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==Article==
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{{ArchiveList}}
Should we really put this page up for now? I mean, even if it is no longer a spoiler, there has been nothing about this technique that we know of, aside from the name. Just like [[Chibaku Tensei]], when [[Nagato]] said its name on Chapter 438, we didn't knew what its effects were until the next chapter. So should we wait until [[Madara]] or [[Danzō]] explain what the technique actually does before putting this page up? [[User:Yatanogarasu|Yatanogarasu]] 17:18, January, 14 2009 (UTC)
 
   
Until Madara explains what exactly it does, everything we know about this technique are nothing but especulations. I prefer to wait for his explanation, but we could put the name "Izanagi" in Danzo's page for while, without a link of course, like we did with Chibaku Tensei a long time ago. [[User:Shadow Abyss|Shadow Abyss]] ([[User talk:Shadow Abyss|talk]]) 02:10, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
 
   
Just for the record (you may want to put this in "trivia" or something), Izanagi is one of the two Gods in the Shinto creation myth, the other being Izanami. They were a man and a woman who were given a magical Naginata (kind of like a spear) to raise the first earth out of nothingness. They basically became the parents of Amaterasu, Tsukyomi, and Susanno.
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==Madara using izanagi==
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Madara has never seemed to teach obito anything. The brief moments he was alive was due to gedou mazo. He entrusted his will to one zetsu and it became black zetsu. Even if Black zetsu taught Obito izanagi, it was because of obito's sheer skill and chakra that he was able to master it!
   
:For the record, I'm pretty sure this page was only created from vandalism, before the new chapter was released.--[[User:Enoki911|Enoki911]] ([[User talk:Enoki911|talk]]) 04:35, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
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Izanagi should not be in the infobox! Because if madara had used it he wouldn't have the ability to gain EMS. It would be from some other DNA. We cannot assume that he used it sometime in past. Obito had only his left eye that had mangekyo sharingan, also to activate susanoo he would need both his eyes and that other eye is with Kakashi.
   
It's going to be made sooner or later. Might as well leave it as something vague and people will edit it later.--[[User:The tick rules|The tick rules]] ([[User talk:The tick rules|talk]]) 05:46, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
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We can't even assume that madara used it after battle with hashirama, because he had his EMS before death and also he activated rinnengan with his own eyes and transplanted them into Nagato. He didnt have too many sharingan to spam otherwise he would have had sharingan in both eye socket.
   
Shouldn't we put a pic in the box area, i know it maybe too early but it feels off without one --[[User:Exhorresco|Exhorresco]] ([[User talk:Exhorresco|talk]]) 23:32, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
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Obito has that many sharingan because of itachi's cooperation with him.
   
== Mind-controlling Dōjutsu (Unnamed) ==
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I agree on the fact that he has knowledge of all the uchiha kin-jutsu. But that does not means he used it all. If izanagi is in the infobox then izanami should be there too, or none should be present!{{unsigned|58.146.115.94}}
   
isn't this jutsu kind of related to the Mind-controlling Dōjutsu (Unnamed) jutsu because all he does is hypnotising the person he is fighting --[[Special:Contributions/94.183.154.188|94.183.154.188]] ([[User talk:94.183.154.188|talk]]) 09:10, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
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Either Madara taught him inside of a genjutsu, or black zetsu did as his "will" So by your logic, an Uchiha has to sacrifice an eye to confirm he knows how to do so? Minato learned Shinigami without killing himself for example. What has Susanoo to do with this? The only fair statement is the one with Izanami. There's no other way from where Obito could have learned Izanagi as it's not his personal/new technique, Kishi even bothered to draw a panel with Madara stating: "Come, I will teach you Uchiha kinjutsu, six paths techniques and Yin-Yang release" or something like that.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:45, April 5, 2013 (UTC)
   
Pure speculation. The manga is pointing it to being the jutsu he is useing to constantly revive himself.BEsides that jutsu your talking about is an exclusive techinque to him and Shisui only so no its not just hypnotizinng a person like most sharingan can do.[[User:Saimaroimaru|Saimaroimaru]] ([[User talk:Saimaroimaru|talk]]) 15:34, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
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Not to further confuse things but wasn't the stone tablet in the Naka Shrine said to have information on their techniques as well as the clan history and Mangekyo bits? I want to say it was Itachi that said it. [[User:Arrancar79|Arrancar79]] ([[User talk:Arrancar79|talk]]) 08:50, April 6, 2013 (UTC)
   
That isn't what it is pointing out. It is pointing out that the jutsu allows the user to split in and out of reality. Therefore allowing them to touch others but not be touched themselves. This would still not allow for mind control.[[User:WolfMaster|WolfMaster]] ([[User talk:WolfMaster|talk]]) 21:37, January 23, 2010 (UTC)
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I don't remember any techniques being mentioned and even if so, Sasuke read the tablet and didn't know about Izanagi before his encounter with Danzo--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:42, April 6, 2013 (UTC)
   
Uh what are you talking about. The dude before me thought Izanagi and shusui jutsu were related when they weren't beyond their user.[[User:Saimaroimaru|Saimaroimaru]] ([[User talk:Saimaroimaru|talk]]) 04:27, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
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:Yeah, he did know of Izanagi. Danzo was surprised by it and said "you tricked me". It doesn't prove you could learn it from the tablet but maybe. [[User:Arrancar79|Arrancar79]] ([[User talk:Arrancar79|talk]]) 22:49, April 6, 2013 (UTC)
   
== Agreed Upon? ==
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Sasuke merely tricked Danzō into confirming what he had guessed during the fight, he didn't have prior knowledge of the technique, otherwise he would have recognized it. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:24, April 6, 2013 (UTC)
   
"It is interesting to note that Izanagi may also be the technique that Madara used to escape Amaterasu which Itachi had implanted into Sasuke's eye to prevent their meeting."
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== Baru's usage ==
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The way he used Izanagi was different than how it is usually used. He made an illusionary army of himself (?) instead of using it to avoid any inflictions. Did anyone else see this? --[[User:OmegaRasengan|OmegaRasengan]] ([[User talk:OmegaRasengan|talk]]) 21:16, November 14, 2013 (UTC)
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:Looked to me like he revived the other Uchiha killed with the rock no jutsu. EDIT: my bad, got the names confused. The usage of it in general seemed off tho--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:54, November 14, 2013 (UTC)
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::Is this later when he got into a fight with other Uchiha before Naori intervened? I understood that sequence as the several fighting Uchiha getting slashed and then Izanaging themselves back in quick succession. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 22:54, November 14, 2013 (UTC)
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::Omega is talking about the time, when Itachi said, "''There was a fight which Uchiha needed to win at all cost,''" When the Uchiha mass fell down a trap. Baru used his Izanagi to revive/bring them back up...--[[User talk:East Dragons|<font size="4"><span style='color: Red'><font face="David">'''''East Dragons Feast'''</font></span></font>]] 03:34, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
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:::That wasn't Baru but Rai.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:52, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
   
Well is it? We shouldnt put unconfirmed stuff, Im removing it --[[User:Exhorresco|Exhorresco]] ([[User talk:Exhorresco|talk]]) 18:52, January 16, 2010 (UTC)
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== incorrect trivia ==
   
It's possible that he just used his space-time technique. But Madara is still a possible user. We haven't seen his left eye yet, which leads me to think that the "damage" that his sharingan supposedly has was due to using Izanagi at the end of his battle with the First. Not only would this explain (some) his supposedly lost power, but also how he fooled the First into thinking he was dead.
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First, Obito's eye closed only after the technique has ended too, so that's not an error I think. What is an error tho but isn't listed is that Izanagi makes the eye seal itself, while in the anime filler it doesn't do so but stays open and turns white instead, like in case of Izanami. Second, to me it seems like the filler is suggesting that Izanagi and Izanami are Mangekyou Sharingan techniques--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:07, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
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:Could also be that only "borrowed" Sharingan close...but I don't know if that makes much sense. The two canon uses of Izanagi only show normal Sharingan, no MS at all. I don't know why Izanagi should be much different, but then again, it was only used with MS so far, so it may be a MS technique....wasn't this already discussed some time ago? [[User:Norleon|Norleon]] ([[User talk:Norleon|talk]]) 15:10, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
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::Well, the thing is, we see Kamui being used with a normal Sharingan too :-/--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:38, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
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:::That is the kind of inconsistency I find hard to understand. There are some MS techniques that can be used without activating it (like Susanoo)....it just makes it hard to reason when a MS is required at all...I guess that Izanagi doesn't require a MS but can be used with one as well. For Izanami....regarding that it was only used with a MS so far, it would be logical to write it down as a MS technique but then wouldn't it be unrealistic that one technique requires it and the other doesn't? They are a pair after all.... -.- [[User:Norleon|Norleon]] ([[User talk:Norleon|talk]]) 18:50, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
   
Or, Madara could've kept the fact that he had the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan obscure( to himself ). This in turn keeps the fact that he is immortal, hidden.
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==A little doubt==
::Madara's survival was due to some other jutsu. Itachi [And the databook] claim that his eyes are fine, and the databook stated that the jutsu he used to survive and stay alive is known only to him.[[User:Wreiad|Wreiad]] ([[User talk:Wreiad|talk]]) 20:54, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
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When used, Izanagi "destoy" the sharingan used to perform the technique, it became useless, correct? Then, how, in the last chapter, the uchiha seems to use it as a simple technique, and even sacrifice their Mangekyo to use it so arbitrary? It's like the lost they had to pay is nothing but some a few more moments of life and fighting, the last to use Izanagi is the one to win! At my point, this filler had some errors, it don't seem to be a good filter to add on pages.
::Really which one? Can you send me a link, image, anything at all?{{unsigned|JaiBoogie}}
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Sorry for writing error. [[User:MaskedManMadara|MaskedManMadara]] ([[User talk:MaskedManMadara|talk]]) 22:39, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
::Sure. Read the tobi Translation [http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1175216&postcount=1] and the chapter page [http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/10/] EDIT: Please remember to sign your comments.[[User:Wreiad|Wreiad]] ([[User talk:Wreiad|talk]]) 21:09, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
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:The concept of Izanagi was already filled with this inconsistency, long before the anime filler came in. One asked a long time ago, how could the Uchiha abuse Izanagi if they went blind in that eye. Either way, we know the Uchiha abused Izanagi, we also know that they somehow didn't abuse themselves into blindness. So yeah kinda gotta just roll with that.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 23:03, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
::So you agree with me that it wasn't Izangai that Madara used? [p.s. thx for the links!!^_^][[User:JaiBoogie|JaiBoogie]] ([[User talk:JaiBoogie|talk]]) 21:42, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
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::"speculation mode" This could work: "Eye number 1 uses Izanagi to avoid death/make an illusion attack real and so on... the Uchiha then uses eye number 2's Izanagi to make the first eye's blindness didn't happen..." that would still leave only 3 viable usages total tho. The least speculative scenario is that the "abusers" simply took eyes of their dead Uchiha clansmen.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:10, November 16, 2013 (UTC)
:::The databook came out before the new chapter did. It's possible that some things were changed. However, odds are that he did not use this jutsu to escape Sasuke's Amaterasu. Putting that in the page is speculation.--[[User:Enoki911|Enoki911]] ([[User talk:Enoki911|talk]]) 01:59, January 23, 2010 (UTC)
 
::Yes Jai, I'm doubtful it was Izanagi. It really doesn't seem like that given the picture of him pierced with a sword and how someone poofs after being fatally hit while using Izanagi. @ Enoki | He seems to have used the Kamui jutsu to remove the fire. I agree this stuff should be left until it the truth comes to light.[[User:Wreiad|Wreiad]] ([[User talk:Wreiad|talk]]) 02:23, January 23, 2010 (UTC)
 
Yes and due to the fact that Madara stated here [http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/479/04/] at the bottom of the page that the eye's used to cast Izanagi would lose their eyesight and never open again. Doing the math considering the fact that he fought the 1st after taking his brother's eyes, if he used the technique to escape the 1st then that left him with one good eye. Then if he used it to evade the Rasengan that would leave him blind. If he took Itachi's eyes after Sasuke said that he didn't want them he would be able to use it two more times. If he used Izanagi to put out Amaterasu he would again have on good eye. Now i'm not going to go through the other attacks that Madara evaded but I will use his fight with Fu as the last example. During that fight he was stabbed through the head if he used Izanagi then he would be blind again therefore unable to watch the fight between Danzo and Sasuke. This is only if you are stating that Madara's time-space jutsu is Izanagi. Also it can be fair to say that Izanagi is not a Mangekyo technique seeing as how Danzo doesn't appear to have a Mangekyo sharingan on his body and the evidence of the eyes that used Izanagi would close and the sharingan that have closed were normal then that means anyone who possesses the normal sharingan can use it.[[User:WolfMaster|WolfMaster]] ([[User talk:WolfMaster|talk]]) 21:25, January 23, 2010 (UTC)
 
   
== Question ==
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Or when they used Izanagi in their last eye with vision, they made it to where when the Izanagi illusion was about to end that they had their eyesight back, THEN it ended, giving them their eyes back?? Sounds like some troll bs the Uchiha would do anyways... and it would give a true purpose to izanami [[User:ItachiWasAHero|ItachiWasAHero]] ([[User talk:ItachiWasAHero|talk]]) 12:52, December 9, 2013 (UTC)
   
When Danzo releases Izanagi, does the closed Uchiha eyes reopen? --[[User:Exhorresco|Exhorresco]] ([[User talk:Exhorresco|talk]]) 23:43, January 20, 2010 (UTC)
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==Requires Senju Power?==
:Wait until Friday and see for your self. [[User:Jacce|Jacce]] | [[User talk:Jacce|Talk]] 05:24, January 21, 2010 (UTC)
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There are several things that the anime changes when Itachi uses Izanami on Kabuto, one being the eye's pupil turning white instead of having the eye close. Another is that many Uchiha were able to use it. Madara was the first Uchiha to get Senju power, meaning that nobody before him would have been able to use Izanagi and it wouldn't have been labeled as a forbidden jutsu. The part where Tobi claims it requires Senju power is false and it is recanted in the anime episode Izanagi and Izanami. [[User:Daman45667|Daman45667]] ([[User talk:Daman45667|talk]]) 16:38, April 5, 2014 (UTC)
:No. [[User:Honza8D|Honza8D]] ([[User talk:Honza8D|talk]])
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:Itachi used Izanami, not Izanagi. What happens in the anime and not in the manga isn't canon.--[[User:JOA20|JOA20]] ([[User talk:JOA20|talk]]) 16:51, April 5, 2014 (UTC)
They don't reopen as Madara states here [http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/479/04/] that any sharingan that is used to cast the technique would close and never reopen.[[User:WolfMaster|WolfMaster]] ([[User talk:WolfMaster|talk]]) 23:35, January 23, 2010 (UTC)
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::Also, Senju power is what allowed Danzō to extend the duration of Izanagi, other Uchiha obviously used it before, it simply wasn't as powerful. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 17:14, April 5, 2014 (UTC)
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:::It didn't just happen in the anime, the history of Izanami in the beginning of chapter 587 also tells about past Uchiha who used Izanagi. The paragraph in the wiki page starting with "To use Izanagi, users must also have the genetic traits of the Senju" should be changed to reflect the fact that Tobi was wrong and Senju power is not required. (in the middle of writing this I looked at both chapters were Izanagi was mentioned and there is a conflict between the two, the writer seems to have greatly changed Izanagi between it's introduction and the introduction of Izanami) [[User:Daman45667|Daman45667]] ([[User talk:Daman45667|talk]]) 00:47, April 6, 2014 (UTC)
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::::You know, it IS possible that they also found some senju DNA, where was it said that Madara was the FIRST to use Senju DNA? [[User:Dahk|Dahk]] ([[User talk:Dahk|talk]]) 01:36, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
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::::: I find it extremely hard to believe that there were Uchiha running around stealing Senju blood to activate a ''Sharingan'' technique. Izanagi alone can be used by the Uchiha. Izanagi on the scale that Danzō and Obito displayed requires Senju DNA. That's been explicitly explained over and over again. No need to rehash this argument everytime. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 01:41, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::The whole reason this is an issue is because it ISN'T EXPLICITLY explained [[User:Dahk|Dahk]] ([[User talk:Dahk|talk]]) 02:49, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Image ==
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Going from what Omni said: "other Uchiha obviously used it before, it simply wasn't as powerful", my line of thinking is this.. Uchiha are capable of using it, it's just that Senju DNA increased the power of it. Seeing as the eye techs come from the Sages power, having both bloodlines would in turn increase the power and effectiveness of it. If that makes sense? [[User:SusanooUnleashed|SusanooUnleashed]] ([[User talk:SusanooUnleashed|talk]]) 05:52, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
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:I don't know man, considering that it is a yin-yang release and that it is a derivative of the sages Creation of All Things technique i still stand by that it needs both senju and uchiha power to use it simply because the uchiha side uses yin to create the genjutsu and the senju yang release to make it a reality. There just hasn't been any case where it has been stated that any who used Izanagi did not have senju but the times that it has been shown every user has had some senju dna, i think until someone uses it and we are 100% sure that they have NO senju dna then we have to assume that not only does it require it, but the uchiha who abused it in the past also had some senju DNA, keep in mind they were in a war with the senju so them using their enemies dna to get the upper hand isn't so very far fetched as people seem to think it is. [[User:Dahk|Dahk]] ([[User talk:Dahk|talk]]) 19:25, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
   
I have this image, but I don't know if it is good enough to put up on the page.[[File:Danzo_Izanagi.JPG|thumb|Izanagi]]--[[User:Mpc797|Mpc797]] ([[User talk:Mpc797|talk]]) 01:32, January 23, 2010 (UTC)
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== Time-Space Ninjutsu ==
:How does that represent the jutsu at all? [[User:Simant|Simant]] ([[User talk:Simant|talk]]) 01:34, January 23, 2010 (UTC)
 
::It shows Danzo negating the effects of him geting hit by the arrow, which is represented by the puff of smoke--[[User:Mpc797|Mpc797]] ([[User talk:Mpc797|talk]]) 01:36, January 23, 2010 (UTC)
 
:::This is good, but I think we should also include a picture of Danzo's eyes closing. [[Special:Contributions/24.45.20.86|24.45.20.86]] ([[User talk:24.45.20.86|talk]]) 14:38, January 24, 2010 (UTC)
 
   
I think we should add [[:File:Tailed Beast Division.png|this]] to the page, since the division of the Tailed Beasts is a very important use of the technique. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 20:35, September 18, 2010 (UTC)
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Considering the reality-warping power of this technique, shouldn't it be also classified as Time-Space Ninjutsu? Various technique have implored two of the three main ninja skills. Steveo920, April 30, 2014, 15:32
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:No, it's a Genjutsu, not a Ninjutsu. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 19:34, April 30, 2014 (UTC)
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::Reality-warping ain't teleportation. It's pretty much "me god no jutsu"--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:15, April 30, 2014 (UTC)
   
:Mm, I think the current image illustrates how it works better. [[User:ZeroSD|ZeroSD]] ([[User talk:ZeroSD|talk]]) 00:30, September 19, 2010 (UTC)
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== Izanagi w/o Senju cells? ==
   
::I'm not suggesting to use it as the main image, just to have it added to the article. While it does show the complete technique, unlike Danzō's incomplete Izanagi, it shows very little. Maybe if they do a flashback and show it better, or if Madara uses it to make something big as well, but not that one. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 00:56, September 19, 2010 (UTC)
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May I ask why this article states that you can use Izanagi without possessing Senju cells? (Yes, I read the topic above, but it doesn't answer my question). [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|]]</sup> 16:54, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Genjutsu ==
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I think it's because Izanami was created to punish Izanagi users who abused it's power. That would mean it have to be possible to use Izanagi without Senju cells, especially if Itachi could use Izanami and we know he had no Senju cells at all. Also Madara used it before he integrated Hashirama's flesh to his wounds to come back from the dead.--[[User:Narutofox94|Narutofox94]] ([[User talk:Narutofox94|talk]]) 17:06, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
   
I know that this is confirmed genjutsu, but I don't quite understand how. Genjutsu acreate illusions; Izanagi makes illusions into reality. Can someone explain?--[[User:Enoki911|Enoki911]] ([[User talk:Enoki911|talk]]) 02:01, January 23, 2010 (UTC)
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Because Izanagi needs no Senju power obviously?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:09, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
*Basically, this genjutsu is so powerful that it actually warps reality, though only in a short range. Instead of creating illusions, one becomes illusions. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 02:06, January 23, 2010 (UTC)
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:If it was obvious, I wouldn't be asking. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|]]</sup> 17:11, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
::That doesn't quite make sense. It says in the article itself that, according to Madara at least, the user places the genjutsu on themselves. If that is so, then wouldn't that only cause the user to only think that they were dead, when in actuality they weren't?--[[User:Enoki911|Enoki911]] ([[User talk:Enoki911|talk]]) 02:29, January 23, 2010 (UTC)
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::Well, I don't see how would Madara be able to script his eye to use Izanagi before even getting Hash cells if they were needed. I once thought that Senju cells are a requirement too, but that didn't really make sense with the Uchiha abusing it in the past. It was farfetched to think each of them stole flesh from Senju, although one may never know with them--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:17, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
This can be summed up with a philosophical theory that life is all a dream and you are merely the imagination of yourself meaning that like genjutsu life is just an illusion. If following this idea and thinking of the statements made about Izanagi being able to alter reality and being cast on the user. This will mean that Izanagi is a genjutsu that alters a preexisting illusion (reality) of the user who is also an illusion since they are the imagination of themselves. This explains the effects how the user is very aware of themselves as reality and they are both illusions and Izanagi alters both at the same time. The jutsu simply makes the user (illusion) unable to be hit by another person (another illusion) but to still be able to touch them. And if the user is aware of the genjutsu cast on them they will not feel any effect of the genjutsu other than altered perception. This may have complicated things, but does this help to explain the jutsu?[[User:WolfMaster|WolfMaster]] ([[User talk:WolfMaster|talk]]) 21:35, January 23, 2010 (UTC)
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:::From what I could gather from scraps of memories, Senju DNA is not needed for Izanagi, but it does make Izanagi work better. For some reason.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 17:30, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
:If we were to accept that philosophy as true, then yes. However, this is a highly debatable theory, so it doesn't quite seem adequate to me. There is no proof, both in the Naruto world and the real world, that we are mere illusions, dreams, etc. Any other ideas?--[[User:Enoki911|Enoki911]] ([[User talk:Enoki911|talk]]) 07:02, January 24, 2010 (UTC)
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::::Elve, it was stated prior to Madara's Izanagi, so that doesn't count as an argument. TU3, but why is it not needed? Tobi even said that you can use it only with both powers... [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|]]</sup> 17:37, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
::Amusingly enough, there is no proof we aren't mere illusions or dreams. Just because we feel, doesn't necessarily make us real. Ponder that for a moment. ^_^ We do know however, that this is a genjutsu cast on oneself that warps reality for the user.--[[User:TheUltimate3|TheUltimate3]] ([[User talk:TheUltimate3|talk]]) 11:22, January 24, 2010 (UTC)
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:::::Did he now? Like I said, from the scraps of my memory I could have sworn it was stated that Senju DNA just makes it work better. {{unsigned|TheUltimate3}}
Exactly, all i'm saying is that if a genjutsu (illusion technique) is used to affect actual reality and not just the reality of what seems to be then reality has to be an illusion itself as genjutsu, by what has been said so far can only affect illusions and alter perceptions. However altered perceptions does not count here as that would be implying that Izanagi makes the enemy think that they hit the user when they actually did just for the injury or death to be turned into an illusion. I'm not saying that there is proof or even that reality is an illusion but so far this is all we have to go on as one chapter is not enough to explain a jutsu completely if it is kept ambiguous throughout the chapter. Though I do have a question of my own, though Izanagi changes reality and only lasts a short time. Then why didn't Sasuke see through the illusion sooner than he did? After all one ability of the sharingan is to be able to see past genjutsu, this job being made easier since Sasuke wasn't the one trapped in the genjutsu.[[User:WolfMaster|WolfMaster]] ([[User talk:WolfMaster|talk]]) 15:33, January 24, 2010 (UTC)
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::::::Sometimes (or rather more often recently) we get either vague or contradicting statements. But since now we've seen Madara setting up an Izanagi without Senju cells, we've got a confirmation that they are optional. That's it. Perhaps Obito\s remark was the same like Kakashi's about Sharingan and Hyuga, false/half-true. Or simply a retcon, we have had some. For example, the first time we were shown Madara's death, he was pierced from the front, not behind--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:50, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
:A) If you want to have a philosophical discussion, then go to [[User talk:Enoki911|my talk page]]. B) In response to your Sasuke question, WolfMaster, either Sasuke did see through Izanagi, and kept quiet so that Danzō wouldn't know that he knew, or he was simply too distracted by his anger at Danzō, having to focus on the fight, and the strain of using Susanoo. Personally, I favor the first.--[[User:Enoki911|Enoki911]] ([[User talk:Enoki911|talk]]) 17:29, January 24, 2010 (UTC)
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:::::::Yes, he did. And please ignore Madara's Izanagi for now. For what reason was it stated before he used it? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|]]</sup> 17:55, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
== Madara ==
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::::::::Obito was comparing Izanagi to Creation of All Things and how it is power of both Uchiha and Senju or so--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:03, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
  +
:::::::::Nope. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 18:07, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
  +
As far as I understand, the fact Uchiha were able to abuse it between themselves in an indication that it doesn't require Senju cells, though its application enhances Izanagi to the levels we saw Danzō use. Madara being able to use it before grafting Hashirama's cells undeniably confirms that to me. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 18:12, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
  +
:How does the using of a technique debunk the requirements for that technique? • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 18:45, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
  +
::Unless having Hashirama's flesh in his stomach counts as an implantation of tissue, which isn't and shouldn't, for many reasons, Madara used Izanagi without Senju DNA. The fact of the Uchiha abusing the technique would also imply they all had access to Senju DNA and all had grafts of Senju cells as well, which is highly unlikely. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 18:50, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
  +
:::Looking at all the bloody battles that happened between the Uchiha and Senju, it's almost certain that both parties hat access to DNA from their opponents, Madara included. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 18:53, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
  +
Not to mention that Black Zetsu apparently tried to make the Uchiha and Senju awaken the Rinnegan for all its life, so to me it sounds obvious that Uchihas could use Izanagi only because they had access to Senju DNA.--[[User:JOA20|JOA20]] ([[User talk:JOA20|talk]]) 18:59, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
   
I know this isn't confirmed and it shouldn't be posted until it is but it is more than likely that Madara is able to use Izanagi for a couple pf reasons. For one he probably used it to survive from the first hokage making him go blind in his left eye. That would also explain why he wheres a mask that only has one eye hole. Remember this is just a theory not fact so nobody edit any pages because of this. [[Special:Contributions/76.126.77.35|76.126.77.35]] ([[User talk:76.126.77.35|talk]]) 23:14, January 23, 2010 (UTC)
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Correct me if I'm wrong Seel, but the implication that you are trying to convey is that Madara had had some Senju's cells already before he took Hashirama's, is that correct?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 20:14, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
:Let's rethink this. Madara has an eternal Mangekyo Sharingan, meaning it doesn't go blind. If he did indeed use Izanagi, would the effect [Blindness] apply to him? We don't know. Furthermore, Itachi already said his eyes are fine, and the databook claims his jutsu is something else.[[User:Wreiad|Wreiad]] ([[User talk:Wreiad|talk]]) 23:33, January 23, 2010 (UTC)
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:Madara may not have had already implanted it in his body, but he had just taken a piece of the Senju's meat in their final battle.--[[User:JOA20|JOA20]] ([[User talk:JOA20|talk]]) 20:25, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
  +
::Yes, Elve. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 20:37, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
  +
:::Then why go through the motions of taking Hashirama flesh if he already had it? The lulz? The flashback stated he got a piece of Hashirama during that battle and used it in his wound, which is what we saw. Why would he do that if he already had it?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 21:11, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
  +
::::Seelentau states that he had "a" Senju cells prior to Hashirama's.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:24, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
  +
:::::And I was pointing out that isn't logical, based on the events that transpired. First of all, how is "a" Senju cell any different from a chunk of Hashirama meat (ha ha ha), and why would he even bother showing us the moment he got the DNA if there was literally no point?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 23:31, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
  +
:::::: The reasoning comes directly from Obito. He claims (in the same speech to Konan) that those without Hashirama's power could only use an "incomplete Izanagi". He then goes on to declare himself "Madara Uchiha who has the power of Hashirama Senju", indicating that because of this power, he could use a complete Izanagi. Which makes sense because during Sasuke's battle with Danzo, Obito noted that Hashirama's cells merely increased the amount of time Danzo could use Izanagi with each eye before it went blind. Edit: Furthermore, "Senju DNA" was never said to be a requirement. ''Ever''. That is a grievous misunderstanding. In every instance, Hashirama's cellular material is specifically mentioned. You need ''his'' cells. Not just any run of the mill Senju. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg|20px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 23:36, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
   
It actually states that you can't go blind by normal means with the eternal mangekyo sharingan, which Izanagi is not a natural way of going blind. But still it hasn't been proven that Madara can use Izanagi, it's just a theory.[[Special:Contributions/76.126.77.35|76.126.77.35]] ([[User talk:76.126.77.35|talk]]) 23:49, January 23, 2010 (UTC)
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It would be best to just check what Obito said to Konan--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:00, June 23, 2014 (UTC)
:This is not a forum. Do not post speculation here.--[[User:Enoki911|Enoki911]] ([[User talk:Enoki911|talk]]) 06:59, January 24, 2010 (UTC)
 
   
== Genjutsu ?? Dōjutsu?? ==
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:Umm I thought that it was just that the usage of Hashirama's cells allowed people to "perfect" or "enhance" Izanagi?
   
"Izanagi is a Sharingan '''dōjutsu''' which the Uchiha clan deemed forbidden. According to Madara Uchiha, it is the most powerful '''genjutsu''' an individual can cast upon themselves."
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:I mean for one thing, Izanami was created as to punish people who abused it. Itachi even noted that a big problem was Izanagi users using it against each other. If that's the case, I don't think all that many of those Uchiha would have had access to Senju cells. (Besides that, Izanami obviously doesn't require the usage of Senju DNA, and it's considered a pair technique of the same caliber. But this is speculation, so you can disregard the pair technique reasoning.)
I'm a bit confused here... --[[User:Blaublau94|Blaublau94]] ([[User talk:Blaublau94|talk]]) 06:33, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
 
:There's nothing to be confused about, the two terms are not mutually exclusive. Genjutsu means the technique creates an illusion, while dōjutsu means the technique is performed with one's eyes. Izanagi is both. --[[User:ShounenSuki|ShounenSuki]] <sup>([[User_talk:ShounenSuki|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/ShounenSuki|contribs]])</sup> 08:09, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
 
   
== Effects ==
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:For another, Hashirama's DNA in general was noted to be able to boost the power of a bunch of Sharingan abilities. I'm fairly certain Danzo had his cells implanted in him to extend Izanagi's duration, besides of course allowing him a much shorter Kotoamatsukami recharge time and the ability to use wood release. [[User:Aeron Solo|<font color="grass" size="2">'''Aeron Solo wuz here'''</font>]] [[User talk:Aeron Solo|<font color="gold" size="1">(If you wanna talk)</font>]] 17:32, June 24, 2014 (UTC)
   
According to this article, "The actual effects of Izanagi varies from user to user". But, where it this stated?
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::Oops, Ten-tails already said a lot of what I said. Sorry :P
[[Special:Contributions/201.214.101.91|201.214.101.91]] ([[User talk:201.214.101.91|talk]]) 15:25, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
 
   
:Chapter 479, page 5. [[User:Wreiad|Wreiad]] ([[User talk:Wreiad|talk]]) 17:10, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
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::I checked again what Obito said, and the Mangastream translation had him claim that only the combined power of the Senju and the Uchiha allowed people to use it. About Danzo, Obito also claimed that because he couldn't control Hashirama's DNA he only got an incomplete version of it.
   
== Meaning ==
+
::But this doesn't make any sense. If Izanami was created to punish the multitude of Izanagi abusers, does this mean that there were actually a sizeable number of Uchiha had access to Senju DNA? [[User:Aeron Solo|<font color="grass" size="2">'''Aeron Solo wuz here'''</font>]] [[User talk:Aeron Solo|<font color="gold" size="1">(If you wanna talk)</font>]] 17:41, June 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Don't even use scanlations for reference, check the viz--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:49, June 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::::...Aren't Viz translations meant for younger audiences, and thus even less accurate than scanlations? Especially those from Mangastream? [[User:Aeron Solo|<font color="grass" size="2">'''Aeron Solo wuz here'''</font>]] [[User talk:Aeron Solo|<font color="gold" size="1">(If you wanna talk)</font>]] 17:54, June 24, 2014 (UTC)
  +
:::::Ideally, you would use the translations our providers give because both of those have their highs and the lows. But on the base, official translations are worth more than scanlations. And also speaking not as an sysop for a second, Mangastream, while good, takes massive liberties with what they translate as a way to make it more entertaining for their readers. If anything, out of the few parties that do scan, they are probably the worst one to use on its own because they will change dialogue to make it sound better.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 18:23, June 24, 2014 (UTC)
   
From what I've read about Shinto mythology, Izanagi does not literally mean God of Creation, and also, the technique name is written in hiragana, so the literal English should be just "Izanagi". [[Special:Contributions/24.45.20.86|24.45.20.86]] ([[User talk:24.45.20.86|talk]]) 00:01, February 6, 2010 (UTC)
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Sorry for not replying earlier, I'm currently on the road w/ limited internet access.<br />
  +
Anyhow, Tobi said in chapter 510 that Senju and Uchiha powers are required. How can that be misunderstood? I agree that after the latest chapter, it's debateable if Senju cells really are a requirement, but I wanna know about the time before that. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 19:50, June 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:What Seel said. Tobi stated that Izanagi could be used only by those with Senju and Uchiha powers. About Danzō, Obito commented that those who couldn't fully control Hashirama's (and the Senju's) powers could use only an "incomplete" Izanagi.--[[User:JOA20|JOA20]] ([[User talk:JOA20|talk]]) 20:00, June 24, 2014 (UTC)
   
== abilities ==
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Geez, can't we simply agree that this is a major plothole (amongst many others) in Naruto? It's not like Kishi's coherent 100% of the time dudes, his manga is filled with flaws and plotholes. Izanagi requiring Senju and Uchiha powers is just another one. [[User talk:Guilherme Abe|Abe]] 02:01,6/28/2014
   
i understand how izanagi can make reality an illusion because of how he doesn't die but i don't understand how it can make illusion a reality. can someone explain that? --[[Special:Contributions/71.156.43.33|71.156.43.33]] ([[User talk:71.156.43.33|talk]]) 03:22, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
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:: Again, I'll say that you're wrong. Tobi said only those with Senju ''Hashirama's'' DNA could achieve a complete Izanagi, then referencing Danzo said that those unable to control Hashirama's powers achieved an incomplete Izanagi. So unless Hashirama had his blood repeatedly stolen by a multitude of Uchiha (which would be require for Izanami), your point is moot entirely. Besides, Tobi is hardly a credible source since in that same speech to Konan, he was ''lying''. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg|20px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 05:01, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
   
:Sorry, but we don't write this story. [[User:Wreiad|Wreiad]] ([[User talk:Wreiad|talk]]) 05:12, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
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:::The only way I can find an explanation that sustains the version that there is a "complete Izanagi" and a "incomplete Izanagi" is the following: Whenever, throughout the series, Izanagi/Izanami was used by someone who didn't possess Senju power (i.e. Itachi, dead Madara, random Uchiha clansmen), their eyes simply got blank. However, when used by someone with both Uchiha and Senju powers (i.e. Obito and Danzo), the eyes closed. Maybe there's a hint in here that actually makes up for this confusion. Still, that adds up for two "lies" Tobi told Konan during their fight: that any Izanagi necessarily required Senju+Uchiha; and that he was the one who convinced Yahiko to organize Akatsuki. [[User talk:Guilherme Abe|Abe]] 05:29,6/28/2014
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::::@Fox, I'm talking about chapter 510, when he began explaining Izanagi. He really only says ''Uchiha and Senju''. Also, when did he lie to Konan (except for saying he's Madara)? • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 09:26, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::I insist on the version of two kinds of Izanagi based on how the user's eyes look after using it. I mean, look at here: http://readms.com/r/naruto/681/2414/17 there's Madara's right eye, blank, after using Izanagi, even though we have seen more than 10 eyes closing after using Izanagi on Danzo's arm. It doesn't see reasonable to me to think that Kishi just forgot about this. I think he's telling us something. [[User talk:Guilherme Abe|Abe]] 15:49,6/28/2014
   
:Probably something akin to the time-space jutsu other sharingan jutsu have combined with genjutsu. [[User:ZeroSD|ZeroSD]] ([[User talk:ZeroSD|talk]]) 23:37, March 25, 2010 (UTC)
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At this point, it should be clear that Uchiha's can use Izanagi without Senju/Hashirama cells. This may seemingly contradict Obito (depending on translation), but he's an unreliable narrator extraordinaire. You have the history of Uchihas abusing Izanagi, so much so, that they required Izanami to stop it. You have Madara ''on panel'' using Izanagi without Hashi's DNA (unless you're seriously going to claim Hashi's "meat" in Madara's stomach is equivalent to Madara assimilating Hashi's DNA, in which case you'll have to explain why he spit it up again). You can speculate that he acquired some other Senju's DNA beforehand, but there's absolutely no indication of that. It's pure speculation. Only thing Hashi's DNA does is make it last longer if you can control it as well as Obito. Madara's pre Hashi usage should've settled the argument and the article should reflect that. --CyberianGinseng 11:16, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:As I stated before, I want to know why this was stated even before Madara's case. The many users of Izanagi is no argument, since as I said before, Obito said that you need Senju and Uchiha power, not Hashirama's powers. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 11:19, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Genjutsu become real? ==
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::But it is an argument. The reason why many people came to that conclusion is because of the history of prior rampant Izanagi usage by Uchihas. It belies common sense that Uchihas were stealing Senju DNA with that level of frequency, yet 1) the leader of the Senju had no knowledge of such tactics, 2) His brother, the sensor, same guy how can determine your bodily makeup in an instant, had no knowledge of such tactics or didn't tell Hashirama, and 3) Uchiha's were walking around with Senju DNA implants, while still getting their asses kicked by Senju. It doesn't make any sense. That's why the many people threw out the so-called Senju requirement for Izanagi right then and there. This latest info just confirms prior conclusions. --CyberianGinseng 11:32, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
   
According to SJ(American version) it also makes Genjutsu become real.[[User:Umishiru|Umishiru]] ([[User talk:Umishiru|talk]]) 01:47, August 26, 2010 (UTC)
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== plothole ==
   
:Yes, real to the user only. It is a Genjutsu the user casts on ones self. [[User:Arrancar79|Arrancar79]] ([[User talk:Arrancar79|talk]]) 01:53, August 26, 2010 (UTC)
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Since Izanagi can turn reality into an illusion and illusion into reality, essentially rewriting reality/fate/history whatever, shouldn't have Madara's wounds that had caused his death disappeared? Since they "never happened" and all--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:39, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
Oh, nevermind, I knew that, was thinking something else.[[User:Umishiru|Umishiru]] ([[User talk:Umishiru|talk]]) 02:31, August 26, 2010 (UTC)
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:He undid the death part. Not the wounds part. Also, this isn't really a plot hole, nor does something like this really need to be asked on a talk page.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 23:54, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
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::Death was caused by the wounds tho. So if you severed his head and the eye would then activate, Madara's headless body would start to walk around? No... the point is, the Izanagi as shown by Danzo completely removes the wounds.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 00:05, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
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::: Only this time, it didn't. Danzo isn't Madara. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg|20px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 00:16, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
   
  +
::: '''It's pretty clear''' this jutsu operates on the whim of the user. Madara could've rewrote reality so that the wound was simply less severe. There are plenty of plotholes in Naruto, but this ain't one of them.--CyberianGinseng 03:14, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
   
==Sorry==
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How about a much simpler explanation that isn't just excusing? Perhaps the wounds into which Madara put Hash cells had been inflicted in an earlier fight, that sounds reasonable to me.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:05, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
Oh i'm sorry about deleting the last edit, I didn't read the new chapter until now
 
 
== Rinnegan ==
 
 
Since the Sage of the Six Paths could use it, and he didn't have a Sharingan, what should we do? Remove the Sharigan from the requirement or list the Rinnegan as a requirement as well? [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 22:39, September 15, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
I think we should list the Rinnegan since it said it required Uchiha and Senji Blood, So that means It need the Sharingan(Uchiha) and Rinnegan (Senji) that's probally why the Ten tails has an eye like that
 
 
We could put both.--[[User:FullMetalXY|FullMetalXY]] ([[User talk:FullMetalXY|talk]]) 22:57, September 15, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
::I'm thinking the sage's eyes were mutated by the Juubi's chakra to the point of gaining tomoe, and that not only created a new dojutsu, but allowed him to use Sharingan dojutsu. Yes, this is a theory, but the tomoe shown over his head when he's depicted obviously means something, perhaps that he gained more power from using the Juubi's chakra. Madara himself claims to want to become the Juubi's host, and he wants the rinnegan, and has claimed before that the plan is about the "sharingan's true power", which could be referring to the Juubi's dojutsu or it's chakra mutating his eyes. Right now the rinnegan shouldn't be added as a requirement because it wouldn't make any sense. It simply hasn't been shown as possessing any significant abilities or similarities with the shairngan. At the very least, if possible, we should have a high resolution image of this page to show whether or not the sage's rinnegan gained tomoe as indicated by the symbol above his head and the diagram. It seems to be in eyes, but let's be sure.
 
http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/81065970/12
 
 
[[User:Wreiad|Wreiad]] ([[User talk:Wreiad|talk]]) 03:00, September 16, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
This jutsu was created by the Sage of the Sixth Path, it's obviouly a Rinnegan jutsu, in origin. Only a rinnegan user has the the power of both Uchiha and Senju (who are derived from the sage), because he can use any form of chakra, elemental or yin and yang. Izanagi was created using yin and yang by the Sage. This is why madara wants the rinnegan, because even if he acquired the power of hashirama, he has to sacrifice an eye to use this jutsu, just like danzou
 
 
 
::Please sign your comments. There is no evidence that it was Rinnegan dojutsu in origin, as that would make it a kekkei genkai. Madara mentioned that having the Senju and Uchiha's "powers" is what gives one access to Izanagi, not having the Rinnegan. He claims the foundation for Izanagi is manipulating spiritual and physical energies, and never attributes it to the Rinnegan. As I said, it may be a dojutsu that was given birth to by the dojutsu the sage attained from having the Juubi's chakra, and would thus explain why there are tomoe shown in his eye. Madara himself has claimed that his plan is about the Sharingan's true power, not the Rinnegan's.
 
[[User:Wreiad|Wreiad]] ([[User talk:Wreiad|talk]]) 14:42, September 16, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
Having the Senju and Uchiha's "powers" IS having the Rinnegan. It's clearly stated that the Senju has the physical body and willpower of the Sage and the Uchiha the chakra and the eyepower. "manipulating spiritual and physical energies" is the manipulation of yin and yang, and that PRECISELY one of the Rinnegan attributes: the ability to use ANY chakra manipulation, it is stated many times. There's no tomoe in the Sage eyes, we've only seen the Sage with the rinnegan and a little view of the eye of the juubi. it is the juubi who has the tomoe. "the sharingan true power" is the Rinnegan of the Sage, because with the Rinnegan you can build up the juubi and use the perfect izanagi just like the Sage did
 
-Beldin September 16
 
 
 
::Having the Senju and Uchiha's "powers" is not having the ''Rinnegan''; he and Konan ''never'' says that. Again, spiritual and physical energies are not kekkei genkai, nor is being being able to manipulate them. The rikudo merely discovered something that already existed. Izanagi would be a Rinnegan kekkei genkai if the Sage used it with his Rinnegan in the sense of being a dojutsu, and that wouldn't make any sense at all when given how Nagato has never been shown to have used a Sharingan technique. I'm not sure how many times I can say it's better to wait until there's a much higher resolution image to confirm that rikudo's eyes had tomoe.
 
http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/81065970/12
 
 
Right now there's more to indicate that his eyes mutated from the Juubi's influence and that's what ultimately gave rise to Izanagi, not the Rinnegan, which as never been shown to have the same powers as the sharingan until this unique circumstance. The eye is even shown with ''6'' tomoe versus the Juubi's ''9'', so it's not the Juubi's eye, but Rikudo's under the influence of it's chakra. The 6 tomoe most most likely has something to do with the Juubi and being the "sage of the 6 paths", as his necklace most likely has to do with the Juubi given how Naruto attained something similar from the fox recently. The Rikudo didn't create the Juubi either. He's only said to have created the tailed beasts known today from splitting it's chakra.
 
[[User:Wreiad|Wreiad]] ([[User talk:Wreiad|talk]]) 02:53, September 17, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
That's a lot of speculation. Nothing was ever said about how the Ten-Tails affected the Sage of the Six Paths, just that he became stronger. Also, the Rinnegan laid foundation for Sharingan and Byakugan, not the Ten-Tails. The Sharingan evolved from the not-quite-Rinnegan dōjutsu the older son had, and as far as we know, the Sage already had sons when he became a jinchūriki. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:49, September 17, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
== Yin and Yang ==
 
 
Let me see if I got this straight. Sage of the Six Paths used a genjutsu to create the Tailed Beast, and since he said he the process involved Yin-Yang manipulation, this genjutsu has a nature. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:14, September 15, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
:If Yin and Yang are elements, aren't all [[genjutsu]] elemental? --[[User:GoDai|GoDai]] ([[User talk:GoDai|talk]]) 03:57, September 16, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
::The same confusing thoughts can be applied to the Nara Clan's shadow based techniques and others alike. I think we should avoid dwelling on such thoughts until the manga clarifies more of this. Besides, Madara have only explained how he used the properties of both to create anything from nothing and how the same can somehow be applied with Izanagi. --[[User:Gojita|Gojita]] ([[User talk:Gojita|talk]]) 16:56, September 16, 2010 (UTC)Gojita
 
 
Omnibender knows where I'm coming from because me and him are talking about this, but Izanagi is a YinYang elemental technique that can turn Imagination and thought into reality. Technically, it is much more than a genjutsu, it really is a jutsu that has multiple abilities, one being a genjutsu like ability, another being able to create even living things. --[[User:Sauske-Blaze|Sauske-Blaze]] ([[User talk:Sauske-Blaze|talk]]) 20:01, September 16, 2010 (UTC)Sauske-Blaze
 
 
There is also something else to discuss on Inzanagi, Madara says that only people who have uchiha and senju power can use it, but the uchiha labeled it a kinjutsu, meaning they were familiar with the technique, meaning that many people probably could use it if they bothered announcing it was declared a kinjutsu, meaning that many people would have had senju/uchiha power.....just a though --[[User:Sauske-Blaze|Sauske-Blaze]] ([[User talk:Sauske-Blaze|talk]]) 01:32, September 17, 2010 (UTC)Sauske-Blaze
 
 
sry im posting three times in a row but i realized that in the article you need both uchiha/senju power to fully utilize the technique, which i agree and think it makes sense, the uchiha could only use a variationof Izanagi --[[User:Sauske-Blaze|Sauske-Blaze]] ([[User talk:Sauske-Blaze|talk]]) 01:34, September 17, 2010 (UTC)Sauske-Blaze
 
 
I think there is an explanation of how they knew about it. The matter of the tablet at Naka Shrine which can only be read by possessors of the Sharingan, Mangekyo Sharingan, and Rinnegan which has the story of the Sage written on it. Izanagi was originally his technique, so it more than likely had atleast a small mention of it on the tablet.[[User:WolfMaster|WolfMaster]] ([[User talk:WolfMaster|talk]]) 00:48, September 24, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
== Duration ==
 
 
Madara said during the Danzo fight that Izanagi normally lasts for 'the briefest of moments' (chap 479 p2). I'm having trouble figuring out how to add that info in a phrasing that fits well. Also presumably this is for the incomplete non-senju boosted version, but that might fall under speculation. [[User:ZeroSD|ZeroSD]] ([[User talk:ZeroSD|talk]]) 02:27, September 17, 2010 (UTC)
 
:It was "Senju boosted" it's the only way he could use all those eyes. It's just that he was unable o control it--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez365]] ([[User talk:Cerez365|talk]]) 02:41, September 17, 2010 (UTC)
 
::I know, I just think we should mention the base duration somewhere. [[User:ZeroSD|ZeroSD]] ([[User talk:ZeroSD|talk]]) 05:14, September 17, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
== danzo using the tech ==
 
 
" He also had Orochimaru extend the lifespan of each Sharingan's Izanagi to a minute, allowing him to use the technique for up to ten minutes, with breaks in between as he deemed necessary."
 
 
There's no specific reference to how long he can use it, that says it's a minute for each. In fact it makes a point of saying that's why he keeps looking at the eyes on his arm, because the time of each was extended but not necessarily a minute flat as this says. It just seems like it needs to be changed and not so specific. [[Special:Contributions/173.26.55.148|173.26.55.148]] ([[User talk:173.26.55.148|talk]]) 21:02, December 15, 2010 (UTC) miah
 
:Chapter 479 page 5, Madara comments that Orochimaru must have experimented on the eyes to make the jutsu last longer and Danzo is thinking that he only have five eyes left and take his "chance on the next minute". Page 11 shows Karin counting seconds and gets it to one minute and comments that Danzo's chakra dropped. [[User:Jacce|Jacce]] | [[User talk:Jacce|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jacce|Contributions]] 21:13, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
 
 
== Creation of All Things = Izanagi ==
 
 
Isn't the Creation of All Things Izanagi itself? And wouldn't that mean that the Sennin can use Izanagi, too? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 17:28, February 4, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
That is discussed in length on this page..-_-. Please read all or most of it before making posts like this. {{unsigned|Banan14kab}}
 
 
Just point him to the discussion. I'm leaving [[Forum:New Year's Fact Checking|the link]] so others may see it should they come across this. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 19:18, February 4, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
== Ref-tag ==
 
 
Something's wrong with the references :/ [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 12:49, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 
:It happens sometimes. All you have to do is change a word or add a punctuation mark or something to fix it.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]] [[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 12:52, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
== Why do we not have 'Creation of all things' as an article ==
 
 
if it is truly seperate from Izanagi, we should make a page for it and have Izanagi as a related jutsu.
 
 
It's evidently Yin-Yang element as well so I think we have grounds to make a page {{unsigned|80.229.167.23}}
 
 
== question ==
 
are both sharingan and senju power required to perfom the technique ? the article says that its possible just with Sharinga. But narutobase version of chapter where konan and madara fight say that you need both, so how is it ? {{unsigned|Elveonora}}
 
:For the complete technique yes. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 02:24, October 2, 2011 (UTC)
 
The Sharingan allows for use of this technique for 'the briefest of moments'. For the complete version of the technique, you need to have the powers of both clans, with the mastery over said powers dictating how good their Izanagi is (hence, why Madara's use was superior to Danzo's). [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 02:50, October 6, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
== ningenjutsu kinjutsu ==
 
 
Parts of this post is somewhat similar to the one above 'genjustu'. Izanagi has been classified as a genjutsu but I think it can be better classified as a ningenjutsu technique since it combines both illusionary and real elements when executed similar to the raikages nintaijutsu.
 
 
Secondly i think Danzo trully waisted his izanagi 10 minutes since izanagi is 'capable of turning injuries and even death inflicted upon the user into mere illusions.' it means he could've used kinjustu such as fully activating the 8 gates without any risk of death or muscules ripping which would have given him great power and advantage in battle, instead of using ordinary wind release and other such jutsu's {{unsigned|82.145.209.93}}
 
 
1. It was stated as a genjutsu in the manga. To classify it as anything else is to go against the word of god. Just to be clear, "word of god" is used to refer to the word of the creator of the series in that case.
 
 
2. This isn't a forum. It isn't a place to criticize what happened in the manga and to say what should have happened. Talk pages are for the benefit of the wiki itself. [[User:Ryne 91|Ryne 91]] ([[User talk:Ryne 91|talk]]) 06:12, October 31, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
== Senju DNA ?? ==
 
 
Does this really require it or not ?
 
I'm confused, each time I see people saying it does and then that it doesn't.
 
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:53, April 4, 2012 (UTC)
 
:I don't believe it does. If it did, then how would the Uchiha have declared it a Kinjutsu? Unless snatching Hashirama's DNA is really just that easy.... I believe his DNA simply enhances it. Who knows. I think Tobi comments on it, but I can't remember him stating it was a necessity. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 13:58, April 4, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
It is probably only for non-uchiha members
 
because Izanagi can only be used by those with the genetic traits of the Sage of the Six Paths and also to increase their vitility [[User:Salil dabholkar|Salil dabholkar]] ([[User talk:Salil dabholkar|talk]]) 14:04, April 4, 2012 (UTC)
 
:It can only be used by those with at least a Sharingan. The way you worded it makes it sound like Senju can access it. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 14:07, April 4, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
So both is not an requirement, just Sharingan alone is enough ?
 
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:29, April 4, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:Sharingan is the requirement. Senju DNA makes it better.--'''[[User:TheUltimate3|TheUltimate3]]'''[[User Talk:TheUltimate3| ~Keeper of Lore~ ]] 14:31, April 4, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
I want to roll this up again. Why do you guys think that a Sharingan is enough? Tobi says that Izanagi can only be used by those who possess both powers, Uchiha's and Senju's. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 11:50, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 
:Itachi just said that the uchiha had a habit of using it, it seems unlikely that all of them possessed Senju genes as well. I'm guessing it's also because Itachi's explanation of Izanagi's history and abilities is more recent than Tobi's. [[User:TricksterKing|TricksterKing]] ([[User talk:TricksterKing|talk]]) 12:18, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
::Seeing as we have two sources that are contridictory to each other (unless the Uchiha went on a killing spree) I don't think we can come up with an actual answer for this until more info is put forth. I say this point should go in trivia and stay there until we learn more about Izanagi. [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 12:25, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:::What Itachi is saying isn't contracting to what Tobi is saying. But the whole Izanagi/Izanami stroy is ridiculous. I think we should wait with such assumptions as they are made in the article. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 12:56, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
::::What I meant was that Itachi made it sound like the Uchiha just started to randomly use Izanagi but Tobi said it required both the Senju and Uchiha DNA, which would mean that the Uchiha would have to go on a killing spree to gain such things. [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 13:04, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
I know, I know. The whole thing is confusing, that's why we shouldn't write it down as facts yet. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 13:21, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
I brought this up on ShounenSuki's talkpage once ... it would be ridiculous if it turned out that Senju power is also really needed ... then Uchiha were nothing more than barbaric tribe with Godly powers 0_o But since they are gifted with "Sage's eyes" I think they can do it pretty much with Sharingan alone, Senju stuff is just an enhancement to pretty much everything lol --[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:24, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 
:That's just your speculation. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 13:29, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
::Well, isn't this all speculation as we have no solid prove? [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 13:31, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
To fix the issue, we should mention that there are differences between what Tobi and Itachi say and that BOTH are good liars, so it's unknown which is true at the moment --[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:39, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:::We can only go by what we have. We have Tobi's statement that you need both Uchiha and Senju power for Izanagi. And we have Itachi's statement that many Uchiha used Izanagi in fights and such. I don't see how these to statements oppose each other. I know that the thought of Uchiha going on a killing spree for the Senju DNA is ridiculous, but it's not up to us to decide what's true and what's not. We can write both statements in the article, saying that after Itachi's statement it's unclear if really both Senju and Uchiha power is needed for Izanagi. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 13:43, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
::::So we are going to keep both of them on the page together? I guess that's all we can do for now and hope this is cleared up later. I wouldn't say unclear, more like improbable. [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 13:48, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Well, it's up to us who to trust ... yes, I think we should mention that it's unknown at the moment, and the story of each imply something ... but we should not yet word it like: "Izanagi was common among Uchiha and Senju power is also needed" because most would assume the killing spree scenario is true and we simply don't know for sure ... maybe like this: "Tobi says that powers of both Senju and Uchiha are required while Itachi that: Izanagi was common among Uchiha, thus it's unknown which is true if not both"--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:56, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Requirements of the jutsu ==
 
 
Tobi explicitly says that Izanagi is a jutsu that can only be performed by those who have the powers (DNA) of the Uchiha *and* Senju.
 
 
I say this because this article seems to mislead the reader in thinking Izanagi can be used by the Uchiha clan, but it can be used better when the DNA of the Senju are in the picture. That is contradictory to what Tobi explained.
 
Tobi seemed to imply that Danzo's lack of control over Hashirama's DNA is why he could use use it as well as he could. Minor speculation, perhaps.
 
 
However the article is going by speculation to imply that Izanagi can be used *without* Senju DNA. This isn't the message that Tobi gave when he described Izanagi, in detail, when he spoke to Konan.
 
 
Izanami may not require Senju genetics, but the pages we can nab show that Izanagi does.
 
 
Before spontaneously editing the article: I thought I'd get some words on this before I even thinking of editing.
 
 
Note I made careful use of saying ''Senju DNA'' as that is the requirement; not necessarily Hashirama's particular DNA. {{unsigned|Jingo12}}
 
 
Read above, that's why I ask.
 
Also sign ur post.
 
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:24, April 4, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Izanagi jutsu to all uchiha clan ==
 
 
I think we should include Izanagi to all uchiha clan jutsu. [[User:Slayersimon|Slayersimon]] ([[User talk:Slayersimon|talk]]) 10:47, May 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
:Why? Have they all used it? --[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 10:51, May 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
I don't think every Uchiha has fireball jutsu listed even though it's a coming of age technique.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:37, May 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
:There was a discussion about that. Which I think I started '~'.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:42, May 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== as of latest chapter ... ==
 
 
Is it just me, or the latest manga contradicts what we know ?
 
read please: http://www.narutobase.net/forums/showthread.php?t=191643 the first half has some good points, the rest is just opinion.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 10:27, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
i think that an uchiha can use izanagi for long period of time (like tobi did vs konan ) using only one eye the attack of konnan work for 10 minutes then tobi die use izanagi to come back and did this for more than one time waiting the jutsu end. if izanagi work only on a istant tobi must be died because even if he use izanagi once he come bak in the explosion of konan technique so die again and he must use a other eye --[[User:Nitram86|Nitram86]] ([[User talk:Nitram86|talk]]) 10:43, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Also Tobi said it can be used to alter one's own reality, so how could Uchiha fight over which results to use ?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:02, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
@Nitram86 If I remember correctly, Izanagi doesn't put you in the same place is you were in the beginning. For all we know, Tobi could have just use it to get out of there quickly and waited for it to end, but this is all speculation. As for the link, I would like to try and answer some questions.
 
*For the arrogance, I think the Uchiha have an arrogant streak anyway and their ability to defy death would make it worse.
 
*I think that when Itachi said it would be a problem he meant that multiple Uchiha's used this jutsu. Seeing as the Uchiha were a warring clan, losing members because of their loss of eyesight would be the worst possibility.
 
*For the bickering, I think it would be like kids fighting over who 'died' during a game of soldiers (or whatever else). Someone was suppose to 'die' but didn't because they had 'didn't get hit' (aka, Izanagi) and the others didn't see it that way. It was probably a big hit to their pride (and we all know how bad that is for them).
 
*Using the jutsu more than twice is probably possible. They could have transplanted another members sharingan or the jutsu could be possible with a blind eye (that's pure speculation so pay no attention to it, I'm just trying to find a way to explain things) [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 11:24, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Thanks for replies ... also is it a MS technique or not ?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:42, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:No, Danzo uses the technique with 10 (not sure of the exact number) regular sharingans. [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 16:45, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
even if the jutsu don't put you in the same place put you near the place where you are so the jutsu of konan that is in a very wide area put tobi in danger again and if he use izanagi only once while have a lot of damage?? if after use the tecnique you came back in the same heal when you use the tecnique tobi must come back without any injury but when he come back he missing a arm and have the mask broken...i think the damage come from the time between using izanagi the fist time and the use of izanagi again --[[User:Nitram86|Nitram86]] ([[User talk:Nitram86|talk]]) 12:24, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:Sorry to kill it for you but he [http://c.mhcdn.net/store/manga/8/54-509.0/compressed/nnaruto_509_sleepyfans.14.jpg actually lost his arm and part of his mask during her first attempt to blow him up], not during her 10 minute explosion. He basically came out unscathed (except from his earlier injuries) from that. We don't actually know how far Izanagi can put someone from the starting point as danzo only did it a couple of feet away, just enough to not get injured. [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 12:42, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== most perfect uchiha eye technique ==
 
 
In the latest chapter (587) on page 3, itachi states that izanagi was rumored to the most perfect uchiha eye technique since it can alter destiny... I think this deserves to be stated at least in the trivia section{{unsigned|46.17.233.102}}
 
"''and is the most powerful amongst this type of genjutsu''"
 
? --[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 12:12, May 29, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
''and is the most powerful amongst this type of genjutsu (i.e it is the most powerful amongst the type of genjutsu that are cast on the user instead of being cast on the opponent)... that does not imply that it is the most perfect Uchiha eye technique...Izanagi is both the most perfect Uchiha eye technique and the most powerful genjutsu cast on the user... these are 2 different things {{unsigned|46.17.233.102}}
 
 
== EMS ==
 
 
If the EMS prevents the Uchiha from becoming blind then can't a Uchiha theoretically avoid the blindness of Izanagi and Izanami?--[[User:Elven Windsword|Elven Windsword]] ([[User talk:Elven Windsword|talk]]) 02:17, June 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
:EMS was only said to prevent blindness which stems from the use of MS and its techniques, nothing was ever said about the blindness brought on by Izanagi and Izanami. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 17:36, June 30, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Prerequisites ==
 
 
I realize that the requirements to use Izanagi have previously been discussed, but despite this, I still fail to see where it is concluded that someone possessing strictly Uchiha DNA can utilize the technique. The only thorough description of the genjutsu given was by Tobi, and he clearly stated only one that had both the powers of the Uchiha and the Senju clan, AKA the Sage of Six Paths' genetics, could perform Izanagi period, not just the complete form. --[[User:Uchiha Suraku|Uchiha Suraku]] ([[User talk:Uchiha Suraku|talk]]) 06:36, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
could've been ret-conned.[[Special:Contributions/71.71.58.236|71.71.58.236]] ([[User talk:71.71.58.236|talk]]) 06:45, July 12, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan
 
 
So all the Uchiha mentioned in 587, in order to use this technique were poaching off the Senju and integrating their DNA into themselves (running the risk of possibly being unable to suppress all that power and becoming trees) to use the technique o.O? --[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 09:35, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:Well Cerez, not all Senju were able to use Wood Release (We've seen multiple people from the Senju clan and only 1 can use Wood Release). This would also explain the bad relationship between Uchiha and Senju as well (this is just speculation though so please don't take it seriously). [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 10:32, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
::Oh dear lol. Apparently I catered it to Hashirama too much, sorry. All Senju have powerful life forces but not everyone would turn into trees >.< I dunno about the face thing, if it would hold true for all of them, but the poaching of a strong clan like that is unthinkable.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 10:35, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
We should word it that it has been implied that Uchiha were addicted to Senju power or something 0_o this "senju power needed vs only uchiha power needed" is confusing and often going nowhere ...--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:04, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Regardless, it '''is''' possible the Uchiha that Itachi was referring to did implant Senju cells to obtain their (and the Sage's) power. Wasn't all of that information left on the tablet in the Naka Shrine? Besides, the only two people that have used Izanagi, Tobi and Danzo, both possessed Uchiha and Senju DNA. Until it is seen or stated otherwise, I think it should be revised to its original requirements. --[[User:Uchiha Suraku|Uchiha Suraku]] ([[User talk:Uchiha Suraku|talk]]) 19:41, July 12, 2012
 
:Everything is indeed ''possible'' while at the same time being ''improbable''. The story Itachi told Sasuke lends credibility to the fact that the Uchiha are able to use a rudimentary form of the technique by themselves (i.e. without Senju DNA). I believe them poaching off members of such a powerful clan to be the less likely situation. Also, I think the story Itachi told was pre-founding of the village (not too sure why else an entire clan/so many members would go out to battle). For the time being I don't think anything can be done absent a databook enry for the technique.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 20:15, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
It really doesn't matter what's probable or not. The fact is, there has not been a single named shinobi that has used Izanagi that didn't possess both clans' DNA, and the single time prerequisites were given was by Tobi, in which he stated one must have the Sage's genetics. --[[User:Uchiha Suraku|Uchiha Suraku]] ([[User talk:Uchiha Suraku|talk]]) 20:32, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
==Madara using Izanagi==
 
Why is Izanagi in Madara's justu/infobox?--[[User:Axel Carrozzo|Axel Carrozzo]] ([[User talk:Axel Carrozzo|talk]]) 16:42, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
:Haven't a clue.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 16:44, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
:Given the latest chapter, it's clear that Madara can use it since he is capable of using Yin-Yang Release and taught the kinjutsu to Obito, who used to great efficiency against Konan. Now since Madara has all the prerequisites and taught it to Obito, it's clear he can use it. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 16:51, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
::But this is one of those cases where they have to actually use the technique. He told Obito he would teach him how to use them- teaching can be theoretical with no practical application during the learning process. I can't see Madara and Obito spamming Izanagi during teaching with one eye each...--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 16:55, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
:::No disrespect sempai but that's utter BS. Here's why:
 
1. Madara is the most powerful of the Uchiha, a prodigy inside a clan of prodigies, so learning one the clan's top techniques was likely a given.
 
 
2. Madara has all the prerequisites to use Izanagi...Sharingan, Wood Release, Rinnegan
 
 
3. Madara has knowledge of Yin-Yang Release, of which Izanagi is a technique of...
 
 
4. As seen through out the series and now solidified with this chapter, everything Obito can do as a fighter came from Madara. If we were talking about Danzo learning from Madara, who had a poor aplication of Izanagi, i would agree that it could be a theory only learning process. Now Obito managed to maintain Izanagi for at least 10 minutes with one eye while Danzo required ''10 eyes'' and Orochimaru's aid just to hold that long. That level of skill requires an extensive process of learning and some trial and error.
 
 
5. We all know that Madara and Obito had a S#$T load of spare eyes, so the spamming part is null. Plus the fact that the old school Uchiha (and Madara is an old school Uchiha) were ''known'' to spamming Izanagi, which is why ''Izanami'' was created.
 
 
6. When in any canon moment of this series has a character teached a technique to another character without having at least a minimal ability to use it?
 
 
I'm sorry sempai but there's more evidence for than against...[[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 17:28, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:If you read my post, I at no point said Madara couldn't use the technique, nor do I doubt he can use them. However, I did say this seems to be one of the cases where the use needs to be demonstrated before we go adding him as a user, so that topics like this one does not arise and people don't come running, asking why it's there. That is just my opinion, others like yourself might feel differently. I'm simply going off what the wikia usually does.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 17:36, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
@Cerez, I don't see Minato having his soul eaten by Shinigami only to have it returned back and teach it to Sarutobi this way.
 
@Dark, why did you delete my post?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:41, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
:Yup, We should wait until he actually uses it.~{{User:UltimateSupreme/Sig}} 17:44, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
:: @Elveonora, sorry it was my computer who caught a virus a while ago and it's damaged so sometimes it acts up when i'm writing stuff so again sorry. @Ultimate i believe Elveonora was trying to say the opposite of what you were supporting. [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 18:20, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
:Madara also said he'd teach Obito the Six Paths techniques, despite not having his Rinnegan at the time. For all we know, he could have showed Obito through genjutsu or simply told him how to use these techniques.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 18:23, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
::I was supporting Cerez there. Just got caught in an edit conflict.~{{User:UltimateSupreme/Sig}} 05:03, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Izanagi able to be used offensively? ==
 
 
It shouldn't be said in the article that the technique could be also used for offensive uses as well as defensive? Tobi's words in this page seem wanted mean that during the fight with Sasuke Danzou manipulated reality even to drive home his attacks, as well as "back to life": http://cdn.mangaeden.com/mangasimg/5b/5b75ee5434607f02ee12ba2830571b3e14e5634d0ac4aa3c0b4bfa93.jpg
 
In addition also the comments of Karin in this page seem meant it: http://cdn.mangaeden.com/mangasimg/a2/a2c7b7098dfcca8f07711963542300f388122095cd23db700be18f5a.jpg
 
--[[User:JK88|JK88]] ([[User talk:JK88|talk]]) 20:51, November 5, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Who said it's an effensive technique this article only indicates that it's supplementary what are are you talking about.--[[User:Charmanking2198|Charmanking2198]] ([[User talk:Charmanking2198|talk]]) 21:05, November 5, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
Weird, I could promise it was there...
 
EDIT: I bet the OP refers to the fact, that Izanagi can not only turn reality into an illusion, but also make an illusion real. It's missing from the article, at least I don't see it there--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:18, November 6, 2012 (UTC)
 

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Madara using izanagiEdit

Madara has never seemed to teach obito anything. The brief moments he was alive was due to gedou mazo. He entrusted his will to one zetsu and it became black zetsu. Even if Black zetsu taught Obito izanagi, it was because of obito's sheer skill and chakra that he was able to master it!

Izanagi should not be in the infobox! Because if madara had used it he wouldn't have the ability to gain EMS. It would be from some other DNA. We cannot assume that he used it sometime in past. Obito had only his left eye that had mangekyo sharingan, also to activate susanoo he would need both his eyes and that other eye is with Kakashi.

We can't even assume that madara used it after battle with hashirama, because he had his EMS before death and also he activated rinnengan with his own eyes and transplanted them into Nagato. He didnt have too many sharingan to spam otherwise he would have had sharingan in both eye socket.

Obito has that many sharingan because of itachi's cooperation with him.

I agree on the fact that he has knowledge of all the uchiha kin-jutsu. But that does not means he used it all. If izanagi is in the infobox then izanami should be there too, or none should be present!—This unsigned comment was made by 58.146.115.94 (talkcontribs) .

Either Madara taught him inside of a genjutsu, or black zetsu did as his "will" So by your logic, an Uchiha has to sacrifice an eye to confirm he knows how to do so? Minato learned Shinigami without killing himself for example. What has Susanoo to do with this? The only fair statement is the one with Izanami. There's no other way from where Obito could have learned Izanagi as it's not his personal/new technique, Kishi even bothered to draw a panel with Madara stating: "Come, I will teach you Uchiha kinjutsu, six paths techniques and Yin-Yang release" or something like that.--Elveonora (talk) 23:45, April 5, 2013 (UTC)

Not to further confuse things but wasn't the stone tablet in the Naka Shrine said to have information on their techniques as well as the clan history and Mangekyo bits? I want to say it was Itachi that said it. Arrancar79 (talk) 08:50, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

I don't remember any techniques being mentioned and even if so, Sasuke read the tablet and didn't know about Izanagi before his encounter with Danzo--Elveonora (talk) 13:42, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, he did know of Izanagi. Danzo was surprised by it and said "you tricked me". It doesn't prove you could learn it from the tablet but maybe. Arrancar79 (talk) 22:49, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

Sasuke merely tricked Danzō into confirming what he had guessed during the fight, he didn't have prior knowledge of the technique, otherwise he would have recognized it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:24, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

Baru's usage Edit

The way he used Izanagi was different than how it is usually used. He made an illusionary army of himself (?) instead of using it to avoid any inflictions. Did anyone else see this? --OmegaRasengan (talk) 21:16, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

Looked to me like he revived the other Uchiha killed with the rock no jutsu. EDIT: my bad, got the names confused. The usage of it in general seemed off tho--Elveonora (talk) 21:54, November 14, 2013 (UTC)
Is this later when he got into a fight with other Uchiha before Naori intervened? I understood that sequence as the several fighting Uchiha getting slashed and then Izanaging themselves back in quick succession. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:54, November 14, 2013 (UTC)
Omega is talking about the time, when Itachi said, "There was a fight which Uchiha needed to win at all cost," When the Uchiha mass fell down a trap. Baru used his Izanagi to revive/bring them back up...--East Dragons Feast 03:34, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
That wasn't Baru but Rai.--Elveonora (talk) 13:52, November 15, 2013 (UTC)

incorrect trivia Edit

First, Obito's eye closed only after the technique has ended too, so that's not an error I think. What is an error tho but isn't listed is that Izanagi makes the eye seal itself, while in the anime filler it doesn't do so but stays open and turns white instead, like in case of Izanami. Second, to me it seems like the filler is suggesting that Izanagi and Izanami are Mangekyou Sharingan techniques--Elveonora (talk) 14:07, November 15, 2013 (UTC)

Could also be that only "borrowed" Sharingan close...but I don't know if that makes much sense. The two canon uses of Izanagi only show normal Sharingan, no MS at all. I don't know why Izanagi should be much different, but then again, it was only used with MS so far, so it may be a MS technique....wasn't this already discussed some time ago? Norleon (talk) 15:10, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
Well, the thing is, we see Kamui being used with a normal Sharingan too :-/--Elveonora (talk) 15:38, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
That is the kind of inconsistency I find hard to understand. There are some MS techniques that can be used without activating it (like Susanoo)....it just makes it hard to reason when a MS is required at all...I guess that Izanagi doesn't require a MS but can be used with one as well. For Izanami....regarding that it was only used with a MS so far, it would be logical to write it down as a MS technique but then wouldn't it be unrealistic that one technique requires it and the other doesn't? They are a pair after all.... -.- Norleon (talk) 18:50, November 15, 2013 (UTC)

A little doubtEdit

When used, Izanagi "destoy" the sharingan used to perform the technique, it became useless, correct? Then, how, in the last chapter, the uchiha seems to use it as a simple technique, and even sacrifice their Mangekyo to use it so arbitrary? It's like the lost they had to pay is nothing but some a few more moments of life and fighting, the last to use Izanagi is the one to win! At my point, this filler had some errors, it don't seem to be a good filter to add on pages. Sorry for writing error. MaskedManMadara (talk) 22:39, November 15, 2013 (UTC)

The concept of Izanagi was already filled with this inconsistency, long before the anime filler came in. One asked a long time ago, how could the Uchiha abuse Izanagi if they went blind in that eye. Either way, we know the Uchiha abused Izanagi, we also know that they somehow didn't abuse themselves into blindness. So yeah kinda gotta just roll with that.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 23:03, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
"speculation mode" This could work: "Eye number 1 uses Izanagi to avoid death/make an illusion attack real and so on... the Uchiha then uses eye number 2's Izanagi to make the first eye's blindness didn't happen..." that would still leave only 3 viable usages total tho. The least speculative scenario is that the "abusers" simply took eyes of their dead Uchiha clansmen.--Elveonora (talk) 14:10, November 16, 2013 (UTC)

Or when they used Izanagi in their last eye with vision, they made it to where when the Izanagi illusion was about to end that they had their eyesight back, THEN it ended, giving them their eyes back?? Sounds like some troll bs the Uchiha would do anyways... and it would give a true purpose to izanami ItachiWasAHero (talk) 12:52, December 9, 2013 (UTC)

Requires Senju Power?Edit

There are several things that the anime changes when Itachi uses Izanami on Kabuto, one being the eye's pupil turning white instead of having the eye close. Another is that many Uchiha were able to use it. Madara was the first Uchiha to get Senju power, meaning that nobody before him would have been able to use Izanagi and it wouldn't have been labeled as a forbidden jutsu. The part where Tobi claims it requires Senju power is false and it is recanted in the anime episode Izanagi and Izanami. Daman45667 (talk) 16:38, April 5, 2014 (UTC)

Itachi used Izanami, not Izanagi. What happens in the anime and not in the manga isn't canon.--JOA20 (talk) 16:51, April 5, 2014 (UTC)
Also, Senju power is what allowed Danzō to extend the duration of Izanagi, other Uchiha obviously used it before, it simply wasn't as powerful. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:14, April 5, 2014 (UTC)
It didn't just happen in the anime, the history of Izanami in the beginning of chapter 587 also tells about past Uchiha who used Izanagi. The paragraph in the wiki page starting with "To use Izanagi, users must also have the genetic traits of the Senju" should be changed to reflect the fact that Tobi was wrong and Senju power is not required. (in the middle of writing this I looked at both chapters were Izanagi was mentioned and there is a conflict between the two, the writer seems to have greatly changed Izanagi between it's introduction and the introduction of Izanami) Daman45667 (talk) 00:47, April 6, 2014 (UTC)
You know, it IS possible that they also found some senju DNA, where was it said that Madara was the FIRST to use Senju DNA? Dahk (talk) 01:36, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
I find it extremely hard to believe that there were Uchiha running around stealing Senju blood to activate a Sharingan technique. Izanagi alone can be used by the Uchiha. Izanagi on the scale that Danzō and Obito displayed requires Senju DNA. That's been explicitly explained over and over again. No need to rehash this argument everytime. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 01:41, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
The whole reason this is an issue is because it ISN'T EXPLICITLY explained Dahk (talk) 02:49, April 7, 2014 (UTC)

Going from what Omni said: "other Uchiha obviously used it before, it simply wasn't as powerful", my line of thinking is this.. Uchiha are capable of using it, it's just that Senju DNA increased the power of it. Seeing as the eye techs come from the Sages power, having both bloodlines would in turn increase the power and effectiveness of it. If that makes sense? SusanooUnleashed (talk) 05:52, April 7, 2014 (UTC)

I don't know man, considering that it is a yin-yang release and that it is a derivative of the sages Creation of All Things technique i still stand by that it needs both senju and uchiha power to use it simply because the uchiha side uses yin to create the genjutsu and the senju yang release to make it a reality. There just hasn't been any case where it has been stated that any who used Izanagi did not have senju but the times that it has been shown every user has had some senju dna, i think until someone uses it and we are 100% sure that they have NO senju dna then we have to assume that not only does it require it, but the uchiha who abused it in the past also had some senju DNA, keep in mind they were in a war with the senju so them using their enemies dna to get the upper hand isn't so very far fetched as people seem to think it is. Dahk (talk) 19:25, April 7, 2014 (UTC)

Time-Space Ninjutsu Edit

Considering the reality-warping power of this technique, shouldn't it be also classified as Time-Space Ninjutsu? Various technique have implored two of the three main ninja skills. Steveo920, April 30, 2014, 15:32

No, it's a Genjutsu, not a Ninjutsu. • Seelentau 愛 19:34, April 30, 2014 (UTC)
Reality-warping ain't teleportation. It's pretty much "me god no jutsu"--Elveonora (talk) 21:15, April 30, 2014 (UTC)

Izanagi w/o Senju cells? Edit

May I ask why this article states that you can use Izanagi without possessing Senju cells? (Yes, I read the topic above, but it doesn't answer my question). • Seelentau 愛 16:54, June 22, 2014 (UTC)

I think it's because Izanami was created to punish Izanagi users who abused it's power. That would mean it have to be possible to use Izanagi without Senju cells, especially if Itachi could use Izanami and we know he had no Senju cells at all. Also Madara used it before he integrated Hashirama's flesh to his wounds to come back from the dead.--Narutofox94 (talk) 17:06, June 22, 2014 (UTC)

Because Izanagi needs no Senju power obviously?--Elveonora (talk) 17:09, June 22, 2014 (UTC)

If it was obvious, I wouldn't be asking. • Seelentau 愛 17:11, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
Well, I don't see how would Madara be able to script his eye to use Izanagi before even getting Hash cells if they were needed. I once thought that Senju cells are a requirement too, but that didn't really make sense with the Uchiha abusing it in the past. It was farfetched to think each of them stole flesh from Senju, although one may never know with them--Elveonora (talk) 17:17, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
From what I could gather from scraps of memories, Senju DNA is not needed for Izanagi, but it does make Izanagi work better. For some reason.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 17:30, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
Elve, it was stated prior to Madara's Izanagi, so that doesn't count as an argument. TU3, but why is it not needed? Tobi even said that you can use it only with both powers... • Seelentau 愛 17:37, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
Did he now? Like I said, from the scraps of my memory I could have sworn it was stated that Senju DNA just makes it work better. —This unsigned comment was made by TheUltimate3 (talkcontribs) .
Sometimes (or rather more often recently) we get either vague or contradicting statements. But since now we've seen Madara setting up an Izanagi without Senju cells, we've got a confirmation that they are optional. That's it. Perhaps Obito\s remark was the same like Kakashi's about Sharingan and Hyuga, false/half-true. Or simply a retcon, we have had some. For example, the first time we were shown Madara's death, he was pierced from the front, not behind--Elveonora (talk) 17:50, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, he did. And please ignore Madara's Izanagi for now. For what reason was it stated before he used it? • Seelentau 愛 17:55, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
Obito was comparing Izanagi to Creation of All Things and how it is power of both Uchiha and Senju or so--Elveonora (talk) 18:03, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
Nope. • Seelentau 愛 18:07, June 22, 2014 (UTC)

As far as I understand, the fact Uchiha were able to abuse it between themselves in an indication that it doesn't require Senju cells, though its application enhances Izanagi to the levels we saw Danzō use. Madara being able to use it before grafting Hashirama's cells undeniably confirms that to me. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:12, June 22, 2014 (UTC)

How does the using of a technique debunk the requirements for that technique? • Seelentau 愛 18:45, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
Unless having Hashirama's flesh in his stomach counts as an implantation of tissue, which isn't and shouldn't, for many reasons, Madara used Izanagi without Senju DNA. The fact of the Uchiha abusing the technique would also imply they all had access to Senju DNA and all had grafts of Senju cells as well, which is highly unlikely. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:50, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
Looking at all the bloody battles that happened between the Uchiha and Senju, it's almost certain that both parties hat access to DNA from their opponents, Madara included. • Seelentau 愛 18:53, June 22, 2014 (UTC)

Not to mention that Black Zetsu apparently tried to make the Uchiha and Senju awaken the Rinnegan for all its life, so to me it sounds obvious that Uchihas could use Izanagi only because they had access to Senju DNA.--JOA20 (talk) 18:59, June 22, 2014 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong Seel, but the implication that you are trying to convey is that Madara had had some Senju's cells already before he took Hashirama's, is that correct?--Elveonora (talk) 20:14, June 22, 2014 (UTC)

Madara may not have had already implanted it in his body, but he had just taken a piece of the Senju's meat in their final battle.--JOA20 (talk) 20:25, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, Elve. • Seelentau 愛 20:37, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
Then why go through the motions of taking Hashirama flesh if he already had it? The lulz? The flashback stated he got a piece of Hashirama during that battle and used it in his wound, which is what we saw. Why would he do that if he already had it?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 21:11, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
Seelentau states that he had "a" Senju cells prior to Hashirama's.--Elveonora (talk) 22:24, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
And I was pointing out that isn't logical, based on the events that transpired. First of all, how is "a" Senju cell any different from a chunk of Hashirama meat (ha ha ha), and why would he even bother showing us the moment he got the DNA if there was literally no point?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 23:31, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
The reasoning comes directly from Obito. He claims (in the same speech to Konan) that those without Hashirama's power could only use an "incomplete Izanagi". He then goes on to declare himself "Madara Uchiha who has the power of Hashirama Senju", indicating that because of this power, he could use a complete Izanagi. Which makes sense because during Sasuke's battle with Danzo, Obito noted that Hashirama's cells merely increased the amount of time Danzo could use Izanagi with each eye before it went blind. Edit: Furthermore, "Senju DNA" was never said to be a requirement. Ever. That is a grievous misunderstanding. In every instance, Hashirama's cellular material is specifically mentioned. You need his cells. Not just any run of the mill Senju. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20px 23:36, June 22, 2014 (UTC)

It would be best to just check what Obito said to Konan--Elveonora (talk) 13:00, June 23, 2014 (UTC)

Umm I thought that it was just that the usage of Hashirama's cells allowed people to "perfect" or "enhance" Izanagi?
I mean for one thing, Izanami was created as to punish people who abused it. Itachi even noted that a big problem was Izanagi users using it against each other. If that's the case, I don't think all that many of those Uchiha would have had access to Senju cells. (Besides that, Izanami obviously doesn't require the usage of Senju DNA, and it's considered a pair technique of the same caliber. But this is speculation, so you can disregard the pair technique reasoning.)
For another, Hashirama's DNA in general was noted to be able to boost the power of a bunch of Sharingan abilities. I'm fairly certain Danzo had his cells implanted in him to extend Izanagi's duration, besides of course allowing him a much shorter Kotoamatsukami recharge time and the ability to use wood release. Aeron Solo wuz here (If you wanna talk) 17:32, June 24, 2014 (UTC)
Oops, Ten-tails already said a lot of what I said. Sorry :P
I checked again what Obito said, and the Mangastream translation had him claim that only the combined power of the Senju and the Uchiha allowed people to use it. About Danzo, Obito also claimed that because he couldn't control Hashirama's DNA he only got an incomplete version of it.
But this doesn't make any sense. If Izanami was created to punish the multitude of Izanagi abusers, does this mean that there were actually a sizeable number of Uchiha had access to Senju DNA? Aeron Solo wuz here (If you wanna talk) 17:41, June 24, 2014 (UTC)
Don't even use scanlations for reference, check the viz--Elveonora (talk) 17:49, June 24, 2014 (UTC)
...Aren't Viz translations meant for younger audiences, and thus even less accurate than scanlations? Especially those from Mangastream? Aeron Solo wuz here (If you wanna talk) 17:54, June 24, 2014 (UTC)
Ideally, you would use the translations our providers give because both of those have their highs and the lows. But on the base, official translations are worth more than scanlations. And also speaking not as an sysop for a second, Mangastream, while good, takes massive liberties with what they translate as a way to make it more entertaining for their readers. If anything, out of the few parties that do scan, they are probably the worst one to use on its own because they will change dialogue to make it sound better.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 18:23, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

Sorry for not replying earlier, I'm currently on the road w/ limited internet access.
Anyhow, Tobi said in chapter 510 that Senju and Uchiha powers are required. How can that be misunderstood? I agree that after the latest chapter, it's debateable if Senju cells really are a requirement, but I wanna know about the time before that. • Seelentau 愛 19:50, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

What Seel said. Tobi stated that Izanagi could be used only by those with Senju and Uchiha powers. About Danzō, Obito commented that those who couldn't fully control Hashirama's (and the Senju's) powers could use only an "incomplete" Izanagi.--JOA20 (talk) 20:00, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

Geez, can't we simply agree that this is a major plothole (amongst many others) in Naruto? It's not like Kishi's coherent 100% of the time dudes, his manga is filled with flaws and plotholes. Izanagi requiring Senju and Uchiha powers is just another one. Abe 02:01,6/28/2014

Again, I'll say that you're wrong. Tobi said only those with Senju Hashirama's DNA could achieve a complete Izanagi, then referencing Danzo said that those unable to control Hashirama's powers achieved an incomplete Izanagi. So unless Hashirama had his blood repeatedly stolen by a multitude of Uchiha (which would be require for Izanami), your point is moot entirely. Besides, Tobi is hardly a credible source since in that same speech to Konan, he was lying. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20px 05:01, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
The only way I can find an explanation that sustains the version that there is a "complete Izanagi" and a "incomplete Izanagi" is the following: Whenever, throughout the series, Izanagi/Izanami was used by someone who didn't possess Senju power (i.e. Itachi, dead Madara, random Uchiha clansmen), their eyes simply got blank. However, when used by someone with both Uchiha and Senju powers (i.e. Obito and Danzo), the eyes closed. Maybe there's a hint in here that actually makes up for this confusion. Still, that adds up for two "lies" Tobi told Konan during their fight: that any Izanagi necessarily required Senju+Uchiha; and that he was the one who convinced Yahiko to organize Akatsuki. Abe 05:29,6/28/2014
@Fox, I'm talking about chapter 510, when he began explaining Izanagi. He really only says Uchiha and Senju. Also, when did he lie to Konan (except for saying he's Madara)? • Seelentau 愛 09:26, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
I insist on the version of two kinds of Izanagi based on how the user's eyes look after using it. I mean, look at here: http://readms.com/r/naruto/681/2414/17 there's Madara's right eye, blank, after using Izanagi, even though we have seen more than 10 eyes closing after using Izanagi on Danzo's arm. It doesn't see reasonable to me to think that Kishi just forgot about this. I think he's telling us something. Abe 15:49,6/28/2014

At this point, it should be clear that Uchiha's can use Izanagi without Senju/Hashirama cells. This may seemingly contradict Obito (depending on translation), but he's an unreliable narrator extraordinaire. You have the history of Uchihas abusing Izanagi, so much so, that they required Izanami to stop it. You have Madara on panel using Izanagi without Hashi's DNA (unless you're seriously going to claim Hashi's "meat" in Madara's stomach is equivalent to Madara assimilating Hashi's DNA, in which case you'll have to explain why he spit it up again). You can speculate that he acquired some other Senju's DNA beforehand, but there's absolutely no indication of that. It's pure speculation. Only thing Hashi's DNA does is make it last longer if you can control it as well as Obito. Madara's pre Hashi usage should've settled the argument and the article should reflect that. --CyberianGinseng 11:16, June 28, 2014 (UTC)

As I stated before, I want to know why this was stated even before Madara's case. The many users of Izanagi is no argument, since as I said before, Obito said that you need Senju and Uchiha power, not Hashirama's powers. • Seelentau 愛 11:19, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
But it is an argument. The reason why many people came to that conclusion is because of the history of prior rampant Izanagi usage by Uchihas. It belies common sense that Uchihas were stealing Senju DNA with that level of frequency, yet 1) the leader of the Senju had no knowledge of such tactics, 2) His brother, the sensor, same guy how can determine your bodily makeup in an instant, had no knowledge of such tactics or didn't tell Hashirama, and 3) Uchiha's were walking around with Senju DNA implants, while still getting their asses kicked by Senju. It doesn't make any sense. That's why the many people threw out the so-called Senju requirement for Izanagi right then and there. This latest info just confirms prior conclusions. --CyberianGinseng 11:32, June 28, 2014 (UTC)

plothole Edit

Since Izanagi can turn reality into an illusion and illusion into reality, essentially rewriting reality/fate/history whatever, shouldn't have Madara's wounds that had caused his death disappeared? Since they "never happened" and all--Elveonora (talk) 23:39, June 30, 2014 (UTC)

He undid the death part. Not the wounds part. Also, this isn't really a plot hole, nor does something like this really need to be asked on a talk page.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 23:54, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
Death was caused by the wounds tho. So if you severed his head and the eye would then activate, Madara's headless body would start to walk around? No... the point is, the Izanagi as shown by Danzo completely removes the wounds.--Elveonora (talk) 00:05, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
Only this time, it didn't. Danzo isn't Madara. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20px 00:16, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
It's pretty clear this jutsu operates on the whim of the user. Madara could've rewrote reality so that the wound was simply less severe. There are plenty of plotholes in Naruto, but this ain't one of them.--CyberianGinseng 03:14, July 1, 2014 (UTC)

How about a much simpler explanation that isn't just excusing? Perhaps the wounds into which Madara put Hash cells had been inflicted in an earlier fight, that sounds reasonable to me.--Elveonora (talk) 11:05, July 1, 2014 (UTC)

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