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== Kabuto ==
 
== Kabuto ==
   
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There appears to be some confusion if they originate from the Jubi or Madara and later Obito made them using Outer Path.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:09, May 8, 2013 (UTC)
 
There appears to be some confusion if they originate from the Jubi or Madara and later Obito made them using Outer Path.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:09, May 8, 2013 (UTC)
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:Too much confusion right now, i believe this black metal (Chakra Receivers) we see going out from Obito's body has nothing to do with the black roots, this is not created by Madara's will at all, and i believe it is only a YYR technique, this has nothing to do with WR, Nagato didn't had WR. Again, everyone is very confused here .[[User:Dan.Faulkner|Dan.Faulkner]] ([[User talk:Dan.Faulkner|talk]]) 01:14, July 4, 2013 (UTC)
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== Red reflection ==
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So, I see that the red reflection trivia point was removed. I do recall that, having added it myself, but I'm too lazy to look it up again. I'm certain it happened during Naruto vs Pain, possibly around the time Hinata intervened. If anyone wants to check. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 22:25, July 21, 2013 (UTC)
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==Name==
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It was named in Naruto Shippūden: Shinobi Rumble, Kokushin (Black Needle). Should we mention about it or name it like that ?--[[User:Salamancc|Salamancc]] ([[User talk:Salamancc|talk]]) 23:28, July 21, 2013 (UTC)
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:Already is mentioned, check "In Other Media" section. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 20:23, July 23, 2013 (UTC)
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I think, we should rename this page Black Needle, it was named in the games.--[[User:Salamancc|Salamancc]] ([[User talk:Salamancc|talk]]) 00:41, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
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== Separate by Users ==
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Seeing as how it's difficult to say what the differences are between the receivers and the blades (assuming there even are any) and it is also tough to call where the technique creating these black rods ends and the usage of them as tools begins, might it be better to divide the article into sections for each user and explain how they utilised the black material, rather than by divide them by "type" (stakes, rods, etc.)?--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 17:55, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
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:The main problem with this idea is that there would be tons of repetition in each user section. [[User_Talk:Joshbl56|<span style="color:#3EB489;">Joshbl</span>]][[User:Joshbl56|<span style="color:#4BD8A5;">56</span>]] 01:06, August 19, 2013 (UTC)
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::The main information we know would be under usage. The user sections would be for details and specific uses (Obito's stakes and chakra chains, for example).--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 01:34, August 19, 2013 (UTC)
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== Blood ==
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Aren't we going to include that it was stated by Kishimoto that these things were created by mixing Nagato's Chakra and his blood (which obviously contradicts with what we know now)? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 00:27, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
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:Question...where did you found that bit of information? [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 00:30, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
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::I never did, I just read it on another talk page, where it was stated that Kishimoto said so in one of the author comments at the beginning of each WSJ, but I don't have more information about that. If someone had access to all WSJ issues, he could look it up, since but I'm not able to do that. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 00:35, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
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:::Hum...well maybe we should wait for someone to bring some link with that information or something...unless he can get details, this kind of hear-say can create a lot of confusion. Opinions? [[User:Darksusanoo|Darksusanoo]] ([[User talk:Darksusanoo|talk]]) 00:38, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
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::::I recall reading and commenting on that too once, maybe even removing the trivia when the source wasn't available. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 00:40, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
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I have a personal interest in solving this topic, but there's almost no way to confirm or deny this, unless someone actually owns the WSJ issue. But I don't even know when exactly this was said, so I can't search for the respective WSJ... can someone find the discussion where this was said? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 12:38, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
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:Well, that didn't take long: [[Talk:Chakra Disruption Blades#Chakra Blades]]. Now where to find chapter 438 and the WSJ it was published in...? It's four years old, though^^' [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 12:46, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
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One would have thought that something as important had to have made its way into the manga or databooks, bad Kishi. Have you tried googling "chakra receivers blood" or something like that?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:31, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
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:Yeah, the first result was this talk page (or the other one) [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 13:44, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
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::I think it may be false, I mean, what a nonsense... did you not see the poor old guy? He surely looked malnourished, spilling his own blood to make sticks doesn't sound exactly like something one would do with death on his tongue. But perhaps he did that for the means of diabetes diagnosis... after all, being connected to a plant must have given him overdose of sugars and even induce madness.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:06, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
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:::I created a thread over at mangahelpers, maybe someone will answer... [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 15:05, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
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Okay, what I gathered so far is that the related WSJ issue was published on 9th March 2009 +- one week. Furthermore, I found [http://forum.leafninja.com/single/?p=8044503&t=331751 this] spoiler which was labelled as ''pending'', but we know better. This sentence is the important one:<br />
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ナルトの動きを止めていた黒棒は長門のチャクラを練りこんだ自らの血を材料に形を維持している<br />
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It says ''The black rods (黒棒, Kokubō) which stopped Naruto's movement are Nagato's Chakra...'', the rest is kinda complicated to translate. However, would that suffice as proof? I'm searching for a page where I can get the whole issue next. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 10:34, December 19, 2013 (UTC)
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You mean if it's pending status suffice as proof? Dunno, we could always use a warning template. But from what you have translated so far, I fail to see blood mentioned in there :- /--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:38, December 19, 2013 (UTC)
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:血 is the Kanji for blood, but I translated only the part until チャクラ, everything after that comes later, when I can concentrate on it better. Eh, whatever. I actually talked to a raw-provider-group and they told me they'd ask their Japanese friends if they could get their hands on a copy of that issue. So maybe we'll have a scan of the raw page soon and I can double-check the above sentence. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 14:50, December 19, 2013 (UTC)
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Well, if that proves to be correct, then Nagato must have had excessive amounts of iron in his blood. Why didn't he think of becoming a blacksmith is what I wonder tho. Joking aside, thank you for your efforts pal--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:06, December 19, 2013 (UTC)
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Okay, so I got help from a fellow translator and a possible translation for that sentence is ''The black rods (''黒棒'', Kokubō) which stopped Naruto's movement are kneaded with Nagato's Chakra and held in form by the components of his own blood.'' [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 12:13, December 21, 2013 (UTC)
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:Well, if you find a good way to incorporate that to the article, go for it.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:47, December 21, 2013 (UTC)
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== The stakes ==
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B mentioned the stakes had curse marks. Was there already a discussion on this? And I don't remember this in the manga. --[[User:OmegaRasengan|OmegaRasengan]] ([[User talk:OmegaRasengan|talk]]) 16:56, January 9, 2014 (UTC)
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I'd also like to know this??? and I don't think there's been a discussion on this yet.[[User:Munchvtec|Munchvtec]] ([[User talk:Munchvtec|talk]]) 16:58, January 9, 2014 (UTC)munchvtec
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[[Talk:Demonic_Statue_Chains#Juinjutsu|There has]]. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 17:21, January 9, 2014 (UTC)
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== Outer Path ==
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Can I get a source for the Outer Path being the origin for this technique? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 18:23, January 11, 2014 (UTC)
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:Think it was an offshoot of the Will Materialization thing.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 19:00, January 11, 2014 (UTC)
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::It doesn't say origin, only that the whole will control thingy is done with Rinnegan's Outer Path.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:06, January 11, 2014 (UTC)
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:::It says "This ability, used by Rinnegan users through the Outer Path, creates multi-purpose black rods", meaning "the jutsu to create the rods is used through the outer path". But that was never said, if I remember correctly. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 19:32, January 11, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Yes, that never was said, so it is an assumption/speculation. But Outer Path is still needed to use the rods, so it being a parent isn't wrong. There's lots of conflicting and vague information about the origins of the rods.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:34, January 11, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::I wished they just stayed Pain's thing...--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 22:09, January 11, 2014 (UTC)
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::::::And I wish Kishi would realize that we aren't detectives paid to glue all the clues together to make any sense of it. Databook 4 nowhere, check, anime Soundtrack 3 nowhere, check. They are like: "shit will be ending soon, so we can afford to be lazy since once it's over, they gonna forget anyway while we be grabbin' the cash"--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:59, January 11, 2014 (UTC)
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If my memory serves me correctly, I recall this ability was accredited to the Outer Path, due to it being in relation to the Gedo Mazo statue. (Even I, the creator of this page, has a vague recollection of the events leading to it.)--[[File: Senju_Symbol.svg|20px]]'''KotoSenju''' ''('''OldUser:'''JaZZBaND)''-[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|Contributions]] 00:32, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
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I'm re-writing the article in the German wiki, trying to explain everything as good as possible. That's why I need to know when this was mentioned. When I finished the article, I can probably explain it to you guys, too. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 15:20, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
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:Well, let's just hope the explanation isn't just opinionated :-/ The Outer Path is a leftover from those who were so fond of the notion of it being a Rinnegan thing.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 16:24, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
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::Didn't Konan say Outer Path was Rinnegan.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 17:14, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
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:::Yes, Outer Path seems to be the default/main/true Rinnegan power, but where is evidence for the rods to have come from a Rinnegan tech? They are used with Outer Path, doesn't necessarily mean they are made with it--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 18:12, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Ah, I see. Again I think that was again part of the overall Will Materialzation/Outer Path/Chakra Rods discussion. it was long and screwy and it had a ripple effect over what, three or four, articles.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 20:11, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
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Shinju/Gedo Statue being the origin has always made the most sense to me, but that doesn't appear to be the case. Madara's rods at least are his will turned mass for sure, but is it true for Obito and Nagato as well? Nagato could apparently create them too from his body, with the whole "made of chakra and blood" thing, it's good for headaches.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 20:20, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
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mh, I haven't finished the article yet (gonna do that tomorrow at "work"), but let's talk about the origins:
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:The first time they could be seen timeline-wise was when Obito snapped. We know Madara somehow implanted them, but we don't know how exactly. '''What's important is that they appeared only where Hashi's cells were, not on Obito's own body'''.
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:The second time is when Madara was actually seen creating a black rod. He stated that it's his physical will and that they're somehow connected to the six paths technique. '''Again, they're created out of Hashi's cells'''.
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:The third time is when Obito summoned the statue. Here is the problem. We don't know why the rod could be created without Hashi's cells. I thought that it could've to do with Nagato being an Uzumaki-Senju, but that doesn't explain how the rod can come out somewhere else than Hashi's cells.
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::Personally, I don't think Nagato created the rods by himself. I think it was somehow Obito's doing and he was the one who provided Nagato with the rods for the corpses (see point 2). I will ignore the blood-issue, because that's as uncanon as it can be.
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:After all the Pain stuff ended, the rods come back with Madara. Again, '''he created rods from Obito's cell body-part. Since they're more than the last time, I conclude that they weren't "stored" there, but are actually created from Madara's will and Hashi's cells (or so)'''. May it as it be, Hashi's cells play a big role in this whole issue.
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:The latest time the rods were created was when Obito attacked Kakashi '''(they came from his right hand, his Hashi-hand)''' and when Madara attacked Hashirama himself. Here is another problem: how could Madara create the rods out of his right hand when there are no Hashi cells? This could be because he had Hashi's cells implanted by Kabuto, but on a better level than Obito. You could say that while Obito is part Uchiha and part Senju, Madara is both Uchiha and Senju at the same time.
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That said, the easiest way to resolve this would be Yin Yang Release. We have Madara's will (Yin) and Hashi's cells (Yang) and the rods are basically the embodiment of YYR. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 21:26, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
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:Wait wait wait wait. How are we assuming Hashirama cells lead to black rod creation?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 21:37, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
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::Like I know he said the rod he created was made of his will, but when did he say "also this is hashirama cell made"?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 21:39, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
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:::He didn't say that, but as you can see from the bolded parts, Hashi's cells where connected to almost every creation of the rods. In fact, the rods came only once out of something else than Hashi's cells. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 21:51, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
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::::But couldn't it be equally justified that they came out not because of Hashirama's cells but Madara's will? I mean, he did make the Zetsu parts that is half of Tobi's body in the first place. Same way Pain could make rods, he wills them to be and they be.
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::::This is starting to sound like a familiar discussion...are we getting sidetracked?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 22:10, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::I think that's a mistake on my side: I meant the rods came out of Hashirama's cell tissue and nowhere else (except for the statue's navel), that's why I strongly believe that Hashirama's cells are connected to the creation of the rods. But they did not come out "because" of Madara's will, but "as" Madara's will, just in physical form. But for his will to take form, he needs something physical: Hashirama's cells. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 22:15, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
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Makes sense, I guess. I mentioned it before that Hash might have something to do with it. It could also explain why Gedo Statue had them in its novel, it was sitting on top of Hash Flower, it came from Hash Clone and pierced it perhaps, in order to allow Madara control it? ._. Also another Hash connection is Black Zetsu, which is in fact White Zetsu reject (Hash cells) coated in... will.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 01:41, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
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:Since Kishi had the statue appear before Madara created the rod, it could simply be a retcon. I don't want to denounce it as such, but I can't think of any other reason why the rod came out of the statue's navel. And yes, Black Zetsu is a will-coated White Zetsu, but I'm not sure how Madara could give his will the physical form of a coat without having something to form the coat out of... furthermore, if the stakes are made of Hashi's cells, then why didn't they react to Naruto's yang chakra? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 10:37, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
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Well, as I thought, your proposal even if sensible is still opinionated, considering the other folk may interpret what has been presented differently. For all we know, all Hash-Black Rod related instances are just a coincidence/unrelated occurrence. Last time I remember, I think it was Cerez who said that the best course of action is to just write up all there is to know without actually giving a forced explanation, leaving it vague for personal interpretation and it had been done, but for some reason the Outer Path has stayed there... so how about we remove that and leave the rest of the article be as is?
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But there indeed seem to be some connection to the Gedo Statue, those Edo Jinchuuriki pierced with the rods were bind to it somehow and the chains appear to be Outer Path related, so perhaps that's where it comes from? Unless you have given an explanation for that.
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For what the composition of the rods is, the blood part may still be canon. After all, it's in our bloodstream, that's why blood tastes the way it does :-/ Realistically it doesn't make sense of course, considering the amount of iron in our bodies is nowhere near high enough to make a pen sized stick, definitely not plenty of giant rods, but this is fiction we are talking about, so we shouldn't dismiss it just cause of that.
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So what if it's like this: Madara who was connected with some creepy tentacle spine thingies to Hash's Plant Clone, had his blood flow through it (symbiotic relationship)... Madara's blood in Hash Plant Clone + plenty of chakra + will = black rods ready to be served.
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This would also finally account for why Zetsu, who have no blood at all, were given a blood type in the databooks. Am I not a sweet Jesus fucking genius? ;-)
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EDIT: Yamato, Madara nor Hashirama react to Naruto's presence either, they are more stable I guess--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:18, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
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Okay, so I removed the Outer Path part for now. Furthermore, when Madara creates the black rod from Hashi's cells, he forms a hand sign. Can anybody else tell what sign that is? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 11:20, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
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:Even now he uses the Hash arm, but perhaps he just doesn't want to damage his glove :P And I haven't noticed any hand sign, chapter/page?--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:53, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
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::506 or so, dunno. Should be happening in the anime next week. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 13:55, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
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:::He used the Ram hand sign, should be added perhaps--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:08, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
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::::He did? To me it looks like a mirrored Ram, since his right hand is on top of the left. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 14:12, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
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He is left-handed? Still Ram tho :)--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:19, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
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== Rinnegan? ==
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Why is this a Rinnegan jutsu, like, at all? When Madara used it the first time, he used it without Rinnegan and actually, it was never hinted at any Dōjutsu involvement... shouldn't we remove it just to be safe? • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 21:10, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
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:It appears to have to do more with Hash cells than anything. Each time a Hash-dosed character used it, it was from the Hash arm. Not to mention originally it came from Plant Hash navel--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:18, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
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::Hard to say they revolve heavily around the rinnegan i think it stems from YYR ([[User:Kuroiraikou|Kuroiraikou]] ([[User talk:Kuroiraikou|talk]]) 21:34, April 22, 2014 (UTC))
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:::Agree that the Rinnegan is not required to make the black rods. Madara is only seen using them after implanting Hashirama's DNA, Obito only produces them from his artificial right half even after absorbing Ten-Tails, and it isn't entirely clear whether Nagato even could create them on his own. That said, in chapter 569 Obito implies that using chakra to bind whatever the rods touch is derived from the Outer Path, and he seems to be referring to both [[Demonic Statue Chains|this]] and the method Nagato used.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 00:39, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Obito didn't produce the ones that came form his artificial right side, Madara did. They're the same rods that appear when Madara attempts to subjugate Obito and force him to use the [[Outer Path: Samsara of Heavenly Life Technique]]. They were probably originally there when Madara grafted the Zetsu half to him. And just to point this out, the Rods are not entirely a Rinnegan jutsu, they originate from the [[Demonic Statue of the Outer Path]] -- That's where Nagato originally got them, and probably Madara, and eventually Obito. Each person only demonstrates conscious creation of the rods after gaining control of the Statue. And it was implied that the rods were a byproduct of Yin-Yang Release in Madara's usage of them - This would make sense given their chakra disruption properties. [[User:Skarrj|Skarrj]] ([[User talk:Skarrj|talk]]) 02:45, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
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:::::Obito was also able to make rods grow out of his artificial half when he wanted, not just when Madara forced them to emerge. Anyway, it's true that Madara said the rods were made from his will like Black Zetsu in chapter 606, did he not? I assume the only reason this is sort of danced around in the article is because it would imply that Obito and Nagato could also manifest their will, which likely isn't the case (maybe for Obito, since he can use Yin-Yang). Anyway, we should just write the sources as we've seen: Madara creates rods from his materialised will, both from his own body and from Hashirama's artificial body; Obito's rods always grow out of his right half; and Nagato's rods originally came from the Mazo, though the Pains could produce more through an unseen method.--[[User:BeyondRed|BeyondRed]] ([[User talk:BeyondRed|talk]]) 03:35, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
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Bumping this one too--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:51, June 14, 2014 (UTC)
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== Connection to Truth-Seeking Balls? ==
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I kinda have the feeling that they are similar. Like, the black rods being an incomplete version of TSB that lack the malleability/shapeshifting and ninjutsu negation qualities.
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So I could imagine it being like this:
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Both the rods and TSB are manifestations of Gedō Mazō/Shinjū's Chakra, which would explain why they can be grown out of Plant Hashirama/Mokuton and body parts made from it, which are originally just Hashi-cells that were ''cultivated'' and therefore ''imbued'' with Shinjū Chakra!
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Main difference between the two:
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Rods are "materialized" Gedō Mazō-Chakra (=Shinjū minus 9 Bijū), thus can be created and controlled by anyone who has synchronised with Mazou through the Outher Path of the Rinnegan and can be produced either ''directly from the statue'' or ''from anything that was infused with its Chakra'', like a Rinnegan-user's body or Plant Hashirama cells.
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TSB on the other hand are materializations of the ''full Shinjū's Chakra'' (=Gedō Mazō + Sen-Chakra of the Bijū), can only be used by being the Shinju's Jinchuuriki (or the host of all nine beasts, which is essentially the same), Rinnegan seems not necessary for TSB.
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So, TSB (which Madara called "Senjutsu of the Six Paths") could essentially be Rinnegan's/ Outer Path's/ Gedou statue's ability to create a Chakra-conducting material (which in itself could have been made with either YinYang- or all-five-elements-composite release and is called "manifestation of the user's will") + huge mass of Sen-chakra (=Bijuu-chakra) added to the mix?--[[User:Kiyuna|Kiyuna]] ([[User talk:Kiyuna|talk]]) 03:52, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
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You can't even compare the two at all without some speculation. And Hashirama's cells alone have never ''produced'' the Black Rods, read from the previous section (I already explained that there). These rods share no general characteristics with the Truth Seeking Spheres, which are malleable spheres of chakra, unlike these rods which are solid constructs with a set shape and design. The Black Rods or their Material has never been produced in any shape other than the rods. The only similarities between the two is that the Truth-Seeking Spheres have been shaped into rods which could receive Obito's chakra. Just because the Orbs can receive and project chakra does not mean they are similar to the Black Rods, just that they can adopt their characteristics. This could just due to the presence of Yin-Yang Release in both, which Madara seemed to suggest the Rods possessed before. [[User:Skarrj|Skarrj]] ([[User talk:Skarrj|talk]]) 04:00, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
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Well i didn't exactly say the rods can be produced from Hashirama cells alone. I said they can be produced from anything that has Gedo Mazo/Shinju-Chakra in it, which includes: The artificially created Hashi plant, Zetsu, the right half of Obito and ''most probably'' the body of any Rinnegan wielder since its Outer Path ability essentially is synchronisation with and using the Chakra of the Gedou statue. Of course, the actual TSB have nothing in common with the Black Stakes as far as we know, and i would in no way suggest to add any connection in the article. Just a speculative thought that may fit into the whole picture of Rikudou Sennin powers, let's see what we'll learn in the next chapters.--[[User:Kiyuna|Kiyuna]] ([[User talk:Kiyuna|talk]]) 04:21, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
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:Speculative discussions go in the naruto discussion forums, not talkpages. [[User:MangekyoSasuke|MangekyoSasuke]] ([[User talk:MangekyoSasuke|talk]]) 05:12, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
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== Naruto as a user? ==
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When Naruto pinned down Madara's limbo shadow in ch 675, he said he used "the six paths' rod" (not sure if the translation is correct though). Now was that just a TSB shaped into a regular rod or a TSB made into a chakra receiver rod like obito and madara did before? Would be plausible since the receivers were used in the same fashion previously to immobilise Tobirama. --[[User:Kiyuna|Kiyuna]] ([[User talk:Kiyuna|talk]]) 22:24, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
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:I understood it as Naruto having shaped three of his TSB into stakes to bind the shadow. The fact he left a shadow clone behind also lends credibility to that, as if the user is beyond 70m, they can no longer control the TSB. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 22:34, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
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::That's just Naruto giving nicknames to things and people taking it too literary. Hagoromo is the original TSB user, so an orb turned into a staff is "rikudo staff"--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:39, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
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Yea that's right Naruto has a habit of just inventing names for techniques he doesn't know, remember the "Gedo no Jutsu"...
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Probably those stakes just happened to look like the chakra disruptor blades, cause the disruptors/receivers may require Rinnegan as far as we know. But do TSB stakes have the same effect of paralyzing anyone stabbed or did they just impale him?--[[User:Kiyuna|Kiyuna]] ([[User talk:Kiyuna|talk]]) 13:18, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
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== Zetsu as a User ==
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Gosh it seems like I'm all over Zetsu's case lately. Chaprer 656, page 16. While back tracking through the chapters, I noticed some rods materialising outta BZ. Noteworthy? -- '''Koto'''<small><sup>[[user talk: Koto Senju|Talk Page]]-[[Special:Contributions/Koto Senju|My Contributions]]</sup></small> 21:37, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
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:I see the rod appearing along with BZ as well, not sure what that means tho--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:20, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
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::Obito has had those in his Zetsu-made side for a long time, earlier seen when he saw Rin die and went crazy. It is not Black Zetsu sourced, BZ didn't exist when Obito first showed them. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 00:03, May 22, 2014 (UTC)
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== inside of Obito's body ==
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Somewhere in the articles it says that the rods that burst out of Obito's body during the war were the same ones that Madara had placed into him during Hash-procedure. That may not be true, since as we have seen, the rods in Hash have vanished, meaning so did those in Obito after Madara disconnected himself from tentacle life support--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:54, June 12, 2014 (UTC)
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Bump, this is also relevant to the above topic. Since they disappear after its caster's death, the rods weren't the same as those Madara had placed there--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:50, June 14, 2014 (UTC)
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== why do we even ==
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Label this as something separate from [[Will Materialisation]]? I find it hard to believe that identical rods can be made using 2 different techniques. In fact, latest chapters make it even clearer. And I believe that Seel is right and Hash cells are a thing in this. So theory of everything:
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* Since Gedo Mazo was Kaguya and Kaguya made BZ using Will Materialization, this being Will Materialization would explain what the rods were doing in her navel
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* We know Madara can also use Will Materialization and even stated a rod to be his will, that's why I'm not even sure why this article exists as a separate technique
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* Madara always used Hash hand or Hash clone directly to make a rod
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* Obito also made a rod using Hash hand, but for some reason we made that to be a different rod made with Truth Seeking Balls--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 14:29, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
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:This was a page on the chakra receivers, as in the rods. Then it was folded into a Chakra Recover manifesting article. So yeah.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 14:40, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
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::I know, what's your opinion though? Same as Will Materialization or not? Because as of now, I don't see any evidence for this being a different technique nor for it being a Rinnegan technique--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 15:33, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
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:::I would say no. As the chakra receivers seem more...versitle than just will do so things.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 15:59, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
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The rod Madara used to fight Hashirama in the fourth war came out of his left hand, which wasn't a Zetsu hand, if I recall correctly. Also, the rods Obito made for the barrier are no chakra receivers made from his will, but from his gudodama. Other than that, I agree with you. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 19:16, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
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:Chapter for the left hand if you may? We saw Naruto turn the Truth Seeking Ball into a Tailed Beast Ball, so it's reasonable Obito did the same and turned one of them into the rod. That doesn't mean the rod was any different though, still functioned the same.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:36, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
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::Can't remember, it was when Madara explained to Hashirama what Shinobi are. Also, Naruto didn't turn anything. He simply made the TSB bigger, added Wind Release and that's it. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 19:49, July 11, 2014 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 19:49, July 11, 2014

Kabuto Edit

Should we label the pebbles that Kabuto uses to control the impure world resurrection as chakra receivers? It seems to me that they are —This unsigned comment was made by Timeel39 (talkcontribs) .

They're mentioned in the technique page, and probably in Kabuto's ability section. That should be enough until more focus and information is given on those pebbles. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:34, December 27, 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm.. Edit

"Nagato also seemingly went to some lengths to retrieve them"

Wasn't this because if one was to find a way to trace the chakra, (say as how Naruto did by stabbing himself with it), they would of been able to find him? I mean they didn't have to do it like Naruto did, but they would of found a way eventually. Just like everything else they come across, they find a way. So maybe something like "Incase they track it back to him" or something of the sort? SusanooUnleashed (talk) 13:14, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

That's just there to distinguish between it and the Chakra Disruption Blades. There could be other reasons why he went back for the receiver apart from fearing that they'd trace him.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 13:36, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Naruto Edit

Why don't you list him as an user? He used them to locate Pain. --109.93.79.37 (talk) 00:26, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

I think he used them more a s a tool to find pain than actually wielding them. ROBO731 (Talk) Mangekyō Sharingan Itachi 00:30, January 9, 2012 (UTC)
All Naruto did was stab himself with it so he'd have an easier time sensing Nagato's chakra, which went straight into the chakra receiver. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:32, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

Moving around. Edit

Should something be added how the receiver moves on the Jinchuriki once they go through a transformation and get bigger? SusanooUnleashed (talk) 11:49, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

I s'pose.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 12:39, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

Control Edit

Shouldn't it be said that these can be used to control others?Undominanthybrid (talk) 14:10, May 16, 2012 (UTC) "...Doing so allowed him to transmit his chakra into the bodies and control them remotely as if they were his own body." ?--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 14:33, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

I meant living, breathing or ressurected people, not dead bodies.Undominanthybrid (talk) 15:02, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

I'd assume you're referring to Naruto during the invasion? That's being counted as Chakra Disruption Blades, though from the dialogue in the chapter this may need to be re-evaluated. Otherwise, those Edo Tensei's were as good as corpses.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 15:18, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

chapter 598, a new variant Edit

Isn't it? maybe worthy a picture and a mention--Elveonora (talk) 14:53, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

Definitely a variation. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:41, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

As for the new variants, I'm confused on how Tobi created them like that. I understand if he used his S/T jutsu to bring them to him, but it doesn't look like something the Statue would create. 173.63.93.233 (talk) 23:56, August 23, 2012 (UTC) Bobbob

Maybe he is a blacksmith--Elveonora (talk) 00:01, August 24, 2012 (UTC)

I'm wondering about that...they look more like a giant version of Nagato's disruption blades, or a new weapon altogether that's related to the blades and receivers...remember those things aren't for offensive use, but to transmit Nagato/Tobi's chakra and control the Six Paths, while the blades were to paralyze and disrupt a foe's chakra flow...this however was stated as a weapon that seals tailed beast powers, so i'm not quite sure. Darksusanoo (talk) 00:58, August 24, 2012 (UTC)

either way, tobi couldv'e simply altered their shape (before or after they were made). they seemed like chakra recievers that were just shaped diferently besides wev'e never seen them being created. still they are almost certainly chakra recievers, as they made those outer path chains and were being used to suppress tailed beasts' power.98.26.246.122 (talk) 01:17, August 24, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan

um creation of all things?206.74.210.130 (talk) 02:58, August 24, 2012 (UTC)

Creation of All Things so far has only been said to be used by the Sage of the Six Paths. 173.63.93.233 (talk) 17:31, August 24, 2012 (UTC) Bobbob

From how i see it this shouldn't chalked up with the chakra receivers, given how their functions are very different...one is used to control the Six Paths of Pain, the other ones are used to restrain Tailed Beasts, plus the differences in shape and size...if a different article was made for the blade variant which is basically an elongated version of the receivers than these should get the same treatment. Darksusanoo (talk) 17:16, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

Split. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:53, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

origins Edit

Kinda confused now, do they come from the statue/Hashirama's clone/Madara ??? They also sprouted from Obito, wonder why it isn't mentioned.--Elveonora (talk) 16:28, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

The rods are from the Outer Path. Madara could have simply let the statue send the receiver down there or something. As for the bit with Obito, it's being held off on precisely for that reason.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 16:47, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
The rods are made utilizing yin-yang release. One needs either the rinnegan or both senju and uchiha dna to make them. Proof of this is when obito first made them when he first activated his mangekyo sharingan. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 04:47, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
No proof Obito made them. They don't look like something one happens to make. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 12:59, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
Small topic revival, this has been answered on narutoanswerswiki:

"Nagato generated these Chakra Disruption Blades using his Outer Path ability. As a result, his Six Paths of Pain, which were also generated using the Outer Path ability, could produce them apparently limitlessly from their bodies. The Gedou Mazou, the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path, also has a collection of Chakra Tranmittors, aka Black Rods, connected to it. However, these were created by Madara before his death and contain his will, allowing the user to not only control the Statue, but to use the Six Paths Technique as well. Nagato summoned the Gedo Mazo and synchronized with Madara's chakra tranmittors and the Gedou Mazou during his fight with Hanzo, after the battle he would use the transmittors in his Outer Path: Six Paths of Pain jutsu to transmit chakra to other Chakra Receivers which doubled as body piercings on the six corpses, and these receivers were generated by the Outer Path ability as well."

There appears to be some confusion if they originate from the Jubi or Madara and later Obito made them using Outer Path.--Elveonora (talk) 12:09, May 8, 2013 (UTC)

Too much confusion right now, i believe this black metal (Chakra Receivers) we see going out from Obito's body has nothing to do with the black roots, this is not created by Madara's will at all, and i believe it is only a YYR technique, this has nothing to do with WR, Nagato didn't had WR. Again, everyone is very confused here .Dan.Faulkner (talk) 01:14, July 4, 2013 (UTC)

Red reflection Edit

So, I see that the red reflection trivia point was removed. I do recall that, having added it myself, but I'm too lazy to look it up again. I'm certain it happened during Naruto vs Pain, possibly around the time Hinata intervened. If anyone wants to check. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:25, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

NameEdit

It was named in Naruto Shippūden: Shinobi Rumble, Kokushin (Black Needle). Should we mention about it or name it like that ?--Salamancc (talk) 23:28, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

Already is mentioned, check "In Other Media" section. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:23, July 23, 2013 (UTC)

I think, we should rename this page Black Needle, it was named in the games.--Salamancc (talk) 00:41, August 29, 2013 (UTC)

Separate by Users Edit

Seeing as how it's difficult to say what the differences are between the receivers and the blades (assuming there even are any) and it is also tough to call where the technique creating these black rods ends and the usage of them as tools begins, might it be better to divide the article into sections for each user and explain how they utilised the black material, rather than by divide them by "type" (stakes, rods, etc.)?--BeyondRed (talk) 17:55, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

The main problem with this idea is that there would be tons of repetition in each user section. Joshbl56 01:06, August 19, 2013 (UTC)
The main information we know would be under usage. The user sections would be for details and specific uses (Obito's stakes and chakra chains, for example).--BeyondRed (talk) 01:34, August 19, 2013 (UTC)

Blood Edit

Aren't we going to include that it was stated by Kishimoto that these things were created by mixing Nagato's Chakra and his blood (which obviously contradicts with what we know now)? Seelentau 愛 00:27, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Question...where did you found that bit of information? Darksusanoo (talk) 00:30, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
I never did, I just read it on another talk page, where it was stated that Kishimoto said so in one of the author comments at the beginning of each WSJ, but I don't have more information about that. If someone had access to all WSJ issues, he could look it up, since but I'm not able to do that. Seelentau 愛 00:35, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
Hum...well maybe we should wait for someone to bring some link with that information or something...unless he can get details, this kind of hear-say can create a lot of confusion. Opinions? Darksusanoo (talk) 00:38, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
I recall reading and commenting on that too once, maybe even removing the trivia when the source wasn't available. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:40, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

I have a personal interest in solving this topic, but there's almost no way to confirm or deny this, unless someone actually owns the WSJ issue. But I don't even know when exactly this was said, so I can't search for the respective WSJ... can someone find the discussion where this was said? Seelentau 愛 12:38, December 18, 2013 (UTC)

Well, that didn't take long: Talk:Chakra Disruption Blades#Chakra Blades. Now where to find chapter 438 and the WSJ it was published in...? It's four years old, though^^' Seelentau 愛 12:46, December 18, 2013 (UTC)

One would have thought that something as important had to have made its way into the manga or databooks, bad Kishi. Have you tried googling "chakra receivers blood" or something like that?--Elveonora (talk) 13:31, December 18, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, the first result was this talk page (or the other one) Seelentau 愛 13:44, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
I think it may be false, I mean, what a nonsense... did you not see the poor old guy? He surely looked malnourished, spilling his own blood to make sticks doesn't sound exactly like something one would do with death on his tongue. But perhaps he did that for the means of diabetes diagnosis... after all, being connected to a plant must have given him overdose of sugars and even induce madness.--Elveonora (talk) 14:06, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
I created a thread over at mangahelpers, maybe someone will answer... Seelentau 愛 15:05, December 18, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, what I gathered so far is that the related WSJ issue was published on 9th March 2009 +- one week. Furthermore, I found this spoiler which was labelled as pending, but we know better. This sentence is the important one:
ナルトの動きを止めていた黒棒は長門のチャクラを練りこんだ自らの血を材料に形を維持している
It says The black rods (黒棒, Kokubō) which stopped Naruto's movement are Nagato's Chakra..., the rest is kinda complicated to translate. However, would that suffice as proof? I'm searching for a page where I can get the whole issue next. Seelentau 愛 10:34, December 19, 2013 (UTC)

You mean if it's pending status suffice as proof? Dunno, we could always use a warning template. But from what you have translated so far, I fail to see blood mentioned in there :- /--Elveonora (talk) 14:38, December 19, 2013 (UTC)

血 is the Kanji for blood, but I translated only the part until チャクラ, everything after that comes later, when I can concentrate on it better. Eh, whatever. I actually talked to a raw-provider-group and they told me they'd ask their Japanese friends if they could get their hands on a copy of that issue. So maybe we'll have a scan of the raw page soon and I can double-check the above sentence. Seelentau 愛 14:50, December 19, 2013 (UTC)

Well, if that proves to be correct, then Nagato must have had excessive amounts of iron in his blood. Why didn't he think of becoming a blacksmith is what I wonder tho. Joking aside, thank you for your efforts pal--Elveonora (talk) 15:06, December 19, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, so I got help from a fellow translator and a possible translation for that sentence is The black rods (黒棒, Kokubō) which stopped Naruto's movement are kneaded with Nagato's Chakra and held in form by the components of his own blood. Seelentau 愛 12:13, December 21, 2013 (UTC)

Well, if you find a good way to incorporate that to the article, go for it.--Elveonora (talk) 12:47, December 21, 2013 (UTC)

The stakes Edit

B mentioned the stakes had curse marks. Was there already a discussion on this? And I don't remember this in the manga. --OmegaRasengan (talk) 16:56, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

I'd also like to know this??? and I don't think there's been a discussion on this yet.Munchvtec (talk) 16:58, January 9, 2014 (UTC)munchvtec

There has. Seelentau 愛 17:21, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

Outer Path Edit

Can I get a source for the Outer Path being the origin for this technique? Seelentau 愛 18:23, January 11, 2014 (UTC)

Think it was an offshoot of the Will Materialization thing.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 19:00, January 11, 2014 (UTC)
It doesn't say origin, only that the whole will control thingy is done with Rinnegan's Outer Path.--Elveonora (talk) 19:06, January 11, 2014 (UTC)
It says "This ability, used by Rinnegan users through the Outer Path, creates multi-purpose black rods", meaning "the jutsu to create the rods is used through the outer path". But that was never said, if I remember correctly. Seelentau 愛 19:32, January 11, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, that never was said, so it is an assumption/speculation. But Outer Path is still needed to use the rods, so it being a parent isn't wrong. There's lots of conflicting and vague information about the origins of the rods.--Elveonora (talk) 21:34, January 11, 2014 (UTC)
I wished they just stayed Pain's thing...--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 22:09, January 11, 2014 (UTC)
And I wish Kishi would realize that we aren't detectives paid to glue all the clues together to make any sense of it. Databook 4 nowhere, check, anime Soundtrack 3 nowhere, check. They are like: "shit will be ending soon, so we can afford to be lazy since once it's over, they gonna forget anyway while we be grabbin' the cash"--Elveonora (talk) 23:59, January 11, 2014 (UTC)

If my memory serves me correctly, I recall this ability was accredited to the Outer Path, due to it being in relation to the Gedo Mazo statue. (Even I, the creator of this page, has a vague recollection of the events leading to it.)--Senju SymbolKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 00:32, January 12, 2014 (UTC)

I'm re-writing the article in the German wiki, trying to explain everything as good as possible. That's why I need to know when this was mentioned. When I finished the article, I can probably explain it to you guys, too. Seelentau 愛 15:20, January 12, 2014 (UTC)

Well, let's just hope the explanation isn't just opinionated :-/ The Outer Path is a leftover from those who were so fond of the notion of it being a Rinnegan thing.--Elveonora (talk) 16:24, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
Didn't Konan say Outer Path was Rinnegan.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 17:14, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, Outer Path seems to be the default/main/true Rinnegan power, but where is evidence for the rods to have come from a Rinnegan tech? They are used with Outer Path, doesn't necessarily mean they are made with it--Elveonora (talk) 18:12, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
Ah, I see. Again I think that was again part of the overall Will Materialzation/Outer Path/Chakra Rods discussion. it was long and screwy and it had a ripple effect over what, three or four, articles.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 20:11, January 12, 2014 (UTC)

Shinju/Gedo Statue being the origin has always made the most sense to me, but that doesn't appear to be the case. Madara's rods at least are his will turned mass for sure, but is it true for Obito and Nagato as well? Nagato could apparently create them too from his body, with the whole "made of chakra and blood" thing, it's good for headaches.--Elveonora (talk) 20:20, January 12, 2014 (UTC)

mh, I haven't finished the article yet (gonna do that tomorrow at "work"), but let's talk about the origins:

The first time they could be seen timeline-wise was when Obito snapped. We know Madara somehow implanted them, but we don't know how exactly. What's important is that they appeared only where Hashi's cells were, not on Obito's own body.
The second time is when Madara was actually seen creating a black rod. He stated that it's his physical will and that they're somehow connected to the six paths technique. Again, they're created out of Hashi's cells.
The third time is when Obito summoned the statue. Here is the problem. We don't know why the rod could be created without Hashi's cells. I thought that it could've to do with Nagato being an Uzumaki-Senju, but that doesn't explain how the rod can come out somewhere else than Hashi's cells.
Personally, I don't think Nagato created the rods by himself. I think it was somehow Obito's doing and he was the one who provided Nagato with the rods for the corpses (see point 2). I will ignore the blood-issue, because that's as uncanon as it can be.
After all the Pain stuff ended, the rods come back with Madara. Again, he created rods from Obito's cell body-part. Since they're more than the last time, I conclude that they weren't "stored" there, but are actually created from Madara's will and Hashi's cells (or so). May it as it be, Hashi's cells play a big role in this whole issue.
The latest time the rods were created was when Obito attacked Kakashi (they came from his right hand, his Hashi-hand) and when Madara attacked Hashirama himself. Here is another problem: how could Madara create the rods out of his right hand when there are no Hashi cells? This could be because he had Hashi's cells implanted by Kabuto, but on a better level than Obito. You could say that while Obito is part Uchiha and part Senju, Madara is both Uchiha and Senju at the same time.

That said, the easiest way to resolve this would be Yin Yang Release. We have Madara's will (Yin) and Hashi's cells (Yang) and the rods are basically the embodiment of YYR. Seelentau 愛 21:26, January 12, 2014 (UTC)

Wait wait wait wait. How are we assuming Hashirama cells lead to black rod creation?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 21:37, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
Like I know he said the rod he created was made of his will, but when did he say "also this is hashirama cell made"?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 21:39, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
He didn't say that, but as you can see from the bolded parts, Hashi's cells where connected to almost every creation of the rods. In fact, the rods came only once out of something else than Hashi's cells. Seelentau 愛 21:51, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
But couldn't it be equally justified that they came out not because of Hashirama's cells but Madara's will? I mean, he did make the Zetsu parts that is half of Tobi's body in the first place. Same way Pain could make rods, he wills them to be and they be.
This is starting to sound like a familiar discussion...are we getting sidetracked?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 22:10, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
I think that's a mistake on my side: I meant the rods came out of Hashirama's cell tissue and nowhere else (except for the statue's navel), that's why I strongly believe that Hashirama's cells are connected to the creation of the rods. But they did not come out "because" of Madara's will, but "as" Madara's will, just in physical form. But for his will to take form, he needs something physical: Hashirama's cells. Seelentau 愛 22:15, January 12, 2014 (UTC)

Makes sense, I guess. I mentioned it before that Hash might have something to do with it. It could also explain why Gedo Statue had them in its novel, it was sitting on top of Hash Flower, it came from Hash Clone and pierced it perhaps, in order to allow Madara control it? ._. Also another Hash connection is Black Zetsu, which is in fact White Zetsu reject (Hash cells) coated in... will.--Elveonora (talk) 01:41, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

Since Kishi had the statue appear before Madara created the rod, it could simply be a retcon. I don't want to denounce it as such, but I can't think of any other reason why the rod came out of the statue's navel. And yes, Black Zetsu is a will-coated White Zetsu, but I'm not sure how Madara could give his will the physical form of a coat without having something to form the coat out of... furthermore, if the stakes are made of Hashi's cells, then why didn't they react to Naruto's yang chakra? Seelentau 愛 10:37, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

Well, as I thought, your proposal even if sensible is still opinionated, considering the other folk may interpret what has been presented differently. For all we know, all Hash-Black Rod related instances are just a coincidence/unrelated occurrence. Last time I remember, I think it was Cerez who said that the best course of action is to just write up all there is to know without actually giving a forced explanation, leaving it vague for personal interpretation and it had been done, but for some reason the Outer Path has stayed there... so how about we remove that and leave the rest of the article be as is? But there indeed seem to be some connection to the Gedo Statue, those Edo Jinchuuriki pierced with the rods were bind to it somehow and the chains appear to be Outer Path related, so perhaps that's where it comes from? Unless you have given an explanation for that.

For what the composition of the rods is, the blood part may still be canon. After all, it's in our bloodstream, that's why blood tastes the way it does :-/ Realistically it doesn't make sense of course, considering the amount of iron in our bodies is nowhere near high enough to make a pen sized stick, definitely not plenty of giant rods, but this is fiction we are talking about, so we shouldn't dismiss it just cause of that.

So what if it's like this: Madara who was connected with some creepy tentacle spine thingies to Hash's Plant Clone, had his blood flow through it (symbiotic relationship)... Madara's blood in Hash Plant Clone + plenty of chakra + will = black rods ready to be served.

This would also finally account for why Zetsu, who have no blood at all, were given a blood type in the databooks. Am I not a sweet Jesus fucking genius? ;-) EDIT: Yamato, Madara nor Hashirama react to Naruto's presence either, they are more stable I guess--Elveonora (talk) 13:18, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, so I removed the Outer Path part for now. Furthermore, when Madara creates the black rod from Hashi's cells, he forms a hand sign. Can anybody else tell what sign that is? Seelentau 愛 11:20, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

Even now he uses the Hash arm, but perhaps he just doesn't want to damage his glove :P And I haven't noticed any hand sign, chapter/page?--Elveonora (talk) 12:53, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
506 or so, dunno. Should be happening in the anime next week. Seelentau 愛 13:55, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
He used the Ram hand sign, should be added perhaps--Elveonora (talk) 14:08, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
He did? To me it looks like a mirrored Ram, since his right hand is on top of the left. Seelentau 愛 14:12, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

He is left-handed? Still Ram tho :)--Elveonora (talk) 14:19, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

Rinnegan? Edit

Why is this a Rinnegan jutsu, like, at all? When Madara used it the first time, he used it without Rinnegan and actually, it was never hinted at any Dōjutsu involvement... shouldn't we remove it just to be safe? • Seelentau 愛 21:10, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

It appears to have to do more with Hash cells than anything. Each time a Hash-dosed character used it, it was from the Hash arm. Not to mention originally it came from Plant Hash navel--Elveonora (talk) 21:18, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
Hard to say they revolve heavily around the rinnegan i think it stems from YYR (Kuroiraikou (talk) 21:34, April 22, 2014 (UTC))
Agree that the Rinnegan is not required to make the black rods. Madara is only seen using them after implanting Hashirama's DNA, Obito only produces them from his artificial right half even after absorbing Ten-Tails, and it isn't entirely clear whether Nagato even could create them on his own. That said, in chapter 569 Obito implies that using chakra to bind whatever the rods touch is derived from the Outer Path, and he seems to be referring to both this and the method Nagato used.--BeyondRed (talk) 00:39, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
Obito didn't produce the ones that came form his artificial right side, Madara did. They're the same rods that appear when Madara attempts to subjugate Obito and force him to use the Outer Path: Samsara of Heavenly Life Technique. They were probably originally there when Madara grafted the Zetsu half to him. And just to point this out, the Rods are not entirely a Rinnegan jutsu, they originate from the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path -- That's where Nagato originally got them, and probably Madara, and eventually Obito. Each person only demonstrates conscious creation of the rods after gaining control of the Statue. And it was implied that the rods were a byproduct of Yin-Yang Release in Madara's usage of them - This would make sense given their chakra disruption properties. Skarrj (talk) 02:45, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
Obito was also able to make rods grow out of his artificial half when he wanted, not just when Madara forced them to emerge. Anyway, it's true that Madara said the rods were made from his will like Black Zetsu in chapter 606, did he not? I assume the only reason this is sort of danced around in the article is because it would imply that Obito and Nagato could also manifest their will, which likely isn't the case (maybe for Obito, since he can use Yin-Yang). Anyway, we should just write the sources as we've seen: Madara creates rods from his materialised will, both from his own body and from Hashirama's artificial body; Obito's rods always grow out of his right half; and Nagato's rods originally came from the Mazo, though the Pains could produce more through an unseen method.--BeyondRed (talk) 03:35, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Bumping this one too--Elveonora (talk) 12:51, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

Connection to Truth-Seeking Balls? Edit

I kinda have the feeling that they are similar. Like, the black rods being an incomplete version of TSB that lack the malleability/shapeshifting and ninjutsu negation qualities. So I could imagine it being like this:

Both the rods and TSB are manifestations of Gedō Mazō/Shinjū's Chakra, which would explain why they can be grown out of Plant Hashirama/Mokuton and body parts made from it, which are originally just Hashi-cells that were cultivated and therefore imbued with Shinjū Chakra!

Main difference between the two:

Rods are "materialized" Gedō Mazō-Chakra (=Shinjū minus 9 Bijū), thus can be created and controlled by anyone who has synchronised with Mazou through the Outher Path of the Rinnegan and can be produced either directly from the statue or from anything that was infused with its Chakra, like a Rinnegan-user's body or Plant Hashirama cells.

TSB on the other hand are materializations of the full Shinjū's Chakra (=Gedō Mazō + Sen-Chakra of the Bijū), can only be used by being the Shinju's Jinchuuriki (or the host of all nine beasts, which is essentially the same), Rinnegan seems not necessary for TSB.

So, TSB (which Madara called "Senjutsu of the Six Paths") could essentially be Rinnegan's/ Outer Path's/ Gedou statue's ability to create a Chakra-conducting material (which in itself could have been made with either YinYang- or all-five-elements-composite release and is called "manifestation of the user's will") + huge mass of Sen-chakra (=Bijuu-chakra) added to the mix?--Kiyuna (talk) 03:52, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

You can't even compare the two at all without some speculation. And Hashirama's cells alone have never produced the Black Rods, read from the previous section (I already explained that there). These rods share no general characteristics with the Truth Seeking Spheres, which are malleable spheres of chakra, unlike these rods which are solid constructs with a set shape and design. The Black Rods or their Material has never been produced in any shape other than the rods. The only similarities between the two is that the Truth-Seeking Spheres have been shaped into rods which could receive Obito's chakra. Just because the Orbs can receive and project chakra does not mean they are similar to the Black Rods, just that they can adopt their characteristics. This could just due to the presence of Yin-Yang Release in both, which Madara seemed to suggest the Rods possessed before. Skarrj (talk) 04:00, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Well i didn't exactly say the rods can be produced from Hashirama cells alone. I said they can be produced from anything that has Gedo Mazo/Shinju-Chakra in it, which includes: The artificially created Hashi plant, Zetsu, the right half of Obito and most probably the body of any Rinnegan wielder since its Outer Path ability essentially is synchronisation with and using the Chakra of the Gedou statue. Of course, the actual TSB have nothing in common with the Black Stakes as far as we know, and i would in no way suggest to add any connection in the article. Just a speculative thought that may fit into the whole picture of Rikudou Sennin powers, let's see what we'll learn in the next chapters.--Kiyuna (talk) 04:21, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Speculative discussions go in the naruto discussion forums, not talkpages. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 05:12, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Naruto as a user? Edit

When Naruto pinned down Madara's limbo shadow in ch 675, he said he used "the six paths' rod" (not sure if the translation is correct though). Now was that just a TSB shaped into a regular rod or a TSB made into a chakra receiver rod like obito and madara did before? Would be plausible since the receivers were used in the same fashion previously to immobilise Tobirama. --Kiyuna (talk) 22:24, May 14, 2014 (UTC)

I understood it as Naruto having shaped three of his TSB into stakes to bind the shadow. The fact he left a shadow clone behind also lends credibility to that, as if the user is beyond 70m, they can no longer control the TSB. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:34, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
That's just Naruto giving nicknames to things and people taking it too literary. Hagoromo is the original TSB user, so an orb turned into a staff is "rikudo staff"--Elveonora (talk) 22:39, May 14, 2014 (UTC)

Yea that's right Naruto has a habit of just inventing names for techniques he doesn't know, remember the "Gedo no Jutsu"... Probably those stakes just happened to look like the chakra disruptor blades, cause the disruptors/receivers may require Rinnegan as far as we know. But do TSB stakes have the same effect of paralyzing anyone stabbed or did they just impale him?--Kiyuna (talk) 13:18, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

Zetsu as a User Edit

Gosh it seems like I'm all over Zetsu's case lately. Chaprer 656, page 16. While back tracking through the chapters, I noticed some rods materialising outta BZ. Noteworthy? -- KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 21:37, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

I see the rod appearing along with BZ as well, not sure what that means tho--Elveonora (talk) 22:20, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
Obito has had those in his Zetsu-made side for a long time, earlier seen when he saw Rin die and went crazy. It is not Black Zetsu sourced, BZ didn't exist when Obito first showed them. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:03, May 22, 2014 (UTC)

inside of Obito's body Edit

Somewhere in the articles it says that the rods that burst out of Obito's body during the war were the same ones that Madara had placed into him during Hash-procedure. That may not be true, since as we have seen, the rods in Hash have vanished, meaning so did those in Obito after Madara disconnected himself from tentacle life support--Elveonora (talk) 13:54, June 12, 2014 (UTC)

Bump, this is also relevant to the above topic. Since they disappear after its caster's death, the rods weren't the same as those Madara had placed there--Elveonora (talk) 12:50, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

why do we even Edit

Label this as something separate from Will Materialisation? I find it hard to believe that identical rods can be made using 2 different techniques. In fact, latest chapters make it even clearer. And I believe that Seel is right and Hash cells are a thing in this. So theory of everything:

  • Since Gedo Mazo was Kaguya and Kaguya made BZ using Will Materialization, this being Will Materialization would explain what the rods were doing in her navel
  • We know Madara can also use Will Materialization and even stated a rod to be his will, that's why I'm not even sure why this article exists as a separate technique
  • Madara always used Hash hand or Hash clone directly to make a rod
  • Obito also made a rod using Hash hand, but for some reason we made that to be a different rod made with Truth Seeking Balls--Elveonora (talk) 14:29, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
This was a page on the chakra receivers, as in the rods. Then it was folded into a Chakra Recover manifesting article. So yeah.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 14:40, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
I know, what's your opinion though? Same as Will Materialization or not? Because as of now, I don't see any evidence for this being a different technique nor for it being a Rinnegan technique--Elveonora (talk) 15:33, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
I would say no. As the chakra receivers seem more...versitle than just will do so things.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 15:59, July 11, 2014 (UTC)

The rod Madara used to fight Hashirama in the fourth war came out of his left hand, which wasn't a Zetsu hand, if I recall correctly. Also, the rods Obito made for the barrier are no chakra receivers made from his will, but from his gudodama. Other than that, I agree with you. • Seelentau 愛 19:16, July 11, 2014 (UTC)

Chapter for the left hand if you may? We saw Naruto turn the Truth Seeking Ball into a Tailed Beast Ball, so it's reasonable Obito did the same and turned one of them into the rod. That doesn't mean the rod was any different though, still functioned the same.--Elveonora (talk) 19:36, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
Can't remember, it was when Madara explained to Hashirama what Shinobi are. Also, Naruto didn't turn anything. He simply made the TSB bigger, added Wind Release and that's it. • Seelentau 愛 19:49, July 11, 2014 (UTC)

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