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decision time

Continuing here from the super long topic at Senninka's page. So can we just list Jugo as a user of Sage Mode or merge the two and call it a day?--Elveonora (talk) 11:48, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

...So Jugo is a sage now?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:43, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
...No. Only those who've mastered the Sage Mode (either through Naruto-like training or Kabuto-like means) are sages. Those who can knead Senchakra, but can't enter Sage Mode because they don't have the right body or loose control over themselves, aren't sages. Seelentau 愛 12:50, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
I also say no. Isn't a Sage someone who was taught Senjutsu or perhaps trained it by himself even? Other than having Senjutsu chakra, Jugo doesn't know any "Sage Technique:" or "Sage Art:" not to mention he doesn't even know how to absorb natural energy since his body does it for him. He is as much of a Sage as Curse Mark wielders are, save the fact he manipulates the Senjutsu chakra himself to use Sage Transformation, which is a Sage Mode--Elveonora (talk) 12:54, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
@Seel, I don't think it's about mastery, otherwise Jiraiya wouldn't be a Sage.--Elveonora (talk) 12:55, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
Mastery as in "opposed to whatever Jugo's and Orochimaru's problem is", not in "complete and perfect control". Sage Transformation can be used to enter Sage Mode, yes. This means, we have three ST user: Kabuto, Jugo (+ clan) and Obito (somewhat unclear), but only Kabuto can also use Sage Mode. Seelentau 愛 13:01, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

Since Sage Transformation is an extension of Sage Mode, that in my opinion is enough to list him as a user. For status, short story is, Jugo can mold Senjutsu chakra himself. It's arguable if that is enough to classify him as a Sage--Elveonora (talk) 13:04, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, for some reason you consider only those who perfectly balance Senjutsu chakra as true Sage Mode users. But that isn't a requirement, otherwise Jiraiya again wouldn't be a user--Elveonora (talk) 13:05, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
Sage Transformation is what the special bodies do to Jugo and his kin (as stated by Jugo). If one has gained control over his body at the Ryuchido (as stated by Kabuto), he can use the Sage Transformation to enter Sage Mode (as stated by Kabuto). Kabuto can do so, Jugo can't. Kabuto is a sage, Jugo is not.
It isn't a requirement, yes. But I never stated that it is. Of course he's a sage. Seelentau 愛 13:10, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

Again, we consider Jiraiya a user of Sage Mode. Jugo isn't any different from him, he can create Senjutsu chakra but can't completely balance it, therefore when he uses Sage Transformation he is by all means using Incomplete Sage Mode as well--Elveonora (talk) 13:14, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

He is different from Jiraiya in terms of how he absorbs natural energy. Really, I think if it wasn't for Jūgo's body, he'd be an imperfect sage, too. But there's the difference between accessing sage mode through normal means, like Naruto and Jiraiya do, and accessing it through a modified body, like Jugo and Kabuto do. Seelentau 愛 13:20, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
How they absorb natural energies is a determining factor if they are of Sage status or not, not if they are using the mode itself. Jugo still has to mold Senjutsu chakra and doing so makes him enter Sage Mode, or rather Sage Transformation hence special bodily fluids. By the same logic, each time Shima&Fukasaku were absorbing natural energy for Jiraiya, he wasn't in those instances user of Sage Mode. Molding and manipulating Senjutsu chakra = Sage Mode, it's not about knowing how to absorb natural energy, but that's how I see it--Elveonora (talk) 13:52, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
"Molding and manipulating Senjutsu chakra = Sage Mode" - and here's the problem. According to the databooks, even though Fukasaku and Shima were absorbing natural energy and kneading senchakra, they aren't users of the sage mode. This makes me think that "Molding and manipulating Senjutsu chakra =/= Sage Mode", which is furthermore supported by the fact that Sage Mode is a Senjutsu, but not every Senjutsu has Sage Mode as a parent technique. Seelentau 愛 14:00, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
I am completely confused.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 14:14, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, I'm aware that databooks don't list Fukasaku and Shima as Sage Mode users, but we do. The books are not always correct, you know this. There's manga evidence that molding Senjutsu chakra = Sage Mode as I mentioned the toad oil. The moment Naruto's body started absorbing natural energy, he started gaining toad characteristics. He didn't have to say "ACTIVATE!" and perform a hand sign. For "not every Senjutsu has Sage Mode as a parent" We are yet to see anyone use Senjutsu outside of Sage Mode--Elveonora (talk) 14:21, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

"Simant asked me for my input in this discussion. As explained in chapter 418 and in the third databook, Sage Mode is the state where one has moulded senjutsu chakra inside oneself. The state where one can use senjutsu and has had their body vitalised by the senjutsu chakra. Using this definition, both Fukasaku and Shima are capable of using Sage Mode, as they have clearly shown the ability to use senjutsu. --ShounenSuki"--Elveonora (talk) 14:24, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

Suki-senpai has my utmost respect, you all know that. But if we use an old definition on information that was provided after the definition was established, we can only lose. Things change. Information changes. Facts change. Please don't measure new things by old standards. Seelentau 愛 14:37, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
Since when did anything change? I must have missed that. I'm positive we haven't been given anything new in that regard since "old definition on information" nor have we seen it done. When Naruto absorbs natural energy and then balances it with his physical and spiritual energies, thus molding senjutsu chakra, he enters Sage Mode, no hand seal done or anything. That's why I'm not sure why you come to the conclusion that molding Senjutsu chakra isn't equivalent of Sage Mode, other than Shima and Fukasaku not being credited in databook, which might be an error--Elveonora (talk) 14:43, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

Well, whatever comes from this topic is that either we list Jugo as a user or remove Shima, Fukasaku and Gamakichi, let the vote begin--Elveonora (talk) 14:48, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

Can't we just add the fact and remove everything else? :( Seelentau 愛 15:02, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

Well, let's look at the thing objectively. Both manga and databooks say that molding Senjutsu chakra activates Sage Mode, yet toads aren't listed for whatever reason. Logical conclusions:

  1. it's an error that they aren't listed
  2. just molding Senjutsu chakra doesn't activate Sage Mode

Looking at the fact that the definition fits with what the toads do means it's more likely to be an error OR.... and there's where facts stop, we could speculate that toads are in Senjutsu-enhanced state constantly and don't have to use mode, since they are "nature" but that's a speculation and in fact contradicts the fact they also have to gather natural energy to mold senjutsu chakra. Therefore it's an error, the safest route, just like Zabuza's age is an error, yet some yourself included speculate that the young boy who killed his classmate couldn't have been Zabuza rather than admitting calculation error on Kishi's part. That's my input, let's wait for others.--Elveonora (talk) 15:13, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

Unless there has been any new information revealed in the manga, after Shounen gave the definition, which I don't think there was; I would rather go with the former (i.e. Add Jūgo).--~UltimateSupreme 15:17, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
The thing is, Suki-senpai's words and his translation don't match. Check it. Seelentau 愛 15:23, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
They actually do, it says that using Senjutsu chakra increases power of ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu and as you know that's what Sage Mode is and the translation is about.--Elveonora (talk) 15:54, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

Regarding the toad issue, Fukasaku definitely entered an empowered state, but is it not possible it is only called Sage Mode when humans do it, hence the databook only listing Jiraiya? The toads don't change, after all, so it may not be considered a "mode" for them.--BeyondRed (talk) 16:28, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

No, they do not. The only sentence in the databook about the Sage Mode is "The form Jiraiya showed to use Senjutsu during his decisive battle with Pain.". Everything else is about Senjutsu. If Sage Mode and Senjutsu were one and the same, the very first sentence wouldn't discern between the form (Sage Mode) and Senjutsu. So no, according to the databook, Sage Mode and Senjutsu are two different things, with Sage Mode being a Senjutsu, of course. Also, Ma and Pa are not user of the Sage Mode, that was never stated anywhere and should not be added in the article, since it's obviously not correct. Seelentau 愛 16:58, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

It pretty much boils down to interpretation, I don't read it as suggesting any differentiation. It just says Sage Mode is Senjutsu. And "showed to use senjutsu" can actually be interpreted as Senjutsu use requiring Sage Mode activated--Elveonora (talk) 17:47, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

Somehow, it always comes down to interpretation when I discuss with you. But it's not our job to interpret. Please show me a source for Senjutsu = Sage Mode, I can't remember where that was stated. Seelentau 愛 17:56, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

Someone mind giving us lost and thoroughly confused people done bullet points? --Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 18:59, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

How else can "The form Jiraiya showed to use Senjutsu during his decisive battle with Pain" be interpreted other than:

  • the form uses senjutsu
  • or the form is required to use senjutsu

Where do you get the vibe that using Senjutsu chakra =/= Sage Mode? @Cerez, Seelentau stating that toads don't use Sage Mode because using Senjutsu isn't synonymous with using Sage Mode--Elveonora (talk) 19:06, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't matter where I get the vibes from. I need a proof that what you say is true. Nothing else. Seelentau 愛 19:29, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
...Toad's don't use Sage Mode. Senjutsu =/= Sage Mode. If it did, Orochimaru would be a user of Sage Mode... and he isn't. Vibes, interpretations, all that nonsense has nothing to do with it. The cold hard facts don't support it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 22:19, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, it goes both ways. I would like some proof as well. Everything we have been told what Sage Mode is was nothing but molding Senjutsu chakra. There's no evidence for otherwise, never was Sage Mode somehow activated. People just absorb natural energy, mold senjutsu chakra and they enter Sage Mode as a consequence of that, no hand seals or anything. Why Shima and Fukasaku weren't listed is for an other topic entirely. @TFF, well mister, we list them as users of Sage Mode for half a decade and suddenly "the cold hard facts don't support it" that's bizarre. Not sure why you bring Orochimaru, since has nothing to do with it. Orochimaru being capable of using Senjutsu means he knows how to absorb natural energy and mold Senjutsu chakra. The reason why he can't enter Sage Mode we were told is because he hasn't found a host body strong enough to wield it, so by all means and purposes, he is a user of Sage Mode, people like someone are just ignorant.--Elveonora (talk) 01:37, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

We're not an authority on anything. If Naruto was listed a user of Chidori on here for years, it makes it just as much bullcrap now as the day it was listed. Animals don't use Sage Mode. They use senjutsu, but again, Senjutsu =/= Sage Mode. I find it hard to believe Kishimoto would write an entry on Sage Mode and only list Jiraiya — when both Fukasaku and Shima had used Senjutsu in the same series of chapters — just for shits and giggles. As Seel said, Sage Mode is a type of Senjutsu, but the terms are not synonymous. And Elve, you really shouldn't be calling people ignorant when your usual rebuttal to arguments are founded, in your own words, in your "interpretation" of what is said or done, instead of what actually happened or was said. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 01:46, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

So why don't you remove them, since you "know" we are wrong? And it's interesting that despite your apparent knowledge of the mistake you hadn't cared to correct it until now that Seelentau said so. No offense, but borrowing head into one's backside isn't nice. But I guess go on, fix it. Wait, I guess you think it's not just a one man's decision, or two's to suddenly get rid of something that's been for many years considered by the majority to be a fact. By what difference would opinion of others even make since you two "know" it's wrong? So do you even want to argue about this, or are your minds already made up or something? Also you sound so sure of yourself Foxie with "animals don't use Sage Mode" ... why wouldn't they? Shima and Fukasaku are Sages and it's called Sage Mode, not Animal Mode. The databooks aren't without errors and yes, even Kishi's memory isn't eternal. Pain was drawn with Sharingan once. But how could Kishimoto make such a mistake, did he forget the difference between the two or just human factor happened and he unknowingly switched them in his subconsciousness while he was tired? Zabuza's age isn't fixed to this day, therefore the boy who killed his classmates wasn't him, it's a FACT!!! So let's make a new article for his younger lookalike. Same for Hayate, he couldn't have gone with Kakashi to the Academy, therefore he had a twin!!! I have proof!!! Kishimoto's own words!!! Because he never contradicts himself "sarcasm"--Elveonora (talk) 02:09, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

"Everything we have been told what Sage Mode is was nothing but molding Senjutsu chakra." - Source please. The databook doesn't say so, as proven above. What does the manga say? Seelentau 愛 07:04, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
Honestly, I read that whole thing and came up with the same reaction as Seel. You can whine and moan about what's been accepted for years and what not, but until I see where the manga says an animal can use Sage Mode, when Fukasaku's own description of Sage Mode doesn't fit what the toads do, and Kishimoto left them out of a listing on Sage Mode while describing a scene in the same paragraph in which, according to you, they were using Sage Mode, then yeah, you can write me a novel and I won't believe you. Your interpretations don't amount to a hill of beans. But, as Seel states, show us where the manga says the toads use Sage Mode. Show us where it says Senjutsu and Sage Mode are one in the same. At that point, I'll believe you, but until then, all you've got it a lot of personal conviction and whole lot of nothing as far as evidence goes. And no. I don't consider "we've documented it as fact for years!" to be proof of anything other than blatant ignorance on the community's part. I've been saying that since this debate cropped up back when we were arguing it about Gamakichi, so I don't know why you think I'm only saying something now because Seel has. Feel free to search Sage Mode (and perhaps Gamakichi? I can't remember if I brought it up there too) talk page archives (edit: Right here). You'll find that I was actually quite pissed that you guys actually arrived at that conclusion when both the manga and the databooks don't support it. Not only that, but you'll find several other like minded users (including Omnibender) who voiced alongside me that it was stupid, based on our information, to assume that to begin with. So yes. It should be removed. Because it isn't a fact. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 07:39, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
As a side note: If kneading Senchakra means, one is in Sage Mode, how come Madara could absorb Hashirama's Senchakra while the Senju wasn't in Sage Mode? How come Orochimaru could knead Senchakra, but failed to enter Sage Mode through Senninka because he missed the right body? Seelentau 愛 07:48, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

decision time: Bullet Points

Can someone please, for the uninitiated that have almost no way to follow this discussion, make a list of bullet points with the main arguments for this situation? Please?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 13:09, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

My argument is as follows:

  • Jūgo states that Kabuto's body, which he himself called Sage Mode, is the same as Jūgo's own transformation, named Sage Transformation. (ch. 593)
  • Sage Transformation is a transformation caused by a special body that absorbs natural energy, as explained by Kabuto. (ch. 579)
  • If you know how to knead Senchakra, but don't have the right body, you can't undergo the Sage Transformation, as explained by Kabuto. (ch. 579)
  • If you have the body and master it at the Ryūchidō, you can undergo Sage Transformation and enter the mode known as Sage Mode, as explained by Kabuto. (ch. 579)

From these statements I conclude that Sage Transformation is the ability to change your special body through absorbing natural energy and only if you master your special body, you can enter Sage Mode. If you don't gain control, you go berserk. This means that while both Jūgo and Kabuto are to be classified as Sage Transformation users, only Kabuto has to be classified as a Sage Mode user, too.
Everything about the frogs and Jiraiya's imperfect Sage Mode has nothing to do with this topic, since the way he enters Sage Mode is different (namely without the special body). Seelentau 愛 14:19, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

Are you two even serious? There's its entry from databook translated that says so and despite that, you ask for proof. Worst thing worst, we read the same text and yet you say it's not there. Either of us obviously has reading comprehension problems. Read again carefully: "his body absorbs a great amount of nature energy. By kneading this with his own chakra, he gains the ability to use "senjutsu", rapidly increasing the level of all techniques, be it ninjutsu, taijutsu, or genjutsu!!!" This sentence pretty much says kneading senjutsu chakra = sage mode and one must be of Neanderthal descent, ignorant, blind or having reading comprehension problems for it to convey any other meaning. The next thing you tell me is that it's not Sage Mode what improves ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjtsu and so on but some another Senjutsu technique with Sage Mode doing an another thing entirely. So it really is about interpretation and for some reason you two interpret what's written differently than it is written and of course, I expect you think the same about me, so we go on around in circles. Therefore we need more input, best from expert of linguistics. It really pains me to offend you like this, but know this, my pain is far greater than yours, I don't want to be right "joke" @Seel, we don't know and I can't answer that, neither can you, we can both only try to explain why that was. Nothing but my understanding of it and a possible explanation is that perhaps Hashirama's chakra levels are far greater than Madara's and Hashirama didn't have enough Senjutsu chakra molded for it to manifest as Sage Mode, while the same amount is enough for Madara. And you answered yourself, Orochimaru doesn't have the right host body, with put emphasis on host. Kabuto never stated "Orochimaru-sama's own body can't handle Senjutsu".

For the on original topic about Jugo part, I don't disagree with you, we say the same thing and understand it about the same. Except for some reason what in Jugo's case is an Imperfect Sage Mode isn't to you just because he doesn't absorb natural energy himself. Pretty much you say lack of mastery =/= shouldn't be listed as user with one breath and yet Jiraiya, who also didn't have mastery over it is okay just because he could absorb natural energy without special body. Why does the process how the natural energy is gathered is even a determining factor for you? It's about him using it, not being unable to use in a theoretical condition in case he didn't have special body, no IFs. EDIT: Yes, I'm positive the reason why Madara could absorb Hashirama's Senjutsu chakra and enter Sage Mode despite the latter lacking eye pigmentation and all is the very same why Obito also lacked the pigmentation, there was too lite Senjutsu chakra, but enough for Madara.--Elveonora (talk) 18:08, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

By the Twelve Elveonora, I was asking for bullet points to understand this topic, not three paragraphs @_@--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 19:13, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
That's actually bullet points from my point of view. To me the word by word translation from the databook states what I say it does. But read it yourself; what impression do you personally get from this?: ""his body absorbs a great amount of nature energy. By kneading this with his own chakra, he gains the ability to use "senjutsu", rapidly increasing the level of all techniques, be it ninjutsu, taijutsu, or genjutsu!!!"" directly from Databook's entry about Sage Mode. It says kneading senjutsu chakra = sage mode, unless improved ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu isn't sage mode and Kishimoto just talks about a different Senjutsu technique in Sage Mode entry for teh lulz without even explaining what Sage Mode is. So yes, the canon indeed says molding Senjutsu chakra = Sage Mode, unless myself and Kishi are retards of the finest caliber. The same thing is stated and seen in the manga. Someone just likes to make up conspiracy out of Toad Sages being omitted. They do nothing different from human Sages, but I admit that their cases is perhaps special, because the omission may or may not be an error. I think we should all head back on the original topic. We can start a topic about shima and fukasaku's usage elsewhere. Why it isn't possibly true for the toads is unknown, but Jugo is no toad. He is a human, molds Senjutsu chakra and enters Sage Transformation which is nothing but Sage Mode + bodily transformation caused by special fluids' reaction to senjutsu chakra. Position that "he doesn't absorb natural energy himself therefore shouldn't be considered a true user" is hardly logical and relevant in my opinion.--Elveonora (talk) 22:58, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

Bump, should be concluded asap because it's one of those things that keep hanging in the air for years.--Elveonora (talk) 14:20, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

By now, I don't even care anymore what you do with the information I provided you. I refuse to repeat myself again, every argument I gave you guys can be read on this page, if there's anything else you want me to explain, simply ask. Seelentau 愛 17:51, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
Come on, I know I didn't sound very nice, but don't worry about that. I talk worse with my own friends and family, yet we still all love each other ;) About Jugo, in case you didn't notice, I actually agree with you on the bullet points parts, I just don't get how using Sage Mode with "unnaturally absorbed natural energy" doesn't count.

For "Senjutsu = or =/= Sage Mode???" part and Shima, Fukasaku and all, no one asks you to repeat yourself, we both have said everything we could on the topic, we just each interpret the same thing differently as bizarre as it is and I guess only third-party can set thing straight now. It's pretty much to other editors what they do, I'm not gonna change anything myself either, since as you said, it's there, serve yourselves. I just wouldn't like nothing being done at all, again--Elveonora (talk) 18:07, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

I've simply reached a point where the whole issue became too convoluted for me to understand, so my reaction to this has defaulted to "yeah sure, whatever". Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:40, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

Elve-kun, I'm not angry at you or anyone. It's just that I tend to know my stuff and my explanations of such things are generally accepted by the majority, at least in the German fandom. I'm not used to people opposing my knowledge, as arrogant as that may sound.
The whole issue boils down to one thing: There are people with special bodies (Jugo, his clan and Kabuto) and people without special bodies (Naruto, Jiraiya). Both are able to draw in natural energy, but only those with control over the kneaded Senchakra can enter Sage Mode. If you have no control over the Senchakra and a special body, you go wild. If you have no control over the Senchakra and no special body, you turn to stone. As I said a million times already, Sage Mode is not the state of having Senchakra in ones body. That was never stated, as far as I know. Sage Mode is the state one can enter if he has control over Senchakra and, if he has a special body, control over that body. Seelentau 愛 19:00, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
"Hugs" that's nice of you to say and to admit one's own arrogance takes character, kudos. But to me: this says Senchakra = Sage Mode :P I'm not kidding you, if I read it backwards or from any angle, it just does. Do you have a German or English versions of the databook? Because translation word-by-word from one language into another can result in loss of intended meaning and it also depends on each of our own interpretation and understanding of context--Elveonora (talk) 19:11, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
Ah well, the concept of Seelentau can't go without arrogance, that's been established over the years.
The German version says basically the same: "In the decisive battle against Pain, Jiraiya shows himself in the shape of this sage technique.". Everything after that is about Senjutsu in general, as it is in the Japanese original. Seelentau 愛 19:17, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
But it's the rest of it what says Senjutsu chakra = Sage Mode to me. It says: "his body absorbs a great amount of nature energy. By kneading this with his own chakra, he gains the ability to use "senjutsu", rapidly increasing the level of all techniques, be it ninjutsu, taijutsu, or genjutsu!!" therefore Senchakra improves power of ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu, but isn't essentially that "Sage Mode" Senchakra empowering you? It doesn't talk about Senjutsu techniques in general as you say, otherwise it would be: "by kneading this with his own chakra, he gains the ability to use various senjutsu techniques" and would omit the empowerment part--Elveonora (talk) 19:24, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
But Sage Mode isn't mentioned after that. It's stated that the Senchakra empowers your techniques. How can the looks of somebody empower the techniques he's using? Even Fukasaku says that "Senjutsu" is what empowers Naruto's techniques. He doesn't even mention the Sage Mode, so I might even believe that that one sentence in the databook is the only sentence in the whole manga which directly says something about the Sage Mode. Seelentau 愛 19:28, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
The whole entry is about Sage Mode my man. I think you are a little paranoid in this case. The general consensus is that being in state of your techniques be empowered with Senchakra is Sage Mode, otherwise in case you are right it would mean we don't know what Sage Mode even is, what's unlikely, because it would render it quite pointless. What you imply is that Sage Mode = having pigment and animal eyes and just that I get it.--Elveonora (talk) 19:40, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

But that's what the databook says. I'm not making this up. Seelentau 愛 19:49, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

I think this topic needs to go to the forums, it's hard to read what the heck this is about >_> --Speysider Talk Page | My Image Uploads | Tabber Code | Channel 20:31, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
... essentially, the general consensus is that molding Senjutsu chakra makes one enter Sage Mode. To me, the databook says so, but for Seel, it says a different thing entirely as strange as it sounds. Just scroll a little bit above and read it for yourself and then tell me what you make of it. Seel says that empowering oneself with Senjutsu chakra isn't Sage Mode, only physical animal traits and pigment or something like that. Anyway, why are so many people lazy-readers? ._. I blame the society, it's just videogames, alcohol&drugs and races for "who gets STD or becomes pregnant/impregnates first" Back in my day, we actually read books... Well, I didn't either, but someone had to be the first, you know? :P EDIT: @Seel, no one accuses you of anything, I'm just positive that you purposely misinterpret it now just because Shima and Fukasaku aren't listed, so you want it to be true your way, because you are trying to come with an excuse, like Sage Mode being turning into animal and animals are already animals, so can't use Sage Mode, derp.--Elveonora (talk) 23:25, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
I couldn't care less about Ma and Pa for now. Seelentau 愛 02:32, March 9, 2014 (UTC)
At long last! And here I thought the day would never come for those little green pests to be gone. Then I guess all that's left is for someone to decipher the code written by our ancestry, wrought with ancient linguistics, mathematics and philosophy, long forgotten by modern history. What a formidable task if you ask me.--Elveonora (talk) 07:55, March 9, 2014 (UTC)
Sarcasm ain't gonna help nobody, bro. Maybe you should consider that we have more information from the manga which supports my view of things? Seelentau 愛 10:42, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Such as? Because all the information provided and everything ever said and shown about Sage Mode says to me: "Hey Elveonora, I agree with you buddy" Like this, we are just competing to prove who has the larger testicles here. Mine aren't that big if you want to know and yours are likely bigger, but I heard that the larger they are the more they hurt when they get kicked--Elveonora (talk) 11:11, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Fukasaku's explanation of Senjutsu is the exact same as the one in the databook, no Sage Mode mentioned. Orochimaru could knead Senchakra, but didn't enter Sage Mode. And yes, the frogs again. Seelentau 愛 11:34, March 9, 2014 (UTC)
And the explanation says what it does as is written and understood here tho Sage Mode it did state it yesterday and will state so tomorrow as well and the meaning won't change once we are a few meters under the ground, arguing still with worms feeding on us either. I'm beginning to wonder by now if you really do believe your own words. I respect you (you know that I suppose) but just for a second try to consider you are mistaken here. Also they are toads, not frogs and you said you couldn't care less about them :P--Elveonora (talk) 13:18, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

I've been asked to give my opinion, so here it comes. You are very right to say that Jugo is using senjutsu chakra and absorbing nature energy. However, Jugo absorbs it naturally, it isn't done through training. He has, apparently, no control over the absorption. Resulting in him rampaging, unless Sasuke calms him down. Jugo could learn to control his nature energy, and properly balance the senjutsu chakra in his body, turning him into a Sage. It's the control over the senjutsu chakra that makes a Sage, not the simple presence over the chakra. Like I said, he would need training. In truth, Jugo is no different than any other non-Sage, it's just he has experience with nature energy and senjutsu chakra, but he is not a Sage. Fukasaku and Shima, on the other hand, have gone through the training, to see nature energy and merge it in balance with their normal chakra. They are Sages, and are just as much Sages as Naruto. Sure they might not show the Sage Mode "transformation" but you have to remember they already have those characteristics, they ARE frogs. You can't become more "frog-e". Sage Transformation is an ability branching off of Jugo's ability to naturally absorb nature energy. It has nothing to so with Sage Mode. However, should the two abilities be merged, such as in Kabuto, the Sage Mode could continue to run indefinitely because the Sage is constantly bring in nature energy via Jugo's DNA. Any way, I think it's wrong to say Shima, Fukasaku, and Shima are not Sages. Omega64 (talk) 16:22, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

@Omega, Thanks for feedback, but you misunderstood the issue. I agree Jugo isn't a Sage in title/status and Seel doesn't disagree about the toads being Sages. He says tho, that the toads aren't using Sage Mode and that Sage Mode isn't Senjutsu chakra empowerment meaning the Sage Mode itself doesn't make the user and his/her techniques stronger and so on, but rather its just the animal changes and pigment alone from the way he words it, which in my opinion is farfetched. The way it's currently understood by majority (which I believe to be the correct understanding of it, because the way it's worded in the databook I do interpret it no differently than the way it's documented at the present) is that when one absorbs natural energy and mixes it with physical and spiritual energies, molding senjutsu chakra, the one enters Sage Mode. And by that, there's no reason for why shouldn't Shima, Fukasaku and Gamakichi also be users. What Seel directly or indirectly suggests is that Sage Mode = turning into animal, therefore animals can't use it since they can't become more animal as they already are.... ._. all of this conspiracy-crafting stems from the fact that the Third Databook omits them as users for whatever reason. But please read the entry yourself and tell me what it says to you Sage Mode is (Seel said the empowerment is about Senjutsu in general rather than the mode itself do you get such a vibe?). here it is Also you aren't entirely correct about what Sage Transformation is, it's the bodily shapeshifting Jugo and his clan do, not their ability to absorb natural energy, which is unnamed and unexplained and highly likely a Kekkei Genkai. The point is, Sage Transformation occurs when Jugo molds Senjutsu chakra as a side-effect due to his special bodily fluids which trigger the transformation as a reaction to the senjutsu chakra. And since you seem to agree that molding Senjutsu chakra = Sage Mode, it means whenever Jugo uses Sage Transformation, he is also using Sage Mode by extension or rather in reverse, those with special bodily fluids like Jugo (and Kabuto too, since he has his cells) using Sage Mode results in them turning into X-Men rejects due to said fluids. This is essentially what the topic, or the many topics it consists of do all boil down to... thanks again.--Elveonora (talk) 21:28, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not going to give the same argument over and over again and pray that it works. Definition of insanity. I will simply say that I continue to agree with Seel, mainly because A) his points are direct translations from the manga, while Elve's main defense is "you don't interpret it like me, so you're all wrong", and B) his points are the same points I made the last time this was debated. Doesn't get much clearer than that. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 04:19, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
I don't use any translations of my own taken from my ass, nor do I make up new meanings for it just to suit my view or wishful thinking. I interpret it the same way it's currently written HERE on narutopedia for years, because there is no other interpretation to me. So thank you for status update, I just want to let you know I continue to disagree with Seel's sentiments just as you do continue to agree with his. It's Seelentau here who says something different than the majority of Naruto fandom, so I'm gonna just leave it at that. And before: "just because majority thinks x doesn't make x true" well, ShounenSuki sensei understood it the same way I do if that means anything. But go on, I won't bite, remove Shima and Fukasaku as Sage Mode users and rewrite Sage Mode article into Animal Transformation for all I care--Elveonora (talk) 11:43, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

The funny thing is, Suki-senpai did a "New Years Facts Checking" a few years ago, correcting stuff that was widely accepted as the truth until then, and nobody ever doubted him. I'm doing the same with things like Senninka, Enton and Ten Tail's Chakra, only on a more frequent basis. But everyone and their neighbour is doubting me. :( Seelentau 愛 11:45, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

The fact checking was mostly related to wrong translations, not about disputing widely accepted interpretations. Your translation is the same as his, just for some reason you see something else written there :P @Foxie, you can be a cool guy, but I don't like you exactly in situations like this when you are in the opposition just because a person you worship says something makes you obliged to agree with it as if it were a scripture. Prove me wrong what you think is your own opinion and understanding of it rather than zealotry--Elveonora (talk) 11:55, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
I was just incredibly lazy. Also this discussion = @_@ to me. I so confused.
Can't we just make this article about the uncontrolled absorbsion/body freakout Jugo's clan does and specifically state that the only difference between this and Sage Mode is that Sages actually try?
Please?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 11:56, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
You still confused. Seelentau says Sage Mode isn't what it currently states here Sage Mode and that non-human users of Senjutsu don't use Sage Mode. The general consensus is that when an individual molds Senjutsu chakra, his or her body enters an empowered state called Sage Mode. Seelentau says it's wrong, that's the issue.--Elveonora (talk) 12:18, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
/cry --TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:25, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I'm short of shedding tears myself.--Elveonora (talk) 12:37, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Maybe this helps? Seelentau 愛 13:02, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

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