Talk:Indra Ōtsutsuki

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Spiral-shaped Mangekyō Sharingan.

Here's my theory; the spiraling pupils from Indra's first appearance was actually the form of his Mangekyō Sharingan. Steveo920, 9:24 March 27, 2014

Not even a theory or speculation, but logical conclusion. Earlier he was shown with weird eyes and recently with a Sharingan. We also know he could use Susanoo, which requires Mangekyou, therefore the weird eyes having been Mangekyou is almost given--Elveonora (talk) 14:00, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

I'm 100% positive the spiral eyes is his Mangekyo Design. Also UNLESS Hagoromo's brother has the Byakugan, then the Sharingan came first definitely came first and Kakashi's statement has been completely proven false. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 14:25, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Even tho I'm not a fan of the Byakugan > Sharingan conspiracy of Kakashi's myself, I wouldn't say it's been completely disproved, yet... Shinigami ;) I mean, Kaguya's eyes resemble what a Hyuga's deactivated eyes look like. So perhaps:
  • Byakugan + god fruit = Rinnegan - certain genes = Sharingan. You heard it here first--Elveonora (talk) 14:37, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

So, we gonna use this or what? Seelentau 愛 17:32, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

I'd say it's a safe enough assumption for the time being. FF-Suzaku (talk) 17:36, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
I had brought up the topic at the file's talk page. My intention was to update that file, I was just playing it safe and giving people a chance to voice their opinions. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:41, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
Absolutely agree. Its definitely his Mangekyō. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 21:54, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Cannot believe I didn't notice that Elve.. yeah I think Kaguya had the Byakugan now that I look at her.. Also, I severely doubt the Juubi gave Rikudo the Rinnegan.. I think he just had it from birth since his mother took the Juubi's chakra basically, so he was born with the Juubi's eye, just like his brother might have been.. although his brother might have just been born with the Byakugan on the other hand... we just don't know yet on that part ItachiWasAHero (talk) 00:03, March 28, 2014 (UTC)

While I'm leaning with disagreeing that it's Sharingan, the Uzumaki spiral comparison adds another layer to the mystery. However, in this [1], Tobi/Obito says that Indra was born with the Sage's eyes. Obviously that's false, but those spiraling eyes are portrayed as Rinnegan in that scene. The fact there is some misinformation in that page already makes me question it, but it at least has to be something similar to Rinnegan to be mistaken as it. It's possible it's a variation of Sharingan, but as Uchiha have awakened the Rinnegan, it's also possible the same is true of Indra. We shouldn't be ruling anything out yet. EmotionalRockfish (talk) 07:44, March 28, 2014 (UTC)

The Sage's "eyes" are perfectly correct. The Sharingan evolves into the Rinnegan. The Rinnegan is not a separate dōjutsu, but, as stated directly by Kabuto and indirectly by Madara, the Rinnegan is the final result of the Sharingan. No misinformation at all. His eyes are not a variation of the Rinnegan or the Sharingan. Genetic mutations on that level take generations to appear. The Sage does not just have a son and poof his genes have been mutated into a new eye. No. The Sage's son might, in fact, have Rinnegan, but if he does, its only because the Rinnegan is the final evolution of the Sharingan. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 17:01, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
The implication of that is that So6p has the Sharingan too tho.--Elveonora (talk) 17:09, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
That's exactly what I'm getting at. I'm not going to suggest that we add the Sage as a Sharingan/Mangekyō user, because certain people around here will flip their lids, but Kabuto confirmed it with genetic experimentation, and Madara all but confirmed his hypothesis directly. There's no more sure proof than that. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 21:17, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
Well, the current assumption is that the Sage's Rinnegan being the original isn't an updated Sharingan. But that doesn't make sense, since Rinnegan without certain Senju specific genes equals Sharingan. Because of that, So6p is likely to have all the genes necessary for the Sharingan. But even if so, that still doesn't mean he had it. I mean, emotional stressful experience of what **** awakes it, while we don't know if the same is true for the Rinnegan.--Elveonora (talk) 21:28, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
You're misinterpreting the evidence. Kabuto confirmed, genetically, even outright said this (I didn't read between the lines): Senju and Uchiha DNA allow the Sharingan to complete its evolution into the Rinnegan. Madara was shocked by Kabuto's knowledge of this this, to which Kabuto explained that it began as a hypothesis, and was confirmed upon learning about Madara's own body. The Sage was the originator of the bloodline, so, genetically, he still would wield a Sharingan. But he would have the genetic capability to complete its evolution to the Rinnegan, whereas, after decades of genetic mutations, inbreeding, and blood dilution, his descendants, the Uchiha, wouldn't be able to awaken the Rinnegan from their Sharingan. But again, I'm not advocating adding the Sage as a user, because of the can of worms it would open among others. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 06:03, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

The Sage was never shown with or hinted at to have the Sharingan, therefor regardless of speculation it is moot. Although... Another interesting thing is that it was stated in one of the databook or fanbooks the Sage was the only person to fully master the Rinnegan.. that alone hints there were others with the Rinnegan in his time and forward. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 12:59, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

You all are aware that the Sage did not have his children through mitosis right? --Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 13:14, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

You are aware that there's absolutely no evidence that he didn't? And since we're dealing with a man who can literally create life from thin air, we can hold off on the speculation of Indra and Asura's mother as well as the state of their father's eyes. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 14:29, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

This. It isn't even absolute that So6p had a father. For all we know, Kaguya could have become pregnant from eating the fruit, as ridiculous at it sounds. But hey, it's religion/myths we are talking about, funny stuff happen there--Elveonora (talk) 14:35, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
Cerez's comment made me spit out my morning milk. Thank you for that xD He's right though. You are all nuts. The difference between the Sage's sons and the other things he has created, namely, the moon and the tailed beasts; they are stated to be his sons that are part of his bloodline, while the others were directly stated to have been created. Let's face the facts people. This is how genes work. The Sage had a Sharingan. Like it or lump it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 16:50, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
Bloody hell is that how far this has gotten?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 17:47, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, we don't even count half of Zetsu's abilities as Wood Release despite them being plant based and you want us to take genetics as evidence in a series where a guy literally turned a vague spiritual energy and transformed it into 9 individual creatures with their own personalities, lives etc.

I think that would be very misguided. Indra's spiral eye being his own Mangekyou, that's a fair enough logical leap as we now know he had the Sharingan, but even that can be argued with. But assuming just because genetics in our world require that someone has the required genes in order to pass this trait on does not mean that the writer knows/cares to use this in their work, especially, and I can't stress this enough, in a series where someone made life from nothing.

Even say we assume you're correct and he has the genes for the Sharingan, we don't know the criteria for awakening the Rinnegan and it's not like he needed both Senju and Uchiha DNA since he's their source. He could have awakened the Rinnegan as a child and never went through the process that brings about the Sharingan, leaving it, at best, as a kind of recessive gene that got passed on and utilized by Indra and his Descendants because they didn't have the chakra to awaken the Rinnegan. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 17:55, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

If this is your argument Ten Tails then Naruto has Kushina's chakra chains, Tsunade should have wood release, and Kaguya and Asura would ALSO have Sharingan.. but they DIDN'T now did they?? Sage didn't have Sharingan nough' said. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 18:29, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

Even if the Rinnegan is the final development of the Sharingan, and the genes necessary to have just a Sharingan are present in the Sage, I don't think we should list him as having a Sharingan. Let me make a comparison with a similar situation. Onoki can use Dust Release, which is a kekkei tota, he has genes that allow him to merge earth, wind, and fire natured chakra. His granddaughter can use Lava Release, which is a kekkei genkai, she has genes that allow her to merge earth and fire natured chakra. Just because Onoki has something that is one step further, it doesn't mean he can do something that is one step back. The whole dōjutsu situation for me is like this. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:32, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

Both you and Hawkeye have great points. But saying that the Rinnegan is the final development of the Sharingan isn't correct as the Rinnegan isn't the final stage of the Sharingan, since it came first. But the Sharingan is an evolution/devolution of the Rinnegan. We were told that when one progresses beyond the Sharingan, there lies the Rinnegan.

The possibility is that it isn't only the Sharingan that lacks some Senju genes for the Rinnegan, but also that the Rinnegan doesn't carry all the Sharingan-specific genes. An Uchiha carries half the genes needed for the Rinnegan and a Senju the rest for example. A Senju could get the genes required for the Rinnegan that the Uchiha carry without also getting the Sharingan, since the Sharingan itself may be more than just what's missing. The Sharingan lets say is 50% of the Rinnegan genes the Uchiha carry but also other 50% that are new mutations from Indra's mother perhaps. So yeah, in this scenario they would be two separate eye powers with the Sharingan being 50% less than the Rinnegan but at the same time 50% more.--Elveonora (talk) 19:18, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

So basically to summarize myself, Omni and Elve, Even assuming that Hagoromo's kids are in fact his kids and not freaky creations of jutsu, there is no guarantee, even using genetics, that either-:

A. Indra has the Rinnegan (Seemingly having the Sage's 'Eyes' was more a metaphor than in any literal sense)

B. Hagoromo has the Sharingan. (Because there's no evidence for it and reasonable doubt against it)

All that can be said is that Hagoromo had two kids (Through methods to be defined) and one gained a Dojutsu that would be passed to his descendants and the other gained powerful chakra later in life after hard work and friendship power that would be passed onto his descendants. Then, somewhere down the line, Madara would steal the genetic material to give him the second son's traits and awaken the original power of the sons' father. I think that about covers it for sure. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 19:39, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

Nope. For me, Hagoromo had Rinnegan, and Indra had Sharingan. Hagoromo may have had the genes for the Sharingan, but because he also had the Senju share of genes, he had Rinnegan from the get go, and he didn't have Sharingan, per the Onoki and Kurotsuchi argument I presented above. Indra had Sharingan, and the spiral eye was his Mangekyō. Only if he had acquired his brother's cell, a la Madara and Hashirama, he could have obtained the same dōjutsu as Hagoromo. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:49, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

Isn't that basically what I covered? I never said it was impossible, just that there was no guarantee that either of these things were true. While Hagoromo could very well have the genes to create the Sharingan, it doesn't mean he absolutely awakened it and Indra could have used the Madara method to gain the Rinnegan, but it's because of the reasonable doubt to either case that we're not gonna list either as users of the other and go with the idea that the weird spiral thingy is Indra's MS. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 20:06, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

Forgive me, I derped reading the "no guarantee that" part. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:32, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

No worries man, was just beginning to think I'd lost it and somehow misinterpreted something. It does get confusing having to tread the same ground in convos all the time. I mean didn't this topic start about listing Indra's spiral eye thing as an Mangekyou Sharingan and somehow end up as a debate about whether Hagoromo had Sharingan? Anyway, I guess the other topics aside, if we're all in agreement the spiral is Indra's Mangekyou Sharingan we can close the book on this convo and take the thoughts of genetics and Naruto elsewhere. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 23:15, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

I know I am a bit late to this party, but if my memory serves me correctly, and it may not as it has been a while -- but wouldn't the kekkei touta argument be fallacious considering Onoki had to be taught it, and it wasn't expressively stated to be inherited? I mean, even our own page has a trivia stating that, as well as suggesting it isn't even genetic in the first place. And since it would be incorrect, the entire argument falls apart. And by following any rules of logic, if Rinnegan is solely the pinnacle of Sharingan, it stands to reason in order to just HAVE it, one requires Sharingan to acquire Rinnegan. Otherwise, you're suggesting they're two different doujutsus just named the same. So to put it more plainly, if A is required for B (in the sense of one is a later stage), A representing Sharingan and B representing Rinnegan, then how can someone suddenly have B without having A (when the sole purpose is B being an advanced A)? If you agree that The Sage doesn't have it, then why would the logic of Sharingan > Rinnegan have any value?--Taynio (talk) 05:09, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Offtopic, looks like my Byakugan theory above was correct "stands proudly"--Elveonora (talk) 12:36, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Him being taught Dust Release doesn't necessarily mean he acquired the ability from someone who wasn't blood related. I know we're still a bit murky on that, but not inheriting or acquiring it through any sort of biological mean kinda defeats the purpose of it being called something that references bloodlines. He could simply have had the genes for it, and was taught to actually use the ability by someone who also had those abilities, but had more experience. We've seen unrelated people from different villages having the same kekkei genkai before, two unrelated people having a rarer genetic make-up belonging to the same village is hardly far-fetched. Assuming that the Fourth and Third Kazekage won't be revealed as being related in the future, it would be akin to the Third teaching the Fourth Magnet Release. The Fourth doesn't have the ability thanks to the Third, but was taught how to use it by him. That's the point I was trying to make. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:17, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

this is as simple as it can get. fact remains "WE" don't know what the spiral like eyes indra possess is. when did it become ok to makes opinions into facts in articles. Indeed Indra possess Mangekyo Sharingan , but no ones know how it looks or if the spiral like eyes is his mangekyo. I do not think its right to assume what his mangekyo looks like, and I don't think its right to make your assumptions into facts and think its ok to put it in the articles. its only fair to keeps Indra's spiral like eyes a mystery until manga giving facts are reveal about them, sure he possess a mangekyo sharingan, he was shown to have susanno. lets keep it simple, and only put manga stated facts into the articles instead of assumptions. this is destroying Naruto wikia and the reason why many fans curse this site to the grave. just like the senju and wood release articles, you are guys are infactuated with making opinions and assumption into facts. there no reason to argue here, no one knows enough info about the developing of Indra's eyes. the only thing we know that are manga giving facts is that he has sharingan and mangekyo and susanoo. the spiral like eyes are a mystery there is no manga giving facts that says that those spiral like eyes is his mangekyo, if so where is the manga scan that says so. No matter how much you rationalize it, we don't know if those spiral like eyes is indra's mangekyo.--Ankhael (talk) 14:18, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

Slow down and stop being a drama-queen. Where do you see speculation in Senju and Wood Release articles? ...--Elveonora (talk) 14:38, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

wood release being senju clan kekkei genkai, that's speculations --Ankhael (talk) 15:11, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

It isn't.... Was its original user a Senju? Therefore a KKG originating from a Senju Clan member equals Senju Clan KKG.--Elveonora (talk) 15:14, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

The Senju clan became known as "Senju clan of the forest" because of Hashirama's Wood Release. Even if he's the only one with it, the Wood Release is heavily associated with the Senju clan, which is why it's listed as a Senju kekkei genkai. I'm looking for the specific passage. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:34, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

a KKG by definition is an ability unique to a CLAN. now what other member of the senju CLAN has been shown using wood release? and it was never stated hashirama was the originator of the wood release.--Ankhael (talk) 16:44, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

A kekkei genkai is an ability limited by blood. You have to have a specific genetic make-up to use it. It just happens to be inheritable, but it doesn't necessarily is all the time. Hashirama is the only known natural user of Wood Release, but Wood Release is still a kekkei genkai. The fact no one else is known to use it before him should be enough to tell you he was the first. If someone else is revealed, it's revealed, but until then, he's the originator of it. Magnet Release has been explicitly called a kekkei genkai, yet none of the known users belong to the same clan, Magnet Release even appearing in different villages. Even in the family of one of the users, Magnet Release wasn't inherited, none of the Fourth Kazekage's children displayed it. And yet it's undoubtedly a kekkei genkai. Lava Release goes even further, appearing in three different villages. Your entire logic baffles me. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:13, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

wood release wasn't even stated in that manga to be a kekkei genkai, but I'm not about get into wood release when this section is clearly about Indra. I have a clear point about Indra's eyes. We know that he has a Mangekyō Sharingan, we just don't know how it looks. He was shown with the spiral like eyes but there not a single fact or manga scans that says it's his mangekyo. In the naruto world, if it didn't come from kishi or even at least anime implications, it is not canon it is speculation. You can constantly rationalize however you want to, you are still putting speculation into the article, the "fact" remains. If there is no source behind a theory, it shall remain a theory born under speculation. In this particular case, hmhm, you have no absolute source behind your speculation, not even a hint. It doesn't matter many people agree, it could be millions, it will still be speculation. --Ankhael (talk) 03:40, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

I don't need a single one of them to prove that it is his Mangekyō Sharingan. Mangekyō Sharingan change the tome seal of a normal Sharingan. That is a stated, tried and true, manga fact. He is shown to have a Sharingan in his eyes. He is shown to have spiral-like eyes, similar, but not exact to that of a Rinnegan. He can use Susanoo, a Mangekyō Sharingan technique. Logic based on facts from the manga you so tout as the Bible of the Naruto universe would then suggest that the spiral shape of his eyes are the change in the tomoe seal of his Sharingan to Mangekyō Sharingan that are present in every single incarnation of the said advanced Sharingan. Now, if you have a better explanation of what it is, kindly share it along with proof of your theory. Until then, factual evidence supports it being his Mangekyō Sharingan. That is all. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 03:52, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

PLEASE READ CAREFULLY Sigh I know that he has Mangekyō Sharingan, how many times must I repeat that dang dudes do read my messages. take your time and read before replying sigh jeez. Now I would say it once again I am not speculating on what the spiral eyes might be. I am simply saying that we do not know what the spiral eyes are, you guys are speculating that it is his mangekyo sharingan, which kishi moto has not reveal what Indra's Mangekyō Sharingan looks like yet. There not 1 manga giving scan that states or visually shows him using the spiral eyes as mangekyo sharingan or no text giving saying that that is his mangekyo sharingan. Just think about it. Remember I am speculating on what the spiral eyes may be ok. I'm just saying there no direct source in detail about Indra's spiral like eyes yet ok, what you guys are doing is speculating ok. Speculating is what you guys are doing. Let me say it one more time again, I know that he has a Mangekyō Sharingan but there is no direct source on how it looks and the spiral eyes that Indra was first shown with remains a mystery. How hard is it to understand that what you guys are doing is speculation. If there is a scan that was recently shown in one of the recent manga chapters that shows evidence of the look of his mangekyo sharingan or written text stating that the spiral eyes is his mangekyo sharingan please present that scan. I'll be waiting. --Ankhael (talk) 04:46, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

You should've stopped typing after the 3rd-4th sentence. You admit he has a Mangekyō, you've seen the same image of his Sharingan tomoe changed into a spiral shape (the change in tomoe being the very definition of a Mangekyō Sharingan), so, unless you are willing to claim that the spiral-shape is, in fact, a third dōjutsu, then you have just admitted to seeing the proof you so desire, and then throwing it away because Kishimoto hasn't drawn you a banner that says "Mangekyō Sharingan" over Indra's head. Context clues and basic reading comprehension are the key to understanding literature. Things aren't always going to be spelled out for you on a scan, so you can stop asking for one. In fact, Kishi himself will likely never give you one. An author, sometimes, has to assume their readers are smart enough to connect the evidence given to them. That's just how literature works. If you don't understand how that logic connects, then there is no point in further arguing it with you because you'll just keep throwing around your insults. It is his Mangekyō Sharingan, based on the factual evidence from the manga. That is all. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 05:23, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

Where is the evidence where is the scan? That says the spiral eyes is his mangekyo sharingan. And never said he didn't have mangekyo sharingan, you clearly keep misunderstanding me. If you read my earlier messages you'll know that.. but show the manga evidence, and I don't want no explanation, I want evidence and scans.--Ankhael (talk) 05:31, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

Where's the evidence to this theory? Narutobase is supposed to be a accurate resource site for all Naruto media. You shouldn't put theories in an article.--Faeli34 (talk) 05:53, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Ankhael. He has a point. There is no proof yet that design was Indra's Mangekyō's form (well, it's sort of fixed in the article anyway). (Though I also believe that there is the 50-50 chance about the eye being Mangekyō, since Kaguya's Sharingan is unique.) Therefore this message can be ignored. ~IndxcvNovelist (talk | contribs | PR | RLS) 07:28, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

Are you guys seriously discussing this? Indora is a Susanoo user. You need a Mangekyo Sharingan to use Susanoo. The only other eye he has shown besides the three tomoe Sharingan is the spiral eye. If that is not his Mangekyo Sharingan, it would mean it is another, unspecified Dojutsu which is more of a speculation than saying it's his Mangekyo Sharingan. Seelentau 愛 08:53, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

He was told so twice already. For some reason it's less speculative to him to assume that the eyes are an unknown doujutsu than a Mangekyou Sharingan, that's silly.

The spiral eyes were definitely not the Rinnegan (which has signature rings, not spiral) or a mid-stage between Sharingan and the Rinnegan, since the guy was shown with the Sharingan. That being said, for the very last time, the spiral eyes are almost undoubtedly a Mangekyou.--Elveonora (talk) 11:46, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

and I already told you twice, I am not implying that his spiral eyes are an unknown doujutsu, it is simply an old image of Indra no one knows what those eyes are. There is no evidence yet that points to the spiral eyes being his Mangekyō Sharingan. I already know that Indra has Mangekyō Sharingan ok. I already know he knows susanoo ok. I am saying that we don't know what mangekyo sharingan looks yet, we have to wait until the creator reveals it.the User who created this section in the first place came up with this "theory" in the first place. and you guys (specifically) Elveonora tried convincing their self and are claiming a theory anyways and you guys lol are convincing yourself that it is fact, just wait to more info is released about his Mangekyō Sharingan ok, wait until the manga reveals what his eyes ok truly look.s like.--Ankhael (talk) 15:33, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

You contradict yourself. On one hand you state yourself not to be implying for the spiral eyes to be a third unknown doujutsu, yet with another breath you say it's not a Mangekyou. You should settle it first within your head. It's either a Mangekyou or it isn't. It's much more speculative to suggest it isn't. Topic done--Elveonora (talk) 15:42, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

Of course he has Mangekyo Sharingan. He was clearly shown with a susanoo, but there's no proof that those spiral eyes is how his Mangekyo Sharingan looks.

It's ok to speculate that those spiral eyes is his Mangekyo Sharingan, but there's no factual proof stated in the manga. It doesn't matter how logical it is to you or anyone else. It's a theory and you can't put a theory in an article. I'm not here to debate on how his Mangekyo Sharingan looks. I'm here to talk about people putting theories into an article. You can't put theories into an article. Narutopedia is about "facts" not "assumptions". There's Nothing wrong with y'all theory, in fact I like that theory. It's great that you guys came up with that and I'm not going rule that possibility out, but it's a theory. It can't be place in Indra's article until it is reveal.--Faeli34 (talk) 15:55, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

No where in this whole argument I didn't not state that isn't wasn't mangekyo sharingan, I said that we didn't know and you don't truely know what it it is, you guys are speculating not me. It's just an old depiction of Indra we don't know enough about him.--Ankhael (talk) 15:56, April 10, 2014 (UTC) I honestly think that you guys do not fully read messages correctly. And yeah I agree it is a good theory but it still remains a theory.--Ankhael (talk) 16:03, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

I was about to use some basic mathematics and philosophy in order to explain it to you, so you may have finally gotten some grasp of logical reasoning, but it's a lost cause. I'm not paid for this. If it's not enough to explain something to you a dozen times, thousand more wouldn't make a difference.--Elveonora (talk) 16:27, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

Smh I understand what you saying, but you not understanding what I'm saying. I'm just telling you that it's still a theory. Do you understand the concept of this site. This site is base upon facts. Not theories. You can't place a theory in an article. If you guys start doing that then maybe everyone else should start putting whatever they "think" in the different articles..--Faeli34 (talk) 17:21, April 10, 2014 (UTC)--Faeli34 (talk) 17:31, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

why are you tryna pass off a theory in a article. You know I'm going to contact someone that can really fix this, you can't do this. You failed to provide your reference and evidence to back your claim. --Ankhael (talk) 17:43, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

Contact whoever you wish. It remains in the article. Just because you aren't convinced doesn't mean we have to remove information that is easily obtained with 3rd grade reading comprehension skills. That is all. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 18:35, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

I have you know technically, by the policy you are breaking the rules of this website. This wiki deals with canon/anime content of Naruto. Fanon should be taking to the Naruto fanon wiki. everything posted within the Naruto pages should be posted with valid reference from the anime/manga. what you are doing is vandalizing this article by posting your fanon belief theory into the article without reference. their is no where within the policy that states that it is acceptable to exceptional theoretical source from fanon "comprehension skills" "and reading between the lines". you must have a valid source of reference before putting information into the articles, that is why you have the reference section. please read the policy this is common wikia knowledge. you don't have a valid reference behind your speculation and that is called vandalism and misleading information. Don't worry the info will be removed when I report what you guys are doing, but if you can provide a reference from the manga or anime that shows how his mangekyo sharingan looks and states that that is what it is then it may still in the articles. I will fight to get it out and oh yeah, note I am not saying Indra doesn't have mangekyo or susanoo, and I am not implying on what his spiral eyes maybe.--Ankhael (talk) 19:53, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

You know, I think you're going a little overboard. The actual speculation was that Indra's spiral eye was something between Rinnegan and Sharingan, since it was said he had inherited his father's eyes. With the facts we have now, there are only three known dōjutsu (canonically): the Sharingan (along with the Mangekyō and the Eternal Mangekyō), the Byakugan and the Rinnegan. Indra had the Sharingan. He could use Susanoo. He had the Byakugan? No. He had the Rinnegan? No. He had the Sharingan? Yes. Does Susanoo require the Mangekyō Sharingan? Yes. Do we know of other dōjutsu besides the ones listed above? No. I think that pretty much settles it.--JOA20 (talk) 20:08, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
To whom exactly do you plan on reporting to? The highest authorities around are Dantman and UltimateSupreme. Everyone else in here is equal. Dantman and UltimateSupreme are yet to show any disagreement with the topic I believe and the majority of the rest of the community agreed. So don't make me laugh please. You obviously have a twisted notion of what fanon is. The conclusion that was reached doesn't go against the canon, it ties pieces of information that were given together without speculation--Elveonora (talk) 20:17, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
When did UltimateSupreme outrank me? :P --TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 20:50, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

I'm saying that Indra doesn't have mangekyo sharingan and I am not implying that his Spiral eyes being another dōjutsu. You saying that those spiral eyes is his mangekyo sharingan, that is a "speculation" which shouldn't go into the article ok. Indra has a Mangekyō Sharingan, but there is no evidence to how it looks yet. You guys are taking an early image of Indra depicted with his spiral like eyes and speculating that it is his Mangekyō Sharingan with no validation from the manga. I know he has Mangekyō Sharingan but I'm not the one speculating on how it looks, and putting it in the articles.--Ankhael (talk) 21:30, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

Maybe you should just drop it and stop making a big deal out of it. Also, messaging Dantman is pointless as he won't see your message anyway. --Speysider Talk Page | My Image Uploads | Tabber Code | Channel 21:39, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
Frankly, it doesn't matter. He can report as many people as he wants, for whatever reason he wants, until he is blue in the face. The fact is we all had a very, very, very long discussion about this and decided to use logic and reading comprehension to connect the obvious dots Kishimoto leaves in his manga. His threats are meaningless. @Ankhael: No. No it will not be removed. No matter what you say. No matter what you do. It will not be removed because there is more than enough evidence to support it being there. Whether you accept that or not is not the issue, and frankly, isn't our concern. The community has come to a conclusion and an agreement. A logical one, I might add. Now, let's cut this useless bickering and end this. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 22:02, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

No there is way to settle this on both sides.--Ankhael (talk) 22:01, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

I guess if you're so against adding the spiral eyes as his Mangekyo Sharingan, you have a better suggestion about what they are? Seelentau 愛 22:07, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
He's already said multiple times that he doesn't know what the eyes are, and that they could be a Mangekyō Sharingan. He's basically saying that because Kishimoto didn't paint a banner across the page that says "Mangekyō Sharingan", then the eyes are not Mangekyō Sharingan. I can't even begin to wrap my mind around that kind of logic, but that's what he's given us. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 22:15, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

There's no proof those spiral eyes is Mangekyo Sharingan. It's an assumption. That article is biased. That's against the rules of the sight. Indra have Mangekyo Sharingan. We just have to wait for Kishimoto to reveal how it looks. Y'all are assuming it's the spiral eyes and it's nothing wrong with that but you can't place assumptions and the article.--Faeli34 (talk) 23:47, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

That's because the Spiral eyes CAN'T be anything else but a Mangekyou. There's zero evidence of a 4th doujutsu--Elveonora (talk) 08:37, April 11, 2014 (UTC)
I actually agree with him. It is a biased assumption, yes. But that doesn't mean it's bad. You see, over at the German wiki, I decided to allow "logical speculation" in articles as long as they're explained (for example Blaze Release being a nature, Sasuke not having Tsukuyomi etc). We could do the same here. Seelentau 愛 08:42, April 11, 2014 (UTC)
This discussion is going around in circles. In the interests of progressing the improvement of the wiki, we will consider the eye to be Mangekyo Sharingan, until stated otherwise in next week's chapter. Discussion closed. --Speysider Talk Page | My Image Uploads | Tabber Code | Channel 11:15, April 11, 2014 (UTC)

As usual I'm going to push my "Hey look, everyone is partially wrong" button and add a few notes about this debate that is filled with two opposing black and white sides instead of a consensus forming discussion:

The first thing people are forgetting to consider is that they are forgetting the context that they are discussing a team drawn manga and a derivative team drawn anime, not a real-life photo. There is a lot of "He has spiral eyes which could only be Mangekyō" logical reasoning in the discussion, wild "or maybe the spiral eyes could be" speculation. Which while nice in-universe discussion, forgets to put into context the "He has spiral eyes" logic is based on the "because a few panels and frames drawn be one or more of Kishimoto, his assistants, and a number of artists working on the 30 minute anime have him drawn with spiral eyes" logic not something like "in-universe dialog explicitly says he has spiral eyes". People trying to frame the discussion within the context of "if the spiral eyes aren't Mangekyō" need to remember that others may be suggesting things other than just "he could have a different dojutsū". We have a single image clipped from the derivative anime on this article, no one through this discussion has even brought up clippings of the other frames and panels his eyes show up in.

The next thing the other side is forgetting is the difference between wild speculation and a little bit of speculative reasoning. We don't post wild speculation on the wiki. But we also don't require an absolute citation of everything before it shows up on the wiki. That would be practically impossible, there are plenty of edge bits of information worth documenting which will never ever get a follow up to use as a hard citation. This is a continually changing living encyclopedia, so we do put notes on highly probable things before we have a strict citation for them, naturally indicating their status along with the note. IIRC We had notes on Minato being Naruto's father well before the anime and manga confirmed it but had left a pile of hints on it.

As for the article as it currently stands, thanks to IndxcvNovelist's edit the article looks fine as it is now. Including the information we have, but acknowledging it as unconfirmed. ~ Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (Local TalkAnimanga Talk) 02:20, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

good point Dantman, I guess this settles it. hmm Article is pretty good but it still seems a little toward that his spiral eyes is his mangekyo sharingan, thought it would be more in a neutral aspect regarding Indra's mysterious spiral eyes, but I guess its fine the way it is there no point in continuing this circle argument, we are here to work together. At the end of the day we all have to wait for more info. Thanks Dantman and IndxcvNovelist and everyone else.--Ankhael (talk) 03:20, April 12, 2014 (UTC)


On my side it shows that Indra is brother of himself.--Elveonora (talk) 14:04, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Same. ~IndxcvNovelist (talk | contribs | PR | RLS) 14:07, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
Something broke somewhere, its doing the same. It also isn't showing Asura anywhere.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 15:54, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
I'd be surprised if everything was showing up as it should, considering how many times both brothers' articles were moved in the last couple days. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:21, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Proper Verbage

In the Trivia section, it is stated that the conflict between Indra and Asura is based on Hindu Religion; It should say that it is based on Hindu Mythology. Unlike western Religions--where mythology and religion are closely tied together--Indic Religions have a strong divide between Mythology and Religion. The stories in Hindu Mythology are intended to be read as allegories, or parables that teach lessons, similar to Aesop's fables. The war between Devas and Asuras only exists in the mythological aspect of Hindu culture, It is not part of the Hindu religion. NTRJ (talk) 15:03, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Fixed. Thank you for pointing that out.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 15:27, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Cerez365 this although NTRJ is correct, in case of the Devas vs. Asuras it based on the Hindu Religion not mythology. The proof of this is Vrita (an Asura) who fights against Indra (the King of Gods) in the Rig Veda, which is the precedent of all modern Hinduism. If the reference was based on the puranas then it *might* be considered mythology (based on the religious sect). But the war of the Gods and Asuras are definitively mainstream Hinduism.--ElvinWindSword (talk) 15:24, April 4, 2014 (UTC)

Does that mean it's Hindu religion but Buddhist mythology? --Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 15:34, April 4, 2014 (UTC)

Well it's also Buddhist religion as well since the Buddha taught that the devas (Gods) could be seen by a human that had awakened their dibbacakkhu (or extrasensory chakra via meditation). In Buddhistism the importance of the devas shifted however, from their high status in Vedic Hinduism to their non-deity status in Buddhism. So in short both religions hold the above mentioned story to be true, so we should revert the changes from "mythology" to "religion". --ElvinWindSword (talk) 19:17, April 5, 2014 (UTC)

In English, the more appropriate would be mythology, rather than religion. However, that may different depending on the language and translation. What you're describing is myth, lore, a folktale. The religion part itself would be closer to ritual, morality, theology, etc. If need be, we can always google the difference. But as the information relevant to the trivia stands, it is mythology. --Taynio (talk) 23:38, April 5, 2014 (UTC)

Susanoo as Jutsu

I can't seem to add Susanoo as Indra's jutsu in the item box, shouldn't it be listed?--ElvinWindSword (talk) 22:51, April 5, 2014 (UTC)

It is, click on "jutsu"--Elveonora (talk) 22:54, April 5, 2014 (UTC)

Right but I was referring to the drop down menu, it isn't showing up there for some reason. --ElvinWindSword (talk) 23:02, April 5, 2014 (UTC)

Showing up just fine for me. —「SaiSTMangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal) 00:55, April 6, 2014 (UTC)

not the mangekyo

Is it possible that his dojutsu is in fact not that mangekyo sharingan? And the susanoo is simply a jutsu shared by the mangekyo and whatever his really is?--Caseather (talk) 03:26, June 17, 2014 (UTC)

Uh what could it be his eternal? (Sarcasm) but if its not mangekyo then what is it? Because to achieve such you need a family member's sharingan Hagoromo Otsutsuki Rinnegan 03:38, June 17, 2014 (UTC)HagoromoOtsutsuki

I was referring to the original theory of it being a "sharingan ancestor" or whatever that was.--Caseather (talk) 05:09, June 17, 2014 (UTC)

I address this matter a while ago, even though the manga never stated he had a mangekyo sharingan (not assuming he didn't). However his use of Susanoo, allowed them to theorized that he had mangekyo sharingan (possibly did). I was telling them that even though the possibility was there would should properly wait like wiki users instead of speculating information into the articles, however it become ok to speculate when the majority agree on something. Similarly situation with Kaguya's Dojutsu on her talk page..--Ankhael (talk) 12:45, June 17, 2014 (UTC)

This again? What is more speculative, to state that the spiral eye is Indra's Mangekyō or another unspecified dōjustu? To me—and pretty much to everyone else—the least speculative option is the first one. Simple as that.--JOA20 (talk) 12:47, June 17, 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry, your missing the point that I was getting at, don't know about the other user's point, but my point is it's not really about speculating that it's a possibly another Dojutsu. It's about you guys putting speculation into the articles without valid source. It's nothing wrong with speculation, it's just not right putting it into the articles when it could possibly mislead other readers, who looking up information about naruto. The proper way to input this new info about Indra into the article, was to only approach what has been "specifically" stated about Indra into his article. Everything else should be blank until new info is revealed. The thing about Indra's abilities that has been reveal is his ability to use Susanoo, that's it.--Ankhael (talk) 13:05, June 17, 2014 (UTC)

We shouldn't at all speculate on Indra's spiral like eyes, and put it into his article without valid source, that is my point.--Ankhael (talk) 13:09, June 17, 2014 (UTC)

Refer all to the previous topics on the matter. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:13, June 17, 2014 (UTC)

The assertion that it isn't a Mangekyou is far bigger of a speculation than that it is. Canonically there are only 3 doujutsu known to us. So unless there's a 3rd version of Rinnegan or 2nd version of Byakugan that can magically use Susanoo or some whole new doujutsu altogether (which nothing suggests existence of) then it must be a freaking damned Mangekyou Sharingan. And sorry, just felt the need to have a final word on this ^_--Elveonora (talk) 16:29, June 17, 2014 (UTC)

Amateratsu and Tsukuyomi

Should we list them as jutsus since you unlock those first and then the susano'o Riptide240 (talk) 16:23, August 13, 2014 (UTC)

No, you do not do that. • Seelentau 愛 16:41, August 13, 2014 (UTC)
Sigh, why can't we all just agree with each other? In my opinion they shouldn't have been removed in the first place. Our job is to document canon, not to correct it according to our assumptions about it.--Elveonora (talk) 18:46, August 13, 2014 (UTC)
And the canon is that four out of five Susanoo users never showed Tsukuyomi and three out of five never showed Amaterasu, either. One of those five (Kakashi) activated Susanoo immediately after receiving both Mangekyo Sharingan, without time to either learn Amaterasu nor Tsukuyomi. The argument that they could've learned it earlier doesn't count because they never displayed the techniques, even in crucial situations where they would've helped more than anything (Kakashi vs Pain for example). On top of that, a statement by a Susanoo user (Sasuke) supports what Kakashi did. All in all it's safe to say that you do not need those two techniques specifically. Otherwise, Sasuke's statement would've had no sense. • Seelentau 愛 19:26, August 13, 2014 (UTC)

possible relation to christianity

In the Bible there is a story very similar to this one about the origins of the Arabs and Jews. We know Kishimoto often draws on Shinto legends for inspiration so it may be possible that he also drew on Christian lore. (Evilpuppy (talk) 02:24, October 2, 2014 (UTC))

Indra and Asura's story is resembles Cain and Abel more, respectively. In both stories, the younger sibling gets approval from the father, and the older brother lashes out at the younger brother. What I've said has already been noted, so no, I don't think the Arabs-Jews thing will get added when we already have noted a reference to the Bible. --WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 02:31, October 2, 2014 (UTC)


Just saw this scan from VJump: <snip>no raws</snip>

Indra and Ashira having the Ootsutsuki surname. Is it enough to add the Ootsutsuki's surname? Narsha (talk) 03:37, November 21, 2014 (UTC)

Uh, Yeah. :) MangekyoSasuke (talk) 03:42, November 21, 2014 (UTC) Edit: No pics. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 03:43, November 21, 2014 (UTC)

Please wait for other opinions on this. I'd agree with moving them, since the movie is canon. • Seelentau 愛 03:47, November 21, 2014 (UTC) (Thanks Plane in the Desert) The poster does give Indra and Asura the Otsutsuki surname. But I'm not sure that's going to convince certain users to rename their articles... At least we got Tau's approval... but we'll see. ~•WS7125[Mod]WindStar7125 TaskWindStar7125&#039;s Task 03:48, November 21, 2014 (UTC)

The movie is pretty much confirmed canon. I fail to see how this is still an issue. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 04:02, November 21, 2014 (UTC)

I suggest you be patient and wait for others' opinions like Tau said. ~•WS7125[Mod]WindStar7125 TaskWindStar7125&#039;s Task 04:08, November 21, 2014 (UTC)

Movie is canon. Posters are info from movie. I see no problem with it myself ItachiWasAHero (talk) 04:11, November 21, 2014 (UTC)

Fine by me if we change it. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 04:14, November 21, 2014 (UTC)

No offense, but the opinions of others don't really matter with documenting canon matierial. Canonically they have the last name, so it is the wiki's job to display this information, even if some users dislike proper information being shown for some reason. "Let go your earthly tether." (talk) 05:18, November 21, 2014 (UTC)

Am I wrong or in the Jin no Sho Indra and Asura don't have surnames? Even so, I'd still add them.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna JOA20 07:07, November 21, 2014 (UTC)

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