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Raijin, Kaminari, Raiden, Narukami

They all are the names of the god of lightning[1] in shinto religion (the source of many references in the series), why that is not cited on trivia?--Spcmn (talk) 21:17, December 27, 2011 (UTC)

I don't think all of those would need to be in the trivia; Raiden only. Skitts (talk) 21:30, December 27, 2011 (UTC)

I don't mean to put all four, just 'Raiden', that match with the romanization of the technique. But those are the names of the same entity.--Spcmn (talk) 01:08, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Ah, I misinterpreted what you said. I think it can go in. Skitts (talk) 01:15, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Lightning Cutter

How is this related to lightning cutter? Just because it formed in his hand doesn't mean it's derived from Lightning Cutter. 119.73.75.64 (talk) 10:45, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Lightning cutter is the parent technique. I'm not even sure how or why this is being brought into disrepute.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol14:15, December 28, 2011 (UTC)
Despite it seeming rather obvious to me, I wouldn't be so eager to list it as such. We removed Lightning Cutter as a parent technique to Kakashi's lightning hound in the past because both outcomes were likely. It makes sense being its parent technique, but doesn't necessarily have to be. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:30, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Name

I'm not sure how the name was decided, but isn't it a bit archaic to use "connexion" these days? Skitts (talk) 14:58, December 31, 2011 (UTC)

I brought that up with ShounenSuki. Based on something Seelentau asked about the second kanji in the technique's name, he's considering whether "Lightning Transmission" is a better translation. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:09, December 31, 2011 (UTC)

Shadow Clone or just another user?

As I said before to Cerez, it's obvious that this Jutsu requires another user of the Lightning Blade and not necessarily a Shadow Clone. I don't feel like putting any other info I got stored in my head. I said those once, and repeating what I said is the 10th most thing I hate. 'Sides, it's such a drag...... --X29 16:43, December 6, 2012 (UTC)

Sounds a little speculative to me.— UltimateSupreme ƒ(♫) 17:10 UTC, Thursday, 6 December 2012
I agree, we don't know if there is another user of the Lightning Blade required. WHAT we know is that the technique was used with a shadow clone, so we should go with that.Norleon (talk) 17:21, December 6, 2012 (UTC)
Isn't it obvious that if another user of the Lightning Blade was used instead of a Shadow Clone, it'd be the same thing? After all, what's the difference if one used another person? And doesn't a Shadow Clone count as someone else in this case? --X29 17:48, December 6, 2012 (UTC)
I don't think so, we don't know what happens if two different lightning cutters would be put together (besides, isn't Kakashi the only one to be able to perform the lightning cutter? it's not the chidori, therefore sasuke and kakashi would probably not be able to perform this technique together). And I thought the shadow clone is simply a clone with the exact same techniques and behaviours of the original, which makes him not an independent person. It's just a copy of the original.Norleon (talk) 18:07, December 6, 2012 (UTC)
Oh, and I thought again about what you said about the shadow clone being replaced with another user of the Lightning Blade. By that logic, we could say that everyone who could use the wind element would be able to perform the rasenshuriken alongside naruto, because the third clone just adds the wind element to the original rasengan, because naruto wouldn't be able to do so alone. To be honest, that seems absolutely wrong in my eyes.Norleon (talk) 18:18, December 6, 2012 (UTC)
The Lightning Blade's the Lightning Blade. There's no such thing as different Lightning Blades. And just 'cause Kakashi's the only user of the Jutsu doesn't mean that no one else is able to use it. And the only difference between the Lightning Blade and the Chidori's that the Lightning Blade's more concentrated. And a Shadow Clone can be defined as such, yet there are cases where the Shadow Clone counts as another person. And now that you mention the Rasenshuriken, I think that works out too. I never really thought 'bout it. --X29 18:24, December 6, 2012 (UTC)
Yes, the lightning blade is more concentrated, but that doesn't mean that Sasuke would be able to use it, because we was never seen using it. The lightning blade is Kakashi's "own jutsu", and he is famous for it, even the raikage said something about that when I remember right....when does the shadow clone count as an independent person? and why should there be different cases? The technique is always the same. And you can not just overwrite every single technique that requires shadow clones and suggest that every other character could it use too. There are certain techniques that just one person could perform, but he needs more versions of himself for it.Norleon (talk) 18:35, December 6, 2012 (UTC)
The Lightning Blade's Kakashi's original Jutsu. It's impossible that only he and Sasuke can use it. I'm sure anyone with a lightning affinity who gets training on the Chidori can learn and use the Lightning Blade. And till you show me the spot where A said such a thing and what he said exactly, I can't take it. And I don't recall all of the cases of when the Shadow Clone counts as someone else. I only remember the Jutsu we're talking 'bout and the times when one uses multiple clones of themselves against the same opponent. 'Course, reasonable numbers, like 'bout 20s-30s, not insanely numbers, like hundreds or even thousands. And I'm not saying every Jutsu that we've listed as requires the Shadow Clone Jutsu actually needs more people. I'm just saying that times, like this one, counts as someone else. And you're right, there are Jutsus that require more versions of the user and not more people. Like, the Naruto Uzumaki Barrage techniques. --X29 18:45, December 6, 2012 (UTC)

I get the feeling this will become an endless discussion between us, neither you nor I can accept the other one's theory. I suggest we wait for more people here to tell us their mind and then drop the overruled theory.Norleon (talk) 18:49, December 6, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, no. If anything, the fault here is that while I understand what you're saying, it's just not correct. Norleon, X29 isn't talking about listing other users for this technique because it uses a Shadow Clone, so your Rasenshuriken analogy is flawed but I do get where you're coming from, it's not about listing the users, its about the status of the technique as a standard or collaboration technique, having said that, there are particular variants of Rasengan which are collaborative techniques because another person helped Naruto create them. Having said that, the only reason for the normal Rasengan to even require a Shadow Clone is in the case that the user (Naruto or Konohamaru) aren't skilled enough to perform it using a single body. X29, while I understand the perspective, you're wrong, there is such a thing as different Lightning Blades, at least in the sense you are speaking. If we take this technique as being no different than a collaboration, then like the Double Lariat, the two users would have to be in perfect sync. The difference between Lightning Blade and Chidori isn't just concentration, Lightning Blade is ranked above Chidori, it's a more powerful technique. If nothing else, performing it with a Shadow Clone makes this technique easier to perform, much like Naruto's clone short cut. For all we know it is impossible to sync up Lightning Blade with two separate users, thus why we can't call this collaborative even if another Lightning Blade user existed. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 18:51, December 6, 2012 (UTC)

I have not read all the above at all, but here's my angle: regardless of it requiring or not the shadow clone, that is how Kakashi used it. In the filler where Edo Deidara escaped, Zetsu used Mayfly to plant the explosive clay mines. We know that per se, Mayfly isn't required, as Obito did the same thing using Earth Release: Hiding Like A Mole Technique, but we list it as a parent technique as well, because that was a way the technique was performed. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:08, December 7, 2012 (UTC)

@Norleon
Well, there are a couple more people joining in. Does that make you satisfied?
@Hawkeye
I don't see how the Lightning Blade's more powerful, as both pierce the chest of their targets. And how's it impossible to sync up the Lightning Blade with two people? It's the same Jutsu, so there's barely any difference.
@Omnibender
I didn't notice that, as I stopped watching the anime for a while (not 'cause I don't wanna watch the fillers) and didn't watch the Chikara Arc yet. And I gotta be honest, the Mayfly and the Hidden Mole Jutsu can be considered as parent Jutsus, as they allow the user to move underground, which is what's required to perform the Clay Mines Jutsu. --X29 06:00, December 7, 2012 (UTC)
Well yes, I somehow am, since it's not just the two of us anymore, and it seems both Hawkeye and Omnibender are against listing this jutsu as a collaboration Technique which is my point as well.Norleon (talk) 11:15, December 7, 2012 (UTC)
We've only just started this discussion. --X29 11:24, December 7, 2012 (UTC)
That may be, but I will not say anything new because I think what I've said earlier is enough for this discussion. For what we have here is that four participants of this conversation are against your theory, and three of them brought logical arguments. You said that you went through all of this before with the user cerez, so I read that too and it looked exactly like this discussion, so there are even five members on this wiki against it. If you still think you can convince so many people, then go on, but I won't participate any longer because I don't want to write my earlier posts over and over again.Norleon (talk) 11:40, December 7, 2012 (UTC)

This all sounds like a forum based discussion, as speculative theories shouldn't be on talk pages. But that aside, who else does know the Lightning Blade (NOT Chidori) but Kakashi? Don't go saying Hiruko from the non-canon movie. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 11:59, December 7, 2012 (UTC)

@Norleon
Let's just wait till this discussion's over.
@Yatanogarasu (What kind of name's that? Really hard....)
I wouldn't even think of Hiruko. He's non-canon. At any case, just 'cause only Kakashi knows the Lightning Blade doesn't mean no one else can learn it. --X29 12:10, December 7, 2012 (UTC)

With the aid of the sharingan kakashi was able to advance chidori into the raikiri, for for further proof have you ever seen kakashi used his raikiri without his sharingan closed ?--Naruto6paths (talk) 12:15, December 7, 2012 (UTC)

First time was when he was 'bout to battle Orochimaru to protect Sasuke. However, I don't know what that has to do with this discussion's topic. --X29 12:27, December 7, 2012 (UTC)

I think he means that a Dojutsu like the Sharingan is required in order to use the Raikiri. So Dojutsu (Takes out the Raikage and most other known Lightning users) Lightning Element (Removes the entire Hyuuga Clan so far and Itachi) The ability to move at pace (Takes out Nagato) and motive to sync up with Kakashi (Removes Obito, Madara and Sasuke) That's shrunken the list of people who can perform this technique to... Well, Kakashi. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 15:17, December 7, 2012 (UTC)

The Sharingan isn't required to perform the Lightning Blade. We've seen Kakashi use it without revealing his Sharingan a few times. However if he was using it without his Sharingan all the time, then that'd be very hard, as we all know the Chidori's weakness. The Sharingan's only a supplement. And I know there wouldn't be people who'd wanna perform that Jutsu with Kakashi, but that doesn't mean that they can't perform it with him. 'Course, those people gotta learn the Chidori first. --X29 16:19, December 7, 2012 (UTC)
If no one keeps discussing this with me, then I'll have to assume that I got everyone to agree with me. --X29 06:57, December 14, 2012 (UTC)
No, no one keeps discussing this with you because you were already proved wrong by every other member who took part in this discussion.94.135.247.37 (talk) 10:19, December 14, 2012 (UTC)
Doesn't seem to me that I'm proven wrong just yet. And if no one keeps discussing this with me so we can all agree on something, then I'll have to assume that everyone agrees with me. --X29 15:56, December 14, 2012 (UTC)
Lol, seriously, no. Every single person in the discussion (I did not count them) is against what you just said. And a decision is not made when absolutely everybody agrees to it, mostly, a few have a different view but have to swallow the fact that they are the minority, therefore their opinion is overruled. And in this case, the minority consist of only one single person, and that is you my friend.94.135.247.37 (talk) 16:36, December 14, 2012 (UTC)
So far, everyone who joined speaks against me, yes, but there are others who will speak with me. And the decision isn't ruled by majority. It's ruled by what all agrees to. The minority might still stick to what they stay, but there'll be a time where they'll just have to give up only 'cause this world's dumb and wants to go only with what most people say instead of trying to do something to make both the majority and the minority happy. --X29 16:45, December 14, 2012 (UTC)
I don't think that such a way to make decisions will work on this wiki. I mean, just because you think this jutsu should be labeled as a team-jutsu, it should automatically be labeled as such? and where are the others you talked about who support your opinion? why don't they say anything here?
and what would that be, a way to make both the majority and the minority happy? In this case? there are only two ways this will end. First, it will be changed as a team-jutsu and everybody who can use the raikiri could perform it. Or second, it will stay the way it is now. It doesn't matters which possibility we choose, there will always be people who are against it. Therefore, there can't be such a way who will make both sides happy.94.135.247.37 (talk) 16:54, December 14, 2012 (UTC)
It isn't 'cause I think it should be labelled as such. It's 'cause, logically, in my perspective (currently my own), it's a collaboration Jutsu. And in this case, the best way I can think of currently is to discuss this till both sides agree on how it should be kept as. --X29 17:07, December 14, 2012 (UTC)

but since you don't seem to accept it already, it will become an endless fight between you and the rest here. And where are now the others who also think like you? I would like to ask them to become part of this discussion, so they could bring in more arguments to convince the rest.94.135.247.37 (talk) 17:12, December 14, 2012 (UTC)

Currently, I don't accept. If this discussion's continued, I might be convinced. You never know. And when I said that there are others who share my perspective in this, I meant others 'round the world. There are over four billion souls out there. There has to be at least a few thousands who share my perspective. --X29 17:18, December 14, 2012 (UTC)
Hell yeah, but if none of these few thousands people are on this wiki to support you, it changes absolutely nothing. I could say as well "I bet there are tons of people who would be against your opinion", but this would not lead us everywhere. So, what exactly should I do to convince you? To be honest, I could just copy everthing that's written above, but I guess it would not change nothing. But I don't know what else you want to hear. Seriously, I don't know what to do anymore.94.135.247.37 (talk) 17:26, December 14, 2012 (UTC)
It's true that there are tons who disagree with me, among them you and the other users above. And what you should do is discuss this thing with me. Right now, I guess you could just add in bits you have. I don't really know. --X29 17:32, December 14, 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, but see, there is nothing more I could say, my complete opinion regarding this topic was already stated by the other users above. So I don't have anything new I could bring in here. So I can't help to end this discussion. And personally, I think that all the arguments above should convince anybody already. If this is not the case with you, I can't help you. No offence, I mean it how I say it, I can't think of a way that could help you further here.94.135.247.37 (talk) 17:38, December 14, 2012 (UTC)
I meant like reply to my last replies to them, which they still didn't reply to. --X29 17:46, December 14, 2012 (UTC)

Oh for the love of god. The reason no one else is discussing this with you X29, is because I'm pretty sure all of us are sick of hearing it. You can sit and think you've not been proven wrong all you like, but you've not been proven right either. Kakashi performed the technique with a shadow clone. Since a technique using a shadow clone isn't collaborative, cause if it was, Naruto's list of collab techniques would go on forever, it is just going to be listed as a regular ninjutsu with Shadow Clone and Lightning Cutter as parent techniques. As for how a decision is ruled, around here, it is neither by majority or consensus, but by what is verifiable through the media, nothing more and as it stands, we don't have that. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 18:02, December 14, 2012 (UTC)

Being lazy, I guess? And there are Jutsus that Naruto use that are technically collaboration Jutsus, yes, but there are others that can be listed as using Shadow Clones instead, such as the Naruto Uzumaki Barrage. And if no one keeps discussing this with me, then I'll just have to assume that they all agree with me. There's also a saying here: "Silence is the sign of agreement". So.... yeah. --X29 03:15, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
For gods sake, NO! We ARE discussing this with you, I think what hawkeye said just sums it up perfectly. There is no proof that you are wrong but there is also no proof that you are right! Therefore, we have to take what we can see in the picture when kakashi uses the technique until Kishimoto brings out the next official data book or another official form of statement towards this technique. But as I said, until then we have to go with what we can see, and what we can see is that Kakashi uses this technique with a shadow clone, AND NOTHING MORE.94.135.247.37 (talk) 11:06, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
And in doing so, you'd be ignorant, forget basic logic and ignore what's pretty much obvious. --X29 03:16, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
No, apparently, it is only obvious for you. And the ignorant one would be you when you say that you automatically won this discussion when nobody else convinces you, even though a lot of people tried it before. You seem to expect some kind of master argument that will automatically convince you right away, but everything regarding this topic was already said, therefore it seems your opinion will not change. But this is not a proof that you've won this discussion at all.94.135.247.37 (talk) 10:59, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

Guys you need to stop this discussion, it is absolutely pointless. Even if we aren't being trolled by this discussion, take it that the majority is against your argument X29 and let it at that. This is ridiculous enough as it is.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 14:16, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

@Anonymous user
I'm saying that I'll have to assume that everybody agrees with me by not continuing the discussion, not that I think I 'won' if no one manages to convince me. Pay attention to what people says. And I'm not expecting something like that. I'm expecting either I manage to convince people or they manage to convince me. And my opinion might change if somebody keeps this discussion. If no one does, then I'll have to assume that everybody agrees with me.
@Cerez
You call it pointless and ridiculous, I call it very much needed. And the hell with majority. This isn't the way it's supposed to work. We're supposed to do a discussion till each side agrees to something. --X29 02:43, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
Then why don't we all just agree to disagree? I mean X29 rasises valid points but it's still just speculation. I vote that we just keep the article as it is now and when the next databook comes out we see who's right. And if that's not good enough for you, then why don't we add in the trivia section the "it's possible that this technique can be used with two different users if they can properly sync up" or something like that?71.71.58.231 (talk) 02:56, December 17, 2012 (UTC) Yhwach
This isn't speculation. It's simple, basic logic. That's why it can't be set in the trivia. 'Sides, people will be all like "Ridiculous trivia" if I add it instead of finishing this discussion. --X29 03:05, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
I'm sure they'd prefer to have the trivia thing rather than continuing on this endless discussion with you here.71.71.58.231 (talk) 03:11, December 17, 2012 (UTC) Yhwach
YOU of all people want to tell me to pay attention to others? To be honest, screw this conversation, I get the feeling it was all done to troll us, since you don't move just a single slightest bit, and keep repeating your stuff over and over again. But what pisses me off the most is your statement "If no one does, then I'll have to assume that everybody agrees with me." because this is the most sensless crap I've ever read in m life. Go ahead and keep running in circles here, I think I've got better things to do that to waste my time arguing with a wall.94.135.247.37 (talk) 10:25, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

Apparently you guys don't get it... Every technique that uses a clone can be done by someone else who knows how to use the technique/ the mechanics behind it. By X29's logic then we should go around and change all of those techniques. That does not mean that we're going to go around and remove clones as part of the technique and then mention that it is possible for these techniques to be sans the clone, that's not how this place works. He uses a clone, clones are added to the technique. Frankly if you guys want you can discuss this until kingdom comes but I can guarantee you that this discussion will never play a part in changing anything on this article.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 11:54, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

@First Anonymous user
This discussion doesn't seem endless just yet.
@Second Anonymous user
Language, and if I was trolling, you wouldn't see me having a user here. And I didn't move yet. And you call it senseless, I call it understandable and very much sensible.
@Cerez
Obviously, you don't get it. Not every Jutsu that uses a clone can be done by someone else, such as the Naruto Uzumaki Barrage. But there are some others, such as the Lightning Transmission here, that doesn't require a clone necessarily. And the way this place works is that we write down facts. Logic brings facts, so that's why I'm doing this discussion. --X29 03:22, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
Wow man, read this whole discussion. Being annoying and rewording the stuff you said will not let you "win". Annoying the hell out of everyone won't prove you are right. Put this ridiculous discussion to rest as no one has sided with you and your ridiculous thought that one using a technique with their clone is a collaboration. And two additional things, your extensive use or 'course and 'cause gets annoying to read constantly when you're too lazy to type them fully and "pisses"and "crap" aren't that bad of words, nothing PG-13 or R rated and thinking that way is childish and makes you not taken seriously.--OmegaRasengan (talk) 04:01, December 18, 2012 (UTC)

What are you talking about X29? If 5 people work with Naruto in perfect sync they can use that technique. No one is saying that the technique couldn't be used by Kakashi and someone who learns how to use the technique, but the fact of the matter is that we're supposed to record information as it is presented to us, not any other way. Logic has very little to no space on this wikia.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 05:54, December 18, 2012 (UTC)

Its one of those situations where we say:
We won't mention it until we actually see it happen. UltimateSupreme ƒ(♫) 07:10 UTC, Tuesday, 18 December 2012

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