Talk:Dust Release

Uhhhh

How in the heck is dust an element, and why is it different than plain old sand? lol--SkyFlicker (talk) 12:29, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

I would guess that the difference is that dust is smaller. Other then tat, I have o idea. Although the most logical guess would be that dust is earth and wind. --Rikudou Geass (talk) 22:38, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

I second your logical guess :) T0rw0ri (talk) 11:23, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Yep, it islogic that dust = earth + wind. 87.244.196.158 (talk) 19:26, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

If it is molecular based, earth and lightning is more reasonable. 207.6.161.131 (talk) 21:05, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

All of Gaara's current "sand techniques" are as a result of his ability to utilise Wind Release, thus they are essentially Wind Release techniques. This means that sand is NOT an element, and besides Gaara, Sasori has used a "sand technique" before: "Sand Shadow Clone Technique". "Sand tecniques" focus on overwhelming and crushing the opponent as well as protecting the user... Onoki's Dust Release, on the other hand, is an advanced element and is believed to be a combination of Earth element and another unknown element, it is also Kekkei Genkai and Onoki is the only person to have been seen using it. Dust Release techniques allow the user to manipulate molecules, giving them the ability to turn anything into molecule-sized dust...Dust seams to be a genetic technique, while sand is the result of the one-tailed beast.--Imhungry4444 (talk) 05:27, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

1) Sasori doing it was anime only 2) Read the chapter, Dust release is a 3 way combination, Wind, Earth, and Fire, called a Bloodline Expansion/Kekkei Dota 3) Gaara just pours his chakra into the sand like how Sai pours his chakra into his ink.Umishiru (talk) 06:24, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

Dust=Earth + Wind

Isn't it obvious? All the other elements make up other advanced natures except for lightning and dust cant be made of earth and lightning--Moiz1224 (talk) 04:56, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

But since this isn't a forum, we won't ad speculations and will wait for the series to explain. Jacce | Talk 05:41, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

But we also aren't sure if water+lightning=storm, yet we have that listed on it's page don't we?--76.127.68.140 (talk) 01:04, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

We have a lot more evidence supporting Water + Lightning = Storm then we do supporting Earth + Wind = Dust. --ShounenSuki ^{(talk | contribs)} 01:10, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

And you don' know fire+lightning=blaze. I mean whos the idiot who put that up. It even says in the series blaze is Amatarasu+shape transformation.

• It's an advanced nature, and if you actually took the time to understand that, you'd know we have to point that out, Blaze is an unique case, and there's even the question mark, saying it's not something certain. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:18, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

What about Wind+Earth=Diamond Dust or even glass? Of course this is fan idea but it would make some sense as Diamond being from the earth but yet sharp like wind.99.237.250.157 (talk) 20:47, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

This is a page on Dust Release. Are you saying Dust is Earth + Lightning?--GoDai (talk) 02:42, March 25, 2010 (UTC)

Dust release is definitely combination between earth and wind. —This unsigned comment was made by 114.79.8.79 (talk • contribs) .

Until the Tsuchikage uses Wind Release or there' an official release from Kishimoto then it'll remain as earth + an unknown nature transformation--Cerez365 (talk) 12:18, January 18, 2011 (UTC)

the new chapter comfirms,what you thought was definatly earth and wind,actually has fire included,go figure. 68.88.237.216 (talk) 17:51, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

Jinton

Why is this and Swift Release listed as Jinton Seriously go check. Please Somebody fix this Movie Nature Calamity--Nintendo-Fan (talk) 07:06, October 18, 2009 (UTC)Nintendo-Fan

Different words can have the same pronunciation, I was checking my cousin's English-Japanese dictionary the other day (she's thinking about learning Japanese) and saw that "Kami" can mean "God", "hair" and "paper". Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 13:40, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

What+what=what

How do we know dust release is(part)earth I don't see it being stated in the manga or that it capable of pulverising anything it touches into molecule-sized dust. If its true where is the proof it read the manga chapters and I don't see any proof of alot of things on this page.--Nintendo-Fan (talk) 20:59, November 29, 2009 (UTC)Nintendo-Fan

We know it is part Earth Release, because Earth is the only other nature the Tsuchikage showed and it makes perfect sense. We also know it pulverises whatever it touches because the Tsuchikage said so after he used his technique on Sasuke.

If you find something without proof and you think is wrong, note it on the talkpage of the article in question. It can only make the wiki better. --ShounenSuki ^{(talk | contribs)} 21:25, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

But technically he never stated that it is part earth. I admit it does make sense, but I don't think putting it there before its comfirmed is a good idea, and its also speculative. At least wait until they comfirm that its part earth--Nintendo-Fan (talk) 23:20, November 29, 2009 (UTC)Nintendo-Fan

We use all information available to us, including common sense and logical reasoning. However, I do agree that there is a small chance it might not be Earth-related. I'll rephrase the article to reflect this uncertainty. --ShounenSuki ^{(talk | contribs)} 23:29, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

Thank You--Nintendo-Fan (talk) 00:11, November 30, 2009 (UTC)Nintendo-Fan

Ok, please stop creating new sections with the same name, keep everything under the same topic. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:12, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

Abilities

Where does it say that it gives the user to manipulate molecules? --Enoki911 (talk) 05:01, December 15, 2009 (UTC)Enoki911

Dust is typically that size. Simant (talk) 05:03, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

I thought that dust was bigger than that, but I guess I'm wrong... --Enoki911 (talk) 05:07, December 15, 2009 (UTC)Enoki911

Dust comes in a variety of sizes. Also, this particular tidbit is from the second fan book. ~SnapperTo 05:16, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

Thanks --Enoki911 (talk) 07:49, December 15, 2009 (UTC)Enoki911

Wait, we don't officially know the abilities of dust release. Just because a dust release jutsu was used, it doesnt necessarily mean all dust release jutsu are like that. I think all the abilities listed on the Dust Release page should be speculation. --75.2.217.57 (talk) 02:39, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

The Second Fanbook gives a brief explanation of the abilities of Dust Release: "The Tsuchikage is a user of 'Dust Release,' which manipulates molecules. This technique that once shook the Shinobi World is still in good health!!" (「土影は、分子を操る"塵遁"の使い手。かつて忍界を震撼させた術は健在だッ!!」). --ShounenSuki ^{(talk | contribs)} 10:43, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

You may have heard me say this before somewhere else, but the names of Advanced Natures are usually rather symbolic, and not literal. Their names are designed to be traditional, while their effects are considerably different. So in this case, Dust Release doesn't exactly manipulate dust, it manipulates molecules. --GoDai (talk) 07:38, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

'Molecules' isn't a size anyway. Everything's made up of molecules, and polymers can become huge. I suspect what it means is if there's not a lot of dust around, it'll still grab 'small pieces of Earth' from surrounding material. ZeroSD (talk) 23:11, March 25, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe it is misnamed by the shinobi themselves? If this jutsu disrupts molecular bonds (and that would imply lightning justu due to electrons but lets save that for another section) and breaks it up, would it not look like it had broken into dust to the observor if they knew nothing about physics? Naruto science is a tad haphazard after all, with the bulk being orientated around combat (radios, poisons, knowledge of cells) but where do they show knowledge of the atom? It would not help them in combat unless they were aware they could make atom bombs (and they have not which implies it is at least pre-1930ish compared to us). Even if they did know about atoms KNOW though, back when he was young it would still look like it broke down into dust, and the name probably caught on and no one felt like changing it (what would you call it, if you had the gall to say that to a kage?). Thomas Finlayson (talk) 01:39, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

Well, if you see my "Elements and recomposition" theory on User Talk: Omnibender's wall, you will see that Dust and Lightning are related. I think Dust Release just manipulates molecules broken off surrounding matter, but in a way different from other natures. One of my guesses would be that it can't put molecules back together to form complicated constructs. Also, it said molecules, suggesting it can't break molecules into ions and /or atoms. I think the atom bombs are just matter decided by the plot. Masashi Kishimoto already humbly mentioned he is not an expert on physics. --GoDai (talk) 02:03, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

The atom bomb part was meant as comparison of their physics to put into perspective how relatively uneducated they are on it, and how they could have misnamed the jutsu believing that it turned items into dust as opposed to severing the molecular bonds. You are correct that this kind of detail was not mentionned by Kishimoto, but ions and atoms are the build-up of molecules so they would have to be related; plus as you mentionned he is not an expert on physics so confusion on his part is to be expected. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 20:41, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

This is not a misnomer. This is dissatisfaction with the translation as "dust". ~SnapperTo 07:38, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I am saying that the Shinobi themselves misnamed this jutsu. And you are saying that we have mistranslated what was written down, right? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 20:53, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

It might be worth noting that there is a Japanese-Buddhist term referring to the smallest possible unit of matter: 微塵 (mijin, literally meaning: minute dust). This word is used in terms such as "chopping something into fine pieces" (微塵切り, mijingiri). The kanji for dust itself has an additional meaning of "something extremely small" and is an archaic way of writing 10^-9. By the way, 10^-9 metre would be a nanometre. That is, molecule-size.

In other words, Dust Release is in no way a misnomer. It fits perfectly. --ShounenSuki ^{(talk | contribs)} 01:19, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

... So no, I was not saying it was a mistranslation. I was saying you want "10^-9 Release". A matter of word choice, not accuracy. ~SnapperTo 01:59, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough, thank you. You may want to add this information though. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:08, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Are we even sure Jinton is a Kekkei Genkai? Recently, Deidara refers to his jutsu as Bakuton and they are all hijutsu. So is there something other than the name that we are basing the assumption on? --Dragonus Nesha

There is evidence of Deidara's jutsu being hiden, unlike the Tsuchikage's. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:05, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

But is there evidence for Jinton being a Kekkei Genkai, other than the name? --Dragonus Nesha

Its a Kekkeri Genkai till said other wise at it was said that Element fusions(which the -ton donates and its not one of the 5 basic ones). Kisame said they are rarely seen outside Kekkei Genkai and the outside methods of gaining have been shown only to be through Tailed Beast or dna transfusion. Kishi hasn't hinted at either for Onoki.Umishiru (talk) 00:07, November 18, 2010 (UTC)

Be cautious here but it maybe possible that this Explosion Release is in fact a Kekkei Genkai and the original user died. They saved his cells or studied his/her body and learned how to replicate it. Do to its potential power made it a hijutsu of the Village keeping the details of how to gain it or whatever under lock and key and only Deidara is known to have gained it since then. Thats just speculation.Umishiru (talk) 00:07, November 18, 2010 (UTC)

OK, really? I'd guess that it's called dust release because it pulverizes everything into dust, so how did they mis-name it? And to the person/s earlier, dust being actually made of molecules itself, is bigger than a molecule. That last statement about blast element is weirdly speculative, and frankly I'm even cautious about calling dieadra a blast element user. I don't know why hanzo did, if he even did because I've seen a few different translations of that. But this tech certainly wasn't mis-named. You're just thinking of it from a totally how it works prospective instead of a what it does one. 98.71.99.102 (talk) 11:03, April 22, 2011 (UTC)miah

Advanced Element?

I know it sounds more logical that Dust is Earth + Wind. But can we be certain every of these advanced elements is made that way???

We know Blaze Release is not a mix between Fire and Lightning, but Sasuke who controls his amaterasu. And some kekkei genkais are a product of special abilities (Kimimaro's bones, Neji's byakugan) how can we be sure, every special elemental jutsus are a mix of chakras?

Sidenote: I don't think we should count movies and filler acts chakras, jutsus, etc. as cannon. - KenjiNitari.

Hmm well, there are three ideas for Blaze, although there are equally good arguments for all of them:

1. Sasuke was only boasting, comparing this "Amaterasu control" to an actual element.

2. Blaze is Fire+Yin, using the Yin's "creation of form" to turn Amaterasu, which is Fire (Third Databook says it is Fire Release), into different shapes. The Uchiha Clan Ancestor was mentioned to have inherited the Sage's spiritual energy (which would give him a "Yin affinity"), and the Uchiha use Fire, so this would make lots of sense. Normal Shape Transformation might not be enough to control Amaterasu.

3. Blaze is Fire+Lightning. If Amaterasu is hot as the sun, it means it is ionized (divided into charges). Lightning could take advantage of this and control Amaterasu with its movement, making it into things like spikes (like how Lightning is forked; Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi). It's not that weird nothing about Amaterasu besides its shape was changed, as Ice is frozen Water, Lava is molten Earth, Storm is fluid Lightning, Dust looks like a solid Wind, etc. In this case, Blaze would be a forked Fire.

Also, beause it has "遁; ton" on it, we consider it some kind of combination because only five basic natures (seven if counting Yin Release and Yang Release) were mentioned, and it was specifically mentioned every other element was formed from two or more simultaneous Nature Transformations. So that's what we go with so far, but who knows, we don't have info yet, really. --GoDai (talk) 10:08, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

Is it safe to say?

Is it safe to say that dust and sand are the same thing. I think this recent manga just fortified that theory in the case of Mu and his "sensor sand". The reason i think this is cuz ppl say that the sand is only a power given to gaara by the 1 tailed beast. But the 1 tails is the wind demon, and gaara has natural earth manipulation. earth then wind chakra should make dust, and in his situation it makes "sand". So i think they are the same Side note: has gaara ever said "sand release" or "sand style"? If he hasn't then that should lean towards this also. Dj q-pid (talk) 01:34, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Apart from me getting confused after you first sentence...No that's speculation so it's not safe to say. The sand belonged to Gaara as well...i think o.o--Cerez365 (talk) 01:37, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

What you said is completely wrong as far as we know Dj q-pid. Sand control is an ability Gaara has solely because he was the Shukaku's jinchūriki, the Third Kazekage even used Iron Sand to emulate it after studying a previous host. Shukaku being wind natured changes nothing, and as far as we know, sand falls under wind, because there is a technique Gaara used which is explicitly called a Wind Release, yet it uses sand. Gaara has never ever shown or mentioned to be earth natured. The only thing remotely related to earth ever said relating to Gaara is that he can use his own sand to make more sand by grinding rocks with it, which was explained during his fight against Kimimaro. No, the term Sand Release has never been used anywhere in manga, anime, OVAs, movies, games or even in the TCG. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:06, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Jintons Elements Revealed Sadly

It appears 525 listed the elements that made up Jinton to be Fire Earth, AND Wind... crap... --Dragon Hacker (talk) 05:23, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

Kishi just opened the flood gates for more elements. Here come the fanfiction. Oh lord. On a side note, it makes me wonder if there is any blood relation between the Second and Third Tsuchikage.Umishiru (talk) 06:26, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

I don't know how much more epileptic my element theories can go. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:06, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

Mine gave out after this last seizure =_= --Cerez365 (talk) 14:09, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

I looked at 525 and it didn't state anywhere that Jinton is made of all three elements. The only things mentioned were:

A: Muu can combine all three elements and, B: Muu taught Onoki the Dust element.

It was never stated or even implied that Jinton is made of all three. Going by this, it is safer to go by the status-quo and assume it is only made of two elemetns (Wind and Earth). This would also be more logical since Dust and Fire don't really have anything to do with each other. HakuGaara (talk) 02:18, July 22, 2011 (UTC)

Implication (The image of Mū)

Statement --Cerez₃₆₅™ 02:49, July 22, 2011 (UTC)

That doesn't 'implicate' anything. All it says is A: Both Onoki and Muu can combine three elements instead of just two and B: That they can both use the Dust element. Nothing is said about the Dust element being a combination of all three elements nor would it make any sense since Fire and Dust have nothing to do with each other. To assume otherwise is simply jumping to conclusions.HakuGaara (talk) 03:13, July 22, 2011 (UTC)

Friend, please to tell me why in God's name would they be talking about dust release and three base elements at the same point in time if they had nothing to do with each other? --Cerez₃₆₅™ 03:20, July 22, 2011 (UTC)

Obviously because Dust element and being able to combine three elements are both dangerous abilities. They are talking about Muu after all so it's only natural for them to talk about his various abilities. On top of that Dust is not created by Fire. All the other Bloodline elements logically follow their base elements so why would this one be any different???HakuGaara (talk) 04:04, July 22, 2011 (UTC)

Either you're being a troll or you have the worst reading comprehension. This shouldn't even be up for discussion. —ShounenSuki ^{(talk | contribs | translations)} 10:52, July 22, 2011 (UTC)

So because I don't go ahead and assume things that have no evidence or logical basis to back them up, this somehow makes me a "troll" or someone with bad reading comprehension? What kind of nonsensical, back-asswards logic is that???? Do you even know what forum trolls or reading comprehension actually are?????HakuGaara (talk) 05:48, July 23, 2011 (UTC)

Friend, if you read those two links I posted and still think that it's a baseless assumption then you have a problem. Think about it, if this really was as much of an issue as you think it is, why haven't more people of higher logic like yourself, brought up this issue Or even agreed with you? Ask yourself "why am I the only one?"--Cerez₃₆₅™ 05:58, July 23, 2011 (UTC)

So going by your 'logic' any person who first brings something up that hasn't been brought up before are automatically wrong even if logic supports their argument? Sorry but not only is that clearly wrong but you're just using that as a cop out because you have no way of backing up your own argument. I'm sure I'm not the only one who realized that Jinton being made of Earth, Wind and Fire is A: Illogical, B: Inconsistent with the story and C: Has no evidence to back it up. Unless you can prove otherwise than you've got nothing.HakuGaara (talk) 03:37, July 25, 2011 (UTC)

No, he's saying that when you are the first to think of something, you might want to be absolutely sure you didn't make a mistake yourself, rather than assuming it was everyone else who made the mistake.

From chapter 525:

"He has the ability to combine the three natures of Wind, Earth, and Fire all at once" (「風土火の性質三つを一度に合わせることできる…」, "Kaze–Tsuchi–Hi no seishitsu mittsu ni awaseru koto dekiru…").

It doesn't get any clearer than this. Jinton is made up of Earth, Wind, and Fire, no doubt about it. —ShounenSuki ^{(talk | contribs | translations)} 06:46, July 25, 2011 (UTC)

Any clearer? Your example above doesn't even mention Dust element! All it says is that he can combine all three elements. It doesn't say anything about the combination being called Jinton. Displaying the original Japanese text and the accompanying romanized version doesn't change anything.HakuGaara (talk) 19:19, July 26, 2011 (UTC)

Those three natures making dust, while not my first thought when Dust Release was introduced, isn't illogical. If you burn earth up and then blow at what remains, what is that? Dust. Simple as that. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 11:59, July 25, 2011 (UTC)

That's ash, not dust. Dust is created when solids (Earth) are naturally eroded by the wind/air. Fire has nothing to do with it.HakuGaara (talk) 19:19, July 26, 2011 (UTC)

would you care to explain storm release now? Any way that Kishimoto wants create an element he can. because it's his work. This shouldn't even be an issue as all indications points to what you see in the article if you cannot see that from those two pages, then we can't help you.--Cerez₃₆₅™ 19:34, July 26, 2011 (UTC)

Storm release makes perfect sense. Storms are made from strong winds (Wind) and rain (Water). Presto. All of the bloodline elements make sense, including Jinton (Wind and Earth). It's not Kishi's fault that you guys added Fire for no reason aside from that you can't read. HakuGaara (talk) 03:41, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

Your stubbornness in refusing to see and acknowledge what's right in front of you is astounding. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:44, July 26, 2011 (UTC)

It looks like you guys need a crash course in reading comprehension:

Direct statement: "Dust element is created by combining Earth, Fire and Wind" - Here the sentence directly states that the combination of the three elements is needed for Jinton.

Implied statement (direct): "Muu and I are only the only ones who can use Jinton, since we're the only ones that can combine three elements" - Here the sentence directly implies that the combination of three elements is needed for Jinton.

Implied statement (indirect): "How can you use Jinton? I thought I was the only one with a bloodline expansion!!" - Here the sentences indirectly implies (but implies nonetheless) that one needs to combine three elements to be able to use Jinton.

Non-implied statement: "He has the power to combine elements of Earth, Wind and Fire....my former master, the man who passed down to me the secrets of dust-element techniques." - Here the sentence doesn't state or imply at all that Jinton and combining Earth, Wind and Fire have anything in common with each other aside from Muu and Onoki.

Recap: 1: Jinton using three elements was never stated or implied. 2: Fire has nothing to do with Dust. 3: All other revealed bloodline elements combine only two elements (including those used by Mei, who also has three elemental natures). Conclusion: Jinton is made of Earth and Wind. HakuGaara (talk) 03:41, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

Dust Release might not have been mentioned in the text I quoted, but it was directly after. Also, the combination of elements makes prefect sense, really:

• Earth because it manipulates solid matter.
• Fire because heat causes matter to lose the bonds that holds its molecules together, causing it to evaporate.
• Wind because winds can cut the remaining atomic bonds, causing destruction at the atomic level.

There is absolutely nothing that throws any amount of doubt on what Dust Release is. —ShounenSuki ^{(talk | contribs | translations)} 23:17, July 26, 2011 (UTC)

Guess what? You can get Dust just fine by only using Earth and Wind. Adding Fire will only succeed in burning away the dust, defeating the purpose. Fire doesn't create Dust. It's a simple fact. HakuGaara (talk) 03:41, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

No offense to Shounen, Omni or Cerez, but wouldn't the most obvious thing to point out be that, even assuming you got it wrong by some miracle or trolldom, the existence of the term Kekkei tōta or bloodline expansion, something that's never appeared in the text before and yet completey impossible to mistake for the usual kekkei genkai or bloodline limit imply that there is something different. To follow a train of natural logic, It is noted Muu can combine the three elements fire, earth and wind. Now admittedly without directly saying it this could easily imply something like Mei the Mizukage and her two bloodlines. Therefore leaving the idea that Dust is only one of these consisting of two elements. So where does this term bloodline expansion come from? What is it being used in reference to? The only other subject matter is the combining of these elements and the Dust release. Bloodline expansion - Earth, Wind and Fire - Dust Release... It is the only explanation that explains the existence of the term kekkei tota. There is no logical argument for its existence besides this and so far I've seen no evidence to exclude it as part of the subject matter. Sounless HakuGaara can come up with a reason for this term existing, all arguments against pretty much fall flat, don't they? --217.42.105.9 (talk) 02:54, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

^^^^ That comment was me, stupid cmputer logged me out --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 03:00, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

The reason the term exists is because Kishi is pointing out that Onoki and Muu are the only known shinobi who can combine three elements (As opposed to just being able to use three separate elements). Jinton is also mentioned because that is the element that Muu taught Onoki (as opposed to Lava and Scorch, which Onoki may or may not even know how to use). HakuGaara (talk) 03:41, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't really make sense of why revealing the term kekkei tota and not refer it to Dust Release especially because (among other things) of the references made of it's destructive powers and of how only a Dust Release user can defeat a Dust Release user...it seems to further imply that this is not a simple kekkei genkai but something more advanced. Darksusanoo (talk) 03:38, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

And yet the Nidaime Mizukage did just that. HakuGaara (talk) 03:44, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

At the cost of getting killed as well Darksusanoo (talk) 03:50, July 27, 2011 (UTC)