|This page is an archive. Please do not edit this archive, instead try editing the page this archive originated from.|
Does anyone know where the first mention of Madara is in the series (chapter wise)? I'm assuming it's during Naruto and Sasuke's fight at the end of Part 1, but I thought I'd ask. Skitts (talk) 18:11, January 5, 2012 (UTC)
- I think the first time was in chapter 309. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 18:48, January 5, 2012 (UTC)
Second of the Six Paths is Madara's Moniker not Tobi's as Madara actually awakened the Rinnegan, Tobi did not. Tobi even admits he is not Madara anymore whne he said his old name was Tobi. So put that Moniker on Madara's page too. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 14:12, January 11, 2012 (UTC)
- I swore I brought this up already. Any way, Tobi called himself that regardless so I don't think it can be changed. Even though I believe that Madara is also the "Second Six Paths", he has never been called that personally. Besides it would seem that they both have the Rinnegan so it's a bit confusing.--Cerez365™ 14:22, January 11, 2012 (UTC)
-____- its not confusing, Tobi stole the Rinnegan from the left eye of Nagato's corpse. Madara awakened his shortly before death, even if it was just because he had Hashirama's DNA, he still awakened it, making him the true Second of the Six Paths. Tobi was just using Madara's existence as his own, for his own goals and purposes, he admitted his name was actually Tobi when he told Naruto to call him by his old name, Tobi, if he wanted. 220.127.116.11 (talk) 03:27, January 13, 2012 (UTC)
That dosent prove that Tobi isnt Madara. He only gives Naruto the option of calling him either Tobi or Madara because it didnt matter what he was called as he only wanted to accomplish his mission. --Beautyandbrains (talk) 09:49, March 16, 2012 (UTC)
- That's still seen as an assumption. We can't give him the moniker until it's used in reference to Madara Uchiha directly. Giving him that moniker is like saying if Tobi had called himself the "Space-Time Migrating God of Shinobi" while "pretending" to be Madara then we should call Madara that.--Cerez365™ 03:37, January 13, 2012 (UTC)
Is not everything Tobi said about himself as Madara, actions and stuff of real Madara ? Like ... Tobi: "I fought Hashirama" real meaning: "Madara fought Hashirama" --Elveonora (talk) 13:10, January 13, 2012 (UTC)
- I wouldn't know if everything he said about himself while "pretending" to be Madara is true
since I'm a Hyūga and not Tobi's best friend. Just because Madara fought Hashirama, does that mean that Tobi didn't or couldn't have as well? I always say people are taking too hard a line on this Tobi/Madara thing before their story is revealed. Any way, like I said, though it's logical that Madara may be the Second Six Paths, unless it's attributed directly to Madara Uchiha.--Cerez365™ 14:02, January 13, 2012 (UTC)
But it can also be possible that Nagato awakened his own Rinnegan as I dont see how Madara/Tobi could have given it to Nagato or even if he did why would he? And Tobi didnt awaken his Rinnegan he stole it from Nagato's corpse. Madara awakened his so the he could have been the Sage of the Six Paths before Nagato.--Beautyandbrains (talk) 09:49, March 16, 2012 (UTC)
- Bumping this as the page is being vandalised again. --speysider (talk) 21:38, February 4, 2012 (UTC)
Doesn't Madara's power befit an S-rank classification? It says on S-rank's article it is also classification given to extremely powerful missing-nin. Shouldn't S-rank be included in Madara's infobox? The Fox King(email@example.com (talk) 02:43, January 16, 2012 (UTC))
- They're going based on Databook entries I believe, not on their own assumptions of power.--☯ Talk ☯ 02:45, January 16, 2012 (UTC)
This is a common misconception. If you read the article on S-rank you wouldn't ask that. A shinobi's power is not gauged using those ranks, techniques are. Outside of that S-rank is used for missing-nin that have been classified as such in a Bingo Book or through the manga/[databook] like the Akatsuki I believe.--Cerez365™ 02:53, January 16, 2012 (UTC)
Video game debut
The infobox says his debut was in Storm 2, but I really don't remember him being anywhere in there. Goofy Tobi was in it, and his awakening was serious Tobi with sharingan and all; maybe it's a remnant from the days when Tobi was Madara on here. Anyway, long haired, mangekyo-wielding, armoured Madara wasn't in Storm 2 as far as I recall.--Ferlize (talk) 21:09, January 16, 2012 (UTC)
Madara's power and mastery of Fire Release.
Madara Uchiha has demonstrated in use what has so far been the largest and strongest Fire Release technique in Uchiha clan, so would noting him as the most proficient in the clan really be inappropriate? The Fox King(firstname.lastname@example.org (talk) 23:50, January 16, 2012 (UTC))
But we don't know that. We've only been shown a few Uchiha, and each has used no more than two Fire Release techniques so we don't know. Anyway, his mastery over Fire Release is duly noted and I don't see much point in putting something in like that which isn't really known. Skitts (talk) 00:14, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
I meant to say it is the largest known technique in the Uchiha clan. And as far as we have seen, it is the most sizeable and powerful. Would it really hurt to note he is the most proficient in the clan that is known until we see otherwise? The Fox King(email@example.com (talk) 00:34, January 17, 2012 (UTC))
True, but nobody but Madara has been shown to know his technique, so until someone else in Uchiha clan or someone outside it does show they have it, its strickly Uchiha affiliated. As far as any Fire Release technique known to be used by the Uchiha goes, Madara's is the most powerful and dangerous. Would it hurt to acknowledge he is the most proficient known Fire Release user in the Uchiha clan until we know otherwise? It took four Water Encampment wall technique users combined to extinguish Madara's attack after all. The Fox King(firstname.lastname@example.org (talk) 02:13, January 17, 2012 (UTC))
What about Amaterasu, the strongest Fire Release technique? :P akz! 02:45, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
Not because a person is the only one to use a technique means it's affiliated with them or their clan. Especially then it's something like simple nature manipulation. As far as any fire technique... they've only been linked to the Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique and from all indications they were/all are proficient with Fire Release. In the same manner that you argue that he's the greatest I could say no one has used a more powerful Great Fireball than Obito or created as large a one as Fugaku. It's an unnecessary assumption with no evidence and we're supposed to be impartial. Also, as far as the most powerful fire release technique affiliated with the Uchiha, it's Amaterasu and Madara hasn't even used that.--Cerez365™ 02:46, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
I didn't mean period, I mean't just standard ninjutsu, not techniques only Mangekyo users can have. In that way, anyone with a Mangekyo can equal him. In terms of nature transformation, nobody, Uchiha or otherwise, has used a Fire Release technique as strong as his. And I said others may have it, but that Madara is the only one who has been seen using his technique, so we can't just assume there are others who can, we must see them to confirm it. Who else in the Uchiha clan uses a Fire Release technique as strong as Madara's? The Fox King(email@example.com (talk) 03:28, January 17, 2012 (UTC))
Considering we've seen him use two Fire Release techniques (one of which was common) you're statement is premature and hyping him up. For starters, part of the reason that his Fire Release: Great Fire Majestic Annihilation required several attacks to neutralize it was because of its "huge reach". Also, you're statement is incorrect as Kakuzu would be considered the "greatest Fire Release user" because of the far greater reach of his Fire Release: Intelligent Hard Work if we went by your logic. Here's what I'm basically thinking you're trying to say: Because Madara used a strong Fire Release technique that required several ninja to counter primarily because of its reach that he's the greatest user of that nature in his clan and elsewhere. This=/=logic. Skitts (talk) 03:47, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
Leave Kakuzu out of this. He is irrelevant. I was talking about Madara being the best in his clan all this time, not the best in the series. And also the power of Madara's technique is intense since absolutely all the water those four used was evaporated in putting it out. I'm asking that since nobody else in the Uchiha clan has been shown to use that aatack, and since the attack is as intense as it is, would it be inappropriate to say Madara is the most proficient Fire Release user in the UCHIHA CLAN, not in the whole series, until someone else in the clan is shown to use Fire Release: Great Fire Majestic Annihilation. Fugaku's Great Fireball technique was not as big as Madara's Majestic Annihilation, so all in all Fugaku was not as proficient as Madara from what has been seen of him. Nobody in the clan has been due to the lesser scales of the techniques the few we've seen were able to do. The Fox King(firstname.lastname@example.org (talk) 13:46, January 17, 2012 (UTC))
"In terms of nature transformation, nobody, Uchiha or otherwise, has used a Fire Release technique as strong as his." That's why I brought up Kakuzu. And again, the fact that we've seen the Uchiha affiliated with one Fire Release technique makes this premature. First of all, this is your opinion based off a single attack. Secondly, we don't state things like this unless they were confirmed in the series. For example, if we went by the logic you're using, we'd say that Kisame is the greatest Water manipulator in the series because of the scale of his Water Release: Great Exploding Water Colliding Wave, despite the fact that Tobirama was already stated to be it. Skitts (talk) 15:26, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
I didn't use the right words before, but what I was thinking was that he was the greatest of the Uchiha. Of all the Uchiha clan, Madara is known as the strongest. Given we know Tobi is a liar, Madara is the strongest. I didn't mean to not correct myself. No Uchiha clan member has used a Fire Release technique as strong or huge as Madara. Other people may have Majestic Fire Annihilation, but until its shown, we can only say Madara does for a fact. We can't go by what we don't see. And I said before that all the water in the Water Encampment wall techniques used to counter Madara were evaporated and that every Uchiha we've seen use a fire Release technique was not as proficient as Madara. Would it hurt to note him as the most proficient Fire Release user in the Uchiha clan until other members are shown to be even more. Madara is the strongest Uchiha afterall. He probably didn't become known as that just for his mastery of genetic inheritance. The Fox King(email@example.com (talk) 15:56, January 17, 2012 (UTC))
Like I said in my last post, as far as I know, we don't list things to the effect of "(Insert ninja here) is the greatest at (some skill)" unless it was directly stated somewhere. Skitts (talk) 16:02, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
Yes, but Tobirama was stated to be the best in the whole series and was because of his abilities. I'm not saying Madara's the best in the whole series at the Fire Release, just the best within the Uchiha clan. Kakuzu would be the best series wise. And Madara has been stated to be the best within the Uchiha clan because he is called the strongest Uchiha. I really don't think he would have been called that for just mastery over genetic inheritance. He is probably the best at everything the Uchiha do. Because Madara is called the strongest Uchiha, would it hurt to note him as the most proficient at the Fire Release among the Uchiha since his technique has not been shown to be held by anyone in the clan but him? The Fox King(firstname.lastname@example.org (talk) 16:34, January 17, 2012 (UTC))
Hiruzen was old and his chakra reserves were not what they were in his prime. In his prime, Hiruzen was the strongest of the five Kage. If he had been in his prime when Orochimaru made his attempt on the Leaf, he probably would have been much more formidable against Hashirama and Tobirama. Madara on the other hand still looks like he did in his prime and didn't seem to age after his battle with Hashirama. Maybe because of having his cells like Tobi. And Madara is even more powerful now than he was before his battle with Hashirama, and he is known as the strongest Uchiha. Since we can't assume there are techniques out there stronger than Majestic Annihilation because they haven't been seen or confirmed through speech, would it hurt to note Madara as the most proficient Uchiha clan member at the Fire Release? The Fox King(email@example.com (talk) 17:15, January 17, 2012 (UTC))
You misunderstood my point in bringing up Hiruzen. I was saying that even though he was the strongest of the Hokage, previous Hokage were better than him in some ways. Tobirama with Water Release, for example. Skitts (talk) 17:28, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
You have a point. But it should be noted that Hiruzen wasn't even shown to use Water Release. So yes, Tobirama is better than him at it. If Hiruzen had used it, who knows what it would have been like? And I acknowledge Kakuzu was better than Madara at Fire Release. However, of all the Fire Release techniques the Uchiha clan have been shown or confirmed to have used, Madara's is the strongest. Because Madara is the strongest Uchiha, would it hurt to note Madara as the most proficient Fire Release user among the Uchiha clan until someone else in the clan is shown or mentioned to have been able to use Majestic Annihilation better than him or to use an even more powerful technique? The Fox King(firstname.lastname@example.org (talk) 18:01, January 17, 2012 (UTC))
How did this move from a discussion on Madara and Katon to Water Release, Hiruzen and Tobirama? Both seem pointless to me especially when there's no evidence to support the fact that Madara is recognised as the most powerful Fire Release user in or outside of the Uchiha.--Cerez365™ 18:26, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
Your right, it doesn't. I'm sorry I seemed disrespectful. I didn't mean to. But even though being the strongest doesn't mean he is the best in every way, Madara is the only Uchiha who has used Fire Majestic Annihilation. Would it hurt to note he is the most proficient KNOWN user of the Fire Release in terms of Nature Transformation among the Uchiha clan until it is shown otherwise? The Fox King(email@example.com (talk) 19:04, January 17, 2012 (UTC))
@Cerez365 I didn't mean Madara is the best in the series, just in the Uchiha clan. I have corrected myself on that. And the fact that Fire Majestic Annihilation is larger and stronger than any Fire Release technique in terms of Nature Transformation that any Uchiha has been known or shown to have used is proof that Madara is the most proficient in Fire Release in that sense in his clan. Would it hurt to note he is until it is shown otherwise? The Fox King(firstname.lastname@example.org (talk) 20:14, January 17, 2012 (UTC))
But we haven't seen all the members or even a good enough percentage of them use fire release techniques for us to make that assumption... It is larger true, but I don't see why it's stronger. Just because it took more than one Suiton user to douse it does not necessarily mean that it was more powerful; that can be chalked up to the width of the technique. Using that train of thought I could easily say that Fugaku Uchiha's Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique would have probably require more that one Suiton user to douse and that Obito used the most powerful Katon since it actually incinerated bamboo. Speculations lke these can be made ll the time, that's why for things like this, sources are required. Something along the lines of someone actually saying that he is the most powerful fire release user would be nice.--Cerez365™ 20:23, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
Why Madara's is probably stronger is because every drop of water from the four Water Encampment Wall techniques used to douse it was evaporated. Thats how hot the fire was. If Madara's attack hadn't been doused in time, it would have swallowed up and incinerated 16 shinobi. And yes we haven't seen enough for an assumption like that to be made, so I'm asking would it be inappropriate to note him as the most proficient KNOWN or SHOWN member until we see otherwise? The Fox King(email@example.com (talk) 20:46, January 17, 2012 (UTC))
Yes it would be, since he's used one technique — one time which can be argued to be the biggest/strongest technique seen. I know you're apparently a fanboy of Madara's but unless they explicitly say "Madara is the greatest katon user" something like that has no substantiated claim.--Cerez365™ 20:52, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
Though, I don't see how his use of one technique, which wasn't even that impressive in my opinion, shows that he is the most proficient user of fire release. We also tend not to do say such temporary things such as "of all the known..." especially when there's no evidence to support the statement.--Cerez365™ 21:08, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
The way you have it written is like I'm saying he is the best in the series. I'm saying he is the best in the Uchiha clan at the Fire Release. And there is physical evidence that his is very strong. Where the technique is shown to have been evaporated, there is no water whatsoever on ground. You have to look on the whole page to see that, but there isn't. That is physical evidence backing up what I said because the fire was so hot, all the water was turned into steam. And since the Uchiha clan is almost totally extinct, would it hurt to use that temporary statement in this one case, since there probably would be too many more inquires about about the Uchiha? The Fox King(firstname.lastname@example.org (talk) 21:25, January 17, 2012 (UTC))
- And I'm saying that assumption cannot be made through the use of one technique. You keep talking about the water evaporating as if it should have? That's what normally happens when water is heated... When has any other Uchiha's fire release (or even used the same technique) been contested with a water release for the assumption that his is stronger been drawn? Even if they are extinct, if Kishimoto had intended Madara to be noted as the greatest fire release user, he would have had someone say it in the same manner that he had us know that Tokuma has the strongest Byakugan in the Hyūga clan. It's still possible that somewhere along the line he'll tell us that either some unknown or even one of the known, deceased members was the most proficient fire release user. Whether or not he is the best known user even at this point can be easily debated.--Cerez365™ 21:37, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
I didn't mean it like the water should have evaporated, but like it surprised me that every individual drop of water from four, not just one, but four Water Encampment Wall techniques together was totally evaporated. I was. The fact that there was no water left after that, even though Madara's attack is huge, is impressive don't you think? Is that physical evidence unusable? The Fox King(email@example.com (talk) 21:57, January 17, 2012 (UTC))
- Impressive, but still not enough to say that he is the most proficient in Katon techniques of the Uchiha. Like I said before stuff like that won't be used here unless you can site stated evidence.--Cerez365™ 22:02, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
Very well, then. We'll leave this subject be until there is some. In regards to my being a big fan of Madara, yes I am. He is one of my favorite characters in the series along with Naruto, Sasuke, and Gaara. Don't ask me why. The Fox King(firstname.lastname@example.org (talk) 00:17, January 18, 2012 (UTC))
How was he "improved"
I don't think it's Hashirama's face on Madara's chest for at least two reasons.
- he worked with Orochimaru to get Hashirama's cells in his right arm and I can't help but think it was a "failure" of some sort. And
- Madara would NOT be happy about his mosted hated rival's face on his chest.
- Danzō Shimura not Madara?
- You'd be surprised at the compromises people will make to attain what they want.--Cerez365™ 10:36, February 5, 2012 (UTC)
LOL! Yeah, Danzo XD forgot to put his name in, haha. And true, but I really don't think Madara would want that man's face on him. It's just a theory and my opinion...and praying to God it isn't that man's face XD (18.104.22.168 (talk) 10:29, February 6, 2012 (UTC))
it could be his physical capabilities were improved, think about it if he knew Nagato then he'd at least have been as old as the third Hokage was, and no matter how skilled he was he countered A's speed and strength, which personally i dont think a normal human body-even an Edo tensei body, could do on it's own 10:55, february 6, 2012 —This unsigned comment was made by 22.214.171.124 (talk • contribs) .
I don't think anyone would want another face growing out of any part of their body fixing to take over their entire being at any time. What exactly was improved is still unknown especially since we don't have any prior incidences to compare it to except for the events that created an entire valley. Also, Susanoo is an ultimate defence, we've seen that it takes quite a bit to destroy it.--Cerez365™ 12:17, February 6, 2012 (UTC)
It has been said that we know nothing of Madara's normal durability, but we have seen that he was able to survive the grave injuries he sustained during his final battle with Hashirama, one of which was being stabbed through his vital organs by a sword. We see this in Tobi's flashback as he said everyone thought Madara had died, even Hashirama. Would putting some recognition of this durability and vitality in his abilities section be wrong? The Fox King(email@example.com (talk) 18:54, January 21, 2012 (UTC))
Madara has awakened Rinnegan, so that means that he can manipulate every chakra's nature, that's what they said about Rinnegan (also he used Preta Path, so he knows very well like it works his power), so I thought that was right correct his chakra natures.—This unsigned comment was made by -Team-Yamato- (talk • contribs) .
- For the however much time, the Rinnegan allows you to master all FIVE BASIC NATURES whether or not the person wants to do that is up to them.--Cerez365™ 16:13, January 25, 2012 (UTC)
Space Time Teleportation
Minato seemed to implied that Madara can do Space Time Teleportation in Chapter 501 (or 500, I can not remember the chapter number, should we put it in the article?--126.96.36.199 (talk) 15:56, January 26, 2012 (UTC)
Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi
Why are we listing Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi under the list of Madara's abilities? We've never seen him use either, or hint that he has either. I don't recall it being a rule anywhere in the manga that Mangekyou Sharingan always comes with those abilities (I'd assume it doesn't, given that Kakashi and Shisui had differant abilities--and since Sasuke's genjutsu is confirmed to not be Tsukuyomi by Danzou).
As far as we know, even Sasuke only has Amaterasu because Itachi gave it to him. We haven't seen anything to confirm that its an actual inborn ability.
Obviously Susanowo seems to be a common ability to everyone, but until we actually see Madara shooting black fire or making people hallucinate 72 hours of torture, he shouldn't be listed with those powers. —This unsigned comment was made by 188.8.131.52 (talk • contribs) .
- Read /Archive 1#Ocular Powers, /Archive 1#amaterasu & tsukoyomi and /Archive 1#Tsukoyomi. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:20, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
- Edo Tensei works differently regarding in what form it revives the person. It's possible that Madara lost his implanted Senju's cells after resurrection, that's why Kabuto's (not Orochimaru's, that's bad translation, Orochimaru experimented with Danzo) enhancement became needed.Faust-RSI (talk) 16:17, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
What Kabuto is doing is based on Orochimaru's research. This chapter has proved that it's Kabuto's doing ... he even stated before that he want to try it out. Stating he had Wood Release and he lost it and Kabuto gave it again to him after resurrection is more speculative than what the manga actually shows. --Elveonora (talk) 22:52, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
It specifically says that he survived his battle with Hashirama and came away with Hashirama's cells. Granted, it doesn't say that he had implanted them before, but Tobi specifically attributed those actions to Madara, and since everything else Tobi has said about Madara turned out to be true, why wouldn't this part? 184.108.40.206 (talk) 04:06, February 25, 2012 (UTC)
wait, didn't madara get wood release on his own, by taking some of the first hokage's DNA during the battle at the valley of the end, then why does it say I'ts the result of Kabuto's experimenting?--220.127.116.11 (talk) 03:59, February 23, 2012 (UTC)
- When Kabuto says he improved Madara beyond his prime, Madara looks down his shirt and sees the Hashirama face. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 05:24, February 23, 2012 (UTC)
- Eh we do know that Madara attained the First's DNA after the Valley of the End battle...but maybe it was thanks to Kabuto's experiments that he was able to perfect his use of them...in chapter 561 page 11 he mentions he wanted to try a new jutsu then he uses Wood Release meaning he either didn't use then before his ressurection, or that he didn't have enough mastery of it before. Darksusanoo (talk) 00:27, February 24, 2012 (UTC)
No, we don't know that. It was Tobi that mentioned "Madara took Hashirama's strength" during the fight with Konan. But seeing as he himself has Hashirama's flesh, it's unknown if he was talking about himself or Madara. Madara stating he wants to try something out and Kabuto's statement are evidences clear enough in my opinion and less speculative than saying he had it before. There would be no reason for him too look at his chest after the statement of Kabuto about "enhacement/power beyond his prime" --Elveonora (talk) 00:48, February 24, 2012 (UTC)
Kabuto postulated that Madara himself had also taken some of Hashirama's DNA during their battle, to which Madara didn't refute. That question of Kabuto's is what caused him to look at his chest. We can't say that he didn't have Wood Release prior to his death because we don't know. But honestly think about it. Do you think he would just be able to whip out the two known largest scale Wood Release techniques with no prior possession of it? Skitts (talk) 01:44, February 24, 2012 (UTC)
- It's not so much to do with possession, but mastery...Yamato and Danzo were two other that obtained the Wood Release but it pales in comparison with Madara's skill of it. It's more than proven that Madara gained the WR after the Valley battle. I'm saying that Kabuto's experiments on Edo Tensei Madara may have upgraded his use of it. WR has been shown to be one of the most difficult kekkei genkai powers to master. Darksusanoo (talk) 02:49, February 24, 2012 (UTC)
Soo...maybe it could be stated that one of Kabuto's upgrades was to enhance Madara's ability with the Wood Release...in between the fact that Madara already had it before his death, plus his conversation with Kabuto, plus Kabuto's own statements in the last chapter it's obvious that Kabuto enhanced Madara's use of the Wood Release. Any other opinions? Darksusanoo (talk) 03:16, February 25, 2012 (UTC)
- Personally I think that there is an error of interpretation in that part of the Madara's article. Madara looks down his shirt when Kabuto speaking with him suggests he is not died in the battle against the First Hokage, but rather that he received part of his power after the duel ( http://i11.mangareader.net/naruto/561/naruto-2752561.jpg http://i4.mangareader.net/naruto/561/naruto-2752563.jpg ). Thinking about the words of Tobi to Konan and his Hashirama's clone, seems obvious that Kabuto was referring to the episode regarding the stolen cells of Hashirama in the fight of the valley of the end.
- The upgrade of Kabuto on Madara (or at least part of this upgrade) regards the particular state of Edo Madara in comparison with the other Edo Tensei. We know that Madara is died when Nagato was alive, so late in his life. He said also that he has gained his rinnegan shortly before his death. Anyway Kabuto was able to resurrect Madara with all his abilities, included the rinnegan, but in his prime and not as an old man (and so physically more skilled), as it's possible to see a resurrected Madara young as when he fought in the valley of the end. It's an exception among all the Edo Tensei.--JK88 (talk) 20:01, February 26, 2012 (UTC)
@JK88 Madara may not have eaged over the decades due to his possession of Hashirama's cells. Tobi, from what has been seen of his face hasn't aged much if at all, so maybe Madara still looked the same. The Fox King(firstname.lastname@example.org (talk) 23:44, February 27, 2012 (UTC))
I have a better translation of that line: "Kabuto: Heheh... The prototype Orochimaru created in Danzou is nothing compared to this. The First Hokage, stronger than even Madara. The fusion of those two shinobi is my trump card!! No one can stop my Edo Tensei!!"
- Q: So, in your translation Kabuto also didn't directly say that he created Madara/Hashirama fusion. Kabuto just says it's his fusion, which is only logical because he did summon Madara. So, all these discussions about the contradictions between Madara's and Kabuto's words were pointless?
- A: I guess so. It's true that in the Japanese text Kabuto doesn't directly say that he's the one who fused them, but it doesn't necessarily rule that out. But yeah, that's not likely since that does contradict some earlier stuff.Faust-RSI (talk) 12:09, March 2, 2012 (UTC)
- Where I said it was my translation? Can you even read? So you think I was talking with myself, questioning my own trans and answering myself what I had in mind? How much more stupid this can get? Read before posting.Faust-RSI (talk) 21:40, March 2, 2012 (UTC)
New Ability (Anime Only)
In this video from the new game you can see Madara's fight against Hashirama and you can cleary see that Madara can rewind time for a few seconds, i think this should be added as a Anime only technique, calling it Time Regression. --ShenLong Kazama (talk) 00:05, February 25, 2012 (UTC)
- I agree, and add that he can use Wind Release cause i see he can do it with his fan XaleraUchiha (talk) 00:09, February 25, 2012 (UTC)
(E/C)Pretty sure that was representative of the Sharingan's ability to gather a glimpse of where a moving object/being will be in the near future, not time manipulation. Also, Game only stuff is the least cannon of all media. Skitts (talk) 00:10, February 25, 2012 (UTC)
- What stance to take on this content is already being discussed here. Blackstar1 (talk) 00:11, February 25, 2012 (UTC)
On Narutoforums they discussed this aswell, it has been confirmed that Toei and Kishi worked together so it's probably canon, and as you can see clearly in the video Madara's EMS was used to rewind time. And the thing with predicitng the future, you are all wrong, read the manga again, you can clearly see that the Sasuke sees only the images of the opponent's next strike. So Madara's EMS can clearly rewind time. --ShenLong Kazama (talk) 13:52, February 25, 2012 (UTC)
I've seen nothing stating that. The closest thing to something like that being said is what Blackstar1 posted over on the talk page for the game about:
- "In particular, the developers and animation studios have worked very closely together to create new content that will be considered canon, which adds up to around sixty minutes of additional anime content." — 
I'm talking about the one in the OVA, which allows him to turn time back. Some believe that it's just him predicting the move, but there are people (like me) who view it as a new jutsu. I think that a page about it should be created, but with adding this "false information" box, or whatever it's called (like here: http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Wood_Release:_Stocks), and saying in Trivia that it could be Sharingan prediction. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 22:45, March 16, 2012 (UTC)
This was just Sasuke's flashback. I still insist adding the jutsu with a "false information" box, and writing in trivia that it could just be Sharingan prediction. Both sides will be happy, I believe. —This unsigned comment was made by Patsoumas1995 (talk • contribs) .
- This is something too speculative to even imply, in my opinion. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:56, March 26, 2012 (UTC)
Kabuto stated in the last manga that "what orochimaru created is on a completely different level from what danzou prototyped" when he was thinking about madara's abilities. But what does that mean ? the power to bring back the abilities with edo tensei or that orochimaru implanted hashirama's DNA and created this super-mega-powerful madara ?--18.104.22.168 (talk) 15:15, February 25, 2012 (UTC)
- It's a mistranslation, the correct phrase is: "Heheh... The prototype Orochimaru created in Danzou is nothing compared to this." Source: http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=805317 --JK88 (talk) 09:58, February 27, 2012 (UTC)
Should we put in his info that he is somewhat a sexist? Obviously by the way he called Tsuande "a weak woman". I think this pretty much implies he finds all female ninja to be weaklings. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 17:41, February 29, 2012 (UTC)
- But he praised Mei a bit earlier (albeit berating her right before that) To be honest Madara's not very coherent when it comes to anything Senju related but I don't think that one instance makes him sexist.--Cerez365™ 17:47, February 29, 2012 (UTC)
Well, although he belittles Tsuande and puts her down for not being as strong as the First from whom she is descended from.. He ends it with "And above all you are a weak woman". I think it's pretty clear he thinks females are weak. He doesn't just say "You are a descendant of the Senju and you're weak female Senju". He separately says "You are a weak woman". If you get what I mean? SusanooUnleashed (talk) 17:52, February 29, 2012 (UTC)
Just sounds to me that he is calling her weak because her medic skills are no where near her grandfathers. In fact he did mention her senju heritage, "weak people are ugly, and weak senju are even more uglier", he is comparing her skills as a senju.Umishiru (talk) 19:13, February 29, 2012 (UTC)
I don't think that Madara was being sexist (though this week's chapter did feel oddly translated). What I understood is that Tsunade is a weak woman because he sees her as a weak Senju, not that she's weak because she's a woman. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:43, February 29, 2012 (UTC)
Madara and Wind Release
- In that animated sequence in Naruto Shippūden: Ultimate Ninja Storm Generations. Apparently the anime team was collaborated with and as such they consider canon as far as the anime is concerned. Skitts (talk) 19:49, March 2, 2012 (UTC)
It is from the NS:UNSG anime content with his gunbai, even if for me, he doesn't use wind release and it is his gunbai who generate wind. All your answers and why we treat the content as anime canon is here -> Talk:Naruto_Shippūden:_Ultimate_Ninja_Storm_Generations#Canonicity. Light-Revan (talk) 19:53, March 2, 2012 (UTC)
- Yes. We do it for everyone else. I think it should be noted that he uses a fan to create the wind, like how we did with Temari. Joshbl56 20:07, March 2, 2012 (UTC)
I remove it until we have a real debate about this. For me, I don't think Madara is a wind user. His gunbai itself can generate wind, like Hōki's sword or Shura's umbrella generate fire, Aoi's umbrella generate water or the Bashōsen generate earth, fire, lightning, water and wind.
Madara just creates a gust of wind like any large fan can do so, and he showed no other technique with it that requiring an ability in wind release, like a wind manipulation into something else, as would Temari with his fan. Light-Revan (talk) 20:11, March 2, 2012 (UTC)
I think there's a clear similarity between what Madara and Temari have done with their respective fans. It is definitely Wind Release. Just as Temari is able to utilize her fan in her Futon techniques, it's quite obvious that Madara did the exact same thing in that OVA. Skitts (talk) 20:18, March 2, 2012 (UTC)
- her. Temari is a chick. Also, the gust of wind he used repeled around 5 ninjas. I doubt his fan, with the size it is, can do that. I had more but Skitts got to it before me >.<. Joshbl56 20:20, March 2, 2012 (UTC)
- All right, you've convinced me =). I put him back wind user. Light-Revan (talk) 23:23, March 2, 2012 (UTC)
I support adding him as a wind release user for the following reasons:
- it's "anime only" thus it has no weight on manga
- As he has Rinnegan, we will possibly see him using it one way or the other
EDIT: This is kinda similar to Kurama/Naruto transformed using Wind and Fire release in anime ... it's mentioned, yet it's just anime only thus not canonical. This Madara case is more convincing than the Kurama one due to the Gunbai's usage never shown in manga this the anime giving it some explanation. Even if it's not canonical, the animators have tried to make it seem feasible and if the Kurama case was approved which makes much less sense than this, why not ? --Elveonora (talk) 00:48, March 3, 2012 (UTC)
It hasn't been directly confirmed by Madara Uchiha himself that he survived Hashirama's battle; he simply stays silent when Kabuto asks for confirmation. Shouldn't his death be questioned rather than giving a straight answer? I don't think we should be jumping to conclusions until he himself states it.
Also, just because he was able to perform the Wood Release techniques flawelessly doesn't necessarily mean he's had experience with them prior to his resurrection. It's certainly possible that he memorized all of the hand seals with his numerous encounters with Hashirama decades ago. Someone also brought up that he mentioned he wanted to try the technique, implying that it was his first attempt. Not to mention he refers to their legendary battle in the Valley of the End as "a fight to the death." --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 22:38, March 6, 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, as Madara said, "I fought that battle to gain access to that guy's abilities". Also the fact that he knew or knew of Nagato and his pos.ession of the Rinnegan. In regards to Wood Release, think about it. The fact that he had Hashirama's DNA for decades means he had plenty of time to train with it. Memorizing hand seals has little to no relevance here, considering thus far the one's he's used only required him using a single seal. And fight to the death simply means they went all out and the last one standing was the victor. One doesn't have to die, seeing as trickery can be used to escape if victory cannot be had.Skitts (talk) 01:28, March 7, 2012 (UTC)
The masked man said that, not Madara, and apparently this wikia doesn't take anything Tobi says for granted when it involves Madara seeing as he's a "liar." If Madara lived to even see Nagato's birth, he would be around 40 years older, but his appearance is identical to when he fought in the Valley of the End, and Edo Tensei resurrects all shinobi into the state they were in right up to their death (with the exception of ocular powers and so forth). Besides, if Hashirama didn't kill him, then who actually possessed the caliber of power to kill the omnipotent Madara Uchiha? And why would he praise the First as much as he does? Given Madara's arrogance and pride, he would've responded to Kabuto with some cocky confirmation, not stay silent.
Regardless, there is no definite proof that Hashirama killed him, and it's merely assumption to say otherwise until Madara (or Hashirama somehow) speaks the words himself.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 02:08, March 7, 2012 (UTC)
- Madara has already spoken his words. He said he knew Nagato. I don't see anything to discuss here. Madara looks young because his Edo Tensei is "special" and he is resurrected "beyond his prime". That's all in the manga. End of story.Faust-RSI (talk) 06:19, March 7, 2012 (UTC)
It isn't that simple. The "beyond his prime" statement is referring to Kabuto and Orochimaru's experimentation by implanting Hashirama's DNA and face into his body. There haven't been any other details of the Edo Tensei itself differing from the other shinobi resurrected by the technique. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 06:44, March 7, 2012 (UTC)
- "The "beyond his prime" statement is referring to Kabuto and Orochimaru's experimentation by implanting Hashirama's DNA and face into his body." - where did you get this from?Faust-RSI (talk) 06:48, March 7, 2012 (UTC)
Have you not been reading the manga? When Kabuto talked about the "reunion" of Hashirama and Madara in one, he meant that Madara now had access to, presumably, all of the First Hokage's abilities due to the experimentation of himself and Orochimaru. This is what he is referring to when he states Madara is "beyond his prime."--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 00:57, March 8, 2012 (UTC)
- You should read the proper translations before posting such things.Faust-RSI (talk) 06:31, March 8, 2012 (UTC)
Uh...ok? Kabuto has been babbling about how Orochimaru's creation, which is essentially Madara, is unlike anything for a couple of chapters. Never has anything other than the infusing of Hashirama's DNA been mentioned when talking about him being beyond his prime.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 01:42, March 10, 2012 (UTC)
- Did you even read what I had said? This translation is incorrect.Faust-RSI (talk) 17:00, March 11, 2012 (UTC)
@Uchiha Suraku Madara may not have aged after his battle with Hashirama due to the fact that he had his cells. They might have enabled him to stay young and alive longer just like Tobi. From what we've seen of Tobi's face, he has very little wrinkles. The Fox King(email@example.com (talk) 00:46, March 12, 2012 (UTC))
Not aging whatsoever and "slightly" aging are two completely different circumstances. Either way, it seems that Hashirama's cells do not cease someone from becoming older altogether, or else Tobi would be void of all wrinkles. Aside from Madara's physical appearance, what about his armor? Did his armor survive decades of would-be deterioration? I know the same concept can be applied to Tobi's robes, but he either kept them in storage like he does with the many Sharingan he has in his laboratory or they are fairly new (along with his different colored gunbai). There's still no irrefutable proof that Madara survived Hashirama's battle. Him knowing of Nagato's existence is controversial, and I find it hard to believe that Madara or Tobi implanted his eyes into him at such a young age, especially when it's such a risky procedure.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 18:57, March 12, 2012 (UTC)
The very fact that he did know Nagato is proof he didn't die. Nagato was born decades after the fight with Hashirama. As to his armor, Madara could possibly have made new suites of armor throughout the years, or preserved them as you said. Madara did not die when he fought with Hashirama. Madara may very well have been the one who gave Nagato the Rinnegan and the fact that Nagato's was always active can be presented as proof of the implantment because implanted dojutsu are always active. Madara can deactivate his Rinnegan at will. How he gave Nagato the Rinnegan may have been that he took some DNA from himself with his Rinnegan active, infused it with his chakra, and implanted it into Nagato's eyes which might have caused them to mutate into the Rinnegan. As to Madara not aging, he has done more with Hashirama's DNA than Tobi, so he may have been able to augment his body better and not age at all. Along with this his not aging might have been that he was stronger than Tobi and could do more with Hashirama's DNA than the latter. The Fox King(firstname.lastname@example.org (talk) 17:01, March 15, 2012 (UTC))
I don't think it can be said Madara possessed Hashirama's DNA longer than Tobi considering Tobi is still alive, has a living clone of Hashirama that he has been harvesting for some time to create 100,000 Zetsus, and is evidently utilizing the cells to replace his limbs and so forth.
Nonetheless, what irrefutable evidence is there that suggests he was able to use Wood Release prior to his resurrection? He's never been seen doing so in any of the flashbacks nor stated he was capable of performing Hashirama's techniques before his death.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 06:46, March 16, 2012 (UTC)
I never said he had the DNA longer than Tobi. Tobi admitted he is weaker than Madara, so he probably can't do as much as Madara can with it. The level that Madara can use the Wood Release on is on a totally different level than Danzo and Yamato. His is stronger and can create forests in an instant, similar to Hashirama's use of it. You don't get that way in an instant. It takes practice. No doubt his stronger than typical Uchiha chakra help with that. The Fox King(email@example.com (talk) 12:40, March 16, 2012 (UTC))
We've also yet to see hardly any of Tobi's abilities as he's always using third parties in combat, but my point stands that from what has been shown, he has more experience with the First's DNA than Madara, who can only use the Mokuton techniques because of the experimentation by Orochimaru and Kabuto.
That's beside the point. From what has been displayed in the manga, Madara never used any of Hashirama's abilities before he was resurrected. Though, at this point, it doesn't seem to matter because no one is going to do anything about it.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 23:31, March 17, 2012 (UTC)
When Madara used the Wood Release, it was on a greater scale than Yamato and Danzo. He can use it on the same level as Hashirama. That wouldn't be if he was only able to use it after Kabuto experimented on him. He had it prior or he wouldn't have been able to use it like that. What proof do you have that Madara didn't have it prior to resurrection? He confirmed Kabuto was right as he did some studying on Madara's body and learned he had Hashirama's DNA. Thats what Kabuto said. The Fox King(firstname.lastname@example.org (talk) 02:39, March 18, 2012 (UTC))
As soon as I read the statement "After my brother died, he only left me his eyes and their power", I knew it would be misinterpreted. Madara is saying all that remained of Izuna after his death were his eyes and their power (with Madara), not that he took the eyes after death. I honestly can't stand these poor translations...--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 00:52, March 8, 2012 (UTC)
- Fixed. I'm not even sure why that was mentioned any at all.--Cerez365™ 01:21, March 8, 2012 (UTC)
Didn't Madara only show Wood Release (Water and Earth Release also included) only in the manga? Why isn't there a manga only sign in front of those elements in his infobox? 22.214.171.124 (talk) 05:35, March 9, 2012 (UTC)
We only put Anime Only in front of elements if they don't show up in the manga, the anime follows the manga so those elements will show up in the anime eventually.--TricksterKing (talk) 06:20, March 9, 2012 (UTC)
Did anyone notice that when madara was coming up from the tree or branch, that the technique was similar to the mayfly that zetsu used. shouldnt it be added to the list of techniques? Vmejia (talk) 00:13, March 11, 2012 (UTC)
- It's not Mayfly (at least I wouldn't cross that boundary esp. since we're not listing Zetsu's techniques as Wood Release just yet) it's just him coming out of a root. People have demonstrated the ability to merge with their own (elemental techniques) It's no different than hiding in the earth/--Cerez365™ 00:16, March 11, 2012 (UTC)
Which shows that he learns to release the Wind? --Samemaru 00:27, March 15, 2012 (UTC)
- The Rinnegan allows the user to automatically learn all of the natures. --KiumaruHamachi (talk) 00:30, March 15, 2012 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi
- Possibility doesn't mean that they will. He "used" it in Naruto Shippūden: Ultimate Ninja Storm Generations OVA (which is being considered anime material) with his Gunbai.--Cerez365™ 00:32, March 15, 2012 (UTC)
wind release technique
- Why O.o He just swings his fan doesn't he?...--Cerez365™ 23:30, March 15, 2012 (UTC)
- Um, what? I remember no such thing.
Madara and the Deva Path.
It says in his Rinnegan and Mangekyo Sharingan entries that he is able to pull two massive Meteorites down when using his Susanoo with his Rinnegan. Would that mean Madara is able to use the Deva Path ability enlarged by the Susanoo too drag the meteorites down? The Fox King(email@example.com (talk) 17:25, April 1, 2012 (UTC))
- Possibly, but we don't know that for a fact. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:32, April 1, 2012 (UTC)
- The fact a second meteorite popped out of nowhere when they stopped the first one leaves me open to the possibility he actually created those. What are the odds two giant meteorites happened to be passing by in space at the moment? Besides, many of the meteorites that land are very small, because most of it was destroyed when it entered the atmosphere. For them to be that size, either they were stupidly huge before entering the atmosphere, or they were simply created that big, inside the atmosphere already. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:52, April 1, 2012 (UTC)
You could be right about that. He might have also be using the Chibaku Tensei to hold them together if they weren't created by him, but if they were, he probably just formed them out of smaller meteorites or asteroids then used the Deva Path ability to pull them to the battlefield. Either way, what other technique could he have used to drag them down? The Fox King(firstname.lastname@example.org (talk) 18:11, April 1, 2012 (UTC))
We saw no black sphere being thrown to the sky for it to have been Chibaku Tensei. I don't believe what Madara did is any known Deva Path ability, because other than Chibaku Tensei, which we didn't see the black sphere, no other technique uses hand seals, but this one did. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:49, April 1, 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, maybe its one of his own creation or one that the Rikudo Sennin could only do besides him. Though on the subject of Chibaku Tensei, Madara is fast. He could have done it when he jumped up or when he absorbed the Rasenshuriken. He also might have used a wood clone to throw it up out of sight. Thats possible right? The Fox King(email@example.com (talk) 19:09, April 1, 2012 (UTC))
That only explains how he created them. What other technique could he have been using to pull the meteorites down besides the Deva Path ability? The Fox King(firstname.lastname@example.org (talk) 16:27, April 2, 2012 (UTC))
-sigh- Madara obviously used the Hiden: Kekkai Genkai Hijutsu: Gravity. >_> They didn't need any real assistance nor shown any to fall...
- Edit: And I'd like to point out that there is no real way Madara used Chibaku Tensei. even if you say he used a clone or something to do it out of sight, I think it would be quite ridiculous to say that NO ONE felt or saw ridiculously massive amounts of earth being pulled into the sky. As far as can be seen, they simply appeared there. Skitts (talk) 19:01, April 2, 2012 (UTC)
That not what I said. I said he might have used Chibaku Tensei to gather asteroids and smaller meteorites out of space and form then into the giant ones that came flying in. That would explain their size. I didn't say he used the Chibaku Tensei to gather earth. We don't know that all it does. The Fox King(email@example.com (talk) 19:24, April 2, 2012 (UTC))
Again, I said he might have sent a wood clone away and had it do it for him. Besides, I'm not saying he even used Chibaku Tensei at all. I'm saying he MIGHT have. No one on here can say they know for a fact that he didn't or did do that with a wood clone. He might very well have used Creation of all things. We just don't know for sure on all fronts. Besides, I started this discussion about the Deva Path ability being used to drag them down and it seems that subject escalated into something I never intended. Why do we just let this discussion die until more of Madara's strategies are revealed? The Fox King(firstname.lastname@example.org (talk) 02:50, April 3, 2012 (UTC))
Madara's Time Reversal
In the Generations OVA, Madara is seen using his EMS to briefly turn back time against Hashirama to his own benefit. This should be mentioned somewhere, as anime only, no? --126.96.36.199 (talk) 20:28, April 4, 2012 (UTC)
An Intelligence section; Really?
Is there any real precedence for Madara to have an Intelligence section? That section isn't used all that often and it's usually when the character was given considerable praise in that area or showed very much of it. Madara has had neither of those as far as I can remember. Skitts (talk) 21:13, May 12, 2012 (UTC)
- This Madara? No :s He hasn't displayed any form of intelligence out of the ordinary in my opinion...--Cerez365™(talk) 21:36, May 12, 2012 (UTC)
While that would ordinarily be true, Madara's intelligence has allowed him to outwit five of the strongest ninja in the series at once and in an instant. Thats pretty noteworthy. The Fox King(email@example.com (talk) 14:36, May 13, 2012 (UTC))
- But that's just it. He's done nothing out of the ordinary to warrant an intelligence section.
- Not because he's fighting the five Kage and managed to outwit a group of people with a clone means it should be mentioned. The other bit talks about him being able to deduce an alliance between shinobi... The reincarnated Kage did the same. * It doesn't take a genius to realise that people, wearing different flak jackets and the same forehead protectors are a united alliance.
- The Rinnegan bit, the time that Madara refers to as "shortly" before his death is an unquantified— it could've been anywhere between hours to months. I highly doubt he awakened it→ died from heart failure 2 seconds later. With that I vote it be removed, his battle-oriented prowess is already mentioned (the fact that he's an Uchiha should say that on its own), using a clone is not ingenious, seeing a forehead protector isn't a great feat of intelligence either. --Cerez365™(talk) 15:12, May 13, 2012 (UTC)
I think stating that he has a great battle prowess as he spent most of his youth on battlefield and being once a leader of Uchiha Clan is enough. But so far Itachi is a better tactician than Madara in my opinion --Elveonora (talk) 15:41, May 13, 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, but he still outwitted some of the strongest ninja in the series with great ease. Something I don't think Itachi would have been able to do. Maybe some of that is unnecessary and I'll remove it. But I'll keep his outwitment of the five Kage in there as thats something out of the ordinary. Thats noteworthy. The Fox King(firstname.lastname@example.org (talk) 15:31, May 14, 2012 (UTC))
- Outwitting some of the strongest shinobi. Strength has nothing to do with intelligence, I'm not calling them idiots because they surely aren't but leaving the bit that he was able to use a wood clone to deceive them is like calling Kakashi— who uses a clone or replacement as part of his initial tactics, a genius because of that alone. Using corporeal clones to deceive others on a whole is not something that shows any amount of intelligence and all of what he's done is already mentioned elsewhere in his article. Madara himself, hasn't shown any form of intelligence that it warrants his own section on it.--Cerez365™(talk) 15:40, May 14, 2012 (UTC)
He was able to think ahead enough to know that they'd gape in wonder of his technique. He overpowered them easily with it. Besides, hes an Uchiha. They are all good tacticians. Making some more changes is called for, but Madara deserves to have one in his own right, just like Itachi and Sasuke. The Fox King(email@example.com (talk) 15:45, May 14, 2012 (UTC))
- We're talking about him using a wood clone right? The wood clone that got its ass kicked right? Using a clone is not a sign of intelligence, it's a basic shinobi tactic from what I've seen throughout the series. You're making it sound as though he's not supposed to formulate battle strategies. Uchiha have only been said to be battle oriented that does not immediately equal being a good tactician. Both Sasuke and Itachi's intelligence has been aptly displayed through various different mediums as characters we know a lot more about so it's not the same comparing them to Madara else we should add an intelligence section for everyone from the Uchiha clan based on that line of thinking. Again outsmarting people with a clone can in no way warrant an intelligence section.--Cerez365™(talk) 15:55, May 14, 2012 (UTC)
- The Fox King, going by your logic, Naruto's first use of the Shadow Clone Technique makes him a genius because he used clones and a perverted Sexy Technique. Naruto is definitely not a genius in any form just because he used a clone. The same goes for Madara: him using a clone doesn't instantly make him a genius. --Speysider (Talk Page) 16:00, May 14, 2012 (UTC)
I have edited the section and said he is a successful and capable tactician, the latter being there because it was successful against the five kage. His ability to overpower them with one combo attack is not seen every day and therefore noteworthy. The Fox King(firstname.lastname@example.org (talk) 16:03, May 14, 2012 (UTC))
- The rewrite makes no difference to me because he shouldn't have an intelligence section in the first place. You're using the premise that he outsmarted the five Kage with a clone as his intelligence which is wrong. That is not a sign of intelligence nor tactical skills. Madara is already stated to excel in battle, that should be enough. As far as I've seen he hasn't used intelligence to do anything, he's only shown brute force and a string of techniques used to overpower his opponents, there's nothing intelligent or tactical about that at all.--Cerez365™(talk) 16:28, May 14, 2012 (UTC)
Do you really believe he doesn't do any thinking before he uses a technique? Him not thinking before using so much chakra is stupid. Hes not stupid. I'll remove clone period, but he did devise a way to overpower them with one combo move. Given their the five Kage, thats pretty abnormal for it to work in one try. The Fox King(email@example.com (talk) 16:31, May 14, 2012 (UTC))
- No, of course he thinks. But no shinobi goes into battle without thinking... That would mean that every character should have an intelligence section. These sections are supposed to denote "exceptional" or out of the ordinary shows of intelligence.
- Using so much chakra? They have a possibly infinite if not near infinite source of chakra. There is no such thing as using too much chakra for someone who's been reincarnated.
- Again. You are using the fact that he's fighting the five current Kage as a benchmark of his intelligence which is again... wrong. The Kage are powerful yes, but there has been no exceptional use of intelligence during this battle just power and "basic" tactical skills. Just because he's fighting the Kage using a clone Madara himself said took his dōjutsu to differentiate is not a show if intelligence. There is no need for an intelligence section in Madara's article at this point in time.--Cerez365™(talk) 16:47, May 14, 2012 (UTC)
No, I'm using his ability to devise a way to overpower them in one combo move as my current point maker. Don't you think being able to devise a way to overpower individuals as experienced and powerful as the five Kage in one attempt is a note-worthy intelligence use? How many other characters have been shown to do that? The Fox King(firstname.lastname@example.org (talk) 16:53, May 14, 2012 (UTC))
- Yes and as I've said there was nothing particularly noteworthy in his plan of attack. People attack you with a barrage of attacks→ use clone to escape- how is that noteworthy when there's a myriad of people who have done the same? If anything what he did was a show of power not intelligence and even that is debatable because of the power of the Edo Tensei. As for how many other characters have been shown to do that, no one can answer that question because no generation of the five Kage has ever fought together in this manner.--Cerez365™(talk) 17:01, May 14, 2012 (UTC)
I'm not talking about the clone to escape move. I'm talking about the Flowering forest and Susanoo combo move he did before that. The one that starts at the beginning of chapter 575. He certainly thought before he acted on that and managed to overpower them all. None of them could foresee he was going to do that. Given their experience, especially Onoki, thats a pretty impressive attack plan don't you think? The Fox King(email@example.com (talk) 17:11, May 14, 2012 (UTC))
- I don't know how else to put this. Intelligence sections are for people who have shown incredible feats of wit. Yes he thought it through, I don't know someone who would be fighting without doing that; it's just a simple battle strategy. Also, Ōnoki knows nothing about his use of Wood Release, no one does.
- Ōnoki knows Madara's techniques pre-Hashimara DNA,
- Tsunade and Ōnoki know of the Wood Release techniques,
- Madara using them together is an unknown until now. It's not as if he had it using before so they'd have precedence to work with.
- He used the Advent of a World of Flowering Trees technique (which Tsunade warned them not to breathe in)→ not wanting to get captured in it himself, he uses Susanoo to protect himself→ then breathed fire above them so as to not let any of them escape. Nothing in that is out of the ordinary even while fighting Kage and as such shouldn't be mentioned in an intelligence section by itself.--Cerez365™(talk) 17:41, May 14, 2012 (UTC)
Well, you do have a point about that. Only one thing in an intelligence section looks incomplete. But that was a smart battle plan. Yes Tsunade warned them not to breathe the pollen, but how do you know it would effect Madara when it was his pollen and when he was Edo Tenseied? The Fox King(firstname.lastname@example.org (talk) 17:46, May 14, 2012 (UTC))
- For what other reason would he have activated Susanoo? Their body parts/functions still work as far as I know.--Cerez365™(talk) 17:49, May 14, 2012 (UTC)
Madara did want to kill them all and it can be seen that his Susanoo's hands were big enough to swat them all into the forest at once. Maybe thats why. Certainly is possible right? Anyway I've removed the intelligence section in Madara's abilities until there is more to be added except a smart battle plan. The Fox King(email@example.com (talk) 17:53, May 14, 2012 (UTC))
- We don't know right now but Kabuto made it sound like evolution. Joshbl56 00:34, May 31, 2012 (UTC)
I have a suspicion that the scanlation of Kabuto saying 'natural progression'/evolution may not be entirely cirrect. Anywho, we're not exactly sure. All we know for sure is that Madara obtained (and presumably impanted) Hashirama's DNA after obtaining it during thwir fight at the Valley of the End and that decades later near his true death, he awakened his Rinnegan. Skitts (talk) 01:13, May 31, 2012 (UTC)
Just pointing out that Danzo had both Sharingan and Hashi cells and I haven't seen any Rinnegan running around ... Tobi as well, he had to steal one--Elveonora (talk) 04:01, May 31, 2012 (UTC) @Skitts Madara did implant Hashirama's DNA. No presumably about that. The Fox King(firstname.lastname@example.org (talk) 12:14, May 31, 2012 (UTC))
What he meant that we don't know when he did so ... right after or closer to his death. But I still think it was Kabuto's job and he had no Hashi stuff before ... but reading a more correct translation, the first is likely true after all ... --Elveonora (talk) 12:53, May 31, 2012 (UTC)
Yes ... again.
Are we sure that Madara has Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi ? He has used just "genjutsu: sharingan" stuff but why hasn't he used Tsukuyomi on Raikage and others ? Also why not Amaterasu instead of basic fire ? I know the whole "in order to use Susanoo, both are required" but did it cleary say "amaterasu and tsukuyomi are required" or just "both eye powers to unlock the third" and wasn't the former referring just to Itachi ?
2nd thing .... Chakra attacks aren't working on Madara due to absorption path and all ... but he says that ONLY physical attacks can harm him ... I thought Deva Path can repel physical damage, isn't that a clear indication he can't use it ?--Elveonora (talk) 13:17, May 31, 2012 (UTC)
Yes, he probably does have them, but because we haven't seen them, its noted in his article that he hasn't been seen using them. Maybe because of his Rinnegan being active in the Tsukuyomi case and because it would be obvious in the Amaterasu case. The former may be the reason for both as its stated in his article that he can't use the powers of his Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan while his Rinnegan is active, Susanoo being the only exception. The Fox King(email@example.com (talk) 14:48, May 31, 2012 (UTC))
Yes, it was at one point said that Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu were required to awaken Susanoo. It's the same reason that the wiki lists Sasuke as a Tsukuyomi user, despite no confirmed uses. It's probably best to just wait for the next databook for confirmation on this issue, as has been decided with Sasuke in the past.--BeyondRed (talk) 16:29, May 31, 2012 (UTC)
@Elveonora. He knows them. There is no doubt. The 3rd Databook says that Susanoo ONLY awakens in those (not Itachi alone) who have awakened BOTH Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. @BeyonRed Actually, Sasuke used Tsukuyomi against B and Danzo basically says Sasuke used it against him as well. Anyway, why bring up any of the other Paths anyway? It has basically been shown without a shadow of a doubt that Madara cannot use any of them and he made that rather clearer this chapter. Then again, it's possible that those meteors were a Deva Path ability but that seems quite unlikely.
- I think these threads need to stop being made. If a character has used Susanoo, he can use it's required parent techniques. Whether or not he chooses to use it is up to Kishimoto. Skitts (talk) 17:18, May 31, 2012 (UTC)
I don't understand though. Sasuke's possession of Blaze Release is the reason why his having Tsukuyomi is speculated on, but what has Madara done to discredit this at all o.O? --Cerez365™(talk) 17:44, May 31, 2012 (UTC)
- But he hasn't used any other Mangekyō Sharingan-affiliated ability besides Susanoo though, so who is to say he doesn't have them? Not because you're able to use an ability means that you have to... Asuma's Wind Release: Dust Cloud Technique, Itachi's Yasaka Magatama and so on are prime examples of this.--Cerez365™(talk) 19:15, May 31, 2012 (UTC)
So if every MS user has only Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu cause they are REQUIRED to unlock Susanoo, how does it come that Shisui has Kotoamatsukami and Obito/Kakashi Kamui ? Not to mention Tobi's mysterious space-time power which stems from his Sharingan ? There's simply no reason for Madara to use regular Sharingan genjutsu instead of Tsukuyomi--Elveonora (talk) 20:11, May 31, 2012 (UTC)
- Ah but you assuming that everyone has to be able to awaken Susanoo. Remember that Itachi showed shock/amazement that Sasuke was also able to awaken Susanoo while in the forest, so I at least don't think that it's a must that every MS awakens Susanoo. That would explain Kotoamatsukami and Shisui who seems to be more genjutsu-oriented. As for Kamui, I believe that article says it's something that any MS wielder can unlock meaning that may not even be the (unique) technique granted by Obito's left eye.--Cerez365™(talk) 20:17, May 31, 2012 (UTC)
Then there are questions:
- Why both of Shisui's eyes possess the same power ?
- If any MS wielder can unlock Kamui, what's Kakashi's MS power then ? Because that would mean that Sasuke/Itachi could add Kamui to their current MS powers ...
- What's Obito's eye power then ?
- There are many questions and contradictions.
- Where did any of us say that every MS wielder has those techniques? Better yet, where in the series was that ever stated. No where. As per ShounenSuki's 3rd Databook translation for Susanoo (paraphrased)
- "Amaterasu - denoting the Light of the Physical world- and Tsukuyomi- denoting the Darkness of the Spiritual World. When both of these powers have been awakened, so too is a 3rd power; that is Susanoo.
- There are no contradictions. Never was it said that all MS provide the same techniques or that both eyes have unique techniques. However Susanoo was stated to only awaken upon those 2 being known.
- Where did it ever state that the Mangekyo Sharingan had to give the user two different abilities? Or any extra abilities at all? For all we know, Kakashi just doesn't know or use the 'special' abilities of his MS. Joshbl56 20:42, May 31, 2012 (UTC)
Okay then ... but what about the "not used or wasn't mentioned he/she can use - we don't list it" rule ? We should list it only after a character has used the technique or is renown for it. I know "he has Susanoo so also Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu" but we don't list all the Rinnegan paths, but he has Rinnegan so we should ... right ?--Elveonora (talk) 21:39, May 31, 2012 (UTC)
It's a bit different with parent and derived techniques. If you can use an ability, then you must be able to use the parent technique, the Eight Trigrams Vacuum Wall Palm is an example of this, as for the rest of your question:
- Dunno why Shisui's eyes have the same ability, it may have been his "Susanoo" in the sense of being his ultimate MS technique (speculation on my part).
- If Kamui can be learnt by anyone with MS, I don't know what Kakashi's MS ability is really.
- Dunno. It is possible that they could learn it...
- They're not so much contradictions as they are simple questions. Not because he can use an ability means that it's their unique MS ability or that it's known at all. It is possible that it is impossible for it to be awaken in a foreign body.--Cerez365™(talk) 21:59, May 31, 2012 (UTC)
- Nice answer except that both eyes are required to use the third power.
- And maybe it's unique to Kakashi/Obito and that part from databook is misinterpreted.
I am not bothering to read the full of this talkpage to see that if someone has put this up before. I've heard many people's varying comments on Madara's arrogance. In my opinion, he is arrogant, but not a fool. He know's that however powerful one is, his enemies can still outmanouver him whether they are weaker or stronger. That's why he always had been able to hold his ground and survive.188.8.131.52 (talk) 11:29, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
Hes not arrogant. Hes just prideful and confident. Theres a difference between that and arrogance. If hes right about what hes saying, hes just stating the facts. That counts as him telling the truth, not being arrogant. Hes made no arrogant statements as nothing he says has shown he thinks he better than someone without having that he was. The Fox King(firstname.lastname@example.org (talk) 11:59, June 1, 2012 (UTC))
Firstly you don't have to be a fool if you're arrogant. Secondly Madara is an arrogant braggart. You're making him sound like he had a quiet pride and confidence like Itachi or even Gaara for example which is not true. There's a huge difference between being prideful and decent and being prideful and loud like Madara. He is reincarnated and immediately decides that everyone is weak, and wishes he could resurrect Hashirama to see the failed generation etc etc etc. I mean he wanted to kill Tsunade because he deemed her a weak Senju. Madara left the real of being prideful and confident a long time ago.--Cerez365™(talk) 12:09, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
- Madara is not arrogant. He is just very boastful and confident. —IndxcvNovelist (talk | contribs | PR | RLS) 12:17, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict with IndxcvNovelist X( ) Madara is arrogant. Going by the definition of arrogance, he fit it perfectly and that's just one example. Joshbl56 12:42, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
@Cerez I didn't say anything about him being quite., but hes not arrogant. He is kind of like Itachi, only loud, but hes not truly arrogant in the fact that he doesn't think hes better than anyone without having proven that he was. Hes better than any of the five Kage individually and has fully justified any statement hes made about himself. In regards to Tsunade, he admitted he was wrong to call her weak and later openly admitted she was very strong. Don't forget that. hes just confident and prideful, but not truly arrogant at all. The Fox King(email@example.com (talk) 13:22, June 1, 2012 (UTC))
- The point he even made that statement in the first place shows that he is arrogant. Just because he can recognize someones strength and go back on his statements doesn't mean he isn't arrogant. If that still doesn't change your mind then maybe this picture will. Joshbl56 13:40, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
@Joshb156 He was right. Onoki was beneath him then and now. Hes right about most everything he says. He was wrong about Tsunade and admitted it. Its takes a man to admit hes wrong. An arrogant person would maintain that and keep going with it. For example, if Madara was really arrogant, he would have kept on calling Tsunade weak when she fell for his trap and got impale. But he didn't say anything except that he believed she was dead. Why do you think the five Kage chose to convene and fight him together? Because they knew any less than that wouldn't have a prayer of defeating him. Hes not arrogant, just prideful in a loud way and confident. The Fox King(firstname.lastname@example.org (talk) 13:55, June 1, 2012 (UTC))
Last time I checked Madara thought himself better than an entire generation of shinobi hence his lament on resurrecting Hashirama. As for him being better than the five Kage that's more than debatable given that he would have died several times now if he wasn't an Edo Tensei. Comparing living people to Edo Tensei'd ones is something I believe to be ridiculous given that the latter ones are virtually immortal and have a endless supply of chakra.--Cerez365™(talk) 13:57, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
Being that hes been able to outmatch anyone fighting him, Madara is better than they are. I don't know about died several times because hes able to use Hashirama's cells. He can probably regenerate if he were alive. I doubt he would die so easily. Any less than the five Kage wouldn't have a chance to beat him. Thats been shown. The Fox King(email@example.com (talk) 14:02, June 1, 2012 (UTC))
Regenerate? When has anyone with Hashirama's cells every regenerated? He wouldn't die easily since this wasn't an easy battle but taking on five Kage would be an otherwise impossible task for a living person. Being arrogant and having a valid reason is still arrogance nonetheless, it's not only arrogance when it's unfounded.--Cerez365™(talk) 14:07, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
The point that he even considers himself better than someone else makes him arrogant. It doesn't matter that he might be right or wrong, it's that he actually thinks he is better than other people. If you would please look at the definition of arrogance, it doesn't mention the person being right or wrong, just that they believe, and show, that they are Superior to someone else. Also, I doubt Madara could regenerate just because he has Hashirama's cells in his body. What Hashirama did was medical ninjutsu. Joshbl56 14:10, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
I guess it all depends on how the person thinks. Just thinking your better than someone else is some way is arrogance if its proven. Arrogance in unproven. Hes proven hes better than the five Kage individually. Tobi is able to recreate his limbs and he has Hashirama's cells. The white stuff that comes from his wounds is similar in appearance to that of White Zetsu. Being that Madara didn't age after his fight with Hashirama, he can probably do a lot more with the DNA than Tobi who has aged some. He could probably repair any damage done to him with Hashirama's DNA. The Fox King(firstname.lastname@example.org (talk) 14:15, June 1, 2012 (UTC))
- Wow that's a long shot. The stuff used to recreate Tobi's limb is seemingly from Zetsu but you're assuming that Tobi even has real limbs in the first place. His arms didn't regrow it was recreated. The bit about Madara not ageing is because that's how he died not manipulation of Hashirama's cells. Madara probably died shortly after feigning his death at the Valley of the End. As for Tobi ageing, we don't even know anything about his age or whether or not he ages or has aged. People saw creases when he removed his mask and automatically thought that he was old, it could very well just be lines. Senju had longevity but that doesn't mean you don't age.--Cerez365™(talk) 14:24, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
- You just contradicted yourself. I think you meant to say it's not arrogance if it's proven, which is bull. Arrogance is still arrogance, even if it's proven right or not. the recreation of his limbs is the Edo Tensei, not Hashirama. I also don't remember him having white stuff coming from any part of his body since Edo Tensei people don't bleed or whatever. Who's to say he died old? I will say that gaining Hashirama's DNA probably gave him way more life force or whatever than he had but I wouldn't go as far as saying it stopped him from aging. Joshbl56 14:28, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
@Joshb156 I corrected myself and it isn't if he proves it. Its just telling the truth. @Cerez Being that he knew Nagato's name, he didn't die then, so your wrong on that. We know what Tsunade said regarding Tobi, so we don't know Madara didn't survive so long with that. The Fox King(email@example.com (talk) 14:34, June 1, 2012 (UTC))
- Ah, given that he knew Nagato would mean that he lived to around the second shinobi world war (assuming that he was even alive that is). This is all speculation though and gone way off the point of Madara's arrogance. Arrogance is arrogance even when you have a reason to be.--Cerez365™(talk) 14:41, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
He was still alive then or wouldn't know Nagato and thats proof he wasn't dead. I'll say no more about that. Arrogance is unproven statement and constant better-stating behavior with lack of ability to back it up. hes back up everything hes said and proven to be strong as he thinks he is and more so than any of the fight Kage individually. He is just a loudly proud and confident man, but his ability to prove what he says makes the difference between that and arrogance. The Fox King(firstname.lastname@example.org (talk) 14:46, June 1, 2012 (UTC))
- As others have said, by the very definition of the word, Madara is arrogant. This has nothing to do with his capabilities at all, but rather that he automatically presumes his superiority to others without knowing anything about them. It doesn't matter that some of his claims are proven correct after the fact, as it's the initial unfounded prejudice which makes him arrogant. Blackstar1 (talk) 14:51, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
I have read that and theres a key word missing. Overbearing. He hasn't said a whole lot. Hes not overbearing or anything and has praised others just as much as himself. As for him showing contempt for the weak, thats natural coming from a warrior like him. Hes strong and doesn't like the sight of weakness. Neither do I. I've been a swordsman and taijutsu master my whole life and never lost a fight. But I do despise the sight of weakness as it can usually be avoided. The Fox King(email@example.com (talk) 14:58, June 1, 2012 (UTC))
- There are key differences between actually seeing weakness in someone and instead presuming that they are weak without any evidence to prove so, as well as having pride in your achievements/abilities or simply overconfidence in them. While many times Madara has simply been prideful (the former options), he certainly has been arrogant (the latter options) as well, as in some cases he's assumed his superiority over others or that they are inherently weak, only to have to retract such remarks later when they are proven incorrect. In short, while not always, Madara has unquestionably strayed from mere pride to arrogance. Blackstar1 (talk) 15:33, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
Madara didn't make any statements about being stronger than someone until he proved he was. Such as against Onoki. Both in the past and currently, he has shown to be better before saying he was. When he was first confronted by the five Kage, all he said was that he felt they'd be the best challenge possible, but didn't say he was better than them until he had fought them some. Individually, he can easily kill any one of them. Thats a fact. Hes only been wrong once and admitted it when he was proven wrong. That takes a man. He has shown no real arrogance. The Fox King(firstname.lastname@example.org (talk) 15:42, June 1, 2012 (UTC))
- I'm not going to pursue this any further after this (as this has already gone on long enough), but if you do accept that Madara has made at least one unfounded remark based upon presumption, then regardless of him retracting that later, Madara would have had to have been arrogant in that case to have made said remark in the first place. Now, you can endlessly debate when and where such instances occurred, but as this discussion has proven, the general consensus is that there are enough to warrant him being regarded as arrogant. Blackstar1 (talk) 16:07, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
He didn't call Tsunade a weak Senju at random. He called her that after he saw she wasn't as skilled as her Grandfather despite being his descendant. I won't post more after this, but no that wasn't arrogance. That was more seeing the future and trying to use the past to compare it to what it should be. He wasn't really being arrogant. This discussion is concluded. The Fox King(email@example.com (talk) 16:37, June 1, 2012 (UTC))
- He is not a guy who really judge a book by its cover though. I agree with you TFK. —IndxcvNovelist (talk | contribs | PR | RLS) 17:08, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
What do you mean he doesn't judge a book by its cover? That's exactly what he does. He looked at Tsunade using the basic Mystical Palm Technique and thought "she's not doing anything flashy and she's a Senju so she must be weak i'll kill her" That was beyond the point of random and obsessive. If Madara isn't the epitome of arrogant, I don't know who is any more.--Cerez365™(talk) 18:00, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
- Cerez, we might as well just wrap this conversation up. The majority has said that he is arrogant so I think we got the answer we were looking for. We are not going to be able to change the way s/he thinks about this and Fox King has already said that this was going to be her/his last post. Joshbl56 18:25, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
Madara's body wasn't numbed
Mei said if Madara stopped his jutsu (the Preta Path) then he'd be numbed by their jutsu (the Raiton-Suiton combo). That's the fact I could gather.
I notice Madara's immobility links to: - the fact Gaara's sand isn't typical Ninjutsu - he can't absorb the physical sand. That's the fact.
Another thing, I'm providing an explanation which I think is more probable than what is in the article at the moment I noticed was, Mei was constantly firing her Suiton (aided by A), similar to how Jiraiya constantly fired his Katon at the Preta Path to keep it at bay. Truth is, I dunno what Gaara did. However the panel showed him - along with the other Kage - sending his jutsu in a constant stream. I digress, the overall point: Madara's body was not numb. --Jingo12 (talk) 13:34, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
- Gaara put his sand into the Water Release so it collect around Madara and stop him from absorbing the technique by forcing Madara to absorb the chakra in the sand instead. Madara wasn't able to move while the sand was collecting on him, showing that the electricity did numb him. Joshbl56 13:50, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
- It's true that he did once already but Gaara didn't pack it on like he is doing the second time. Joshbl56 14:10, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
- The sand is also wet so I'm sure he also had a hard time moving. The point is, It seems Madara was unable to move, either from the sand or from becoming numb and that led to him being almost sealed. Joshbl56 14:31, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
- He was almost sealed the tags were in place and all was seemingly going according to plan. Him having a trump card doesn't negate that fact. You're still putting Madara on a pedestal that is way too high.--Cerez365™(talk) 14:41, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
Latest Revision- Ōnoki's flashback
Since I'm not up for the revert war, would other editors mind reading chapter 562, Ōnoki's flashback and this revision and then tell me whether or not what is in the article, was what was happening in the chapter?
My understanding of it was that Hashirama, as Hokage/the village's leader/frontman signed an alliance/treaty with Iwagakure. Madara however, went behind the village's back and pressured Mū and Ōnoki by extension into serving Konoha instead of being equal to it.--Cerez365™(talk) 20:53, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
My problem with that wasn't even that, it was the fact that it implied that Madara knew, or at least had foresight that Mū and Ōnoki would one day be Tsuchikage. I hardly think that's possible for Ōnoki, and Ōnoki wasn't much older in that flashback than he was in his flashback with the First Tsuchikage, meaning there's no way to tell if Mū was a Kage already. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:51, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
- Meh I dunno, I wouldn't say Ōnoki was much older but he looks like he left his pre-teens and entered his teens or something like that. I'm more concerned with establishing why he was there.--Cerez365™(talk) 22:19, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
- Logically, Yes. But its hard to believe that Madara would go so soon — ¤ULTIMATE SUPREME ¤ (T@lk) 14:43, June 14, 2012 (UTC)
There is still a space we can develop on. Maybe this is Kabuto's extra mastery in the technique. Maybe that mastery is separating Madara Uchiha's release from the other Edos. (I know that this is no forum, but I don't know how to begin one and I am not understanding anything on the help page.)184.108.40.206 (talk) 09:33, June 15, 2012 (UTC)
- This wiki is not a place to start these kinds of forums — ¤ULTIMATE SUPREME ¤ (T@lk) 09:38, June 15, 2012 (UTC)
Madara's fourth Mangekyo tech
- Madara said the Rinnegan manifested shortly before his death. There was a decent gap in time between him acquiring the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan and the Rinnegan. Why would he have not used it in his fight against Hashirama? He said birth of a new dōjutsu which would either mean eye technique or more likely, the EMS itself. Rinnegan came later under much different circumstances.--Cerez365™(talk) 14:25, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
- But it's not an orated story. Madara made a point to go back to Konoha and write down all of this on the tablet in the Naka Shrine.--Cerez365™(talk) 15:42, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
- Madara corroborated the story when he was reincarnated though when he assumed where Kabuto had gotten his information from. We do know that Itachi read the tablet and it's not as if Madara went to Konoha after Itachi "defected" and wrote it in. It's been there for a while.--Cerez365™(talk) 23:29, June 17, 2012 (UTC)
I went and read the chapter again and Itachi wasn't refering to the EMS when he talked about an all new eye technique/doujutsu. See it yourselves:
1st: Itachi says on the first page that when Madara acquired Izuna's eyes, the light never left him anymore (thus EMS) and we see Madara's EMS for emphasis;
2nd: then, on the second page, first upper part, we see Madara with the four-eyed mystical creature with 4 Sharingan (implying getting someone else's Mangekyou Sharingan and getting EMS)in the back and Itachi litterally says "Permanent Mangekyou Sharingan/Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan/Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan (EMS)... By changing hosts, the younger brother's eyes found an inextinguishable light!" in that box (it's the secong time EMS is implied, talked about and seen in 2 consecutive pages);
3rd: THEN, AFTER he ALREADY mentionned and shown Madara with EMS, he continues and says: "but THAT'S [Madara getting his transplanting brother Izuna's eyes and them becoming EMS) only HALF of he story, the transplant ALSO gave birth TO A COMPLETLY NEW EYE TECHNIQUE/DOUJUTSU".
Itachi said, litterally, in that order: that light never left Madara's eyes again while showing us the EMS in the genjutsu conversation (that's what EMS is), then clearly said Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan (EMS) while showing us the 4-Sharingan-ed creature while saying that's what Madara got; and after says the he also gain, above and after the EMS, an all new doujutsu/eye technique, something different from EMS(don't know when this new power acquirement happened, though). So Itachi was talking about something else than Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, something taht is neither MS, nor Tsukuyomi, nor Amaterasu, nor Bijuu-control, nor Susano'o, nor EMS... something all new compared to what he already talked about or showed us.
Itachi must have been talking about Rinnegan or a new MS/EMS technique, but not EMS itself, since he already talked about that and said something newer than that also happened. Madara obviously wrote something on the Sacred Tablet and Tobi most likely told him about "Madara", he was also his mentor for sometime after all.
Uchiha clan's betrayal of Madara
I was wondering if it would be alright if we change the background statement of when the Uchiha clan betrayed Madara and rearrange where it was. It would make sense to say that when Hashirama was chosen as Hokage instead of him, Madara tried to contest it and then, after seeing that he wouldn't be able to get the title himself, became fearful that the Senju would begin to oppress the Uchiha and then he tried to rally support with them. Anyway does this sound alright to do? The Fox King(firstname.lastname@example.org (talk) 22:03, June 21, 2012 (UTC))