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== Status ==
   
== Chakra natures ==
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I believe I once brought a forum topic about this. In my opinion, we should reconsider what means to be dead within Narutoverse and we shouldn't use real-world logic and rules to determine life/death in fiction.
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In my opinion:
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* a dead person/creature = has gone to the pure land
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* still in the impure land = not dead
   
Is the information that Rinnegan gives the user ability to master all basic chakra natures enough to put them in his infobox?--[[User:LeafShinobi|LeafShinobi]] ([[User talk:LeafShinobi|talk]]) 16:51, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
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Lets take Orochimaru as an example. We concluded him as deceased, but that was before the whole Curse Mark reveal. Technically, he never died, as his soul didn't go to the pure land to our knowledge. He only ceased to exist for a while in physical form, but his soul and consciousness remained.
:No, but the fact that he created ninjutsu is enough to put it there.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 17:12, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
 
::He discovered the mysteries of chakra. Considering that after the Sage, Madara is the earliest known user of the Rinnegan, and that people already fabled the Rinnegan as allowing one to use the five natures, it makes sense for him to be listed as having them. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 17:37, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
Not to mention he created that Banana Fan thingamajig. I don't think he could've made that without knowing them. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 18:29, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
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So I ask, is Hagoromo really "dead" ? He is now some interdimensional timeless entity... I would even dare to say a god.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:11, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Rinnegan ==
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Well, this is all logical and nice, but the only problem that characters in the manga themselves deny this logic (Hagoromo included) by constantly referring to themselves as "dead" if their body is gone. Even Oro was referred more than once as "killed". So how about that?[[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]]) 11:21, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
Are we really sure that Sage had the Rinnegan before becoming a host ?
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:Orochimaru and Hagoromo are "special cases" that's why I'm discussing it in regards to them. Even in Narutoverse, the souls in the pure land appear to have no consciousness, since brain is required for that. I suspect that once the consciousness is gone, there's nothing to hold the soul in the impure land. But these two continue to have consciousness even without a form and as such their souls haven't gone to the pure land, meaning they are alive.
I think it's a speculation.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:07, November 28, 2011 (UTC)
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Unless you consider someone crawling out of a neck as dead.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:44, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
   
:The problem with that statement is that we've only seen him with the Rinnegan. [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:green;">Joshbl56</span>]] 18:17, November 28, 2011 (UTC)
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I don't consider them dead, I don't even consider Edo Tensei's dead, calling them "zombies" is ridiculous on Kishi's side, as they are nothing like zombies. My problem is with the direct statements in the manga that say these particular characters are dead, regardless of how illogical it is. Are we going to just ignore them?[[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]]) 11:49, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
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:That's because commonly demise of the brain in Narutoverse also equals death. It's 99% true, save for these two. They continue to: have thoughts, senses, awareness and be capable of actions, that's quite alive in my book.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:57, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
   
::I don't understand how the two incidents are related? The eldest son wouldn't have inherited a dōjutsu if that were the case, tailed beast skills aren't hereditary.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 18:20, November 28, 2011 (UTC)
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::Dead. As dead as dead can get. If his spirit or chakra wants to float around ignoring space and time, fantastic. But he's still dead. The same can't even be used with Orochimaru actually, because Orochimaru was ''sealed'', not killed. Permenant it may have been, Itachi didn't actually kill him, just left him in a state where he might as well been. But yeah, the Sage is dead. Very dead.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 12:32, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
   
Are you sure ? Naruto and Gaara are affected by their Tailed Beasts and tell this to Uchiha.
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:::I get what you're saying, but I think if a character specifically refers to themselves as dead, then that's clearly the author saying they're dead. The thing that gets weird is that he also referred to himself as living chakra. I think if we're going to be accurate with these cases we need can't really call them "Alive" or "Dead", as neither accurately describes their status.--[[User:Soul reaper|Soul reaper]] ([[User talk:Soul reaper|talk]]) 12:39, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
Ten-Tails has eye that looks like Sharingan, if having a tailed beast is not hereditary, then there would be no Sharingan in Uchiha.
 
Unless Sage had Sharingan as well.
 
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:02, November 28, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
I'm pretty sure given the information we have currently. Naruto and "Gaara" (to some extent though his father has the same eyes so I can't speak 100% about the rings or even his abilities) gained physical traits from their beasts, not otherwise. There is Rōshi but at the same time we don't know if he'd be able to use it without the beast. The Sharingan is an "offspring" of the original and apparently only dōjutsu: the Rinnegan. We've even seen where Kabuto has said "what lies beyond the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan..." It seems like somewhere along the line on descendants the eyes changed etc. The Jūbi's eye cab look like all three of the great dōjutsu if you wanted it to.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 19:16, November 28, 2011 (UTC)
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::::Except the status field isn't for some weird metaphysical thing. Because that would be like saying because Naruto is Asura reincarnated, that Asura is not dead because he is also Naruto. Like I said, the Sage's spirit may have lived on as living chakra, but the man is still dead.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:00, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
   
We are at least pretty sure (at least now) that Sharingan is from Ten-Tails, unless as I said it would mean that Sage had both.
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:::::Reincarnation is fairly different. The Sage himself described his state as living chakra. A description also given to the tailed beasts. I think Elveonora makes a good point when he says we shouldn't apply real world logic to such matters.--[[User:Soul reaper|Soul reaper]] ([[User talk:Soul reaper|talk]]) 13:36, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
That would really make him a God.
 
I don't think he had any eye powers before of becoming a host, that's why I'm discussing this and why the page is speculative saying he found jutsu thanks to Rinnegan.
 
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:22, November 28, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
I would like to hear more people's opinions on this and admin's as well.
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I'm not even implying real world logic. Because otherwise I wouldn't even entertain this discussion. I'm saying, as he even stated, that his life ended. Life ending equals dead. If he lived on as a phantom of living chakra, great job. But he's still dead.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:39, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 20:27, November 28, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
I think that saying he got the Rinnegan because he became a host is highly speculative. We've known him as having the kekkei genkai for much longer than him having the beast. Like it was said already, there we've never seen him without the Rinnegan, or at least awakening it for the first time. Considering what we know about it, I think it's least speculative to say he had it before. While sealing the Ten-Tails is a big feat, he is first and foremost known for discovering chakra and creating what came to be called ninjutsu. To seal something, use of fūinjutsu is required, ergo, we would have had to discover ninjutsu before sealing the Ten-Tails. The Rinnegan was said to allow one to use all sorts of ninjutsu. This leads me to him having the Rinnegan before sealing the Ten-Tails. I'm not saying the other way is impossible, but it would require more explanation, so this sounds much more likely to me. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 21:01, November 29, 2011 (UTC)
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@Ultimate, I didn't refer to Itachi's sealing of Orochimaru (which didn't happen anyway) but Sasuke's murder of Orochimaru and then the latter after his death crawling out from Sasuke's neck. And death indeed equals demise of physical form, well, unless you are Orochimaru or Hagoromo, that's what I'm saying. Even in Narutoverse consciousness gets lost once the brain dies and the soul then goes to the pure land. Didn't happen with Orochimaru tho, meaning he cheats death--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:56, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
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:I believe his status at this moment is as same as Minato from Pain's fight and Kushina form Kurama's fight. All those cases have the same situation that Naruto has about to ''die'' several times. —[[User:Shakhmoot|<font color="blue">'''Shakhmoot'''</font>]] [[File:Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg|20px]] [[User talk:Shakhmoot|<sub>(Talk)</sub>]] 14:55, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
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::Weren't chakra Minato and Kushina something akin to Shadow Clones sealed with fuuinjutsu? This is kinda different, as those vanished once the task was over for them.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:37, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
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:::They were chakra, but nothing indicated they worked like shadow clones. Their disappearance was nothing like it. They seemed more like quasi-applications of the original ninshū, the whole understanding each others' feelings, but leaving actual chakra behind. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 19:40, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
   
* And we know Ice Release, Wood Release much longer that them being a KKG.
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== Prince ==
* We have not seen Nagato's eyes without the Rinnegan as well
 
* We have not seen So6p awakening it, seriously ? We have not yet seen him at all other than the silhouette.
 
* Madara can switch between the Rinnegan and EMS ... and turn them on and off.
 
* The point being that the Rinnegan and Sharingan are the one and same eyes, meaning that Sharingan has not devolved from Rinnegan nor evolved.
 
* Kabuto said it's a natural evolution meaning it's possible to attain the Rinnegan from a Sharingan by normal but unknown means.
 
* Taking Hashirama's cells is a forced evolution.
 
* When Rinnegan and Sharingan were once basically the same, this mean Sage had a Sharingan as well.
 
* This would mean that the Ten-Tail's single unique eye is not unique at all and it was just a result of being under So6p's genjutsu.
 
Rinnegan has no genjutsu powers we know of.
 
* If Sage was born with the Rinnegan, it must really be just a mutation as Kakashi said.
 
That would make it as rare as Wood Release
 
* Or Sage was really a demi-God
 
* Or the most possible variant is he get that from Ten-Tails.
 
Thinking that the 2 most powerful abilities (Sharingan and Rinnegan) in Narutoverse are just a mere mutation is silly.
 
So6p being really a demi-God is possible.
 
As I said, Uchiha are descended from So6p ... they possess the Sharingan.
 
People say that Sage casted a genjutsu on Ten-Tails and thats why its eyes has the Rinnegan like pattern.
 
As I said, there are no genjutsu powers of Rinnegan we know of.
 
That would still mean that Sharingan is from Ten-Tails and that Tailed Beast powers are hereditary.
 
Another but weird possibility is that Sage's original eyes were Sharingan and he get the Rinnegan from Ten-Tails.
 
It would be much more believable one of his sons inherited the eyes from him and not from the beast inside of him.
 
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:39, November 29, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
-Ahem- Not a forum. Anyway, the Sage did not have the Sharingan. I don't have to theorize or anything to state that. His son had his own dojutsu, which was visually very similar to the Rinnegan. The Sharingan evolved from the Elder Son's dojutus, ergo it is very odd to say the Sage had it.
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Since his mom was a princess, doesn't that make him one? Not sure how these things work.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:14, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
And I too find it very unlikely and much less speculative to say he had the Rinnegan before the Jubi sealing. Being able to see chakra would definitely be a big help in divining the mysteries of chakra, which he did. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 22:43, November 29, 2011 (UTC)
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:I was wondering the same thing. XD ~[[User:IndxcvNovelist|IndxcvNovelist]] <sup>([[User talk:IndxcvNovelist|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/IndxcvNovelist|contribs]] | [[w:c:phoenixrising|PR]] | [[w:c:springtimeofyouth|RLS]])</sup> 12:16, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
   
Read again please.
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Bump--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:05, March 30, 2014 (UTC)
If Rinnegan is a natural evolution from Sharingan, this would make Sharingan a degradation.
 
If Uchiha got the Sharingan from Ten-Tails, this mean it's not related to Rinnegan since you say Sage had it before sealing thus it cant be an degradation nor evolution of it.
 
If Sage had both Sharingan and Rinnegan before sealing, this would make it more believable that one of his son's line inherited the eyes from Sage rather than fron the Ten-Tails ... but this would leave the Ten-Tail's without any kind of unique eye thus the only possible version is Sage getting an eye technique after the sealing.
 
And I know its not a forum ... I'm discussing it to improve the page.
 
Saying Sage found chakra/jutsu thanks to being born with Rinnegan was not confirmed and it's more of a speculation to what Im saying.
 
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:10, November 29, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
Except it isn't speculative and I did read your post properly. Several things are being assumed, such as that the Sage didn't have his sons before he was a jinchuuricki and that the Uchiha's possession of the Sharingan is related to the Jubi. I didn't say that the Rinnegan was the sole reason the Sage mastered the use of chakra, and even if I had, that wouldn't have been nearly as speculative as saying he had the Sharingan or whatever. We all know that the 3 dojutsu give varying degrees of chakra sight. Also, he learned to make use of chakra through ninjutsu before he sealed the Jubi (duh).
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== Sharingan ==
Also, you're assuming that the evolution of a particular bodily function is automatically better than its previous incarnation, which is incorrect. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 23:31, November 29, 2011 (UTC)
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I'm just going to go ahead and broach this topic. His mother had a Sharingan. His son had a Sharingan. We now know the Rinnegan is the final evolution of the Sharingan with the addition of the Sage's chakra. Logical conclusion: Hagoromo had a Sharingan. Thoughts? ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 07:09, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
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:Despite that he didn't mention it, but I couldn't agree more. —[[User:Shakhmoot|<font color="blue">'''Shakhmoot'''</font>]] [[File:Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg|20px]] [[User talk:Shakhmoot|<sub>(Talk)</sub>]] 07:29, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
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::Despite agreeing with your reasoning, I don't think there's any need to put the Sharingan in the Sage's infobox. Mainly because Hagoromo always used the Rinnegan, which we count as a different dōjutsu from the Sharingan, the Mangekyō Sharingan and the Byakugan.--[[User:JOA20|JOA20]] ([[User talk:JOA20|talk]]) 07:32, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
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::: That makes no sense whatsoever. Firstly, you have no idea how often (or not) Hagoromo used the Sharingan. Secondly, how is it a different dōjutsu? Its the final form of the Sharingan. We now know how it works. The Sharingan evolves into the Rinnegan when the Sage's chakra is within the user's body. And thirdly, we don't list things by how often they're used. We list things based on whether or not people have them. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 07:42, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
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::::I actually have no problem with adding the Sharingan as Hagoromo's kekkei genkai. But if that were the case, should we add Mangekyō Sharingan as well?--[[User:JOA20|JOA20]] ([[User talk:JOA20|talk]]) 07:45, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::The Rinnegan is described as specifically being the power of Hagoromo's chakra in his explanation, which is brought about by combining the chakras of Asura and Indra in a single host. This could indicate that Hagoromo was simply born with the Rinnegan, which I believe is how the situation was explained in previous accounts, which would mean that he never had a Sharingan. Likewise, it seems to me that if Hashirama had obtained Indra's chakra instead, he probably would have still obtained the Rinnegan without ever having had a Sharingan. There's also the fact that we still don't know where the Byakugan and Sharingan came from -- it's possible that they were obtained along with the power of Chakra. Given that their primary functions include the ability to observe chakra, it seems strange that they would have existed prior to mankind acquiring the power of the Divine Tree. Plus, her Sharingan is a third eye, which is just weird. Considering that Obito and Madara both obtained horns when becoming the Ten Tails' Jinchuriki, I can't help but think that these weird physical mutations are a result of the Divine Tree's chakra, not pre-existing genetic conditions. Unless Kaguya was an alien... Hrmm. At any rate, I feel like there are currently too many other possible explanations to just assume that Madara going from Mangekyō Sharingan to Rinnegan means that the Rinnegan can only evolve from a Mangekyō Sharingan. [[User:FF-Suzaku|FF-Suzaku]] ([[User talk:FF-Suzaku|talk]]) 10:12, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
   
Sorry then, but you see this point.
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Kaguya's sharingan seems to be the final form rather than the rinnegan [[User:MangekyoSasuke|MangekyoSasuke]] ([[User talk:MangekyoSasuke|talk]]) 07:47, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
Ten-Tail's eye look like a combination of both Sharingan and Rinnegan.
 
If it was due to Beast being uder Sage's genjutsu, Sage had Sharingan as well or Sage's Rinnegan was with genjutsu powers.
 
If he had just Rinnegan, Sharingan is from Ten-Tails.
 
If Sharingan is from Ten-Tails, can't be a lower level of Rinnegan ... see my point ? :)
 
If Rinnegan is an evolution from Sharingan, and Sage got Rinnegan before ... then Ten-Tail's has no special eye and this mean Sage had Sharingan as well.
 
But you disagree with Sage having a Sharingan thus my "speculation" being plausible.
 
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:35, November 29, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
If the Sage had the Rinnegan and the Ten-Tails had the Sharingan, why would it be "higher" than the Rinnegan? The Sage did seal the Ten-Tails, so wouldn't that put the powers of the Rinnegan above the powers of the Sharingan? [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:45, November 29, 2011 (UTC)
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:From what I understand, the Sage never had the Sharingan. Previous accounts state he was born with the Rinnegan, natural evolution of the Sharingan it may be, but if he was born with the Rinnegan he never had the Sharingan.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 11:19, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
   
Yes. that's why I'm saying both Sharingan and Rinnegan stemms from 1 source, if it's Sage or Ten-Tails ... dunno.
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For reasons I already state in similar on-going discussions, that were likewise already stated by others here, I disagree with listing Hagoromo as a Sharingan user. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 16:33, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
But I'm saying Ten-Tails.
 
EDIT: Unless your question is if it's from the same source, why is Rinnegan stronger than Sharingan.
 
Not really, EMS and Rinnegan are more or less equal in power.
 
No reason to compare, that would be like comparing Sage Mode and Rikudou Mode.
 
Not have much with the topic.
 
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 00:01, November 30, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
I don't mean to interrupt, but who says the Ten-Tails has to have a special eye? Who says that the Sharingan can't be evolved from the Rinnegan? Some snakes developed gills to leave in the sea, but lost the lungs. What if the Sage's son that inherited his eyes had the Rinnegan, but <i>his</i> children lost the Rinnegan and developed the Sharingan because of the world not <i>needing</i> such power? It is said in a legend that a user with the Rinnegan only comes in times of need, who would destroy the world, or create a better world, for example, Nagato. Nagato was the "god of creation" that the legend talked about, although instead of creating a better world himself, he helped make a huge step in creating a better one. What I'm saying is that you are all speculating that the Ten-Tails needs a special eye.
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Do you guys remember a while back when the sage was first shown, his silouette had Kaguya/Shinju's eyes, right after he became a jinchuuriki? [[User:MangekyoSasuke|MangekyoSasuke]] ([[User talk:MangekyoSasuke|talk]]) 19:27, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
I do not read much of the manga, but thanks to your wiki and the anime I have been able to conclude all this. Like Nagato, I hope that this helps to create a world of understanding within the wiki. [[User:Max042599|Max042599]] ([[User talk:Max042599|talk]]) 00:50, November 30, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
thanks for being part of the discussion, but the point being is that if the Ten-Tails has no such eye and it was all just a reflection of Sage's eyes, he had Sharingan as well.
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Nope[[User:Umishiru|Umishiru]] ([[User talk:Umishiru|talk]]) 19:40, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
If the Ten-Tail's original eye was Rinnegan, Sage had Sharingan.
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:I meant when Obito spoke about him. [[User:MangekyoSasuke|MangekyoSasuke]] ([[User talk:MangekyoSasuke|talk]]) 19:42, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
If the Ten-Tail's eye was a Sharingan, Sage had Rinnegan.
 
But then Rinnegan can't be a step from Sharingan if Sage had it before.
 
Meaning there's only one source of eye techniques (Byakugan is a mystery to this) and I think it's Ten-Tails.
 
If it's Sage, people won't accept he had a Sharingan as well and this would make less sense since Tobi need to be Ten-Tail's host to boost his eye powers.
 
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 01:05, November 30, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
So with this I'm going to go with the "this isn't a forum" speech because these theories aren't bettering any articles or getting us any where. We represent information as we see it, not based off theories or assumptions.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 01:14, November 30, 2011 (UTC)
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Nope, can't even see his facial features let alone his eyes[[User:Umishiru|Umishiru]] ([[User talk:Umishiru|talk]]) 20:25, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
   
Before ending this friendly discussion I would like to hear out ShounenSuki's opinion as well.
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:@Ultimate: The details of his birth weren't even touched upon until last chapter. He was only stated to ''have'' the Rinnegan. Not that he was born with it. Logic dictates that if his mother has it, his son has it, and it is genetically proven to be the final form of the Sharingan, then he had the Sharingan. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 22:21, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
I will no longer reply until further manga evidence then ...
 
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 01:40, November 30, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
:My gods, this discussion has got out of hand… So if I'm not mistaken, it's about whether the Sage had the Rinnegan before becoming the Jūbi's jinchūriki, right? if so, the answer is really: we simply don't know.
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Logical people would agree with you, but unless it's spoon fed to them directly, the majority of editors will say no.--[[User:Reliops|Reliops]] ([[User talk:Reliops|talk]]) 18:09, April 24, 2014 (UTC)
:I could speculate, of course. It is heavily implied that the Sage used his Rinnegan to develop ninjutsu, and he used ninjutsu to seal the Jūbi, hence he should have had the Rinnegan before beciming a jinchūriki. Still, we really won't know for certain until we're shown an image of the sage from before he had become a jinchūriki.
 
:The connection between the Sharingan and the Rinnegan is still quite murky as well. We know the Rinnegan can be awakened from the Sharingan, but we don't know if this is entirely natural. Senju genes are most likely involved and who knows what other physical alterations. Still, the Sharingan does have Rinnegan potential, so to speak. However, this doesn't mean that the Sage had the Sharingan as well. It could very well be that the Rinnegan came first, only to slowly 'degrade' into the Sharingan over the centuries, while still carrying the potential to become a Rinnegan, if only when mixed with Senju genes. —[[User:ShounenSuki|ShounenSuki]] <sup>([[User_talk:ShounenSuki|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/ShounenSuki|contribs]] | [[User:ShounenSuki#Translations|translations]])</sup> 01:56, November 30, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
Then if Sage had Rinnegan and it degraded into Sharingan generations later, and with Senju genes its possible to awake Rinnegan from Sharingan, then how is it that back then Ten-Tail's eye appeared with Sharingan pattern ?
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== Hagoromo's Hair Color ==
Sage would had it before or it was Ten-Tail's natural eye and the Rinnegan patern was because it was under Sage's control.
 
Or both Sharingan and Rinnegan is Ten-Tail's original eye.
 
Rinnegan could not degrade into Sharingan when it appeared even back then, so Sage had Sharingan/Rinnegan before or it was Ten-Tail's eye and he got that after sealing.
 
I don't know if its that hard to understand what Im talking about ... english is not my native language but hopefully now you understand what I mean.
 
So:
 
* Sage had Rinnegan and Ten-Tails had Sharingan (It appeared with the Rinnegan pattern due to be under Sage's genjutsu) ... then how is it that Sharingan can turn into Rinnegan when the two are not related ? Uchiha possess Sharingan, this would indicate that Tailed Beast powers/features are hereditary and another problem is that Rinnegan has no know genjutsu powers.
 
* Sage had Sharingan and Ten-Tails Rinnegan (It was under Sage Sharingan's genjutsu) "possible"
 
* Sage had both Sharingan and Rinnegan and Ten-Tails was under his genjutsu. "possible"
 
* Sage had none and gained them after becoming the host "I support this"
 
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:44, November 30, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
I'm sorry, and I realize this isn't supposed to be a forum-esqe thing, but I have to say something.
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Hagoromo's hair color is grayish red: http://i.imgur.com/10qf5No.png The tone color variation yields red: http://i.imgur.com/Fkoeluq.png It is Grayish Red and should be updated on the appearance description [[User:Celebrei|Celebrei]] ([[User talk:Celebrei|talk]]) 11:14, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
Everyone seems to be forgetting some very important facts in regards to the Rin'negan.
 
* First: The Rin'negan, unlike most other Doujutsu, affects the whole body. It manifests most visually in the eyes, but it's powers are not limited to the eyes themselves, mental functions, or chakra. The whole body is part of the Rin'negan. Evidence: The Six Paths.
 
* Second: The Sharingan is an ability focused almost entirely upon the eyes and chakra - for the sake of this particular issue, we'll say that the Sharingan eyes focus more on the "spiritual" side of nin, gen, and taijutsu. By contrast, the Uzumaki and Senju strengths tend to deal either with the body or the physical side of chakra - in other words, they create solid things with chakra, like wood and chains, and have extended life spans and more robust bodies.
 
* Third: Each of the Sage's two sons was said to have inherited a different part (or "half," if you will) of his power. The older son inherited his "eyes," his immense chakra and spiritual energy (see my second point), while the younger inherited his "body," his strong will and physical energy.
 
   
Therefore, neither the older or younger son alone is capable of using the Rin'negan. The same could be said of their descendants. In order to awaken the Rin'negan, a descendant of either son must have spliced or combined his genes or body with a descendant of the other son. In essence, they have to combine the Sage's spiritual energy with his physical energy (which equals - go figure - chakra) - his "eyes" with his "body". We must conclude, then, that the Sharingan as we know it is a mutation of the older son's eyes, and did not, in fact, exist before the Rin'negan. Whether or not the mutation of the Sharingan into its present form is a result of the Sage being a Jinchuuriki is irrelevant, because neither Madara nor Nagato had to become a Jinchuuriki in order to awaken the Rin'negan.
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Yup, his hair is red. Perhaps used to be a more lively red when he was younger. I'm more worried about his skin tho, dude must not have been sunbathing like since ever lol. No wonder since he flies in some multi-dimensional timeless space for centuries.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:21, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
   
There is, in fact, evidence that the Rin'negan cannot be unlocked without the genes of both sons - the real Madara admitted that he didn't acheive his until just before his death, and that he had to absorb some of Hashirama's genes/DNA/powers first. Likewise, he also hinted that he had something to do with Nagato unlocking his Rin'negan, though what that might actually be is still a mystery that Kishimoto might never reveal.
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His current hair color IS Grayish-Pink. There's No confirmation that his hair was red before. So, you should put his hair color the way "it is". Not just from some speculations. The color variation tone your provided is also pink tone, which of course consist some red, but they are not actually red (Not red like Kushina or Mito Uzumaki), unless you're color-blind. If you look at Mito Uzumaki's hair color when she was very old, you'll see that her red hair is dull-red or grayish-red, unlike current SOT6P's hair color which is grayish-pink. Use the front color page, where he's with Naruto, and ask some strangers what hair color does SOT6P have, they'd say grayish-pink, not red. {{unsigned|Gofkun}}
   
On the issue of the Ten Tails, you're assuming that it had to be related to the Sage in some way or manner, and that its eye was either a reflection of the Sage's eye or his method of gaining the Rin'negan in the first place. You're coming up with a number of convoluted theories to explain the Juubi's eye in relation to the Sage's eyes, when in reality the simplest and least convoluted explanation is that they aren't related at all. I cannot explain how the Juubi has its one "ultimate" eye, but you must keep in mind that the Juubi, like the Bijuu later created from it, is a monstrous construct of chakra. Even with a physical body, that body is not limited in the same manner a human body would be, ergo it's entirely possible that it can have both the Sharingan and the Rin'negan at the same time. Or, far more likely, the only reason we assume that the Sharingan is involved is the comma marks along each of the eye's rings, when it may actually be that the Sharingan is not involved at all. In fact, it's almost certain that the Sharingan wasn't involved because the Sharingan as we know it ''did not exist at that time.'' We assume that the comma markings have some sort of significance, but it may simply be that they have no significance at all beyond something symbolic that we don't actually know.
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C'mon people, it's not rocket science to put your thoughts in an orderly way, and respecting the chronology of the topic. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 18:07, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
   
Please, for the sake of my sanity, remember Occam's Razor. I really don't like to risk the wrath of the site's authority over some convoluted theories built on half-remembered knowledge.--[[User:James D. Fawkes|James D. Fawkes]] ([[User talk:James D. Fawkes|talk]]) 21:30, February 11, 2012 (UTC)
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On the cover of Chapter 671 looks something like brown.[[User:Entondark|Entondark]] ([[User talk:Entondark|talk]]) 23:30, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
   
I agree with the long post above mine. But there IS simple explanation like “Occam's Razor” about the ten tails having both the Sharingan and Rin'negan. We all see in the “Naruto universe” the concept of mistakes. Example: Sarutobi didn’t kill Orochimaru ; Itachi with Sasuske etc. So we can presume that the Sage is also capable of mistakes. So with his “Creation of All things” technique, it is possible that he unwillingly created the Ten Tails. Or maybe at the beginning when he was still learning, something went wrong and the monster was created, probably from some dark part of his subconscious, or his nightmares. And there is a picture of the Sage where he has a necklace with six red magatama and on the back of his robe there were 9 magatama. So we have the two sides of the Ten Tails eye. And we can assume that the subconscious mimics reality so if it was created from him it would have that two characteristics. But this is thinking WAY outside the box.--[[User:Danchojack|Danchojack]] ([[User talk:Danchojack|talk]]) 00:12, July 4, 2012 (UTC)
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No, it's Grayish Red/Desaturated Red, the desaturation/loss of vivacity is caused by senility, but Hagoromo's hair is definitely red: http://i.imgur.com/eZk1u9q.jpg This is pink :(which is different from red) http://i.imgur.com/gHStH55.png [[User:Celebrei|Celebrei]] ([[User talk:Celebrei|talk]]) 00:46, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
   
== nickname ==
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Do you really have to use Color Hexa to determine the color that is Obviously shown there? The picture it's obvious that it's grayish pink, not red to normal people eyes. OK, fine here's another example from color hexa. http://i.imgur.com/EygAHdj.jpg . I doubt his hair color was red before, because look at Mito Uzumaki's hair color when she's very old, her hair was dull/brownish red, not as light (grayish pink) as current Hagoromo's hair. {{unsigned|Gofkun}}
Isn't "God" also Sage's nickname ?
 
Kabuto said that with Madara he can touch a fragment of this God's power.
 
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:39, December 1, 2011 (UTC)
 
:"God of Shinobi"?--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 18:48, December 1, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
Just "God"
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No sir, it is '''red''': http://i.imgur.com/8wZPZDC.jpg And this is reinforced by the second official colored page of 671: http://i.imgur.com/9cOnkOW.jpg Just like Mito in the anime, it is grayish/desaturated red. The '''primary color is red''', the desaturation of the hair color is caused by senility, but the primary color is definitely red for both Mito and Hagoromo. [[User:Celebrei|Celebrei]] ([[User talk:Celebrei|talk]]) 04:29, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
"God" is Nagato's nickname.
 
Kabuto called Sage a God as well so I think it should be directed.
 
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:08, December 1, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
:Just because his power was called 'the power of God' or 'the power of the Gods', doesn't mean that 'God' is his nickname. It just means that people considered his power to be like that of a god, which is why he was called the 'God of Shinobi'. The Sage himself was never simply called 'God'. Now the word 'god' looks all weird to me… —[[User:ShounenSuki|ShounenSuki]] <sup>([[User_talk:ShounenSuki|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/ShounenSuki|contribs]] | [[User:ShounenSuki#Translations|translations]])</sup> 22:10, December 1, 2011 (UTC)
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== Asura and Indra Ōtsutsuki ==
  +
Why was the last name removed from Asura and Indra? They are their father's son. They should have their last name. Steveo920, 15:48, April 2, 2014
  +
:Because that wasn't confirmed. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 20:53, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
   
"the power of this god" its a clear reference to him.
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Really, we need something as simple as that to be spoon fed to us? It's the same idiocy as with Tsunade. We know she is a Senju. Madara kept hammering about it. Yet her article isn't properly named.--[[User:Reliops|Reliops]] ([[User talk:Reliops|talk]]) 01:21, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
Its not like "godly power"
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: Though I wouldn't use the term "idiocy", I agree. Not going to change other's mindsets, but nevertheless, I agree. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Yamagakure Symbol.svg|14px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 01:26, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
And why weird ?
 
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:21, December 1, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
Also, do you have something more to say to the Rinnegan stuff ?
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:I agree too, in the case that this is put to a vote. [[User:MangekyoSasuke|MangekyoSasuke]] ([[User talk:MangekyoSasuke|talk]]) 02:41, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:34, December 1, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
:I never said it wasn't a reference to the Sage. I just said that calling the power 'the power of (that) god' doesn't mean that the Sage was nicknamed simply 'god'. It just means that he was seen as a kind of god, hence his nickname 'God of Shinobi'.
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::I agree as well and i highly doubt Hagoromo would refer to his sons using their last name ([[User:Kuroiraikou|Kuroiraikou]] ([[User talk:Kuroiraikou|talk]]) 03:37, April 22, 2014 (UTC))
:As for the Rinnegan thing, I only have to add that just because the Jūbi had tomoe in his eye doesn't mean he had anything related to the Sharingan. The point of the matter is that we simply do not have enough information to draw any substantial conclusions about how the dōjutsu really relate to one another and what exactly the deal was with the Sage and the Jūbi. —[[User:ShounenSuki|ShounenSuki]] <sup>([[User_talk:ShounenSuki|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/ShounenSuki|contribs]] | [[User:ShounenSuki#Translations|translations]])</sup> 22:37, December 1, 2011 (UTC)
 
   
Fair enough,
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Then we are in agreement?--[[User:Reliops|Reliops]] ([[User talk:Reliops|talk]]) 12:04, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:39, December 1, 2011 (UTC)
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:Nope. They weren't named that, so they stay without the surname. What if Indora was called Uchiha because of reasons? • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|]]</sup> 12:23, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Spelling correction ==
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If that were the case then the manga would have said so. What parent refers to their immediate children by their full name? Given how Hagoromo took on his mother surname, why wouldn't his children. Also, considering the fact they were both candidates to be his successors, that would indicate they would have taken his surname.--[[User:Reliops|Reliops]] ([[User talk:Reliops|talk]]) 17:16, April 24, 2014 (UTC)
  +
:Still, it wasn't confirmed. Is it really that big a deal? Each of them is known to be Hagoromo's son, so no need to put an Ōtsutsuki after their first names to show that they are the Sage's sons.--[[User:JOA20|JOA20]] ([[User talk:JOA20|talk]]) 17:22, April 24, 2014 (UTC)
   
Its Rokudo (Roku = six, do = path) not Rikudo (Riku = land/shore or agony of separation). Corrected it in the main article but not sure how to fix it in the side info box. --[[Special:Contributions/65.182.237.52|65.182.237.52]] ([[User talk:65.182.237.52|talk]]) 06:57, December 27, 2011 (UTC) Abe ;)
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== Skin Color ==
:Read [[Talk:Sage of the Six Paths/Archive 1#Isn't it Rokudou sennin not Rikudou]]. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 14:50, December 27, 2011 (UTC)
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Should it be added to the Appearence section that his skin color is pale blue-ish? Or wathever that color is? --[[User:RIkudo|RIkudo]] ([[User talk:RIkudo|talk]]) 02:50, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
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:Call it pale. Just one colour back and forth tug of war for him is enough. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 02:52, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Wood Style ==
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== Marking or third eye? ==
Why doesnt the sage of the six paths have Wood Style listed as one of his KKG?
 
In chapter 510 Tobi stated the Sot6p was both clans and both bloodlines in one person. This would mean that both bloodlines are needed to gain the rinnengan.
 
   
[[Special:Contributions/98.80.108.193|98.80.108.193]] ([[User talk:98.80.108.193|talk]]) 16:32, January 2, 2012 (UTC)
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I was wondering, is the thing on Hagoromo's forehead really a marking, or is it possible that it's a third eye? After all, it looks the same as his mother's when it's open. [[User:Bloodytom|Bloodytom]] ([[User talk:Bloodytom|talk]]) 06:23, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
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:It's a marking. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 08:03, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
   
:Because Hashirama was the first person ever to have Wood Release, much later in history. Just because the Sage originated the line Wood Release appeared into, it doesn't mean he had. Bloodlines change over time. What you're asking is the equivalent of adding Sharingan to Tsunade, because like the Uchiha, she's also a descendent of the Sage. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 16:44, January 2, 2012 (UTC)
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How do you know that for a fact? It looks to me like he has a third eye like this mother had.--[[User:Reliops|Reliops]] ([[User talk:Reliops|talk]]) 21:24, April 18, 2014 (UTC)
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:Because it was never ever indicated to be anything else than a marking. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 21:28, April 18, 2014 (UTC)
  +
::Definitely a marking, like undoubtedly. It's drawn on his forehead, not sticking in and out like an eye--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:09, April 19, 2014 (UTC)
   
Maybe he had, maybe not ... sorry Omni, I just one comment.
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== Senjutsu of six paths ==
Kabuto commented on Madara being a fragment of Sage's power, so Sage should have it as well.
 
Isn't it possible for something to appear dozen of generations later ?
 
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:23, January 2, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
No. Madara had the Rinnegan. Kabuto's statement was in regards to that, not Wood Release, which Madara didn't even use until after Kabuto made that statement. Hashirama was the original possessor of Wood Release. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 19:43, January 2, 2012 (UTC)
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Hi , I am new and I am curious what Madara meant by mentioning it when Naruto's back in new mode was shown. Could "Senjutsu of six paths" be reffering to Hagoromo's Senjutsu, original most powerfull Senjutsu ?.... It could be invented by Hagoromo when he found out Ten tails is made of nature energy.
   
"Hashirama was the original possessor of Wood Release"
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Could it mean that Hagoromo was also Senjutsu' user..., the wielder of Original Senjutsu which was later taught by Toad, Snake and Slug are Sage's personal summons. Maybe it could also explain why Toad Sage mode, Slug Sage mode and Snake Sage mode have most of the common abilities with few unique, which would be result of Hagoromo's Ultimate Senjutsu being adapted by different animals which changed it to fit their tastes and use. I mean Toad Sage mode is known of great physcial strength/durability of the body, Snake Sage mode is known of Speed and agility and Slug Sage mode would be known by healing/regenerative powers.
Yeah, until Kishi states otherwise.
 
Hashirama is the original source just as Sharingan came from Byakugan and Rinnegan is a mutation.
 
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 20:46, January 2, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
Your Byakugan point came from Kakashi who himself said it was a rumor. This has been stated by characters in the series as fact. Your Rinnegan point is moot as it also comes from Kakashi, who believed the Sage to be a myth, which we knwo to be false becasuse of the Tailed Beasts referencing him and the fact that they named him (and the existence of the Naka Shrine Tablet.)[[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 20:53, January 2, 2012 (UTC)
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What do you think ?
   
That was an example.
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--[[User:TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki|TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki]] ([[User talk:TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki|talk]]) 21:41, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
The "fact" stays as long as not proven wrong or otherwise.
 
For years Kyubi was some demon fox and as well as other Tailed Beasts evil, now they are just tinny pets.
 
I think what OP is asking ... if Uchiha + Senju = So6p power/blood/Rinnegan whatever, that would mean when you take flesh from any random Senju not just Hashirama, you get the Rinnegan (this is not confirmed but likely) or just simply to "mimic" Sage's power/blood ?
 
   
It was always said that sharingan + HASHIRAMA'S power = power of So6p
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Senjutsu is basically using of senjutsu chakra, which is based on natural energy. Now, Juubi is a mass of natural energy, and it was sealed inside Hagoromo. You figure the rest.[[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]])
This would mean that Madara/Tobi/Sasuke/Any Uchiha taking Tobirama's flesh instead would result in So6p power, but this does not seems to be the case.
 
--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:14, January 2, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
OP is saying that Wood Release should be in the Sage's infobox because Hashirama was his blood. Things were explained, and now you're just speculating. Elveonora, more often than not the discussions you take part into turn into forum talk. Please police yourself. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 21:18, January 2, 2012 (UTC)
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No offense, but I think people went full retard with the "senjutsu of six paths" I'd like it gone from Naruto's article too and so on. Basically, all it means is "senjutsu of sage of the six paths" shortened or even more directly, Hagoromo's Senjutsu--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 09:05, April 18, 2014 (UTC)
   
(E/C)
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Exactly, This is what I meant. Hagoromo Ootsutsuki should be also listed as Senjutsu user. Besides Senjusu of six paths is shortcut to the Senjutsu of Sage of six paths, which clearly imply Hagoromo as Senjutsu user. Besides if you take carefull look at Naruto's performance in the lastest chapter then clearly not just his physical strentgh/durabiltiy of the body increased which is main trait of the Toad Sage mode but also his speed/agility(Snake Sage mode's trait) and also healing/regeneration powers(Hashirama's/Slug Sage mode's trait) also get increased, which clearly indicate Hagoromo was not just Senjutsu user but also user of Ultimate Senjutsu which was later derivered into animal Sage modes: Toad, Snake, Slug.
Pretty sure Hashirama is used because he's essentially the best his clan ever had or was said to have. I mean, he defeated Madara and Kurama alone, had the power of Wood Release, and could control several Tailed Beasts by himself. Wh would you choose anyone else? Noting in the series implies that the So6P had anything to do with Wood Release and everything has stated and shown that Hashirama is the original possessor of it.
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--[[User:TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki|TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki]] ([[User talk:TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki|talk]]) 09:11, April 18, 2014 (UTC)
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:He with no doubt is?/was a Senjutsu user, it's hardly refutable at this point. The reason why I reverted your edit was because speculation and grammar, sorry.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 09:15, April 18, 2014 (UTC)
   
Edit: Only the Kyubi and Shukaku were regarded as 'evil' in the series, and that was because of the former attack Konoha and the latter having extreme blood lust.. The other Tailed Beasts didn't get referenced or brought up until much later, and even then the weren't all said to be evil.[[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 21:21, January 2, 2012 (UTC)
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Ok, I apologize for my grammar and I didn't want to create mess here ;/. Anyway while you are complete right about speculation of Toad, Snake and Slug sage modes derivered from the Senjutsu of six paths, I don't see reason why should't you list Hagoromo as Senjutsu user, please explain it to me. Clearly the way to harm Ten tails is use of Sage chakra and Hagoromo fought it. Another point is that Naruto just recived power from Hagoromo and Madara called it Senjtusu of six paths, while it also was proven that Naruto has not more pigmentation around his eyes, just like Sage of six paths.
   
Let's end the forum talk. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 21:33, January 2, 2012 (UTC)
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Tell me why am I wrong ?
:Like I said, no more forum talk. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:51, January 3, 2012 (UTC)
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--[[User:TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki|TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki]] ([[User talk:TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki|talk]]) 09:24, April 18, 2014 (UTC)
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::If it were on me alone, he would be listed as a user by now. Just wait for feedback of others first--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 09:30, April 18, 2014 (UTC)
   
== All Kekkei Genkai ==
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Ok, then I will wait for feedback of others ;), thanks for fast response
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--[[User:TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki|TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki]] ([[User talk:TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki|talk]]) 09:33, April 18, 2014 (UTC)
   
Wouldn't it make sense if the Sage had every known Kekkei Genkai? I mean, how else did it start.
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Until we learn that Hagoromo's appearance is due to a permanent Sage Mode, I'm against him being listed as Sage Mode user. This is why I'm hating these latest chapters, they're taking everything we know and tap-dancing on top of it. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 14:21, April 21, 2014 (UTC)
  +
:I don't think Hagoromo is even using Sage Mode. Something tells me his chakra just happens to be Senjutsu--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:44, April 21, 2014 (UTC)
   
The first hokage probably was the first to activate this style, not create it.
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== We now know of ==
[[User:Antonino200|Antonino200]] ([[User talk:Antonino200|talk]]) 20:21, February 1, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
Hashirama was said to be the only possessor of Wood Release (naturally). And no, it wouldn't make ''any'' sense if he had every KKG. KKGs are a result of a certain combination of genes, and obviously the Sage didn't have every combination of genes, much less every KKG. Also, not a forum. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 20:23, February 1, 2012 (UTC)
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Another person besides Gaara who has retained his jinchuuriki powers, it should be noted.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:00, April 19, 2014 (UTC)
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:Since a jinchūriki dies when a tailed beast is extracted, why do we assume that they would lose these abilities in the first place? --[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 00:03, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
  +
::Good point. The answer is, dunno, we just assume, because logic has it that if you remove the source of x, subject should not be able to use x any longer or something. Perhaps it's no oddity, but basic stuff for a jinchuuriki to keep his/her Biju powers, the thing is, there haven't been many to told us after the beast was extracted, so... but we mention this in Gaara's case, so for the sake of consistency I suppose.
  +
Also may you please check his abilities section? I see something wrong with it... to be more exact, why does "Ninshu" section talk about Fuuinjutsu, Chibaku Tensei and the Moon, how is that relevant to it? Also him being a Senjutsu user is yet to be mentioned anywhere--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:04, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
   
The Sage was never said to have given birth to humanity, he just taught them how to use chakra so no it doesn't make any sense.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 20:29, February 1, 2012 (UTC)
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== Senjutsu of the Six Paths 2 ==
   
== Protection ? ==
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(I know there is a similarly named discussion but this isn't entirely the same) Naruto was stated to have obtained the Senjutsu of the Six Paths (六道の仙術, Rikudō no Senjutsu), and that its just Hagoromo's Senjutsu. But from my perspective it seems more like it is its own independent thing. Like how the [[Six Paths Technique]] is its own thing. The term Six Paths isn't exclusive to Hagoromo and the name Sage of Six Paths is derived from the Six Paths Technique, which was apparently his namesake. But there are other users of the Six Paths Technique now, he was just the originally. Senjutsu of the Six Paths is probably as equally dependent from Hagoromo. Just because Hagoromo had it, doesn't mean it is uniquely his Senjutsu just because of its name. It obviously isn't something that is solely unique to him. [[User:Skarrj|Skarrj]] ([[User talk:Skarrj|talk]]) 19:25, April 26, 2014 (UTC)
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:My interpretation of Rikudou Senjutsu is Hagoromo's Senjutsu, nothing else. Just like "second six paths" means "second Hagoromo" or so.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 09:11, April 27, 2014 (UTC)
   
This page keeps being vandalised. I think it might be good to protect all the pages with a lot of text on them or the pages concerning very important people in the series. --[[User:Speysider|speysider]] ([[User talk:Speysider|talk]]) 20:21, February 1, 2012 (UTC)
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==Prophecy==
  +
According to the manga, Gamamaru was the one that told the tailed beasts about Naruto, NOT Hagoromo, am I right? [[User:WindStar7125|WindStar7125]] ([[User talk:WindStar7125|talk]]) 23:31, May 2, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125
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:No, Gamamru told Hagoromo who in turn told the beasts. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 23:40, May 2, 2014 (UTC)
   
== That popular mistranslation again ==
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Oh, OK. My bad. [[User:WindStar7125|WindStar7125]] ([[User talk:WindStar7125|talk]]) 00:23, May 3, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125
   
Could anyone provide me a link where Suki-senpai translated that famous mistranslation about two paths and all? People are still asking about it and I want to check if my own translation is correct. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 19:13, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
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==Nine Tailed Beasts Jinchūriki==
:Could you be a little more clear/detailed about the "two paths" thing O.o--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 19:20, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
::He means that thing Tobi said to Konan about two paths being one, about having Hashirama and Madara's powers. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 19:22, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
:::To Konan yes O.o?--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 19:27, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
::::Yes. [http://www.mangareader.net/93-57473-12/naruto/chapter-510.html Here], fourth panel. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 19:56, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
Sorry I totally overlooked Omni's bit about Konan. I must seem knockers =_= Any way I think you'll find what you want [http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:ShounenSuki/Archive_2010_Q3#CHAPTER_510_TRANSLATIONS here]?--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 20:01, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
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The Sage of the Six Paths is the first Jinchūriki of the nine tailed beasts
:That's it. Thank you very much. :) [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 20:14, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
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from the anime when Kurama remembered when hagoromo told them :"I don't have long any more. Shukaku, Matatabi, Isobu, Son Gokū, Kokuō, Saiken, Chōmei, Gyūki, Kurama. Even though you have been separated, you shall always be together. Until eventually that time shall come when you will become one… You each carry a name… And with a different shape than you had up to now, you will be shown a righteous path, different from the time you spent inside of me. What is true power… …Until that time…"
   
==Senjutsu==
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and told them that unlike when they were inside of him they will be token throught different paths and they must know what true strength is .
The Sage is called a "Sage" by name, but does that also mean that he knows [[Senjutsu]]? [[User:RoydonNamikaze|Roydon Namikaze]] ([[User_talk:RoydonNamikaze|Talk]]) 20:14, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
:As far as we know, no. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 20:40, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
== Reference to Hashirama's DNA ==
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I guess That is a prouf that Hagoromo was the Jinchūriki of each tailed beast
  +
So
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I suggest you add to Tailed Beast : Shukaku, Matatabi, Isobu, Son Gokū, Kokuō, Saiken, Chōmei, Gyūki, Kurama , Shinju . [[User:Asesino04|Asesino04]] ([[User talk:Asesino04|talk]]) 19:07, May 20, 2014 (UTC)Asesino04
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:Watch episode #205 again to see the reason. —[[User:Shakhmoot|<font color="blue">'''Shakhmoot'''</font>]] [[File:Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg|20px]] [[User talk:Shakhmoot|<sub>(Talk)</sub>]] 19:16, May 20, 2014 (UTC)
   
It is said in the article that the [[Rinnegan]] manifested in [[Madara]] who acquired [[Hashirama]]'s DNA. This seems to indicate that [[Senju]] or Senju related DNA is needed for awaken the Rinnegan. As it is not confirmed and just used to denote time, itis better to use [[Valley of the End]].[[User:Undominanthybrid|Undominanthybrid]] ([[User talk:Undominanthybrid|talk]]) 15:38, May 4, 2012 (UTC)
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:"...And with a '''different shape''' than you had up to now, you will be shown a righteous path, different from the time you spent inside of me..." This statement is referring to the fact they once held the cumulative shape of the Ten Tails. He used the 'Creation of All Things' technique to split the Ten Tails into the Nine Tailed Beasts. [[User:Atrix471|Atrix471]] ([[User talk:Atrix471|talk]]) 00:42, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
:Huh? [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 17:15, May 4, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
I was saying that write along the lines of "The Rinnegan had manifested in Madara after the Battle at the Valley of End" and not" after acquiring Hashirama's DNA[[User:Undominanthybrid|Undominanthybrid]] ([[User talk:Undominanthybrid|talk]]) 17:24, May 4, 2012 (UTC)
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== thrid eyes confirmed ? ==
:That's incorrect though. Madara obtained the Rinnegan near his death after he had long since acquired Hashirama's DNA. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 17:27, May 4, 2012 (UTC)
 
::Apparently it's hard to believe that the two lines that descended from the Sage can merge and recreate the dōjutsu... If there's a way to avoid saying after acquiring Senju DNA then I suppose we should.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 20:54, May 4, 2012 (UTC)
 
No replies? I am going to remove the Hashirama reference within two days.[[User:Undominanthybrid|Undominanthybrid]] ([[User talk:Undominanthybrid|talk]]) 13:47, May 15, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
Sharingan + Hashi stuff = Rinnegan is stil a pure speculation.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:10, May 15, 2012 (UTC)
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the new pics of Hagoromo is clearly showing a colored third eyes like his mom , so does that make it official that he has a third eyes ? --[[User:Tchad1|Tchad1]] ([[User talk:Tchad1|talk]]) 06:55, June 11, 2014 (UTC)
:Anyway, its removed now.[[User:Undominanthybrid|Undominanthybrid]] ([[User talk:Undominanthybrid|talk]]) 15:06, May 19, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
Wait, what? I'm going to have to undo that edit if what was done what I think was. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 19:05, May 19, 2012 (UTC)
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No. He was shown having that "3rd eye" when he was mentioned by name several chapters ago. --[[User:Questionaredude|Questionaredude]] ([[User talk:Questionaredude|talk]]) 06:58, June 11, 2014 (UTC)
:Given that we were under threat Skitts, I took out the bit about Hashirama until we have confirmation since I searched for it and outside of the [[Creation of All Things]] couldn't find anything tangible. Though I don't know what else Madara would be doing with his DNA...--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 19:13, May 19, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
Hashirama's power is to control Tailed Beasts and strong yang chakra/stamina I guess. Unless Kishi says that Rinnegan is unlocked with Hashi boob then it should not be implied.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:24, May 19, 2012 (UTC)
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Hagoromo's "third eye" is still clearly a marking. The eye isn't even shaped like Madara's or Kaguya's. [[User:Benknightprime|&#34;Demons run when a good man goes to war.&#34;]] ([[User talk:Benknightprime|talk]]) 07:51, June 11, 2014 (UTC)
:Psst. Hashirama has strong Physical energy, not Yang Chakra (which is a nature transformation). And it was fairly implied actually. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 22:46, May 19, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
Yang chakra is physical energy ... yang release is something different and where was it implied ? --[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:16, May 19, 2012 (UTC)
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How is it 'clearly' a marking? It's a different color. Sure, we've got no evidence stating it isn't a marking, but neither have we evidence claiming it is just a marking. Consider this; his horns arent' like his mother's either, but he has those. His Rinnegan aren't like his mother's, but he has those too. Seeing as those with the 'eyes of samsara' seem to naturally possess a third eye (Madara, Kaguya) is it unthinkable that maybe he has the third eye as well - just a little different? Besides, in that one scene of Kaguya remembering a younger Hagoromo, it seems kind of like said third eye is looking at the viewer. I could be wrong (my eyes are not admittedly the best) but that's just how it seems to me. ([[User:Bloodytom|Bloodytom]] ([[User talk:Bloodytom|talk]]) 02:33, June 13, 2014 (UTC))
:Yang Chakra is '''not''' Physical energy. Yang Release transforms chakra, giving it life-giving properties, which IS Yang Chakra. I'm not sure where you got it that the Release is not that chakra. Fire Chakra is Fire Release and so on. Physical energy makes up chakra, that's it. ^^ Anywho, I'm getting off topic. As to where it was implied, that's (somewhat) easy. When Kabuto was checking his theory with Edo Madara that he had survived his final confrontation with Hashirama and Madara and Kabuto both said that the entire point of that battle was to "gain access to Hashirama's power" and it was years in excess of him doing so when he awakened it. Of course, it wasn't directly stated, but Madara's acquisition of the Rinnegan was always surrounded by talk of his acquisition of Hashirama's DNA [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 00:07, May 20, 2012 (UTC)
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:1000% a marking, my sight is like totally bad as well, but even i can tell.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 10:08, June 13, 2014 (UTC)
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:How can you tell? It's two-dimensional. It doesn't matter how good your eyes are, unless you can perceive depth where there is none, that's an insane claim to make. If anything, there's more evidence to support that it's an actual third eye; the concept of 'those possessing the rinnegan' being able to access a third eye being the most obvious, but also, in the colored image of him, there is a slight shadow beneath it, hinting that a portion of his forehead protrudes slightly.[[User:Bloodytom|Bloodytom]] ([[User talk:Bloodytom|talk]]) 11:09, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
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::It's not an eye because whenever the Sennin was shown as a shadow, both his eyes were visible, but no third eye. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 11:54, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
   
We have argued about the Yin/Yang chakra (spiritual and physical energies) and Yin-Yang Release before and went nowhere ... Genjutsu = Yin Release (implied by Mizukage and makes sense, was thought before by fans) Uchiha inherited strong spiritual energy/chakra from So6p and are proficient in Genjutsu with Sharingan itself being strong tool of it.
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== So...appearance again. ==
So6p was "Yin-Yang" and Elder-Younger son/Sasuke-Naruto are Yin-Yang to each other. Yin has a bit of Yang in it just like Yang has a bit of Yin in itself, because one can't exist without other as both make up reality. Yin being the space/time/idea/mind/soul and Yang what we call "real" or interactive stuff. Everyone has both physical and spiritual energies as they make up chakra. Fire natured chakra is not always fire release, for example Naruto has wind affinity but he has to TRANSFORM the chakra into wind (that's why it's called nature transformation, it changes the chakra's properties) so in order to perform Yin Release (genjutsu) one has to use Spiritual energy/Yin chakra and transform it into effect. To topic, I still think Kabuto himself has enhanced Edo Madara with Hashirama's power and that he didn't have it before. He would not be surprised about Hashirama's face on his chest and would not question Kabuto as of what he did to his body, not the mention Madara said "I want to try something out" ... People say: "He must have had the Wood Release before as he is skilled with it" that no argument as Kakashi was able to put Obito's Sharingan in use right after the transplantation and Madara fought Hashirama for YEARS so he has copied and memorized the techniques and has Rinnegan that allows him to easily learn chakra natures, with his powers, experience/skill and knowledge it shouldn't be a problem.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 00:34, May 20, 2012 (UTC)
 
:You're misunderstanding several concepts in the series:
 
*Genjutsu being Yin Release has nothing to do with Hashirama having Yang Release or whatever. That doesn't even make sense outside of Tailed Beasts. Yin-Yang may very well be ''related'' to Physical/Spiritual energy, but they definitely aren't the same.
 
   
*And Yin having a bit of Yang in it??? What? And we're not even sure if all Genjutsu are Yin Release as of yet.
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Sooo. We get another look at younger Hagoromo, and he still looked as if he stuffed the Ten-Tails in his butt. Which brings up the question yet again, is he in that Sage Transformation form that the other Ten-Tails jinchuriki are in, or did he alway just...you know. Look like that.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:51, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
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:The latter, he always looked the way he does. You can see his brother having horns too, along with the tomoe pattern on clothes--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:33, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
   
*An Affinity towards a certain nature is just that, an affinity. The chakra itself has no properties of that Nature. Chakra itself has no inherent Nature. It has to be transformed to obtain those properties. Naruto's chakra is NOT Wind Chakra, it's juust chakra. There is no such thing as "having" Yang Release in the way you're talking about aside from the Tailed Beasts, which were created by Yin-Yang Release anyway.
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== Deceased? ==
   
*Never once was Madara surprised about his Hashi Boob. Not once. I just went back through the chapter. This is what happened: Kabuto mentions his progressing Madara passed his prime/altering his body, which caused Madara to look at his chest and say "Well, you've certainly prepared well." That's it.
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He seems to be popping up regularly now, which really makes me question whether or not we should have him labeled as deceased. my suggestion is for the time being changing it to unknown, as he seems to be living "outside" of normal time/reality but able to interact with it. [[User:Shadowfox337|Shadowfox337]] ([[User talk:Shadowfox337|talk]]) 06:53, July 3, 2014 (UTC)
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:He's dead. While his chakra ghost or whatever seems like.he can watch over stuff, he is still dead.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 08:39, July 3, 2014 (UTC)
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::I argued the same thing, was told the same thing... I wouldn't say he is dead just yet. As I stated earlier, death in Narutoverse equals the soul leaving the impure land/world and entering the pure one. Dead is someone who can be reanimated. For all we know, the "ghost" is not just chakra but also his spirit, in which case he is "alivish"--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 10:18, July 3, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Death is also never reaching the pure world and ending up in the stomach of a death god. The end result is the same; if your life ends, you are dead. You may have various forms of "living" after the fact, but you are still dead.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 10:46, July 3, 2014 (UTC)
   
*Physical and Spiritual Energies make up ALL chakra. Please read the article on Chakra. It explains everything which I'm trying to get across to you.
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== Seperate paragraph for Senjutsu of six paths ==
   
* There's a great difference between transplanting something and integrating someone's DNA into your own. Just look what happened to 59 of the 60 babies Orochimaru implanted Hashirama's DNA in to. Madara ''specifically'' noted (as did Kabuto) that the entire reason for their final fight was for Madara to gain Hashirama power.
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I would like to point out that currently Senjutsu of six paths described as Six paths Technique is mentioned/contained inside paragraph about Rinnegan. However these powers are different and only Madara, Hagoromo,Kaguya were known to posses both. I Would like to pull out this information and put in in new seperate paragraph called Senjutsu of six paths in abilities section. Please correct me, If I am wrong.
:If this is going to continue (the Yin-Yang talk), bring it to my talk page. We're cluttering this up. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 01:02, May 20, 2012 (UTC)
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--[[User:TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki|TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki]] ([[User talk:TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki|talk]]) 8:01, July 16, 2014 (UTC)
   
Already replying to ur talkpage, I don't think you have even read properly my post, but okay ... --[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 01:49, May 20, 2012 (UTC)
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== alive ==
   
Excuse me, was it ever stated in the manga/databook that the SO6P is a ninja?--{{unsigned|182.2.63.128}}
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Before Madara grew breasts and vagina, people ridiculed my notion of Kaguya being alive and wanted her listed as deceased at all costs. Now we have Hagoromo in material world talking. Can anyone tell me how exactly is he dead?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:43, July 24, 2014 (UTC)
:What do you mean? He created ninjutsu→ ninja techniques. That alone connotes that the man was a shinobi even if not in the sense that it's used for now.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 11:37, June 18, 2012 (UTC)
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:He's more of a ghost than a living being. He is incarnacted chakra, nothing more. Edo Tensi victims are more alive than him. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|]]</sup> 13:45, July 24, 2014 (UTC)
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::Before Madara had a Black Zex Change Operation she was unknown, with death being more likely because *@($ing seriously. Hagoromo on the other hand, is still dead. Ghost, chakra projection, Lich Lord of the Scouge, whatever he may be, doesn't change the fact that he is still very dead.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:54, July 24, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Now sure how floating around and talking falls into the category of being dead though. We list Orochimaru as alive, he doesn't differ from Hagoromo.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:14, July 24, 2014 (UTC)
   
==Abilities==
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Don't get my wrong, but intent isn't to cause trouble. I just ask, because the moment Sasuke slapped Kabuto's flesh and a piece of Oro's chakra together, we didn't hesitate to list Oro alive despite being incarnated chakra or whatever. Now Hagoromo is incarnated chakra but isn't given the same treatment for one reason or another..--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:39, July 24, 2014 (UTC)
How could the Sage seal the Jubi on the moon since he is its jinchuruki, he need to have a stronger force of life (not to sepculate, but a equal force of Uzumaki clan) or is because of his imense power, my question have 2 bases:
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:The difference is that Orochimaru was never dead. Just under a genjutsu. [[User:Iloveinoxxx|Iloveinoxxx]] ([[User talk:Iloveinoxxx|talk]]) 16:15, July 24, 2014 (UTC)
* After divide the power of Jubi in nine, he selaed himself along the biju while transformed, into the moon (what make him and Jubi have a pefect synchronism with each other).
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::Really? So he somehow made his way from the genjutsu and became one with the piece of chakra or something? In my opinion he wasn't ever trapped with Totsuka Blade, but that's another topic. The thing is, if you say he was trapped, then the Orochimaru walking around can't be the same as Itachi defeated.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:19, July 24, 2014 (UTC)
* He release Jubi from his body (which needs a stronger force of life like I already mentioned), divided its power in nine and sealed its body on moon (the most real evidence).
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:::But they are because Orochimaru split his consciousness. He is a living, breathing being made of flesh. He was literally reincarnated. Hagoromo is not, he is a chakra entity. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 09:03, July 25, 2014 (UTC)
So, what of those two options is the correct. [[User:MaskedManMadara|MaskedManMadara]] ([[User talk:MaskedManMadara|talk]]) 16:03, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
Most probably, the 2nd one.— {{User:UltimateSupreme/SigCode|16:21 UTC|Saturday|3 November 2012}}
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==Lemme get this straight...==
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<big>This dicussion is closed.</big>
   
:Or, considering we now know how broken Senju is, it is not beyond the realm of reason the Sage was even more broken, and just did things the way he wanted, what with him creating ninjutsu and all that.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 18:00, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
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So Hagoromo and Hamura fought the Ten-Tails (Kaguya) and then sealed it within Hagoromo. Then as Hagoromo was nearing his death, he separated the chakra of the Ten-Tails into the nine tailed beasts. Then he and his brother used the Yin-Yang (Sun and Moon) seal to turned the husk of the Ten-Tails (Demonic Statue of the Outer Path) into the core of the Chibaku Tensei to create the moon, correct? Because what is confusing me is when Black Zetsu said Kaguya's sons turned the Ten-Tails into the core of the Chibaku Tensei, but wasn't the Ten-Tails already its husk before being sealed into the moon? [[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User:WindStar7125]] [[User talk:WindStar7125|<sup>(Talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|<sub>(Contributions)</sub>]] 04:02, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
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:I'd assume the translation was a little bit off; I'm all but certain Hagoromo separated the Ten-Tails into the nine tailed beasts before sealing the statue in the Moon/Chibaku Tensei for safe keeping. Although, I was under the impression that the Yin and Yang palm seals made the sealing technique which sealed the Ten-Tails into Hagoromo, but I could be wrong. --[[User:Atrix471|Atrix471]] ([[User talk:Atrix471|talk]]) 04:27, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
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::eh, wrong. He was alone when he created the TB and sealed the husk. His brother only helped with the first sealing years before. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 13:11, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
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:::So the Ten-Tails was sealed into Hagoromo, then turned into the core of the Chibaku Tensei with the Yin-Yang seal? Huh? How about the creation of the tailed beasts and the sealing of the husk into the moon? [[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User:WindStar7125]] [[User talk:WindStar7125|<sup>(Talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|<sub>(Contributions)</sub>]] 13:18, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
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You are correct WindStar. Chapter 681 says the Sun-Moon YYR was what turned her into Chibaku Tensei. The term "Gedo Mazo" (Demonic Statue) is a nickname that Madara made up, nothing more. The "statue" has always been the Ten-Tails, not a separate thing. It's just some people around here like to play stupid and purposely confuse others by not merging the articles.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:45, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
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:And I think that's fine as it is. I don't see any difference between the statue and the Tailed Beasts. Without any of them, the Ten Tails can't be revived. But we don't go as far to merge all Tailed Beasts into one article since they were originally one, right? Or am I confusing something here?[[User:Iloveinoxxx|Iloveinoxxx]] ([[User talk:Iloveinoxxx|talk]]) 14:24, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
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::Except the "statue" = Ten-Tails. And the Tailed Beasts were never originally one, the chakra they have was originally one. The Tailed Beasts are as much the Ten-Tails as all living entities to whom Hagoromo spread his chakra are.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:38, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Na, statue = husk of the TT. Windstar, the TT was sealed in Hagoromo, later split into body and chakra, the body was sealed by Hagoromo in the Chibaku Tensei, the chakra was divided and made into the TB via COAT. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 15:35, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Same thing, since the "husk" is the degraded body. It's all just semantics anyway, the important thing is that "Gedo Mazo" is just a weakened form of the Ten-Tails/Kaguya. Even Black Zetsu called Gedo Mazo as the Ten-Tails, that's why this topic exists in the first place.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:54, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::It's not the same thing, since half of it (the chakra) is missing. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 17:35, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::So when Naruto is at half his chakra, he is no longer Naruto? Its form may change, but it isn't a separate entity.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:36, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::::...it is no separate entity, but its body was separated from its mind, so...? • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 17:45, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
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The statue is just the Ten Tails with no chakra. That's all there is to it.--[[User:Officialkamuiblade|Officialkamuiblade]] ([[User talk:Officialkamuiblade|talk]]) 18:12, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
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:@Seel, when? The only thing separated was its chakra, the mind was there still. Had there been no mind, Black Zetsu wouldn't exist, because mind-less "statues" don't think, right? ;)--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:17, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
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::If there was no mind, then why didn't the statue do anything after being re-summoned? • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 18:25, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
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:::From the moon? No idea exactly, but it was shown in shackles. Also Kaguya doesn't seem to be very talkative, but she definitely spoke to Madara after Guy blew out his guts.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:31, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
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What we were told earlier: Hagoromo defeated the Ten-Tails, sealed it within himself, and near his death, separated the Ten-Tails' chakra into the nine tailed beasts, and used Chibaku Tensei to seal the husk of the TT. What we were told recently: Hagoromo ''and'' Hamura defeated the TT, sealed it within Hagoromo, and according to BZ, used the brothers used Yin-Yang seal to turn the TT into the core of the Chibaku Tensei, and created the moon. So where was Hamura when Hagoromo created the nine tailed beasts? And the husk was still inside Hagoromo for awhile, so Hamura and Hagoromo turned that into the CT core? @Elve, @Tau, mighty thanks for your contributions, but someone please connect these two seemingly contradicting stories for me. [[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User:WindStar7125]] [[User talk:WindStar7125|<sup>(Talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|<sub>(Contributions)</sub>]] 20:54, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
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:No contradictions, Hamura was simply omitted in original version.
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* Hagoromo and Hamura fight and defeat the Ten-Tails with Hagoromo becoming the jinchuuriki
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* Hagoromo nearing his death splits the Ten-Tails' chakra and creates the Tailed Beasts using Creation of All Things technique. Then he and Hamura proceed to seal what remained of the Ten-Tails using the YYR sun-moon combo seal--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:01, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
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K. So BZ ''said'' that the TT was turned into the CT core and the moon was made. That his mother was sealed by her own sons. And the Ten-Tails' husk was sealed in the moon. By that logic, the husk and the TT are the same thing. And the TT husk was basically Kaguya and the Shinju fused, but without enough chakra. [[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User:WindStar7125]] [[User talk:WindStar7125|<sup>(Talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|<sub>(Contributions)</sub>]] 21:06, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
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:They are. "Gedo Mazo" is nothing but the Ten-Tails on chakra diet. The term "Gedo Mazo" didn't exist until thousands years later when Madara pulled it out of his ass.
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EDIT: "Gedo Mazo" is as much a thing as Naruto is number-one unpredictable ninja, it's just a nickname, especially why it is totally idiotic to have that as a separate article, like totally idiotic--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:10, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
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::Not to argue about whether the articles should be merged, but Madara does seem to consider Ten-Tails and its husk as the same entity. In chapter 610, he referred to the Ten-Tails as the Mazo, despite it being in its revived form (sort of like how Orochimaru refers to Jugo's senninka as cursed seal power). Anyway, as for the Yin-Yang seal, Yin Kurama said that Hagoromo was immobilised for months after creating and scattering the tailed beasts, so there was theoretically time for him to meet with Hamura and turn the Ten-Tails' husk into the core. The alternative is that the Yin-Yang Seal turned it into the core before it was sealed in Hagoromo and its chakra was split, which isn't really implied by anything else.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 21:46, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Not sure how some people even find it possible to argue with manga facts, of course they are the same entity. That one was cleared up, topic done. Although nothing will be done with that, because apparently some admins and staff find it less confusing for people when they are confused with incorrect information, awesome. Because lies are more person-friendly than the truth--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:45, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
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:::: The articles aren't being merged people. Such is just a figment of Elveonora's imagination. Also, Black Zetsu called the statue Gedo Mazo as well. It wasn't named by Madara anymore than Black Zetsu was Madara's will. That being said, I don't think this topic is about what the Gedo Mazo is, so kindly can it, Elve. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg|20px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 23:47, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
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So can we agree that changes need to be made in ''both'' Hagoromo and Hamura's articles? Because all I know is that the brothers turned the Ten-Tails into the CT core, but the husk was sealed in the moon as well (which could mean the husk was turned into the core, which means its article needs some changes also). [[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User:WindStar7125]] [[User talk:WindStar7125|<sup>(Talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|<sub>(Contributions)</sub>]] 00:52, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
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@Foxie, re-read the chapter where Madara explains to Obito that he nicknamed it "Gedo Mazo" BZ uses the term simply because he got that from Madara. And the topic is about it, the OP was confused that BZ said Hagoromo and Hamura had sealed the Ten-Tails into the moon, instead of having said they did Gedo Mazo, that's because Gedo Mazo = Ten-Tails, with Gedo Mazo being nothing but a nickname. Having a form of the Ten-Tails as a separately article with its name being simply a nickname is absolutely retarded, excuse my honesty.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:17, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:So in conclusion because yes I am going to end this conversation right now before Ten Tailed Fox comes in and this becomes a larger cluster$*#( then it already is.
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::WindStar7125 as I'm sure has already been explained several times in fact, the order of things was the Hagoromo and Hamura beat the Ten-Tails and sealed it into Hagoromo and then when he was about to die, Hagaromo created the tailed beast and put the statue into the moon. Yes we are all aware of what the statue is and that can be found in the articles in question.
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:There, WindStar7125's question has been addressed. Thank you, have a good day. I will block anyone for a day or more if you respond after my message, whichever one tickles my fancy at the time. And yes that does mean confirmation that this discussion is closed. Discussion done have a pleasant day.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 12:36, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
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<big>This dicussion is closed.</big>
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== Staff ==
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Did he actually ever use one? Because it's been just Truth Seeking Ball.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:23, August 2, 2014 (UTC)
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Bump--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:25, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
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:Yes. He had one before becoming a jinchuriki. Look at the picture of him and his brother against the Ten-Tails.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 11:37, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
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::He had Truth Seeking Balls before he became a jinchuuriki as well, that's why the staff in fact might have been them.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:56, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
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:::He did? • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 11:58, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Yes, http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140611061247/naruto/images/4/44/Young_Hagoromo.png --[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:15, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::And he wasn't a Jinchuriki on that picture because...? • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 12:25, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::Because that was Kaguya's memory?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:33, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::::And that stops her from remembering what the dude she's trapped in looks like because...?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 12:37, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::::Why would she recall him young though? She was trapped in him until he was an old dude.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:38, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::::::So she didn't see what he looked like as a young man? • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 14:25, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
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My point is that her memory of him young makes sense only if it was him when he was about to seal her, otherwise she would have recalled him as an old man.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:16, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
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:I don't get it. She has memories of him all the way up to her sealing in the moon, so why wouldn't she be able to remember him as a young man? • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 15:49, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
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:The image you posted shows Hagoromo holding his Yang seal hand out, so that was probably before she was sealed, because perspective. It would be logical for her to remember her children in their youth, as that was when she could get the best look at them, and Hagoromo's seal could have prevented her from seeing the outside world at all. --[[User:Atrix471|Atrix471]] ([[User talk:Atrix471|talk]]) 16:09, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
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@Seel, because you usually remember people the way you have last seen them. That means her remembering him young is contextual and likely the said memory was moments before he sealed her into himself.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:27, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
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:Why into himself, though? If this is the last memory she has of him (what I doubt), then it would be the one directly before her sealing in the moon. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 16:53, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
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::Actually no, because he split the Ten-Tails before sealing it. I doubt she remembered anything after having all her chakra removed. --[[User:Atrix471|Atrix471]] ([[User talk:Atrix471|talk]]) 16:57, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
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:::You don't need chakra to have a working memory. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 17:02, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
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::::@Seel, he sealed her into the moon as an old man I believe? We were told he split the chakra and made the moon on his deathbed, so that wasn't a memory from the second sealing.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:10, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::You don't have to die as an old man, though. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 17:11, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::So he aged post-death as a phantom? ...--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 17:16, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
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Lmao, I totally forgot about that. Anyway, you know how this ends: We won't add that he had the TSB before becoming Jinchuriki. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 18:18, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
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:Well, it's true though. And I'm not talking about adding that, but removal of the monk staff from his infobox, because a tool made of chakra isn't an actual tool, I think--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:27, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
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There's no viable reason to assume he had it before being a jinchūriki, since it's listed as a Tailed Beast Skill. All Shinju jinchūriki had it, and Naruto had it upon receiving a portion of all nine Bijū. I've only now remembered this, but I believe that answers this discussion. --[[User:Atrix471|Atrix471]] ([[User talk:Atrix471|talk]]) 18:34, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
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:Her sons obviously inherited her powers.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:39, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
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:Episode #329 black & gold one([[User:Kuroiraikou|Kuroiraikou]] ([[User talk:Kuroiraikou|talk]]) 19:07, August 3, 2014 (UTC))
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::To be fair, the anime frequently makes colouring errors. --[[User:Atrix471|Atrix471]] ([[User talk:Atrix471|talk]]) 19:08, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
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::: 'Tis true. I own the volume where that chapter appears and, in the manga, the staff is totally black. The anime got it wrong. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Rinnegan Sasuke.svg|20px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 19:26, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
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== Chibaku Tensei and Hagoromo's death ==
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According to the latest chapter, the "seal" did turn the Ten-Tails into the gravity core of the Chibaku Tensei; as such, the events seem to have unfolded a bit differently from how Tobi stated. Basically, the Ten-Tails' body was sealed inside the moon not when Hagoromo died, but when he and Hamura defeated the Ten-Tails. Seeing that the tailed beasts got out of Kaguya's body by themselves, it isn't so far-fetched to say that Hagoromo ripped off the chakra of the Jūbi while the monster was being sealed. Any thoughts?--[[File:Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg|15px]] [[User:JOA20|'''JOA''']][[User talk:JOA20|''20'']] 16:41, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:I'm super confused by this. Hagoromo didn't look like dying, which he should, considering he unsealed the Ten-Tails from himself. Also he was young in the flashback, even though he died as an old man. I smell a retcon--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:46, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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::Yeah, pretty much. Unless he could survive a little after having the Ten-Tails' chakra divided into the nine beasts out of his body.--[[File:Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg|15px]] [[User:JOA20|'''JOA''']][[User talk:JOA20|''20'']] 16:54, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:::I think Kishi screwed up a little. We were told "gedo mazo" was what kept Hagoromo alive after he separated the chakra and made the Tailed Beasts. We were told that he then sealed the Ten-Tails' body on his deathbed. The chronology seems very messy. In the latest chapter he seemingly didn't seal the "gedo mazo" but healthy Ten-Tails and it wasn't on a deathbed literary nor figuratively--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:57, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Well, Hagoromo told Naruto that he and his brother sealed the TT inside of him. So, I think that Hamura and Hagoromo were sealing the TT, not creating the Chibaku Tensei. We only saw them touching something together like Sasuke and Naruto. That could be the moment were they sealed the TT.--[[User:MERCURIOUS|MERCURIOUS]] ([[User talk:MERCURIOUS|talk]]) 17:07, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Only that Black Zetsu said that Kaguya/TT was turned in the Chibaku Tensei core by Hagoromo and Hamura, just like Naruto and Sasuke did.--[[File:Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg|15px]] [[User:JOA20|'''JOA''']][[User talk:JOA20|''20'']] 17:13, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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Let's not forget that Kishi has, time and time again, made it apparent that ''chakra'' and ''body'' are different and can be separated. -- '''[[User:Koto Senju|Koto]]'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 17:18, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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: I forgot that. The only thing I can think of is that Hagoromo and Hamura turned the Rabbit into the core, while the TT is sealed inside of Hagoromo. But this time both the Gedou Mazou and the Rabbit were turned into the core.--[[User:MERCURIOUS|MERCURIOUS]] ([[User talk:MERCURIOUS|talk]]) 17:27, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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::Well…the Ten-Tails' "chakra" is the tailed beasts, the "body" is the Gedō Mazō. The little problem here is that, if the Mazō was sealed in the moon by Hagoromo and Hamura when they were young-looking, and the Ten-Tails' jinchūriki can survive the tailed beasts' extraction only because of the Mazō's life force, how could Hagoromo live even after creating the nine tailed beasts without the Mazō?--[[File:Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg|15px]] [[User:JOA20|'''JOA''']][[User talk:JOA20|''20'']] 17:28, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:::We'll get that answer when Madara wakes up next chapter. -- '''[[User:Koto Senju|Koto]]'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 17:31, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:::: Well, in this chapter nine of the ten tails turned into the known Tailed Beasts, while the tenth tail became the Rabbit. And there was the body, the Gedou Mazou. If Kaguya is that Rabbit and not the Gedou Mazou, then Hagoromo and Hamura may have turned it alone into the core without the Gedou Mazou and the 9TB (he hasn't created them yet). And that Rabbit/Kaguya is what created BZ later.--[[User:MERCURIOUS|MERCURIOUS]] ([[User talk:MERCURIOUS|talk]]) 17:38, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::The rabbit was the remainder of Kaguya's chakra inside the Mazo--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:12, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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@Seel, any explanations?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 09:48, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
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:'bout what? • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 10:16, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
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::The chronology of Hagoromo sealing TT into himself and then into the moon doesn't work--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 10:30, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Yeah, it probably doesn't. I can't explain it, sorry^^ • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 10:39, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
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== Hagoromo's gifts ==
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After the latest chapter we should agree Hagoromo only gave Naruto and Sasuke the seals and everything else was Kabuto's and Obito's doings. I.e. Sasuke unlocked Rinnegan because Kabuto mixed Ashura's DNA and chakra from Hashirama with Sasuke's own Indra's DNA and chakra, while Naruto unlocked Six paths Sage mode because Obito sealed the rest of the Biju's chakra inside him.[[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]]) 18:22, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:…sorry, where was it stated that Hagoromo only gave Naruto and Sasuke the seals? He gave them half of his chakra for each as well.--[[File:Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg|15px]] [[User:JOA20|'''JOA''']][[User talk:JOA20|''20'']] 19:12, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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::That was actually never stated. The only thing we know of he gave them are the seals and instructions--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:14, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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::: He told the Hokage that he gave his Chakra.--[[User:MERCURIOUS|MERCURIOUS]] ([[User talk:MERCURIOUS|talk]]) 19:24, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:::: Yet somehow this article states he gave them Rikudo Senjutsu and Rinnegan. And of course he gave them his chakra - neither sealing nor Naruto's magic healing would work without it. [[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]]) 19:31, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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::::The seals may be the chakra he gave--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:29, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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::::: Yes. Seals are useless without chakra that activates and runs them. [[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]]) 19:31, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::Still, while we ''are'' certain that the seals were given by Hagoromo, we ''aren't'' about who gave them Rikudō Senjutsu and Rinnegan. Hagoromo stated that in order to awaken the Rinnegan, one must combine Indra and Asura's chakra into their body, or possess Hagoromo's chakra, either way works. Now, we know Hagoromo gave Naruto and Sasuke half of his chakra for each (otherwise he wouldn't have bothered to ask the Hokage to help him since he had no more chakra); we ''don't'' know if Kabuto did effectively implant Hashirama's cells into Sasuke, he just stated that his studies done with the First's DNA helped the healing (Edit: now I remembered that Hashirama transferred all his remaining chakra to Sasuke). Sasuke gained Hagoromo's chakra, that's for sure; so Sasuke gained the Rinnegan because of Hagoromo. About Naruto's Rikudō Senjutsu, we can see that Hagoromo "summoned" the other tailed beasts besides the ones Obito sealed into Naruto (Yin-Kurama, Shukaku and Gyūki), so the Sage did help Naruto awaken the Rikudō Senjutsu.--[[File:Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg|15px]] [[User:JOA20|'''JOA''']][[User talk:JOA20|''20'']] 19:37, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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In chapter 681, Sasuke refers to both his Rinnegan's space-time technique and Naruto's foothold (Truth-Seeking Ball) as a result of receiving the Six Paths' power. So, at least as far as Sasuke is concerned, they didn't just awaken those powers on their own.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 19:52, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:Hagoromo's chakra amplified the powers Naruto and Sasuke already had. Sasuke had mastery over dojutsu, and thus gained the Rinnegan. Naruto had experience as a jinchuuriki and mastery over senjutsu, and thus gained the abilities of all nine tailed beasts and the Senjutsu of the Six Paths, respectively. Hagoromo's chakra can also damage a TT jinchuuriki/the TT itself (Kaguya), as seen with Sasuke and Kakashi. [[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User:WindStar7125]] [[User talk:WindStar7125|<sup>(Talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|<sub>(Contribs)</sub>]] 20:01, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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Sasuke has had multiple exposures to Asura's chakra. Nine tails cloak, Hashirama chakra transfer, Kabuto giving Hashi's cells. My guess is the last part sealed the deal, and Sasuke awakened it the same way Madara did: by having both Indra's and Asura's chakra, he summoned So6P's chakra (and the man himself). The ten-tails has the same chakra as the Sage. The nine beasts are the TT's chakra. So combining the chakra of all nine also brings forth his chakra (and the man himself). In this way, Naruto and Sasuke's new powers are from the Sage, but not directly. The only ones directly given to them by the sage are the Yin and Yang seals. [[User:MangekyoSasuke|MangekyoSasuke]] ([[User talk:MangekyoSasuke|talk]]) 20:51, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:Sasuke gained the light-purple, six tomoe Rinnegan because of Hagoromo. Yes, Indra and Asura's chakras are required, but they bring forth Hagomoro's chakra. Sasuke gained the Rinnegan when Hagoromo gave the former his chakra. As for Sasuke getting Asura's chakra, the chakras of Indra and Asura are stated to move on. If Sasuke got Asura's chakra, he didn't get it from Hashirama. He could have gotten it from Naruto... but... we don't know. All we know is that the Sharingan and Hagoromo's chakra are required to bring forth the Rinnegan, at least ''his'' Rinnegan and not Kaguya's. [[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User:WindStar7125]] [[User talk:WindStar7125|<sup>(Talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|<sub>(Contribs)</sub>]] 20:56, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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::Madara and Hashirama don't all of a sudden stop having Indra and Asura's Chakra. It's a part of them. If chakra couldn't be in more than one person at once, it would break literally everything that happened in this war. Hashirama is still a transmigrant. [[User:MangekyoSasuke|MangekyoSasuke]] ([[User talk:MangekyoSasuke|talk]]) 21:17, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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:::He isn't, Hagoromo called him Ashura's predecessor--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:25, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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::: Hagoromo can't be Ashura's predecessor though. Ashura lived countless generations before him. Are we sure that wasn't just mistranslation?--[[User:Reliops|Reliops]] ([[User talk:Reliops|talk]]) 23:37, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
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I think he meant successor. And plus, the chakra moves on, it doesn't stay in their bodies, because then they wouldn't be transmigrants. They would all be Asuras inhibitor which they're not. So Sasuke gaining the Rinnegan from Hashirama is ridiculous because:
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1.You need DNA, not chakra. And we don't know if Kabuto put his cells into him. He just said it helped with healing.
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And Sasuke called the rinnegan part of gaining the six paths power. As for naruto, He had the ingredients, but didn't know how to mix them, so to say. So Hagoromo "helped" both of them [[User:Riptide240|Riptide240]] ([[User talk:Riptide240|talk]]) 02:12, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
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:Where have you been? Hagoromo himself stated that mixing Indra's and Asura's chakras bring forth his, and can grant a Sharingan user the Rinnegan. [[User:WindStar7125|<font color="blue">'''''WindStar7125'''''</font>]] [[File:WindStar7125 Task.svg|20px|link=User:WindStar7125]] [[User talk:WindStar7125|<sup>(Talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|<sub>(Contribs)</sub>]] 02:14, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
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::I know that, what I meant is that its done by gaining some of their DNA. If it was just a chakra transfer Madara could've just absorbed some of Hashiramas chakra in their fight. Not biting a piece of his damn arm off like a savage [[User:Riptide240|Riptide240]] ([[User talk:Riptide240|talk]]) 02:17, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
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:::And plus, that method takes a very long time, as shown with Madara. Also, on the page it mentions that the Six Paths technique is Hagoromos technique. Since Madara more or less awakened Hagoromos rinnegan and techniques, would it make to say that the six paths technique was Hagoromos unique rinnegan thing. Because Sasuke has his unique teleportation and if he awakened the rinnegan the same way as Madara, I think he would've gotten the same thing as them [[User:Riptide240|Riptide240]] ([[User talk:Riptide240|talk]]) 02:33, August 29, 2014 (UTC) [[User:Riptide240|Riptide240]] ([[User talk:Riptide240|talk]]) 02:30, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Not neccesarily, Madara's unique technique could also be Limbo, which doesn't fit any of the Six Paths. That's assuming each person's Rinnegan even has a unique power in the first place. It's unfortunate that the Rinnegan's abilities have never really been explained, so we've just seen it do various things and added them to the page as we go.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 03:07, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
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Now, Hagoromo no doubt amplified Naruto's and Sasuke's abilities. And he may be, or may be not the last necessary ingredient for said abilities. But as of now, the article flat out states HE gave rinnegan and rikudo's senjutsu to Sasuke and Naruto, as if there weren't their own efforts, Kabuto and Obito. Does anyone really thinks he would be able to do this without previous job done by the others? He wouldn't be summoned to them in the first place! [[User:Faust-RSI|Faust-RSI]] ([[User talk:Faust-RSI|talk]]) 05:19, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
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@Reliopns, no, he says that in the raw too. Hagoromo calls Hashirama "Ashura's predecessor" because Ashura's successor is now Naruto--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 09:50, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
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== Six Paths Sage Technique Section ==
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I had a question...why is Six Paths Technique written in this section...is it related or sth... --[[User:DARK ZER06|DARK ZER06]] ([[User talk:DARK ZER06|talk]]) 16:06, September 1, 2014 (UTC)
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uh...any1 care 2 answer... --[[User:DARK ZER06|DARK ZER06]] ([[User talk:DARK ZER06|talk]]) 15:47, September 2, 2014 (UTC)
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:No idea why that is. Someone most likely assumed that Six Paths Sage Technique is related to Six Paths Technique of Rinnegan--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:51, September 2, 2014 (UTC)
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== How he revived the previous Kage ==
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From the previous 2 chapters it reveals that Hagoromo revived all of the previous Kage who died, but judging from there appearance in the latest chapter they were not revived by the Edo Tensei as their eyes don't have the altered sclera, so he revived them with something completely different. So should we make a note of this fact in his abilities?[[User:SageM|SageM]] ([[User talk:SageM|talk]]) 20:53, September 6, 2014 (UTC)SageM
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:I don't think he revived the previous Kage, but "merely" called their spirits... like performing the Edo Tensei but without giving them a body. Said so, I agree that this should be stated in his ability, even if I don't think he could do that in life (probably he could do that now because he is in a sort of limbo between the Pure Land and the world of the living) [[User:Gilgamesh85|Gilgamesh85]] ([[User talk:Gilgamesh85|talk]]) 21:22, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
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== extracting bijus ==
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why is it written that hagoromo extracted the bijus out of the TT after kaguya's fight with team 7...all he did was summoning them back from kaguya's dimension... --[[User:DARK ZER06|DARK ZER06]] ([[User talk:DARK ZER06|talk]]) 13:09, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
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:Some people take it that it was Hagoromo who did all the fancy stuff--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:18, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
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::Fixed.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Eye of Rikudō.svg|30px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:18, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
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== Summoning: Pure World Reincarnation? ==
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This was shortly discussed before, but the way he brought back the previous Kage without human sacrifices needs to be mentioned and I think it's worth an own article. Opinions? [[User:Norleon|Norleon]] ([[User talk:Norleon|talk]]) 14:28, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
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:Yes mention, but I don't know if it needs it's own article - what would we call it anyway? --[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:36, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
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::Well, ''Summoning: Pure World Reincarnation'' could be an option I think as it's like Edo Tensei, just not as cruel. I mean, if we have fancy article names like [[Spear of Heaven Nine-Tails Beam]]...Of course, it would be listed as unnamed in the infobox. [[User:Norleon|Norleon]] ([[User talk:Norleon|talk]]) 14:43, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
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:::I don't think it warrants its own article, at best a mention in Hagoromo's abilities section. If it gets a page, Norleon's name sounds good.--[[File:Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg|15px]] [[User:JOA20|'''JOA''']][[User talk:JOA20|''20'']] 14:50, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
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::::The name is senseless, simply because ''Edo Tensei'' refers to the summoning of the souls into the real world. Calling it ''Jodo Tensei'' would basically mean "killing them", lol. What Hagoromo did was Edo Tensei without the bodies. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 14:56, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Well, was just a try after all. [[User:Norleon|Norleon]] ([[User talk:Norleon|talk]]) 14:57, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::Right, {{translation|'''Pure World Reincarnation'''|浄土転生|Jōdo Tensei}} actually makes no sense.--[[File:Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg|15px]] [[User:JOA20|'''JOA''']][[User talk:JOA20|''20'']] 15:43, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
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Alright, again, it was just a suggestion. We could call it "Ghost Summoning" as well, as lame as that sounds. [[User:Norleon|Norleon]] ([[User talk:Norleon|talk]]) 13:22, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
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:Pure World Reincarnation would be the most amusing. But Pure World Summoning or something would work too.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Eye of Rikudō.svg|30px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:24, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
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::So can I create it? [[User:Norleon|Norleon]] ([[User talk:Norleon|talk]]) 13:25, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
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I don't really see why not just make it correctly and don't leave to much work for others to clean up after. [[User:Munchvtec|Munchvtec]] ([[User talk:Munchvtec|talk]]) 13:27, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
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: While we're at it, we need to list Hagoromo and all generations of five Kage as users of the Summoning Technique, since they all used it together to bring Naruto and crew back from Kaguya's worlds. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Rinnegan Sasuke.svg|20px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 14:33, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
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::Why they weren't added a week ago is odd.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Eye of Rikudō.svg|30px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:38, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
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:::I was wondering if it counted so I never bothered to push the issue of adding them. Still not too keen on the article though.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:39, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
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::::L Agreed. I'll rectify this. ~ '''''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|Ten Tailed Fox]]''''' [[File:Rinnegan Sasuke.svg|20px|link=User talk:Ten Tailed Fox]] 14:41, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::I thought the Summoning was done in a similar way as it was done with Edo Tensei (Pakura and Gari for example weren't listed there too). But oh well, why not...
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:::::To start, I will try to create the article (yes Munchvtec, as correctly as I can) and we can then further discuss if it's necessary or not. [[User:Norleon|Norleon]] ([[User talk:Norleon|talk]]) 15:17, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
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'''The jutsu Edo Tensei is called Edo Tensei because it ''reincarnates'' someone into the ''unpure world'', the real world. Calling what Hagoromo did ''Jodo Tensei'' does not make any sense, since he did not ''reincarnate'' someone into the ''pure world''.''' • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 15:27, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
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:This. Pure World Reincarnation would equal killing someone in the impure land, thus "summoning" him or her to the afterlife xD--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:32, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
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::Yes, and like I said, I won't use that name. It was just '''a proposal'''. [[User:Norleon|Norleon]] ([[User talk:Norleon|talk]]) 15:33, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
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:::I know, but somehow, Ultimate3 didn't read what I wrote earlier and I wanted to make clear how absolutely retarded that name would be, hence the boldness. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 15:34, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
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::::I did read it. I said Pure World Reincarnation would be the most ''amusing'', not a good choice.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Eye of Rikudō.svg|30px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 15:47, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::You said it would work, but it doesn't. Just wanted to make that clear. Or do I need manga evidence? :O • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 15:51, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::So i did. I ''meant'' "Pure World Reincarnation would be most amusing, but Pure World Summoning or something would work."--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Eye of Rikudō.svg|30px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 15:55, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
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Calm down. The name won't be used. I apology for bringing it up. [[User:Norleon|Norleon]] ([[User talk:Norleon|talk]]) 15:56, September 8, 2014 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 15:56, September 8, 2014

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Status Edit

I believe I once brought a forum topic about this. In my opinion, we should reconsider what means to be dead within Narutoverse and we shouldn't use real-world logic and rules to determine life/death in fiction. In my opinion:

  • a dead person/creature = has gone to the pure land
  • still in the impure land = not dead

Lets take Orochimaru as an example. We concluded him as deceased, but that was before the whole Curse Mark reveal. Technically, he never died, as his soul didn't go to the pure land to our knowledge. He only ceased to exist for a while in physical form, but his soul and consciousness remained.

So I ask, is Hagoromo really "dead" ? He is now some interdimensional timeless entity... I would even dare to say a god.--Elveonora (talk) 11:11, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Well, this is all logical and nice, but the only problem that characters in the manga themselves deny this logic (Hagoromo included) by constantly referring to themselves as "dead" if their body is gone. Even Oro was referred more than once as "killed". So how about that?Faust-RSI (talk) 11:21, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Orochimaru and Hagoromo are "special cases" that's why I'm discussing it in regards to them. Even in Narutoverse, the souls in the pure land appear to have no consciousness, since brain is required for that. I suspect that once the consciousness is gone, there's nothing to hold the soul in the impure land. But these two continue to have consciousness even without a form and as such their souls haven't gone to the pure land, meaning they are alive.

Unless you consider someone crawling out of a neck as dead.--Elveonora (talk) 11:44, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

I don't consider them dead, I don't even consider Edo Tensei's dead, calling them "zombies" is ridiculous on Kishi's side, as they are nothing like zombies. My problem is with the direct statements in the manga that say these particular characters are dead, regardless of how illogical it is. Are we going to just ignore them?Faust-RSI (talk) 11:49, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

That's because commonly demise of the brain in Narutoverse also equals death. It's 99% true, save for these two. They continue to: have thoughts, senses, awareness and be capable of actions, that's quite alive in my book.--Elveonora (talk) 11:57, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
Dead. As dead as dead can get. If his spirit or chakra wants to float around ignoring space and time, fantastic. But he's still dead. The same can't even be used with Orochimaru actually, because Orochimaru was sealed, not killed. Permenant it may have been, Itachi didn't actually kill him, just left him in a state where he might as well been. But yeah, the Sage is dead. Very dead.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:32, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
I get what you're saying, but I think if a character specifically refers to themselves as dead, then that's clearly the author saying they're dead. The thing that gets weird is that he also referred to himself as living chakra. I think if we're going to be accurate with these cases we need can't really call them "Alive" or "Dead", as neither accurately describes their status.--Soul reaper (talk) 12:39, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
Except the status field isn't for some weird metaphysical thing. Because that would be like saying because Naruto is Asura reincarnated, that Asura is not dead because he is also Naruto. Like I said, the Sage's spirit may have lived on as living chakra, but the man is still dead.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 13:00, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
Reincarnation is fairly different. The Sage himself described his state as living chakra. A description also given to the tailed beasts. I think Elveonora makes a good point when he says we shouldn't apply real world logic to such matters.--Soul reaper (talk) 13:36, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not even implying real world logic. Because otherwise I wouldn't even entertain this discussion. I'm saying, as he even stated, that his life ended. Life ending equals dead. If he lived on as a phantom of living chakra, great job. But he's still dead.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 13:39, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

@Ultimate, I didn't refer to Itachi's sealing of Orochimaru (which didn't happen anyway) but Sasuke's murder of Orochimaru and then the latter after his death crawling out from Sasuke's neck. And death indeed equals demise of physical form, well, unless you are Orochimaru or Hagoromo, that's what I'm saying. Even in Narutoverse consciousness gets lost once the brain dies and the soul then goes to the pure land. Didn't happen with Orochimaru tho, meaning he cheats death--Elveonora (talk) 13:56, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

I believe his status at this moment is as same as Minato from Pain's fight and Kushina form Kurama's fight. All those cases have the same situation that Naruto has about to die several times. —Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol (Talk) 14:55, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
Weren't chakra Minato and Kushina something akin to Shadow Clones sealed with fuuinjutsu? This is kinda different, as those vanished once the task was over for them.--Elveonora (talk) 19:37, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
They were chakra, but nothing indicated they worked like shadow clones. Their disappearance was nothing like it. They seemed more like quasi-applications of the original ninshū, the whole understanding each others' feelings, but leaving actual chakra behind. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:40, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Prince Edit

Since his mom was a princess, doesn't that make him one? Not sure how these things work.--Elveonora (talk) 12:14, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

I was wondering the same thing. XD ~IndxcvNovelist (talk | contribs | PR | RLS) 12:16, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

Bump--Elveonora (talk) 12:05, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

Sharingan Edit

I'm just going to go ahead and broach this topic. His mother had a Sharingan. His son had a Sharingan. We now know the Rinnegan is the final evolution of the Sharingan with the addition of the Sage's chakra. Logical conclusion: Hagoromo had a Sharingan. Thoughts? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 07:09, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Despite that he didn't mention it, but I couldn't agree more. —Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol (Talk) 07:29, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
Despite agreeing with your reasoning, I don't think there's any need to put the Sharingan in the Sage's infobox. Mainly because Hagoromo always used the Rinnegan, which we count as a different dōjutsu from the Sharingan, the Mangekyō Sharingan and the Byakugan.--JOA20 (talk) 07:32, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
That makes no sense whatsoever. Firstly, you have no idea how often (or not) Hagoromo used the Sharingan. Secondly, how is it a different dōjutsu? Its the final form of the Sharingan. We now know how it works. The Sharingan evolves into the Rinnegan when the Sage's chakra is within the user's body. And thirdly, we don't list things by how often they're used. We list things based on whether or not people have them. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 07:42, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
I actually have no problem with adding the Sharingan as Hagoromo's kekkei genkai. But if that were the case, should we add Mangekyō Sharingan as well?--JOA20 (talk) 07:45, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
The Rinnegan is described as specifically being the power of Hagoromo's chakra in his explanation, which is brought about by combining the chakras of Asura and Indra in a single host. This could indicate that Hagoromo was simply born with the Rinnegan, which I believe is how the situation was explained in previous accounts, which would mean that he never had a Sharingan. Likewise, it seems to me that if Hashirama had obtained Indra's chakra instead, he probably would have still obtained the Rinnegan without ever having had a Sharingan. There's also the fact that we still don't know where the Byakugan and Sharingan came from -- it's possible that they were obtained along with the power of Chakra. Given that their primary functions include the ability to observe chakra, it seems strange that they would have existed prior to mankind acquiring the power of the Divine Tree. Plus, her Sharingan is a third eye, which is just weird. Considering that Obito and Madara both obtained horns when becoming the Ten Tails' Jinchuriki, I can't help but think that these weird physical mutations are a result of the Divine Tree's chakra, not pre-existing genetic conditions. Unless Kaguya was an alien... Hrmm. At any rate, I feel like there are currently too many other possible explanations to just assume that Madara going from Mangekyō Sharingan to Rinnegan means that the Rinnegan can only evolve from a Mangekyō Sharingan. FF-Suzaku (talk) 10:12, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya's sharingan seems to be the final form rather than the rinnegan MangekyoSasuke (talk) 07:47, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

From what I understand, the Sage never had the Sharingan. Previous accounts state he was born with the Rinnegan, natural evolution of the Sharingan it may be, but if he was born with the Rinnegan he never had the Sharingan.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 11:19, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

For reasons I already state in similar on-going discussions, that were likewise already stated by others here, I disagree with listing Hagoromo as a Sharingan user. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:33, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Do you guys remember a while back when the sage was first shown, his silouette had Kaguya/Shinju's eyes, right after he became a jinchuuriki? MangekyoSasuke (talk) 19:27, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

NopeUmishiru (talk) 19:40, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

I meant when Obito spoke about him. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 19:42, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Nope, can't even see his facial features let alone his eyesUmishiru (talk) 20:25, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

@Ultimate: The details of his birth weren't even touched upon until last chapter. He was only stated to have the Rinnegan. Not that he was born with it. Logic dictates that if his mother has it, his son has it, and it is genetically proven to be the final form of the Sharingan, then he had the Sharingan. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 22:21, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Logical people would agree with you, but unless it's spoon fed to them directly, the majority of editors will say no.--Reliops (talk) 18:09, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

Hagoromo's Hair Color Edit

Hagoromo's hair color is grayish red: http://i.imgur.com/10qf5No.png The tone color variation yields red: http://i.imgur.com/Fkoeluq.png It is Grayish Red and should be updated on the appearance description Celebrei (talk) 11:14, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Yup, his hair is red. Perhaps used to be a more lively red when he was younger. I'm more worried about his skin tho, dude must not have been sunbathing like since ever lol. No wonder since he flies in some multi-dimensional timeless space for centuries.--Elveonora (talk) 12:21, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

His current hair color IS Grayish-Pink. There's No confirmation that his hair was red before. So, you should put his hair color the way "it is". Not just from some speculations. The color variation tone your provided is also pink tone, which of course consist some red, but they are not actually red (Not red like Kushina or Mito Uzumaki), unless you're color-blind. If you look at Mito Uzumaki's hair color when she was very old, you'll see that her red hair is dull-red or grayish-red, unlike current SOT6P's hair color which is grayish-pink. Use the front color page, where he's with Naruto, and ask some strangers what hair color does SOT6P have, they'd say grayish-pink, not red. —This unsigned comment was made by Gofkun (talkcontribs) .

C'mon people, it's not rocket science to put your thoughts in an orderly way, and respecting the chronology of the topic. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:07, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

On the cover of Chapter 671 looks something like brown.—Entondark (talk) 23:30, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

No, it's Grayish Red/Desaturated Red, the desaturation/loss of vivacity is caused by senility, but Hagoromo's hair is definitely red: http://i.imgur.com/eZk1u9q.jpg This is pink :(which is different from red) http://i.imgur.com/gHStH55.png Celebrei (talk) 00:46, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

Do you really have to use Color Hexa to determine the color that is Obviously shown there? The picture it's obvious that it's grayish pink, not red to normal people eyes. OK, fine here's another example from color hexa. http://i.imgur.com/EygAHdj.jpg . I doubt his hair color was red before, because look at Mito Uzumaki's hair color when she's very old, her hair was dull/brownish red, not as light (grayish pink) as current Hagoromo's hair. —This unsigned comment was made by Gofkun (talkcontribs) .

No sir, it is red: http://i.imgur.com/8wZPZDC.jpg And this is reinforced by the second official colored page of 671: http://i.imgur.com/9cOnkOW.jpg Just like Mito in the anime, it is grayish/desaturated red. The primary color is red, the desaturation of the hair color is caused by senility, but the primary color is definitely red for both Mito and Hagoromo. Celebrei (talk) 04:29, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

Asura and Indra Ōtsutsuki Edit

Why was the last name removed from Asura and Indra? They are their father's son. They should have their last name. Steveo920, 15:48, April 2, 2014

Because that wasn't confirmed. Seelentau 愛 20:53, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Really, we need something as simple as that to be spoon fed to us? It's the same idiocy as with Tsunade. We know she is a Senju. Madara kept hammering about it. Yet her article isn't properly named.--Reliops (talk) 01:21, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

Though I wouldn't use the term "idiocy", I agree. Not going to change other's mindsets, but nevertheless, I agree. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol 01:26, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
I agree too, in the case that this is put to a vote. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 02:41, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
I agree as well and i highly doubt Hagoromo would refer to his sons using their last name (Kuroiraikou (talk) 03:37, April 22, 2014 (UTC))

Then we are in agreement?--Reliops (talk) 12:04, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

Nope. They weren't named that, so they stay without the surname. What if Indora was called Uchiha because of reasons? • Seelentau 愛 12:23, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

If that were the case then the manga would have said so. What parent refers to their immediate children by their full name? Given how Hagoromo took on his mother surname, why wouldn't his children. Also, considering the fact they were both candidates to be his successors, that would indicate they would have taken his surname.--Reliops (talk) 17:16, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

Still, it wasn't confirmed. Is it really that big a deal? Each of them is known to be Hagoromo's son, so no need to put an Ōtsutsuki after their first names to show that they are the Sage's sons.--JOA20 (talk) 17:22, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

Skin Color Edit

Should it be added to the Appearence section that his skin color is pale blue-ish? Or wathever that color is? --RIkudo (talk) 02:50, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

Call it pale. Just one colour back and forth tug of war for him is enough. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:52, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

Marking or third eye? Edit

I was wondering, is the thing on Hagoromo's forehead really a marking, or is it possible that it's a third eye? After all, it looks the same as his mother's when it's open. Bloodytom (talk) 06:23, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

It's a marking. Seelentau 愛 08:03, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

How do you know that for a fact? It looks to me like he has a third eye like this mother had.--Reliops (talk) 21:24, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

Because it was never ever indicated to be anything else than a marking. • Seelentau 愛 21:28, April 18, 2014 (UTC)
Definitely a marking, like undoubtedly. It's drawn on his forehead, not sticking in and out like an eye--Elveonora (talk) 13:09, April 19, 2014 (UTC)

Senjutsu of six paths Edit

Hi , I am new and I am curious what Madara meant by mentioning it when Naruto's back in new mode was shown. Could "Senjutsu of six paths" be reffering to Hagoromo's Senjutsu, original most powerfull Senjutsu ?.... It could be invented by Hagoromo when he found out Ten tails is made of nature energy.

Could it mean that Hagoromo was also Senjutsu' user..., the wielder of Original Senjutsu which was later taught by Toad, Snake and Slug are Sage's personal summons. Maybe it could also explain why Toad Sage mode, Slug Sage mode and Snake Sage mode have most of the common abilities with few unique, which would be result of Hagoromo's Ultimate Senjutsu being adapted by different animals which changed it to fit their tastes and use. I mean Toad Sage mode is known of great physcial strength/durability of the body, Snake Sage mode is known of Speed and agility and Slug Sage mode would be known by healing/regenerative powers.

What do you think ?

--TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki (talk) 21:41, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Senjutsu is basically using of senjutsu chakra, which is based on natural energy. Now, Juubi is a mass of natural energy, and it was sealed inside Hagoromo. You figure the rest.Faust-RSI (talk)

No offense, but I think people went full retard with the "senjutsu of six paths" I'd like it gone from Naruto's article too and so on. Basically, all it means is "senjutsu of sage of the six paths" shortened or even more directly, Hagoromo's Senjutsu--Elveonora (talk) 09:05, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

Exactly, This is what I meant. Hagoromo Ootsutsuki should be also listed as Senjutsu user. Besides Senjusu of six paths is shortcut to the Senjutsu of Sage of six paths, which clearly imply Hagoromo as Senjutsu user. Besides if you take carefull look at Naruto's performance in the lastest chapter then clearly not just his physical strentgh/durabiltiy of the body increased which is main trait of the Toad Sage mode but also his speed/agility(Snake Sage mode's trait) and also healing/regeneration powers(Hashirama's/Slug Sage mode's trait) also get increased, which clearly indicate Hagoromo was not just Senjutsu user but also user of Ultimate Senjutsu which was later derivered into animal Sage modes: Toad, Snake, Slug. --TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki (talk) 09:11, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

He with no doubt is?/was a Senjutsu user, it's hardly refutable at this point. The reason why I reverted your edit was because speculation and grammar, sorry.--Elveonora (talk) 09:15, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I apologize for my grammar and I didn't want to create mess here ;/. Anyway while you are complete right about speculation of Toad, Snake and Slug sage modes derivered from the Senjutsu of six paths, I don't see reason why should't you list Hagoromo as Senjutsu user, please explain it to me. Clearly the way to harm Ten tails is use of Sage chakra and Hagoromo fought it. Another point is that Naruto just recived power from Hagoromo and Madara called it Senjtusu of six paths, while it also was proven that Naruto has not more pigmentation around his eyes, just like Sage of six paths.

Tell me why am I wrong ? --TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki (talk) 09:24, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

If it were on me alone, he would be listed as a user by now. Just wait for feedback of others first--Elveonora (talk) 09:30, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, then I will wait for feedback of others ;), thanks for fast response --TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki (talk) 09:33, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

Until we learn that Hagoromo's appearance is due to a permanent Sage Mode, I'm against him being listed as Sage Mode user. This is why I'm hating these latest chapters, they're taking everything we know and tap-dancing on top of it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:21, April 21, 2014 (UTC)

I don't think Hagoromo is even using Sage Mode. Something tells me his chakra just happens to be Senjutsu--Elveonora (talk) 14:44, April 21, 2014 (UTC)

We now know of Edit

Another person besides Gaara who has retained his jinchuuriki powers, it should be noted.--Elveonora (talk) 21:00, April 19, 2014 (UTC)

Since a jinchūriki dies when a tailed beast is extracted, why do we assume that they would lose these abilities in the first place? --Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 00:03, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
Good point. The answer is, dunno, we just assume, because logic has it that if you remove the source of x, subject should not be able to use x any longer or something. Perhaps it's no oddity, but basic stuff for a jinchuuriki to keep his/her Biju powers, the thing is, there haven't been many to told us after the beast was extracted, so... but we mention this in Gaara's case, so for the sake of consistency I suppose.

Also may you please check his abilities section? I see something wrong with it... to be more exact, why does "Ninshu" section talk about Fuuinjutsu, Chibaku Tensei and the Moon, how is that relevant to it? Also him being a Senjutsu user is yet to be mentioned anywhere--Elveonora (talk) 12:04, April 20, 2014 (UTC)

Senjutsu of the Six Paths 2 Edit

(I know there is a similarly named discussion but this isn't entirely the same) Naruto was stated to have obtained the Senjutsu of the Six Paths (六道の仙術, Rikudō no Senjutsu), and that its just Hagoromo's Senjutsu. But from my perspective it seems more like it is its own independent thing. Like how the Six Paths Technique is its own thing. The term Six Paths isn't exclusive to Hagoromo and the name Sage of Six Paths is derived from the Six Paths Technique, which was apparently his namesake. But there are other users of the Six Paths Technique now, he was just the originally. Senjutsu of the Six Paths is probably as equally dependent from Hagoromo. Just because Hagoromo had it, doesn't mean it is uniquely his Senjutsu just because of its name. It obviously isn't something that is solely unique to him. Skarrj (talk) 19:25, April 26, 2014 (UTC)

My interpretation of Rikudou Senjutsu is Hagoromo's Senjutsu, nothing else. Just like "second six paths" means "second Hagoromo" or so.--Elveonora (talk) 09:11, April 27, 2014 (UTC)

ProphecyEdit

According to the manga, Gamamaru was the one that told the tailed beasts about Naruto, NOT Hagoromo, am I right? WindStar7125 (talk) 23:31, May 2, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125

No, Gamamru told Hagoromo who in turn told the beasts. • Seelentau 愛 23:40, May 2, 2014 (UTC)

Oh, OK. My bad. WindStar7125 (talk) 00:23, May 3, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125

Nine Tailed Beasts JinchūrikiEdit

The Sage of the Six Paths is the first Jinchūriki of the nine tailed beasts from the anime when Kurama remembered when hagoromo told them :"I don't have long any more. Shukaku, Matatabi, Isobu, Son Gokū, Kokuō, Saiken, Chōmei, Gyūki, Kurama. Even though you have been separated, you shall always be together. Until eventually that time shall come when you will become one… You each carry a name… And with a different shape than you had up to now, you will be shown a righteous path, different from the time you spent inside of me. What is true power… …Until that time…"

and told them that unlike when they were inside of him they will be token throught different paths and they must know what true strength is .

I guess That is a prouf that Hagoromo was the Jinchūriki of each tailed beast So I suggest you add to Tailed Beast : Shukaku, Matatabi, Isobu, Son Gokū, Kokuō, Saiken, Chōmei, Gyūki, Kurama , Shinju . Asesino04 (talk) 19:07, May 20, 2014 (UTC)Asesino04

Watch episode #205 again to see the reason. —Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol (Talk) 19:16, May 20, 2014 (UTC)
"...And with a different shape than you had up to now, you will be shown a righteous path, different from the time you spent inside of me..." This statement is referring to the fact they once held the cumulative shape of the Ten Tails. He used the 'Creation of All Things' technique to split the Ten Tails into the Nine Tailed Beasts. Atrix471 (talk) 00:42, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

thrid eyes confirmed ? Edit

the new pics of Hagoromo is clearly showing a colored third eyes like his mom , so does that make it official that he has a third eyes ? --Tchad1 (talk) 06:55, June 11, 2014 (UTC)

No. He was shown having that "3rd eye" when he was mentioned by name several chapters ago. --Questionaredude (talk) 06:58, June 11, 2014 (UTC)

Hagoromo's "third eye" is still clearly a marking. The eye isn't even shaped like Madara's or Kaguya's. "Demons run when a good man goes to war." (talk) 07:51, June 11, 2014 (UTC)

How is it 'clearly' a marking? It's a different color. Sure, we've got no evidence stating it isn't a marking, but neither have we evidence claiming it is just a marking. Consider this; his horns arent' like his mother's either, but he has those. His Rinnegan aren't like his mother's, but he has those too. Seeing as those with the 'eyes of samsara' seem to naturally possess a third eye (Madara, Kaguya) is it unthinkable that maybe he has the third eye as well - just a little different? Besides, in that one scene of Kaguya remembering a younger Hagoromo, it seems kind of like said third eye is looking at the viewer. I could be wrong (my eyes are not admittedly the best) but that's just how it seems to me. (Bloodytom (talk) 02:33, June 13, 2014 (UTC))

1000% a marking, my sight is like totally bad as well, but even i can tell.--Elveonora (talk) 10:08, June 13, 2014 (UTC)
How can you tell? It's two-dimensional. It doesn't matter how good your eyes are, unless you can perceive depth where there is none, that's an insane claim to make. If anything, there's more evidence to support that it's an actual third eye; the concept of 'those possessing the rinnegan' being able to access a third eye being the most obvious, but also, in the colored image of him, there is a slight shadow beneath it, hinting that a portion of his forehead protrudes slightly.Bloodytom (talk) 11:09, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
It's not an eye because whenever the Sennin was shown as a shadow, both his eyes were visible, but no third eye. • Seelentau 愛 11:54, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

So...appearance again. Edit

Sooo. We get another look at younger Hagoromo, and he still looked as if he stuffed the Ten-Tails in his butt. Which brings up the question yet again, is he in that Sage Transformation form that the other Ten-Tails jinchuriki are in, or did he alway just...you know. Look like that.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 13:51, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

The latter, he always looked the way he does. You can see his brother having horns too, along with the tomoe pattern on clothes--Elveonora (talk) 14:33, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Deceased? Edit

He seems to be popping up regularly now, which really makes me question whether or not we should have him labeled as deceased. my suggestion is for the time being changing it to unknown, as he seems to be living "outside" of normal time/reality but able to interact with it. Shadowfox337 (talk) 06:53, July 3, 2014 (UTC)

He's dead. While his chakra ghost or whatever seems like.he can watch over stuff, he is still dead.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 08:39, July 3, 2014 (UTC)
I argued the same thing, was told the same thing... I wouldn't say he is dead just yet. As I stated earlier, death in Narutoverse equals the soul leaving the impure land/world and entering the pure one. Dead is someone who can be reanimated. For all we know, the "ghost" is not just chakra but also his spirit, in which case he is "alivish"--Elveonora (talk) 10:18, July 3, 2014 (UTC)
Death is also never reaching the pure world and ending up in the stomach of a death god. The end result is the same; if your life ends, you are dead. You may have various forms of "living" after the fact, but you are still dead.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 10:46, July 3, 2014 (UTC)

Seperate paragraph for Senjutsu of six paths Edit

I would like to point out that currently Senjutsu of six paths described as Six paths Technique is mentioned/contained inside paragraph about Rinnegan. However these powers are different and only Madara, Hagoromo,Kaguya were known to posses both. I Would like to pull out this information and put in in new seperate paragraph called Senjutsu of six paths in abilities section. Please correct me, If I am wrong. --TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki (talk) 8:01, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

alive Edit

Before Madara grew breasts and vagina, people ridiculed my notion of Kaguya being alive and wanted her listed as deceased at all costs. Now we have Hagoromo in material world talking. Can anyone tell me how exactly is he dead?--Elveonora (talk) 13:43, July 24, 2014 (UTC)

He's more of a ghost than a living being. He is incarnacted chakra, nothing more. Edo Tensi victims are more alive than him. • Seelentau 愛 13:45, July 24, 2014 (UTC)
Before Madara had a Black Zex Change Operation she was unknown, with death being more likely because *@($ing seriously. Hagoromo on the other hand, is still dead. Ghost, chakra projection, Lich Lord of the Scouge, whatever he may be, doesn't change the fact that he is still very dead.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 13:54, July 24, 2014 (UTC)
Now sure how floating around and talking falls into the category of being dead though. We list Orochimaru as alive, he doesn't differ from Hagoromo.--Elveonora (talk) 14:14, July 24, 2014 (UTC)

Don't get my wrong, but intent isn't to cause trouble. I just ask, because the moment Sasuke slapped Kabuto's flesh and a piece of Oro's chakra together, we didn't hesitate to list Oro alive despite being incarnated chakra or whatever. Now Hagoromo is incarnated chakra but isn't given the same treatment for one reason or another..--Elveonora (talk) 15:39, July 24, 2014 (UTC)

The difference is that Orochimaru was never dead. Just under a genjutsu. Iloveinoxxx (talk) 16:15, July 24, 2014 (UTC)
Really? So he somehow made his way from the genjutsu and became one with the piece of chakra or something? In my opinion he wasn't ever trapped with Totsuka Blade, but that's another topic. The thing is, if you say he was trapped, then the Orochimaru walking around can't be the same as Itachi defeated.--Elveonora (talk) 16:19, July 24, 2014 (UTC)
But they are because Orochimaru split his consciousness. He is a living, breathing being made of flesh. He was literally reincarnated. Hagoromo is not, he is a chakra entity. • Seelentau 愛 09:03, July 25, 2014 (UTC)

Lemme get this straight...Edit

This dicussion is closed.

So Hagoromo and Hamura fought the Ten-Tails (Kaguya) and then sealed it within Hagoromo. Then as Hagoromo was nearing his death, he separated the chakra of the Ten-Tails into the nine tailed beasts. Then he and his brother used the Yin-Yang (Sun and Moon) seal to turned the husk of the Ten-Tails (Demonic Statue of the Outer Path) into the core of the Chibaku Tensei to create the moon, correct? Because what is confusing me is when Black Zetsu said Kaguya's sons turned the Ten-Tails into the core of the Chibaku Tensei, but wasn't the Ten-Tails already its husk before being sealed into the moon? WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task (Talk) (Contributions) 04:02, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

I'd assume the translation was a little bit off; I'm all but certain Hagoromo separated the Ten-Tails into the nine tailed beasts before sealing the statue in the Moon/Chibaku Tensei for safe keeping. Although, I was under the impression that the Yin and Yang palm seals made the sealing technique which sealed the Ten-Tails into Hagoromo, but I could be wrong. --Atrix471 (talk) 04:27, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
eh, wrong. He was alone when he created the TB and sealed the husk. His brother only helped with the first sealing years before. • Seelentau 愛 13:11, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
So the Ten-Tails was sealed into Hagoromo, then turned into the core of the Chibaku Tensei with the Yin-Yang seal? Huh? How about the creation of the tailed beasts and the sealing of the husk into the moon? WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task (Talk) (Contributions) 13:18, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

You are correct WindStar. Chapter 681 says the Sun-Moon YYR was what turned her into Chibaku Tensei. The term "Gedo Mazo" (Demonic Statue) is a nickname that Madara made up, nothing more. The "statue" has always been the Ten-Tails, not a separate thing. It's just some people around here like to play stupid and purposely confuse others by not merging the articles.--Elveonora (talk) 13:45, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

And I think that's fine as it is. I don't see any difference between the statue and the Tailed Beasts. Without any of them, the Ten Tails can't be revived. But we don't go as far to merge all Tailed Beasts into one article since they were originally one, right? Or am I confusing something here?Iloveinoxxx (talk) 14:24, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
Except the "statue" = Ten-Tails. And the Tailed Beasts were never originally one, the chakra they have was originally one. The Tailed Beasts are as much the Ten-Tails as all living entities to whom Hagoromo spread his chakra are.--Elveonora (talk) 14:38, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
Na, statue = husk of the TT. Windstar, the TT was sealed in Hagoromo, later split into body and chakra, the body was sealed by Hagoromo in the Chibaku Tensei, the chakra was divided and made into the TB via COAT. • Seelentau 愛 15:35, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
Same thing, since the "husk" is the degraded body. It's all just semantics anyway, the important thing is that "Gedo Mazo" is just a weakened form of the Ten-Tails/Kaguya. Even Black Zetsu called Gedo Mazo as the Ten-Tails, that's why this topic exists in the first place.--Elveonora (talk) 15:54, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
It's not the same thing, since half of it (the chakra) is missing. • Seelentau 愛 17:35, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
So when Naruto is at half his chakra, he is no longer Naruto? Its form may change, but it isn't a separate entity.--Elveonora (talk) 17:36, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
...it is no separate entity, but its body was separated from its mind, so...? • Seelentau 愛 17:45, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

The statue is just the Ten Tails with no chakra. That's all there is to it.--Officialkamuiblade (talk) 18:12, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, when? The only thing separated was its chakra, the mind was there still. Had there been no mind, Black Zetsu wouldn't exist, because mind-less "statues" don't think, right? ;)--Elveonora (talk) 18:17, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
If there was no mind, then why didn't the statue do anything after being re-summoned? • Seelentau 愛 18:25, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
From the moon? No idea exactly, but it was shown in shackles. Also Kaguya doesn't seem to be very talkative, but she definitely spoke to Madara after Guy blew out his guts.--Elveonora (talk) 18:31, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

What we were told earlier: Hagoromo defeated the Ten-Tails, sealed it within himself, and near his death, separated the Ten-Tails' chakra into the nine tailed beasts, and used Chibaku Tensei to seal the husk of the TT. What we were told recently: Hagoromo and Hamura defeated the TT, sealed it within Hagoromo, and according to BZ, used the brothers used Yin-Yang seal to turn the TT into the core of the Chibaku Tensei, and created the moon. So where was Hamura when Hagoromo created the nine tailed beasts? And the husk was still inside Hagoromo for awhile, so Hamura and Hagoromo turned that into the CT core? @Elve, @Tau, mighty thanks for your contributions, but someone please connect these two seemingly contradicting stories for me. WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task (Talk) (Contributions) 20:54, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

No contradictions, Hamura was simply omitted in original version.
  • Hagoromo and Hamura fight and defeat the Ten-Tails with Hagoromo becoming the jinchuuriki
  • Hagoromo nearing his death splits the Ten-Tails' chakra and creates the Tailed Beasts using Creation of All Things technique. Then he and Hamura proceed to seal what remained of the Ten-Tails using the YYR sun-moon combo seal--Elveonora (talk) 21:01, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

K. So BZ said that the TT was turned into the CT core and the moon was made. That his mother was sealed by her own sons. And the Ten-Tails' husk was sealed in the moon. By that logic, the husk and the TT are the same thing. And the TT husk was basically Kaguya and the Shinju fused, but without enough chakra. WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task (Talk) (Contributions) 21:06, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

They are. "Gedo Mazo" is nothing but the Ten-Tails on chakra diet. The term "Gedo Mazo" didn't exist until thousands years later when Madara pulled it out of his ass.

EDIT: "Gedo Mazo" is as much a thing as Naruto is number-one unpredictable ninja, it's just a nickname, especially why it is totally idiotic to have that as a separate article, like totally idiotic--Elveonora (talk) 21:10, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

Not to argue about whether the articles should be merged, but Madara does seem to consider Ten-Tails and its husk as the same entity. In chapter 610, he referred to the Ten-Tails as the Mazo, despite it being in its revived form (sort of like how Orochimaru refers to Jugo's senninka as cursed seal power). Anyway, as for the Yin-Yang seal, Yin Kurama said that Hagoromo was immobilised for months after creating and scattering the tailed beasts, so there was theoretically time for him to meet with Hamura and turn the Ten-Tails' husk into the core. The alternative is that the Yin-Yang Seal turned it into the core before it was sealed in Hagoromo and its chakra was split, which isn't really implied by anything else.--BeyondRed (talk) 21:46, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
Not sure how some people even find it possible to argue with manga facts, of course they are the same entity. That one was cleared up, topic done. Although nothing will be done with that, because apparently some admins and staff find it less confusing for people when they are confused with incorrect information, awesome. Because lies are more person-friendly than the truth--Elveonora (talk) 22:45, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
The articles aren't being merged people. Such is just a figment of Elveonora's imagination. Also, Black Zetsu called the statue Gedo Mazo as well. It wasn't named by Madara anymore than Black Zetsu was Madara's will. That being said, I don't think this topic is about what the Gedo Mazo is, so kindly can it, Elve. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20px 23:47, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

So can we agree that changes need to be made in both Hagoromo and Hamura's articles? Because all I know is that the brothers turned the Ten-Tails into the CT core, but the husk was sealed in the moon as well (which could mean the husk was turned into the core, which means its article needs some changes also). WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task (Talk) (Contributions) 00:52, July 28, 2014 (UTC)

@Foxie, re-read the chapter where Madara explains to Obito that he nicknamed it "Gedo Mazo" BZ uses the term simply because he got that from Madara. And the topic is about it, the OP was confused that BZ said Hagoromo and Hamura had sealed the Ten-Tails into the moon, instead of having said they did Gedo Mazo, that's because Gedo Mazo = Ten-Tails, with Gedo Mazo being nothing but a nickname. Having a form of the Ten-Tails as a separately article with its name being simply a nickname is absolutely retarded, excuse my honesty.--Elveonora (talk) 12:17, July 28, 2014 (UTC)

So in conclusion because yes I am going to end this conversation right now before Ten Tailed Fox comes in and this becomes a larger cluster$*#( then it already is.
WindStar7125 as I'm sure has already been explained several times in fact, the order of things was the Hagoromo and Hamura beat the Ten-Tails and sealed it into Hagoromo and then when he was about to die, Hagaromo created the tailed beast and put the statue into the moon. Yes we are all aware of what the statue is and that can be found in the articles in question.
There, WindStar7125's question has been addressed. Thank you, have a good day. I will block anyone for a day or more if you respond after my message, whichever one tickles my fancy at the time. And yes that does mean confirmation that this discussion is closed. Discussion done have a pleasant day.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:36, July 28, 2014 (UTC)

This dicussion is closed.

Staff Edit

Did he actually ever use one? Because it's been just Truth Seeking Ball.--Elveonora (talk) 11:23, August 2, 2014 (UTC)

Bump--Elveonora (talk) 11:25, August 3, 2014 (UTC)

Yes. He had one before becoming a jinchuriki. Look at the picture of him and his brother against the Ten-Tails.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 11:37, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
He had Truth Seeking Balls before he became a jinchuuriki as well, that's why the staff in fact might have been them.--Elveonora (talk) 11:56, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
He did? • Seelentau 愛 11:58, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140611061247/naruto/images/4/44/Young_Hagoromo.png --Elveonora (talk) 12:15, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
And he wasn't a Jinchuriki on that picture because...? • Seelentau 愛 12:25, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
Because that was Kaguya's memory?--Elveonora (talk) 12:33, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
And that stops her from remembering what the dude she's trapped in looks like because...?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:37, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
Why would she recall him young though? She was trapped in him until he was an old dude.--Elveonora (talk) 12:38, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
So she didn't see what he looked like as a young man? • Seelentau 愛 14:25, August 3, 2014 (UTC)

My point is that her memory of him young makes sense only if it was him when he was about to seal her, otherwise she would have recalled him as an old man.--Elveonora (talk) 15:16, August 3, 2014 (UTC)

I don't get it. She has memories of him all the way up to her sealing in the moon, so why wouldn't she be able to remember him as a young man? • Seelentau 愛 15:49, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
The image you posted shows Hagoromo holding his Yang seal hand out, so that was probably before she was sealed, because perspective. It would be logical for her to remember her children in their youth, as that was when she could get the best look at them, and Hagoromo's seal could have prevented her from seeing the outside world at all. --Atrix471 (talk) 16:09, August 3, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, because you usually remember people the way you have last seen them. That means her remembering him young is contextual and likely the said memory was moments before he sealed her into himself.--Elveonora (talk) 16:27, August 3, 2014 (UTC)

Why into himself, though? If this is the last memory she has of him (what I doubt), then it would be the one directly before her sealing in the moon. • Seelentau 愛 16:53, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
Actually no, because he split the Ten-Tails before sealing it. I doubt she remembered anything after having all her chakra removed. --Atrix471 (talk) 16:57, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
You don't need chakra to have a working memory. • Seelentau 愛 17:02, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
@Seel, he sealed her into the moon as an old man I believe? We were told he split the chakra and made the moon on his deathbed, so that wasn't a memory from the second sealing.--Elveonora (talk) 17:10, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
You don't have to die as an old man, though. • Seelentau 愛 17:11, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
So he aged post-death as a phantom? ...--Elveonora (talk) 17:16, August 3, 2014 (UTC)

Lmao, I totally forgot about that. Anyway, you know how this ends: We won't add that he had the TSB before becoming Jinchuriki. • Seelentau 愛 18:18, August 3, 2014 (UTC)

Well, it's true though. And I'm not talking about adding that, but removal of the monk staff from his infobox, because a tool made of chakra isn't an actual tool, I think--Elveonora (talk) 18:27, August 3, 2014 (UTC)

There's no viable reason to assume he had it before being a jinchūriki, since it's listed as a Tailed Beast Skill. All Shinju jinchūriki had it, and Naruto had it upon receiving a portion of all nine Bijū. I've only now remembered this, but I believe that answers this discussion. --Atrix471 (talk) 18:34, August 3, 2014 (UTC)

Her sons obviously inherited her powers.--Elveonora (talk) 18:39, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
Episode #329 black & gold one(Kuroiraikou (talk) 19:07, August 3, 2014 (UTC))
To be fair, the anime frequently makes colouring errors. --Atrix471 (talk) 19:08, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
'Tis true. I own the volume where that chapter appears and, in the manga, the staff is totally black. The anime got it wrong. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 19:26, August 3, 2014 (UTC)

Chibaku Tensei and Hagoromo's death Edit

According to the latest chapter, the "seal" did turn the Ten-Tails into the gravity core of the Chibaku Tensei; as such, the events seem to have unfolded a bit differently from how Tobi stated. Basically, the Ten-Tails' body was sealed inside the moon not when Hagoromo died, but when he and Hamura defeated the Ten-Tails. Seeing that the tailed beasts got out of Kaguya's body by themselves, it isn't so far-fetched to say that Hagoromo ripped off the chakra of the Jūbi while the monster was being sealed. Any thoughts?--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna JOA20 16:41, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

I'm super confused by this. Hagoromo didn't look like dying, which he should, considering he unsealed the Ten-Tails from himself. Also he was young in the flashback, even though he died as an old man. I smell a retcon--Elveonora (talk) 16:46, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, pretty much. Unless he could survive a little after having the Ten-Tails' chakra divided into the nine beasts out of his body.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna JOA20 16:54, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
I think Kishi screwed up a little. We were told "gedo mazo" was what kept Hagoromo alive after he separated the chakra and made the Tailed Beasts. We were told that he then sealed the Ten-Tails' body on his deathbed. The chronology seems very messy. In the latest chapter he seemingly didn't seal the "gedo mazo" but healthy Ten-Tails and it wasn't on a deathbed literary nor figuratively--Elveonora (talk) 16:57, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
Well, Hagoromo told Naruto that he and his brother sealed the TT inside of him. So, I think that Hamura and Hagoromo were sealing the TT, not creating the Chibaku Tensei. We only saw them touching something together like Sasuke and Naruto. That could be the moment were they sealed the TT.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 17:07, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
Only that Black Zetsu said that Kaguya/TT was turned in the Chibaku Tensei core by Hagoromo and Hamura, just like Naruto and Sasuke did.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna JOA20 17:13, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Let's not forget that Kishi has, time and time again, made it apparent that chakra and body are different and can be separated. -- KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 17:18, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

I forgot that. The only thing I can think of is that Hagoromo and Hamura turned the Rabbit into the core, while the TT is sealed inside of Hagoromo. But this time both the Gedou Mazou and the Rabbit were turned into the core.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 17:27, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
Well…the Ten-Tails' "chakra" is the tailed beasts, the "body" is the Gedō Mazō. The little problem here is that, if the Mazō was sealed in the moon by Hagoromo and Hamura when they were young-looking, and the Ten-Tails' jinchūriki can survive the tailed beasts' extraction only because of the Mazō's life force, how could Hagoromo live even after creating the nine tailed beasts without the Mazō?--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna JOA20 17:28, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
We'll get that answer when Madara wakes up next chapter. -- KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 17:31, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
Well, in this chapter nine of the ten tails turned into the known Tailed Beasts, while the tenth tail became the Rabbit. And there was the body, the Gedou Mazou. If Kaguya is that Rabbit and not the Gedou Mazou, then Hagoromo and Hamura may have turned it alone into the core without the Gedou Mazou and the 9TB (he hasn't created them yet). And that Rabbit/Kaguya is what created BZ later.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 17:38, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
The rabbit was the remainder of Kaguya's chakra inside the Mazo--Elveonora (talk) 19:12, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, any explanations?--Elveonora (talk) 09:48, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

'bout what? • Seelentau 愛 10:16, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
The chronology of Hagoromo sealing TT into himself and then into the moon doesn't work--Elveonora (talk) 10:30, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, it probably doesn't. I can't explain it, sorry^^ • Seelentau 愛 10:39, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

Hagoromo's gifts Edit

After the latest chapter we should agree Hagoromo only gave Naruto and Sasuke the seals and everything else was Kabuto's and Obito's doings. I.e. Sasuke unlocked Rinnegan because Kabuto mixed Ashura's DNA and chakra from Hashirama with Sasuke's own Indra's DNA and chakra, while Naruto unlocked Six paths Sage mode because Obito sealed the rest of the Biju's chakra inside him.Faust-RSI (talk) 18:22, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

…sorry, where was it stated that Hagoromo only gave Naruto and Sasuke the seals? He gave them half of his chakra for each as well.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna JOA20 19:12, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
That was actually never stated. The only thing we know of he gave them are the seals and instructions--Elveonora (talk) 19:14, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
He told the Hokage that he gave his Chakra.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 19:24, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
Yet somehow this article states he gave them Rikudo Senjutsu and Rinnegan. And of course he gave them his chakra - neither sealing nor Naruto's magic healing would work without it. Faust-RSI (talk) 19:31, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
The seals may be the chakra he gave--Elveonora (talk) 19:29, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
Yes. Seals are useless without chakra that activates and runs them. Faust-RSI (talk) 19:31, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
Still, while we are certain that the seals were given by Hagoromo, we aren't about who gave them Rikudō Senjutsu and Rinnegan. Hagoromo stated that in order to awaken the Rinnegan, one must combine Indra and Asura's chakra into their body, or possess Hagoromo's chakra, either way works. Now, we know Hagoromo gave Naruto and Sasuke half of his chakra for each (otherwise he wouldn't have bothered to ask the Hokage to help him since he had no more chakra); we don't know if Kabuto did effectively implant Hashirama's cells into Sasuke, he just stated that his studies done with the First's DNA helped the healing (Edit: now I remembered that Hashirama transferred all his remaining chakra to Sasuke). Sasuke gained Hagoromo's chakra, that's for sure; so Sasuke gained the Rinnegan because of Hagoromo. About Naruto's Rikudō Senjutsu, we can see that Hagoromo "summoned" the other tailed beasts besides the ones Obito sealed into Naruto (Yin-Kurama, Shukaku and Gyūki), so the Sage did help Naruto awaken the Rikudō Senjutsu.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna JOA20 19:37, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

In chapter 681, Sasuke refers to both his Rinnegan's space-time technique and Naruto's foothold (Truth-Seeking Ball) as a result of receiving the Six Paths' power. So, at least as far as Sasuke is concerned, they didn't just awaken those powers on their own.--BeyondRed (talk) 19:52, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Hagoromo's chakra amplified the powers Naruto and Sasuke already had. Sasuke had mastery over dojutsu, and thus gained the Rinnegan. Naruto had experience as a jinchuuriki and mastery over senjutsu, and thus gained the abilities of all nine tailed beasts and the Senjutsu of the Six Paths, respectively. Hagoromo's chakra can also damage a TT jinchuuriki/the TT itself (Kaguya), as seen with Sasuke and Kakashi. WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task (Talk) (Contribs) 20:01, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Sasuke has had multiple exposures to Asura's chakra. Nine tails cloak, Hashirama chakra transfer, Kabuto giving Hashi's cells. My guess is the last part sealed the deal, and Sasuke awakened it the same way Madara did: by having both Indra's and Asura's chakra, he summoned So6P's chakra (and the man himself). The ten-tails has the same chakra as the Sage. The nine beasts are the TT's chakra. So combining the chakra of all nine also brings forth his chakra (and the man himself). In this way, Naruto and Sasuke's new powers are from the Sage, but not directly. The only ones directly given to them by the sage are the Yin and Yang seals. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 20:51, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Sasuke gained the light-purple, six tomoe Rinnegan because of Hagoromo. Yes, Indra and Asura's chakras are required, but they bring forth Hagomoro's chakra. Sasuke gained the Rinnegan when Hagoromo gave the former his chakra. As for Sasuke getting Asura's chakra, the chakras of Indra and Asura are stated to move on. If Sasuke got Asura's chakra, he didn't get it from Hashirama. He could have gotten it from Naruto... but... we don't know. All we know is that the Sharingan and Hagoromo's chakra are required to bring forth the Rinnegan, at least his Rinnegan and not Kaguya's. WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task (Talk) (Contribs) 20:56, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
Madara and Hashirama don't all of a sudden stop having Indra and Asura's Chakra. It's a part of them. If chakra couldn't be in more than one person at once, it would break literally everything that happened in this war. Hashirama is still a transmigrant. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 21:17, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
He isn't, Hagoromo called him Ashura's predecessor--Elveonora (talk) 21:25, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
Hagoromo can't be Ashura's predecessor though. Ashura lived countless generations before him. Are we sure that wasn't just mistranslation?--Reliops (talk) 23:37, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

I think he meant successor. And plus, the chakra moves on, it doesn't stay in their bodies, because then they wouldn't be transmigrants. They would all be Asuras inhibitor which they're not. So Sasuke gaining the Rinnegan from Hashirama is ridiculous because:

1.You need DNA, not chakra. And we don't know if Kabuto put his cells into him. He just said it helped with healing.

And Sasuke called the rinnegan part of gaining the six paths power. As for naruto, He had the ingredients, but didn't know how to mix them, so to say. So Hagoromo "helped" both of them Riptide240 (talk) 02:12, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

Where have you been? Hagoromo himself stated that mixing Indra's and Asura's chakras bring forth his, and can grant a Sharingan user the Rinnegan. WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task (Talk) (Contribs) 02:14, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
I know that, what I meant is that its done by gaining some of their DNA. If it was just a chakra transfer Madara could've just absorbed some of Hashiramas chakra in their fight. Not biting a piece of his damn arm off like a savage Riptide240 (talk) 02:17, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
And plus, that method takes a very long time, as shown with Madara. Also, on the page it mentions that the Six Paths technique is Hagoromos technique. Since Madara more or less awakened Hagoromos rinnegan and techniques, would it make to say that the six paths technique was Hagoromos unique rinnegan thing. Because Sasuke has his unique teleportation and if he awakened the rinnegan the same way as Madara, I think he would've gotten the same thing as them Riptide240 (talk) 02:33, August 29, 2014 (UTC) Riptide240 (talk) 02:30, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
Not neccesarily, Madara's unique technique could also be Limbo, which doesn't fit any of the Six Paths. That's assuming each person's Rinnegan even has a unique power in the first place. It's unfortunate that the Rinnegan's abilities have never really been explained, so we've just seen it do various things and added them to the page as we go.--BeyondRed (talk) 03:07, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

Now, Hagoromo no doubt amplified Naruto's and Sasuke's abilities. And he may be, or may be not the last necessary ingredient for said abilities. But as of now, the article flat out states HE gave rinnegan and rikudo's senjutsu to Sasuke and Naruto, as if there weren't their own efforts, Kabuto and Obito. Does anyone really thinks he would be able to do this without previous job done by the others? He wouldn't be summoned to them in the first place! Faust-RSI (talk) 05:19, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

@Reliopns, no, he says that in the raw too. Hagoromo calls Hashirama "Ashura's predecessor" because Ashura's successor is now Naruto--Elveonora (talk) 09:50, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

Six Paths Sage Technique Section Edit

I had a question...why is Six Paths Technique written in this section...is it related or sth... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 16:06, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

uh...any1 care 2 answer... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 15:47, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

No idea why that is. Someone most likely assumed that Six Paths Sage Technique is related to Six Paths Technique of Rinnegan--Elveonora (talk) 15:51, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

How he revived the previous Kage Edit

From the previous 2 chapters it reveals that Hagoromo revived all of the previous Kage who died, but judging from there appearance in the latest chapter they were not revived by the Edo Tensei as their eyes don't have the altered sclera, so he revived them with something completely different. So should we make a note of this fact in his abilities?SageM (talk) 20:53, September 6, 2014 (UTC)SageM

I don't think he revived the previous Kage, but "merely" called their spirits... like performing the Edo Tensei but without giving them a body. Said so, I agree that this should be stated in his ability, even if I don't think he could do that in life (probably he could do that now because he is in a sort of limbo between the Pure Land and the world of the living) Gilgamesh85 (talk) 21:22, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

extracting bijus Edit

why is it written that hagoromo extracted the bijus out of the TT after kaguya's fight with team 7...all he did was summoning them back from kaguya's dimension... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 13:09, September 7, 2014 (UTC)

Some people take it that it was Hagoromo who did all the fancy stuff--Elveonora (talk) 13:18, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
Fixed.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō (talk) 14:18, September 7, 2014 (UTC)

Summoning: Pure World Reincarnation? Edit

This was shortly discussed before, but the way he brought back the previous Kage without human sacrifices needs to be mentioned and I think it's worth an own article. Opinions? Norleon (talk) 14:28, September 7, 2014 (UTC)

Yes mention, but I don't know if it needs it's own article - what would we call it anyway? --Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 14:36, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
Well, Summoning: Pure World Reincarnation could be an option I think as it's like Edo Tensei, just not as cruel. I mean, if we have fancy article names like Spear of Heaven Nine-Tails Beam...Of course, it would be listed as unnamed in the infobox. Norleon (talk) 14:43, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
I don't think it warrants its own article, at best a mention in Hagoromo's abilities section. If it gets a page, Norleon's name sounds good.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna JOA20 14:50, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
The name is senseless, simply because Edo Tensei refers to the summoning of the souls into the real world. Calling it Jodo Tensei would basically mean "killing them", lol. What Hagoromo did was Edo Tensei without the bodies. • Seelentau 愛 14:56, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
Well, was just a try after all. Norleon (talk) 14:57, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
Right, Pure World Reincarnation (浄土転生, Jōdo Tensei) actually makes no sense.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna JOA20 15:43, September 7, 2014 (UTC)

Alright, again, it was just a suggestion. We could call it "Ghost Summoning" as well, as lame as that sounds. Norleon (talk) 13:22, September 8, 2014 (UTC)

Pure World Reincarnation would be the most amusing. But Pure World Summoning or something would work too.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō (talk) 13:24, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
So can I create it? Norleon (talk) 13:25, September 8, 2014 (UTC)

I don't really see why not just make it correctly and don't leave to much work for others to clean up after. Munchvtec (talk) 13:27, September 8, 2014 (UTC)

While we're at it, we need to list Hagoromo and all generations of five Kage as users of the Summoning Technique, since they all used it together to bring Naruto and crew back from Kaguya's worlds. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 14:33, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
Why they weren't added a week ago is odd.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō (talk) 14:38, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
I was wondering if it counted so I never bothered to push the issue of adding them. Still not too keen on the article though.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 14:39, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
L Agreed. I'll rectify this. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 14:41, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
I thought the Summoning was done in a similar way as it was done with Edo Tensei (Pakura and Gari for example weren't listed there too). But oh well, why not...
To start, I will try to create the article (yes Munchvtec, as correctly as I can) and we can then further discuss if it's necessary or not. Norleon (talk) 15:17, September 8, 2014 (UTC)

The jutsu Edo Tensei is called Edo Tensei because it reincarnates someone into the unpure world, the real world. Calling what Hagoromo did Jodo Tensei does not make any sense, since he did not reincarnate someone into the pure world.Seelentau 愛 15:27, September 8, 2014 (UTC)

This. Pure World Reincarnation would equal killing someone in the impure land, thus "summoning" him or her to the afterlife xD--Elveonora (talk) 15:32, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, and like I said, I won't use that name. It was just a proposal. Norleon (talk) 15:33, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
I know, but somehow, Ultimate3 didn't read what I wrote earlier and I wanted to make clear how absolutely retarded that name would be, hence the boldness. • Seelentau 愛 15:34, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
I did read it. I said Pure World Reincarnation would be the most amusing, not a good choice.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō (talk) 15:47, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
You said it would work, but it doesn't. Just wanted to make that clear. Or do I need manga evidence? :O • Seelentau 愛 15:51, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
So i did. I meant "Pure World Reincarnation would be most amusing, but Pure World Summoning or something would work."--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō (talk) 15:55, September 8, 2014 (UTC)

Calm down. The name won't be used. I apology for bringing it up. Norleon (talk) 15:56, September 8, 2014 (UTC)

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