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===Trimming Down: Abilities===
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To avoid further edit war, I am adding this here with my intentions. Namely, the complete removal of [[Bukijutsu]], [[kenjutsu]] and Intelligence from his abilities section. As well as general trimming down of the prose and circlejerking his section is full of. Because quite frankly, his intelligence should go under Personality, and bukijutsu and kenjutsu are literally only worth a sentence because they aren't that important most of his fighting style was focused around Susanoo, with very little use of a sword or gubai.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 23:50, December 22, 2013 (UTC)
   
<center><big><big><big>SPECULATION WILL BE REMOVED</big></big></big></center>
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: I understand what you are saying, but that is also like saying that Shikamaru's intelligence is not a defining attribute to him. Similar, Itachi's signature ability wasn't shurikens, but was still a noticeable skill of his. Steveo920, 18:56 December 22, 2013
   
== Amaterasu ==
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: Seriously, I am all for making this page sleeker, I've been reducing all day to help out. Not just the abilities section, but the personality section as well. I just think that if the character shows noticeable skill in it, it should be mention to some extent. Steveo920, 19:-1, December 22, 2013
   
When was it stated in the manga that having Susanoo and Tsukuyomi automatically meant you had Amaterasu??? cause Madara and Obito both claimed to be able to use Tsukuyomi, and while it is true that both Sasuke and Itachi were able to use all 3 jutsu, Tobi showed surprise at Sasuke using Susanoo, even though he knew Sasuke had Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi....... Madara wasn't shown using Amaterasu yet so isn't him knowing just speculation??? those 3 jutsu being a package deal was never once stated as fact...... or am I wrong, cause if so, what chapter???
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::The issue is though intelligence is not Madara's defining feature. Madara's defining ability is his dojutsu. He is smart no denying that, but it is not a defining ability. Same with kenjutsu and bukijustsu, he for the most part uses them. But he isn't defined by them. Its not the same situation of Shikamaru or Tenten, both or are defined by their intelligence and weapon techniques respectively. Both ken and bukijutsu can be mentioned, they should be mentioned, but it is not worth a large section which continues to just read like a circlejerk of how awesome Madara is.
--[[User:Deathmailrock|Deathmailrock]] ([[User talk:Deathmailrock|talk]]) 08:27, May 2, 2013 (UTC)
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::Like that's the second part of the problem. We don't need to have multiple mentions of how Madara can pwn fodder shinobi with no effort. We don't need to literally repeat some of his great feats multiple times in multiple sections. That was what I was trying to do to trim this down, I removed repeated actions and dropped ones that are quite frankly pointless (Mentioning his can battle an entire army is fine. Mentioning he can battle an entire army multiple times and it becomes a circlejerk.)--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 00:08, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
:It was stated in a databook.'''~ [[User:UltimateSupreme|<span style="color:blue;">Ultimate</span>]][[User talk:UltimateSupreme|<span style="color:#EE2C2C;">Supreme</span>]]''' 08:36, May 2, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
== About Jutsu ==
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Everything should be mentioned, im agaisnt taking certain thing out [[User:Munchvtec|Munchvtec]] ([[User talk:Munchvtec|talk]]) 00:29, December 23, 2013 (UTC)munchvtec
   
This is mistaken or what? but I didn't see Susano'o as Madara Technique at Jutsu List, please fix it.[[Special:Contributions/203.201.173.210|203.201.173.210]] ([[User talk:203.201.173.210|talk]]) 04:52, May 5, 2013 (UTC)
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:::Good contribution. Now tell us how you really feel or you just like the circlejerk of information Madara's page has devolved into?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 00:31, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
:Infobox bug. No infobox is currently showing jutsu characters have only used in the manga, but that have already appeared in the anime being used by someone else. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 04:56, May 5, 2013 (UTC)
 
Why Madara don't have Genjutsu: Sharingan & Tsukuyomi in his jutsu list?--[[User:BossGSCS|BossGSCS]] ([[User talk:BossGSCS|talk]]) 14:25, July 25, 2013 (UTC)--[[User:BossGSCS|BossGSCS]] ([[User talk:BossGSCS|talk]]) 14:25, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
== all paths techniques ==
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: I agree, little things shouldn't be blown out of proportion, that's why I am still gragually trimming it down myself, but to act like they had no involvement at all is like saying they have no ability for it all. Hashirama's life force and chakra is a key aspect to Madara's plan, but it wasn't a defining attribute to Hashirama himself. Whats-more, Madara's weapon and intelligence traits are noticeable as he was known for his gunbai and his intelligence played an important role to the development of the world, having manipulated so much from beyond the grave. Steveo920, 19:30, December 22, 2013
   
When Madara was about to train Obito, he told him he is gonna teach six paths technique, meaning shouldn't we list him as a user also of others besides Preta and Deva? Not to mention he ordered Obito to use that black rod meaning Outer one too--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:09, May 9, 2013 (UTC)
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::To be honest, your trimming down seems more phoned in. And you are still blowing things out to be bigger than they need to be. As I said he has used his gubai and that can be mentioned, but not to such a degree that he ''needs'' entire section dedicated to it. We don't ''need'' a section on his intelligence because "he manipulated things from the grave". He actually didn't, he had Tobi do his works for him, and had Kabuto not revived Madara, Tobi would have been alone with the Ten-Tails. We can mention he is smart fine, but he does not need an entire section based on his intelligence at least not in his Abilities section. So yes, even "important role to the development of the world" is overhyping him. The problem is that much of what is in the article is overhype. Things need to actually be ''removed'' to solve this problem not trying to dance around the issue.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 00:45, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
:I pondered on your inquiry for a while, and come to think of it, I agree. I mean, by priciple alone, we've added Monzaemon's respected puppet techniques and we added Izanagi to Madara. [[User:JaZZBaND|JaZZBaND]] ([[User talk:JaZZBaND|talk]]) 13:33, May 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
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:: Okay, I'll admit that by statement about his intelligence wasn't thought out, I guess I was getting a little emotional since I seriously put so much work into my edits, but the way you are saying it, characters like Kakashi don't need an intellgence section. It isn't his most defining but it place a huge role on how he operates. Steveo920, 19:53, December 22, 2013
   
Madara knows and can use them all, so can Obito. I mean Obito taught Nagato all of the six paths techniques..... [[Special:Contributions/96.241.55.117|96.241.55.117]] ([[User talk:96.241.55.117|talk]]) 20:52, May 29, 2013 (UTC)
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::: I'm of the same mind as Ultimate, honestly, and for every page. Not just Madara. I don't know when it became acceptable that every single sneeze a character makes is mentioned in the ability section, but its needless, and takes up space that could be used by actual useful information. The abilities section should give a '''summary'''—key word here—of Madara's defining capabilities. His dōjutsu, to name the most significant. Trimming bukijutsu and intelligence, or even outright removing them, would be fine. Madara hasn't even used his fan since he first arrived back on the battlefield, and, I'm sorry, while he's skilled with other weapons, they clearly aren't his main mode of attack. Not to mention, the abilities section was mostly buffed up by a select few who seem to worship Madara's ever action, adding in needless "junk info" along with a ton of unneeded references. These articles aren't meant to recount every single action in the series done by these characters, verbatim. It is to give a summary. If people want to know that Madara Uchiha was capable of using a fan to blow away Naruto, then they can visit the Jutsu page, or read the manga, but it certainly doesn't need an entire section dedicated to it. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 00:56, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
   
where does it say that obito taught nagato the six paths [[User:Actionmanrandell|Actionmanrandell]] ([[User talk:Actionmanrandell|talk]]) 23:33, July 2, 2013 (UTC)actionmanrandell[[User:Actionmanrandell|Actionmanrandell]] ([[User talk:Actionmanrandell|talk]]) 23:33, July 2, 2013 (UTC)
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:: If you want to reduce the sections, I will have no problem with that. I just think that if they show more than average skill in the said area, it should be noted. It's kind of like how on various pages a character's limits are noted, like Itahci not being able to defeat Jiraiya. Its not defining, but it paints a clearer picture on what the character can do. 2Steveo920, 20:09, December 22, 2012
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:::Except this isn't about his limit, its nothing but circlejerking around how he is close to being a god. We could mention him being legendary and strong but instead the article throws extreme focus on him wrecking or hyping up little things he does. Honestly skills outside of dojutsu and nature transformations can be summed up as "Highly skilled in taijutsu and various weapons, particularly his gumbai". That is literally all that needs to be said about kenjutsu bukijutsu and taijutsu yet the article has 3 different sections about them.-[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 01:40, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
   
== Appearance during Konoha's founding? ==
 
   
What color is Madara's shirt on the cover for Konohas founding?--[[User:JustaNobody|JustaNobody]] ([[User talk:JustaNobody|talk]]) 00:17, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
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:: Okay, I'll admit I don't even know what "circlejerking" is exactly, but I'm not trying to overhype anything> I just want to give readers a better idea than just thinking a character is good at something when there is more information. To go overboard about how he is close to being a god from intelligence or weapon skills would be like saying he is borderline clairvoyant or he no army in the world could stand against him respectively. Steveo920, 20:48, December 22, 2012
:Looks blue/purple to me--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 00:39, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
It's hard for me to tell due to my own partial color-blindness, and that is what prevents me from properly telling what the exact color is, is it ok if I add that color to his appearance, yes, no, maybe? It's all up to you, you are admin after all Elveonora.--[[User:JustaNobody|JustaNobody]] ([[User talk:JustaNobody|talk]]) 00:43, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
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In my opinion, I find trimming down Madara's article to be pointless. 100,000 some bytes is hardly that bad, and furthermore, given that the manga is scheduled to end in 2014 (so probably in a little more than two months or three), it's not like there's that much more information that will be given on Madara. Furthermore, Bukijutsu and whatnot ''are'' crucial to a character. The purpose of a Wikia site for information is to give readers a thorough guideline about characters and other associated things, so to shorten it to only bare essentials and cutting out what we consider "unimportant" is silly. As a canon site, we should present ''exactly'' what Kishi gives us through the chapters, not shortening it and summarizing it to how we personally fancy it. I dunno, just my two cents. --[[User:Silver-Haired Seireitou|Silver-Haired Seireitou]] ([[User talk:Silver-Haired Seireitou|talk]]) 05:07, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
:Am I? Sucks no one told me until now, good to know... so my first act of as now official adminship is allowing you to add his shirt color, you don't have to thank me.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 00:58, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
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:Except the wikia was never supposed to be an alternative to actually reading the manga/watching the anime. Sections like abilities are supposed to be summuries, not word for word dick jerking of a particular character where every single thing they do is consider the Kings Gold and hyped as if it is an intergral part of the character.-[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 10:33, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
   
Thank you, very much It's just best to discuss things with administration to learn whether or not, to add new things; to avoid getting warnings and being blocked.--[[User:JustaNobody|JustaNobody]] ([[User talk:JustaNobody|talk]]) 01:06, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
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:Various characters have various abilities that aren't the most prominent, but still give an overall idea what they can do. Kakashi specializes in ninjutsu supplemented by his Sharingan, yet he is still a highly skilled taijutsu user, one of few able to use any of the Eight Gates, which he rarely uses but is still noteworthy. Steveo920. 10:51, Dec 23, 2013
:No problem. No one gets blocked for editing, but for vandalism etc.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 01:13, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
==Hashirama's quote==
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:: Okay, but you're equating "noteworthy" as an excuse to write an entire novel and dedicate a unique section to the skill. Even your example can be summed up as, "Kakashi is a talented user of taijutsu, being one of the few shinobi capable of opening the Eight Gates". Bingo. Done. Not five paragraphs on everytime he successfully landed a punch on a villain. Ultimate is absolutely right. This wiki is not an alternative for the manga. If you want to know every single skill a character has, that is what the story is for. Summaries are what we are supposed to give: nothing further. That is what a Wikia—an encyclopedia—is meant for. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 19:37, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
He didn't say Madara loved his brother more than Itachi. He said Madara probably loved/cared about his brother more than Hashirama himself towards Tobirama. In the raw he said "kisama no ani" (he called Sasuke "kimi").
 
--[[User:Hinoneko|Hinoneko]] ([[User talk:Hinoneko|talk]]) 08:53, June 17, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
== Final Susanoo worth adding? ==
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::: No, my point about Kakashi isn't that he can use the eight gates, its that his abilities in the taijutsu are more than just basic. Again, I am not trying to glorify it or right an entire "novel" as you put it, I am just saying that needs more detail. Steveo920, 14:50, December 23, 2013
   
I hope someone can add Madara's complete Final Susanoo as separate picture under Madara's abilities and powers, it would be worth seeing due to give people a better idea of what it exactly looks like.--[[User:JustaNobody|JustaNobody]] ([[User talk:JustaNobody|talk]]) 02:18, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
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:::: No, it really doesn't need more detail. Detail is for the manga to work out. We work out summaries. Plain and simple. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 21:01, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
:Feel the same way. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 02:32, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
Does that mean somebody will add it?--[[User:JustaNobody|JustaNobody]] ([[User talk:JustaNobody|talk]]) 02:59, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
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:::::I'm in full agreement of trimming down this article (and some others, but that's for another time). Madara Uchiha is one of the series' most popular characters among the fans, so it is easy to subconsciously blow his feats out of proportion. Emphasis should be on his dojutsu prowess, but everything should be concise and summarized. I can help out with the personality section as well though, since I've done minor work in said areas in the past. --[[User:Kakashi Namikaze|Kakashi Namikaze]] - [[User talk:Kakashi Namikaze|talk]] 14:20, December 25, 2013 (UTC)
   
== Susanoo's resistance to attacks? ==
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== Elderly pic for infobox? ==
   
I was wondering it seems like Madara Uchiha's Susanoo has immunity to the Fifth Mizukage's when Mei Terumi, A, and Naruto attacked was not added as well even it showed it in the manga where it clearly withstood all three of the above mentioned; combined characters attacks all while having no effect on Madara's Susanoo ribcage at all. So is it worth mentioning?--[[User:JustaNobody|JustaNobody]] ([[User talk:JustaNobody|talk]]) 22:29, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
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Currently it's the most recent pic of Madara when he was alive that's animated. The current photo doesn't show his revived self at all so what do you guys think? --[[User:M4ND0N|Mandon]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 17:46, January 9, 2014 (UTC)
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:...But he's regained his youth...that was from a flashback. --[[User:OmegaRasengan|OmegaRasengan]] ([[User talk:OmegaRasengan|talk]]) 17:49, January 9, 2014 (UTC)
   
As well as withstanding Might Guy's Daytime Tiger attack, and finally A and Onoki's combined aggravated rock technique, with all of that merely pushing back Madara's Susanoo, rather than actually harming it?--[[User:JustaNobody|JustaNobody]] ([[User talk:JustaNobody|talk]]) 23:28, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
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There's currently no image of him post rinne-tensei in the anime though. The one we're currently using doesn't even resemble his current appearance, it's just a pic of him in his edo-tensei form. --[[User:M4ND0N|Mandon]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 17:52, January 9, 2014 (UTC)
:Susanoo is chakra, it's not alive in the sense of having a consciousness. It's quite similar to a tailed beast cloak.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:38, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
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:Look, what is posted in the infobox is what the character currently looks like the anime. Once Hashirama vs. Madara is animated, a pic of living Madara will likely be uploaded. Until then, this will suffice.--[[User:OmegaRasengan|OmegaRasengan]] ([[User talk:OmegaRasengan|talk]]) 17:57, January 9, 2014 (UTC)
   
Still is it worth adding?--[[User:JustaNobody|JustaNobody]] ([[User talk:JustaNobody|talk]]) 23:42, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
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Well I don't know much about the image guidelines EDIT: By that I mean the factors in choosing an infobox image. not the actual guidelines, but I'm just saying the current image isn't a photo of him while he's alive. And he doesn't look exactly like that in the current chapters. We thought his post-RT appearance would resemble his edo tensei body and that's why the image was decided upon, but clearly that wasn't the case. --[[User:M4ND0N|Mandon]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 18:03, January 9, 2014 (UTC)
   
Harm might be a poor description, but damage is worth noting, considering when it came to Sasuke's Susanoo it's ribs melted when Mei attacked it and A broke them with a back hand. So by comparison Madara's seems a lot sturdier. --[[User:Hawkeye2701|Hawkeye2701]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye2701|talk]]) 23:50, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
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:There is absolutely no way the picture of Elderly Madara is gonna be used. The picture we have is the closet to an image we've known him throughout the entire manga, not just 2 chapters. So I repeat, there is absolutely no way that picture is gonna be used.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 22:46, January 9, 2014 (UTC)
   
Isn't his Susanoo's sturdiness already rather well described? I mean, he have some mentions of what is able to damage it, and it goes without saying that things less than that will have little to no effect. I find it very overkill to go listing pretty much every attack it ever received, making a Susanoo Madara Damage Scale. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:58, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
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You don't have the authority to make that decision, Ultimate. I brought up this discussion so that everyone can decide which photo would be best. So far you and Omega have spoken out against it, and I've voiced why I'm for it, so let's see what everyone else thinks. My point still stands, the current photo isn't a living photo of him. The sole reason it was even considered was because we thought that's how he would look after being revived, since his eyes didn't burn out until the next chapter, so whether or not we use his elderly appearance, I don't think the current image is appropriate for the infobox. Those are just my thoughts. --[[User:M4ND0N|Mandon]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 00:33, January 10, 2014 (UTC)
   
Honestly didn't even read the article before I replied, probably should have, but if it's durability is already noted there's no point in gilding the lily. --[[User:Hawkeye2701|Hawkeye2701]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye2701|talk]]) 00:05, June 23, 2013 (UTC)
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:First, it's '''The'''Ultimate'''3''' and I accept TU3 for short. Second, ain't no way photo of old elderly Madara is gonna be used, especially when that is by far his least notable appearance in the manga/anime/whatever.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 02:16, January 10, 2014 (UTC)
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::Third a picture of him alive is preferred, but not when it is completely contradictory to what we have seen him in most of the series. We've seen old man Madara in two chapters. We've seen young, ready to fight Madara for a quarter of the manga. It's not rocket science on which one will be used. And beacuse you made this topic I will give you a hint; it will not be Elderly Madara.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 02:17, January 10, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Black Rods creation technique ==
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Does it matter what I call you? You know I'm talking to you so it matters not. Back on topic.. Old Man Madara is the most recent '''living''' picture of him. We used a photo of adult Nagato after the pain arc even though we technically saw a lot more of him as a child, so I don't exactly buy that argument. In any case I really don't care which photo we use, as long as it isn't a photo where he's reanimated. I'm going strictly by the reason we used it originally, which was that we thought that's how he would look after his true revival. It wasn't, so we should change it back to the old picture from Onoki's flashback or use a photo of him as an old man as a placeholder since it's more recent. I've raised my points and you've raised yours, and unless someone else comments there's no chance of it being changed anyways so let's see where this goes. --[[User:M4ND0N|Mandon]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 02:59, January 10, 2014 (UTC)
   
Soo...as we have seen, courtesy of chapter 636, Madara's ability to materialise his will into the black rods also allows him to control people remotely. Soo we've seen him infuse his will to make Black Zetsu, the rods and control Obito from a distance. Now does this warrant the creation of a dedicated technique article? [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 10:07, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
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:Yes what I'm called is very important. I don't call you MadaraFan01 do it?
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:But seriously the picture of him ''doesn't even look like he was Reincarnated'', the only way you'll know is if you read the manga. And we don't work for just them. We work for the fandom as a whole, and as a whole, adult Madara with red armor is his most iconic appearance. Old Man Madara is not. There is absolutely ''no reason'' to use an image of him at his most obscure, other than my personal president that we use images of them alive.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 03:07, January 10, 2014 (UTC)
   
So it's confirmed those rods are indeed Rinnegan Outer Path's ability and not something from Ten-Tails' body as our articles suggest. Those rods are "will" for sure since people can be controlled with them. Obito had them in his body since he massacred those Hidden Mist nin, that means Madara used Obito since day one T_T--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 10:11, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
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::Is there an ''actual'' precedent against edo tensei images? If the anime offers no good living options and, in fact, Madara has spent a majority of his screentime as an edo tensei, what's wrong with using it? When the anime reaches Hashirama's flashbacks then, sure, replace it with a living photo. But in the meantime...? '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 03:30, January 10, 2014 (UTC)
   
:Hum wherent the rods noted as an extension of Madara's Yin-Yang Release, rather than the Outer Path? Also note how when Obito's being control, his body is being covered in black matter, similar to how Black Zetsu was made which was noted as Yin-Yang, so there is a connection between it all. Though i ask again, is there enough now to make a technique article? [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 10:15, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
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:::No there isn't. Or at least there shouldn't be. I have just been very vocal in the past about, if available, having a picture of a character alive instead of the cracks and black eyes of Reincarnation. But Madara here shows no visible signs of Reincarnation so even by my old standards, he passes.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 03:32, January 10, 2014 (UTC)
::The rods were created using yin-yang release, the control is done through Outer Path--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 10:22, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::Ok now i'm confuzeled...if the control is done through the Outer Path, how the hell did Madara make Black Zetsu, if he didn't even had the Rinnegan at that point...because given how he exerted control over Obito, i'd say that and how BZ was made is ver much connected. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 10:27, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::Dude he had the Rinnegan already, it appeared during the end of his '''natural''' lifespan.--[[User:Omojuze|Omojuze]] ([[User talk:Omojuze|talk]]) 10:31, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::Madara made Black Zetsu from Yin-Yang Release. Read the bottom of [[Madara Uchiha#Ninjutsu|this section]] about Zetsu and you'll see. Elveonora is correct on this matter. [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 10:33, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::::Dude when he made Black Zetsu, he had already tore out his Rinnegan, plugged it into Nagato and slapped another Sharingan eye in it's place...and @Josh...the section says nothing about the Outer Path...and no one answered my question if by the info of the latest chapter do we have enough to warrant a technique article? [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 10:40, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
He didn't make BZ with Outer Path. BZ is Madara's will embodied using YYR, a creation, so are the rods, since they are inside of Obito's Hash part, his white half turns into a black one the same way as the part of white zetsu turned into black zetsu. The difference is that with Zetsu, he created an living avatar of his that carries his "will" and Obito's body is turning black because Madara's will is taking over from the rods. And I think it warrants an article, it's not exactly the same as six paths of pain, those are corpses moved with chakra like puppets, this is will controlling a living person. The remote transfer/control is an Outer Path technique, it's unlikely he would be able to do it without Rinnegan--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 10:44, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
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::::Sort of a convenient misrepresentation, no? Yet it still isn't a particularly good image. Are you going to insist on an inferior picture merely because of some not-actual guideline? I would point out that is in the same boat, where there ''are'' living options, but they aren't used because they are a) bad, and b) he's known better dead anyway.
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::::There's also Gari and Pakura, but they've probably got some complicated manga > anime reasoning I wouldn't follow... '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 03:48, January 10, 2014 (UTC)
   
:@DarkSusanoo You ask how he made Black Zetsu and that's what I was answering. As for the dedicated technique.... I would think it would since we've seen him able to use Yin-Yang Release to do quite a bit now. If anything, it should have a mention in his Abilities. [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 10:52, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
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:::::Not sure if you are still speaking to me or Mandon... If it's at me, I just don't want Elder Madara and see no reason to use it.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 03:57, January 10, 2014 (UTC)
   
But @Elve both are the same...his will materialised into an effect...you can say that he did to make BZ was the pretty much the same as Obito...so either ''both'' are Outer Path related (despite Madara not having a Rinnegan when he made BZ) or not.
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There's a difference. I'm not calling you something obscure that has no relevance to your name. if I call you ultimate you at least know I'm talking to you. It's not a big deal. Anyways, there are plenty of images to use Snapper. In fact, we've used them before we switched to the corrent photo. The greyscaled image of him with his gunbai for example, or the one from Onoki's flashback. And if we're allowed to use Edo Tensei photos, there are plenty of images better than the one we're currently using. --[[User:M4ND0N|Mandon]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 05:33, January 10, 2014 (UTC)
@Josh, the mention is already there, it takes up half of the section dedicated to his skills in Yin-Yang. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 11:08, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
You aren't getting it, the black rods and BZ are YYR creations, the chakra transmit/remote control isn't possible without a Rinnegan, is it? So the will taking over technique is Outer Path related--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:20, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
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:I was speaking to TheUltimateMuscle, just in case anyone wanted to know.
:Yes i got it that the BZ and the rods are YYR, but they are not Outer Path related...but what happened to Obito, hell his body turned black like BZ, so the creation of the rods and BZ and Obito's control are the same, which is not OP related. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 11:28, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
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:My point was that there are currently no good images of living Madara from the anime. He's either too old, too grayscaled, or wearing too much atypical clothing. In the absence of a good living image, I see no reason to not use a good dead image, at least until such time that there is a good living image. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 08:08, January 10, 2014 (UTC)
::Madara created these Zetsu matter through YYR, so he has complete control over it. These matter seems to work like "Edo Tensei", when at Madara's "will" gains a Black colored tone, when allowing it to have some autonomism has a white colored tone. And yes the control seems to be made through Outer Pass, my idea is almost the same as @Elv's. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 11:38, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::@Dark, ... Madara created BZ and the rods using YYR as his will embodied. Obito's body isn't turning into BZ, it's the will taking over. Why it's outer path is because it allows a Rinnegan user to transmit and control with the rods. If Madara had no Rinnegan, he would not be able to take over Obito--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:47, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::@Elveo: Why did the black "will" only take over the Zetsu-half of Obito? [[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 11:52, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::::@Koto Because Madara only control the Zetsu matter at his will through OP, he can't control Obito's own body. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 12:02, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
Well that's something to be view latter...anyone else agrees to make a technique article? [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 20:01, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
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Well if we all come to an agreement that ET images with noticable ET traits like cracks and black sclera are okay, then we can easily snuff out a better image than the one we're currently using. --[[User:M4ND0N|Mandon]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 09:15, January 10, 2014 (UTC)
:Deserves an article or not? my opinion is that deserves. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 21:54, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
Here's how I understand the current state of events: Madara uses a yet article-less Yin-Yang Release technique to materialise his will into things. Madara has used this technique to manifest his will into a living thing, one of the Zetsu clones, creating Black Zetsu. In the chapter we saw Black Zetsu being made, we were also told that Zetsu in general were made with Yin-Yang Release, but we don't see those being made, so we can't say anything without speculating, so whether it's the same technique or a different one, it's not the case here, just getting that one out of the way for now. Madara has also used the YYR that created BZ to create those chakra receivers. They're his will materialised, and Madara can apparently force those that bear his will to carry it out. Now, we have seen those receivers being used to channel chakra into another being (as chakra disruption blade), and to channel the power of the Outer Path, in a way that binds one's power, akin to to fūinjutsu, if not channelling an actual fūinjutsu. Now, I don't think these particular applications stem from the will manifesting YYR. I think this is similar in a way to how Gaara's shield of sand works. It's something (chakra receiver/shield of sand) that has one specific origin (YYR/Shukaku's sand control) that ended up being operated by another power (Outer Path/Karura's will). I do believe it warrants an article, but we have to be mindful of what to say it does. Will Manifesting/Materialising/Materialisation Technique seems to fit all the cases we've seen Madara doing it. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 00:29, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
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:Not sure if it's still relevant, but to answer your question about why Gari and Pakura images, pictures of them Reincarnated was chosen because the only not-Reincarnated pictures that exist for them is Anime-Only, and everyone should be well aware by now how much that is a buzz-word around here.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 12:31, January 10, 2014 (UTC)
: I agree with you Sempai for the most part...but given how it was almost identical, how Obito became controled by Madara and how BZ was made (the black matter spreading through their bodies) that it can't be a coincidence. Plus i'll repeat i don't see the rods as Outer Path-related thing...maybe they were adapted to serve as medium to the technique's power, but if Madara made the rods and BZ and did not have a Rinnegan at the time...plus we know YYR does not require a Rinnegan. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 00:40, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
 
::Madara is enforcing his will through its materialised form that was in Obito. He did the same thing to create BZ, but there he poured the will himself instead of using an already materialised form. We kinda agree on the Outer Path angle. Roads were not created by it, but can be used with it. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 01:36, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::Will Materialisation Technique seems to do the trick in terms of name. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 01:42, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
@Darksusanoo, you still are missing the point. No one says those rods were created using Outer Path. But for his will to take over Obito, that's what the Outer Path is needed for. @Omn, we will have to sort out the Ten-Tails rod thing as well. They were likely used to control it. Also for the rods, it would appear that they are created using Hashirama's Living Clone and have some connection with Hash cells or something--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:40, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
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Why can't we make a compromise??? Do people have to be so stubborn and egocentric? Can someone explain why can't we use both manga and anime images? In my opinion that would be the best, with manga image of his current revived status and anime image of his last recent living appearance, which would be (fortunately not to Ulti's delight) the grandpa one--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:43, January 10, 2014 (UTC)
   
I don't quite think the Hashirama clone is needed to create them. As far as we know, Madara simply inserted one of the rods in the clone, maybe as safeguard, or to make sure that everything created with it was tainted with his will. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 15:34, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
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:The issue is convoluted and stupid (and yes I am talking about myself too). Some don't want anime images at all if a manga one exists, some what uniform consistency, some has followed through with the manga and anime depictions but then the problem comes how do you incorporate that with every character, then the whole Part I and Part II thing passed. Then you add this one where really come on, Grandpa Madara is in no way iconic enough for an image, but based on the very unofficial rule I myself championed would/could be used and here is the discussion.
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:It's really a big mess.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 20:30, January 10, 2014 (UTC)
   
== True main villain? ==
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Is there any reason why we can't just use tabs for Madara like the infobox for Obito? Also, Elve has a point, I think manga images could and should be appropriate under special circumstances. If you could take a minute to go to the One Piece Wikia and look at the infoboxes for each character, you'll see that they use both manga and anime images in separate tabs on both the pre-timeskip and post-timeskip sections in said box. So like, say a character that appeared in the first half appears in the second half, then a manga image is used until an anime photo comes along, and even then both images are still there to view. Obviously both our wiki and theirs have completely different code so I'm not sure how that would work, but it's something to consider. --[[User:M4ND0N|Mandon]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 00:28, January 11, 2014 (UTC)
   
This is more of a hindsight thing I wanna get going on. If Obito truly does die from casting the Rinne Tensei and Madara is restored to full form, should we consider him the legitimate main antagonist of the entire series? I mean if Obito just drops dead like that, clearly he wasn't ever anything more than a tool of Madara's.. and from how close the series is to ending, I just don't see Orochimaru pulling a 180 and being an antagonist again. Thoughts? --[[User:M4ND0N|M4ND0N]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 15:26, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
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:There is no reason to not use tabs for Madara, but on the same token there is barely a reason we do use tabs on Tobi. In terms of sticking four images in the infobox, I don't know if our infoboxes are even designed to do that. It's possible, but we had to wait like half a year to get a functional two tab thing working and I don't know if it works beyond that.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 00:38, January 11, 2014 (UTC)
:That seemed pretty obvious to me ever since the real Madara was fully revealed as well as how his character was fully explored. Madara felt like the Emperor Palpatine to Obito's Darth Vader and the relationship between the two reflects just that. That said, this isn't really a forum so I'd advise putting this as an actual topic of discussion as opposed to being on Madara's talk page. --[[User:DementedP|DementedP]] ([[User talk:DementedP|talk]]) 16:49, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
 
::Orochimaru isn't dead. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 18:04, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::.....yeah I'm pretty sure that was mentioned when Orochimaru was referred to doing a 180. That said, I don't think it's far-fetched to say that Orochimaru and Sasuke may still be plotting something (be it good or bad), and whether or not they'll become villains again is pretty much up in the air. --[[User:DementedP|DementedP]] ([[User talk:DementedP|talk]]) 18:18, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
Sorry if you got the wrong idea.. I wasn't trying to use this as a forum. I started the discussion purely in context to how we phrase the article should Obito die next chapter. I mean in a sense of should we list Madara as the main antagonist and Obito as simply a "major antagonist"? It's pretty dumb to bring it up before the chapter comes out I know, but I'm curious what others think. --[[User:M4ND0N|M4ND0N]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 00:09, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
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We could just do an "Alive" and "Reincarnated" thing for the infobox. We don't need 4 tabs for that. EDIT -- But then there's the question of whether or not there's a real point in using multiple tabs. If edo tensei images are acceptable, and he already appears with his iconic look, then I don't really see a reason to care.. to be perfectly honest. Preferably an image that shows him at a better angle would be more ideal but that's just me. --[[User:M4ND0N|Mandon]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 01:25, January 11, 2014 (UTC)
:The one issue I have with calling Madara the main antagonist of the series is that he wasn't around for the majority of the series, and even with the events he had a hand in plotting, he wasn't the one to carry the overwhelming majority of them out. He may have set the frame for the main picture, but he's not the one who pulled the strings from behind the curtains. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 00:29, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
 
But if Obito does die next week then it proves that he was merely a pawn and not a genuine main villain. The bottom line is that if it wasn't for Madara, most of the events in the series wouldn't have transpired and while Obito was acting as Madara, he did change his personality significantly to mimic his mentor.. I think Obito acting as Madara kept his presence alive and even though his formal introduction wasn't till much later, he's still been a significant part of the story for a very long time since Obito started using his name. --[[User:M4ND0N|M4ND0N]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 05:47, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
 
:As omnibender said madara hasn't been seen carrying out his plan throughout the series, but him and obito are the ones that caused Naruto(series) to happen he wasn't gthe one who made things how they are that was of course obito prior to the series but i wouldn't put madara as the main antagonist just yet, because you could say orochimaru was the main antagonist after the chunin exams or the akatsuki but he is the main antagonist that was behind the curtains but i wouldn't edit his article for something like this yet --[[User:ROOT 根|ROOT 根 ]] ([[User talk:ROOT 根|talk]]) 10:41, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
Main Antagonists aren't always characters who directly acted on their plans themselves but most of the time are people who set them into motion. If Obito was just a pawn then that would mean Madara is the true mastermind, despite his considerable absence from the series. He plotted everything and simply left his lackeys to carry it all out, i don't think that's so rare for a main antagonist to do. he might not be the nemesis of the main character, I'm pretty sure that's still Sasuke, but he is the one who's behind virtually all of the evil occuring in Part II, although Orochimaru is more of the main antagonist of Part I i think.--[[Special:Contributions/77.101.215.79|77.101.215.79]] ([[User talk:77.101.215.79|talk]]) 12:29, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
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Alive and reincarnated have barely any differences. superficial at best so that would not make sense. And It'll have to suffice until more usable living!Madara images are available.
   
Let's see: Madara is responsible for Nagato and Obito. Well, can't there be 2 "major antagonists" ?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:31, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
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''"Old Man Madara is the most recent '''living''' picture of him. We used a photo of adult Nagato after the pain arc even though we technically saw a lot more of him as a child"''-exactly. We use current in series pictures if available. adult Nagato=not a flashback. Old Madara=flashback.
   
Usually there's just one main antagonist but if the series is subdivided into sagas, say like Dragon ball with the Freeza, Cell and Buu Sagas, there can be multiple lesser antagonists to fill the role. --[[Special:Contributions/77.101.215.79|77.101.215.79]] ([[User talk:77.101.215.79|talk]]) 15:32, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
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"Sort of a convenient misrepresentation, no?"- well its what works best. If you notice Hanzo has a similar situation. the anime fucked up and gave him normal eyes, so instead of having both anime/manga images, we use one of ET Hanzo because in canon he has dark sclera so it works.--[[User:RexGodwin|RexGodwin]] ([[User talk:RexGodwin|talk]]) 11:49, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
   
But given all that's happened I'd say Madara is the main antagonist of Part II and Orochimaru is the main antagonist of Part I. But yeah, putting Sasuke into consideration it's probably too early to make that call.. But Kishi said Naruto would be done in 2014 so it's a bit too late for Oro or Sasuke to become the new main villain[s] of the series I think. --[[User:M4ND0N|M4ND0N]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 16:40, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
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==Did Anyone Notice?==
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Did anyone notice two of the following things:
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*Madara was able to go into sage mode after absorbing Hashirama's chakra, but Hashirama himself wasn't in sage mode
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*Madara bit his arm, causing it to bleed, to manipulate the rods in Hashi's back upon his resurrection.--[[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 04:03, January 14, 2014 (UTC)
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:Really? I haven't had an idea why did he bite his arm all along.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:51, January 14, 2014 (UTC)
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::Well, you can see Hashirama's senjutsu chakra flowing from Hashi's body to Madara's through the wound Madara caused on himself by biting his left arm.--[[User:JOA20|JOA20]] ([[User talk:JOA20|talk]]) 12:59, January 14, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Yea, but is it significant, and how did he access Hashi's senjutsu, if he wasnt in sage mode? He wasnt even gathering any at all in their fight.--[[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 15:07, January 14, 2014 (UTC)
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::::There were these clones of Naruto that despite being used to gather senjutsu chakra to allow the original body to re-enter Sage Mode didn't have the Sage Mode markings. And Hashirama was still for some moments, enough in my humble opinion to gain enough senjutsu chakra for Madara.--[[User:JOA20|JOA20]] ([[User talk:JOA20|talk]]) 15:27, January 14, 2014 (UTC)
   
i say yes what about you--[[Special:Contributions/176.252.171.147|176.252.171.147]] ([[User talk:176.252.171.147|talk]]) 17:12, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
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==Hear Me Out==
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Ok, so i'm trying to edit Madara's article according to what occurred in today's chapter. I want to exercise these points, but seeing as there is much stress over what goes in/out Madara's page, i want to run by you guys first. I mean, one slip up and you're called a "Madara Fanboy".(haha!) Here we go:
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*Madara's Susano'o shield (mabye make into a seprete ''unnamed technique''?
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*Madara's reflexes to avoid Tobirama's Hiraishin (twice?)
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*TELEKINESIS!!!!?
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*And his ability to just outright rip the tailed beat right out of both Naruto and Bee.--[[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 14:12, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
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:*No.
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:*Yes.
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:*No!
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:*Yeah, drop the beat! No, he just took less longer than Obito did. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 14:15, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
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WOW!! That made me laugh out loud, haha. But a few Q's that need A's.
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No to making the Susano'o shield a separate tech? and are we still discussing the "levitation" to be a probable unnamed Rinnegan tech?--[[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 14:20, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
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:Yes to no and no, that's conclusion-jumping and we don't do that here. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 14:26, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
   
I would say that Sasuke is more of Naruto's antithesis but not an antagonist. as of yet he has done more to make himself such a thing than he has to be a true Antagonist, given his goals I'd say he still won't be an Antagonist even if he does fight Naruto. Madara meanwhile has schemed for a good few decades to take over the world, opposed the main cast directly with various forms of danger, usually through Obito and Akatsuki, and has ultimately spun the world into perpetual disorder with the utterance of his name. --[[Special:Contributions/77.101.215.79|77.101.215.79]] ([[User talk:77.101.215.79|talk]]) 19:38, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
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The shield is no different in my opinion that a ribcage manifestation, a pic for the variant would be nice tho--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:29, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
   
:'''''"The one issue I have with calling Madara the main antagonist of the series is that he wasn't around for the majority of the series, and even with the events he had a hand in plotting, he wasn't the one to carry the overwhelming majority of them out. He may have set the frame for the main picture, but he's not the one who pulled the strings from behind the curtains."'''''
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Either way, I strive to only make appropriate edits. So ill get to it. Revision of my edit would be helpful.--[[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 14:34, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
:I'd normally agree with this, if it weren't for the fact that Madara actually showed up himself, essentially taking over for Obito as the main leading figure of the war to continually push his plan. If Madara had remained a shadowy figure all throughout, I'd agree that Obito is the main antagonist, but the fact remains that he actually showed up himself and his character is even fully explored to solidify his presence. Not to mention, Madara's influence is ultimately what led Obito to do the things he did. Despite being more prominently shown in the series, Obito is treated almost as a second-in-command to Madara. This is very evident in the way they interact each other. Sure Obito is doing this based on his own reasons, but it ultimately makes him an enforcer of Madara's plans and not necessarily based on his own separate one. Heck he even pretended to be "Madara" on behalf of Madara, so Madara's presence and influence is definitely felt throughout the series even before his actual in-person appearance. While I agree that Madara can technically be considered as the main antagonist of the series, I think that Obito's role as a major antagonist should still be noted (just like with Orochimaru and Nagato) --[[User:DementedP|DementedP]] ([[User talk:DementedP|talk]]) 07:03, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
Well after thinking about it some more, I don't think it's entirely fair to discredit Obito's role up until now. While it's true that he was acting as Madara, the fact remains that it wasn't 'really' Madara doing all the stuff up until now. I think it's fair to say Obito's main antagonist role ended after he was unmasked. Maybe we could say Obito was the main antagonist up to the Shinobi World War arc? And then say Madara is the main antagonist during the Ten Tails Revival Arc up to the current point in the story. Orochimaru was the main villain of Part I so I can't really say either Obito or Madara are the main villains of the series as a whole, since they have little influence over the events occurring prior to Part 2. --[[User:M4ND0N|M4ND0N]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 17:00, June 30, 2013 (UTC)
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== The paralyzing air. ==
:That's a fair enough assessment. I was reading the early parts of the war and it seems fair to give Obito some credit for his work (specifically when he donned a new outfit as the "Masked Man"). That sound perfect though, Obito was definitely the main antagonist up to the Shinobi World War arc, whereas Madara's reveal (and backstory) essentially turned him in to the main antagonist (from Ten Tails Revival Arc up to the current story). That's also true in regards to how their influence only came about in Part 2. --[[User:DementedP|DementedP]] ([[User talk:DementedP|talk]]) 19:37, July 2, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
LOL The new chapter kind of made this entire debate an ironic assumption-fest. I guess Madara's a secondary villain now? --[[User:M4ND0N|M4ND0N]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 20:17, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
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Hi everyone, wanna ask a question. In the last chapter, didn't Madara seems or can we assumed the he used Banchou Tenin? THANKYOU [[User:Small brother|Small brother]] ([[User talk:Small brother|talk]]) 20:09, January 17, 2014 (UTC)
   
:Haha so true! I can see what Kishimoto is sort of doing though, in the sense that he's having the main fight be fought by the younger generation as opposed to the older ones. Certainly an idea I have no objections to, and at least in this regard Obito's role is not all done yet as far this whole thing goes. --[[User:DementedP|DementedP]] ([[User talk:DementedP|talk]]) 18:44, July 6, 2013 (UTC)
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:Didn't function like Basnsho Ten'in. Bansho Ten'in pulls the target towards the user. Madara stopped Sasuke while he was jumping at him and held him there.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 20:15, January 17, 2014 (UTC)
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::It's obvious Nagato didn't show us everything the Rinnegan has to offer. After all, the eyes are Madara's or rather Izuna's ._. Well, you get it. For all we know, each Path has 5 or more techniques, making it even more overpowered than already is when used to its fullest extent--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:11, January 17, 2014 (UTC)
   
== First seen ==
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Then, we could assume that come from the Rinnegan? I'm not so sure, but Madara was looking at Sasuke when it happened. Like the Rinbou Hingoku, but not sure. THANKYOU [[User:Small brother|Small brother]] ([[User talk:Small brother|talk]]) 08:39, January 18, 2014 (UTC)
   
F
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== Fighting Sasuke Blind ==
   
Madara is actually seen and revealed as tobi at the end of shippuden #125
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Hi there. I know everyone has been trying very hard to trim down Madara's page, but I had one small piece of information that I think should be added to Madara's Taijutus section. It is worth mentioning that in Chapter 657 he was capable of fighting Sasuke (who was armed with his sword and Mangekyo Shiringan) to a standstill even though Madara was completely blind at the time. --[[User:Raizerninja|Raizerninja]] ([[User talk:Raizerninja|talk]]) 00:34, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
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:Sort of mentioned already, indirectly, in the ninjutsu section, where his sensing is mentioned. The reason why he was able to do it blind is because sensing made up for it. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 00:52, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
   
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== Rinbo: Hengoku is Deva Path ==
   
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Rinbo: Hengoku is Deva Path. It can repel which is exactly one of the main abilities of the Deva Path. Remember the Deva Path includes repelling and attracting as its abilities. I don't see how it's speculative to say Rinbo: Hengoku is Deva Path. Is obvious Rinbo: Hengoku is a Deva Path jutsu since it repels. This is enough evidence so say Rinbo: Hengoku is Deva Path.--[[User:Rinneganmaster|Rinneganmaster]] ([[User talk:Rinneganmaster|talk]]) 04:01, January 26, 2014 (UTC)
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:What if it's a technique that sends some kind of invisible chakra punch? Like taijutsu, but even faster and with chakra? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 04:22, January 26, 2014 (UTC)
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It's already stated in the Rinbo: Hengoku article that Rinbo: Hengoku has an invisible force that is powerful enough to repel the tailed beasts so is not a chakra punch. This shows Rinbo: Hengoku has a repulsive force. Also Deva Path is stated to have attractive and repulsive forces. Based on this Rinbo: Hengoku's parent jutsu is Deva Path since it has a repulsive force similar to Shinra Tensei.--[[User:Rinneganmaster|Rinneganmaster]] ([[User talk:Rinneganmaster|talk]]) 05:04, January 26, 2014 (UTC)
   
[[User:Rhythian|Rhythian]] ([[User talk:Rhythian|talk]]) 19:38, July 2, 2013 (UTC)Rhythian
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You do realize that chakra is usually invisible, right? Now, sure it's likely it is a Deva Path technique. But the wiki finds it best to keep out speculation, which is what this is, really. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 07:59, January 26, 2014 (UTC)
   
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Even though its invisible it is still agreeable that it has a repulsive force. Considering the fact it was used by the rinnegan and it has a repulsive force, Rinbo: Hengoku is a Deva Path for sure. Its not speculation if it clearly demonstrates one of the main abilities of the parent jutsu.--[[User:Rinneganmaster|Rinneganmaster]] ([[User talk:Rinneganmaster|talk]]) 19:33, January 26, 2014 (UTC)
   
tobi is actually obito [[User:Actionmanrandell|Actionmanrandell]] ([[User talk:Actionmanrandell|talk]]) 23:56, July 2, 2013 (UTC)actionmanrandell[[User:Actionmanrandell|Actionmanrandell]] ([[User talk:Actionmanrandell|talk]]) 23:56, July 2, 2013 (UTC)
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== Missing Tools? ==
   
'''how will the outer paths work this time'''
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I think their are some tools and weapons that are missing, and that should be added, such as the shakujo, and the chakra receivers are some of the weapons that are missing, how about adding that, it makes sense since he used them in his most recent battle in the war. Another thing worth mentioning is partners shouldn't it include Izuna, Spiral Zetsu and Zetsu.?--[[User:JustaNobody|JustaNobody]] ([[User talk:JustaNobody|talk]]) 20:19, February 5, 2014 (UTC)
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:Could you please properly format your text instead of making it look like a ransom note made of newspaper articles? About your questions, no. Chakra receiver was long changed to a jutsu page regarding how they come to be instead of having several different tool variations. He's not yielding an actual shakujo, he's just making the chakra take the form of one. Obito isn't listed as using them either. Unless they give that an actual name and call it an actual tool, like the did with Sword of Nunoboko, that doesn't happen. In the context of two-men teams, Madara was not partnered with any of those. With Izuna, he was alongside his entire clan, Zetsu clones aren't partners to him, their minions. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 22:34, February 5, 2014 (UTC)
   
when nagato used Outer Path: Samsara of Heavenly Life Technique to bring back the villages to life and there souls were in the crossroads: the technique works By channelling their power through the King of Hell, the Rinnegan wielder can re-infuse new life force energy to the bodies of those who have died. With their rejuvenated bodies acting as an anchor. but in this case Madara is not in the cross roads he is bound to a host body by the edo tensei so its not actually his body therefore there would be nothing to anchor his soul to. plus beside if it uses the body that is hosting him to wouldn't the samsara resurrect said body instead? just wondering
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== Missing another unique ability? ==
   
[[User:Actionmanrandell|Actionmanrandell]] ([[User talk:Actionmanrandell|talk]]) 00:03, July 3, 2013 (UTC)actionmanrandell[[User:Actionmanrandell|Actionmanrandell]] ([[User talk:Actionmanrandell|talk]]) 00:03, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
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I think he is missing another unique ability that he possesses and shares with both Zetsu and Spiral Zetsu, namely his ability to telepathic communicate with both of the former characters. So is it worth mentioning?--[[User:JustaNobody|JustaNobody]] ([[User talk:JustaNobody|talk]]) 20:38, February 5, 2014 (UTC)
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:No, because he's never done it. Stop trying to hype Madara with every edit. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 22:34, February 5, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Izanagi ==
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I am just trying my best to contribute not to hype him up. That's all.--[[User:JustaNobody|JustaNobody]] ([[User talk:JustaNobody|talk]]) 22:48, February 8, 2014 (UTC)
Where was it stated, that Madara had the jutsu? Obito does, but where does Madara states, or shows that he does?--— [[User:Kinglink15|Kinglink15]] ([[User talk:Kinglink15|Kinglink15]]) 03:40, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
:Madara taught Obito how to use Izanagi (the Uchiha kinjutsu in chapter 606) and also has the prerequisite for using it (Sharingan), thus he is logically a user of the technique himself.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 03:46, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
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He has done, it and in fact he did it to black zetsu, he told black zetsu telepathically that he was going to play with the 5 kages a little longer before he set out on the plan, and he told black zetsu what to do for the plan.. all via telepathic link to one another. [[User:ItachiWasAHero|ItachiWasAHero]] ([[User talk:ItachiWasAHero|talk]]) 11:46, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
::Kinglink15 is right though. Izanagi and Izanami are techniques that all Uchiha/Sharingan wielder can/would (in the case of being in the clan) learn in theory. That does not however mean he's used the technique as far as we know. It can just as easily be mentioned when Obito learned it in the trivia. We put too much into seeing techniques in infoboxes to validate them.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 07:02, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
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:Yet again, every Zetsu can talk to each other via telepathy. I think that's just a common thing that comes with them, just as they don't need food or water. I guess Madara can communicate with Black Zetsu because it's basically a copy of himself (compare Yamato and his Wood Clone, they can do such things too). [[User:Idontcareaboutmyname|Idontcareaboutmyname]] ([[User talk:Idontcareaboutmyname|talk]]) 12:08, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
:::As it is now, the other Six Paths techniques are not listed under Madara's techniques, so it's strange that Izanagi is, when Madara taught them to Obito as well. Why was Izanagi's inclusion decided originally?--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 07:32, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
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:::Mentioning a chapter would be useful. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 15:03, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
::::Again back and forth people? I see it some people decide on something only for others later to ruin it. The decision was to list Madara because he taught Obito Uchiha kinjutsu and Yin-Yang release, Izanagi is both--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:17, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
So please, anyone tell me...who else could have taught Izanagi to Obito? Or anyother of the Six Paths Technique while we're on the subject? If one can teach something, it's a logical assumption they can also use it...and Madara being the most powerful memeber of the Uchiha clan, a man with the power of the First Hokage and the Rinnegan and a man who has clearly dabbled extensively in the techniques of Sage, which include Yin-Yang. He has the skill, he had the time to learn them, he knows enough of them to teach them to someone else. It speaks for itself...let it die already. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 13:40, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
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I don't think it is general telepathy, only telepathy to his will, black zetsu. I don't remember chapter number but
:So list Sasuke as a Izanami user, he learned it theoretically with Itachi and thats a general skill for Uchihas, if he knows the theory he is a user right? Thats what is being used with Madara as well. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 14:28, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
 
::Dan, we are usually in agreement with eachother, but not here. Don't start acting crazy now. OF COURSE SASUKE SHOULDNT BE LISTED MAN! It was actually stated that Madara taught these techniques to Obito, right? So why even bring up that Sasuke scenario? Was it said that Itachi '''taught''' Izanami to Sasuke? No. So how would your example apply? It doesn't. Remember Minato people! It was said that he created the Rasengan or when we were told Tobirama was a user of EDO-TENSEI. We listed them before we '''saw''' them do anything, right? So obviously, you don't have to be '''seen''' doing anything to be listed as a user. It's clearly enough to have some sort of mention to add them as users. And if logic points in that direction, that's ok too. [[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 14:39, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::Yes, Obito could've picked up a scroll and just as easily read about the technique much like how all the other several dozen Uchiha who used to use the techniques in the past. I'll be the first to agree that there needs to be some consistency with the conditions under which we add people as users but simply because Madara said he'll teach Obito the kinjutsu doesn't mean he's ever used it. This isn't exactly something you can physically shown someone and they replicate it. There is a difference between using something and teaching someone how to use something.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:43, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::Yes, there is a difference. But how big is the difference? How can you teach someone something, you had no experience with, nor applied yourself? In Naruto, everything someone has taught someone else, they can clearly use it themselves. [[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 14:46, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::::Lack of consistency and bias will once hurt this place a lot I'm afraid. But your point is a good one Cerez, talking about the last sentence. Nevertheless, I'm a bit uncertain if we wouldn't find more cases in which a character is being listed as a user of something that he was noted to have been taught/known but is yet to be seen using it, so. I just can't recall an example as a counter-argument at this point, there must be one though, I hope ._.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:48, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::::@Sorry Koto but i have to disagree wit you now :(. Look at Kakashi teaching Naruto how to use Wind Release? And Kakashi is not a user, he only has a advanced knowledge on the subject. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 14:49, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::::::No, Dan. He did teach him how to use wind release, he taught him how to determine his element and mix it with jutsu. The principle is different from the actual application. But on the main point, there's a perfect example in Primary Lotus or even the Shadow Leaf Dance technique. Guy taught them to Rock Lee, obviously. But he has yet to be seen using either of them. [[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 14:55, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::::::@Koto "mix it with jutsu" isn't teaching how to use it? It is... So this shows that someone can teach something if he knows enough to teach it to another. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 14:59, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
Given the complexity of Izanagi, i find it difficult for Obito not to have learn it from Madara from a visual/practical standpoint and we know he had replacement Sharingan...plus by Madara's terms, he said he was going to teach him Uchiha kinjutsu, the Six Paths Techniques and Yin-Yang Release ones....given how two out the those three parameters are what makes Izanagi. Also another thing to consider is that Madara molded Obito to in his image, to maintain the idea ''Madara'' was still alive, soo both mens skillsets had to be reasonably similar. So to say Obito could do it and Madara can't doesn't make a lot of sense...[[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 22:08, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
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http://naruto.answers.wikia.com/wiki/What_is_Madara's_trump_card
:@Dark the question here is that someone like Madara having a vast knowledge on the subject could easily teach Obito how to do it without being a user, like Kakashi did with Naruto, and i will talk again about Itachi's Izanami, Sasuke did not realize how Itachi used Izanami, but Itachi explained to him after using it, could be Sasuke a Izanami user? Obvious... From what is being said here. Now, who teached Itachi about Izanami? Maybe he read a scroll or sort of a Uchiwa plate for that, i can't see someone teaching Izanami to Itachi being that he left the village soon and had no further contact with the clan. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 12:55, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
::@Dan...your example is flawed because your mixing the teacher with the student in your examples. Sasuke may have learned the theroretical basis of how Izanami worked...he also understands the workings of Izanagi...but he never used them. On the other hand Madara taught Obito how to do it...and Obito's Izanagi is the most perfect one shown so far...to have that kind of jutsu requires more than theoreical knowledge, and Izanagi to me is a jutsu that requires teaching from a practical standpoint. Why wouldn't the most powerful of the Uchiha not be capable of using one of their most powerful dojutsu. Also if the idea was to make Obito into Madara, it would be suspicious that he one would use it if he never could in the first place. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 13:42, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::@Dark and how about the Jinchūriki sealing techniques? To be exact, the Ten Tails sealing technique, that is really complex, right? In order to learn the technique he would need to testify it? Do you believe he saw it?
 
   
And for my examples, take the Kakashi/Naruto WR example, is enough, the Itachi/Sasuke Izanami is just a way to use the same logical all the way around. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 14:03, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
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This talks about the chapter basically. [[User:ItachiWasAHero|ItachiWasAHero]] ([[User talk:ItachiWasAHero|talk]]) 21:55, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
:Kakashi and the WR is a bit flawed as well, because first Kakashi taught him how to learn his elemental affinity...and to teach him how to use it, he had to get Asuma's help...a skilled Wind Release user to push the point...and in regards to the Ten-tails sealing technique, i'm more than sure the Sage and Madara can also use them...the Sage because he was the first jinchuriki and Madara because it was his plan to become the new one. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 14:49, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
::But how Obito learned it? Saw Madara using it? ofcourse not, if so, Madara was a Jinchūriki, that only explains that someone can teach something without being a user at all. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 14:53, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::The case is not about whether or not Madara can use it, because more likely than no he can. It's about the fact that the infobox is being "abused" in the sense that techniques a person has never '''used''' are being listed under there. Derived/parent techniques are understandable, but he's never used this technique. The problem is that we have no precedence or guideline to go off what is and what isn't added to the infobox as jutsu for a character...--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 16:25, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::@Cerez but some are defending Izanagi's permanence at Madara's infobox because they believe he can use it... And even that we can't be sure, so there is no way he should stay listed as a Izanagi user, that should be changed. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 16:42, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::::Because if someone can teach a technique as complex as this: A dojutsu-based forbidden technique of their own clan, a Yin-Yang based one... they have to be able to use it. Madara said he was going to teach Obito, Uchiha kinjutsu, so far there are only two of these and Obito only showed one. We have to assume the basic principle that if one character can teach a technique to another character, they have to be able to use on some basic level in order to pass it on to someone else, unless there's direct evidence to the contrary. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 17:42, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::::Kakashi and Naruto WR example settles this. Kakashi can't use and teached Naruto how to use it into his technique, i know your point of view isn't that bad either, but it is a big speculation, and that shouldn't be at the infobox. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 17:46, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
: It does not settle anything...Kakashi only taught him how to identify his elemental affinity and the initial notions in it's use and he still required an alternative teaching way to do so and Naruto still had to require the help of an actual Wind Release user to learn on both a theoretical and practical standpoint. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 18:14, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
::Ok you don't want to see any point of view but your own. You say that no one could learn Izanagi without seeing it, so tell me how did Danzo learned Izanagi? Did someone used it so he could learn? @Dark be reasonable. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 19:12, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
::I am being reasonable:
 
:::Obito was taken in by Madara. Fact
 
:::Madara said he would train Obito personally. Fact
 
:::Madara said he would teach him the following:
 
::::- Uchiha kinjutsu
 
::::- Yin-Yang Release
 
::::- The Six Paths Techniques
 
All of this...fact. What is Izanagi? An Uchiha kinjutsu and YYR technique.
 
I'm following the logical assumption here...if you can teach something, you can use it to some degree...that is the logic. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 19:22, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::::The only fact here is that Madara did not use it, and teaching something doesn't mean using it. That is a big assumption, don't know what the rest thinks. Where needing more opinions to close this matter. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 19:36, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::::How can you teach someone to use something effectively without knowing how to use it? It makes no sense whatsoever. But oww well, let's see what the rest of the people says. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 20:10, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::::::No one said he doesn't know how to use it, where saing he just never used it, so he can't be listed, there are more ways to teach or learn something without seeing it or using it. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 21:56, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
Ok, this discussion is wearing my patience thin, guys. Allow me to bring up some points.
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:Still needing something more specific. Madara versus the Five Kage spanned across three or four volumes. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 22:18, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
*When was Guy ever '''seen''' using the primary lotus? Never. Yet he is listed as a user.
 
*When was Mangetsu '''seen''' using the Seven Swords? Never. People have said he mastered them.
 
*When was the Sage ever '''seen''' using the Six Paths? Never. We only have mentions of him mastering the Rinnegan, so it's assumed he can use all the techniques.
 
There are thousands more I can bring up, im serious. You people seem to forget what the word ''USER'' means on our website. A "user" of a technique is someone who was mentioned to have been able, has been mentioned to have used, or has even been seen using the technique. As long as the latter fits in one of those three, they're automatically listed as a '''user'''. May I remind you of Tobirama? Gosh, for all we know he could have written on a scroll, the exact directions on how the technique works. How do we know he used it? Someone mentioned that they have, that's why. So with that example alone, you can clearly rule out that the character '''has to be seen using the technique'''. C'mon guys, lets use our minds logically and stay more consistent. It has started to piss a lot of people off. Though, im not entirely pissed, im worried that this crap will come up again.
 
Oh, and Dan, lay off the Kakashi and Wind Release example. You act as if he used the technique that Naruto developed. This is how your example should go:
 
* Kakashi knows how to find your affinity - taught it to Naruto.
 
* Kakashi knows how to mix your affinity with jutsu - taught it to Naruto.
 
That's all he did. Kakashi didn't use the Wind Release: Rasengan, or anyof its variations. Although, do I doubt he can learn the jutsu given enough time? Heck no, he could, but the fact of the matter is, he did not. [[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 22:59, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
:@Koto i am tired too, if you guys can't understand that Izanagi can be learned with a scroll or a Uchiwa plate i can't do nothing, see Danzo's example, and Itachi Izanami example, and Madara's himself, they learned it from an object and not from a training don't you think? Is so hard to accept that it is a conclusion without great fundamentals but a vague phrase? That is not a very logic thought, that is a big assumption (but by saying that is an assumption i am not saying that i am 100% right, and that you guys haven't a point). But is vague, i can't do no more here. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 23:11, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
::Dan, let me reply to your example and give you a question.
 
::::::I agree with what you say. You are totally right on when you say those people could have learned them from a scroll, or by some other means. But you need to give me the difference between this situation and the example in which Guy can use the Primary Lotus. What's your standing on that. Neither Madara, nor Guy have been seen using the techniques in mention. But yet Guy is listed as a user. [[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 23:19, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
:Perhaps because it is a technique of physical component, that has never been demonstrated being included in any available parchment, and his master's trainings were all practical and not theoretical, while in case of Izanagi, has been clearly demonstrated being contained in scrolls and Uchiwa plates. But the way you look at things is different from mine, and you will allways disagree if you can't accept that Madara's phrase is very vague and Izanagi learning content is different from PL. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 23:55, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
With Madara and Obito, the latter could have learned it elsewhere, even if very unlikely, since Madara trained him in areas that cover the technique's description. But on top of that, Madara is a boss, in theory, he can do anything and was leader of Uchiha--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:58, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
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::[http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Zetsu?diff=835883&oldid=835704] '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 22:28, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
:Yes i know that, this case is different, it is only a phrase that could lead 2 ways, practical and theoretical, but what was used? And i have no doubt that Madara can use it, look at what @Cerez said about this, i believe he is right. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 00:04, July 16, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
:Dan, with all due respect, all you did was assume, based on guesses. All that would have me do is ask you how Guy learned it.
+
That ^ solved it, chapter 657 page 10 [[User:ItachiWasAHero|ItachiWasAHero]] ([[User talk:ItachiWasAHero|talk]]) 22:31, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
::From his sensei?
 
::Why didn't his team have experience with technique?
 
::Could he have learned it from his teacher? Did he get the knowledge form a scroll.
 
::Did he create the technique?
 
You cannot answer a single one of those follow-up questions. No one can but Kishi. The difference here, with Madara and Obito, would be that Madara actually told Obito he would teach him the Uchiha Kinjutsu. If you brought this argument to Madara/Obito being able to use Izanagi, then you'd be right 100%. However, here we have a basis. No matter how ''"vague"'' you think Madara's statement was, it was said nonetheless. There are few meanings to what he said, so it shouldn't be vague to you anyway. All-in-all, the evidence stands strong, and you are assuming that Obito learned Izanagi another way, despite the fact that Madara clearly told us what he was going to teach it to him. [[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 00:07, July 16, 2013 (UTC)
 
:@Koto, and you can't answer no one of this but Kishi himself.
 
::::Did Madara used Izanagi so Obito could learn it?
 
::::Is really Madara capable of using Izanagi?
 
::::What was the method used by Madara to teach Izanagi to Obito?.
 
:This is why he can't be listed, because Izanagi has more than one learning method, you can not assume that Madara used it or is a user. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 11:31, July 16, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
== Height ==
+
Ok, so Madara spoke telepathically, but only with Black Zetsu, not Zetsu in general, as it was claimed in the beginning of this article. Probably something to do with BZ being part of his will. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 22:43, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
I don't recall seeing any measurements in his article in the databook. Did I not see it or is that just speculation? --[[User:KiumaruHamachi|KiumaruHamachi]] ([[User talk:KiumaruHamachi|talk]]) 23:06, July 21, 2013 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi
 
:You didn't. Several post-databook relevant characters have recently had their heights added by ItachiWasAHero, who discovered several character concept arts by Studio Pierrot, in which they're given. In the absence of new databook info, that is the most canon information we have. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 20:21, July 23, 2013 (UTC)
 
::Okay, I"m just making sure because I hold this wiki's no speculation allowed rule in high regards. Thank you Omni. --[[User:KiumaruHamachi|KiumaruHamachi]] ([[User talk:KiumaruHamachi|talk]]) 00:27, July 24, 2013 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi
 
   
== Profile Picture ==
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Absorbing Chakra isn't a unique trait. Several other shinobis have been capable of it. Unique means no one else is capable of it.[[User:Cloudtheavenger|Cloudtheavenger]] ([[User talk:Cloudtheavenger|talk]]) 07:46, March 20, 2014 (UTC)
  +
:: Unique can mean unusual or rare, he is one of only a few characters that has the ability to absorb chakra without needing to use a special technique to do it.[[User:TricksterKing|TricksterKing]] ([[User talk:TricksterKing|talk]]) 02:10, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
   
I figured I would bring this up. Would a profile picture change be acceptable? Say [[:File:Madara's Rinnegan.png|this image]]? Anything, honestly, would be better than the low quality, grayscale version, now that we have better anime shots of him. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 17:40, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
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Madara was able to use Susanoo without using his Rinnegan. What's to say he can't use the Preta Path without the Rinnegan as well?[[User:Cloudtheavenger|Cloudtheavenger]] ([[User talk:Cloudtheavenger|talk]]) 21:11, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
   
:I would like one where he was ''alive''.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 18:08, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
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== Introduction? ==
   
:: And I highly doubt we're going to get that. Besides, he will be an Edo Tensei for most of the rest of the anime, save for a flashback or two. If we ''really'' wanted something accurate, we'd have to show him as a crippled old man, and I don't think anyone will support that. Since he's still an Edo Tensei, even in the manga, Edo Tensei is most representative of the form he's taken in the series. Plus, the shot I linked to is in the daylight and he's facing the camera. Its a good shot to use. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 18:16, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
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I don't really understand what's so harmful about detailing certain facts about him in the intro. We do this with every single article for a character but all of a sudden it's clutter to mention that Madara's a Jinchuriki? Might as well do the same for the rest of them (Naruto, B, Roshi, etc) --[[User:M4ND0N|Mandon]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 07:44, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
:::I too would rather we use an alive image. If anything, we should get Onoki's flashback soon, that's an opportunity to get an alive image. Dunno if Madara still wearing a Konoha forehead protector would cause issues. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 18:22, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::: Would [[:File:Uchiha Madara alive.png|this]], then, be a suitable replacement. From the new episode. He's both alive, facing the camera, and in the same attire he's in in the current one, only its better quality and in color. Thoughts? ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 07:34, August 2, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::::I really hate the stereotypical grey scale of flashbacks television and movies. But I saw go for it.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 11:12, August 2, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::::This image could be used for a while until we get a better image of Madara in his lifetime wearing his famous uniform and holding his gunbai when the part of his past with Hashirama will be animated in the future. It's a good one by the way. [[User:Shakhmoot|<choose><option>http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a553/anaspet06/Shakhmootssign_zps2a261e68.png</option></choose>]][[User_talk:Shakhmoot|<sup>(Contact)</sup>]] 22:14, August 2, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
That isn't a very big improvement since the artwork of the new one takes place at night so it isn't a huge leap from the grayscaled version. Plus the old one had a better viewing angle and depicted him with his gunbai and armor, and actually showed him looking at the viewer. I say stick with the old one till we have a better version. there's no sense settling for an inferior placeholder for a slight boost in color when the old version worked just fine. --[[User:M4ND0N|M4ND0N]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 07:38, August 4, 2013 (UTC)
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:The introduction is supposed to be a brief introduction of the character, leading into the article. For a lot of characters (Notable offenders in my mind is Tobi, Madara, and Kurama) where their intro because a place where their entire background section and current chapter status had been stuffed. That is bad. If anything the introductions should have been made in a way that they could remain static forever, not changing at the whim of the newest chapter.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 11:21, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
   
== new fire style technique? ==
+
:That's a ridiculous argument. Naruto, B, etc. have been jinchuriki since the day they appeared, and as such being a jinchuriki is fundamental to their characters. Madara's been a jinchuriki for two chapters. Zero similarity. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 16:56, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
   
ok, for one thing, that new episode was awesome, but after he used the majestic fire annihilation, he used that one technique where he manifests multiple fireballs to attack the ninja. Shouldn't we make that a new technique?--[[User:Asian711|Asian711]] ([[User talk:Asian711|talk]]) 18:05, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
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== he is 179cm not 182cm ==
   
:[[Fire Release: Phoenix Sage Fire Technique]]--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 18:09, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
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Where is the proof for 182cm?? I am changing it back to 179 until databook, manga, or author himself give a number differing than 179 [[User:ItachiWasAHero|ItachiWasAHero]] ([[User talk:ItachiWasAHero|talk]]) 11:49, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
::Nothing to do...this one is bigger and more powerful, there's no concealed shuriken and the flames have a sphere form. It looks more like a barrage version of the Great Fireball Technique. Plus i believe there is also an unofficially named article for that. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 18:58, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
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:You could check the edit history of the infobox and ask the person who changed it directly. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 15:03, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Sources? ==
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== Summoning: Shinju? ==
I think it would help both old & new fans of the series; regarding the sources of where it says Madara Uchiha is said to be strongest member the Uchiha clan has ever produced, I am just saying it would be very helpful is all? As well as, regarding protecting the Uchiha from oppression by the Senju? --[[User:JustaNobody|JustaNobody]] ([[User talk:JustaNobody|talk]]) 19:16, July 26, 2013 (UTC)
 
:For the strongest, I think it came from chapter 385 page 16, chapter 386 page 10-11 and chapter 398 page 15. For protecting them, I would say chapter 399 page 8-16. [[User:Jacce|Jacce]] | [[User talk:Jacce|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jacce|Contributions]] 06:59, July 27, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
== Madara Uchiha trivia ==
+
Is this also worth adding that he had summoned the [[Ten-Tailed Beast]] to his list of techniques alongside [[Sage Mode]]? Just wondering is all.--[[User:JustaNobody|JustaNobody]] ([[User talk:JustaNobody|talk]]) 02:47, February 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
I noticed how the improper coloration of the Rinnegan in one of the early shippuuden episodes was put in the trivia for that so. Would anyone be willing to add the fact that Madara's Rinnegan actually is shown before he uses it? It happens when he looks at Naruto's incoming Massive Rasengan. It's not supposed to be shown until he uses it later against an incoming Rasenshuriken.--[[User:Kibuki91|Kibuki91]] ([[User talk:Kibuki91|talk]]) 01:15, July 27, 2013 (UTC)Kibuki91
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:Are we sure that was summoning and not the Gedo Mazo disappearing and Ten-Tails reappearing as part of its transformation? It seems to have disappeared out of the Uchiha Flame Formation last time it transformed.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 05:43, February 13, 2014 (UTC)
:That's more of an animation mistake then something that was deliberately changed in the anime adaptation. It's already listed in the anime-manga differences article, and in the episode article if I'm not mistaken. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 17:12, July 27, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
== rinne tensei related question ==
+
Gedo Mazo/Shinju are one and the same entity, all Rinnegan users can summon it.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:07, February 13, 2014 (UTC)
   
since he has the rinnegan, instead of having obito do it couldn't he just use rinne tensei on himself? --[[User:Caseather|Caseather]] ([[User talk:Caseather|talk]]) 07:32, July 27, 2013 (UTC)
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== Lightning Element ==
:Well, I'm not really sure, but I think that Madara couldn't because he had been reincarnated and not revived, and the user of the technique has to be alive. [[User:Leo Hatake|<span style="color:Orange; font-size:18px;">Leo</span>]][[User Talk:Leo Hatake|<span style="color:Green; font-size:18px">Hatake</span>]] 07:51, July 27, 2013 (UTC)
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Surely Madara should be attributed all elements? He has the Rinnegan and knows every other jutsu out there. The Rinnegan allowed Nagato to master all elements. It's all but been demonstrated that Madara has command of all elements.--[[User:Reliops|Reliops]] ([[User talk:Reliops|talk]]) 00:43, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
  +
: Madara's natural aptitude for ninjutsu may be similar to Hiruzen's and his possession of the Rinnegan certainly give him the "potential" to use all five elements, but that doesn't mean Madara has actually bothered to learn it. Steveo920, 19:50, February 15, 2014
  +
::Yes. Nagato is only listed as having them all because were told he learned them all. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 00:57, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Outer Path ==
+
==TRimming down==
I have a question: When and how was it stated that Madara was a user of the Outer Path? [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 19:10, July 27, 2013 (UTC)
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He have won thanks to the throne on performance and strength phenomenal, in many cases, can be seen well, why did you not understand is I do not want to pay tribute? {{Unsigned|Iloveinoxxx|01:16, February 16, 2014 (UTC)}}
  +
:Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 01:23, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
  +
::I have no idea what the OP is trying to say. Now, I usually try to keep the article from getting bloated from new info. Still feel like Madara's article is bigger than it should be though. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 01:27, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
  +
:::Madara's are not bloathed It is not the complete opposite it will be thorough. Or Seelentau, what is OP and mean what you?
  +
{{Unsigned|Iloveinoxxx|10:18, February 16, 2014 (UTC)}}
   
:He has the Rinnegan so he would automatically be able to use the Outer Path. Although, if this isn't referenced in the article, that's a bit of a conclusion to be making from nothing. --[[User:Speysider|Speysider]] <sup><small>[[User_talk:Speysider|Talk Page]] | [[User:Speysider/Images|My Image Uploads]] | [[User:Speysider/Tabber Code|Tabber Code]] | [http://youtube.com/LPSajuuk Channel]</small></sup> 19:12, July 27, 2013 (UTC)
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What the...? ._.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:21, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
::By that standart we'd had to add the full package of the Six Paths like the Sage has, yet we don't. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 19:14, July 27, 2013 (UTC)
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:: (- _-) I will not stand for his trolling behaviour.--'''NaviiGator''' ''('''A.K.A.'''KotoSenju)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 18:14, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
:::I actually think this is a remnant from when the black rods were thought to be an Outer Path ability. The Outer Path article has to be changed to conform to what we know now as well. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 20:04, July 27, 2013 (UTC)
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Why am I assuming your trolling am you are you in the world? If you do not understand, once again, read my question! By the way, I am a girl{{Unsigned|Iloveinoxxx|18:29, February 16, 2014 (UTC)}}
   
== Susanoo ==
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:::Oh this article is very bloated, and it is way bigger than it needs to be. I tried trimming it though, and the results were all reverted with small token removals. Honestly this article is just gonna be stupid big for no reason and there is very little that can be done with it.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 20:44, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
Doesn't it strike anyone, that I the recent chapter (641), Madara's "Final Susanoo" looks different from it's previous form? it looks larger, bulkier, and not to mention, it is covering Madara's complete susanoo, like large armor, with Madara inside of it. Doesn't this deserve mention? [[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 02:17, August 1, 2013 (UTC)
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::::Not quite. True, some users have a fixation with bloating this article through numerous small edits, but I usually revert those edits, since they only add more of the same, which this article doesn't need. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 16:21, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
:What are you talking about? It was still forming, hence the looks--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:35, August 1, 2013 (UTC)
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You guys do not understand, he is the strongest character and best, therefore, why, you need to have it does not explain everything, the best, the article of the largest he?[[User:Iloveinoxxx|Iloveinoxxx]] ([[User talk:Iloveinoxxx|talk]]) 14:18, February 18, 2014 (UTC)
  +
:I fear I may start disregarding your opinion on matters ILoveInoXXX. If for no other reason then how you stated why he should have a bloated article...--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:55, February 18, 2014 (UTC)
   
== New madara image ==
+
== On the issue of height, ==
   
Hi! i recently made this through trial and error of madara, i really would like it if it was put to use on madara's page! --[[User:AsuraDrago|AsuraDrago]] ([[User talk:AsuraDrago|talk]]) 20:29, August 1, 2013 (UTC)
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It seems Obito is the same height as Madara according to chapter 665, so maybe databook 4 will list Madara around 175cm instead. Just a quick point out of something is all [[User:ItachiWasAHero|ItachiWasAHero]] ([[User talk:ItachiWasAHero|talk]]) 09:51, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
   
[[File:Madara_arrival.jpg|thumb|full view of madara]]
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== 667 info ==
   
:1) We don't just add every random image uploaded here to articles, they are added if they serve a use on the page.
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It seems that the 8th gate causes Red Steam and Madara has fought and survived against 8th gate users in the past as evidenced by him even knowing about the red steam. [[User:ItachiWasAHero|ItachiWasAHero]] ([[User talk:ItachiWasAHero|talk]]) 07:31, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
:2) Your image will most certainly not be added because it is a violation of the [[Image policy]] --[[User:Speysider|Speysider]] <sup><small>[[User_talk:Speysider|Talk Page]] | [[User:Speysider/Images|My Image Uploads]] | [[User:Speysider/Tabber Code|Tabber Code]] | [http://youtube.com/LPSajuuk Channel]</small></sup> 20:35, August 1, 2013 (UTC)
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:Madara knows more about the shinobi history than anyone else. So it's normal that he knows what the green and red steam means. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|]]</sup> 07:46, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Infobox image ==
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Hmm, well that is generally true. But I doubt that he knows it on history alone. He fought in the war torn era and the uchiha monument speaks less generally on history so i doubt that it mentions anything about the 8 gates. [[User:ItachiWasAHero|ItachiWasAHero]] ([[User talk:ItachiWasAHero|talk]]) 07:56, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
  +
:He lived really long, there's plenty of times he could've fought a Taijutsu user on Guy's level. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 07:58, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
  +
::Just because he knows how the eighth gate works, it doesn't necessarily mean he's fought someone who used it. For all we know, he watched someone fight, or even was just told about it. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 15:46, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
   
I'm not sure if it's part of the image policy to have a character appear in their earliest state in the series or not but the old image we used for Madara's infobox was far superior to the new one, in my opinion. Madara's most commonly seen wearing his armor and in the old pic it was seen from a better viewing angle and you could see his whole face as well. Better artwork, better viewing angle for an infobox, better photo overall. --[[User:M4ND0N|M4ND0N]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 07:32, August 4, 2013 (UTC)
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== Sasuke's Sword of Kusanagi worth adding? ==
:[[#Profile Picture]].''' ~ [[User:UltimateSupreme|<span style="color:blue;">Ultimate</span>]][[User talk:UltimateSupreme|<span style="color:#EE2C2C;">Supreme</span>]]''' 07:35, August 4, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
== Possible infobox image ==
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Is it worth adding Sasuke's Sword of Kusanagi because he used it temporarily on Sasuke to fatally wound him? In Madara's tools section?{{unsigned|JustaNobody}}
  +
:Do we even list Itachi who used it for longer than that?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:59, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
  +
::Personally, I think using a tool once would be enough to list the respective person as a wielder, but the majority here seems to think otherwise. But then again, why do people like Deidara or Kurotsuchi have "Sword" in their infobox when they used it in just one episode in two or maybe three instances? [[User:Noweeaboohoo|Noweeaboohoo]] ([[User talk:Noweeaboohoo|talk]]) 19:10, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Lack of common direction/bias in some cases I would say. I guess what some would consider a "proper" usage would be either of them channeling their chakra through it or something--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:19, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
  +
::::Now THAT would dwindle the user-part of the sword's infobox since hardly any of them does such a thing with them. Anyway, I get the "prominent usage" thing, but almost killing the [[Sasuke|second main character]] with a certain tool or having [[Kabuto|one major antagonist]] realise [[Izanami|the crap he's in]] due to using the same tool to [[:File:Izanami 1.png|cut of his body parts]] seems to be prominent enough IMO. This whole case looks a bit premature, might need more discussion. [[User:Noweeaboohoo|Noweeaboohoo]] ([[User talk:Noweeaboohoo|talk]]) 19:26, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
   
Since color seems to be a concern a lot of people had about the original one we used, and the current one is a placeholder until we get a decent image of him with his armor and gunbai, I went ahead and uploaded this image. It's not perfect and he's missing a glove, but we can crop that if it's a big enough deal. In my opinion it's still superior to the one we're currently using if anyone can find a version with more clarity and higher resolution, and it has the benefit of not having the nighttime shading. Thoughts?
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Shoot, if someone picks it up and wields it, it should be added. --[[User:EmperorSigma|Now....Fall Under my Ultimate Genjutsu]] ([[User talk:EmperorSigma|talk]]) 19:29, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
[[Media:Madara Alive.png]]
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:There is and has always been a difference between listing someone as a use of a generic item - sure whatever, vs listing them as wielders of a named tool. If someone takes up the Kohaku no Johei and uses it as a bludgeoning tool, they are to be listed as using the item? Apply that train of thought to listing people as users of items.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 21:29, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
   
--[[User:M4ND0N|M4ND0N]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 23:44, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
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== Overestimation in the Juubi Jinchuriki abilities section ==
   
While the colour is much better, his face doesn't look good. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 01:38, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
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Two issues with this part of the article. Minato only said Madara had greater power in his Juubi Jin form than Obito, not "much" great power like the article says. Also, the article says that because he cut through Minato's body while in sage mode, that it means that he has less vulnerability to Sage mode. That is a ridiculous leap in logic, and it implies that Juubi Jinchuriki Obito would not be able to cut Minato in sage mode with a direct hit, which is simply nonsense.
: I'm of the same opinion. Just wait until we get some more alive pics during the coming flashbacks. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 02:21, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
The face doesn't detract from it too much once it's inserted into the infobox. I did a preview to test it, check it out out and see what you think.[http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/Unholyflame/Madara_Infobox_Test_zps20596aea.png] Personally at the very least I think it looks better than the current one we're using. --[[User:M4ND0N|M4ND0N]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 03:01, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
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My proposed changes are that we remove the "much" part in Madara's Juubi power in comparison to Obito, and remove the entire sentence about him being less vulnerable to Sage mode chakra because it's pure nonsense.
: The current one we're using has a focus on his face, which is preferred over a full-body shot (where one can be avoided), he is facing the camera, and is in his most recognizable form while in life. The picture you provided, one, has inaccuracies in it; namely the gloves and the color of the gunbai (Kishi retconed its color to a light purple), ''and'' the face looks distorted. There is nothing wrong with the current one, whose only flaw is that it is in the nighttime shading, until we get one that shows him alive and in the day, up close. Those old flashback images of him are largely inaccurate and look odd. I'd say just leave it as it is. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 06:20, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
Well, Madara's face for some reason looks better in death than it did in life, as there it never looked good anyway ;D Perhaps reviving him beyond his prime came with plastic surgery included--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 10:52, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
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[[User:Kenny U|Kenny U]] ([[User talk:Kenny U|talk]]) 01:29, March 24, 2014 (UTC) Kenny U
   
== Infobox image ==
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UPDATE: As of now it has been fixed to an acceptable state, so that is fine now.
   
I think Madara's face looks better in death than it did in life. I think is because he doesn't have his heandband and got the rinnegan. Why we could not change a image of Madara resurructed with his rinnegan on his infobox image?--[[User:Zi Hao Lau|Zi Hao Lau]] ([[User talk:Zi Hao Lau|talk]]) 03:26, August 9, 2013 (UTC)Zi Hao Lau
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[[User:Kenny U|Kenny U]] ([[User talk:Kenny U|talk]]) 01:44, March 24, 2014 (UTC) Kenny U
   
:We usually try to get a picture that shows their face and how they are (no pain faces, awkward screen captures, etc.). Admittedly, I dislike the face pic they have now but I don't think we should have one of where he's dead. Wasn't there a better one that was used around 2 months ago? [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 10:08, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
Yeah, but it was changed to this one because the former was gray scaled. Personally I don't see why, the old one was perfect and depicted Madara as he appeared in life whilst still fitting the infobox just fine. Plus the new one has night time shading which isn't much different from a gray scaled photo to begin with. --[[User:M4ND0N|M4ND0N]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 17:55, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
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== New Jinchuriki Image ==
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Hi there, I noticed that the image used to show Madara as the Shinju's Jinchuriki is a little outdated, and I wondered if this could be considered as a replacement.
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:File:Madara_Rikudo_HD.png
   
I think that the the new photo is worse than the old one...--[[User:Zi Hao Lau|Zi Hao Lau]] ([[User talk:Zi Hao Lau|talk]]) 03:08, August 11, 2013 (UTC)Zi Hao Lau
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--[[User:RIkudo|RIkudo]] ([[User talk:RIkudo|talk]]) 02:03, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
   
I propose the old image be back or something better because what's currently in use is a horrible depiction of Madara. I also want to propose a change to the image policy of having Anime pictures over Manga because lets face it, the animators sometimes do a pretty horrible job with certain characters and jutsu.--[[User:Narutofox94|Narutofox94]] ([[User talk:Narutofox94|talk]]) 08:42, August 27, 2013 (UTC)
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I could be wrong (But I'm not) But these images appear to be the exact same one, except yours is kinda grainy, and has cut off part of Madara's foot and one of his floaty orbs, while maintaining a text box I don't think is necessary. I'm not trying to be rude, and maybe they've replaced it or something since you put up this topic, but it would seriously appear to be a downgrade. --[[User:Hawkeye2701|Hawkeye2701]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye2701|talk]]) 02:11, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
   
I have a possible info box image, that is similar to the one that is now. But it shows more of his face. If anyone would like to see it. [[User:Zelwolf|Zelwolf]] ([[User talk:Zelwolf|talk]]) 14:36, September 19, 2013 (UTC)Zelwolf
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Oh, in that case, sorry. And don't worry, you weren't rude, you were honest, and I appreciate that.
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--[[User:RIkudo|RIkudo]] ([[User talk:RIkudo|talk]]) 02:20, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Animated GIFS ==
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Same as a past revision of the current image we use for that, that wasn't used precisely because there's a part of the right page missing. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 02:39, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
Since none of the anime screen shots depicting Madara's abilities are as eye-catching as they are in the manga, should we try adding in animated GIFs to show off his kenjutsu, taijutsu and rinnegan?[[User:Malcasablanca|Malcasablanca]] ([[User talk:Malcasablanca|talk]]) 04:22, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
: No. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 05:16, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
==No Access To EMS techs when accessing Rinnegan==
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== Sensor ==
   
In Madara's page its stated that he hasn't shown his EMS abilities with Rinnegan active, with the exception of Susanoo. It is worth mentioning this since Madara hasn't shown the use of Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi in the manga or anime yet, even with his EMS. I am not stating that he can't use those techs I am saying that he hasn't shown them with EMS either so what is the point of mentioning this with Rinnegan?--[[User:ElvinWindSword|ElvinWindSword]] ([[User talk:ElvinWindSword|talk]]) 00:09, September 22, 2013 (UTC)ElvinWindSword
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I don't think Madara is a sensor. First of all, the reference to when he was a child is stupid. He says he's sensitive, not he's a sensor. Second, even people who aren't sensor ninjas can sense strong chakra. Suigetsu and Karin did so with Naruto's chakra. Is there anything else that hints at Madara being a sensor? If not, I suggest we remove that part. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|]]</sup> 18:55, April 1, 2014 (UTC)
:Nailed it, the whole "can't access" thing is a speculation imo either way--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:07, September 22, 2013 (UTC)
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:The only instances that indicate that Madara is a sensor I recall are the detection of Hashirama, when he was still far away from the battlefield. Madara was the only at that moment that seemed to detect it, so even if Hashirama has strong chakra, him being the only one reacting to it for me indicates sensor abilities. There was also that one time when the Alliance did that huge combo against the Ten-Tails' first form, and Obito said something about them being incapable of sensing the Alliance after the dust and insects came into play, which always confused me a bit because he said that after trying to use the Sharingan. All other displays of sensor like ability I can think of are post theft of Hashirama's senjutsu chakra. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 20:06, April 1, 2014 (UTC)
::It's been concluded he had access to Mangekyo abilities with his Rinnegan active months ago. We had that discussion about if to consider Susanoo a Rinnegan tech, and we concluded that no the Rinnegan did not cancel out Susanoo moves. Why it was not reflected here was mere oversight.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 11:17, September 22, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::Can someone point me that discussion? I still don't understand how Madara needing to switch to the Sharingan constitutes "Rinnegan not cancelling Sharingan powers". [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 16:55, September 22, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::[[Talk:Susanoo/Archive_2#Rinnegan_.3F|Here]]. Though re-reading it it doesn't exactly say the Rinnegan does or doesn't cancel Sharingan abilities. It does say it doesn't prevent him from using Sharingan abilities.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 17:15, September 22, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::::I made the edit based off what Elvin said, in addition to what Elveo-sama said in the past. I wasnt aware of this discussion either O.O. But, im glad to know it was discussed deeply at some point. [[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 19:14, September 22, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
Now I'm super confused who says what. What is everyone's stance on the subject again? We list [[Tengai Shinsei]] as a Rinnegan technique, while at the same time Susanoo is a parent and we saw more times him using Susanoo with Rinnegan. I wonder how did we come to the conclusion that he can't use Mangekyou Sharingan powers with Rinnegan, I think some argued something about his clones and or him switching from Rinnegan to Mangekyou in order to put A under genjutsu.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:22, September 22, 2013 (UTC)
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Don't even try this one Seel. Why do you think he can't pee when someone stands behind, because he senses them of course.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:23, April 1, 2014 (UTC)
:For me, him or his clones requiring to shift back to EMS to cast genjutsu is proof that not all of his EMS powers are available to him with Rinnegan. Tengai Shinsei is listed as a Rinnegan technique because of the exchange between Madara and Kabuto just before Madara uses it, about who the power of the Sage of the Six Paths, which is the Rinnegan. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 20:20, September 22, 2013 (UTC)
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:Elve, do you really want me to check the raw? :D
:Just my speculation, but perhaps the Rinnegan can use Sharingan ninjutsu but not genjutsu (since Rinnegan is ninjutsu eye after all). All in all, the sentence has been removed I think. It should just be noted somewhere that he switched it, rather than saying he can't use one set of powers while using the other. I don't think 1 instance is proof of anything, especially considering Susanoo works, no sense justifying why genjutsu wouldn't/doesn't. For all we know, he could have used it on A with Rinnegan but didn't do so purposely... red is cooler.
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:Omni-kun, wouldn't Madara need to knead his chakra to sense Hashirama? Like Tobirama didn't do back then when they were kids? I don't think there are "automatic sensors"... [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 10:43, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
EDIT: why is Susanoo even listed as a parent to [[Tengai Shinsei]]? All it did were hand seal and for all we know Madara could have used his own hands--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:51, September 22, 2013 (UTC)
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::Figure he just molded his chakra during that moment. And there may or may not be automatic sensors.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:24, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Was there ever anyone who didn't need to do anything to sense chakra? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 12:39, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Naruto in chakra mode and sage mode?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:41, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::That's a special form, not something every sensor ninja has. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 12:48, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::Now you have something more in the table, Naruto sensed Indra inside Sasuke's, so there is a possibility that Madara sensed Hashirama because they had the same conection. Just wondering. [[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 13:00, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
   
: Then that begs the question why he resummoned his Susanoo as he was forming the seals for Tengai Shinsei. Got any speculation for that? How about how he would be able to use four seals at the same time with his own hands? Hm? ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 21:58, September 22, 2013 (UTC)
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Seel, even though Madara wasn't in the fight at the moment, I find it highly unlikely that he wouldn't at the very least be prepared to leap into it at a moment's notice, and that would include having chakra ready to use. Indra and Asura's chakra is still a situation outside normal sensor limits, if it indeed allows them to detect one another. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 17:21, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
::I still don't see what was wrong with that sentence. We did see him having to change to EMS. If anything, it can be reworded to something like "With the exception of Susanoo, Madara has not been observed to access his EMS powers while using the Rinnegan, for example, requiring to change it back to cast genjutsu". [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 22:07, September 22, 2013 (UTC)
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== Unique Traits ==
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Madara was able to use Susanoo without using his Rinnegan. What's to say he can't use the Preta Path without the Rinnegan as well? If so that doesn't count as a unique trait. [[User:Cloudtheavenger|Cloudtheavenger]] ([[User talk:Cloudtheavenger|talk]]) 07:13, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
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:The reason why he could use Susanoo with the Rinnegan was revealed to be because Susanoo doesn't even require any eyes at all.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:47, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
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::Where was this mentioned?--[[User:Taynio|Taynio]] ([[User talk:Taynio|talk]]) 21:07, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Re-read the chapters after Madara gets revived with Rinne Tensei and his eyes crumble. He used Susanoo without eyes there--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:52, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Or it just means it has mastered his doujutsu to an extend he can use them (to an extent since he didn't or couldn't manifest the final Susanoo) without his eyes.[[User:Cloudtheavenger|Cloudtheavenger]] ([[User talk:Cloudtheavenger|talk]]) 06:19, April 8, 2014 (UTC)
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::::: If no one can counter it then I'm requesting deletion of his unique trait.[[User:Cloudtheavenger|Cloudtheavenger]] ([[User talk:Cloudtheavenger|talk]]) 04:39, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 04:39, April 12, 2014

Icon-Archive
Archives

Trimming Down: AbilitiesEdit

To avoid further edit war, I am adding this here with my intentions. Namely, the complete removal of Bukijutsu, kenjutsu and Intelligence from his abilities section. As well as general trimming down of the prose and circlejerking his section is full of. Because quite frankly, his intelligence should go under Personality, and bukijutsu and kenjutsu are literally only worth a sentence because they aren't that important most of his fighting style was focused around Susanoo, with very little use of a sword or gubai.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 23:50, December 22, 2013 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying, but that is also like saying that Shikamaru's intelligence is not a defining attribute to him. Similar, Itachi's signature ability wasn't shurikens, but was still a noticeable skill of his. Steveo920, 18:56 December 22, 2013
Seriously, I am all for making this page sleeker, I've been reducing all day to help out. Not just the abilities section, but the personality section as well. I just think that if the character shows noticeable skill in it, it should be mention to some extent. Steveo920, 19:-1, December 22, 2013
The issue is though intelligence is not Madara's defining feature. Madara's defining ability is his dojutsu. He is smart no denying that, but it is not a defining ability. Same with kenjutsu and bukijustsu, he for the most part uses them. But he isn't defined by them. Its not the same situation of Shikamaru or Tenten, both or are defined by their intelligence and weapon techniques respectively. Both ken and bukijutsu can be mentioned, they should be mentioned, but it is not worth a large section which continues to just read like a circlejerk of how awesome Madara is.
Like that's the second part of the problem. We don't need to have multiple mentions of how Madara can pwn fodder shinobi with no effort. We don't need to literally repeat some of his great feats multiple times in multiple sections. That was what I was trying to do to trim this down, I removed repeated actions and dropped ones that are quite frankly pointless (Mentioning his can battle an entire army is fine. Mentioning he can battle an entire army multiple times and it becomes a circlejerk.)--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 00:08, December 23, 2013 (UTC)

Everything should be mentioned, im agaisnt taking certain thing out Munchvtec (talk) 00:29, December 23, 2013 (UTC)munchvtec

Good contribution. Now tell us how you really feel or you just like the circlejerk of information Madara's page has devolved into?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 00:31, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
I agree, little things shouldn't be blown out of proportion, that's why I am still gragually trimming it down myself, but to act like they had no involvement at all is like saying they have no ability for it all. Hashirama's life force and chakra is a key aspect to Madara's plan, but it wasn't a defining attribute to Hashirama himself. Whats-more, Madara's weapon and intelligence traits are noticeable as he was known for his gunbai and his intelligence played an important role to the development of the world, having manipulated so much from beyond the grave. Steveo920, 19:30, December 22, 2013
To be honest, your trimming down seems more phoned in. And you are still blowing things out to be bigger than they need to be. As I said he has used his gubai and that can be mentioned, but not to such a degree that he needs entire section dedicated to it. We don't need a section on his intelligence because "he manipulated things from the grave". He actually didn't, he had Tobi do his works for him, and had Kabuto not revived Madara, Tobi would have been alone with the Ten-Tails. We can mention he is smart fine, but he does not need an entire section based on his intelligence at least not in his Abilities section. So yes, even "important role to the development of the world" is overhyping him. The problem is that much of what is in the article is overhype. Things need to actually be removed to solve this problem not trying to dance around the issue.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 00:45, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
Okay, I'll admit that by statement about his intelligence wasn't thought out, I guess I was getting a little emotional since I seriously put so much work into my edits, but the way you are saying it, characters like Kakashi don't need an intellgence section. It isn't his most defining but it place a huge role on how he operates. Steveo920, 19:53, December 22, 2013
I'm of the same mind as Ultimate, honestly, and for every page. Not just Madara. I don't know when it became acceptable that every single sneeze a character makes is mentioned in the ability section, but its needless, and takes up space that could be used by actual useful information. The abilities section should give a summary—key word here—of Madara's defining capabilities. His dōjutsu, to name the most significant. Trimming bukijutsu and intelligence, or even outright removing them, would be fine. Madara hasn't even used his fan since he first arrived back on the battlefield, and, I'm sorry, while he's skilled with other weapons, they clearly aren't his main mode of attack. Not to mention, the abilities section was mostly buffed up by a select few who seem to worship Madara's ever action, adding in needless "junk info" along with a ton of unneeded references. These articles aren't meant to recount every single action in the series done by these characters, verbatim. It is to give a summary. If people want to know that Madara Uchiha was capable of using a fan to blow away Naruto, then they can visit the Jutsu page, or read the manga, but it certainly doesn't need an entire section dedicated to it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 00:56, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
If you want to reduce the sections, I will have no problem with that. I just think that if they show more than average skill in the said area, it should be noted. It's kind of like how on various pages a character's limits are noted, like Itahci not being able to defeat Jiraiya. Its not defining, but it paints a clearer picture on what the character can do. 2Steveo920, 20:09, December 22, 2012
Except this isn't about his limit, its nothing but circlejerking around how he is close to being a god. We could mention him being legendary and strong but instead the article throws extreme focus on him wrecking or hyping up little things he does. Honestly skills outside of dojutsu and nature transformations can be summed up as "Highly skilled in taijutsu and various weapons, particularly his gumbai". That is literally all that needs to be said about kenjutsu bukijutsu and taijutsu yet the article has 3 different sections about them.-TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 01:40, December 23, 2013 (UTC)


Okay, I'll admit I don't even know what "circlejerking" is exactly, but I'm not trying to overhype anything> I just want to give readers a better idea than just thinking a character is good at something when there is more information. To go overboard about how he is close to being a god from intelligence or weapon skills would be like saying he is borderline clairvoyant or he no army in the world could stand against him respectively. Steveo920, 20:48, December 22, 2012

In my opinion, I find trimming down Madara's article to be pointless. 100,000 some bytes is hardly that bad, and furthermore, given that the manga is scheduled to end in 2014 (so probably in a little more than two months or three), it's not like there's that much more information that will be given on Madara. Furthermore, Bukijutsu and whatnot are crucial to a character. The purpose of a Wikia site for information is to give readers a thorough guideline about characters and other associated things, so to shorten it to only bare essentials and cutting out what we consider "unimportant" is silly. As a canon site, we should present exactly what Kishi gives us through the chapters, not shortening it and summarizing it to how we personally fancy it. I dunno, just my two cents. --Silver-Haired Seireitou (talk) 05:07, December 23, 2013 (UTC)

Except the wikia was never supposed to be an alternative to actually reading the manga/watching the anime. Sections like abilities are supposed to be summuries, not word for word dick jerking of a particular character where every single thing they do is consider the Kings Gold and hyped as if it is an intergral part of the character.-TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 10:33, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
Various characters have various abilities that aren't the most prominent, but still give an overall idea what they can do. Kakashi specializes in ninjutsu supplemented by his Sharingan, yet he is still a highly skilled taijutsu user, one of few able to use any of the Eight Gates, which he rarely uses but is still noteworthy. Steveo920. 10:51, Dec 23, 2013
Okay, but you're equating "noteworthy" as an excuse to write an entire novel and dedicate a unique section to the skill. Even your example can be summed up as, "Kakashi is a talented user of taijutsu, being one of the few shinobi capable of opening the Eight Gates". Bingo. Done. Not five paragraphs on everytime he successfully landed a punch on a villain. Ultimate is absolutely right. This wiki is not an alternative for the manga. If you want to know every single skill a character has, that is what the story is for. Summaries are what we are supposed to give: nothing further. That is what a Wikia—an encyclopedia—is meant for. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 19:37, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
No, my point about Kakashi isn't that he can use the eight gates, its that his abilities in the taijutsu are more than just basic. Again, I am not trying to glorify it or right an entire "novel" as you put it, I am just saying that needs more detail. Steveo920, 14:50, December 23, 2013
No, it really doesn't need more detail. Detail is for the manga to work out. We work out summaries. Plain and simple. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 21:01, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
I'm in full agreement of trimming down this article (and some others, but that's for another time). Madara Uchiha is one of the series' most popular characters among the fans, so it is easy to subconsciously blow his feats out of proportion. Emphasis should be on his dojutsu prowess, but everything should be concise and summarized. I can help out with the personality section as well though, since I've done minor work in said areas in the past. --Kakashi Namikaze - talk 14:20, December 25, 2013 (UTC)

Elderly pic for infobox? Edit

Currently it's the most recent pic of Madara when he was alive that's animated. The current photo doesn't show his revived self at all so what do you guys think? --Mandon (talk) 17:46, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

...But he's regained his youth...that was from a flashback. --OmegaRasengan (talk) 17:49, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

There's currently no image of him post rinne-tensei in the anime though. The one we're currently using doesn't even resemble his current appearance, it's just a pic of him in his edo-tensei form. --Mandon (talk) 17:52, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

Look, what is posted in the infobox is what the character currently looks like the anime. Once Hashirama vs. Madara is animated, a pic of living Madara will likely be uploaded. Until then, this will suffice.--OmegaRasengan (talk) 17:57, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

Well I don't know much about the image guidelines EDIT: By that I mean the factors in choosing an infobox image. not the actual guidelines, but I'm just saying the current image isn't a photo of him while he's alive. And he doesn't look exactly like that in the current chapters. We thought his post-RT appearance would resemble his edo tensei body and that's why the image was decided upon, but clearly that wasn't the case. --Mandon (talk) 18:03, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

There is absolutely no way the picture of Elderly Madara is gonna be used. The picture we have is the closet to an image we've known him throughout the entire manga, not just 2 chapters. So I repeat, there is absolutely no way that picture is gonna be used.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 22:46, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

You don't have the authority to make that decision, Ultimate. I brought up this discussion so that everyone can decide which photo would be best. So far you and Omega have spoken out against it, and I've voiced why I'm for it, so let's see what everyone else thinks. My point still stands, the current photo isn't a living photo of him. The sole reason it was even considered was because we thought that's how he would look after being revived, since his eyes didn't burn out until the next chapter, so whether or not we use his elderly appearance, I don't think the current image is appropriate for the infobox. Those are just my thoughts. --Mandon (talk) 00:33, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

First, it's TheUltimate3 and I accept TU3 for short. Second, ain't no way photo of old elderly Madara is gonna be used, especially when that is by far his least notable appearance in the manga/anime/whatever.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 02:16, January 10, 2014 (UTC)
Third a picture of him alive is preferred, but not when it is completely contradictory to what we have seen him in most of the series. We've seen old man Madara in two chapters. We've seen young, ready to fight Madara for a quarter of the manga. It's not rocket science on which one will be used. And beacuse you made this topic I will give you a hint; it will not be Elderly Madara.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 02:17, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

Does it matter what I call you? You know I'm talking to you so it matters not. Back on topic.. Old Man Madara is the most recent living picture of him. We used a photo of adult Nagato after the pain arc even though we technically saw a lot more of him as a child, so I don't exactly buy that argument. In any case I really don't care which photo we use, as long as it isn't a photo where he's reanimated. I'm going strictly by the reason we used it originally, which was that we thought that's how he would look after his true revival. It wasn't, so we should change it back to the old picture from Onoki's flashback or use a photo of him as an old man as a placeholder since it's more recent. I've raised my points and you've raised yours, and unless someone else comments there's no chance of it being changed anyways so let's see where this goes. --Mandon (talk) 02:59, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

Yes what I'm called is very important. I don't call you MadaraFan01 do it?
But seriously the picture of him doesn't even look like he was Reincarnated, the only way you'll know is if you read the manga. And we don't work for just them. We work for the fandom as a whole, and as a whole, adult Madara with red armor is his most iconic appearance. Old Man Madara is not. There is absolutely no reason to use an image of him at his most obscure, other than my personal president that we use images of them alive.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 03:07, January 10, 2014 (UTC)
Is there an actual precedent against edo tensei images? If the anime offers no good living options and, in fact, Madara has spent a majority of his screentime as an edo tensei, what's wrong with using it? When the anime reaches Hashirama's flashbacks then, sure, replace it with a living photo. But in the meantime...? ~SnapperTo 03:30, January 10, 2014 (UTC)
No there isn't. Or at least there shouldn't be. I have just been very vocal in the past about, if available, having a picture of a character alive instead of the cracks and black eyes of Reincarnation. But Madara here shows no visible signs of Reincarnation so even by my old standards, he passes.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 03:32, January 10, 2014 (UTC)
Sort of a convenient misrepresentation, no? Yet it still isn't a particularly good image. Are you going to insist on an inferior picture merely because of some not-actual guideline? I would point out that Mū is in the same boat, where there are living options, but they aren't used because they are a) bad, and b) he's known better dead anyway.
There's also Gari and Pakura, but they've probably got some complicated manga > anime reasoning I wouldn't follow... ~SnapperTo 03:48, January 10, 2014 (UTC)
Not sure if you are still speaking to me or Mandon... If it's at me, I just don't want Elder Madara and see no reason to use it.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 03:57, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

There's a difference. I'm not calling you something obscure that has no relevance to your name. if I call you ultimate you at least know I'm talking to you. It's not a big deal. Anyways, there are plenty of images to use Snapper. In fact, we've used them before we switched to the corrent photo. The greyscaled image of him with his gunbai for example, or the one from Onoki's flashback. And if we're allowed to use Edo Tensei photos, there are plenty of images better than the one we're currently using. --Mandon (talk) 05:33, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

I was speaking to TheUltimateMuscle, just in case anyone wanted to know.
My point was that there are currently no good images of living Madara from the anime. He's either too old, too grayscaled, or wearing too much atypical clothing. In the absence of a good living image, I see no reason to not use a good dead image, at least until such time that there is a good living image. ~SnapperTo 08:08, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

Well if we all come to an agreement that ET images with noticable ET traits like cracks and black sclera are okay, then we can easily snuff out a better image than the one we're currently using. --Mandon (talk) 09:15, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

Not sure if it's still relevant, but to answer your question about why Gari and Pakura images, pictures of them Reincarnated was chosen because the only not-Reincarnated pictures that exist for them is Anime-Only, and everyone should be well aware by now how much that is a buzz-word around here.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:31, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

Why can't we make a compromise??? Do people have to be so stubborn and egocentric? Can someone explain why can't we use both manga and anime images? In my opinion that would be the best, with manga image of his current revived status and anime image of his last recent living appearance, which would be (fortunately not to Ulti's delight) the grandpa one--Elveonora (talk) 13:43, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

The issue is convoluted and stupid (and yes I am talking about myself too). Some don't want anime images at all if a manga one exists, some what uniform consistency, some has followed through with the manga and anime depictions but then the problem comes how do you incorporate that with every character, then the whole Part I and Part II thing passed. Then you add this one where really come on, Grandpa Madara is in no way iconic enough for an image, but based on the very unofficial rule I myself championed would/could be used and here is the discussion.
It's really a big mess.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 20:30, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

Is there any reason why we can't just use tabs for Madara like the infobox for Obito? Also, Elve has a point, I think manga images could and should be appropriate under special circumstances. If you could take a minute to go to the One Piece Wikia and look at the infoboxes for each character, you'll see that they use both manga and anime images in separate tabs on both the pre-timeskip and post-timeskip sections in said box. So like, say a character that appeared in the first half appears in the second half, then a manga image is used until an anime photo comes along, and even then both images are still there to view. Obviously both our wiki and theirs have completely different code so I'm not sure how that would work, but it's something to consider. --Mandon (talk) 00:28, January 11, 2014 (UTC)

There is no reason to not use tabs for Madara, but on the same token there is barely a reason we do use tabs on Tobi. In terms of sticking four images in the infobox, I don't know if our infoboxes are even designed to do that. It's possible, but we had to wait like half a year to get a functional two tab thing working and I don't know if it works beyond that.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 00:38, January 11, 2014 (UTC)

We could just do an "Alive" and "Reincarnated" thing for the infobox. We don't need 4 tabs for that. EDIT -- But then there's the question of whether or not there's a real point in using multiple tabs. If edo tensei images are acceptable, and he already appears with his iconic look, then I don't really see a reason to care.. to be perfectly honest. Preferably an image that shows him at a better angle would be more ideal but that's just me. --Mandon (talk) 01:25, January 11, 2014 (UTC)

Alive and reincarnated have barely any differences. superficial at best so that would not make sense. And It'll have to suffice until more usable living!Madara images are available.

"Old Man Madara is the most recent living picture of him. We used a photo of adult Nagato after the pain arc even though we technically saw a lot more of him as a child"-exactly. We use current in series pictures if available. adult Nagato=not a flashback. Old Madara=flashback.

"Sort of a convenient misrepresentation, no?"- well its what works best. If you notice Hanzo has a similar situation. the anime fucked up and gave him normal eyes, so instead of having both anime/manga images, we use one of ET Hanzo because in canon he has dark sclera so it works.--RexGodwin (talk) 11:49, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

Did Anyone Notice?Edit

Did anyone notice two of the following things:

  • Madara was able to go into sage mode after absorbing Hashirama's chakra, but Hashirama himself wasn't in sage mode
  • Madara bit his arm, causing it to bleed, to manipulate the rods in Hashi's back upon his resurrection.--Senju SymbolKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 04:03, January 14, 2014 (UTC)
Really? I haven't had an idea why did he bite his arm all along.--Elveonora (talk) 12:51, January 14, 2014 (UTC)
Well, you can see Hashirama's senjutsu chakra flowing from Hashi's body to Madara's through the wound Madara caused on himself by biting his left arm.--JOA20 (talk) 12:59, January 14, 2014 (UTC)
Yea, but is it significant, and how did he access Hashi's senjutsu, if he wasnt in sage mode? He wasnt even gathering any at all in their fight.--Senju SymbolKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 15:07, January 14, 2014 (UTC)
There were these clones of Naruto that despite being used to gather senjutsu chakra to allow the original body to re-enter Sage Mode didn't have the Sage Mode markings. And Hashirama was still for some moments, enough in my humble opinion to gain enough senjutsu chakra for Madara.--JOA20 (talk) 15:27, January 14, 2014 (UTC)

Hear Me OutEdit

Ok, so i'm trying to edit Madara's article according to what occurred in today's chapter. I want to exercise these points, but seeing as there is much stress over what goes in/out Madara's page, i want to run by you guys first. I mean, one slip up and you're called a "Madara Fanboy".(haha!) Here we go:

  • Madara's Susano'o shield (mabye make into a seprete unnamed technique?
  • Madara's reflexes to avoid Tobirama's Hiraishin (twice?)
  • TELEKINESIS!!!!?
  • And his ability to just outright rip the tailed beat right out of both Naruto and Bee.--Senju SymbolKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 14:12, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
  • No.
  • Yes.
  • No!
  • Yeah, drop the beat! No, he just took less longer than Obito did. Seelentau 愛 14:15, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

WOW!! That made me laugh out loud, haha. But a few Q's that need A's. No to making the Susano'o shield a separate tech? and are we still discussing the "levitation" to be a probable unnamed Rinnegan tech?--Senju SymbolKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 14:20, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

Yes to no and no, that's conclusion-jumping and we don't do that here. Seelentau 愛 14:26, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

The shield is no different in my opinion that a ribcage manifestation, a pic for the variant would be nice tho--Elveonora (talk) 14:29, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

Either way, I strive to only make appropriate edits. So ill get to it. Revision of my edit would be helpful.--Senju SymbolKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 14:34, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

The paralyzing air. Edit

Hi everyone, wanna ask a question. In the last chapter, didn't Madara seems or can we assumed the he used Banchou Tenin? THANKYOU Small brother (talk) 20:09, January 17, 2014 (UTC)

Didn't function like Basnsho Ten'in. Bansho Ten'in pulls the target towards the user. Madara stopped Sasuke while he was jumping at him and held him there.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 20:15, January 17, 2014 (UTC)
It's obvious Nagato didn't show us everything the Rinnegan has to offer. After all, the eyes are Madara's or rather Izuna's ._. Well, you get it. For all we know, each Path has 5 or more techniques, making it even more overpowered than already is when used to its fullest extent--Elveonora (talk) 21:11, January 17, 2014 (UTC)

Then, we could assume that come from the Rinnegan? I'm not so sure, but Madara was looking at Sasuke when it happened. Like the Rinbou Hingoku, but not sure. THANKYOU Small brother (talk) 08:39, January 18, 2014 (UTC)

Fighting Sasuke Blind Edit

Hi there. I know everyone has been trying very hard to trim down Madara's page, but I had one small piece of information that I think should be added to Madara's Taijutus section. It is worth mentioning that in Chapter 657 he was capable of fighting Sasuke (who was armed with his sword and Mangekyo Shiringan) to a standstill even though Madara was completely blind at the time. --Raizerninja (talk) 00:34, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

Sort of mentioned already, indirectly, in the ninjutsu section, where his sensing is mentioned. The reason why he was able to do it blind is because sensing made up for it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:52, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

Rinbo: Hengoku is Deva Path Edit

Rinbo: Hengoku is Deva Path. It can repel which is exactly one of the main abilities of the Deva Path. Remember the Deva Path includes repelling and attracting as its abilities. I don't see how it's speculative to say Rinbo: Hengoku is Deva Path. Is obvious Rinbo: Hengoku is a Deva Path jutsu since it repels. This is enough evidence so say Rinbo: Hengoku is Deva Path.--Rinneganmaster (talk) 04:01, January 26, 2014 (UTC)

What if it's a technique that sends some kind of invisible chakra punch? Like taijutsu, but even faster and with chakra? Seelentau 愛 04:22, January 26, 2014 (UTC)

It's already stated in the Rinbo: Hengoku article that Rinbo: Hengoku has an invisible force that is powerful enough to repel the tailed beasts so is not a chakra punch. This shows Rinbo: Hengoku has a repulsive force. Also Deva Path is stated to have attractive and repulsive forces. Based on this Rinbo: Hengoku's parent jutsu is Deva Path since it has a repulsive force similar to Shinra Tensei.--Rinneganmaster (talk) 05:04, January 26, 2014 (UTC)

You do realize that chakra is usually invisible, right? Now, sure it's likely it is a Deva Path technique. But the wiki finds it best to keep out speculation, which is what this is, really. Skitts (talk) 07:59, January 26, 2014 (UTC)

Even though its invisible it is still agreeable that it has a repulsive force. Considering the fact it was used by the rinnegan and it has a repulsive force, Rinbo: Hengoku is a Deva Path for sure. Its not speculation if it clearly demonstrates one of the main abilities of the parent jutsu.--Rinneganmaster (talk) 19:33, January 26, 2014 (UTC)

Missing Tools? Edit

I think their are some tools and weapons that are missing, and that should be added, such as the shakujo, and the chakra receivers are some of the weapons that are missing, how about adding that, it makes sense since he used them in his most recent battle in the war. Another thing worth mentioning is partners shouldn't it include Izuna, Spiral Zetsu and Zetsu.?--JustaNobody (talk) 20:19, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Could you please properly format your text instead of making it look like a ransom note made of newspaper articles? About your questions, no. Chakra receiver was long changed to a jutsu page regarding how they come to be instead of having several different tool variations. He's not yielding an actual shakujo, he's just making the chakra take the form of one. Obito isn't listed as using them either. Unless they give that an actual name and call it an actual tool, like the did with Sword of Nunoboko, that doesn't happen. In the context of two-men teams, Madara was not partnered with any of those. With Izuna, he was alongside his entire clan, Zetsu clones aren't partners to him, their minions. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:34, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Missing another unique ability? Edit

I think he is missing another unique ability that he possesses and shares with both Zetsu and Spiral Zetsu, namely his ability to telepathic communicate with both of the former characters. So is it worth mentioning?--JustaNobody (talk) 20:38, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

No, because he's never done it. Stop trying to hype Madara with every edit. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:34, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

I am just trying my best to contribute not to hype him up. That's all.--JustaNobody (talk) 22:48, February 8, 2014 (UTC)

He has done, it and in fact he did it to black zetsu, he told black zetsu telepathically that he was going to play with the 5 kages a little longer before he set out on the plan, and he told black zetsu what to do for the plan.. all via telepathic link to one another. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 11:46, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

Yet again, every Zetsu can talk to each other via telepathy. I think that's just a common thing that comes with them, just as they don't need food or water. I guess Madara can communicate with Black Zetsu because it's basically a copy of himself (compare Yamato and his Wood Clone, they can do such things too). Idontcareaboutmyname (talk) 12:08, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
Mentioning a chapter would be useful. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:03, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it is general telepathy, only telepathy to his will, black zetsu. I don't remember chapter number but

http://naruto.answers.wikia.com/wiki/What_is_Madara's_trump_card

This talks about the chapter basically. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 21:55, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

Still needing something more specific. Madara versus the Five Kage spanned across three or four volumes. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:18, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
[1] ~SnapperTo 22:28, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

That ^ solved it, chapter 657 page 10 ItachiWasAHero (talk) 22:31, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, so Madara spoke telepathically, but only with Black Zetsu, not Zetsu in general, as it was claimed in the beginning of this article. Probably something to do with BZ being part of his will. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:43, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

Absorbing Chakra isn't a unique trait. Several other shinobis have been capable of it. Unique means no one else is capable of it.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 07:46, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

Unique can mean unusual or rare, he is one of only a few characters that has the ability to absorb chakra without needing to use a special technique to do it.TricksterKing (talk) 02:10, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Madara was able to use Susanoo without using his Rinnegan. What's to say he can't use the Preta Path without the Rinnegan as well?Cloudtheavenger (talk) 21:11, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Introduction? Edit

I don't really understand what's so harmful about detailing certain facts about him in the intro. We do this with every single article for a character but all of a sudden it's clutter to mention that Madara's a Jinchuriki? Might as well do the same for the rest of them (Naruto, B, Roshi, etc) --Mandon (talk) 07:44, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

The introduction is supposed to be a brief introduction of the character, leading into the article. For a lot of characters (Notable offenders in my mind is Tobi, Madara, and Kurama) where their intro because a place where their entire background section and current chapter status had been stuffed. That is bad. If anything the introductions should have been made in a way that they could remain static forever, not changing at the whim of the newest chapter.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 11:21, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
That's a ridiculous argument. Naruto, B, etc. have been jinchuriki since the day they appeared, and as such being a jinchuriki is fundamental to their characters. Madara's been a jinchuriki for two chapters. Zero similarity. ~SnapperTo 16:56, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

he is 179cm not 182cm Edit

Where is the proof for 182cm?? I am changing it back to 179 until databook, manga, or author himself give a number differing than 179 ItachiWasAHero (talk) 11:49, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

You could check the edit history of the infobox and ask the person who changed it directly. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:03, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

Summoning: Shinju? Edit

Is this also worth adding that he had summoned the Ten-Tailed Beast to his list of techniques alongside Sage Mode? Just wondering is all.--JustaNobody (talk) 02:47, February 13, 2014 (UTC)

Are we sure that was summoning and not the Gedo Mazo disappearing and Ten-Tails reappearing as part of its transformation? It seems to have disappeared out of the Uchiha Flame Formation last time it transformed.--BeyondRed (talk) 05:43, February 13, 2014 (UTC)

Gedo Mazo/Shinju are one and the same entity, all Rinnegan users can summon it.--Elveonora (talk) 12:07, February 13, 2014 (UTC)

Lightning Element Edit

Surely Madara should be attributed all elements? He has the Rinnegan and knows every other jutsu out there. The Rinnegan allowed Nagato to master all elements. It's all but been demonstrated that Madara has command of all elements.--Reliops (talk) 00:43, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Madara's natural aptitude for ninjutsu may be similar to Hiruzen's and his possession of the Rinnegan certainly give him the "potential" to use all five elements, but that doesn't mean Madara has actually bothered to learn it. Steveo920, 19:50, February 15, 2014
Yes. Nagato is only listed as having them all because were told he learned them all. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:57, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

TRimming downEdit

He have won thanks to the throne on performance and strength phenomenal, in many cases, can be seen well, why did you not understand is I do not want to pay tribute? —This unsigned comment was made by Iloveinoxxx (talkcontribs) on 01:16, February 16, 2014 (UTC).

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? Seelentau 愛 01:23, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
I have no idea what the OP is trying to say. Now, I usually try to keep the article from getting bloated from new info. Still feel like Madara's article is bigger than it should be though. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:27, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
Madara's are not bloathed It is not the complete opposite it will be thorough. Or Seelentau, what is OP and mean what you?

—This unsigned comment was made by Iloveinoxxx (talkcontribs) on 10:18, February 16, 2014 (UTC).

What the...? ._.--Elveonora (talk) 14:21, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

(- _-) I will not stand for his trolling behaviour.--NaviiGator (A.K.A.KotoSenju)-Talk-Contributions 18:14, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Why am I assuming your trolling am you are you in the world? If you do not understand, once again, read my question! By the way, I am a girl—This unsigned comment was made by Iloveinoxxx (talkcontribs) on 18:29, February 16, 2014 (UTC).

Oh this article is very bloated, and it is way bigger than it needs to be. I tried trimming it though, and the results were all reverted with small token removals. Honestly this article is just gonna be stupid big for no reason and there is very little that can be done with it.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 20:44, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
Not quite. True, some users have a fixation with bloating this article through numerous small edits, but I usually revert those edits, since they only add more of the same, which this article doesn't need. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:21, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

You guys do not understand, he is the strongest character and best, therefore, why, you need to have it does not explain everything, the best, the article of the largest he?Iloveinoxxx (talk) 14:18, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

I fear I may start disregarding your opinion on matters ILoveInoXXX. If for no other reason then how you stated why he should have a bloated article...--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 14:55, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

On the issue of height, Edit

It seems Obito is the same height as Madara according to chapter 665, so maybe databook 4 will list Madara around 175cm instead. Just a quick point out of something is all ItachiWasAHero (talk) 09:51, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

667 info Edit

It seems that the 8th gate causes Red Steam and Madara has fought and survived against 8th gate users in the past as evidenced by him even knowing about the red steam. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 07:31, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

Madara knows more about the shinobi history than anyone else. So it's normal that he knows what the green and red steam means. Seelentau 愛 07:46, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, well that is generally true. But I doubt that he knows it on history alone. He fought in the war torn era and the uchiha monument speaks less generally on history so i doubt that it mentions anything about the 8 gates. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 07:56, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

He lived really long, there's plenty of times he could've fought a Taijutsu user on Guy's level. Seelentau 愛 07:58, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
Just because he knows how the eighth gate works, it doesn't necessarily mean he's fought someone who used it. For all we know, he watched someone fight, or even was just told about it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:46, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

Sasuke's Sword of Kusanagi worth adding? Edit

Is it worth adding Sasuke's Sword of Kusanagi because he used it temporarily on Sasuke to fatally wound him? In Madara's tools section?—This unsigned comment was made by JustaNobody (talkcontribs) .

Do we even list Itachi who used it for longer than that?--Elveonora (talk) 18:59, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
Personally, I think using a tool once would be enough to list the respective person as a wielder, but the majority here seems to think otherwise. But then again, why do people like Deidara or Kurotsuchi have "Sword" in their infobox when they used it in just one episode in two or maybe three instances? Noweeaboohoo (talk) 19:10, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
Lack of common direction/bias in some cases I would say. I guess what some would consider a "proper" usage would be either of them channeling their chakra through it or something--Elveonora (talk) 19:19, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
Now THAT would dwindle the user-part of the sword's infobox since hardly any of them does such a thing with them. Anyway, I get the "prominent usage" thing, but almost killing the second main character with a certain tool or having one major antagonist realise the crap he's in due to using the same tool to cut of his body parts seems to be prominent enough IMO. This whole case looks a bit premature, might need more discussion. Noweeaboohoo (talk) 19:26, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

Shoot, if someone picks it up and wields it, it should be added. --Now....Fall Under my Ultimate Genjutsu (talk) 19:29, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

There is and has always been a difference between listing someone as a use of a generic item - sure whatever, vs listing them as wielders of a named tool. If someone takes up the Kohaku no Johei and uses it as a bludgeoning tool, they are to be listed as using the item? Apply that train of thought to listing people as users of items.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 21:29, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

Overestimation in the Juubi Jinchuriki abilities section Edit

Two issues with this part of the article. Minato only said Madara had greater power in his Juubi Jin form than Obito, not "much" great power like the article says. Also, the article says that because he cut through Minato's body while in sage mode, that it means that he has less vulnerability to Sage mode. That is a ridiculous leap in logic, and it implies that Juubi Jinchuriki Obito would not be able to cut Minato in sage mode with a direct hit, which is simply nonsense.

My proposed changes are that we remove the "much" part in Madara's Juubi power in comparison to Obito, and remove the entire sentence about him being less vulnerable to Sage mode chakra because it's pure nonsense.

Kenny U (talk) 01:29, March 24, 2014 (UTC) Kenny U

UPDATE: As of now it has been fixed to an acceptable state, so that is fine now.

Kenny U (talk) 01:44, March 24, 2014 (UTC) Kenny U


New Jinchuriki Image Edit

Hi there, I noticed that the image used to show Madara as the Shinju's Jinchuriki is a little outdated, and I wondered if this could be considered as a replacement.

File:Madara_Rikudo_HD.png

--RIkudo (talk) 02:03, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

I could be wrong (But I'm not) But these images appear to be the exact same one, except yours is kinda grainy, and has cut off part of Madara's foot and one of his floaty orbs, while maintaining a text box I don't think is necessary. I'm not trying to be rude, and maybe they've replaced it or something since you put up this topic, but it would seriously appear to be a downgrade. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 02:11, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

Oh, in that case, sorry. And don't worry, you weren't rude, you were honest, and I appreciate that. --RIkudo (talk) 02:20, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

Same as a past revision of the current image we use for that, that wasn't used precisely because there's a part of the right page missing. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:39, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

Sensor Edit

I don't think Madara is a sensor. First of all, the reference to when he was a child is stupid. He says he's sensitive, not he's a sensor. Second, even people who aren't sensor ninjas can sense strong chakra. Suigetsu and Karin did so with Naruto's chakra. Is there anything else that hints at Madara being a sensor? If not, I suggest we remove that part. Seelentau 愛 18:55, April 1, 2014 (UTC)

The only instances that indicate that Madara is a sensor I recall are the detection of Hashirama, when he was still far away from the battlefield. Madara was the only at that moment that seemed to detect it, so even if Hashirama has strong chakra, him being the only one reacting to it for me indicates sensor abilities. There was also that one time when the Alliance did that huge combo against the Ten-Tails' first form, and Obito said something about them being incapable of sensing the Alliance after the dust and insects came into play, which always confused me a bit because he said that after trying to use the Sharingan. All other displays of sensor like ability I can think of are post theft of Hashirama's senjutsu chakra. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:06, April 1, 2014 (UTC)

Don't even try this one Seel. Why do you think he can't pee when someone stands behind, because he senses them of course.--Elveonora (talk) 22:23, April 1, 2014 (UTC)

Elve, do you really want me to check the raw? :D
Omni-kun, wouldn't Madara need to knead his chakra to sense Hashirama? Like Tobirama didn't do back then when they were kids? I don't think there are "automatic sensors"... Seelentau 愛 10:43, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
Figure he just molded his chakra during that moment. And there may or may not be automatic sensors.--Elveonora (talk) 12:24, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
Was there ever anyone who didn't need to do anything to sense chakra? Seelentau 愛 12:39, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
Naruto in chakra mode and sage mode?--Elveonora (talk) 12:41, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
That's a special form, not something every sensor ninja has. Seelentau 愛 12:48, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
Now you have something more in the table, Naruto sensed Indra inside Sasuke's, so there is a possibility that Madara sensed Hashirama because they had the same conection. Just wondering. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 13:00, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Seel, even though Madara wasn't in the fight at the moment, I find it highly unlikely that he wouldn't at the very least be prepared to leap into it at a moment's notice, and that would include having chakra ready to use. Indra and Asura's chakra is still a situation outside normal sensor limits, if it indeed allows them to detect one another. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:21, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Unique Traits Edit

Madara was able to use Susanoo without using his Rinnegan. What's to say he can't use the Preta Path without the Rinnegan as well? If so that doesn't count as a unique trait. Cloudtheavenger (talk) 07:13, April 7, 2014 (UTC)

The reason why he could use Susanoo with the Rinnegan was revealed to be because Susanoo doesn't even require any eyes at all.--Elveonora (talk) 12:47, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
Where was this mentioned?--Taynio (talk) 21:07, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
Re-read the chapters after Madara gets revived with Rinne Tensei and his eyes crumble. He used Susanoo without eyes there--Elveonora (talk) 22:52, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
Or it just means it has mastered his doujutsu to an extend he can use them (to an extent since he didn't or couldn't manifest the final Susanoo) without his eyes.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 06:19, April 8, 2014 (UTC)
If no one can counter it then I'm requesting deletion of his unique trait.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 04:39, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

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