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plotholes and errors?
I remember ShounenSuki sensei stating that Tsunade was born after Hashirama's death, this also makes sense. Konoha exists 65 years, Tsunade is 54, let's say she was 4 during Hashi's gambling flashback. Unless he wears TONS OF MAKEUP, that dude should look, well... quite older. But that's the first part of the problem... He clashed with Madara 80 years prior for the first time, let's say he was circa 18 at the time. If he didn't die, he would have been at least (give or take) 100 years old now, but we settle on 98. Now, 98-50=48... so you want to tell me, Hashirama died as 48 years old but is still damn handsome? Remember the anime-only picture with him and "Mito" holding Tsunade, that was agreed upon not to be canon? Well, brace yourself, cause it's not that farfetched now O_O Talk about eternal youth, but then happy Mito, poor Hashi T_T Kudos to the animation team ^_
The second part of the problem is, that he was circa 34 during the founding of Konoha, Tsunade has been born when he was 44. But Tobirama was already Hokage 5 years after the founding. Why did he give up so early on his Kage position and bothered to die 9-10 years later? (Note: Tobirama becoming Hokage before Hashirama's death is confirmed by a databook, but so short reign?) Unless that damn bully Tobirama kicked his butt for Madara incident and took his Kage hat by force ;D That also makes you wonder why he didn't participate in the 1st SWW, unless Tobirama died before Hashirama, yeah, I'm sure Hashi was already dead as of the war, but then again, the Tsunade gambling couldn't happen and Suki sensei is right, thus Kishi screwed up.--Elveonora (talk) 16:34, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
Well since the Obito reveal, things confirmed in the databooks are getting more and more screwed over. Though the inconsistency I noticed was Suigetsu kept referring to Hashirama as the God of Shinobi, wasn't that Hiruzen's title? Also it's not that far fetched that Hashirama would look good for his age. as a ninja he likely exercises often, he doesn't seem to be a smoker like Hiruzen and most of all, if the Uzumaki have longevity just being related to the Senju and his Granddaughter uses medical techniques to look about 30, I don't see how a guy who can literally sprout life from every pore can't look ten years younger than he should be at the founding of Konoha. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 17:27, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
Dont you think you're looking perhaps a little too deeply into this ? I'm sure Kishimoto will go into the early days of Konaha soon. Hashi has only just come into play, chill out and see where it goes :) --Keep Calm And Call Kakashi (talk) 17:32, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
- Ummm, yeah, gonna have to agree with Kakashi on this one. There are even manga panels showing Hashirama holding a young Tsunade years before this chapter came out. Nothing was skewered here. It doesn't matter if him giving his title up doesn't make sense to you. That's obviously what he did. ~ Ten Tailed Fox
18:45, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
@Hawk, then his youthful appearance should be noted. @@Kakashi&Fox, so Tobirama barely seen Tsunade but Hashirama outlived him to gamble with her? Sure, why not. Also can you provide those manga panels? I remember Suki stating it was an anime mistake as she was born afterwards--Elveonora (talk) 18:58, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
Im going to make my point again and say before we discuss this further we should wait for Kishimoto to elaborate on the story. The guy isnt an idiot and there have been lots of so called plot "loopholes" which have turned out to be plot twists or explained. --Keep Calm And Call Kakashi (talk) 19:02, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
Not really, look at Zabuza, Anko, Asuma, Hayate, Ibiki and some other characters. Their ages and events contradict the official timeline (dates from manga and databooks) I just find it weird that Hashi looks so young despite being pretty much a grandpa and him outliving Tobirama and that he didn't participate in the war he had caused. Also Tobirama wouldn't declare Hiruzen a Hokage with Hashirama still alive I guess--Elveonora (talk) 19:16, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
With the age looking thing we can safely assume he pulled the same thing as Tsunade. With the rest bear in mind that the Senju had incredible amounts of Life force (Yang chakra) therefore we can assume they live for a hell of a long time. Look at the Third Hokage he was incredibly powerful at the age of 67 and he wasn't even Senju!--Keep Calm And Call Kakashi (talk) 19:26, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
Remember the Senjū are related to the Uzumaki, and the Uzumaki have powerful life forces and vitality. Besides, this is a Manga, it's not gonna follow real world logic. Also just because they were different ages doesn't mean they can't be in Chūnin Selection Exams together, look at Team Guy they were in the Chūnin Exams together and they were a year apart, and there were even 20 something yr olds in those same Chūnin Examinations. Kakashi awas a graduated the academy by 6 and became a Jōnin by 13, ageis very wierd in Naruto.71.71.58.231 (talk) 19:30, February 5, 2013 (UTC) Yomiko-chan
I don't think Yang chakra was ever stated to be Life Force, also Hiruzen died at 69. Hashi's appearance isn't THAT much of a problem, but still important and (can't recall the damn word now... strange) to be noted. The problem lies especially with him holding Tsunade and time of death @Yomiko, that is being taken into consideration, and no, Kakashi became Jounin at 9--Elveonora (talk) 19:34, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
@Elveonora: Yes, life force is essentially yang chakra I refer back to when Naruto's nine tails form makes Yamato's wood grow (LOL) the nine tails only has yang chakra due to Minato's sealing. I think the subtext is that the Senju inherited the sage of 6 paths life force (yang) and the Uchiha inherited his spiritual energy (yin) thats why they inherently can pull some bad ass genjutsu. Now that's cleared up, yes I understand that it may all seem a bit hazy but before we start making wild assumptions about our beloved Hashi we should wait a couple of chapters and return to this argument if nothing is revealed :) --Keep Calm And Call Kakashi (talk) 19:42, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
Well, the only arguments present are offtopic and unrelated to this issue, so in short, all we need is the promised manga shot of Hashi holding Tsunade, and if it doesn't exist (which I think) then a source for Suki's statement. If it was just his assumption, then it should be investigated further, but if there's canonical proof behind the statement of her being born after his death, then I think it's pretty much justified to list as an error in trivia or elsewhere.--Elveonora (talk) 19:51, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
- Wow, 9? That really is crazy.71.71.58.231 (talk) 19:56, February 5, 2013 (UTC) Yomiko-chan
Kakashi became a Jonin at 13. Otherwise we are gonna need to make some changes to his article. Why are people saying Hashi outlived Tobi? Is it because he wasn't confused about Hiruzen being Hokage? Lets not forget he saw the dude in his old age in Sand-Sound Invasion and we don't know if Hashi and Tobirama had discussed together the Hokage succession before dying off officially way back then, finally giving the title with the Kinkaku Force incident.Umishiru (talk) 19:59, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
Nobody said anything about Tobi confusion or the gold and silver brothers. --Keep Calm And Call Kakashi (talk) 20:02, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
Changes done, please now stay on topic, we can take this elsewhere. EDIT: sorry for not answering your question, because Tobirama barely lived to see 2 years old Tsunade while Hashirama did long enough to "spoil her and teach her gambling" not to mention he isn't known to have participated in the 1st Shinobi World War and also the Hiruzen promotion reason, everything is stated above--Elveonora (talk) 20:05, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
I was on topic. You guys are the ones who briefly brought up Kakashi's Jonin promotion age with you using another users name in an attempt to rubber stamp your opinion. I wonder if you actually read my post as it is responding to points brought up in the discussion. Since this is how I am being treated, I'll leave the discussion.Umishiru (talk) 20:07, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
@Umishiru you remind me of the Uchiha you know being discriminated against and all ..... --Keep Calm And Call Kakashi (talk) 20:11, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
I wanted to open a discussion on this, but okay, you guys were faster. So, first of all, Kakashi was 9 years old when he became Jōnin. I think we've discussed this enough. This said, Hashirama meeting Tsunade is impossible:
- 48-45 years prior to Naruto's birth: Konohagakure was founded
- 48-43 years: Hashirama dies after the village just bloomed, but gives Tobirama the Hokage title
- 43 years: Tobirama founds the police
- 38 years: Tsunade is born
See? It was said that Hashirama died not short after the village was established, but not before he gave his title to Tobirama, who then founded the police. Tsunade could've never met him. Seelentau 愛議 16:38, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
@Seelentau. Where has the date of the founding of the village been stated ?. --Keep Calm And Call Kakashi (talk) 18:24, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
- Databook I, p. 116-117 and fanbook I, p. 18 and 53 (in the Japanese version, the German pages differ) say the founding of Konoha was ~60 years ago. 60-12=48. So the founding happened ~48 years ago, maybe earlier, because fanbook 2 still says 60 years, even though three or four years have passed. Seelentau 愛議 18:41, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
I think this may be wrong as there a few scenes where Hiruzen Sarutobi is a young boy stood next to both Hokages. He looked around 8 at the time so I would reckon the village is older. However if you get bogged down in all these details it does ruin the experience when watching/reading Naruto.--Keep Calm And Call Kakashi (talk) 19:05, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
- Tobirama wears the forehead protector on that picture, meaning Konohagakure existed already. Seelentau 愛議 19:28, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for support Seelentau ^_ talk about time paradox o_o Really, when bully Tobirama died, Tsunade was circa 2 years old, Hashirama surely died before Tobirama, unless he taught a fetus gambling habits or something. At the time Hiruzen became Tsunade's teacher, he was 24 years old and the Kinkaku Force stuff happened circa 4-5 years earlier. We know Hashi passed on his hat to Tobirama before dying, but surely not almost 10 years before, not to mention I wouldn't say a decade is "shortly" thus it's an error, not to mention as I said, if he was still alive, he would have fought in the war and took his hat back after his brother's death. I know Kishimoto is just a human, but sometimes it appears fans pay more attention to things than he does. It seems like the gambling stuff was just a random idea from nowhere to make a joke about Tsunade and portray him as "Narutoish" an idiot I mean; --Elveonora (talk) 20:48, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
This is all good, but it isn't an "error", it is a plothole created from previous information given, but what is the point of this discussion when there's nothing we can do about it? I mean, sure you guys can hope dates change or what not, but this is as futile as saying that Kakashi's classmates shouldn't have been his classmates. We need to understand that Kishimoto isn't perfect and this isn't a history lesson so stuff like this will always happen.--Cerez365™
(talk) 20:58, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
I like history lessons and I'm a nerd ._. anyways, as you may guess, I'd like it to be noted in trivia. Something simple like "he died before Tsunade's birth, so couldn't have spoiled her" should do--Elveonora (talk) 21:08, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
- But in the chapter he said he did it. You see what I mean, there is no "he could never have done it".--Cerez365™
(talk) 21:13, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
Yes, it's manga contradicting databooks, not manga contradicting earlier manga chapters, but it's written by the same dude, or not? I doesn't matter that the general fandom doesn't know nor care, but we are wiki editors and should note details I think--Elveonora (talk) 21:26, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
- Yes but you're confusing fandom following details compared to an actual story writer. At best, the only that can be done is a mention of it the same way we did for the Kakashi classmate info.--Cerez365™(talk) 21:33, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
Thanks a lot, my intention all along isn't to criticize him (even if I sound unfair when talking about Kishi sometimes) but to point inconsistencies in his work. Stating someone mistaken isn't rude, I think, it's pointing out facts, not someone's flaws--Elveonora (talk) 21:49, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
I actually thought the fanbooks and databooks were written by someone else? Just with his over sight? Is that wrong then? —This unsigned comment was made by 208.124.127.74 (talk • contribs) .
- Kishimoto is credited as the author of those books. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:18, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
Error?
Wait, if Hashirama was able to break the binding of theimpure world resurrection so easily this time, why didn't he do it the first time he was resurrected!?!?!?!?--72.135.19.126 (talk) 03:53, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
That um..... that's a pretty good point.71.71.58.231 (talk) 04:05, February 14, 2013 (UTC) Yomiko-chan
Difference in if they had the controlling tags in them or not. Naito Kiyami (talk) 06:05, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
- They weren't resurrected with their full power during the first time (Chapter 620, Pg12).--~ UltimateSupreme 06:08, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
- That makes sense, cos no matter how strong Hiru was, he shouldn't have been able to beat Hashi and Tobi together. 87.254.80.51 (talk) 23:03, March 27, 2013 (UTC)
Hashirama's Cells
Recently, my edits of Hashirama's unique abilities were deleted; saying that it was made up. But if you recall, it was clearly said that Hashirama's cells alone gave various individuals one kind of enhancement or another. Saying its made up is like saying Hashirama had no power of his own, only people who took his cells. Furthermore, Hashirama was stated to represent one half of the Six Path Sage's power; namely his physical body and life force. That being said, please allow me to restore my edit.Steveo920, 1:48, February 14, 2013
- Again, it was stated that various characters enhanced themselves through Hashirama's cells to gain even a portion of his powers. Yamato and Danzo gained the Wood Release purely through Hashirama's cells, Madara extended his life through the cells, and Obito gained regenerative powers through Hashirama's cells. Steveo920, 2:57, February 14, 2013
Rashomon Gates.
As we've in this chapter 621, our beloved First Hokage can use the Rashomon Gates, in his case, the largest version seen so far. Now for the key question...can he use the lesser versions of it? I believe so...if he can bring out five, more than likely he can bring out three or even just one. Opinions and thoughts are appreciated. Darksusanoo (talk) 13:22, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
Logically. One who can use 1000 clones can also do 1 clone--Elveonora (talk) 13:33, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
@TheUltimate3, we list Oro as a user of Summoning: Rashōmon as well, so why shouldn't we list Hashi as a user of three and one gates respectively?--Elveonora (talk) 13:47, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
- Because I didn't know Orochimaru used the One Gate.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 13:50, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
He actually didn't, I think(at least I don't recall it). He is being listed for the same reasons as users of Multiple Shadow Clone Technique automatically get it's lesser form, nope?--Elveonora (talk) 13:57, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
- Pretty much yeah. Darksusanoo (talk) 13:59, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
- I thought orochimaru is listened because Sakon said something like "this technique which originally belongs to orochimaru-sama...." after he used it with his brother.87.188.251.131 (talk) 18:59, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
Shouldn't it be edited to show that Hashirama summoned 5 gates instead of three?--JUP173R (talk) 20:13, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
- It is edited...sometimes recently created techniques take time to show up on character infoboxes. Darksusanoo (talk) 20:26, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
- Ok I would like to ask some of the sempai's to pay attention to this discussion, as we need consensus. Darksusanoo (talk) 23:10, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
- Orochimaru is listed as using just one gate because as far as I recall, Sakon mentioned Orochimary having thought it to him, or something along those lines. He gave Oro credit for using it. Now, on whether Hashirama can use one or three gates, this is the very same discussion I had with another user regarding Madara, Fire Release: Dragon Flame Release Song Technique and Fire Release: Great Dragon Fire Technique. I was for listing Madara as a user of both techniques, since DFRS is simply put five GDFs fired at once. The point was raised that chronologically, DFRS came first, so it's within the realm of possibility of that being the original conceptualised technique, with GDF being developed later as a lesser form of the technique. I personally don't like it, as I believe the clone example someone used above to explain it perfectly, but I find the reasoning used valid enough to live with, so until someone says that the basic version is the original technique, and the advanced one is the derived one, I think they can be listed as related. At the moment, Madara is listed as using DFRS, that technique is listed as parent to GDF, which Madara is not listed as a user of. In a less canon example, Eight Trigrams Thirty Two Palms is derived from Sixty Four Palms, but it's a lesser version of it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:34, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
God of Shinobi
Why does the page refer to Hashirama by this title?, I don't recall anyone calling him it at any point. TricksterKing (talk) 05:32, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
Suigetsu did like two chapters ago.--Yomiko-chan (talk) 05:35, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
Dunno how I missed that. TricksterKing (talk) 05:37, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
Family
So is there a reason why his brother, Tobirama, isn't catalogued with his family? Scratch that, none of his brothers are added to the family section. Do you guys just not like the idea of Hashirama having siblings? 76.235.4.251 (talk) 07:44, March 6, 2013 (UTC)
- Heavens no! Semantics take a while to bridge the relations correctly because there is now a parent in common whose article was recently renamed, the information is no longer manually listed. Please bear with us, as it updates.--Cerez365™(talk) 08:27, March 6, 2013 (UTC)
Oh, updates. K. Thnx for response. 76.235.4.251 (talk) 09:24, March 6, 2013 (UTC)
Kawarama isn't his brother that needs to be removed.--Anamantiumninja (talk) 02:08, April 11, 2013 (UTC)
- This is already discussed at length on Kawarama's page and until it's proven false, it stays. Learn to read between the lines.--Cerez365™(talk) 02:42, April 11, 2013 (UTC)
No, it should be removed until proven true otherwise you just added information that isn't true because its what you think.--Anamantiumninja (talk) 10:44, April 11, 2013 (UTC)
- Why wouldn't he be Hashi's bro? ~IndxcvNovelist (talk | contribs | PR | RLS) 10:56, April 11, 2013 (UTC)
He could be but they never said or called him brother. So it should be removed until proven true.--Anamantiumninja (talk) 11:03, April 11, 2013 (UTC)
- Again, not going to change. It was implied that Kawarama was his brother. Apart from the fact that he looks exactly like them, when Madara spoke of his brothers, Hashirama remembered Itama and Kawarama, why would it be necessary to even bring Kawarama back into the story and at that point, if we weren't supposed to realise that he was their brother as well? --Cerez365™(talk) 12:27, April 11, 2013 (UTC)
Not to mention his name also ends with "rama"--Elveonora (talk) 12:48, April 11, 2013 (UTC)
I find this fact to be very funny. But what about Toka Senju. What's her relationship to him? Animaster334 (talk) 12:54, April 11, 2013 (UTC)
- So far, she's only been mentioned to be a close confidant of Hashirama's, and his relative obviously. What does she have to do with anything? Not everything in a series is going to be thrown out into your face, and I know too much can be put into subtleties, but at first we weren't going to list him as a broher but that flashback pretty much concreted the fact that he's their brother. I mean look at them, they look like a perfect set.--Cerez365™(talk) 13:04, April 11, 2013 (UTC)
If people are still too dumb to think for themselves, stubborn and ignorant, perhaps we should do the same as with Konan's person of god jutsu and put up a warning up there--Elveonora (talk) 13:07, April 11, 2013 (UTC)
Still, is it a common thing that nearly all the males end with "-rama" in the Senju clan if they're males? I heard this on a forum. Animaster334 (talk) 13:11, April 11, 2013 (UTC)
Nawaki, Butsuma don't for example--Elveonora (talk) 13:13, April 11, 2013 (UTC)
@vCerez365, did you guys ever consider the fact they could be cousins. Cousins can close like brothers, my cousin is like my brother. The manga didn't concrete the fact they were brothers.--Anamantiumninja (talk) 19:00, April 11, 2013 (UTC)
The pre-Konoha male Senju end in "-ma", not "-rama". Look at the kanji for their name. The "ra" is just a coincidence between Hashirama, Tobirama and Kawarama, from the other kanji in their names. Nawaki is post-Konoha. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:14, April 12, 2013 (UTC)
Cousin is much more speculative than brother, also I doubt that his uncle was responsible for him--Elveonora (talk) 14:14, April 12, 2013 (UTC)
We don't know if Botsuma was responsible for him.--Anamantiumninja (talk) 16:34, April 14, 2013 (UTC)
At least put presumably --Anamantiumninja (talk) 23:09, April 19, 2013 (UTC)