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==Age==
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{{ArchiveList}}
What does "Phisically 16 (Years old) means?
 
:It means that his appearance is that of a ninja the age of 16. [[User:Shuhei Hisagi|Shuhei Hisagi]] 01:20, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 
   
==Trivia==
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== decision time ==
Shouldn't someone list that Jugo is the tallest person in Naruto in the trivia page?
 
   
:That's mentioned in the Appearance section. Trivia sections are for information that can't (or has yet to be) integrated into other parts of the article. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 02:54, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
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Continuing here from the super long topic at Senninka's page. So can we just list Jugo as a user of Sage Mode or merge the two and call it a day?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:48, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
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:...So Jugo is a sage now?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 12:43, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
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::...No. Only those who've mastered the Sage Mode (either through Naruto-like training or Kabuto-like means) are sages. Those who can knead Senchakra, but can't enter Sage Mode because they don't have the right body or loose control over themselves, aren't sages. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 12:50, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
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:::I also say no. Isn't a Sage someone who was '''taught''' Senjutsu or perhaps trained it by himself even? Other than having Senjutsu chakra, Jugo doesn't know any "Sage Technique:" or "Sage Art:" not to mention he doesn't even know how to absorb natural energy since his body does it for him. He is as much of a Sage as Curse Mark wielders are, save the fact he manipulates the Senjutsu chakra himself to use Sage Transformation, which is a Sage Mode--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:54, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
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::::@Seel, I don't think it's about mastery, otherwise Jiraiya wouldn't be a Sage.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:55, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Mastery as in "opposed to whatever Jugo's and Orochimaru's problem is", not in "complete and perfect control". Sage Transformation can be used to enter Sage Mode, yes. This means, we have three ST user: Kabuto, Jugo (+ clan) and Obito (somewhat unclear), but only Kabuto can also use Sage Mode. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 13:01, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
   
But he isnt the tallest anymore because he gave Sasuke some of his skin(or flesh whichever u want to call it) and didnt he look like a small kid so he wouldnt be the tallest[[User:Narutosagemaster|Narutosagemaster]] ([[User talk:Narutosagemaster|talk]]) 19:35, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
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Since Sage Transformation is an extension of Sage Mode, that in my opinion is enough to list him as a user. For status, short story is, Jugo can mold Senjutsu chakra himself. It's arguable if that is enough to classify him as a Sage--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:04, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
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:@Seel, for some reason you consider only those who perfectly balance Senjutsu chakra as true Sage Mode users. But that isn't a requirement, otherwise Jiraiya again wouldn't be a user--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:05, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
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::Sage Transformation is what the special bodies do to Jugo and his kin (as stated by Jugo). If one has gained control over his body at the Ryuchido (as stated by Kabuto), he can use the Sage Transformation to enter Sage Mode (as stated by Kabuto). Kabuto can do so, Jugo can't. Kabuto is a sage, Jugo is not.
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::It isn't a requirement, yes. But I never stated that it is. Of course he's a sage. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 13:10, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
   
At that point, he reverted to a small child, but as far as recent chapters have shown, he's back to his normal height. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 19:44, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
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Again, we consider Jiraiya a user of Sage Mode. Jugo isn't any different from him, he can create Senjutsu chakra but can't completely balance it, therefore when he uses Sage Transformation he is by all means using Incomplete Sage Mode as well--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:14, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
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:He is different from Jiraiya in terms of how he absorbs natural energy. Really, I think if it wasn't for Jūgo's body, he'd be an imperfect sage, too. But there's the difference between accessing sage mode through normal means, like Naruto and Jiraiya do, and accessing it through a modified body, like Jugo and Kabuto do. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 13:20, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
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::How they absorb natural energies is a determining factor if they are of Sage status or not, not if they are using the mode itself. Jugo still has to mold Senjutsu chakra and doing so makes him enter Sage Mode, or rather Sage Transformation hence special bodily fluids. By the same logic, each time Shima&Fukasaku were absorbing natural energy for Jiraiya, he wasn't in those instances user of Sage Mode. Molding and manipulating Senjutsu chakra = Sage Mode, it's not about knowing how to absorb natural energy, but that's how I see it--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:52, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
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:"Molding and manipulating Senjutsu chakra = Sage Mode" - and here's the problem. According to the databooks, even though Fukasaku and Shima were absorbing natural energy and kneading senchakra, they aren't users of the sage mode. This makes me think that "Molding and manipulating Senjutsu chakra =/= Sage Mode", which is furthermore supported by the fact that Sage Mode is a Senjutsu, but not every Senjutsu has Sage Mode as a parent technique. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 14:00, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
   
== The "best friend" sentence ==
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::I am completely confused.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:14, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
   
Vegerot, you've been adding "because [[Kimimaro|his best friend]] or" to the article. However, the way you added is ungrammatical. Please add it properly. --[[User:ShounenSuki|ShounenSuki]] <sup>([[User_talk:ShounenSuki|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/ShounenSuki|contribs]])</sup> 21:10, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
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@Seel, I'm aware that databooks don't list Fukasaku and Shima as Sage Mode users, but we do. The books are not always correct, you know this. There's manga evidence that molding Senjutsu chakra = Sage Mode as I mentioned the toad oil. The moment Naruto's body started absorbing natural energy, he started gaining toad characteristics. He didn't have to say "ACTIVATE!" and perform a hand sign. For "not every Senjutsu has Sage Mode as a parent" We are yet to see anyone use Senjutsu outside of Sage Mode--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:21, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
   
I am not sure I am in 5th grade for gods sake! Can somebody add it for me please? [[User:Vegerot|Vegerot]] ([[User_talk:Vegerot|talk]]) 21:12, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
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"Simant asked me for my input in this discussion. As explained in chapter 418 and in the third databook, Sage Mode is the state where one has moulded senjutsu chakra inside oneself. The state where one can use senjutsu and has had their body vitalised by the senjutsu chakra. Using this definition, both Fukasaku and Shima are capable of using Sage Mode, as they have clearly shown the ability to use senjutsu. --ShounenSuki"--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:24, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
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:Suki-senpai has my utmost respect, you all know that. But if we use an old definition on information that was provided after the definition was established, we can only lose. Things change. Information changes. Facts change. Please don't measure new things by old standards. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 14:37, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
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::Since when did anything change? I must have missed that. I'm positive we haven't been given anything new in that regard since "old definition on information" nor have we seen it done. When Naruto absorbs natural energy and then balances it with his physical and spiritual energies, thus molding senjutsu chakra, he enters Sage Mode, no hand seal done or anything. That's why I'm not sure why you come to the conclusion that molding Senjutsu chakra isn't equivalent of Sage Mode, other than Shima and Fukasaku not being credited in databook, which might be an error--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:43, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
   
==scales==
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Well, whatever comes from this topic is that either we list Jugo as a user or remove Shima, Fukasaku and Gamakichi, let the vote begin--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:48, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
how does Jugo of the Scales reference his dual personality? also, does this have a relation to Onoki? [[Special:Contributions/24.189.153.102|24.189.153.102]] ([[User talk:24.189.153.102|talk]]) 23:02, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
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:Can't we just add the fact and remove everything else? :( [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|]]</sup> 15:02, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
   
:Because his personality can tip in one direction with little provocation. "Bipolar Jugo" makes this more obvious. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 02:38, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
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Well, let's look at the thing objectively. Both manga and databooks say that molding Senjutsu chakra activates Sage Mode, yet toads aren't listed for whatever reason. Logical conclusions:
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# it's an error that they aren't listed
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# just molding Senjutsu chakra doesn't activate Sage Mode
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Looking at the fact that the definition fits with what the toads do means it's more likely to be an error OR.... and there's where facts stop, we could speculate that toads are in Senjutsu-enhanced state constantly and don't have to use mode, since they are "nature" but that's a speculation and in fact contradicts the fact they also have to gather natural energy to mold senjutsu chakra.
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Therefore it's an error, the safest route, just like Zabuza's age is an error, yet some yourself included speculate that the young boy who killed his classmate couldn't have been Zabuza rather than admitting calculation error on Kishi's part.
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That's my input, let's wait for others.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:13, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
   
I doubt it cuz his nickname is Jugo of the Scales while Onoki's is Onoki of Both Scales
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:Unless there has been any new information revealed in the manga, after Shounen gave the definition, which I don't think there was; I would rather go with the former (i.e. Add Jūgo).--''[[User:UltimateSupreme|<span style="color:#0078ff; text-shadow: 0px 1px 0.4px #0054d3, -1px -1px 1px white, -2px -2px 6px #0093f4;">~Ultimate</span>]][[User talk:UltimateSupreme|<span style="color:#f00; text-shadow: 0px 1px 0.4px #f33, 1px 0px 1px white, 2px 2px 6px #f33, -2px -2px 6px #f33;">Supreme</span>]]'' 15:17, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Jugo's Picture ==
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::The thing is, Suki-senpai's words and his translation don't match. Check [[User:ShounenSuki/Third_Databook_Translations#Sennin_Mode_.28p._279.29|it]]. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 15:23, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
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:::They actually do, it says that using Senjutsu chakra increases power of ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu and as you know that's what Sage Mode is and the translation is about.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:54, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
   
Even Though Jugo has been in the Anime for 2 episodes he still has a manga picture, I can not edit his page so can someone please change his picture. --[[User:Hidan13|Hidan13]] ([[User talk:Hidan13|talk]]) 03:04, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
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Regarding the toad issue, Fukasaku definitely entered an empowered state, but is it not possible it is only called Sage Mode when humans do it, hence the databook only listing Jiraiya? The toads don't change, after all, so it may not be considered a "mode" for them.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 16:28, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
:There hasn't been a good enough shot to put in...Anything, put in now, will more than likely be replaced after the next episode...-- [[User:AlienGamer|AlienGamer]]--[[User talk:AlienGamer|Talk]]-- 03:07, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
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::::No, they do not. The only sentence in the databook about the ''Sage Mode'' is "The form Jiraiya showed to use Senjutsu during his decisive battle with Pain.". Everything else is about ''Senjutsu''. If Sage Mode and Senjutsu were one and the same, the very first sentence wouldn't discern between the form (Sage Mode) and Senjutsu. So no, according to the databook, Sage Mode and Senjutsu are two different things, with Sage Mode being a Senjutsu, of course. Also, Ma and Pa are not user of the Sage Mode, that was never stated anywhere and should not be added in the article, since it's obviously not correct. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|]]</sup> 16:58, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Height issue ==
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It pretty much boils down to interpretation, I don't read it as suggesting any differentiation. It just says Sage Mode is Senjutsu. And "showed to use senjutsu" can actually be interpreted as Senjutsu use requiring Sage Mode activated--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:47, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
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:Somehow, it always comes down to interpretation when I discuss with you. But it's not our job to interpret. Please show me a source for Senjutsu = Sage Mode, I can't remember where that was stated. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 17:56, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
   
Well I do agree that Jugo is the tallest (so far) human character in the story, but there is an issue: since the attack on the eight-tails, he's in a "younger form" and from what I sow in chapter 456, that he is still that height. I don't think his altered state has a height of 202,1cm (he's about a head shorter then Sasuke). [[User talk:Cyrus1|Cyrus1]] 17:03, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
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Someone mind giving us lost and thoroughly confused people done bullet points? --[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 18:59, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
:The thing is that we don't know any other height. They comes with the databooks. [[User:Jacce|Jacce]] | [[User talk:Jacce|Talk]] 15:12, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 
::Plus, we don't know if he's still in his child state, from the most recent chapters, he seems to have reached his normal age again, at least going by his height. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 16:01, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 
:::Check 459 page 12, the one to the left of Sasuke is Juugo huh? It appears that he is still a child:-O - [[User:MadaraU|MadaraU]] ([[User talk:MadaraU|talk]]) 18:01, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 
::::Then he keeps changing, a couple chapters earlier, he was in his regular height. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 21:17, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 
   
== Devoured? ==
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How else can "The form Jiraiya showed to use Senjutsu during his decisive battle with Pain" be interpreted other than:
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* the form uses senjutsu
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* or the form is required to use senjutsu
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Where do you get the vibe that using Senjutsu chakra =/= Sage Mode?
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@Cerez, Seelentau stating that toads don't use Sage Mode because using Senjutsu isn't synonymous with using Sage Mode--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:06, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
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:It doesn't matter where I get the vibes from. I need a proof that what you say is true. Nothing else. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 19:29, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
   
I have not seen anywhere that says Jugo DEVOURED an entire village, killed yes but not devoure.
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:: ...Toad's '''don't''' use Sage Mode. Senjutsu =/= Sage Mode. If it did, Orochimaru would be a user of Sage Mode... and he isn't. Vibes, interpretations, all that nonsense has nothing to do with it. The cold hard facts don't support it. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 22:19, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
   
:It's from the databook. What it means is open to debate. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 03:50, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
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@Seel, it goes both ways. I would like some proof as well. Everything we have been told what Sage Mode is was nothing but molding Senjutsu chakra. There's no evidence for otherwise, never was Sage Mode somehow activated. People just absorb natural energy, mold senjutsu chakra and they enter Sage Mode as a consequence of that, no hand seals or anything. Why Shima and Fukasaku weren't listed is for an other topic entirely.
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@TFF, well mister, we list them as users of Sage Mode for half a decade and suddenly "the cold hard facts don't support it" that's bizarre. Not sure why you bring Orochimaru, since has nothing to do with it. Orochimaru being capable of using Senjutsu means he knows how to absorb natural energy and mold Senjutsu chakra. The reason why he can't enter Sage Mode we were told is because he hasn't found a '''host''' body strong enough to wield it, so by all means and purposes, he is a user of Sage Mode, people like someone are just ignorant.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 01:37, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
== cursed seal ==
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: We're not an authority on anything. If Naruto was listed a user of [[Chidori]] on here for years, it makes it just as much bullcrap now as the day it was listed. Animals don't use Sage Mode. They use ''senjutsu'', but again, Senjutsu =/= Sage Mode. I find it hard to believe Kishimoto would write an entry on Sage Mode and only list Jiraiya — when both Fukasaku and Shima had used Senjutsu in the same series of chapters — just for shits and giggles. As Seel said, Sage Mode is a type of Senjutsu, but the terms are not synonymous. And Elve, you really shouldn't be calling people ignorant when your usual rebuttal to arguments are founded, in your own words, in your "''interpretation''" of what is said or done, instead of what actually happened or was said. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 01:46, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
should we make a page for jugo's "cursed seal" or "ability", or whatever it is called? [[Special:Contributions/24.189.153.102|24.189.153.102]] ([[User talk:24.189.153.102|talk]]) 21:23, September 12, 2009 (UTC)
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So why don't you remove them, since you "know" we are wrong? And it's interesting that despite your apparent knowledge of the mistake you hadn't cared to correct it until now that Seelentau said so. No offense, but borrowing head into one's backside isn't nice.
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But I guess go on, fix it. Wait, I guess you think it's not just a one man's decision, or two's to suddenly get rid of something that's been for many years considered by the majority to be a fact. By what difference would opinion of others even make since you two "know" it's wrong? So do you even want to argue about this, or are your minds already made up or something?
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Also you sound so sure of yourself Foxie with "animals don't use Sage Mode" ... why wouldn't they? Shima and Fukasaku are Sages and it's called '''Sage''' Mode, not Animal Mode. The databooks aren't without errors and yes, even Kishi's memory isn't eternal. Pain was drawn with Sharingan once. But how could Kishimoto make such a mistake, did he forget the difference between the two or just human factor happened and he unknowingly switched them in his subconsciousness while he was tired? Zabuza's age isn't fixed to this day, therefore the boy who killed his classmates wasn't him, it's a FACT!!! So let's make a new article for his younger lookalike. Same for Hayate, he couldn't have gone with Kakashi to the Academy, therefore he had a twin!!! I have proof!!! Kishimoto's own words!!! Because he never contradicts himself "sarcasm"--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 02:09, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
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:"Everything we have been told what Sage Mode is was nothing but molding Senjutsu chakra." - Source please. The databook doesn't say so, as proven above. What does the manga say? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 07:04, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
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:: Honestly, I read that whole thing and came up with the same reaction as Seel. You can whine and moan about what's been accepted for years and what not, but until I see where the manga says an animal can use Sage Mode, when Fukasaku's own description of Sage Mode doesn't fit what the toads do, and Kishimoto left them out of a listing on Sage Mode while describing a scene ''in the same paragraph'' in which, according to you, they were using Sage Mode, then yeah, you can write me a novel and I won't believe you. Your interpretations don't amount to a hill of beans. But, as Seel states, show us where the manga says the toads use Sage Mode. Show us where it says Senjutsu and Sage Mode are one in the same. At that point, I'll believe you, but until then, all you've got it a lot of personal conviction and whole lot of nothing as far as evidence goes. And no. I don't consider "we've documented it as fact for years!" to be proof of anything other than blatant ignorance on the community's part. I've been saying that since this debate cropped up back when we were arguing it about Gamakichi, so I don't know why you think I'm only saying something ''now'' because Seel has. Feel free to search Sage Mode (and perhaps Gamakichi? I can't remember if I brought it up there too) talk page archives ('''edit''': Right [[Talk:Sage Mode/Archive 3#Gamakichi?|here]]). You'll find that I was actually quite pissed that you guys actually arrived at that conclusion when both the manga and the databooks don't support it. Not only that, but you'll find several other like minded users (including Omnibender) who voiced alongside me that it was stupid, based on our information, to assume that to begin with. So yes. It should be removed. Because it isn't a fact. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 07:39, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
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::As a side note: If kneading Senchakra means, one is in Sage Mode, how come Madara could absorb Hashirama's Senchakra while the Senju wasn't in Sage Mode? How come Orochimaru could knead Senchakra, but failed to enter Sage Mode through Senninka because he missed the right body? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 07:48, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
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===decision time: Bullet Points===
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Can someone please, for the uninitiated that have almost no way to follow this discussion, make a list of bullet points with the main arguments for this situation? Please?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:09, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
Should we be saying that Jūgo has a Cursed Seal? Technically he has a natural ability that allowed Orochimaru to develop his Cursed Seal. Jūgo really doesn't have it himself. --[[User:ShounenSuki|ShounenSuki]] <sup>([[User_talk:ShounenSuki|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/ShounenSuki|contribs]])</sup> 22:48, September 12, 2009 (UTC)
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My argument is as follows:
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* Jūgo states that Kabuto's body, which he himself called ''Sage Mode'', is the same as Jūgo's own transformation, named ''Sage Transformation''. (ch. 593)
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* ''Sage Transformation'' is a transformation caused by a special body that absorbs natural energy, as explained by Kabuto. (ch. 579)
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* If you know how to knead ''Senchakra'', but don't have the right body, you can't undergo the ''Sage Transformation'', as explained by Kabuto. (ch. 579)
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* If you have the body and master it at the Ryūchidō, you can undergo ''Sage Transformation'' and enter the mode known as ''Sage Mode'', as explained by Kabuto. (ch. 579)
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From these statements I conclude that '''Sage Transformation is the ability to change your ''special'' body through absorbing natural energy''' and only if you master your ''special'' body, you can enter ''Sage Mode''. If you don't gain control, you go berserk. This means that while both Jūgo and Kabuto are to be classified as ''Sage Transformation'' users, only Kabuto has to be classified as a ''Sage Mode'' user, too.<br />
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Everything about the frogs and Jiraiya's imperfect ''Sage Mode'' has nothing to do with this topic, since the way he enters ''Sage Mode'' is different (namely without the special body). [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 14:19, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
:The link to [[Orochimaru's Juinjutsu]] is just because the basic attributes are the same. I'm indifferent to it actually being listed in the infobox. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 22:58, September 12, 2009 (UTC)
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Are you two even serious? There's its entry from databook translated that says so and despite that, you ask for proof. Worst thing worst, we read the same text and yet you say it's not there. Either of us obviously has reading comprehension problems.
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Read again carefully: "his body absorbs a great amount of nature energy. By kneading this with his own chakra, he gains the ability to use "senjutsu", rapidly increasing the level of all techniques, be it ninjutsu, taijutsu, or genjutsu!!!" This sentence pretty much says kneading senjutsu chakra = sage mode and one must be of Neanderthal descent, ignorant, blind or having reading comprehension problems for it to convey any other meaning.
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The next thing you tell me is that it's not Sage Mode what improves ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjtsu and so on but some another Senjutsu technique with Sage Mode doing an another thing entirely. So it really is about interpretation and for some reason you two interpret what's written differently than it is written and of course, I expect you think the same about me, so we go on around in circles. Therefore we need more input, best from expert of linguistics. It really pains me to offend you like this, but know this, my pain is far greater than yours, I don't want to be right "joke"
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@Seel, we don't know and I can't answer that, neither can you, we can both only try to explain why that was. Nothing but my understanding of it and a possible explanation is that perhaps Hashirama's chakra levels are far greater than Madara's and Hashirama didn't have enough Senjutsu chakra molded for it to manifest as Sage Mode, while the same amount is enough for Madara. And you answered yourself, Orochimaru doesn't have the right host body, with put emphasis on host. Kabuto never stated "Orochimaru-sama's own body can't handle Senjutsu".
   
What Type is His Cursed Mark
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For the on original topic about Jugo part, I don't disagree with you, we say the same thing and understand it about the same. Except for some reason what in Jugo's case is an Imperfect Sage Mode isn't to you just because he doesn't absorb natural energy himself. Pretty much you say lack of mastery =/= shouldn't be listed as user with one breath and yet Jiraiya, who also didn't have mastery over it is okay just because he could absorb natural energy without special body. Why does the process how the natural energy is gathered is even a determining factor for you? It's about him using it, not being unable to use in a theoretical condition in case he didn't have special body, no IFs.
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EDIT: Yes, I'm positive the reason why Madara could absorb Hashirama's Senjutsu chakra and enter Sage Mode despite the latter lacking eye pigmentation and all is the very same why Obito also lacked the pigmentation, there was too lite Senjutsu chakra, but enough for Madara.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:08, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Trivia ==
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:By the Twelve Elveonora, I was asking for bullet points to understand this topic, not three paragraphs @_@--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 19:13, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
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::That's actually bullet points from my point of view. To me the word by word translation from the databook states what I say it does. But read it yourself; what impression do you personally get from this?: ""'''his body absorbs a great amount of nature energy. By kneading this with his own chakra, he gains the ability to use "senjutsu", rapidly increasing the level of all techniques, be it ninjutsu, taijutsu, or genjutsu!!!'''"" directly from Databook's entry about Sage Mode. It says kneading senjutsu chakra = sage mode, unless improved ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu isn't sage mode and Kishimoto just talks about a different Senjutsu technique in Sage Mode entry for teh lulz without even explaining what Sage Mode is. So yes, the canon indeed says molding Senjutsu chakra = Sage Mode, unless myself and Kishi are retards of the finest caliber. The same thing is stated and seen in the manga. Someone just likes to make up conspiracy out of Toad Sages being omitted. They do nothing different from human Sages, but I admit that their cases is perhaps special, because the omission may or may not be an error. I think we should all head back on the original topic. We can start a topic about shima and fukasaku's usage elsewhere. Why it isn't possibly true for the toads is unknown, but Jugo is no toad. He is a human, molds Senjutsu chakra and enters Sage Transformation which is nothing but Sage Mode + bodily transformation caused by special fluids' reaction to senjutsu chakra. Position that "he doesn't absorb natural energy himself therefore shouldn't be considered a true user" is hardly logical and relevant in my opinion.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:58, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
''"Jugo's opinion seems to be the only one out of Taka that Sasuke listens to. While Sasuke usually brushes everyone off, he listens to Jugo's advice."''
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Bump, should be concluded asap because it's one of those things that keep hanging in the air for years.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:20, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
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:By now, I don't even care anymore what you do with the information I provided you. I refuse to repeat myself again, every argument I gave you guys can be read on this page, if there's anything else you want me to explain, simply ask. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 17:51, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
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::Come on, I know I didn't sound very nice, but don't worry about that. I talk worse with my own friends and family, yet we still all love each other ;) About Jugo, in case you didn't notice, I actually agree with you on the bullet points parts, I just don't get how using Sage Mode with "unnaturally absorbed natural energy" doesn't count.
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For "Senjutsu = or =/= Sage Mode???" part and Shima, Fukasaku and all, no one asks you to repeat yourself, we both have said everything we could on the topic, we just each interpret the same thing differently as bizarre as it is and I guess only third-party can set thing straight now. It's pretty much to other editors what they do, I'm not gonna change anything myself either, since as you said, it's there, serve yourselves. I just wouldn't like nothing being done at all, again--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:07, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
   
Could someone give an example of this? --[[User:ShounenSuki|ShounenSuki]] <sup>([[User_talk:ShounenSuki|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/ShounenSuki|contribs]])</sup> 00:00, September 27, 2009 (UTC)
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I've simply reached a point where the whole issue became too convoluted for me to understand, so my reaction to this has defaulted to "yeah sure, whatever". [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 18:40, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
   
:It pretty much says that Sasuke listens to Jugo and ignores others. [[User:GohanRULEZ|Sting! TenRyuoh!]] 04:36, September 27, 2009 (UTC)
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:Elve-kun, I'm not angry at you or anyone. It's just that I tend to know my stuff and my explanations of such things are generally accepted by the majority, at least in the German fandom. I'm not used to people opposing my knowledge, as arrogant as that may sound.
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:The whole issue boils down to one thing: There are people with special bodies (Jugo, his clan and Kabuto) and people without special bodies (Naruto, Jiraiya). Both are able to draw in natural energy, but only those with control over the kneaded Senchakra can enter Sage Mode. If you have no control over the Senchakra and a special body, you go wild. If you have no control over the Senchakra and no special body, you turn to stone. As I said a million times already, Sage Mode is not the state of having Senchakra in ones body. That was never stated, as far as I know. Sage Mode is the state one can enter if he has control over Senchakra and, if he has a special body, control over that body. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 19:00, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
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::"Hugs" that's nice of you to say and to admit one's own arrogance takes character, kudos. But to me: [http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/User:ShounenSuki/Third_Databook_Translations#Sennin_Mode_.28p._279.29 this says] Senchakra = Sage Mode :P I'm not kidding you, if I read it backwards or from any angle, it just does. Do you have a German or English versions of the databook? Because translation word-by-word from one language into another can result in loss of intended meaning and it also depends on each of our own interpretation and understanding of context--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:11, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Ah well, the concept of Seelentau can't go without arrogance, that's been established over the years.
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:::The German version says basically the same: "In the decisive battle against Pain, Jiraiya shows himself in the shape of this sage technique.". Everything after that is about Senjutsu in general, as it is in the Japanese original. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 19:17, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
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::::But it's the rest of it what says Senjutsu chakra = Sage Mode to me. It says: "his body absorbs a great amount of nature energy. By kneading this with his own chakra, he gains the ability to use "senjutsu", rapidly increasing the level of all techniques, be it ninjutsu, taijutsu, or genjutsu!!" therefore Senchakra improves power of ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu, but isn't essentially that "Sage Mode" Senchakra empowering you? It doesn't talk about Senjutsu techniques in general as you say, otherwise it would be: "by kneading this with his own chakra, he gains the ability to use various senjutsu techniques" and would omit the empowerment part--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:24, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::But Sage Mode isn't mentioned after that. It's stated that the Senchakra empowers your techniques. How can the looks of somebody empower the techniques he's using? Even Fukasaku says that "Senjutsu" is what empowers Naruto's techniques. He doesn't even mention the Sage Mode, so I might even believe that that one sentence in the databook is the only sentence in the whole manga which directly says something about the Sage Mode. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 19:28, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::The whole entry is about Sage Mode my man. I think you are a little paranoid in this case. The general consensus is that being in state of your techniques be empowered with Senchakra is Sage Mode, otherwise in case you are right it would mean we don't know what Sage Mode even is, what's unlikely, because it would render it quite pointless. What you imply is that Sage Mode = having pigment and animal eyes and just that I get it.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:40, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
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But that's what the databook says. I'm not making this up. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 19:49, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
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:I think this topic needs to go to the forums, it's hard to read what the heck this is about >_> --[[User:Speysider|Speysider]] <sup><small>[[User_talk:Speysider|Talk Page]] | [[User:Speysider/Images|My Image Uploads]] | [[User:Speysider/Tabber Code|Tabber Code]] | [http://youtube.com/LPSajuuk Channel]</small></sup> 20:31, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
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::... essentially, the general consensus is that molding Senjutsu chakra makes one enter Sage Mode. To me, the databook says so, but for Seel, it says a different thing entirely as strange as it sounds. Just scroll a little bit above and read it for yourself and then tell me what you make of it. Seel says that empowering oneself with Senjutsu chakra isn't Sage Mode, only physical animal traits and pigment or something like that. Anyway, why are so many people lazy-readers? ._. I blame the society, it's just videogames, alcohol&drugs and races for "who gets STD or becomes pregnant/impregnates first" Back in my day, we actually read books... Well, I didn't either, but someone had to be the first, you know? :P EDIT: @Seel, no one accuses you of anything, I'm just positive that you purposely misinterpret it now just because Shima and Fukasaku aren't listed, so you '''want''' it to be true your way, because you are trying to come with an excuse, like Sage Mode being turning into animal and animals are already animals, so can't use Sage Mode, derp.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:25, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
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:::I couldn't care less about Ma and Pa for now. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 02:32, March 9, 2014 (UTC)
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::::At long last! And here I thought the day would never come for those little green pests to be gone. Then I guess all that's left is for someone to decipher [http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/User:ShounenSuki/Third_Databook_Translations#Sennin_Mode_.28p._279.29 the code written by our ancestry], wrought with ancient linguistics, mathematics and philosophy, long forgotten by modern history. What a formidable task if you ask me.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 07:55, March 9, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Sarcasm ain't gonna help nobody, bro. Maybe you should consider that we have more information from the manga which supports my view of things? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 10:42, March 9, 2014 (UTC)
   
::I know what it says, I don't lack reading comprehension... What I was asking if anyone could give an example of Sasuke listening to Jūgo's advice and ignoring the advice of Suigetsu and Karin. --[[User:ShounenSuki|ShounenSuki]] <sup>([[User_talk:ShounenSuki|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/ShounenSuki|contribs]])</sup> 00:36, September 29, 2009 (UTC)
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Such as? Because all the information provided and everything ever said and shown about Sage Mode says to me: "Hey Elveonora, I agree with you buddy" Like this, we are just competing to prove who has the larger testicles here. Mine aren't that big if you want to know and yours are likely bigger, but I heard that the larger they are the more they hurt when they get kicked--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:11, March 9, 2014 (UTC)
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:Fukasaku's explanation of Senjutsu is the exact same as the one in the databook, no Sage Mode mentioned. Orochimaru could knead Senchakra, but didn't enter Sage Mode. And yes, the frogs again. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 11:34, March 9, 2014 (UTC)
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::And the explanation says what it does as is written and understood here tho [[Sage Mode]] it did state it yesterday and will state so tomorrow as well and the meaning won't change once we are a few meters under the ground, arguing still with worms feeding on us either. I'm beginning to wonder by now if you really do believe your own words. I respect you (you know that I suppose) but just for a second try to consider you are mistaken here. Also they are toads, not frogs and you said you couldn't care less about them :P--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:18, March 9, 2014 (UTC)
   
Oh.The fight with Killerbee,you might need to check there,cuz I don't really remember,
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I've been asked to give my opinion, so here it comes. You are very right to say that Jugo is using senjutsu chakra and absorbing nature energy. However, Jugo absorbs it naturally, it isn't done through training. He has, apparently, no control over the absorption. Resulting in him rampaging, unless Sasuke calms him down. Jugo could learn to control his nature energy, and properly balance the senjutsu chakra in his body, turning him into a Sage. It's the control over the senjutsu chakra that makes a Sage, not the simple presence over the chakra. Like I said, he would need training. In truth, Jugo is no different than any other non-Sage, it's just he has experience with nature energy and senjutsu chakra, but he is not a Sage. Fukasaku and Shima, on the other hand, have gone through the training, to see nature energy and merge it in balance with their normal chakra. They are Sages, and are just as much Sages as Naruto. Sure they might not show the Sage Mode "transformation" but you have to remember they already have those characteristics, they ARE frogs. You can't become more "frog-e". Sage Transformation is an ability branching off of Jugo's ability to naturally absorb nature energy. It has nothing to so with Sage Mode. However, should the two abilities be merged, such as in Kabuto, the Sage Mode could continue to run indefinitely because the Sage is constantly bring in nature energy via Jugo's DNA. Any way, I think it's wrong to say Shima, Fukasaku, and Shima are not Sages. [[User:Omega64|Omega64]] ([[User talk:Omega64|talk]]) 16:22, March 9, 2014 (UTC)
   
[[User:GohanRULEZ|Sting! TenRyuoh!]] 00:43, September 29, 2009 (UTC)
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@Omega, Thanks for feedback, but you misunderstood the issue. I agree Jugo isn't a Sage in title/status and Seel doesn't disagree about the toads being Sages. He says tho, that the '''toads aren't using Sage Mode''' and that '''Sage Mode isn't Senjutsu chakra empowerment''' meaning '''the Sage Mode itself doesn't make the user and his/her techniques stronger and so on, but rather its just the animal changes and pigment alone''' from the way he words it, which in my opinion is farfetched. The way it's currently understood by majority (which I believe to be the correct understanding of it, because the way it's worded in the databook I do interpret it no differently than the way it's documented at the present) is that when one absorbs natural energy and mixes it with physical and spiritual energies, molding senjutsu chakra, the one enters Sage Mode. And by that, there's no reason for why shouldn't Shima, Fukasaku and Gamakichi also be users.
  +
What Seel directly or indirectly suggests is that Sage Mode = turning into animal, therefore animals can't use it since they can't become more animal as they already are.... ._. all of this conspiracy-crafting stems from the fact that the Third Databook omits them as users for whatever reason. But please read the entry yourself and tell me what it says to you Sage Mode is ('''Seel said the empowerment is about Senjutsu in general rather than the mode itself''' do you get such a vibe?). [http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/User:ShounenSuki/Third_Databook_Translations#Sennin_Mode_.28p._279.29 here it is]
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Also you aren't entirely correct about what Sage Transformation is, it's the bodily shapeshifting Jugo and his clan do, not their ability to absorb natural energy, which is unnamed and unexplained and highly likely a Kekkei Genkai. The point is, Sage Transformation occurs when Jugo molds Senjutsu chakra as a side-effect due to his special bodily fluids which trigger the transformation as a reaction to the senjutsu chakra. And since you seem to agree that molding Senjutsu chakra = Sage Mode, it means whenever Jugo uses Sage Transformation, he is also using Sage Mode by extension or rather in reverse, those with special bodily fluids like Jugo (and Kabuto too, since he has his cells) using Sage Mode results in them turning into X-Men rejects due to said fluids.
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This is essentially what the topic, or the many topics it consists of do all boil down to... thanks again.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:28, March 9, 2014 (UTC)
   
In the fight with Killer bee, he says to leave Karin because she's gonna to die from amateratsu, and sasuke ignores that. Just throwing it out there. --[[User:Hasofcd|Hasofcd]] ([[User talk:Hasofcd|talk]]) 01:33, November 3, 2009 (UTC)
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: I'm not going to give the same argument over and over again and pray that it works. Definition of insanity. I will simply say that I continue to agree with Seel, mainly because A) his points are direct translations from the manga, while Elve's main defense is "you don't interpret it like me, so you're all wrong", and B) his points are the same points I made the last time this was debated. Doesn't get much clearer than that. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 04:19, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
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::I don't use any translations of my own taken from my ass, nor do I make up new meanings for it just to suit my view or wishful thinking. I interpret it the same way it's currently written HERE on narutopedia for years, because there is no other interpretation to me. So thank you for status update, I just want to let you know I continue to disagree with Seel's sentiments just as you do continue to agree with his. It's Seelentau here who says something different than the majority of Naruto fandom, so I'm gonna just leave it at that. And before: "just because majority thinks x doesn't make x true" well, ShounenSuki sensei understood it the same way I do if that means anything. But go on, I won't bite, remove Shima and Fukasaku as Sage Mode users and rewrite Sage Mode article into Animal Transformation for all I care--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:43, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Cursed Seal timeline ==
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The funny thing is, Suki-senpai did a "New Years Facts Checking" a few years ago, correcting stuff that was widely accepted as the truth until then, and nobody ever doubted him. I'm doing the same with things like Senninka, Enton and Ten Tail's Chakra, only on a more frequent basis. But everyone and their neighbour is doubting me. :( [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 11:45, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
yo yo first time posting here ever and well i have a bit of a matter to discus
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:The fact checking was mostly related to wrong translations, not about disputing widely accepted interpretations. Your translation is the same as his, just for some reason you see something else written there :P @Foxie, you can be a cool guy, but I don't like you exactly in situations like this when you are in the opposition just because a person you worship says something makes you obliged to agree with it as if it were a scripture. Prove me wrong what you think is your own opinion and understanding of it rather than zealotry--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:55, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
jugo orignated the curse seal corect? if's that's true then how did anko get one. i mean by time anko had hers jugo must have been signifcantly younger then when orchimaru aproched him. and before orchimaru met kiddimaru.
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::I was just ''incredibly'' lazy. Also this discussion = @_@ to me. I so confused.
and yet sasuke and anko have the same curse seal. isn't this a contuality error? i mean recently the anime showed kiddmaru as a younger kid with jugo making it seem that the curse seal thing that orchimaru got must have happend sometime in the last ten years or so. if that's true wouln't that recent scean be an error by the animators?
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::Can't we just make this article about the uncontrolled absorbsion/body freakout Jugo's clan does and specifically state that the only difference between this and Sage Mode is that Sages actually try?
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::Please?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 11:56, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
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:::You still confused. Seelentau says Sage Mode isn't what it currently states here [[Sage Mode]] and that non-human users of Senjutsu don't use Sage Mode. The general consensus is that when an individual molds Senjutsu chakra, his or her body enters an empowered state called Sage Mode. Seelentau says it's wrong, that's the issue.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:18, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
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::::: /cry --[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 12:25, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
   
to sum up all i want to know is how anko got her curse seal if orchimaru didn't meet jugo till after her left konoha {{unsigned|Ekim72|23:11, 28 September 2009 (UTC)}}
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Yes, I'm short of shedding tears myself.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:37, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
   
:We have no idea when Jūgo joined Orochimaru, nor when Anko received her Cursed Seal. Unless we know these details, we cannot speak of any continuity errors. --[[User:ShounenSuki|ShounenSuki]] <sup>([[User_talk:ShounenSuki|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/ShounenSuki|contribs]])</sup> 00:36, September 29, 2009 (UTC)
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Maybe [http://www.qpic.ws/images/unbenanntnmn.png this] helps? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|]]</sup> 13:02, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
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:That isn't very helpful since again, I don't disagree with you on almost all of that (except your understanding of Juinka) You say balance over the senjutsu chakra leads to Sage Mode. Yet Jiraiya didn't have balance and was a user of Sage Mode, but Jugo ain't one you say. That's completely illogical. We disagree on what Sage Mode is and that's the source of all the arguments. To me, the databook says anyone who molds himself/herself Senjutsu chakra is a user of Sage Mode, as long as he/she has large enough chakra to use it of course. If it's perfect or imperfect depends on the balance, but it's not that only perfect balance equals Sage Mode. Sage Mode I consider to be a parent technique to Senninka, therefore users of the latter are also using the former, because Senninka requires Senjutsu chakra and Senjutsu chakra = Sage Mode, if there's enough of it and the user has large enough chakra.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:21, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
== Curse Seal transplant ==
 
 
Shouldn't Jugo's transfer of flesh be a jutsu of somesort? --[[User:Hasofcd|Hasofcd]] ([[User talk:Hasofcd|talk]]) 04:36, October 4, 2009 (UTC)
 
 
I think so...Then again,it could just be another power granted by the curse mark. Not alot is know about the curse mark.
 
 
[[User:GohanRULEZ|Sting! TenRyuoh!]] 05:41, October 4, 2009 (UTC)
 
 
== Chakra cannons ==
 
 
Shouldn't his chakra cannon jutsu be listed? Ch 462, pg 4-5--[[User:Hasofcd|Hasofcd]] ([[User talk:Hasofcd|talk]]) 05:50, November 2, 2009 (UTC)
 
:It's not a named technique, and it's part of his Cursed Seal, the mention at the abilities section is enough. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 13:42, November 2, 2009 (UTC)
 
 
== Jutsu ==
 
 
Why have so many of Jugo's Cursed Seal abilities been given their own pages? Aren't they all part of the Cursed Seal? --[[User:Enoki911|Enoki911]] ([[User talk:Enoki911|talk]]) 05:34, December 15, 2009 (UTC)Enoki911
 
:There's been an explosion of articles on unnamed... stuff, recently. We'll see just how unique they are whenever the fourth databook comes out. '''''~[[User:Snapper2|Snapper]][[User talk:Snapper2|T]][[Special:Contributions/Snapper2|o]]''''' 05:49, December 15, 2009 (UTC)
 
 
== Jyuugo or Juugo? ==
 
 
I think its Jyuugo.
 
 
Tv Tokyo
 
 
[http://www.tv-tokyo.co.jp/anime/naruto/chara.html]
 
 
3º Databook
 
 
[http://static.mangahelpers.com/raws/databook3/japflap/088-089%20-%20Juugo.jpg]
 
 
ユ<-- Yu
 
{{unsigned|213.60.189.241}}
 
 
:You should read up on the Hepburn romanisation system. ''ジュ'' is rendered as ''ju''. --[[User:ShounenSuki|ShounenSuki]] <sup>([[User_talk:ShounenSuki|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/ShounenSuki|contribs]])</sup> 13:54, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
== KKG? ==
 
 
Seeing as Juugo is the source of the curse seals and they being caused by enzymes in his body, should we label this a Kekkei Genkai or Hiden?[[User:Saimaroimaru|Saimaroimaru]] ([[User talk:Saimaroimaru|talk]]) 05:48, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
 
:As I understand the term, it has to be inheritable, and by that they mean reproductively, not having someone extracting an enzyme from you and replicating an incomplete form of it. [[User:Thomas Finlayson|Thomas Finlayson]] ([[User talk:Thomas Finlayson|talk]]) 05:54, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
 
::Wrong by your logic Wood Release isn't a KKG and yet is labeled as one.[[User:Saimaroimaru|Saimaroimaru]] ([[User talk:Saimaroimaru|talk]]) 05:56, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
 
:Who said Jūgo cursed seal was not inheritable? All that I have heard is it is an unique ability that orochimaru discovered in Jūgo. - [[User talk:Simant|S<small>im</small>A<small>nt</small>]] 06:18, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
 
By isolating specific enzyemes in his body.Sounds like KKG to me.[[User:Saimaroimaru|Saimaroimaru]] ([[User talk:Saimaroimaru|talk]]) 06:52, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
 
:When they were talking about KKG they meant "natural" reproduction. Notice also it was incomplete, Oro may have merely learned the chemical makeup of the protein and made a near replica of it. [[User:Thomas Finlayson|Thomas Finlayson]] ([[User talk:Thomas Finlayson|talk]]) 00:54, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
 
::How do you know he wasn't born with it? Incomplete? No it wasn't he didn't have control of the murderous urges it gave him, Oroichimaru manufactured a form that made those who gained a copying of it less aggressive than Juugo.[[User:Saimaroimaru|Saimaroimaru]] ([[User talk:Saimaroimaru|talk]]) 13:45, June 10, 2010 (UTC)
 
:::I say he "was" born with it. The copys were incomplete which means that the protein that Oro made was unable to meld perfectly with the other bodies or was not a good enough copy. Moreever, the amount of insane people with curse marks that we saw at that prison implies that the mental part was involved. [[User:Thomas Finlayson|Thomas Finlayson]] ([[User talk:Thomas Finlayson|talk]]) 17:37, June 10, 2010 (UTC)
 
:I'd go insane in one of oro's prisons.... - [[User talk:Simant|S<small>im</small>A<small>nt</small>]] 18:41, June 10, 2010 (UTC)
 
Sounds like A KKG to me seeing as people with Sharingan implants have drawbacks.When I mean not as crazy I'm not as bipolar, the dude has a rep for it. Also if born thats means KKG. Thank you for defeating your own argument.[[User:Saimaroimaru|Saimaroimaru]] ([[User talk:Saimaroimaru|talk]]) 20:02, June 10, 2010 (UTC)
 
:Please explain the logic behind your last statement. And do not forget the part where you say that puting an eye in is the same as putting in a protein capable of accelerating chemcial reactions, especially one of such diverse ability (a super enzyme even since it is omni, not mono) and how being born with something is the same as being able to pass it on. [[User:Thomas Finlayson|Thomas Finlayson]] ([[User talk:Thomas Finlayson|talk]]) 00:29, June 11, 2010 (UTC)
 
I think it is a Kekkei Genkai. And I'm also almost sure that Kekkei Genkai don't have to be inheritable, after all, Tsunade doesn't have Wood Release. It can't be Hiden because Hiden techniques are taught.
 
-[[User:KonohaSunaKiriKumoIwa|KonohaSunaKiriKumoIwa]] ([[User talk:KonohaSunaKiriKumoIwa|talk]]) 22:16, July 4, 2010 (UTC)
 
:well we can't put up speculations maybe in future Jugo's character will be explored more --[[User:Cerez365|Cerez365]] ([[User talk:Cerez365|talk]]) 12:31, July 5, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
== A Mutant ==
 
 
[[Talk: Mutations]]
 
To leave it open.[[User:Thomas Finlayson|Thomas Finlayson]] ([[User talk:Thomas Finlayson|talk]]) 02:51, June 10, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
== It's unusual because its rare? Who said Kishimoto understood real world biology? ==
 
 
No one said he did, but this site is supposed to provide information about the Narutoverse, correct? And this is the best way to do it. Moreover, explaining a bit on what the enzyme does helps make it more clear how he is capable of such amazing abilities.
 
:The origion of all his techniques also needs to be clear. [[User:Thomas Finlayson|Thomas Finlayson]] ([[User talk:Thomas Finlayson|talk]]) 05:29, June 12, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
=== The Enzyme ===
 
Jūgo's body is highly unusual because it produces an enzyme of previously unheard of ability. While most proteins of this nature are only capable of effecting certain molecules, only one type period, this one is apparently capable of affecting a wide variety which allows his body to undergo a staggering number of transformations which to all appearances appear only limited by his immagination and his energy levels.
 
----
 
:You want to add that it is "highly unusual because ... previously unheard of." How is that helpful? Also, you are guessing that about what limited his transformations. Also "one is apparently capable" sounds like speculation to me. - [[User talk:Simant|S<small>im</small>A<small>nt</small>]] 05:37, June 12, 2010 (UTC)
 
::I checked the Japanese manga and it never actually says that Jūgo has a special enzyme. Instead it says that Orochimaru developed an enzyme from Jūgo's bodily fluids. --[[User:ShounenSuki|ShounenSuki]] <sup>([[User_talk:ShounenSuki|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/ShounenSuki|contribs]])</sup> 13:22, June 12, 2010 (UTC)
 
:::Ouch, that is a difference. Could you put that up what they said? That misconception seems to have been going around for a bit. [[User:Thomas Finlayson|Thomas Finlayson]] ([[User talk:Thomas Finlayson|talk]]) 19:02, June 12, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
==Stats==
 
Where can I view Jugo's ninja stats? In fact where can I view his teammates as well? 'cept sasuke, his I can see, but shouldn't Jugo and the others from taka have stats? {{unsigned|98.193.53.160}}
 
:Jugo, Karin and Suigetsu didn't have their stats revealed in the third databook. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 04:50, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
is jugo even a ninja i mean he was never trained or anything right?[[Special:Contributions/81.10.220.248|81.10.220.248]] ([[User talk:81.10.220.248|talk]]) 19:50, October 19, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
== Stuck in his cell ==
 
 
Despite his powers in 2nd state and against Killerbee, Jugo was still [http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/522/11 stuck] in his cell, so should we say his powers are not strong enough to get out of thick walls and metal bars before guards did anything? [[User:Thomas Finlayson|Thomas Finlayson]] ([[User talk:Thomas Finlayson|talk]]) 02:34, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 
:Suigetsu and Jūgo were waiting for the perfect opportunity to escape, with little or no guards around. When that moment was there, they decided to go for a more stealthy route, rather than just break the cell open and alert anyone still in the vicinity. It says nothing about Jūgo's strength. —[[User:ShounenSuki|ShounenSuki]] <sup>([[User_talk:ShounenSuki|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/ShounenSuki|contribs]] | [[User:ShounenSuki#Translations|translations]])</sup> 03:31, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
== Is Jūgo even a ninja? ==
 
 
All his abilities come from his natural Curse Mark, are they even jutsu? That, and he has never accomplished an official mission and doesn't possess any 'tools'... Is he even a ninja? --[[User:Hasofcd|Hasofcd]] ([[User talk:Hasofcd|talk]]) 05:11, January 12, 2011 (UTC)
 
:Yes, Jugo is a ninja [[User:Fangzntalonz|Fangzntalonz]] ([[User talk:Fangzntalonz|talk]]) 06:18, January 12, 2011 (UTC)
 
::I'm not sure he's a ninja, not an official one at least. It was never said he had any formal training. He went to [[Orochimaru]] seeking help, who took his enzymes for his [[Orochimaru's Juinjutsu|Juinjutsu]] and then locked him up in the Northern Base. '''''~ [[User:Fmakck|Fmakck]] - [[User talk:Fmakck|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Fmakck|Contributions]]''''' 06:30, January 12, 2011 (UTC)
 
:::He's a bit of a border case, like Karin. —[[User:ShounenSuki|ShounenSuki]] <sup>([[User_talk:ShounenSuki|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/ShounenSuki|contribs]] | [[User:ShounenSuki#Translations|translations]])</sup> 07:39, January 12, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
Storm 2 is revealed that the seal is given the name Juugo Kekkei Shisui. Should be edited? {{unsigned|189.124.26.22}}
 
:Considering it comes from you, who tried to pass a game source for Shion's future telling, despite her being a movie only character, I say no. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 18:32, February 19, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
There is no way in hell that Jugo is a ninja.--[[Special:Contributions/69.250.227.61|69.250.227.61]] ([[User talk:69.250.227.61|talk]]) 02:20, March 19, 2011 (UTC)
 
:He can use chakra, I think that's enough, even if he's likely not to have had any formal instruction. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 03:04, March 19, 2011 (UTC)
 
::Yup^ ''''' ~ [[User:Fmakck|Fmakck<sup>©</sup>]] → [[User talk:Fmakck|Talk]] → [[Special:Contributions/Fmakck|Contributions]] ~''''' 03:09, March 19, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
You don't have to be a ninja to use chakra.The Samurai's have proven that.--[[User:Shinobi Master|Shinobi Master]] ([[User talk:Shinobi Master|talk]]) 04:16, March 19, 2011 (UTC)
 
:Forgot about that, but even then, he isn't known to have had any sort of training. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 18:44, March 19, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
But the samurais used chakra when team taka attacked the five kage summit{{unsigned|82.24.187.215}}
 
 
== 15 ==
 
 
Doesn't Jūgo mean 15?--[[Special:Contributions/74.105.224.17|74.105.224.17]] ([[User talk:74.105.224.17|talk]]) 22:53, May 9, 2011 (UTC)
 
:Not the way it's written. It's just a homophone. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:04, May 9, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
== kekkei genkai ==
 
 
Wait, isn't jugp's ability a kekkei genkai? The anime said that Orochimaru got his cursed seals from Jugo, and it said he's the original. {{unsigned|76.92.243.71}}
 
 
Oh for the love of... Juugo's ability is clearly a Kekkei Genkai, it is a genetic ability, something his body does, it can't be copied without obtaining biological matter like the other KKG which have done this (Sharingan, Byakugan, Wood Release), not to mention, aside from Orochimaru's own twisted additions to it (Weird Psychotic Mind Trip) The Success rate is noted as 1 in 10 and Juugo was only capable of healing Sasuke because he was compatible with the Cursed seal, which would imply that on average only one out of ten people are genetically compatible with it. It's no diferent from infusing an organ, which is essentially the idea with people gaining the other KKG. --[[User:Hawkeye2701|Hawkeye2701]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye2701|talk]]) 06:49, January 2, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
So I support this idea of Jugo possessing a kekkai genkai and listing his powers as such. --[[Special:Contributions/59.103.213.139|59.103.213.139]] ([[User talk:59.103.213.139|talk]]) 08:32, January 2, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Except that no canon source ever said that his powers are a kekkei genkai. While I agree that his abilities fall under the category of kekkei genkai, until a canon source calls those abilities kekkei genkai, we don't. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 12:42, January 2, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
I think Jugo's power are similar to Wood release ... no known relatives have it, its unique to them though still genetic.
 
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:26, January 2, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
^Just saying, Jugo's familial relations have not been elaborated upon. :) [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 19:47, January 2, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
It's a unique ability that only Jugo can use if it was a hijutsu then it would have been clarified, the article on Kekkei Genkai says: "Kekkei genkai and their related techniques cannot be taught to or copied by others."Even Sasuke can't copy it, and if he could then he wouldn't go to Jugo to create Taka. [[Special:Contributions/119.73.77.208|119.73.77.208]] ([[User talk:119.73.77.208|talk]]) 12:27, January 6, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Well i'm not going to discount it being a kekkei genkai with somewhat special/unorthodox properties. If you look at it it's the same as gouging someone's eye out I suppose.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 12:32, January 6, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
And? Do you agree with it or not? [[Special:Contributions/119.73.77.208|119.73.77.208]] ([[User talk:119.73.77.208|talk]]) 12:37, January 6, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:I agree that we should wait for an official source to tell us something like that. He might very well be a mutant or something.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 12:42, January 6, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
So we wait for his abilities to be listed as such? Hashraima and Kimimaro were mutants in each their respective clans. [[Special:Contributions/119.73.69.228|119.73.69.228]] ([[User talk:119.73.69.228|talk]]) 12:50, January 6, 2012 (UTC)
 
:Though that's not the way I intended for my statement to be interpreted, the two you mentioned were stated implicitly to have kekkei genkai. Arguing whether or not other members of their respective clans had those kekkei genkai is an entirely different matter especially with the Senju.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 13:01, January 6, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:I see your point but it is still genetic, in his enzymes. I say we list them as such until further notice. [[Special:Contributions/210.2.185.244|210.2.185.244]] ([[User talk:210.2.185.244|talk]]) 13:06, January 6, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Just so you know, hiden techniques can't be copied by Sharingan either. And from ShounenSuki's translation, Jūgo doesn't have an enzyme which allows him to do that, Orochimaru developed an enzyme based on Jūgo's body fluids that allows others to change like he does. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 13:38, January 6, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Uzumaki? ==
 
 
Is Juugo a member of the Uzumaki clan? It was just revealed that Karin is part of it in the latest chapter, and he had orange hair, and I think you can see him in the picture of people. [[Special:Contributions/173.27.154.197|173.27.154.197]] ([[User talk:173.27.154.197|talk]]) 13:41, March 21, 2012 (UTC)K
 
:Um, no. On both accounts [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 13:41, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
:: Especially since he was mentioned belonging to different clan and having connections to a different set of techs/chakra.Also, Uzumaki are known for their red hair not orange.[[User:Umishiru|Umishiru]] ([[User talk:Umishiru|talk]]) 13:45, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
::: But Naruto has yellow hair and he's an Uzumaki. But, I suppose I can see your other point... [[Special:Contributions/173.27.154.197|173.27.154.197]] ([[User talk:173.27.154.197|talk]]) 13:48, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
::::[[kabuto]] said something about "jyugo clan" is that jugos?
 
:::::Also, you mentioned his orange hair like it was the defining trait so I corrected it.I would wait for ShounenSuki ‎ to properly translate it before we go off making new clan articles.[[User:Umishiru|Umishiru]] ([[User talk:Umishiru|talk]]) 14:11, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
What kind of question is this? Naruto has yellow hair that he inherited from his father- yes he has one O_O. Naruto would be considered a member of the Namikaze clan as well of there was one because it's where his parents descend from. Direct descendants from the clan have red hair. Jugo was mentioned to have a separate clan.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 14:18, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Red hair is common in Uzumaki, not everyone has them ... maybe only "pure bloods" or something.
 
Naruto is Uzumaki and is blonde.
 
By this logic, Gaara is also one.
 
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:35, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Natural Energies ==
 
 
The way Jugo, Naruto and Kabuto looked after absorbing natural energy is different, so do they absorb different types of natural energy? Or is just the way they learned (or inherited?) the technique for absorbing certain energy? [[Special:Contributions/199.5.204.100|199.5.204.100]] ([[User talk:199.5.204.100|talk]]) 17:18, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Jugo's clan absorbs Nature Energy from the nature around them.
 
Naruto has learned this on toad mountain
 
Kabuto inside of snake cave.
 
I think it depends on from where they learned it.
 
Jugo or his clan have no Sage Mode as far as we know, they just absorb the energies and mutate.
 
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:46, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
:While i doubt that jugo's abilities have anything to do with Sage Mode, i believe that with the newest information, the mentions of the curse seal in his infobox and the title of the ability section should be changed to reffer as natural energy absortion, as the curse seal is only a derivative created by Orochimaru and not a natural ability [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 19:31, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
::I sorta question why it's called that at all. It should be renamed to something clan related though. Since this is more than likely a kekkei genkai.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 19:36, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:::So, should we create a page for his clan's ability (kekkei genkai or whatever) so we can distinguished between them? [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 19:44, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
::::Haven't a clue on this front.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 19:53, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
:::::IMO, yes. There should be an article for every part of Naruto. --[[User:Speysider|Speysider]] ([[User_talk:Speysider|Talk Page]]) 19:58, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
I'm reluctant to call it a kekkei genkai for now. I think it would be easier, and it makes more sense, but I wouldn't call it a kekkei genkai. We also need to see what exactly is this going to be. Is it a description of the absorption of nature transformation, will there be a separate article for the transformations? There's also the issue of the article. We know the Uzumaki have powerful life force, but we don't have an article for that. We know Gaara and Shukaku have sand control, but those are already explained in their articles, and a bit on the sand (tool) article. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 01:11, March 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
I do feel as though Juugo's transformations should have their own page. As it was a general ability of his Clan. Due to their natural affinity to absorb Natural Energy, akin to that of the Ryuchi Cave Sage Mode. Which overtime changed them, and gave them that power. And it was from that power, that Orochimaru created the Cursed Seal. All of which have their true origins in the Sage Mode of Ryuchi Cave. And to be honest it is not accurate to call Juugo's power. The Cursed Seal. Which on some abilities is referred to. But should simply be called Curse/Cursed Mode. As it's a Seal, that the power is stored in, for Orochimaru's followers. That is not the case with Juugo and his Clan. And also. I feel that: Orochimaru's Cursed Seal. Juugo's Curse Powers. And Sage Mode, specifically of Ryuchi Cave, as it is that sort of energy that changed Juugo's Clan. Should all be linked together in their corresponding articles. ([[Special:Contributions/79.66.90.196|79.66.90.196]] ([[User talk:79.66.90.196|talk]]) 17:26, April 13, 2012 (UTC))
 
:Your sentence structuring is very awkward. At the moment, there's no need to make an article for his ability. Much like Gaara's sand, all the information available is already in his article. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 00:56, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Jugo's clan. ==
 
 
Hi, I just want to say that jugo clan's name, is Jyugo. Kabuto said it on the last chapter, you can check it here if you want [http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/579/16]. THANKYOU [[User:Small brother|Small brother]] ([[User talk:Small brother|talk]]) 13:09, March 23, 2012 (UTC)
 
:[[Talk:Jūgo's Clan#Name|Name]]. [[User:Jacce|Jacce]] | [[User talk:Jacce|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jacce|Contributions]] 13:29, March 23, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Possible trigger for murderous personality? ==
 
 
It's very easy to notice that, when in his "normal" state, Juugo is very calm and gentle to the point of having various animals flock to him (also able to communicate with them). I noticed in episode 125, after Juugo received information from a bird, Suigetsu spoke rudely about animals before taking the opportunity to diss Karin. At that point, Juugo's murderous side began to emerge before Sasuke subdued it. Could it be that one possible trigger for those states is when people belittle/mistreat animals, for whom Juugo has a strong affinity? [[Special:Contributions/65.92.163.5|65.92.163.5]] ([[User talk:65.92.163.5|talk]]) 06:25, April 8, 2012 (UTC)
 
:It's already been uncovered that Jūgo and his [[Jūgo's clan|clan's]] murderous intents stem from the uncontrollable surge of power from their absorption of [[Natural Energy]].--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 11:43, April 8, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Jugo's Transformations ==
 
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it only stated that Jugo's murderous impulses are a trait of his clan, not his actual transformations? Unless of course the translations I've read were inaccurate, which is a definite possibility.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 09:13, May 20, 2012 (UTC)
 
:They're kinda linked. I don't think people from his clan could have one without having the other. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 16:20, May 20, 2012 (UTC)
 
::The clan members were also sown as "mutated" silhouettes not as humans.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 17:19, May 20, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Sensor ==
 
 
Question...given the information regarding Jugo's abilities, and how they are related to natural energy, plus how he was able to discern that Orochimaru was releasing Kabuto's Sage Mode and absorbing his chakra instead of stealing his powers, and how natural energy/senjutsu users usually have this ability, does this make Jugo a sensor-type ninja? [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 06:09, July 14, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
its possible, but if he had sensor skills he certainly would have shown (or at least hinted to) them by now.[[Special:Contributions/71.71.58.236|71.71.58.236]] ([[User talk:71.71.58.236|talk]]) 06:13, July 14, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan
 
 
I think his sensory abilities are akin and limited to (well not in his case) the fact that he uses natural energy just like toad Sages.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 11:59, July 14, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Chakra Sensing ==
 
 
Anyone else notice that Juugo has display a limited ability to sense chakra? Such as when Orochimaru absorbed his chakra from Kabuto. Juugo was able to sense that he only took his own chakra. [[Special:Contributions/71.237.133.173|71.237.133.173]] ([[User talk:71.237.133.173|talk]]) 19:51, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
No. It was only do to it being natural energy that was absorbed. Even naruto can do that, but do we classify him as a sensor? No.[[Special:Contributions/98.26.246.10|98.26.246.10]] ([[User talk:98.26.246.10|talk]]) 20:09, November 20, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan
 

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decision time Edit

Continuing here from the super long topic at Senninka's page. So can we just list Jugo as a user of Sage Mode or merge the two and call it a day?--Elveonora (talk) 11:48, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

...So Jugo is a sage now?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:43, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
...No. Only those who've mastered the Sage Mode (either through Naruto-like training or Kabuto-like means) are sages. Those who can knead Senchakra, but can't enter Sage Mode because they don't have the right body or loose control over themselves, aren't sages. Seelentau 愛 12:50, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
I also say no. Isn't a Sage someone who was taught Senjutsu or perhaps trained it by himself even? Other than having Senjutsu chakra, Jugo doesn't know any "Sage Technique:" or "Sage Art:" not to mention he doesn't even know how to absorb natural energy since his body does it for him. He is as much of a Sage as Curse Mark wielders are, save the fact he manipulates the Senjutsu chakra himself to use Sage Transformation, which is a Sage Mode--Elveonora (talk) 12:54, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
@Seel, I don't think it's about mastery, otherwise Jiraiya wouldn't be a Sage.--Elveonora (talk) 12:55, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
Mastery as in "opposed to whatever Jugo's and Orochimaru's problem is", not in "complete and perfect control". Sage Transformation can be used to enter Sage Mode, yes. This means, we have three ST user: Kabuto, Jugo (+ clan) and Obito (somewhat unclear), but only Kabuto can also use Sage Mode. Seelentau 愛 13:01, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

Since Sage Transformation is an extension of Sage Mode, that in my opinion is enough to list him as a user. For status, short story is, Jugo can mold Senjutsu chakra himself. It's arguable if that is enough to classify him as a Sage--Elveonora (talk) 13:04, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, for some reason you consider only those who perfectly balance Senjutsu chakra as true Sage Mode users. But that isn't a requirement, otherwise Jiraiya again wouldn't be a user--Elveonora (talk) 13:05, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
Sage Transformation is what the special bodies do to Jugo and his kin (as stated by Jugo). If one has gained control over his body at the Ryuchido (as stated by Kabuto), he can use the Sage Transformation to enter Sage Mode (as stated by Kabuto). Kabuto can do so, Jugo can't. Kabuto is a sage, Jugo is not.
It isn't a requirement, yes. But I never stated that it is. Of course he's a sage. Seelentau 愛 13:10, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

Again, we consider Jiraiya a user of Sage Mode. Jugo isn't any different from him, he can create Senjutsu chakra but can't completely balance it, therefore when he uses Sage Transformation he is by all means using Incomplete Sage Mode as well--Elveonora (talk) 13:14, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

He is different from Jiraiya in terms of how he absorbs natural energy. Really, I think if it wasn't for Jūgo's body, he'd be an imperfect sage, too. But there's the difference between accessing sage mode through normal means, like Naruto and Jiraiya do, and accessing it through a modified body, like Jugo and Kabuto do. Seelentau 愛 13:20, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
How they absorb natural energies is a determining factor if they are of Sage status or not, not if they are using the mode itself. Jugo still has to mold Senjutsu chakra and doing so makes him enter Sage Mode, or rather Sage Transformation hence special bodily fluids. By the same logic, each time Shima&Fukasaku were absorbing natural energy for Jiraiya, he wasn't in those instances user of Sage Mode. Molding and manipulating Senjutsu chakra = Sage Mode, it's not about knowing how to absorb natural energy, but that's how I see it--Elveonora (talk) 13:52, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
"Molding and manipulating Senjutsu chakra = Sage Mode" - and here's the problem. According to the databooks, even though Fukasaku and Shima were absorbing natural energy and kneading senchakra, they aren't users of the sage mode. This makes me think that "Molding and manipulating Senjutsu chakra =/= Sage Mode", which is furthermore supported by the fact that Sage Mode is a Senjutsu, but not every Senjutsu has Sage Mode as a parent technique. Seelentau 愛 14:00, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
I am completely confused.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 14:14, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, I'm aware that databooks don't list Fukasaku and Shima as Sage Mode users, but we do. The books are not always correct, you know this. There's manga evidence that molding Senjutsu chakra = Sage Mode as I mentioned the toad oil. The moment Naruto's body started absorbing natural energy, he started gaining toad characteristics. He didn't have to say "ACTIVATE!" and perform a hand sign. For "not every Senjutsu has Sage Mode as a parent" We are yet to see anyone use Senjutsu outside of Sage Mode--Elveonora (talk) 14:21, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

"Simant asked me for my input in this discussion. As explained in chapter 418 and in the third databook, Sage Mode is the state where one has moulded senjutsu chakra inside oneself. The state where one can use senjutsu and has had their body vitalised by the senjutsu chakra. Using this definition, both Fukasaku and Shima are capable of using Sage Mode, as they have clearly shown the ability to use senjutsu. --ShounenSuki"--Elveonora (talk) 14:24, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

Suki-senpai has my utmost respect, you all know that. But if we use an old definition on information that was provided after the definition was established, we can only lose. Things change. Information changes. Facts change. Please don't measure new things by old standards. Seelentau 愛 14:37, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
Since when did anything change? I must have missed that. I'm positive we haven't been given anything new in that regard since "old definition on information" nor have we seen it done. When Naruto absorbs natural energy and then balances it with his physical and spiritual energies, thus molding senjutsu chakra, he enters Sage Mode, no hand seal done or anything. That's why I'm not sure why you come to the conclusion that molding Senjutsu chakra isn't equivalent of Sage Mode, other than Shima and Fukasaku not being credited in databook, which might be an error--Elveonora (talk) 14:43, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

Well, whatever comes from this topic is that either we list Jugo as a user or remove Shima, Fukasaku and Gamakichi, let the vote begin--Elveonora (talk) 14:48, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

Can't we just add the fact and remove everything else? :( Seelentau 愛 15:02, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

Well, let's look at the thing objectively. Both manga and databooks say that molding Senjutsu chakra activates Sage Mode, yet toads aren't listed for whatever reason. Logical conclusions:

  1. it's an error that they aren't listed
  2. just molding Senjutsu chakra doesn't activate Sage Mode

Looking at the fact that the definition fits with what the toads do means it's more likely to be an error OR.... and there's where facts stop, we could speculate that toads are in Senjutsu-enhanced state constantly and don't have to use mode, since they are "nature" but that's a speculation and in fact contradicts the fact they also have to gather natural energy to mold senjutsu chakra. Therefore it's an error, the safest route, just like Zabuza's age is an error, yet some yourself included speculate that the young boy who killed his classmate couldn't have been Zabuza rather than admitting calculation error on Kishi's part. That's my input, let's wait for others.--Elveonora (talk) 15:13, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

Unless there has been any new information revealed in the manga, after Shounen gave the definition, which I don't think there was; I would rather go with the former (i.e. Add Jūgo).--~UltimateSupreme 15:17, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
The thing is, Suki-senpai's words and his translation don't match. Check it. Seelentau 愛 15:23, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
They actually do, it says that using Senjutsu chakra increases power of ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu and as you know that's what Sage Mode is and the translation is about.--Elveonora (talk) 15:54, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

Regarding the toad issue, Fukasaku definitely entered an empowered state, but is it not possible it is only called Sage Mode when humans do it, hence the databook only listing Jiraiya? The toads don't change, after all, so it may not be considered a "mode" for them.--BeyondRed (talk) 16:28, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

No, they do not. The only sentence in the databook about the Sage Mode is "The form Jiraiya showed to use Senjutsu during his decisive battle with Pain.". Everything else is about Senjutsu. If Sage Mode and Senjutsu were one and the same, the very first sentence wouldn't discern between the form (Sage Mode) and Senjutsu. So no, according to the databook, Sage Mode and Senjutsu are two different things, with Sage Mode being a Senjutsu, of course. Also, Ma and Pa are not user of the Sage Mode, that was never stated anywhere and should not be added in the article, since it's obviously not correct. Seelentau 愛 16:58, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

It pretty much boils down to interpretation, I don't read it as suggesting any differentiation. It just says Sage Mode is Senjutsu. And "showed to use senjutsu" can actually be interpreted as Senjutsu use requiring Sage Mode activated--Elveonora (talk) 17:47, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

Somehow, it always comes down to interpretation when I discuss with you. But it's not our job to interpret. Please show me a source for Senjutsu = Sage Mode, I can't remember where that was stated. Seelentau 愛 17:56, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

Someone mind giving us lost and thoroughly confused people done bullet points? --Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 18:59, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

How else can "The form Jiraiya showed to use Senjutsu during his decisive battle with Pain" be interpreted other than:

  • the form uses senjutsu
  • or the form is required to use senjutsu

Where do you get the vibe that using Senjutsu chakra =/= Sage Mode? @Cerez, Seelentau stating that toads don't use Sage Mode because using Senjutsu isn't synonymous with using Sage Mode--Elveonora (talk) 19:06, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't matter where I get the vibes from. I need a proof that what you say is true. Nothing else. Seelentau 愛 19:29, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
...Toad's don't use Sage Mode. Senjutsu =/= Sage Mode. If it did, Orochimaru would be a user of Sage Mode... and he isn't. Vibes, interpretations, all that nonsense has nothing to do with it. The cold hard facts don't support it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 22:19, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, it goes both ways. I would like some proof as well. Everything we have been told what Sage Mode is was nothing but molding Senjutsu chakra. There's no evidence for otherwise, never was Sage Mode somehow activated. People just absorb natural energy, mold senjutsu chakra and they enter Sage Mode as a consequence of that, no hand seals or anything. Why Shima and Fukasaku weren't listed is for an other topic entirely. @TFF, well mister, we list them as users of Sage Mode for half a decade and suddenly "the cold hard facts don't support it" that's bizarre. Not sure why you bring Orochimaru, since has nothing to do with it. Orochimaru being capable of using Senjutsu means he knows how to absorb natural energy and mold Senjutsu chakra. The reason why he can't enter Sage Mode we were told is because he hasn't found a host body strong enough to wield it, so by all means and purposes, he is a user of Sage Mode, people like someone are just ignorant.--Elveonora (talk) 01:37, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

We're not an authority on anything. If Naruto was listed a user of Chidori on here for years, it makes it just as much bullcrap now as the day it was listed. Animals don't use Sage Mode. They use senjutsu, but again, Senjutsu =/= Sage Mode. I find it hard to believe Kishimoto would write an entry on Sage Mode and only list Jiraiya — when both Fukasaku and Shima had used Senjutsu in the same series of chapters — just for shits and giggles. As Seel said, Sage Mode is a type of Senjutsu, but the terms are not synonymous. And Elve, you really shouldn't be calling people ignorant when your usual rebuttal to arguments are founded, in your own words, in your "interpretation" of what is said or done, instead of what actually happened or was said. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 01:46, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

So why don't you remove them, since you "know" we are wrong? And it's interesting that despite your apparent knowledge of the mistake you hadn't cared to correct it until now that Seelentau said so. No offense, but borrowing head into one's backside isn't nice. But I guess go on, fix it. Wait, I guess you think it's not just a one man's decision, or two's to suddenly get rid of something that's been for many years considered by the majority to be a fact. By what difference would opinion of others even make since you two "know" it's wrong? So do you even want to argue about this, or are your minds already made up or something? Also you sound so sure of yourself Foxie with "animals don't use Sage Mode" ... why wouldn't they? Shima and Fukasaku are Sages and it's called Sage Mode, not Animal Mode. The databooks aren't without errors and yes, even Kishi's memory isn't eternal. Pain was drawn with Sharingan once. But how could Kishimoto make such a mistake, did he forget the difference between the two or just human factor happened and he unknowingly switched them in his subconsciousness while he was tired? Zabuza's age isn't fixed to this day, therefore the boy who killed his classmates wasn't him, it's a FACT!!! So let's make a new article for his younger lookalike. Same for Hayate, he couldn't have gone with Kakashi to the Academy, therefore he had a twin!!! I have proof!!! Kishimoto's own words!!! Because he never contradicts himself "sarcasm"--Elveonora (talk) 02:09, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

"Everything we have been told what Sage Mode is was nothing but molding Senjutsu chakra." - Source please. The databook doesn't say so, as proven above. What does the manga say? Seelentau 愛 07:04, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
Honestly, I read that whole thing and came up with the same reaction as Seel. You can whine and moan about what's been accepted for years and what not, but until I see where the manga says an animal can use Sage Mode, when Fukasaku's own description of Sage Mode doesn't fit what the toads do, and Kishimoto left them out of a listing on Sage Mode while describing a scene in the same paragraph in which, according to you, they were using Sage Mode, then yeah, you can write me a novel and I won't believe you. Your interpretations don't amount to a hill of beans. But, as Seel states, show us where the manga says the toads use Sage Mode. Show us where it says Senjutsu and Sage Mode are one in the same. At that point, I'll believe you, but until then, all you've got it a lot of personal conviction and whole lot of nothing as far as evidence goes. And no. I don't consider "we've documented it as fact for years!" to be proof of anything other than blatant ignorance on the community's part. I've been saying that since this debate cropped up back when we were arguing it about Gamakichi, so I don't know why you think I'm only saying something now because Seel has. Feel free to search Sage Mode (and perhaps Gamakichi? I can't remember if I brought it up there too) talk page archives (edit: Right here). You'll find that I was actually quite pissed that you guys actually arrived at that conclusion when both the manga and the databooks don't support it. Not only that, but you'll find several other like minded users (including Omnibender) who voiced alongside me that it was stupid, based on our information, to assume that to begin with. So yes. It should be removed. Because it isn't a fact. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 07:39, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
As a side note: If kneading Senchakra means, one is in Sage Mode, how come Madara could absorb Hashirama's Senchakra while the Senju wasn't in Sage Mode? How come Orochimaru could knead Senchakra, but failed to enter Sage Mode through Senninka because he missed the right body? Seelentau 愛 07:48, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

decision time: Bullet PointsEdit

Can someone please, for the uninitiated that have almost no way to follow this discussion, make a list of bullet points with the main arguments for this situation? Please?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 13:09, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

My argument is as follows:

  • Jūgo states that Kabuto's body, which he himself called Sage Mode, is the same as Jūgo's own transformation, named Sage Transformation. (ch. 593)
  • Sage Transformation is a transformation caused by a special body that absorbs natural energy, as explained by Kabuto. (ch. 579)
  • If you know how to knead Senchakra, but don't have the right body, you can't undergo the Sage Transformation, as explained by Kabuto. (ch. 579)
  • If you have the body and master it at the Ryūchidō, you can undergo Sage Transformation and enter the mode known as Sage Mode, as explained by Kabuto. (ch. 579)

From these statements I conclude that Sage Transformation is the ability to change your special body through absorbing natural energy and only if you master your special body, you can enter Sage Mode. If you don't gain control, you go berserk. This means that while both Jūgo and Kabuto are to be classified as Sage Transformation users, only Kabuto has to be classified as a Sage Mode user, too.
Everything about the frogs and Jiraiya's imperfect Sage Mode has nothing to do with this topic, since the way he enters Sage Mode is different (namely without the special body). Seelentau 愛 14:19, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

Are you two even serious? There's its entry from databook translated that says so and despite that, you ask for proof. Worst thing worst, we read the same text and yet you say it's not there. Either of us obviously has reading comprehension problems. Read again carefully: "his body absorbs a great amount of nature energy. By kneading this with his own chakra, he gains the ability to use "senjutsu", rapidly increasing the level of all techniques, be it ninjutsu, taijutsu, or genjutsu!!!" This sentence pretty much says kneading senjutsu chakra = sage mode and one must be of Neanderthal descent, ignorant, blind or having reading comprehension problems for it to convey any other meaning. The next thing you tell me is that it's not Sage Mode what improves ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjtsu and so on but some another Senjutsu technique with Sage Mode doing an another thing entirely. So it really is about interpretation and for some reason you two interpret what's written differently than it is written and of course, I expect you think the same about me, so we go on around in circles. Therefore we need more input, best from expert of linguistics. It really pains me to offend you like this, but know this, my pain is far greater than yours, I don't want to be right "joke" @Seel, we don't know and I can't answer that, neither can you, we can both only try to explain why that was. Nothing but my understanding of it and a possible explanation is that perhaps Hashirama's chakra levels are far greater than Madara's and Hashirama didn't have enough Senjutsu chakra molded for it to manifest as Sage Mode, while the same amount is enough for Madara. And you answered yourself, Orochimaru doesn't have the right host body, with put emphasis on host. Kabuto never stated "Orochimaru-sama's own body can't handle Senjutsu".

For the on original topic about Jugo part, I don't disagree with you, we say the same thing and understand it about the same. Except for some reason what in Jugo's case is an Imperfect Sage Mode isn't to you just because he doesn't absorb natural energy himself. Pretty much you say lack of mastery =/= shouldn't be listed as user with one breath and yet Jiraiya, who also didn't have mastery over it is okay just because he could absorb natural energy without special body. Why does the process how the natural energy is gathered is even a determining factor for you? It's about him using it, not being unable to use in a theoretical condition in case he didn't have special body, no IFs. EDIT: Yes, I'm positive the reason why Madara could absorb Hashirama's Senjutsu chakra and enter Sage Mode despite the latter lacking eye pigmentation and all is the very same why Obito also lacked the pigmentation, there was too lite Senjutsu chakra, but enough for Madara.--Elveonora (talk) 18:08, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

By the Twelve Elveonora, I was asking for bullet points to understand this topic, not three paragraphs @_@--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 19:13, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
That's actually bullet points from my point of view. To me the word by word translation from the databook states what I say it does. But read it yourself; what impression do you personally get from this?: ""his body absorbs a great amount of nature energy. By kneading this with his own chakra, he gains the ability to use "senjutsu", rapidly increasing the level of all techniques, be it ninjutsu, taijutsu, or genjutsu!!!"" directly from Databook's entry about Sage Mode. It says kneading senjutsu chakra = sage mode, unless improved ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu isn't sage mode and Kishimoto just talks about a different Senjutsu technique in Sage Mode entry for teh lulz without even explaining what Sage Mode is. So yes, the canon indeed says molding Senjutsu chakra = Sage Mode, unless myself and Kishi are retards of the finest caliber. The same thing is stated and seen in the manga. Someone just likes to make up conspiracy out of Toad Sages being omitted. They do nothing different from human Sages, but I admit that their cases is perhaps special, because the omission may or may not be an error. I think we should all head back on the original topic. We can start a topic about shima and fukasaku's usage elsewhere. Why it isn't possibly true for the toads is unknown, but Jugo is no toad. He is a human, molds Senjutsu chakra and enters Sage Transformation which is nothing but Sage Mode + bodily transformation caused by special fluids' reaction to senjutsu chakra. Position that "he doesn't absorb natural energy himself therefore shouldn't be considered a true user" is hardly logical and relevant in my opinion.--Elveonora (talk) 22:58, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

Bump, should be concluded asap because it's one of those things that keep hanging in the air for years.--Elveonora (talk) 14:20, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

By now, I don't even care anymore what you do with the information I provided you. I refuse to repeat myself again, every argument I gave you guys can be read on this page, if there's anything else you want me to explain, simply ask. Seelentau 愛 17:51, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
Come on, I know I didn't sound very nice, but don't worry about that. I talk worse with my own friends and family, yet we still all love each other ;) About Jugo, in case you didn't notice, I actually agree with you on the bullet points parts, I just don't get how using Sage Mode with "unnaturally absorbed natural energy" doesn't count.

For "Senjutsu = or =/= Sage Mode???" part and Shima, Fukasaku and all, no one asks you to repeat yourself, we both have said everything we could on the topic, we just each interpret the same thing differently as bizarre as it is and I guess only third-party can set thing straight now. It's pretty much to other editors what they do, I'm not gonna change anything myself either, since as you said, it's there, serve yourselves. I just wouldn't like nothing being done at all, again--Elveonora (talk) 18:07, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

I've simply reached a point where the whole issue became too convoluted for me to understand, so my reaction to this has defaulted to "yeah sure, whatever". Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:40, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

Elve-kun, I'm not angry at you or anyone. It's just that I tend to know my stuff and my explanations of such things are generally accepted by the majority, at least in the German fandom. I'm not used to people opposing my knowledge, as arrogant as that may sound.
The whole issue boils down to one thing: There are people with special bodies (Jugo, his clan and Kabuto) and people without special bodies (Naruto, Jiraiya). Both are able to draw in natural energy, but only those with control over the kneaded Senchakra can enter Sage Mode. If you have no control over the Senchakra and a special body, you go wild. If you have no control over the Senchakra and no special body, you turn to stone. As I said a million times already, Sage Mode is not the state of having Senchakra in ones body. That was never stated, as far as I know. Sage Mode is the state one can enter if he has control over Senchakra and, if he has a special body, control over that body. Seelentau 愛 19:00, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
"Hugs" that's nice of you to say and to admit one's own arrogance takes character, kudos. But to me: this says Senchakra = Sage Mode :P I'm not kidding you, if I read it backwards or from any angle, it just does. Do you have a German or English versions of the databook? Because translation word-by-word from one language into another can result in loss of intended meaning and it also depends on each of our own interpretation and understanding of context--Elveonora (talk) 19:11, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
Ah well, the concept of Seelentau can't go without arrogance, that's been established over the years.
The German version says basically the same: "In the decisive battle against Pain, Jiraiya shows himself in the shape of this sage technique.". Everything after that is about Senjutsu in general, as it is in the Japanese original. Seelentau 愛 19:17, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
But it's the rest of it what says Senjutsu chakra = Sage Mode to me. It says: "his body absorbs a great amount of nature energy. By kneading this with his own chakra, he gains the ability to use "senjutsu", rapidly increasing the level of all techniques, be it ninjutsu, taijutsu, or genjutsu!!" therefore Senchakra improves power of ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu, but isn't essentially that "Sage Mode" Senchakra empowering you? It doesn't talk about Senjutsu techniques in general as you say, otherwise it would be: "by kneading this with his own chakra, he gains the ability to use various senjutsu techniques" and would omit the empowerment part--Elveonora (talk) 19:24, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
But Sage Mode isn't mentioned after that. It's stated that the Senchakra empowers your techniques. How can the looks of somebody empower the techniques he's using? Even Fukasaku says that "Senjutsu" is what empowers Naruto's techniques. He doesn't even mention the Sage Mode, so I might even believe that that one sentence in the databook is the only sentence in the whole manga which directly says something about the Sage Mode. Seelentau 愛 19:28, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
The whole entry is about Sage Mode my man. I think you are a little paranoid in this case. The general consensus is that being in state of your techniques be empowered with Senchakra is Sage Mode, otherwise in case you are right it would mean we don't know what Sage Mode even is, what's unlikely, because it would render it quite pointless. What you imply is that Sage Mode = having pigment and animal eyes and just that I get it.--Elveonora (talk) 19:40, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

But that's what the databook says. I'm not making this up. Seelentau 愛 19:49, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

I think this topic needs to go to the forums, it's hard to read what the heck this is about >_> --Speysider Talk Page | My Image Uploads | Tabber Code | Channel 20:31, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
... essentially, the general consensus is that molding Senjutsu chakra makes one enter Sage Mode. To me, the databook says so, but for Seel, it says a different thing entirely as strange as it sounds. Just scroll a little bit above and read it for yourself and then tell me what you make of it. Seel says that empowering oneself with Senjutsu chakra isn't Sage Mode, only physical animal traits and pigment or something like that. Anyway, why are so many people lazy-readers? ._. I blame the society, it's just videogames, alcohol&drugs and races for "who gets STD or becomes pregnant/impregnates first" Back in my day, we actually read books... Well, I didn't either, but someone had to be the first, you know? :P EDIT: @Seel, no one accuses you of anything, I'm just positive that you purposely misinterpret it now just because Shima and Fukasaku aren't listed, so you want it to be true your way, because you are trying to come with an excuse, like Sage Mode being turning into animal and animals are already animals, so can't use Sage Mode, derp.--Elveonora (talk) 23:25, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
I couldn't care less about Ma and Pa for now. Seelentau 愛 02:32, March 9, 2014 (UTC)
At long last! And here I thought the day would never come for those little green pests to be gone. Then I guess all that's left is for someone to decipher the code written by our ancestry, wrought with ancient linguistics, mathematics and philosophy, long forgotten by modern history. What a formidable task if you ask me.--Elveonora (talk) 07:55, March 9, 2014 (UTC)
Sarcasm ain't gonna help nobody, bro. Maybe you should consider that we have more information from the manga which supports my view of things? Seelentau 愛 10:42, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Such as? Because all the information provided and everything ever said and shown about Sage Mode says to me: "Hey Elveonora, I agree with you buddy" Like this, we are just competing to prove who has the larger testicles here. Mine aren't that big if you want to know and yours are likely bigger, but I heard that the larger they are the more they hurt when they get kicked--Elveonora (talk) 11:11, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Fukasaku's explanation of Senjutsu is the exact same as the one in the databook, no Sage Mode mentioned. Orochimaru could knead Senchakra, but didn't enter Sage Mode. And yes, the frogs again. Seelentau 愛 11:34, March 9, 2014 (UTC)
And the explanation says what it does as is written and understood here tho Sage Mode it did state it yesterday and will state so tomorrow as well and the meaning won't change once we are a few meters under the ground, arguing still with worms feeding on us either. I'm beginning to wonder by now if you really do believe your own words. I respect you (you know that I suppose) but just for a second try to consider you are mistaken here. Also they are toads, not frogs and you said you couldn't care less about them :P--Elveonora (talk) 13:18, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

I've been asked to give my opinion, so here it comes. You are very right to say that Jugo is using senjutsu chakra and absorbing nature energy. However, Jugo absorbs it naturally, it isn't done through training. He has, apparently, no control over the absorption. Resulting in him rampaging, unless Sasuke calms him down. Jugo could learn to control his nature energy, and properly balance the senjutsu chakra in his body, turning him into a Sage. It's the control over the senjutsu chakra that makes a Sage, not the simple presence over the chakra. Like I said, he would need training. In truth, Jugo is no different than any other non-Sage, it's just he has experience with nature energy and senjutsu chakra, but he is not a Sage. Fukasaku and Shima, on the other hand, have gone through the training, to see nature energy and merge it in balance with their normal chakra. They are Sages, and are just as much Sages as Naruto. Sure they might not show the Sage Mode "transformation" but you have to remember they already have those characteristics, they ARE frogs. You can't become more "frog-e". Sage Transformation is an ability branching off of Jugo's ability to naturally absorb nature energy. It has nothing to so with Sage Mode. However, should the two abilities be merged, such as in Kabuto, the Sage Mode could continue to run indefinitely because the Sage is constantly bring in nature energy via Jugo's DNA. Any way, I think it's wrong to say Shima, Fukasaku, and Shima are not Sages. Omega64 (talk) 16:22, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

@Omega, Thanks for feedback, but you misunderstood the issue. I agree Jugo isn't a Sage in title/status and Seel doesn't disagree about the toads being Sages. He says tho, that the toads aren't using Sage Mode and that Sage Mode isn't Senjutsu chakra empowerment meaning the Sage Mode itself doesn't make the user and his/her techniques stronger and so on, but rather its just the animal changes and pigment alone from the way he words it, which in my opinion is farfetched. The way it's currently understood by majority (which I believe to be the correct understanding of it, because the way it's worded in the databook I do interpret it no differently than the way it's documented at the present) is that when one absorbs natural energy and mixes it with physical and spiritual energies, molding senjutsu chakra, the one enters Sage Mode. And by that, there's no reason for why shouldn't Shima, Fukasaku and Gamakichi also be users. What Seel directly or indirectly suggests is that Sage Mode = turning into animal, therefore animals can't use it since they can't become more animal as they already are.... ._. all of this conspiracy-crafting stems from the fact that the Third Databook omits them as users for whatever reason. But please read the entry yourself and tell me what it says to you Sage Mode is (Seel said the empowerment is about Senjutsu in general rather than the mode itself do you get such a vibe?). here it is Also you aren't entirely correct about what Sage Transformation is, it's the bodily shapeshifting Jugo and his clan do, not their ability to absorb natural energy, which is unnamed and unexplained and highly likely a Kekkei Genkai. The point is, Sage Transformation occurs when Jugo molds Senjutsu chakra as a side-effect due to his special bodily fluids which trigger the transformation as a reaction to the senjutsu chakra. And since you seem to agree that molding Senjutsu chakra = Sage Mode, it means whenever Jugo uses Sage Transformation, he is also using Sage Mode by extension or rather in reverse, those with special bodily fluids like Jugo (and Kabuto too, since he has his cells) using Sage Mode results in them turning into X-Men rejects due to said fluids. This is essentially what the topic, or the many topics it consists of do all boil down to... thanks again.--Elveonora (talk) 21:28, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not going to give the same argument over and over again and pray that it works. Definition of insanity. I will simply say that I continue to agree with Seel, mainly because A) his points are direct translations from the manga, while Elve's main defense is "you don't interpret it like me, so you're all wrong", and B) his points are the same points I made the last time this was debated. Doesn't get much clearer than that. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 04:19, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
I don't use any translations of my own taken from my ass, nor do I make up new meanings for it just to suit my view or wishful thinking. I interpret it the same way it's currently written HERE on narutopedia for years, because there is no other interpretation to me. So thank you for status update, I just want to let you know I continue to disagree with Seel's sentiments just as you do continue to agree with his. It's Seelentau here who says something different than the majority of Naruto fandom, so I'm gonna just leave it at that. And before: "just because majority thinks x doesn't make x true" well, ShounenSuki sensei understood it the same way I do if that means anything. But go on, I won't bite, remove Shima and Fukasaku as Sage Mode users and rewrite Sage Mode article into Animal Transformation for all I care--Elveonora (talk) 11:43, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

The funny thing is, Suki-senpai did a "New Years Facts Checking" a few years ago, correcting stuff that was widely accepted as the truth until then, and nobody ever doubted him. I'm doing the same with things like Senninka, Enton and Ten Tail's Chakra, only on a more frequent basis. But everyone and their neighbour is doubting me. :( Seelentau 愛 11:45, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

The fact checking was mostly related to wrong translations, not about disputing widely accepted interpretations. Your translation is the same as his, just for some reason you see something else written there :P @Foxie, you can be a cool guy, but I don't like you exactly in situations like this when you are in the opposition just because a person you worship says something makes you obliged to agree with it as if it were a scripture. Prove me wrong what you think is your own opinion and understanding of it rather than zealotry--Elveonora (talk) 11:55, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
I was just incredibly lazy. Also this discussion = @_@ to me. I so confused.
Can't we just make this article about the uncontrolled absorbsion/body freakout Jugo's clan does and specifically state that the only difference between this and Sage Mode is that Sages actually try?
Please?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 11:56, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
You still confused. Seelentau says Sage Mode isn't what it currently states here Sage Mode and that non-human users of Senjutsu don't use Sage Mode. The general consensus is that when an individual molds Senjutsu chakra, his or her body enters an empowered state called Sage Mode. Seelentau says it's wrong, that's the issue.--Elveonora (talk) 12:18, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
/cry --TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:25, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I'm short of shedding tears myself.--Elveonora (talk) 12:37, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Maybe this helps? Seelentau 愛 13:02, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

That isn't very helpful since again, I don't disagree with you on almost all of that (except your understanding of Juinka) You say balance over the senjutsu chakra leads to Sage Mode. Yet Jiraiya didn't have balance and was a user of Sage Mode, but Jugo ain't one you say. That's completely illogical. We disagree on what Sage Mode is and that's the source of all the arguments. To me, the databook says anyone who molds himself/herself Senjutsu chakra is a user of Sage Mode, as long as he/she has large enough chakra to use it of course. If it's perfect or imperfect depends on the balance, but it's not that only perfect balance equals Sage Mode. Sage Mode I consider to be a parent technique to Senninka, therefore users of the latter are also using the former, because Senninka requires Senjutsu chakra and Senjutsu chakra = Sage Mode, if there's enough of it and the user has large enough chakra.--Elveonora (talk) 13:21, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

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