revival Arc up to the current story). That's also true in regards to how their influence only came about in Part 2. --DementedP (talk) 19:37, July 2, 2013 (UTC)

LOL The new chapter kind of made this entire debate an ironic assumption-fest. I guess Madara's a secondary villain now? --M4ND0N (talk) 20:17, July 3, 2013 (UTC)

Haha so true! I can see what Kishimoto is sort of doing though, in the sense that he's having the main fight be fought by the younger generation as opposed to the older ones. Certainly an idea I have no objections to, and at least in this regard Obito's role is not all done yet as far this whole thing goes. --DementedP (talk) 18:44, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

First seen

F

Madara is actually seen and revealed as tobi at the end of shippuden #125


Rhythian (talk) 19:38, July 2, 2013 (UTC)Rhythian


tobi is actually obito Actionmanrandell (talk) 23:56, July 2, 2013 (UTC)actionmanrandellActionmanrandell (talk) 23:56, July 2, 2013 (UTC)

how will the outer paths work this time

when nagato used Outer Path: Samsara of Heavenly Life Technique to bring back the villages to life and there souls were in the crossroads: the technique works By channelling their power through the King of Hell, the Rinnegan wielder can re-infuse new life force energy to the bodies of those who have died. With their rejuvenated bodies acting as an anchor. but in this case Madara is not in the cross roads he is bound to a host body by the edo tensei so its not actually his body therefore there would be nothing to anchor his soul to. plus beside if it uses the body that is hosting him to wouldn't the samsara resurrect said body instead? just wondering

Actionmanrandell (talk) 00:03, July 3, 2013 (UTC)actionmanrandellActionmanrandell (talk) 00:03, July 3, 2013 (UTC)

Izanagi

Where was it stated, that Madara had the jutsu? Obito does, but where does Madara states, or shows that he does?--— Kinglink15 (Kinglink15) 03:40, July 14, 2013 (UTC)

Madara taught Obito how to use Izanagi (the Uchiha kinjutsu in chapter 606) and also has the prerequisite for using it (Sharingan), thus he is logically a user of the technique himself.--BeyondRed (talk) 03:46, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
Kinglink15 is right though. Izanagi and Izanami are techniques that all Uchiha/Sharingan wielder can/would (in the case of being in the clan) learn in theory. That does not however mean he's used the technique as far as we know. It can just as easily be mentioned when Obito learned it in the trivia. We put too much into seeing techniques in infoboxes to validate them.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 07:02, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
As it is now, the other Six Paths techniques are not listed under Madara's techniques, so it's strange that Izanagi is, when Madara taught them to Obito as well. Why was Izanagi's inclusion decided originally?--BeyondRed (talk) 07:32, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
Again back and forth people? I see it some people decide on something only for others later to ruin it. The decision was to list Madara because he taught Obito Uchiha kinjutsu and Yin-Yang release, Izanagi is both--Elveonora (talk) 13:17, July 14, 2013 (UTC)

So please, anyone tell me...who else could have taught Izanagi to Obito? Or anyother of the Six Paths Technique while we're on the subject? If one can teach something, it's a logical assumption they can also use it...and Madara being the most powerful memeber of the Uchiha clan, a man with the power of the First Hokage and the Rinnegan and a man who has clearly dabbled extensively in the techniques of Sage, which include Yin-Yang. He has the skill, he had the time to learn them, he knows enough of them to teach them to someone else. It speaks for itself...let it die already. Darksusanoo (talk) 13:40, July 14, 2013 (UTC)

So list Sasuke as a Izanami user, he learned it theoretically with Itachi and thats a general skill for Uchihas, if he knows the theory he is a user right? Thats what is being used with Madara as well. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 14:28, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
Dan, we are usually in agreement with eachother, but not here. Don't start acting crazy now. OF COURSE SASUKE SHOULDNT BE LISTED MAN! It was actually stated that Madara taught these techniques to Obito, right? So why even bring up that Sasuke scenario? Was it said that Itachi taught Izanami to Sasuke? No. So how would your example apply? It doesn't. Remember Minato people! It was said that he created the Rasengan or when we were told Tobirama was a user of EDO-TENSEI. We listed them before we saw them do anything, right? So obviously, you don't have to be seen doing anything to be listed as a user. It's clearly enough to have some sort of mention to add them as users. And if logic points in that direction, that's ok too. Senju SymbolKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 14:39, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
Yes, Obito could've picked up a scroll and just as easily read about the technique much like how all the other several dozen Uchiha who used to use the techniques in the past. I'll be the first to agree that there needs to be some consistency with the conditions under which we add people as users but simply because Madara said he'll teach Obito the kinjutsu doesn't mean he's ever used it. This isn't exactly something you can physically shown someone and they replicate it. There is a difference between using something and teaching someone how to use something.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 14:43, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
Yes, there is a difference. But how big is the difference? How can you teach someone something, you had no experience with, nor applied yourself? In Naruto, everything someone has taught someone else, they can clearly use it themselves. Senju SymbolKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 14:46, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
Lack of consistency and bias will once hurt this place a lot I'm afraid. But your point is a good one Cerez, talking about the last sentence. Nevertheless, I'm a bit uncertain if we wouldn't find more cases in which a character is being listed as a user of something that he was noted to have been taught/known but is yet to be seen using it, so. I just can't recall an example as a counter-argument at this point, there must be one though, I hope ._.--Elveonora (talk) 14:48, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
@Sorry Koto but i have to disagree wit you now :(. Look at Kakashi teaching Naruto how to use Wind Release? And Kakashi is not a user, he only has a advanced knowledge on the subject. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 14:49, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
No, Dan. He did teach him how to use wind release, he taught him how to determine his element and mix it with jutsu. The principle is different from the actual application. But on the main point, there's a perfect example in Primary Lotus or even the Shadow Leaf Dance technique. Guy taught them to Rock Lee, obviously. But he has yet to be seen using either of them. Senju SymbolKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 14:55, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
@Koto "mix it with jutsu" isn't teaching how to use it? It is... So this shows that someone can teach something if he knows enough to teach it to another. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 14:59, July 14, 2013 (UTC)

Given the complexity of Izanagi, i find it difficult for Obito not to have learn it from Madara from a visual/practical standpoint and we know he had replacement Sharingan...plus by Madara's terms, he said he was going to teach him Uchiha kinjutsu, the Six Paths Techniques and Yin-Yang Release ones....given how two out the those three parameters are what makes Izanagi. Also another thing to consider is that Madara molded Obito to in his image, to maintain the idea Madara was still alive, soo both mens skillsets had to be reasonably similar. So to say Obito could do it and Madara can't doesn't make a lot of sense...Darksusanoo (talk) 22:08, July 14, 2013 (UTC)

@Dark the question here is that someone like Madara having a vast knowledge on the subject could easily teach Obito how to do it without being a user, like Kakashi did with Naruto, and i will talk again about Itachi's Izanami, Sasuke did not realize how Itachi used Izanami, but Itachi explained to him after using it, could be Sasuke a Izanami user? Obvious... From what is being said here. Now, who teached Itachi about Izanami? Maybe he read a scroll or sort of a Uchiwa plate for that, i can't see someone teaching Izanami to Itachi being that he left the village soon and had no further contact with the clan. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 12:55, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
@Dan...your example is flawed because your mixing the teacher with the student in your examples. Sasuke may have learned the theroretical basis of how Izanami worked...he also understands the workings of Izanagi...but he never used them. On the other hand Madara taught Obito how to do it...and Obito's Izanagi is the most perfect one shown so far...to have that kind of jutsu requires more than theoreical knowledge, and Izanagi to me is a jutsu that requires teaching from a practical standpoint. Why wouldn't the most powerful of the Uchiha not be capable of using one of their most powerful dojutsu. Also if the idea was to make Obito into Madara, it would be suspicious that he one would use it if he never could in the first place. Darksusanoo (talk) 13:42, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
@Dark and how about the Jinchūriki sealing techniques? To be exact, the Ten Tails sealing technique, that is really complex, right? In order to learn the technique he would need to testify it? Do you believe he saw it?

And for my examples, take the Kakashi/Naruto WR example, is enough, the Itachi/Sasuke Izanami is just a way to use the same logical all the way around. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 14:03, July 15, 2013 (UTC)

Kakashi and the WR is a bit flawed as well, because first Kakashi taught him how to learn his elemental affinity...and to teach him how to use it, he had to get Asuma's help...a skilled Wind Release user to push the point...and in regards to the Ten-tails sealing technique, i'm more than sure the Sage and Madara can also use them...the Sage because he was the first jinchuriki and Madara because it was his plan to become the new one. Darksusanoo (talk) 14:49, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
But how Obito learned it? Saw Madara using it? ofcourse not, if so, Madara was a Jinchūriki, that only explains that someone can teach something without being a user at all. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 14:53, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
The case is not about whether or not Madara can use it, because more likely than no he can. It's about the fact that the infobox is being "abused" in the sense that techniques a person has never used are being listed under there. Derived/parent techniques are understandable, but he's never used this technique. The problem is that we have no precedence or guideline to go off what is and what isn't added to the infobox as jutsu for a character...--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 16:25, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
@Cerez but some are defending Izanagi's permanence at Madara's infobox because they believe he can use it... And even that we can't be sure, so there is no way he should stay listed as a Izanagi user, that should be changed. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 16:42, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
Because if someone can teach a technique as complex as this: A dojutsu-based forbidden technique of their own clan, a Yin-Yang based one... they have to be able to use it. Madara said he was going to teach Obito, Uchiha kinjutsu, so far there are only two of these and Obito only showed one. We have to assume the basic principle that if one character can teach a technique to another character, they have to be able to use on some basic level in order to pass it on to someone else, unless there's direct evidence to the contrary. Darksusanoo (talk) 17:42, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
Kakashi and Naruto WR example settles this. Kakashi can't use and teached Naruto how to use it into his technique, i know your point of view isn't that bad either, but it is a big speculation, and that shouldn't be at the infobox. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 17:46, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
It does not settle anything...Kakashi only taught him how to identify his elemental affinity and the initial notions in it's use and he still required an alternative teaching way to do so and Naruto still had to require the help of an actual Wind Release user to learn on both a theoretical and practical standpoint. Darksusanoo (talk) 18:14, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
Ok you don't want to see any point of view but your own. You say that no one could learn Izanagi without seeing it, so tell me how did Danzo learned Izanagi? Did someone used it so he could learn? @Dark be reasonable. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 19:12, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
I am being reasonable:
Obito was taken in by Madara. Fact
Madara said he would train Obito personally. Fact
Madara said he would teach him the following:
- Uchiha kinjutsu
- Yin-Yang Release
- The Six Paths Techniques

All of this...fact. What is Izanagi? An Uchiha kinjutsu and YYR technique. I'm following the logical assumption here...if you can teach something, you can use it to some degree...that is the logic. Darksusanoo (talk) 19:22, July 15, 2013 (UTC)

The only fact here is that Madara did not use it, and teaching something doesn't mean using it. That is a big assumption, don't know what the rest thinks. Where needing more opinions to close this matter. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 19:36, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
How can you teach someone to use something effectively without knowing how to use it? It makes no sense whatsoever. But oww well, let's see what the rest of the people says. Darksusanoo (talk) 20:10, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
No one said he doesn't know how to use it, where saing he just never used it, so he can't be listed, there are more ways to teach or learn something without seeing it or using it. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 21:56, July 15, 2013 (UTC)

Ok, this discussion is wearing my patience thin, guys. Allow me to bring up some points.

  • When was Guy ever seen using the primary lotus? Never. Yet he is listed as a user.
  • When was Mangetsu seen using the Seven Swords? Never. People have said he mastered them.
  • When was the Sage ever seen using the Six Paths? Never. We only have mentions of him mastering the Rinnegan, so it's assumed he can use all the techniques.

There are thousands more I can bring up, im serious. You people seem to forget what the word USER means on our website. A "user" of a technique is someone who was mentioned to have been able, has been mentioned to have used, or has even been seen using the technique. As long as the latter fits in one of those three, they're automatically listed as a user. May I remind you of Tobirama? Gosh, for all we know he could have written on a scroll, the exact directions on how the technique works. How do we know he used it? Someone mentioned that they have, that's why. So with that example alone, you can clearly rule out that the character has to be seen using the technique. C'mon guys, lets use our minds logically and stay more consistent. It has started to piss a lot of people off. Though, im not entirely pissed, im worried that this crap will come up again. Oh, and Dan, lay off the Kakashi and Wind Release example. You act as if he used the technique that Naruto developed. This is how your example should go:

  • Kakashi knows how to find your affinity - taught it to Naruto.
  • Kakashi knows how to mix your affinity with jutsu - taught it to Naruto.

That's all he did. Kakashi didn't use the Wind Release: Rasengan, or anyof its variations. Although, do I doubt he can learn the jutsu given enough time? Heck no, he could, but the fact of the matter is, he did not. Senju SymbolKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 22:59, July 15, 2013 (UTC)

@Koto i am tired too, if you guys can't understand that Izanagi can be learned with a scroll or a Uchiwa plate i can't do nothing, see Danzo's example, and Itachi Izanami example, and Madara's himself, they learned it from an object and not from a training don't you think? Is so hard to accept that it is a conclusion without great fundamentals but a vague phrase? That is not a very logic thought, that is a big assumption (but by saying that is an assumption i am not saying that i am 100% right, and that you guys haven't a point). But is vague, i can't do no more here. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 23:11, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
Dan, let me reply to your example and give you a question.
I agree with what you say. You are totally right on when you say those people could have learned them from a scroll, or by some other means. But you need to give me the difference between this situation and the example in which Guy can use the Primary Lotus. What's your standing on that. Neither Madara, nor Guy have been seen using the techniques in mention. But yet Guy is listed as a user. Senju SymbolKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 23:19, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps because it is a technique of physical component, that has never been demonstrated being included in any available parchment, and his master's trainings were all practical and not theoretical, while in case of Izanagi, has been clearly demonstrated being contained in scrolls and Uchiwa plates. But the way you look at things is different from mine, and you will allways disagree if you can't accept that Madara's phrase is very vague and Izanagi learning content is different from PL. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 23:55, July 15, 2013 (UTC)

With Madara and Obito, the latter could have learned it elsewhere, even if very unlikely, since Madara trained him in areas that cover the technique's description. But on top of that, Madara is a boss, in theory, he can do anything and was leader of Uchiha--Elveonora (talk) 23:58, July 15, 2013 (UTC)

Yes i know that, this case is different, it is only a phrase that could lead 2 ways, practical and theoretical, but what was used? And i have no doubt that Madara can use it, look at what @Cerez said about this, i believe he is right. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 00:04, July 16, 2013 (UTC)
Dan, with all due respect, all you did was assume, based on guesses. All that would have me do is ask you how Guy learned it.
From his sensei?
Why didn't his team have experience with technique?
Could he have learned it from his teacher? Did he get the knowledge form a scroll.
Did he create the technique?

You cannot answer a single one of those follow-up questions. No one can but Kishi. The difference here, with Madara and Obito, would be that Madara actually told Obito he would teach him the Uchiha Kinjutsu. If you brought this argument to Madara/Obito being able to use Izanagi, then you'd be right 100%. However, here we have a basis. No matter how "vague" you think Madara's statement was, it was said nonetheless. There are few meanings to what he said, so it shouldn't be vague to you anyway. All-in-all, the evidence stands strong, and you are assuming that Obito learned Izanagi another way, despite the fact that Madara clearly told us what he was going to teach it to him. Senju SymbolKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 00:07, July 16, 2013 (UTC)

@Koto, and you can't answer no one of this but Kishi himself.
Did Madara used Izanagi so Obito could learn it?
Is really Madara capable of using Izanagi?
What was the method used by Madara to teach Izanagi to Obito?.
This is why he can't be listed, because Izanagi has more than one learning method, you can not assume that Madara used it or is a user. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 11:31, July 16, 2013 (UTC)

Height

I don't recall seeing any measurements in his article in the databook. Did I not see it or is that just speculation? --KiumaruHamachi (talk) 23:06, July 21, 2013 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi

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