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== Hashirama Face Implant ==
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Like, it's gone.--'''[[User:Koto Senju|Koto]]'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 17:44, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:When Kaguya left his body, it probably reverted back to ''his'' base form. Any alien entities, no matter how well ingrained, probably left with her. I'm gonna assume the Rinnegan is gone too. --[[User:Atrix471|Atrix471]] ([[User talk:Atrix471|talk]]) 18:32, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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::Likely an oversight--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:09, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:::I'd wait for the next chapter. If Madara reappeared, it means he has still some role to play.--[[File:Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg|15px]] [[User:JOA20|'''JOA''']][[User talk:JOA20|''20'']] 19:18, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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::::He is dead, without the slightest doubt. Seriously, I'm Madara's fan too, but why some people can't get over his death? Yes, it was half-assed, but it happened.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:22, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::@Elveo, Multiple screenshots were shown without the Hashi face implant. Why think it's an oversight? -- '''[[User:Koto Senju|Koto]]'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 19:25, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::@Elveo, I'm not saying Madara ''isn't'' dead, just that he, either his body or soul, has some role to play, otherwise Kishi wouldn't have bothered to make the Kages teleport his body back to Earth as well.--[[File:Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg|15px]] [[User:JOA20|'''JOA''']][[User talk:JOA20|''20'']] 19:26, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::::Let's be honest, Hashirama just wanted to be with his bestie one last time... --[[User:Atrix471|Atrix471]] ([[User talk:Atrix471|talk]]) 19:29, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
   
<center><big><big><big>SPECULATION WILL BE REMOVED</big></big></big></center>
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== Dead? ==
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How can we be absolutely sure Madara's dead? He could just be unconscious. --[[User:M4ND0N|Mandon]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 19:32, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:We aren't, people just like to make assumptions. --[[User:Atrix471|Atrix471]] ([[User talk:Atrix471|talk]]) 19:33, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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::Yes, we are. When a Tailed Beast gets extracted, the jinchuuriki dies. In addition, he was already dead the moment Kaguya took over--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:36, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Generally speaking, when someone is stabbed and their body is used as a medium for the revival of another, they are dead. Considering that Madara's body was used as a medium to revive Kaguya, I would be very surprised if he's still alive. For now, Presumed Deceased is staying, unless a new chapter states he isn't. --[[User:SuperSajuuk|SuperSajuuk]] <sup><small>[[User talk:SuperSajuuk|Talk Page]] | [[User:SuperSajuuk/Images|My Image Uploads]] | [[User:SuperSajuuk/Tabber Code|Tabber Code]] | [http://youtube.com/LPSajuuk Channel]</small></sup> 19:37, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Not only Kaguya took over which killed him, but also it is the manga's rule that extraction of a Tailed Beast kills the jinchuuriki.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:40, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Obito got impaled through the chest and later forced to use a jutsu that guarantees death and he still lived through it. Besides, Madara's wounds are all gone now.. it's very possible that he's currently alive and will get a proper death scene in the next chapter. --[[User:M4ND0N|Mandon]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 19:44, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::We don't do "I think it's possible" the difference is that Obito had Black Zetsu, Gedo Mazo and Naruto's Jesus hand to keep him alive.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:47, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::::Please, we all know Kishi physically cannot leave a villain die without being redeemed in some way. If Madara dies, how will TNJ work? --[[User:Atrix471|Atrix471]] ([[User talk:Atrix471|talk]]) 19:49, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::::All I'm saying is we can and should wait until there's absolutely no doubt he's dead. That's why we listed him as "Presumed Deceased" even after his existence was seemingly wiped out with Kaguya's revival. You've been told this time and time again Elv but for the millionth time, stop jumping to conclusions and editing articles with conjecture. Remember a few years ago when you opted for us to wait a week when Tobi was unmasked, even though all the evidence pointed to him being Obito? I hate it when people hold others to a standard they can't adhere to.. so like I said, let's just wait. --[[User:M4ND0N|Mandon]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 19:52, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:I think people are forgetting that the Tailed Beast Extraction killing the user rule doesn't apply too Jinchuriki's of the Shinju it only leaves them paralyzed.--[[User:Thdyingbreed|Thdyingbreed]] ([[User talk:Thdyingbreed|talk]]) 22:06, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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::If he really is dead, how can he be summoned? You are too quick to assume that Madara is dead, just like when you turned out to be wrong about Obito. Also, it was never confirmed that he died when Kaguya took over. [[User:Patsoumas1995|Patsoumas1995]] ([[User talk:Patsoumas1995|talk]]) 23:15, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:::@Thdying, that's not what was stated. The reason Hagoromo survived was because he extracted only the chakra while leaving the body of the Ten-Tails inside of him, which kept him alive but resulted in paralysis.
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:::@Patsoumas, Pains are corpses, they can be summoned. Kunai and Shuriken are inanimate, they can be summoned, your point?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 09:43, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Pain's corpses are reanimated through the power of the Rinnengan, and the Kunai & Shuriken are summoned through scrolls, not Summoning Technique. When a person dies, his chakra disappears, so how would Madara be summoned if he is dead? And also, I don't think that it is stated that the Jinchuriki dies immediately after the Bijuu is extracted. [[User:Patsoumas1995|Patsoumas1995]] ([[User talk:Patsoumas1995|talk]]) 10:09, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::The only point that matters is that Madara isn't definitively confirmed to be deceased, therefore we can't call him deceased. --[[User:M4ND0N|Mandon]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 18:31, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::Except he is. Do I need to slap the chapter and page onto your face where Zetsu says how it's a rule that when a Tailed Beast is extracted, the jinchuuriki dies? Seriously, I like Madara too, but this fanboy bias is getting out of control. How you feel towards a certain character shouldn't affect what you want to go or don't want to go into his/her article.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:35, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::::Didn't seem to kill Killer B all that much. He's alive until he we know he's dead, though death is likely. "Presumed Deceased".--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Eye of Rikudō.svg|30px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 18:56, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
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:You beat me, well done, okay then. (I wonder how B survived though, the tentacle things makes me go crazy)--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:00, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
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::Need I remind you Elv that Madara still had the gedo statue inside of him [or Kaguya] when the TB's were extracted? That rule doesn't apply here. Madara was never explicitly confirmed to be dead, therefore we wait. --[[User:M4ND0N|Mandon]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 19:38, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
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:::He didn't/doesn't have the "statue"--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:48, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
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::::He did when the Tailed Beasts were extracted, thus removing the certainty of death. --[[User:M4ND0N|Mandon]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 20:55, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Yin-Kurama stated that Ten-Tails' jinchūriki survive the tailed beasts' extraction only if they have the Demonic Statue in their body because of its strong life force – meaning, if the Statue is extracted as well, the jinchūriki's case is no different from any other tailed beast's jinchūriki.--[[File:Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg|15px]] [[User:JOA20|'''JOA''']][[User talk:JOA20|''20'']] 21:06, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::I think you both need to re-read the chapter because you don't seem to remember the order of events. It wasn't Statue > Tailed beasts. It was Tailed Beasts > Statue, meaning the tailed beasts were extracted from Kaguya/Madara while the statue was still inside them and ''then'' the statue/Kaguya spat out Madara, meaning the effects of the statue are still in place. --[[User:M4ND0N|Mandon]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 00:43, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::::There are no lasting effects. The "statue" keeps them alive only for as long as it's inside, not once it's extracted as well.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:39, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
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:If the jinchuriki dies immediately after the Biju/Gedo Mazo is removed, why was Obito still alive after Black Zetsu left his body? He had the Gedo Mazo & the 9 Biju extracted from his body AND he had used the Rinne Tensei. I'm sure Madara will eventually die after the extraction, but nothing says that he is already dead. [[User:Patsoumas1995|Patsoumas1995]] ([[User talk:Patsoumas1995|talk]]) 15:33, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
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::And as we all said, Madara was still alive. [[User:Patsoumas1995|Patsoumas1995]] ([[User talk:Patsoumas1995|talk]]) 11:39, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
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:::To say 2 sentences, thus was dead.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:40, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
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::::He was still alive, and died after that. It's different being dead & close to death. [[User:Patsoumas1995|Patsoumas1995]] ([[User talk:Patsoumas1995|talk]]) 12:36, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Now he's '''very obviously dead''', can we stop this discussion and update the infobox? --[[User:SuperSajuuk|SuperSajuuk]] <sup><small>[[User talk:SuperSajuuk|Talk Page]] | [[User:SuperSajuuk/Images|My Image Uploads]] | [[User:SuperSajuuk/Tabber Code|Tabber Code]] | [http://youtube.com/LPSajuuk Channel]</small></sup> 12:39, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::Not saying he isn't dead '''now''', I'm saying that he wasn't dead in the previous chapter, as some were hurried to assume. [[User:Patsoumas1995|Patsoumas1995]] ([[User talk:Patsoumas1995|talk]]) 12:45, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
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There's no need to pick at people with hindsight. Let it simply be a lesson to people not to jump the gun when they think somebody's dead. Nobody was denying he'd probably die in the next chapter anyways. --[[User:M4ND0N|Mandon]] ([[User talk:M4ND0N|talk]]) 17:15, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Kabuto didn't enhance Madara's power ==
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== Storm Release is not his kekkei genkai ==
   
Chapter 601 has provided an effective explanation of what Kabuto meant by "resurrecting Madara beyond his prime". We saw that Madara was elderly, much more so than the likes of Danzo, Hiruzen or the elders. Like 85+ years old. And still, he was resurrected in his youthful form. That's what Kabuto's experimentation was about. He managed to revive Madara with all the power he has amassed right until his death, yet in a youthful body. That's what makes him "complete beyond his prime". It's not like Kabuto added any powers to Madara, he just made him young again (Madara himself said very much the same thing). I thereby suggest to reword all the instances suggesting that Kabuto's experimentation made Madara more powerful. It should be stated more as that it brought him back in his youthful body but with all the powers he had acquired until his old age, inclusive. [[User:Xfing|Xfing]] ([[User talk:Xfing|talk]]) 19:15, September 11, 2012 (UTC)
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He gained it by becoming the Juubie's jinchuriki, just like Rosh and Naruto gained Lava Release from Son, its not a kekkei genkai it's a tailed beast skill.--[[User:Hunter4522|Hunter4522]] ([[User talk:Hunter4522|talk]]) 23:26, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:We don't know for sure either way, you can't be so sure.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 09:43, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
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::The ones that posses all bijuu chakras can create the truth seeking ball and have all the chakra natures and kekkei genkai--[[User:Hunter4522|Hunter4522]] ([[User talk:Hunter4522|talk]]) 15:11, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Actually, no such thing was stated in official translation about all kekkei genkai. Fire, Wind, Earth, Lightning, Wood, Yin, Yang were attributed to Kaguya, with Wood possibly being an error, supposed to be Water instead.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:30, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
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::::So how is Wood Release a kekkei genkai? Is it because the Uchiha and Senju are both descended from the Sage of the Six Paths? I thought Wood Release was only a Senju kekkei genkai...[[User talk:Banan14kab|'''''<span style="color:black">Banan'''''</span><span style="color:grey">'''14'''</span>'''''<span style="color:crimson" >kab</span>''''']]
   
No, reviving his into his prime = making him young again. "Beyond his prime" = stronger than in his youth.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:24, September 11, 2012 (UTC)
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== Wind release ==
   
:That's what I said. He's revived into his prime age-wise, but has powers exceeding it, like the Rinnegan he awakened shortly before his death. So what Kabuto did is just revive Madara young with all the powers he amassed into old age. This doesn't mean for example that the Hashirama face on Madara's chest is an effect of Kabuto's work like the article suggests. [[User:Xfing|Xfing]] ([[User talk:Xfing|talk]]) 21:21, September 16, 2012 (UTC)
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I thought Madara's wind release was anime only so why is that caption gone?--[[User:Rinneganmaster|Rinneganmaster]] ([[User talk:Rinneganmaster|talk]]) 20:07, August 31, 2014 (UTC)
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:Because he used Storm Release, which is made up of Wind and Water. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 20:11, August 31, 2014 (UTC)
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::That would be Ice... Lightning and Water you mean. You should go to bed :P--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 20:12, August 31, 2014 (UTC)
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:::...hmph. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 20:12, August 31, 2014 (UTC)
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Exactly, I believe we should put anime only.--[[User:Rinneganmaster|Rinneganmaster]] ([[User talk:Rinneganmaster|talk]]) 23:00, August 31, 2014 (UTC)
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:Yeah, why was the anime only tag removed?--[[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User:WindStar7125]] [[User talk:WindStar7125|<sup>(Talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|<sub>(Contribs)</sub>]] 00:37, September 1, 2014 (UTC)
   
Can I please add that it never said the old guy with the sharingan madara? For all we know it could be a random old uchiha who introduced him to madara for all we know...
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Hey shouldn't the Storm Release be listed in Madara's kekkei genkai, after all it is an advance chakra nature and a bloodline trait. I mean I know Madara only acessed it through like the six paths senjutsu but still it should be added its a form of kekkei genkai. i'm not saying that we should list his storm release jutsu as a kekkei genkai, but just simply put it in his infobox. --[[User:Tuxedo12|Tuxedo12]] ([[User talk:Tuxedo12|talk]]) 04:38, September 3, 2014 (UTC)
Speculation...
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:We don't know how he could use it. Stating it was because of jinchuuriki status is no more speculative than stating it was because of kkg, because at the end of the day, we don't know--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 08:24, September 3, 2014
[[Special:Contributions/166.147.89.161|166.147.89.161]] ([[User talk:166.147.89.161|talk]]) 03:56, September 12, 2012 (UTC)
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(UTC)
   
-_- it looks exactly like Madara but old so there is no way it is anybody else... and Elveonora is right from what I see. [[Special:Contributions/173.66.119.89|173.66.119.89]] ([[User talk:173.66.119.89|talk]]) 09:41, September 12, 2012 (UTC)
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Did Kaguya say the Truthseeking ball is made of all elements? If that's true than Madara's a wind release user.--[[User:Rinneganmaster|Rinneganmaster]] ([[User talk:Rinneganmaster|talk]]) 21:13, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
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:There's a still an argument going if the description was about her own alone or in general--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:15, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
   
People ****ing need to learn some reading comprehension or/and check their eyes, ur like 100th person with "who was that old guy?" doubt and question. It looks like old Madara, and the flashback happened after Kakashi asked Obito why did he join him.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:40, September 12, 2012 (UTC)
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== Loss of Rinnegan ==
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Since when, I wonder, does a loss of Hashirama's face mean Madara has lost his Rinnegan, when he didn't have that when he awoke those eyes? Thats not confirmed anywhere. Nor is it conformed that a loss of hashirama's cells at all would mean he lost the Rinnegan. Its a kekkei genkai and was in his blood from the time he awakened it. ([[User:The Fox King|The Fox King]] [[User talk:The Fox King|(talk)]] 21:59, September 4, 2014 (UTC))
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:The manga made it quite clear, Madara lost all his enhancements before death. If he still had Hashirama's cells, they would have helped him survive like they did with Obito. If he still had his Rinnegan, Mdara's eyes would have still shown it. The Rinnegan was only awoken by a combination of Indra and Asura's chakra, and Madara lost Asura's chakra thus his eyes reverted back to the state they were before. Its really quite simple. --[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 22:14, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
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::Madara is able to switched between Rinnegan and other dojutsu at will, and may just have been too weak to keep it active at death. Again, we don't know he lost all of hashirama's cells, just the face, which wasn't there at the start. Plus Rinnegan isn't an enhancement for Madara, its naturally his. --[[User:The Fox King|The Fox King]] [[User talk:The Fox King|(talk)]] 22:19, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
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:::@Saiyaman No, that really is quite stupid. Madara's eyes did exactly what Itachi's did when he died and turned back into their normal form. Madara awakened the Rinnegan. It doesn't just disappear. When they run out of chakra, their eyes go back to normal, because the eyes require chakra to remain active. So, before you try again, SuperSaiyaMan, you are not to add anything about Madara losing the Rinnegan because he didn't. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Rinnegan Sasuke.svg|20px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 22:21, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Uh, we see the Sharingan still in his eyes meaning that comparison doesn't make sense, Ten-Tailed Fox. The tomoe were still there. And Hagoromo made it clear how a Rinnegan is awoken: Indra and Asura's chakra mixes together, bringing out Hagoromo's. If Madara still possessed Hashirama's cells, why did he die so quickly compared to Obito? --[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 22:24, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Obito had things like the Gedo Statue, Black Zetsu, a higher concentration of Hashirama's cells, and Naruto's "Jesus" hand keeping him alive all that time at different points. Thats why. Madara had, at the end from the looks of it, at best just the cells he stuck in his chest originally, which again we don't know he lost and none of those other things. --[[User:The Fox King|The Fox King]] [[User talk:The Fox King|(talk)]] 22:27, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::Um, @SuperSaiyaMan, where are the tomoe? I see no Sharingan in his eyes at all. They just look blank. --[[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User talk:WindStar7125]] [[File:WindStar7125's Task.svg|20px|link=Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|]] 22:30, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::::Page 9, bottom right panel. You see the Tomoe in the edges. Though if Ten Tailed Fox doesn't want it to be put down, okay. Maybe in the next chapters we'll get some confirmation since no one in their right mind would want those Rinnegan to stay around with Orochimaru being there. --[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 22:34, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
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:I've already seen the page, I know what I said when I typed in "They just look blank." Those aren't tomoe. It looks like he used Izanagi twice or something. --[[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User talk:WindStar7125]] [[File:WindStar7125's Task.svg|20px|link=Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|]] 22:39, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
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::If the Rinnengan disappears when Indra's & Asura's chakra are not combined, how could Nagato, who only has Indra's through the eyes, keep the Rinnengan active? --[[User:Patsoumas1995|Patsoumas1995]] ([[User talk:Patsoumas1995|talk]]) 23:21, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
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:::I think its due to being a Uzumaki and Senju descendant he was able to maintain the implanted Rinnegan, given both clans are descended from Asura. --[[User:SuperSaiyaMan|SuperSaiyaMan]] ([[User talk:SuperSaiyaMan|talk]]) 00:40, September 5, 2014 (UTC)
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::::I suppose that's why he was called 3rd Six Paths despite it having been just an implant --[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 10:12, September 5, 2014 (UTC)
   
:There is no need to go off on people like that. Not everyone will be as quick on the uptake as you are. When I first saw the face, for a moment I thought Nagato was back... People will get things wrong sometimes--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 15:57, September 12, 2012 (UTC)
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== Dead 3 times ==
   
Yes, of course not everyone is a fast-thinker ... but when dozens of people don't get it, there's something wrong. I have seen people stating absurdities about things in a chapter that weren't even there, like slime coming from Obito's arm, while that was a piece of clothing etc. Since the flashback was in response to a question about Madara, the old dude there was obviously him.
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Madara has never died 3 times during the entire series, but 2. He died the first time when he was an old man, he got revived during the war by Obito's Rinne Tensei and died for his second and last time when Kaguya was defeated and Madara had the Jubi extracted from his body.
And lol Cerez, since when was Nagato '''that old back then''' and with a Sharingan? :)
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I red over there that some users are taking madara's status when Kaguya took over his body as dead, which is not right. He just was unconscious, deeply inside Kaguya. And the irrefutable fact that he had never died after this event, despite some characters of the series thinking the opposite (Tobirama's attempt to use Edo Tensei), is clearly given to us 2 chapters ago; Kaguya defeated, and Madara ALIVE sharing his last moments with Hashirama.
They just look very alike (in before adopted son/clone theories)--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:00, September 12, 2012 (UTC)
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Please, we have to begin to use common sense when we create discussion articles. Have that trivia note about his deaths erased, it's not true. --[[User:KILLERBEE479|KILLERBEE479]] ([[User talk:KILLERBEE479|talk]]) 19:07, September 10, 2014 (UTC)
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: The first time he died at Hashirama's hands and revived himself through Izanagi. The Second as an old man. The Third time was after extracting the Tailed Beasts.--[[User:MERCURIOUS|MERCURIOUS]] ([[User talk:MERCURIOUS|talk]]) 19:11, September 10, 2014 (UTC)
   
Guys, back on topic. I will try to explain my reasoning. This is all based on facts, there's little if any speculation involved.
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== Fire Release ==
Kabuto said that Madara has been restored beyond his prime. "Prime" can be considered as the pinnacle of power as well as young age. Let's look at what Madara had in life.
 
   
[+] - he had it [-] - he lacked it
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is it safe to assume that fire is his affinity, and maybe add it to the infobox...based on the fact that uchiha members have affinity for & proficiency with it...also for the most part of the series he used this nature more over the others... --[[User:DARK ZER06|DARK ZER06]] ([[User talk:DARK ZER06|talk]]) 11:50, September 15, 2014 (UTC)
  +
:No assumptions. For example according to the anime, Sasuke's affinity is Lightning. And yeah, I know manga > anime, but we can't ignore the anime. But just in case the anime is correct in Lightning being Sasuke's affinity, then it may be possible for someone to have 2 affinities. In fact, according to the anime, advanced nature kekkei genkai = having affinity for 2 natures thus being capable to merge them. They pulled this outta their arses, because Kishi said no such thing, but again, in case they are right, then Sasuke's affinities may be both Fire and Lightning and taking the kekkei genkai part into consideration, it would explain Blaze Release :D :D :D--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:56, September 15, 2014 (UTC)
  +
::There can't be two affinities, because that would not be what an affinity is. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 11:59, September 15, 2014 (UTC)
  +
:::Tell that to Studio Pierrot :P In fact, there may be 3 (Kekkei Tota) according to them. Now I mention it, I don't think we have documented this anywhere, we simply ignored it I guess--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:03, September 15, 2014 (UTC)
   
Prime Madara:
+
well if someone has affinity for 2 natures or more then it's not necessary to put it for both natures at all...but if someone like naruto or kakashi has an affinity for one nature & uses that one nature more that other natures as in kakashi's case then it's right to put affinity for that nature in the infobox...I'm suggesting the same for madara's fire...and maybe obito too now that I think about it...since he too hade fire as his original nature and used it more that other natures...and possibly any other character with these conditions...like...idk temari for example...or kitsuchi...or earth for onoki...hope I've made my point clear... --[[User:DARK ZER06|DARK ZER06]] ([[User talk:DARK ZER06|talk]]) 12:06, September 15, 2014 (UTC)
[+] EMS
+
:Frequency of nature's usage isn't necessarily a determinant of an affinity.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:08, September 15, 2014 (UTC)
[+] Young Age
 
[-] Hashirama Tissue/Wood Release
 
[-] Rinnegan
 
   
Older Madara
+
then what is... --[[User:DARK ZER06|DARK ZER06]] ([[User talk:DARK ZER06|talk]]) 12:11, September 15, 2014 (UTC)
[+] EMS
+
:Affinity means natural talent towards a certain nature... a genetic predisposition if you will.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:14, September 15, 2014 (UTC)
[+] Hashirama Tissue/Wood Release
 
[+] Rinnegan - progressed from EMS in conjunction with Senju DNA
 
   
Super Old Madara
+
doesn't madara have that natural talent & genetic predisposition towards fire?...based on what V've seen from him in the manga... --[[User:DARK ZER06|DARK ZER06]] ([[User talk:DARK ZER06|talk]]) 12:21, September 15, 2014 (UTC)
[-] Rinnegan - he gave it away to Nagato
+
:Likely, but we weren't told Fire is his affinity, so we can't assume so--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:23, September 15, 2014 (UTC)
[-] Young Age
 
[+] Hashirama Tissue/Wood Release - actually he'd probably been experimenting with that shit ever since the battle at VotE. He already had the flower tree grown etc.
 
   
Now what Kabuto meant by enhancing Madara is the following:
+
sooo...V R putting the term affinity for only 2 characters in the entire series in this wiki & not for other characters with similar conditions?...ok --[[User:DARK ZER06|DARK ZER06]] ([[User talk:DARK ZER06|talk]]) 12:26, September 15, 2014 (UTC)
1) he resurrected him in his prime, age-wise, (normal Edo would have revived him an old man), while at the same time having access to powers he unlocked way later in life, i.e. past his prime. Like the Wood Release he got only after VotE and working with Hashirama tissue.
+
:Because we were told what those characters' affinities are.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:29, September 15, 2014 (UTC)
2) he resurrected him with his peak abilities intact, that is assuming that Hashirama really did fuck him up after the battle at VotE. And I think he really did, if he hadn't, then why didn't Madara start wreaking havoc again right after he healed up? He probably really did become the shell of his former self, and normal Edo Tensei would have revived him as such. I admit that this point is speculative, though, so it can be skipped.
 
3) he resurrected him with his original pair of eyes (that is the Rinnegan), even though Madara lacked these eyes at the time of his death. Normal Edo would have resurrected him with that single little left Sharingan replacement instead.
 
 
That's what Kabuto meant by saying Madara was completed beyond his prime. He indeed was - he was young and yet possessed abilities he never had in his youth (not until after the VotE battle, at least). that's why he was "enhanced beyond his prime". '''It's erroneous, though, to think that Kabuto created any of these abilities, as Madara did it himself. He even said so.''' Kabuto merely took them all and put them in the right place - that is, the young body of Madara.
 
 
Edo Madara:
 
[+] Young Age
 
[+] EMS
 
[+] Hashirama Tissue/Wood Release
 
[+] Rinnegan
 
 
Not to mention the Edo Tensei perks. Now compare this to Prime Madara and see why this one's better. [[User:Xfing|Xfing]] ([[User talk:Xfing|talk]]) 15:59, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Susanoo ? ==
 
 
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/File:Madara%27s_chakra_and_gunbai.jpg
 
is that some kind of susanoo ? or just his chakra being chanelled through the gunbai and shaped into a wall against the outer path's spears ?--[[Special:Contributions/201.1.21.80|201.1.21.80]] ([[User talk:201.1.21.80|talk]]) 11:18, September 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
:Going with the former.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 11:19, September 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
:: Gonna have to disagree there. The chakra begins being channeled immediately when Madara grabs his gunbai. In the next panel, when the shield actually appears, he is see holding his gunbai in a defensive position, whereas when he received it, he was just holding out beside him. There is some significance with that. Furthermore, in the panels following that one, when the barrier flares up, its just that, a barrier. There are no bones and none of the typical formations of Susanoo. Thirdly, Susanoo has never been formed into a wall before. We have seen Madara extensively use his Susanoo in earlier battles and have seen both Itachi and Sasuke make liberal use of their Susanoo, and in none of its three incarnations has it shown to be A) just chakra manifesting without any skeletal structure and B) forming into a wall-like structure. This is obviously coming from the gunbai and is some kind of barrier technique. I doubt it is the [[Uchiha Flame Battle Encampment]], but it is clear that it is coming from the gunbai and that it is ''not'' Susanoo. I'll make a page for it, but if anyone disagrees with me, just have it deleted. The evidence is sufficient to suggest in favor of this argument though. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 03:55, September 13, 2012 (UTC)
 
: '''EDIT''': Not to mention, seen [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i25wt0DV5h0&feature=related here] the sheild Madara creates covers himself AND Obito as well as the aura around just their bodies. Susanoo only covers one person at a time. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 04:00, September 13, 2012 (UTC)
 
It looks like Susanoo. [[User:Arrancar79|Arrancar79]] ([[User talk:Arrancar79|talk]]) 04:46, September 13, 2012 (UTC)
 
:: Yes and the Uchiha Flame Battle Encampment looks like the [[Four Violet Flames Battle Encampment]]. The point is, numerous techniques are virtual look alikes in terms of how they are colored and appeared, but just because an attack is colored like Susanoo doesn't make it Susanoo. Like I said, there are no bones, there is no nothing that would indicate Susanoo. Nothing at all. Not even a small fragment. Even the way it used is fundamentally different from Susanoo. In all instances of Susanoo being used for defense, the user ''at least'' manifests the ribcage. Using a ''wall'' has never happened. Nor has a Susanoo ever covered two people at once in its aura in just its initial state (or any stage for that matter, while all three panels clearly show it covering both Obito and Madara. That alone is enough evidence it isn't Susanoo. Furthermore, the chakra is literally shown covering just the gunbai the page ''after'' the barrier is used. The gunbai was placed in a defensive position before the barrier manifested. The gunbai is clearly the source of the barrier. Not Madara. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 04:58, September 13, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Wind nature or Return of Uchiha? ==
 
As we never saw what Madara did in the AMV from the game exactly, would it be less speculative to think it was RoU or was the anime only wind nature from something else I missed? [[User:Arrancar79|Arrancar79]] ([[User talk:Arrancar79|talk]]) 04:19, September 14, 2012 (UTC)
 
: Personally, I have the game and have seen the cut scene for myself, and its pretty obvious what happened. There's a gust of wind knocking back a large amount of ninja, followed by the scene cutting to Madara with his gunbai. Though he is not seen in the action of swinging the fan, you have to use common sense here to deduce who is using it. So yes, his usage of the fan to produce wind gusts in the OVA is considered anime usage. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 05:03, September 14, 2012 (UTC)
 
::: I have the game myself and have watched the scene many times. I wasn't questioning who used it but questioning what happened. He was attacked then we see his attackers blown back accompanied by a disturbance of the air and flattened grass. It was not much of a stretch then to guess what happened but knowing what we know now I believe it is more responsible to attribute it to a use of Return of Uchiha. Unless RoU is stated to have a Wind nature it should be removed till he's seen using a Wind jutsu IMO. [[User:Arrancar79|Arrancar79]] ([[User talk:Arrancar79|talk]]) 23:40, September 14, 2012 (UTC)
 
::::I've seen the video of those scenes at youtube, and it was pretty clear for me that he made a gust of wind with his gunbai, the likes of which only makes sense through the use of Wind Release. I wouldn't say Uchiha Return is a Wind Release, but it should still be there as long as those scenes are considered anime. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:53, September 14, 2012 (UTC)
 
:::I have to disagree. It's speculative to continue citing Madara as having a Chakra nature based on so little. He's never used a wind technique and we now see he has the ability to redirect force/jutsu with his war fan. [[User:Arrancar79|Arrancar79]] ([[User talk:Arrancar79|talk]]) 00:15, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
 
::::What are you suggesting them? To consider the thing he did in the ova as Uchiha Return? It didn't seem like a defensive move to me, it seemed quite offensive. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 00:57, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
 
:::Yes that's what I'm suggesting. I don't see a difference in how he used it against Naruto rushing him and the group be knocked away. [[User:Arrancar79|Arrancar79]] ([[User talk:Arrancar79|talk]]) 02:11, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
 
::::Against Naruto, he turned the force of his own attack against him. I don't recall any attack being directed at Madara for him to reflect at any opponent, there might have been some shinobing running towards him, but it was Madara who made the first attack. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 02:18, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
 
:::They were both attacking. He swung his fan as they lept at him. Return of Uchiha is a reasonable explanation for what happened, more so than than to attribute a new elemental nature to him and an un-named wind technique IMO. [[User:Arrancar79|Arrancar79]] ([[User talk:Arrancar79|talk]]) 02:43, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
 
::::Just watched the video at youtube again. I guess it could be Uchiha Return, but I find it very odd that the force of reflecting taijutsu and maybe a few blades would cause so much of the vegetation at his feet to bend. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 02:54, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Sorry didn't see this when I reverted. I don't believe that the techniques I saw in the ova fight and the one in the manga are the same. They're repelling entirely different things and I'd feel much more comfortable listing him as having Wind Release as opposed to saying it was this technique. [[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 12:30, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
I'm for the Wind Release being kept (there's anime only for a purpose so people know it's not canon) because by your suggestion, it would be much more confusing and shitting on canon as at the time the scene was animated, Return of the Uchiha wasn't yet revealed in the manga so the animators had no idea such things exists--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:39, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
 
:I can accept the wind nature but it wouldn't be the first thing to show up in Anime first and then manga. If I remember right, Kishi was involved in those scenes as well but maybe not, either way I digress. :) [[User:Arrancar79|Arrancar79]] ([[User talk:Arrancar79|talk]]) 09:07, September 16, 2012 (UTC)
 
::Kishimoto was not involved in those scenes, any at all. If what was done in the OVA and the manga are supposed to be the same, then that would mean that all those people Madara blew away jumped on his gunbai and all those weapons did so as well. I was thinking about it and Madara waited for Naruto to <u>make contact</u> with the gunbai before using the technique instead of just blowing him out of the air. Which is why I doubt those two instances are the same.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 10:04, September 16, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Picture ==
 
 
I know this was discussed before, but this really bugs me. Isn't there an adequate and "colored" (the current one is colored but is b&W) picture to put in the infobox?--[[User:Holyn|Holyn]] ([[User talk:Holyn|talk]]) 18:08, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
 
:There is not. At least not to my knowledge.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 10:07, September 16, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Abilities contradiction ==
 
 
I noticed a contradiction in the Abilities section. There is on part that says "After activating his Rinnegan and using it in conjunction with his Susanoo", yet in the Rinnegan heading it states "However, it sould be noted that while using the powers granted by one dōjustu he cannot simultaneously access those granted by another." So can he use both the Rinnegan and Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan at the same time or no? {{unsigned|67.233.155.40}}
 
 
the latter line is 100% speculative and should be removed... he uses Susanoo with Rinnegan all the time, and it's logical that in order to use Rinnegan powers, he has to activate it, just like a Sharingan can't use MS powers--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:46, September 16, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Doesn't change the fact that after having the Rinnegan activated, he had to switch to EMS to cast genjutsu at the Raikage. At least some abilities are restrained to each dōjutsu. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 19:06, September 16, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Alrighty that clears things up a little [[User:Konoha&#39;sBlackXandXWhiteFlash|Konoha&#39;sBlackXandXWhiteFlash]] ([[User talk:Konoha&#39;sBlackXandXWhiteFlash|talk]]) 02:13, September 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Madara gave Nagato ==
 
 
Madara gave Nagato his eyes when Nagato was a kid... So Nagato Possess's the Sharingan and Eternal Mangekyo too. [[Special:Contributions/173.66.119.89|173.66.119.89]] ([[User talk:173.66.119.89|talk]]) 07:21, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
 
:We don't know how it works. From everything we've seen, Nagato only has access to the Rinnegan.--[[Special:Contributions/210.56.81.34|210.56.81.34]] ([[User talk:210.56.81.34|talk]]) 09:33, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
 
::Agree with the former. At least wait for the rest of the story.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 09:52, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Or he just never used it on panel... he probably used it to use genjutsu such as on those ame ninja he put extremely powerful genjutsu blocks in. we don't know either way. [[User:ItachiWasAHero|ItachiWasAHero]] ([[User talk:ItachiWasAHero|talk]]) 10:22, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
 
:Things like ^that is exactly why we should wait. We don't have to be piecing anything together, Kishimoto is telling us the story, for now, we make mention what was said in the manga and leave it at that...--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 10:30, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Didn't Madara say he left his real eyes with someone else? When Obito was posing as him he told Konan "I gave Nagato the Rinnegan." That's evidence enough, IMO. And as for Nagato not possessing the Sharingan, Kakashi can't shut his Sharingan off because he's not an Uchiha, so it stands to reason Nagato can't shut the Rinnegan off either. At least this chapter confirms Madara created Zetsu. [[Special:Contributions/207.216.193.120|207.216.193.120]] ([[User talk:207.216.193.120|talk]]) 12:29, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
why, any user can't wait for a few more weeks to get more Information? --[[User:MaskedManMadara|MaskedManMadara]] ([[User talk:MaskedManMadara|talk]]) 16:51, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Loss of power ==
 
 
What proof has their been that Madara had lost any of his powers in his old age. Chapter 602 points more to not being able to use them due to not having two Sharingan and because of dwindled chakra reserves rather than actually having lost them. What Tobi has never been proven. It was just his statement and was probably something he said to make his story about being Madara and resorting to that method sound believable. But there has never been any proof backing him up. The Fox King([[User:The Fox King|tylerbryant547@gmail.com]] ([[User talk:The Fox King|talk]]) 17:50, September 19, 2012 (UTC))
 
:That statement was already changed...--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]]18:01, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Yes, I just saw. Sorry. The Fox King([[User:The Fox King|tylerbryant547@gmail.com]] ([[User talk:The Fox King|talk]]) 18:08, September 19, 2012 (UTC))
 
 
== Nagato ==
 
 
Madara said he entrusted his eyes to someone else!!!!!!! Could it be nagato? I mean, it's all there. He said he awakened his Rinnegan shortly before his death, and gave it to nagato. Someone please comment, or at least say it's likely.--[[Special:Contributions/24.166.174.117|24.166.174.117]] ([[User talk:24.166.174.117|talk]]) 20:24, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
 
: [[#Madara gave Nagato]]. --[[User:Aged Goblin|<font size="4"><span style='color: Goblin'><font face="Old English Text MT">'''''The Goblin'''''</font></span></font>]] 20:30, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Gedo Mazo life support system beginning ==
 
 
Why should we say in Madara's article that he was on the Gedo Mazo from the time he sustained the injuries in the last fight with Hashirama until he died when he himself has not said he was and we don't know that he was? The Fox King([[User:The Fox King|tylerbryant547@gmail.com]] ([[User talk:The Fox King|talk]]) 22:46, September 20, 2012 (UTC))
 
:The "Mazou" that he mentions isn't the Gedo Mazo, but [[Hashirama's Living Clone]] and that term (mazou) means statue --[[User:MaskedManMadara|MaskedManMadara]] ([[User talk:MaskedManMadara|talk]]) 18:25, September 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
::The Mazō is there in the image of him announcing himself to Obito. You have to strain your eyes because of the scans but the statue is there sitting in the yet-to-be fully-opened flower. If Madara had meant Hashirama's Living Clone he would have referred to it as what he did when he told Obito that he had used it to reconstruct his body; that clone isn't a statue.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 18:31, September 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
:::oh, yeah? I don't know it, I think it to be a statue O_O. but thanks Cerez365, is more things that I know now. [[User:MaskedManMadara|MaskedManMadara]] ([[User talk:MaskedManMadara|talk]]) 18:48, September 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Why does it say that his injuries from his last fight with Hashirama caused him to have to be on the statue from that point till death when that can't be? He'd need the Rinnegan, which he didn't have then, to summon it and make use of that chakra and he himself didn't say he had been on the Mazo since that last fight. Why should the article say that as though it were a fact that he was? The Fox King([[User:The Fox King|tylerbryant547@gmail.com]] ([[User talk:The Fox King|talk]]) 23:32, September 21, 2012 (UTC))
 
 
That's a speculation and should be removed... not to mention that would make it more than 40 years he was trapped underground.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:48, September 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
 
He could'nt have been on the mazou life support (oh i love to say that) from Hashirama's victory t'ill Obito wound up in his underground passageway. Because he would have needed to give that "person" (most likely Nagato) his eyes (most likely the rinnegan), and he was alive for decades and decades after his suppossed defeat, so i'd think that he was incredibley old by that point.[[Special:Contributions/98.26.240.62|98.26.240.62]] ([[User talk:98.26.240.62|talk]]) 00:02, September 22, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan
 
 
No man. Madara walked away from the fight and then lived a healthy and happy life. Sewed some wild oats (hence we have Nagato and Rasputia Uchiha) and then contracted cancer in his old age. What we saw there was just chemotherapy with primitive machinery... That's definitely what happened.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 11:50, September 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Why that sarcasm? Read above, in the case he was there since Hashirama "defeat" that would make it more than 40 years, not to mention he likely met Yahiko and Nagato.... hard to believe their meeting was underground--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:31, September 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:Because there's no other way to respond to this. Madara's article is being edited to say he went on live a long life, through three wars (because he participated in them ~_~) as if he got up from the fight with Hashirama and was fine and dandy, and then contracted a disease in his old age and had to go on life support which is rubbish. Tobi told us that the fight left him a shell of his former self not because he was making excuses for only using Kamui but because it did in fact leave him a shell; unless I'm reading another manga. I've said it before but nothing Tobi has said so far has been a lie. He's only ever omitted the truth. I understand that people love Madara but there's nothing to it but to accept the fact that Hashirama crippled him severely and he lived out the rest of his life in a hole.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:40, September 23, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
That's right, Obito never really lied. "I, Uchiha Madara" didn't have anything to do with Kurama attacking Konoha ;)
 
Now you mention it, it's a possibility... could explain that "hell" and "ghost of Uchiha Madara" parts. He "lived" there since then and considered himself as dead.
 
Poor Madara 0_0--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:09, September 23, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
The Fading into obscurity thing I put in there is there to say that he was never seen or heard from again. What I wrote is there to say he lived through them, not that he fought them. He did get stronger, shown in everything he has now for the sake of his Eye of the Moon plan. The reason he was on the Gedo when he was old isn't known. Could have been because he was too old and needed it, even with Hashirama's cells. He was was over 100 The Fox King([[User:The Fox King|tylerbryant547@gmail.com]] ([[User talk:The Fox King|talk]]) 15:13, September 23, 2012 (UTC))
 
 
:<sup>'''''editconflict'''''</sup> If people consider Obito calling himself Madara simply a "lie" then they are reading the story too one dimensionally. I don't understand how people can think that someone could walk out of a fight unscathed in a battle that essentially created an entire valley and another nation.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 15:20, September 23, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Not to mention we saw him pierced by a sword, and Hashirama barely survived with his "self-healing no jutsu" looked at it through Cerez's way, makes more sense (even if cruel, but this manga isn't about ponies) than him surviving, living happily after, manipulating from shadows for so long and then getting crippled--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:28, September 23, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Nobody is saying he got out of the fight unscathed, just that it was never really proven that he was just a shell of his former self. His injuries and all were severe yes, but with the way he could treat Obito's wounds and save him with Hashirama's cells, is it really reasonable to think that he couldn't do the same to himself? Not to mention, he was nowhere near where he was when he was on the Gedo when he last fought Hashirama and lost. He may have been wounded terribly, but he got stronger. No one is saying it was easy. It was probably very hard and took him a very long time. Think also about the fact that he had Hashirama's cells and that they, given Tsunade's testament to Tobi's possession of them, Madara might haven been able to extend his life by harvesting them and allowing him to train and learn how to use his Wood Release like he can. The reason he needed to go on the Gedo is unexplained. It may have been because of dwindled chakra reserves or some kind of genetic malfunction with Hashirama's DNA that was making him weaker rather than helping him maintain his training and preparation for future plans. To state something we don't know as a fact, such as being a shell of his former self, and present it as a fact is speculation and unnecessary. The Fox King([[User:The Fox King|tylerbryant547@gmail.com]] ([[User talk:The Fox King|talk]]) 15:38, September 23, 2012 (UTC))
 
 
:All of that however, is speculation based on things that was never seen. What we do know:
 
*Hashirama and Madara fought.
 
*Madara lost.
 
*Madara survived and became a shell of his former self.
 
*Madara used that battle to gather the Firsts' cells.
 
*Madara is attached to a giant statue covered in Zetsu's which were built with First cells.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 17:42, September 23, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Madara did not become a shell of his former self as far as fact goes. We don't know that he did. The Fox King([[User:The Fox King|tylerbryant547@gmail.com]] ([[User talk:The Fox King|talk]]) 19:35, September 23, 2012 (UTC))
 
 
But we work only with facts, we know these things:
 
* he got pierced by Hashirama's sword, and "died" not to mention he sure had many more wounds... how he survived is unknown now.
 
* became a shell of his former self
 
* gedo life support
 
There's no incident in between, so unless more information is provided, Hashi battle made him what he was in chapter 602
 
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:52, September 23, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Thats no fact. He didn't become a shell of his former self. Tobi said that, not him and it stands to reason that since he is weaker than Madara, which he factually admitted, then he say something like that to get others to believe what he said about being Madara was true. He himself has not stated that or in any way implied it. He was no shell of his former self factually because he only got stronger after losing at the Valley of the End, not weaker. Everything else you said was true, but that wasn't. Be realistic. The Fox King([[User:The Fox King|tylerbryant547@gmail.com]] ([[User talk:The Fox King|talk]]) 21:39, September 23, 2012 (UTC))
 
 
Be realistic? This is a damn manga, you know right? You are speculating too much, your "sense and logic" aren't above information provided... you can't simply arrange it the way you want. What we know is listed, the end.
 
EDIT: Itachi said the same about shell thing, also how is being connected to a flower in order to survive considered as getting stronger?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:21, September 23, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
He wasn't connected to the Gedo for all those years after losing and Itachi, just like Nagato, knew Tobi and believed that he was Madara and Tobi is weaker than Madara. Hes admitted that. The reason he, not Madara, would probably have said such a thing was so others, like Itachi, Nagato, and the five Kage, would believe that thats who he was and why he would resort to a plan like that. Onoki questioned that himself. In everything that has been seen of Madara himself, nothing has said or shown that he became a shell of his former self after he lost that last battle with Hashirama. Thats a fact. I'm not speculating, you are. In all that we saw of Madara's past when Tobi was telling Sasuke about everything that happened with Madara, he did not mention, imply, or even contemplate to himself that Madara was just a shell of his former self. The fact that he made that statement to the five Kage without us seeing any proof it was true opens a possibility that what he said was just a lie to make his story sound believable. He spent all those decades training with the Wood Release and mastered it so powerfully. He was also able to awaken the Rinnegan. Whenever he did so, it was after that battle and therefore, he got stronger period after it. The Fox King([[User:The Fox King|tylerbryant547@gmail.com]] ([[User talk:The Fox King|talk]]) 22:50, September 23, 2012 (UTC))
 
 
:But here is the thing: Where do you assume this? Everything Tobi and Itachi has said about Madara was correct, based on what we have '''seen'''. You are just assuming he walked out of that battle and got god mode somehow. That is not how we were told, and not how we've seen.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 23:07, September 23, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Correction, we have not seen that Madara was just a shell of his former self after losing that last battle and only most of what Tobi and Itachi said was shown to be true. Not everything. Saying he was just a shell of his former self after that battle when it was never shown that he was was just words. Nothing backing it up. The only thing we have seen about him losing to Hashirama is that he was severely wounded, which doesn't prove that was a shell of what he was before losing that battle, only that he lost and survived it. Neither Itachi nor Tobi's statements about that have been proven true. Thats a fact. The Fox King([[User:The Fox King|tylerbryant547@gmail.com]] ([[User talk:The Fox King|talk]]) 23:30, September 23, 2012 (UTC))
 
 
It doesn't really make sense we argue out this point. It is true that we only know bits and pieces that have yet to be glued together of what happened after the battle at the valley of the end and Madara finding Obito, but I would however be really shocked if that battle and Madara's state aren't '''directly''' related. Any way, as long as the information remains how it is (or at least how I last remember it being) for now, it's enough for me.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 23:52, September 23, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
My point exactly Cerez. It has so far no been shown that he was a shell of his former self after losing that battle or that he was on that Mazo from the time he lost till he died. Next chapter may change some or all of that., but as it stands right now, none of that is fact. The Fox King([[User:The Fox King|tylerbryant547@gmail.com]] ([[User talk:The Fox King|talk]]) 00:11, September 24, 2012 (UTC))
 
 
== "awakened Rinnegan before death" ==
 
 
I'm pretty sure he wasn't referring to him dying after the 3rd SWW, but before being "killed" by Hashirama, as he considered himself to be dead afterwards.
 
He gave his eyes to Nagato decades before, and had only a spare ordinary Sharingan by the time he met Obito. Not to mention he wouldn't have such mastery over it if it was by his old age. Should be reworded in my opinion--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:25, September 23, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Madara came out and stated that he awakened it shortly before his death. Doubt that mean't decades and until he says what he meant about leaving his real eyes with someone else, we can only speculate that subject. The Fox King([[User:The Fox King|tylerbryant547@gmail.com]] ([[User talk:The Fox King|talk]]) 15:51, September 23, 2012 (UTC))
 
 
It is impossible, at this point in time, to determine which "death" Madara was referring to. However, implications seem to be hinting it was the former...the one at the Valley of the End. There are two things supporting this, one of which is evidence: firstly, we have to consider the fact that Madara, having just been resurrected by Edo Tensei, would have had no idea how much his summoner knew with regards to his life. Thus, he would attempt to disclose the least amount of information possible. An example of this is found in chapter 561, where Madara asks Kabuto how much he knows: during the entirety of his explanation, he remains silent. It's obvious he isn't intent on revealing anything about his life and death. So why ''wouldn't'' he make a vague statement that can be interpreted in one of two ways, especially given the fact that Kabuto knows more than the average individual (his extra knowledge would actually be a detriment in this situation, as it only confuses the situation further)? To the rest of the world, Madara died at Hashirama's hand over 60 years ago. Why not continue to uphold that falsity? It wouldn't be in Madara's best interests to reveal conflicting information.
 
 
Secondly, Madara clearly says in chapter 602 that he left his real eyes to someone else. That "someone else" is obviously Nagato, and it is evidence against Madara's statement being a reference to his true death. I will explain why: at this point, Nagato having the Rinnegan is due to one of two reasons: either Madara transplanted his Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan into Nagato, whose Uzumaki blood caused the eyes to progress to their final stage, or Madara directly gave Nagato the Rinnegan, already having completed the last step with Hashirama's Senju DNA. Based off these two scenarios, it would be impossible for Madara to have awakened the Rinnegan (possibly ''again'') before his real death because he would have needed a new EMS to get to that final stage. What are the odds of that happening? Infinitesimally low. Not just because of the difficulty of the procedure, but because Madara was missing a right eye in this latest chapter.
 
 
Now, you may be asking how Kabuto managed to modify Madara back to his prime form, with enhancements such as the Rinnegan, that he gave away years before dying (Edo Tensei supposedly works by resurrecting the person as they were moments before death): the truth is, I have no idea. There's obviously something bigger going on here. But at this stage in the game, it's not unlikely to think that Madara was talking about his "death" at VoTE, especially given his words this chapter: "ghost of the Uchiha."
 
[[Special:Contributions/68.119.138.242|68.119.138.242]] ([[User talk:68.119.138.242|talk]]) 19:09, September 23, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Not to mention that would make 2 pairs of Rinnegan eyes, obviously, besides Sage's, there has been only one other pair--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:20, September 23, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Thats what I said as far as his death goes, however, it has yet to be seen what he mean't and we can't be sure he mean't Nagato until chapter 603 is out. Only then can we know that as a fact. Also, just because he gave away his eyes, doesn't mean he lost the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan dojutsu, or the Rinnegan if he had awakened before giving his eyes away. Its a kekkei genkai. Its in his blood. His genetics and works through his eyes, not just within the eyes themselves. He also said he couldn't awaken the full potential of his eyes without two, which the full potential to him would be everything he achieved. Think about that. The Fox King([[User:The Fox King|tylerbryant547@gmail.com]] ([[User talk:The Fox King|talk]]) 21:46, September 23, 2012 (UTC))
 
 
I don't see a reason to doubt that... these are facts:
 
* Madara and Nagato knew each other
 
* Tobi claimed that "I Madara" did give Nagato the Rinnegan
 
* Madara assumes Nagato revived him with Rinne Tensei no jutsu
 
* Madara confirms he gave his eyes to someone
 
 
The way it's worded now sounds like he produced 2 pairs of Rinnegan eyes in his lifetime, should be changed to: "Shortly before being presumed to have been killed by Hashirama in their final confrontation at a place later to be known as Valley of The End, Madara awakened his Rinnegan"--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:19, September 23, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Indeed it should should it be revealed to have been that way in the next chapter when we hopefully find out for sure what he mean't. The Fox king([[User:The Fox King|tylerbryant547@gmail.com]] ([[User talk:The Fox King|talk]]) 22:41, September 23, 2012 (UTC))
 
 
== Second Rikudou ==
 
 
I thought it to be clear that Madara is such, not Obito.
 
Everything Tobi/Obito did say under "I, Madara" has been under this guy's name and were his actions/deeds.
 
Nagato's Rinnegan couldn't have given by Obito, clearly.
 
Also Madara did awake Rinnegan, not Obito, thus the title belong to him--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 04:33, October 13, 2012 (UTC)
 
:I think we're simply waiting for something more clear-cut than the "Tobi said it as Madara" bid.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 11:47, October 13, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
It's obviously obvious... doubting Obito's "Madara" statements is paranoid at this point.
 
* Obito wasn't alive when Nagato got Rinnegan
 
* Kabuto compared Madara's power to be a fragment of that of So6p
 
* Madara did awake the Rinnegan, making him "another Sage"
 
* There's no reason for Obito to be 2nd Rikudou, eye/name/title thief suits him better
 
* Same goes for Madara being the Akatsuki's creator, my topic got ignored completely
 
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:04, October 13, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
I never said it was doubted, nor is anyone being paranoid. Just that the general consensus I got on this matter(s) is that we wait...--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 17:12, October 13, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
I think we've waited long enough, this latest chapter confirmed all the things tobi said he's done under Madara's name was done by Madara... no point in waiting any longer, we're not going to get much more than that.[[User:MangekyoSasuke|MangekyoSasuke]] ([[User talk:MangekyoSasuke|talk]]) 04:41, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Izanagi and Yin-Yang Release. ==
 
 
As we saw as of chapter 606, it was indeed Madara who tutored Obito into all those powerful dojutsu such as Izanagi...now in regards to the Yin-Yang style, i'm in the wind in as to his application of it...namely the creation of Black Zetsu and his explanation to his creation of the chakra rods as an physical aplication of his ''will''. Now my question is...should be named as an Izanagi user and should his Yin-Yang use be stated? [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 12:04, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
:Another detail is the fact that Madara reffered to the various White Zetsu's as being created by the Yin-Yang powers...soo, any opinions? [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 12:53, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
He clearly could/can use Izanagi and taught Obito the technique--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:06, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:Or he can use it in principle and taught it to Obito, in principle? Information about him using Yin Yang Release has been added to his article.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 16:08, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
He taught him Uchiha Kinjutsu, not to mention don't tell me Obito found out about Izanagi himself--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:13, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
:By principle to teach a technique in an efficient manner as seen with Obito, the teacher (Madara) should have first hand experience in using said technique. You can't teach a complex technique like that and not have mastered said technique. Besides Madara is known for his extensive knowledge and use of these complex techniques. Now what about his creation of Black Zetsu? Does that qualify as Yin-Yang as well? [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 16:27, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
The fact that him is listed as a Izanagi user is because of his genjutsu or because he says that he will teach Obito about the clan's kinjutsu? [[User:MaskedManMadara|MaskedManMadara]] ([[User talk:MaskedManMadara|talk]]) 18:42, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
:The second since there are only two Uchiha Kinjutsu and one was only created to neutralize the other and is pretty much useless on it's own and Obito only used Izanagi as off now [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 18:59, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Now, so that people won't say i got most of this stuff out of thin air, [[Talk:Dream World|here]]'s the translation which confirms that the Yin-Yang was also used to create the Zetsu clones. And since Madara is pretty much the only user at the time the Zetsu clones were first created that pretty much is worth a mention. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 19:42, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
What i don't get is, did he really have yin-yang thanks to dna or was it because of the [[sharingan]]?--[[User:Aeonophic|Aeonophic]] ([[User talk:Aeonophic|talk]]) 15:59, October 21, 2012 (UTC)Aeonophic
 
 
One doesn't need Sharingan to have either. Second Mizukage used Yin Release, Yin and Yang are the source of several non-elemental ninjutsu. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 16:14, October 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
If so, then why does [[Obito Uchiha]] have [[earth]] release and [[water]] release, but also has [[yin-yang release]]?--[[User:Aeonophic|Aeonophic]] ([[User talk:Aeonophic|talk]]) 19:09, October 21, 2012 (UTC)Aeonophic
 
 
* Because he used an Earth Release technique and Wood one as well, thus should be able to use Water in addition
 
* Used Izanagi and Madara taught him presumably others
 
* I don't get what ur asking... --[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:14, October 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Adding a "Legacy" section ==
 
 
What do you think, guys? Perhaps we should add a "Legacy" section for Madara, for example because he's technically deceased and because he turned out to be the direct cause of everything that's going on now? [[User:Xfing|Xfing]] ([[User talk:Xfing|talk]]) 23:52, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:Go ahead. He is dead, and if they influence crap after death then boom, section.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 00:02, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== New Technique ==
 
 
As it seen in the latest chapter, Madara used Yin-Yang Release to create Black Zetsu by transfering part of his will into a Zetsu clone. Now i'm wondering if by what was shown, warrants the creation of a jutsu article based on what shown and stated. Any opinions/ideas? [[Special:Contributions/2.80.100.41|2.80.100.41]] ([[User talk:2.80.100.41|talk]]) 20:53, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
"creation of all things" even if speculative, makes sense... I think that's also exactly how the Meteorites were created and why Kabuto compared Madara to So6p during that instance--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:11, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
It's a stretch at best to be creation of all things...but i do believe it to be a technique in it's own right. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 21:44, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
 
:Any other opinions for this topic? [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 18:29, October 24, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
The best bet is what I put forward, but this isn't a place where bets are taken as fact, thus we will have to wait. Pointless topic, since how would you call that... Zetsu creation technique?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:19, October 24, 2012 (UTC)
 
:That's not the one, i'm talking about the Yin-Yang technique Madara used to create the ''Black'' Zetsu by transfering a portion of his will onto a Zetsu clone...given we had a description, an image of how it was used and a user, it could warrant a creation...maybe '''Will Transfer Technique''', since it was shown in translation that Black Zetsu was basically a low grade replica of Madara due to being infused with his '''will''' or conscience.[[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 00:24, October 25, 2012 (UTC)
 
::Now with that i can agree...is there any other thoughts on this topic?[[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 15:43, October 29, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Where exactly was it said that Black Zetsu was created using Yin-Yang Release? Because I only heard that the clones of White Zetsu were created using such- even then Madara had nothing to do with that- the statue and the living clone did all that. Yes he did implant his will into White Zetsu and the chakra receiver, but why exactly does a technique article need to be created for it? It's just one more place that speculation as to what his "will" is to be presented in a more "visible" fashion. Mentioning that he did it in his general abilities section should suffice, at least for now in my opinion.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 15:57, October 29, 2012 (UTC)
 
:Madara said it himself, whem he said he was teaching Obito Yin-Yang Techniques, plus the Yin-Yang as a whole has very little information to it, plus we have a (small granted) description that by infusing his will onto Zetsu to create it's Black side, he created a low grade replica of himself...given how Yin-Yang as whole appears to revolve around the manipulation of reality and creation...and the will part...to me i see it as a portion of his psyche/soul/chakra...since he said that the other portion in the chakra receiver for his revival, i'm imagining that is the reason for it. Either way i believe that what was used to create Black Zetsu is a Yin-Yang technique in it own right since it envolves the transformation of imagination (Madara's will) into a physical thing (The Black Zetsu).
 
Anyone care to join in? [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 14:59, December 31, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
I don't think anyone disagrees with it being a yin-yang release, but there's no need to create an article for that... closest thing to that would be "creation of all things" and that's speculative--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 02:16, January 1, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
== Respect Shown ==
 
 
Is it worthy saying that Madara has shown equal respect for Naruto just as for Hashirama ? --[[Special:Contributions/213.93.224.246|213.93.224.246]] ([[User talk:213.93.224.246|talk]]) 16:14, October 24, 2012 (UTC)
 
----
 
this is me asking, (went online unintentionally) --[[User:Naruto6paths|Naruto6paths]] ([[User talk:Naruto6paths|talk]]) 16:17, October 24, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
And you concluded as such due to what..?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:15, October 24, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
After witnessing naruto countering his wood release: nativity of a world of trees and looking for the original naruto (when he used his shadow clones) just only to negotiate "seemingly" this can apply to his respect, instead of just talking to his shadow clones. --[[User:Naruto6paths|Naruto6paths]] ([[User talk:Naruto6paths|talk]]) 19:31, October 30, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Did he really try to convince Naruto? ==
 
 
While reading the chapter it is impossible to ascertain whether Naruto's "Like hell that will work! I'm the son of th 4th Hokage!" was a response to Madara's talking or his attacks. We have no way to say, so I suggest all the parts saying Madara was trying to convince Naruto that the Eye of the Moon is for the good, should be removed. [[User:Xfing|Xfing]] ([[User talk:Xfing|talk]]) 10:49, November 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
What Madara says in return more strongly implies that he was trying to convince Naruto of his plan being for the good of humanity. Besides, on side points, Madara has shown genuine belief that his plan is for the greater good of humanity. The Fox King([[User:The Fox King|tylerbryant547@gmail.com]] ([[User talk:The Fox King|talk]]) 12:45, November 12, 2012 (UTC))
 
 
== Shadow Clone/Wood Clone ==
 
 
Is it noteworthy that Madara states he was the only one to be able to see through wood clones but he can't distinguish Naruto from his shadow clones (Considering he is alway surprised when he hits one of them)? --[[Special:Contributions/178.26.204.139|178.26.204.139]] ([[User talk:178.26.204.139|talk]]) 15:16, December 1, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
This is weird, as at first he could tell which is Naruto and a clone...--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:49, December 1, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Ah, forgot that then--[[Special:Contributions/178.26.204.139|178.26.204.139]] ([[User talk:178.26.204.139|talk]]) 03:13, December 3, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Edo Tensei ==
 
 
Should madara's knowledge of Edo Tensei be listed under his intelligence section. He knows about its origins and how to break the contract.--[[User:Trogdor247|Trogdor247]] ([[User talk:Trogdor247|talk]]) 08:42, January 7, 2013 (UTC)
 
:There is nothing in particular that speaks to his intelligence there. The technique was created during his era in a village he lived in. He either stole the information or simply knew about it, it isn't exactly a hijutsu.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 08:52, January 7, 2013 (UTC)
 
 
That's knowledge not intelligence--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 08:55, January 7, 2013 (UTC)
 

Latest revision as of 12:29, September 15, 2014

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Hashirama Face Implant Edit

Like, it's gone.--KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 17:44, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

When Kaguya left his body, it probably reverted back to his base form. Any alien entities, no matter how well ingrained, probably left with her. I'm gonna assume the Rinnegan is gone too. --Atrix471 (talk) 18:32, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
Likely an oversight--Elveonora (talk) 19:09, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
I'd wait for the next chapter. If Madara reappeared, it means he has still some role to play.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna JOA20 19:18, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
He is dead, without the slightest doubt. Seriously, I'm Madara's fan too, but why some people can't get over his death? Yes, it was half-assed, but it happened.--Elveonora (talk) 19:22, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
@Elveo, Multiple screenshots were shown without the Hashi face implant. Why think it's an oversight? -- KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 19:25, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
@Elveo, I'm not saying Madara isn't dead, just that he, either his body or soul, has some role to play, otherwise Kishi wouldn't have bothered to make the Kages teleport his body back to Earth as well.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna JOA20 19:26, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
Let's be honest, Hashirama just wanted to be with his bestie one last time... --Atrix471 (talk) 19:29, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Dead? Edit

How can we be absolutely sure Madara's dead? He could just be unconscious. --Mandon (talk) 19:32, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

We aren't, people just like to make assumptions. --Atrix471 (talk) 19:33, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, we are. When a Tailed Beast gets extracted, the jinchuuriki dies. In addition, he was already dead the moment Kaguya took over--Elveonora (talk) 19:36, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
Generally speaking, when someone is stabbed and their body is used as a medium for the revival of another, they are dead. Considering that Madara's body was used as a medium to revive Kaguya, I would be very surprised if he's still alive. For now, Presumed Deceased is staying, unless a new chapter states he isn't. --SuperSajuuk Talk Page | My Image Uploads | Tabber Code | Channel 19:37, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
Not only Kaguya took over which killed him, but also it is the manga's rule that extraction of a Tailed Beast kills the jinchuuriki.--Elveonora (talk) 19:40, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
Obito got impaled through the chest and later forced to use a jutsu that guarantees death and he still lived through it. Besides, Madara's wounds are all gone now.. it's very possible that he's currently alive and will get a proper death scene in the next chapter. --Mandon (talk) 19:44, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
We don't do "I think it's possible" the difference is that Obito had Black Zetsu, Gedo Mazo and Naruto's Jesus hand to keep him alive.--Elveonora (talk) 19:47, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
Please, we all know Kishi physically cannot leave a villain die without being redeemed in some way. If Madara dies, how will TNJ work? --Atrix471 (talk) 19:49, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
All I'm saying is we can and should wait until there's absolutely no doubt he's dead. That's why we listed him as "Presumed Deceased" even after his existence was seemingly wiped out with Kaguya's revival. You've been told this time and time again Elv but for the millionth time, stop jumping to conclusions and editing articles with conjecture. Remember a few years ago when you opted for us to wait a week when Tobi was unmasked, even though all the evidence pointed to him being Obito? I hate it when people hold others to a standard they can't adhere to.. so like I said, let's just wait. --Mandon (talk) 19:52, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
I think people are forgetting that the Tailed Beast Extraction killing the user rule doesn't apply too Jinchuriki's of the Shinju it only leaves them paralyzed.--Thdyingbreed (talk) 22:06, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
If he really is dead, how can he be summoned? You are too quick to assume that Madara is dead, just like when you turned out to be wrong about Obito. Also, it was never confirmed that he died when Kaguya took over. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 23:15, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
@Thdying, that's not what was stated. The reason Hagoromo survived was because he extracted only the chakra while leaving the body of the Ten-Tails inside of him, which kept him alive but resulted in paralysis.
@Patsoumas, Pains are corpses, they can be summoned. Kunai and Shuriken are inanimate, they can be summoned, your point?--Elveonora (talk) 09:43, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
Pain's corpses are reanimated through the power of the Rinnengan, and the Kunai & Shuriken are summoned through scrolls, not Summoning Technique. When a person dies, his chakra disappears, so how would Madara be summoned if he is dead? And also, I don't think that it is stated that the Jinchuriki dies immediately after the Bijuu is extracted. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 10:09, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
The only point that matters is that Madara isn't definitively confirmed to be deceased, therefore we can't call him deceased. --Mandon (talk) 18:31, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
Except he is. Do I need to slap the chapter and page onto your face where Zetsu says how it's a rule that when a Tailed Beast is extracted, the jinchuuriki dies? Seriously, I like Madara too, but this fanboy bias is getting out of control. How you feel towards a certain character shouldn't affect what you want to go or don't want to go into his/her article.--Elveonora (talk) 18:35, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
Didn't seem to kill Killer B all that much. He's alive until he we know he's dead, though death is likely. "Presumed Deceased".--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō (talk) 18:56, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
You beat me, well done, okay then. (I wonder how B survived though, the tentacle things makes me go crazy)--Elveonora (talk) 19:00, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
Need I remind you Elv that Madara still had the gedo statue inside of him [or Kaguya] when the TB's were extracted? That rule doesn't apply here. Madara was never explicitly confirmed to be dead, therefore we wait. --Mandon (talk) 19:38, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
He didn't/doesn't have the "statue"--Elveonora (talk) 19:48, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
He did when the Tailed Beasts were extracted, thus removing the certainty of death. --Mandon (talk) 20:55, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
Yin-Kurama stated that Ten-Tails' jinchūriki survive the tailed beasts' extraction only if they have the Demonic Statue in their body because of its strong life force – meaning, if the Statue is extracted as well, the jinchūriki's case is no different from any other tailed beast's jinchūriki.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna JOA20 21:06, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
I think you both need to re-read the chapter because you don't seem to remember the order of events. It wasn't Statue > Tailed beasts. It was Tailed Beasts > Statue, meaning the tailed beasts were extracted from Kaguya/Madara while the statue was still inside them and then the statue/Kaguya spat out Madara, meaning the effects of the statue are still in place. --Mandon (talk) 00:43, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
There are no lasting effects. The "statue" keeps them alive only for as long as it's inside, not once it's extracted as well.--Elveonora (talk) 12:39, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
If the jinchuriki dies immediately after the Biju/Gedo Mazo is removed, why was Obito still alive after Black Zetsu left his body? He had the Gedo Mazo & the 9 Biju extracted from his body AND he had used the Rinne Tensei. I'm sure Madara will eventually die after the extraction, but nothing says that he is already dead. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 15:33, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
And as we all said, Madara was still alive. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 11:39, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
To say 2 sentences, thus was dead.--Elveonora (talk) 11:40, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
He was still alive, and died after that. It's different being dead & close to death. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 12:36, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
Now he's very obviously dead, can we stop this discussion and update the infobox? --SuperSajuuk Talk Page | My Image Uploads | Tabber Code | Channel 12:39, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
Not saying he isn't dead now, I'm saying that he wasn't dead in the previous chapter, as some were hurried to assume. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 12:45, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

There's no need to pick at people with hindsight. Let it simply be a lesson to people not to jump the gun when they think somebody's dead. Nobody was denying he'd probably die in the next chapter anyways. --Mandon (talk) 17:15, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

Storm Release is not his kekkei genkai Edit

He gained it by becoming the Juubie's jinchuriki, just like Rosh and Naruto gained Lava Release from Son, its not a kekkei genkai it's a tailed beast skill.--Hunter4522 (talk) 23:26, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

We don't know for sure either way, you can't be so sure.--Elveonora (talk) 09:43, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
The ones that posses all bijuu chakras can create the truth seeking ball and have all the chakra natures and kekkei genkai--Hunter4522 (talk) 15:11, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
Actually, no such thing was stated in official translation about all kekkei genkai. Fire, Wind, Earth, Lightning, Wood, Yin, Yang were attributed to Kaguya, with Wood possibly being an error, supposed to be Water instead.--Elveonora (talk) 18:30, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
So how is Wood Release a kekkei genkai? Is it because the Uchiha and Senju are both descended from the Sage of the Six Paths? I thought Wood Release was only a Senju kekkei genkai...Banan14kab

Wind release Edit

I thought Madara's wind release was anime only so why is that caption gone?--Rinneganmaster (talk) 20:07, August 31, 2014 (UTC)

Because he used Storm Release, which is made up of Wind and Water. • Seelentau 愛 20:11, August 31, 2014 (UTC)
That would be Ice... Lightning and Water you mean. You should go to bed :P--Elveonora (talk) 20:12, August 31, 2014 (UTC)
...hmph. • Seelentau 愛 20:12, August 31, 2014 (UTC)

Exactly, I believe we should put anime only.--Rinneganmaster (talk) 23:00, August 31, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, why was the anime only tag removed?--WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task (Talk) (Contribs) 00:37, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Hey shouldn't the Storm Release be listed in Madara's kekkei genkai, after all it is an advance chakra nature and a bloodline trait. I mean I know Madara only acessed it through like the six paths senjutsu but still it should be added its a form of kekkei genkai. i'm not saying that we should list his storm release jutsu as a kekkei genkai, but just simply put it in his infobox. --Tuxedo12 (talk) 04:38, September 3, 2014 (UTC)

We don't know how he could use it. Stating it was because of jinchuuriki status is no more speculative than stating it was because of kkg, because at the end of the day, we don't know--Elveonora (talk) 08:24, September 3, 2014

(UTC)

Did Kaguya say the Truthseeking ball is made of all elements? If that's true than Madara's a wind release user.--Rinneganmaster (talk) 21:13, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

There's a still an argument going if the description was about her own alone or in general--Elveonora (talk) 21:15, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

Loss of Rinnegan Edit

Since when, I wonder, does a loss of Hashirama's face mean Madara has lost his Rinnegan, when he didn't have that when he awoke those eyes? Thats not confirmed anywhere. Nor is it conformed that a loss of hashirama's cells at all would mean he lost the Rinnegan. Its a kekkei genkai and was in his blood from the time he awakened it. (The Fox King (talk) 21:59, September 4, 2014 (UTC))

The manga made it quite clear, Madara lost all his enhancements before death. If he still had Hashirama's cells, they would have helped him survive like they did with Obito. If he still had his Rinnegan, Mdara's eyes would have still shown it. The Rinnegan was only awoken by a combination of Indra and Asura's chakra, and Madara lost Asura's chakra thus his eyes reverted back to the state they were before. Its really quite simple. --SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 22:14, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
Madara is able to switched between Rinnegan and other dojutsu at will, and may just have been too weak to keep it active at death. Again, we don't know he lost all of hashirama's cells, just the face, which wasn't there at the start. Plus Rinnegan isn't an enhancement for Madara, its naturally his. --The Fox King (talk) 22:19, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
@Saiyaman No, that really is quite stupid. Madara's eyes did exactly what Itachi's did when he died and turned back into their normal form. Madara awakened the Rinnegan. It doesn't just disappear. When they run out of chakra, their eyes go back to normal, because the eyes require chakra to remain active. So, before you try again, SuperSaiyaMan, you are not to add anything about Madara losing the Rinnegan because he didn't. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 22:21, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
Uh, we see the Sharingan still in his eyes meaning that comparison doesn't make sense, Ten-Tailed Fox. The tomoe were still there. And Hagoromo made it clear how a Rinnegan is awoken: Indra and Asura's chakra mixes together, bringing out Hagoromo's. If Madara still possessed Hashirama's cells, why did he die so quickly compared to Obito? --SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 22:24, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
Obito had things like the Gedo Statue, Black Zetsu, a higher concentration of Hashirama's cells, and Naruto's "Jesus" hand keeping him alive all that time at different points. Thats why. Madara had, at the end from the looks of it, at best just the cells he stuck in his chest originally, which again we don't know he lost and none of those other things. --The Fox King (talk) 22:27, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
Um, @SuperSaiyaMan, where are the tomoe? I see no Sharingan in his eyes at all. They just look blank. --WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 22:30, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
Page 9, bottom right panel. You see the Tomoe in the edges. Though if Ten Tailed Fox doesn't want it to be put down, okay. Maybe in the next chapters we'll get some confirmation since no one in their right mind would want those Rinnegan to stay around with Orochimaru being there. --SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 22:34, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
I've already seen the page, I know what I said when I typed in "They just look blank." Those aren't tomoe. It looks like he used Izanagi twice or something. --WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 22:39, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
If the Rinnengan disappears when Indra's & Asura's chakra are not combined, how could Nagato, who only has Indra's through the eyes, keep the Rinnengan active? --Patsoumas1995 (talk) 23:21, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
I think its due to being a Uzumaki and Senju descendant he was able to maintain the implanted Rinnegan, given both clans are descended from Asura. --SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 00:40, September 5, 2014 (UTC)
I suppose that's why he was called 3rd Six Paths despite it having been just an implant --Elveonora (talk) 10:12, September 5, 2014 (UTC)

Dead 3 times Edit

Madara has never died 3 times during the entire series, but 2. He died the first time when he was an old man, he got revived during the war by Obito's Rinne Tensei and died for his second and last time when Kaguya was defeated and Madara had the Jubi extracted from his body. I red over there that some users are taking madara's status when Kaguya took over his body as dead, which is not right. He just was unconscious, deeply inside Kaguya. And the irrefutable fact that he had never died after this event, despite some characters of the series thinking the opposite (Tobirama's attempt to use Edo Tensei), is clearly given to us 2 chapters ago; Kaguya defeated, and Madara ALIVE sharing his last moments with Hashirama. Please, we have to begin to use common sense when we create discussion articles. Have that trivia note about his deaths erased, it's not true. --KILLERBEE479 (talk) 19:07, September 10, 2014 (UTC)

The first time he died at Hashirama's hands and revived himself through Izanagi. The Second as an old man. The Third time was after extracting the Tailed Beasts.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 19:11, September 10, 2014 (UTC)

Fire Release Edit

is it safe to assume that fire is his affinity, and maybe add it to the infobox...based on the fact that uchiha members have affinity for & proficiency with it...also for the most part of the series he used this nature more over the others... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 11:50, September 15, 2014 (UTC)

No assumptions. For example according to the anime, Sasuke's affinity is Lightning. And yeah, I know manga > anime, but we can't ignore the anime. But just in case the anime is correct in Lightning being Sasuke's affinity, then it may be possible for someone to have 2 affinities. In fact, according to the anime, advanced nature kekkei genkai = having affinity for 2 natures thus being capable to merge them. They pulled this outta their arses, because Kishi said no such thing, but again, in case they are right, then Sasuke's affinities may be both Fire and Lightning and taking the kekkei genkai part into consideration, it would explain Blaze Release :D :D :D--Elveonora (talk) 11:56, September 15, 2014 (UTC)
There can't be two affinities, because that would not be what an affinity is. • Seelentau 愛 11:59, September 15, 2014 (UTC)
Tell that to Studio Pierrot :P In fact, there may be 3 (Kekkei Tota) according to them. Now I mention it, I don't think we have documented this anywhere, we simply ignored it I guess--Elveonora (talk) 12:03, September 15, 2014 (UTC)

well if someone has affinity for 2 natures or more then it's not necessary to put it for both natures at all...but if someone like naruto or kakashi has an affinity for one nature & uses that one nature more that other natures as in kakashi's case then it's right to put affinity for that nature in the infobox...I'm suggesting the same for madara's fire...and maybe obito too now that I think about it...since he too hade fire as his original nature and used it more that other natures...and possibly any other character with these conditions...like...idk temari for example...or kitsuchi...or earth for onoki...hope I've made my point clear... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 12:06, September 15, 2014 (UTC)

Frequency of nature's usage isn't necessarily a determinant of an affinity.--Elveonora (talk) 12:08, September 15, 2014 (UTC)

then what is... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 12:11, September 15, 2014 (UTC)

Affinity means natural talent towards a certain nature... a genetic predisposition if you will.--Elveonora (talk) 12:14, September 15, 2014 (UTC)

doesn't madara have that natural talent & genetic predisposition towards fire?...based on what V've seen from him in the manga... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 12:21, September 15, 2014 (UTC)

Likely, but we weren't told Fire is his affinity, so we can't assume so--Elveonora (talk) 12:23, September 15, 2014 (UTC)

sooo...V R putting the term affinity for only 2 characters in the entire series in this wiki & not for other characters with similar conditions?...ok --DARK ZER06 (talk) 12:26, September 15, 2014 (UTC)

Because we were told what those characters' affinities are.--Elveonora (talk) 12:29, September 15, 2014 (UTC)

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