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Can we get some definite facts on what happened in the series to determine by concensus how we should treat Jiraiyas death, or unconfirmed death. Till then I think I'll edit it out just in case. It's a real bad fake spoiler if we say he's dead before deciding that. So it'll be a good locked state while we get a decision. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Jan 5, 2008 @ 08:42 (UTC)
- Okay. I'll start placing facts on the table: Jiraiya fell into some sort of body of water that's really deep. He's seriously wounded, and inscribed a message to Tsunade on Papa Frog. We don't know what the message says. Pein says that Jiraiya is dead, but we don't see the perverted sannin's dead body. While falling into the abyss, Jiraiya gives the book he had in mind a name: The Tale of Naruto Uzumaki. I would treat this as a "presumed deceased". --Dubtiger 21:17, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Hmmm... ok... ^_^ Presumed deceased, a compromise... Everyone's been either removing notes on death, or adding that he was deceased. Ok, good compromise... Till someone finds some other helpful info we'll use (presumed deceased) as his Part II status. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Jan 6, 2008 @ 03:10 (UTC)
To bring up to date: Both Leafninja and Kishimoto have pretty much states Jiraiya's dead-interview at Jump Festa 2008 —This unsigned comment was made by [[User:|]] ([[User talk:|talk]] • contribs) .
Hum.... We see Jiraiya's field of vision slowly fading, Jiraiya coughing up a whole lot of blood, and Jiraiya not caring if he lived or died in his last moments... we see that Jiraiya has become one with God in a sense, planning his next book even though he's bound to die. It's like he plans to watch Naruto live his life in heaven, and feeling happy about that. I don't think Gama-sennin could have survived even if he didn't drown-Ma and Pa Toad were told by Jiraiya that he was going to die anyway, so they abandoned him. No medic-nin would be around to heal Jiraiya, lest they call on the anger of what they describe as an entity. Jiraiya wouldn't have the time to flee to Konoha in that state-he would die before he got to the border. Madara uchiha99 16:26, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Someone noted that Kishimoto confirmed that Jiraiya has died. If someone has this information can they come up with a link or some sort of reference in the page. Unless we have a strong reference stating that he is dead, then we can't change presumed deceased to deceased. This note is there because there are people on both sides saying he's dead, and those saying he's not dead... Because there are two sides the neutral standpoint is taken and we only presume it without stating anything as a fact.
So if you have a reference, please provide it so that we can end this with a ref tag. If you don't then it'll have to stay as presumed to be neutral, and perhaps be protected if edit wars over it continue. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Mar 1, 2008 @ 05:36 (UTC)
- There was word at Wikipedia that someone had a blog interview of a standing interview that confirmed it. However because it was on a blog which is slightly less credible than Wikipedia itself, it wasn't considered valid.--TheUltimate3 21:17, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
"Despite his perversion, Jiraiya is a Kage-level ninja." Man, this is amazingly wrong. A kage is the strongest ninja in the village. This means if a village only has a genin left as a ninja, he can be a Kage in case no one wins a battle against him.
I think that this should be changed to "strongest ninja on the village"...
Not to mention that if he is presumed deceased, all verbs must be changed to past :S
- Kage-level is a level. It's even used in the anime to refer to the battle between the Hokage and Orochimaru, and Orochimaru isn't a Kage. The sannin are basically Kage level ninja. But no just because Jiraiya is presumed deceased doesn't change the way the page is written. Readers could be reading from a point of view at any point in the story at all, so we write Abilities, Background, etc... In a present/neutral tense, and Part in the Story which is in-universe, in-event is always written in past-tense no matter what the status of the character is. It's the best way to keep articles valid for all groups of readers. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Mar 29, 2008 @ 23:44 (UTC)
"Jiraiya's reputation is so great that one of Akatsuki's strongest members, Itachi Uchiha comments that if he and Jiraiya were to fight , he and Jiraiya would both have died, which also suggest that Jiraiya is stronger than Orochimaru, as Itachi is said to be able to kill Orochimaru, this is further evidenced when he fought Orochimaru when he was only at 30% of his full abilities (due to being drugged by Tsunade) and he managed to fight him on even grounds (though Orochimaru couldn't use his arms at the time). Kisame even states in this instance that Jiraiya's skills far outmatch his own."
Not only is this horribly worded, but terribly misleading. It's true that Itachi and Kisame expressed their doubts about fighting Jiraiya based on what they knew of him at the time, but after actually meeting, Kisame doesn't understand why they had to retreat at all.
"Why did we have to retreat...? ...With your power..."
Itachi's explanation is simply that he'd already weakened himself too much, and had to find somewhere to rest. Afterwards, Jiraiya himself explains that it took a huge effort, even for him, just to distance them from Naruto.
The second part doesn't even have any basis in canon. Jiraiya was at 30% strength when fighting Orochimaru? He was weaker, but we are never told this. Where is an exact measurement coming from, honestly? This is just nonsense that someone came up with on their own with absolutely no factual basis. In fact, Orochimaru is shown stronger than base Jiraiya during that encounter. After quickly outfighting him, Orochimaru states the following:
"Even with us both having handicaps, it's no contest...give it up."
The keywords here being, "even with". I'll corroborate that with a completely different translation as well.
"Although we're mutually handicapped, there is still a gap between you and me...give up."
That fight shows quite the opposite of what was suggested - Jiraiya's chances against Itachi are slim to none, if he can't beat Orochimaru, who is far weaker than Itachi himself.
I'm taking the liberty of removing this part myself. The first part however, I'd like to leave open to discussion first. I believe it's misleading to mention Itachi and Kisame's doubts about Jiraiya out of context, whether we say it's because of his reputation or otherwise - it gives the impression that he IS stronger, but in reality, that's not all there is to it. I'm interested in hearing someone else's thoughts on the matter. --~Mizukage~ 20:34, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
- Once a section hits the word "evidence", "assumed", or "it can be reasoned" it's ok to remove it. Those are key words that signal that a section was based on assumptions which would be considered speculation and have no basis being on the wiki. We only list the facts, and let the reader come up with the assumptions themselves. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Oct 3, 2008 @ 20:39 (UTC)
Well, the thing is, it didn't, at least in regard to this part - "Jiraiya's reputation is so great that one of Akatsuki's strongest members, Itachi Uchiha comments that if he and Jiraiya were to fight, he and Jiraiya would both have died". This did happen, but mentioning it without touching upon the fact that we're told otherwise later is misleading. Should it be carefully re-written, or removed? That's what I'm debating with myself over. I'm gonna try for a re-write, though it won't bother me if it's ommited entirely either. --~Mizukage~ 00:19, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Something else I've considered - how relevant is it right now, that Pain said he would have lost, if Jiraiya knew his secret? We're dealing with ifs here. For all we know, Pain's secret could be an off button. --~Mizukage~ 20:04, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm still debating who's stronger as well, but right now I stand by my belief that Jiraiya>Itachi, but I don't think the gap is that wide. Jiraiya's probably only stronger than Itachi when he uses Sage Mode, since he said he had trouble keeping Itachi away from Naruto when he was in human form. Besides, Mizukage, what Kisame said after he and Itachi ran away was "Why must we retreat. You could've..." This could mean Kisame was questioning why Itachi didn't get Naruto the instant they came to his front door. And besides, the question on whether or not Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru is still open to debate. Do you realize that when Orochimaru said Itachi was stronger than him, he had his arms sealed at the time? Do you ever remember him saying it after he got his arms back? And besides, do you realize that an Itachi with 25% of Itachi's power got beaten by Kakashi without even using his Mangekyou Sharingan and Naruto before his training, and he told Naruto he couldn't use his Mangekyou Sharingan at the moment? That must mean that Itachi's Mangekyou increases his power by 4X. And do you remember when Kakashi threatened to kill Orochimaru if Orochimaru came closer to Sasuke, he freaked out and thought he was crazy for even thinking of taking on Orochimaru, yet he had enough guts to fight Itachi? -- User: QF744 21:22, 10 October 2008 (CTS)
I agree - we have to discuss if Itachi is realy stronger than Orochimaru - we only saw how their confrontation ended - it is possible that Orochimaru was weakened by stoped transemigration and unable to defend himself atm. Also we have to remember that after fighting Third Hokage Orochimaru was weakened ALL the time in the series, arms sealed and later weaker body left him unable to use 100% of his powers. When he used much of his power the body was failing - we saw this when Oro was fighting 4-tails Naruto. Orochimaru wouldn't find the battle so entertaining if he considered it to be dangerous? If it wasn't Naruto but Itachi fighting Orochimaru the moment Oro's body failed would be certainly used by someone as experienced as Itachi to kill Orochimaru. Sorry if I messed up sentences - it was a long day...
You guys have made a number of mistakes and oversights.
First of all, what I have in the Viz translation is "Why did we have to retreat...? ...With your power...", and at that time, Itachi had already used the Mangekyo Sharingan twice not counting a third time for escape - in fact, Kisame's the one who warned him about it, but he still saw fit to question their escape on the basis of Itachi's power.
Next, even if it did read "Why did we retreat...? ...You should have been able to...", it doesn't make sense to think that they could capture Naruto in that situation without fighting Jiraiya.
Regarding Orochimaru, he was clearly not comparing Itachi to his current state. To begin with, that would have been pointless, because he did not plan to remain in that state - and yet, he called roping in Itachi a hopeless dream, because he was stronger. Furthermore, Orochimaru says that this is the reason he had left Akatsuki - which means that he was weaker than Itachi before he was ever weakened.
Further still, while in his second host, Orochimaru tells Sandaime that once he dies, he will obtain an even stronger host - Sasuke. Orochimaru did possess Sasuke, only Sasuke was able to reverse the jutsu. The only difference between Post-Kinjutsu Sasuke and what Orochimaru had in mind is who is in control - in both cases, it's Sasuke's body with Orochimaru inside. Itachi was stronger than Post-Fushi Tensei Sasuke in a severely weakened state, pulling his punches all the while. It's inevitable that he was stronger than a full power Orochimaru, considering he's stronger than someone stronger than that.
It's important to remember that this is fiction, not reality, and must in some ways be judged by different standards. Speculating about what happened between Itachi and Orochimaru outside of what we saw of their confrontation is pointless. There is no such thing as voluntary action without motive, and that applies to what you write and create in art. What we were shown gives the impression of Orochimaru being sorely outclassed. Considering we are shown nothing outside of that, it's safe to say that that's exactly the impression we were supposed to get. Make no mistake - if it was not shown or expressed within the manga or by Kishimoto through some means, it does not at present have any canonical existence.
Kakashi fought a 30% clone of Itachi along with Naruto, who was able to help thanks to the support of other team members, and in addition Itachi wasn't able to activate the Mangekyo Sharingan. Itachi just smiled when his Shouten was taken out, and we now know that he didn't actually want to kill any of them or capture Naruto. There's not much we can say about this fight other than "Itachi is still stronger than them".
He wasn't 70% weaker because of the Mangekyo Sharingan. The clones themselves were 30% weaker, both for Itachi and Kisame. Kisame explains that their strength and available jutsu are proportionally limited by the amount of chakra donated, which was 30%. The Shoutens were 70% weaker in general and were limited in the techniques they could use in addition to that.
Kakashi challenged Orochimaru, then was struck with fear. Kakashi confronted Itachi, then was struck with panic. Not all that different, and certainly too speculative a case to override all other objective observations. In Itachi's case, at least Kakashi had back-up.
So, I think it's more than safe to include what I had written there, and slap on a reference. --~Mizukage~ 20:46, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Many feats that Jiraiya has performed strongly suggest that he far outclasses not only the remaining two Sannin but also Itachi while in his Sage Mode.
- he commands the most powerful two ninjutsu shown so far (Utlimate Rasengan and Deep Fryer), and the fastest contacting and lethal one (hair needle barrage). - aided by the elder toads, he is capable of a more powerful genjutsu than Tsukuyomi. - he was able to send a huge bull flying with a mere punch - even Tsunade didn't send Orochimaru flying as far and with such a force as Jiraiya did that bull. And imagine that a normal bull weighs over a tonne, so how much would a giant, summoned bull weigh? It's safe to say that he's at least as strong as Tsunade. - he was able to cover a sick distance in as short time as a few seconds on numerous occasions while fighting Pain. His speed must be likewise of a chakra-gates-opened Guy or Lee. - http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=417442 - read this stuff, then say if you agree with me.
I just wonder if we could add "the most powerful of the Sannin" here and there...
- Despite whatever evidence you have, this is all complete speculation and has no business being in the article. "the most powerful of the Sannin" has no business being inside the article unless a canon character or creator of the series outright says that sentence. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Nov 3, 2008 @ 18:58 (UTC)
First of all, you're just relying on appearance - Chou Odama Rasengan and Senpou Goemon are the most powerful ninjutsu? This was never stated. In fact, it is at odds with what we are told - it is stated that Amaterasu was the most powerful offensive ninjutsu. The song genjutsu was stronger than Tsukuyomi? Not only was this never stated, but it is also at odds with what we are told - it was stated that Tsukuyomi was the strongest genjutsu. Sennin Mode Jiraiya was stronger than Tsunade? Jiraiya can knock around giant animals. Tsunade can swing aroung bigger swords. However, what it all comes down to is that both of them are really strong and can knock/swing around really big things - trying to form a specific comparison based on this is not only purely speculative, but without foundation. From an objective standpoint, your argument is logically fallacious - it's called proof by assertion.
What I've done is simply noted that Itachi and Kisame did take great caution at first, even regardless of how their abilities turned out to actually compare - we're told that in that situation, Itachi's power made retreat seem pointless, and we're told that Itachi was weakened at the time - so in that case, it was regardless of how their abilities actually compared. What I've written was entirely accurate. This whole debate over Itachi vs. Sennin Mode Jiraiya is pointless to the article. --~Mizukage~ 01:05, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Would it be wiser to trust statements from the past or what we see with our own eyes to confirm things? You talk like a judger, not a perceiver. You see things but stick only to that what you see, not to that what it implicates. If Odama Rasengan made a crater in the earth, don't you think that a Rasengan 20x bigger would've made so much more rumble? --~Xfing~
- That could also be considered an "assumption", you know how the phrase goes for that. Stating things that are derived from indirect sources is speculation, and not something that belongs on the wiki. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Nov 14, 2008 @ 02:53 (UTC)
It's irrelevant whether Chou Oudama Rasengan is more powerful than Oudama Rasengan - that's the obvious implication, hence the "Chou", but that doesn't give us any comparison to other ninjutsu ranked at or above the level of Oudama Rasengan (A rank). There is presently no objective way to compare them, unless they were specifically compared to Rasengan or Oudama Rasengan. For example, Chidori was stated to be weaker than Rasengan, so one could say that Chidori was weaker than Chou Oudama Rasengan. But if you just take two techniques that have never been given any form of comparison and state that one is stronger than the other, that is entirely speculative - certainly not encyclopedic. Second, the assertion that Jiraiya had displayed the most powerful ninjutsu in the series is simply false - it was stated that Amaterasu was the most powerful offensive ninjutsu.
Next, to argue that one character is stronger than the other simply because they have displayed a stronger technique would be non-sequitur in the first place. Individual techniques don't determine overall power.
And no, you can't downplay uncontested statements in order to come to your own conclusions. Well, you can, but not justified in reason. Nothing is ever done without motive. So what was the author's motive in writing it, if it were just to be blown off? If it weren't meant to be taken seriously, then it wouldn't have been written as if it were serious. Giving us the information under the assumption that it won't matter to us defeats the purpose of giving us the information. We haven't been shown or told anything that necessitates its falsehood, or otherwise directly questions its accuracy, therefore we are left without canon basis to assume its falsehood. --~Mizukage~ 21:11, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Like it or not, dudes, but my speculation turned out to be correct. Hermit Mode bestows strength on Tsunade's tier. Proof? Sakura smashed up the puppet Sasori in one punch, and Hermit Mode Naruto smashed up Pain's Asura Path in a single punch too. (not to mention that Asura has metallic parts and Sasori was wooden). Hermit Mode advances power to levels comparable with Tsunade's fabulous brute strength. I sincerely hope that this explicit proof (chapter 430 up your ass) shows you, that sometimes things ARE what they seem to be (if seeing a humongous ox being smashed through a wall by Jiraiya wasn't enough).
I am also making an attempt at opening your eyes to reading manga by the pictures, not only by the texts in the bubbles. It has been stated that Amaterasu be the most powerful Ninjutsu technique. Yet in chapter 429 we have seen that Pain's Shinra Tensei actually RAZED the Hidden Leaf Village. Razed it whole. Now doesn't that fact seem to hold at least as much value as a statement that "that technique is the most powerful, period"? --~Xfing~
EDIT: Sorry guys, that was not a punch, that was a Rasengan. My former points are hereby invalidated. Sorry for the confusion --~Xfing~