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(sorry just making my comment neater)
(long story short)
 
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<span class="warningmessage">QUESTIONS REGARDING TOPICS ALREADY IN THE TALK PAGE OR ITS ARCHIVES <strong>WILL BE REMOVED</strong>, ALONG WITH THE REPLIES TO IT</span>
 
<span class="warningmessage">QUESTIONS REGARDING TOPICS ALREADY IN THE TALK PAGE OR ITS ARCHIVES <strong>WILL BE REMOVED</strong>, ALONG WITH THE REPLIES TO IT</span>
 
 
 
{{ArchiveList}}
 
{{ArchiveList}}
   
== Credibility? ==
+
== long story short ==
 
1. It is said that the black flames of the ameratsu is the strongest fire jutsu. This "Blaze Release" is saying that it's a different jutsu that uses the same black flames. That doesn's sound right.
 
2. When he extinguished the black flames from Kirin and Killer Bee, it showed that Sasuke experienced extreme pain in his eyes after doing such. That is evidence alone that this "Blaze Release", being described as controling the black flames, is nothing more than Sasuke's grand talent in the Mangekyo Sharingan.
 
3. The uchiha clan was a clan that thrived on war, if they contained such a kekkei genkai of mass proportions and didn't realize it, then how could Sasuke have in the heat of battle. With all, if not almost all, kekkei genkai are noticed and exploited for the ninja's use sooner in life than the mid to late teens (EX. Haku discovering around the age of 8).
 
4. If this was a bloodline limit, then why didn't sasuke learn about it or figure it out before the ameratsu?
 
5. Other bloodlines don't follow the nature of one of the two elements. Ice isn't water, or wind. Wood isn't earth, or water. Storm isn't lightning, or water. Although, it's more of lighting moving in the manner of water, making it mutualistic. Lava isn't earth, or fire. Boil(boiling mist) isn't fire, or water. "Blaze" only resembles fire. There is no atribute that would make it lighting. The key point of the fire is the flames produced, and controled, by the Ameratsu.
 
 
This is simply great mastery of the sharingan, for it has no resemblance to a bloodline limit, while containing the sharingan's abilities.
 
 
--[[User:Komikale|Komikale]] ([[User talk:Komikale|talk]]) 01:06, March 6, 2011 (UTC)Mikale koe
 
 
Blaze Release is a very unusual way, and to this day makes us scratch our heads. Given how little we know about it, all we could do is use what we already know about chakra natures. My guess in particular is that Blaze Release is Fire Release being modified by Yin Release, which might not actually be a kekkei genkai at all, given how Yin and Yang seem to be the basis of all so far non-elemental ninjutsu. About your points:
 
#Blaze Release so far has shown to be controlling and manipulating the flames in ways Amaterasu was never shown to be used.
 
#Putting out the flames might be Blaze Release, we don't know. Sasuke did that way before we could ever think something like Blaze Release would come along. As per the previous point, Blaze Release seems to be about a precise manipulation of the flames. Sasuke had also just discovered he could do that, plus later on he got his hate on, so that must count for something. Blaze Release could be to Mangekyō what Mangekyō is to the regular Sharingan.
 
#There are very few known people who awakened the Mangekyō Sharingan. Haku doing the water controlling was anime-only, that doesn't count. For all we know from the manga, the first time he actually used his kekkei genkai was when he killed his father.
 
#Considering what Blaze Release appears to be, it is about manipulating the flames. It's something even Itachi didn't do. Of course we would have to learn Amaterasu before using Blaze Release. What you're suggesting is akin to Naruto learning Rasenshuriken before Rasengan.
 
#The fact Blaze Release is so dissimilar to other advanced natures, and the fact it appears to come from a dōjutsu is what causes the afore-mentioned head scratching. We're not saying that Blaze is fire and lightning, and if you're talking about the image in the nature transformation page, it's just there because we had pick a spot for it to be, and fire and lightning were, according to the established "two elements into one" rule, the least speculative choice, and the fact it has a question mark denotes that it is a speculation, a guess. Ice is technically solid water. Lava is technically molten earth. Mist is technically water particles in the air.
 
 
As mentioned, Blaze Release is highly unusual, considering previously established rules for nature transformation, so until the next databook or more manga exposition, we work with what we have. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 01:23, March 6, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
The main summary of your information is that it's a greater mangekyo manipulation. Since ameratsu was already described being the strongest fire-style ability, it is above all others without use of ying or yang.
 
For the bloodline limits you mentioned, they're a combination of the two elements, not claiming all the abilities of one. The point of my involvement on this is to try to have it removed from kekkei genkai because it does not associate as one. I will be okay if it becomes a mangakyo ability that controls the fire, but I am putting up this argument that it does not associate with the bloodlines it is listed with.
 
--[[User:Komikale|Komikale]] ([[User talk:Komikale|talk]]) 01:37, March 6, 2011 (UTC)mikale
 
 
There are, in my opinion, two reasons why Blaze Release is listed as a kekkei genkai:
 
#So far, it was only shown to manipulate Amaterasu, which is a kekkei genkai ninjutsu. It's not as if Sasuke had used it the manipulate another Fire Release technique. It was used with his Mangekyō Sharingan, the left eye if I'm not mistaken, so a kekkei genkai is necessary to use it.
 
#The mechanics of nature transformation so far says that if an element isn't one of the basic five, it is an advanced one, formed by merging of two or more elements. Such a thing can only be achieved by having a proper bloodline, or by having the ability to come from a tailed beast.
 
 
Even if it turns out not to be a kekkei genkai, at the moment, there are more things suggesting it is one than there are things suggesting it's not. Regardless, should it be revealed not to be a kekkei genkai, it'll be changed accordingly. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 01:47, March 6, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
But, in the context of a doujutsu having relations to the visual aspects, Sasuke's pain after it can only mean that it is nothing more than an advancement on the ameratsu, in which ameratsu was declared the strongest "fire-element" jutsu.
 
 
Also, in the point of view of the writter, why would he make a bloodline limit that is completely unheard of until Sasuke when Itachi wasn't able to do so. If it was a bloodline, Itachi should be able to use it. The argument you could make there is that Itachi didn't inherit it though. Back to the main point, the writer making a new kekkei genkai that would depend solely on someone gaining an extreme state, the mangekyo sharingan, before being able to use such ability is somewhat obsurd. I don't beilive anyone would stand for something that iffy.
 
 
In the spirit of the kekkei genkai being combined elements, it would also be obsurd assuming that a comination fire-lightning element would only burn and engulf, having no attribute twords lightning. {{unsigned|Komikale}}
 
 
We're no Kishimoto, we don't know what he means, or what the purpose of this is. As I said previously, nothing in this article suggests that Blaze Release is a combination of fire and lightning. The one thing which does that in the entire wiki is the image, and again, there is a question mark showing that it's a speculation, the icon being added there solely for the purpose of being there, instead of, say wind and lightning. All information regarding Blaze Release is written based on everything the manga has ever said, and will continue to be so as more information is divulged. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 02:54, March 6, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
No, we're not, but he is the rational source behind the story so he wouldn't make any irrational facts about such strong jutsu that wouldn't follow the rules he has displayed. This article does not display it being a combination, but this site shows that's how it is. I don't agree with that last statement. I find that there has been more than enough information twords this just being an expansion of the mangakyo sharingan and that this element is useless to have, due to the fact it's just fire ability and doujutsu.--[[User:Komikale|Komikale]] ([[User talk:Komikale|talk]]) 03:22, March 6, 2011 (UTC)mikale
 
 
Then until more information becomes available, we'll agree to disagree. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 03:33, March 6, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
I can handle to let go and agree with that. --[[User:Komikale|Komikale]] ([[User talk:Komikale|talk]]) 03:35, March 6, 2011 (UTC)mikale
 
 
What if Blaze release doesn't use any natures whether it's yin release or fire....he is applying shape transformation to the Amaterasu as far as I know Shape Transformation doesn't use any natures....see my point? --[[Special:Contributions/86.145.193.216|86.145.193.216]] ([[User talk:86.145.193.216|talk]]) 20:47, July 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
If he was using shape manipulation alone, it wouldn't be a new release ... but still a fire one. The most possibility is Amaterasu + Yin Release, but until confirmed, it's just a theory.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 21:11, July 21, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== two points ==
 
 
one: is this based on something from one of the fan books, and if so could someone put a reference there because it seems like all he did was learn how to manipulate the black flames and everyone just started calling it some new type of special release/nature.
 
 
two: for all the people arguing over what natures are included here, but the only thing I've seen is that it says he uses his other eye to manipulate the flames. So wouldn't that sort of shine a better light on how it's done, the fact he's using the eye that controls illusions to do it, rather than one very long page speculating about is it fire plus fire or fire plus lightning? I mean one of lightning thing is just weird, and fire plus fire is just... fire. But even the brief discription here seems to be largely speculative while presenting itself as affermative, saying we just don't know what nature is involved. It's the same black flames, he can just control them. Reading the article though, you wouldn't know that. It comes across like it's some great new nature manipulation that we just don't know anything about yet. I don't know where any of that came from, unless you want to consider the black flames nature manipulation to begin with. But frankly, since the sharingan abilities seem to almost all revolve around illusion and bridging the gap between illusion and reality, MY money's on the black flames and this being exactly the same. It's got more to do with genjutsu than fire. [[Special:Contributions/98.71.99.102|98.71.99.102]] ([[User talk:98.71.99.102|talk]]) 11:21, April 22, 2011 (UTC) miah
 
 
*one: Sasuke himself called it "Enton" or "blaze release"
 
*two:I don't remember anyone speculating the natures in the articles at least we don't do that. If it's there now it's vandalism. We don't know the mechanic of the technique so we can only add what we know for now
 
*three: tl;dr.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™☺]] 11:26, April 22, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
 
As far as speculating I was mostly talking about this talk page, but wouldn't the enton label apply to amaterasu in general, not just being able to manipulate/shape it? I mean that's like saying because kakashi's dog lightning thing is really shaped differently it's not lightning. It's still the same thing, he's just manipulating it so to be more specific I should say I take issue with calling simply the manipulation of amaterasu blaze release with no mention of it on the amaterasu page.
 
 
Even looking at the article though, I do think it's a bit over speculative: "Blaze Release... is an advanced chakra nature... It is unknown what this nature entails." And mostly because this is refering specifically to the manipulation of amaterasu, I think that bothers me. I would rather see this merged with amaterasu in general, with a mention of sasuke's ability to manipulate the flames using his other eye. Mostly because, manipulating an element doesn't make it another element, does it? I don't see the logic in calling it a new element just because he can shape and manipulate the flames when the flames themselves substance-wise don't seem to have changed at all. They're still the same black flames.
 
 
I did forget about that quick mention though, and I've not seen the anime episode where he says that, but at least in the manga I don't remember it actually showing him manipulating the flames, it just showed the flames on the sand afterward. Even looking at it again, I'd assume he was refering to amaterasu in general. [[Special:Contributions/98.71.99.102|98.71.99.102]] ([[User talk:98.71.99.102|talk]]) 12:25, April 22, 2011 (UTC)miah
 
:Friend, unless you have an issue with the two sentences that comprises the article, fine. Otherwise, this isn't a form. Also,please write less, no one is going to read that epistle.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™☺]] 13:03, April 22, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
1. I did criticize the article, it's about 80% of what I wrote. so obviously when you say no one will read it, you mean you're not going to read it. Either that or you didn't get past the first sentence.
 
2. My criticism about this page is basically that it sounds more like a forum, and a long one at that. So really? You're going to criticize my criticism of this talk page as sounding like a rambling forum, by telling me to keep it to myself because this isn't a forum?
 
3. An epistle? Were you reading the bible this morning or something? [[Special:Contributions/98.71.99.102|98.71.99.102]] ([[User talk:98.71.99.102|talk]]) 13:59, April 22, 2011 (UTC)miah
 
* I meant no one will fully read your talk page posts; your latter statement was accurate, i skimmed it.
 
* Although article talk pages are not supposed to be a place for "forum talk" you can't be serious in criticising it. That, to me, is ridiculous as long a none of it is translated to the article.
 
* [http://www.indy.com/photos/44417/post.jpg Halleluyerrr]--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™☺]] 14:11, April 22, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
That's an understandable point, but if I criticize it, it's because when they get so long arguing about nothing people are less likely to notice actual discussions about the article, and more likely to miss if their point has already been made. For the same reasons of length, no one wants to read all that about someone's silly theory about fire+lightning. My main point about the article though, is it simply seems like this page should be merged with the page about amaratsu, since in both the manga and anime it seems he only refered to his use of amaratsu as an enton, and his ability to manipulate it should be mentioned there. Plus I really don't like the speculative lines refering to it as an advanced chakra nature, simply because it's never been described as such.[[Special:Contributions/98.71.99.102|98.71.99.102]] ([[User talk:98.71.99.102|talk]]) 14:21, April 22, 2011 (UTC)miah
 
 
You could have avoided this whole topic if you had done your research a bit better. Everything said in the article is based on stuff we've seen in official sources. First, as pointed out already, we call it Blaze Release because Sasuke did. We call it an advanced nature because considering what we know from the manga, everything that's not the basic five, yin, or yang, is an advanced nature. We don't call Amaterasu itself a Blaze Release because it was explicitly called a Fire Release in databooks. We call shaping Amaterasu Blaze Release because shaping it was what Sasuke called Blaze Release. The "it is unknown what this nature entails" is our default sentence for showing we don't know which elements compose this nature, all other natures with unknown composition have it. No text that's out of talk pages and user sub pages suggests that blaze is composed of fire and lightning. The only thing in articles which points at that is the image in the nature transformation page, because we had to include Blaze Release somewhere, and according to what we know so far, advanced natures are made by combining basic natures, so fire and lightning, being the natures Sasuke has, is the least speculative option, and it has the question mark next to it denoting it's not a confirmed fact. Should more information be divulged about it, such as what makes it, or how it is made (if different from the mixing of basic natures), the relevant pages will be updated to reflect it. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 17:27, April 22, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
So basically you're saying it's largely based on assumption and opinion, the deciding factor as with most articles being simply whose opinion it is. The one time I heard this word used I don't remember seeing him shape anything, not even in the anime. It was just black flames on sand, so yes... that's an assumption. Just because you're basing it off the first databook calling it fire, did those databooks mention deidra was a blast element user? No? I guess that's not true then either. That's not to mention that it seems to completely avoid common sense in that moving something around has never been considered to make it a fancy new element. And yes, it's speculative to call it an unknown advanced element, because it assumes it's physically different from the black flames, and that seems to be based on nothing since I didn't see the flames do anything different when they hit someone. So yeah, I did do my research. It involved reading the one line about blaze release that absolutely never mentioned or showed it specifically refering to the ability to move the flames around. No, he never called his ability to manipulate the flames an enton. He said, I can't believe I had to block with an enton... refering, probably to the black flames you clearly see on the sand. Frankly the databooks, especially the first one, is hardly complete and unchallenged cannon. And you've still not said anything that isn't speculative youself, and frankly it doesn't make sense. And just to speculate, he probably added the name enton when he decided it was going to be able to be manipulated like a lot of other elements, just as he's been adding names to a lot of other things that didn't previously have names. [[Special:Contributions/98.71.99.102|98.71.99.102]] ([[User talk:98.71.99.102|talk]]) 00:17, April 23, 2011 (UTC)miah
 
 
Sasuke shaped the Amaterasu flames into the shield around Susanoo, and as the spikes, something C pointed out. Read those chapters again. As I said and as I'll say again: we are calling it an element because Sasuke called it an element, because the author of the series used the same naming structure that is used for many element techniques, using a new word for it. If you don't like it, send Masashi Kishimoto hate-mail, we're not the ones who made that. We still know very little on Blaze Release, and we are using the previously set rules for nature transformation. Do I like that Sasuke suddenly called it a new element? No, I don't, look at the mess it made, but I will list it because this is what we do here, we document the series. The big deal about Blaze, according to what other characters have mentioned, is the fine control Sasuke has over it. C was very specific about noticing that Sasuke creates the flames with one eye and manipulates them with the other. So until Kishimoto says Blaze was just Sasuke's fancy and boastful way of saying Fire Release, we will list it as an advanced nature. Your research then was flawed, as you obviously missed Sasuke using the term Blaze Release when using "Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi", which consists in shaping Amaterasu into spikes. Databooks are a source of information, and once more, your research is flawed, because the first databook has nothing to do with Amaterasu, which got an entry in the second databook, and was explicitly called a Fire Release in the third databook. Databooks only cover things up to the point of the story was in when they were published you know? Show me other things Sasuke named just because then. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 00:53, April 23, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
== Question ==
 
 
So I'm confused. Is Amaterasu Blaze Release, or manipulating Amaterasu Blaze Release? {{unsigned|24.129.58.16}}
 
:From what we have so far:
 
::Amaterasu → Fire Release.
 
::Shaping Amaterasu → Blaze Release. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 21:25, July 7, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
Okay thanks. I wasn't sure and sorry I forgot to sign it. [[Special:Contributions/24.129.58.16|24.129.58.16]] ([[User talk:24.129.58.16|talk]]) 21:32, July 7, 2011 (UTC)Joey
 
 
Honestly it just seems like he's manipulating the black flames. I see how it's a kekkei genkai but that's only because it's by extension a sharingan technique but still I don't see the assumption behind it being a mixture of any other chakra nautre besides Amateratsu. I'm not saying it should be changed, but maybe modified to expalin the fact that we just don't know what it actually is or if it's even a diffrent nature to begin with the whole article sounds like one big assumption.--[[User:Hordy4040|Hordy4040]] ([[User talk:Hordy4040|talk]]) 06:23, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
: There is no assumption of it being a mixture of any other chakra nature. Sasuke simply calls it Blaze Release. We don't know why he calls it that; it could simply be that he called it that just because it sounded good to him. Perhaps in some future chapter or databook, Kishi will explain what Blaze Release does or does not entail, but right now, we know the following;
 
 
# Sasuke calls it Blaze Release.
 
# It clearly involves [[Shape Transformation|controlling the shape]] of the black flames.
 
# It uses his right eye instead of the left one.
 
 
From that, we can deduce what is on this page using common sense. '''[[User:Ten Tailed Fox|<font color="#008000" face="Verdana">Captain Jack Sparrow</font>]]''' [[User talk:Ten Tailed Fox|<font color="#008000" face="Verdana"><small>(Captain's Logs)</small></font>]] 06:31, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
== Two in one ==
 
 
If Blaze is an advance chakra nature, it must combine Sasuke's Lightning and Fire natures to make it. Its the only loical answer. {{unsigned|Forgetful 10th doctor fan}}
 
 
:Countless discussions about this have been passed, and I'm sure most ended in "this is speculation." Although it is logical to some degree, we just don't know because that's not how [[C]] said it works, he said Sasuke was altering the form of the flames to use it. I'm not saying that it's wrong, as it may be true, but we don't know yet. It's speculation. Also, please sign your posts. --[[Special:Contributions/96.49.138.212|96.49.138.212]] ([[User talk:96.49.138.212|talk]]) 22:27, August 3, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
Even if it might seem logical to you, its not something that should be put in the article, or anywhere else for that matter. Besides, it doesnt seem logical to me at all.
 
# Why would adding lightning to Amaterasu make you able to change the shape. If Amaterasu was the Blaze release i could see the reason for it being fire + lightning, however Amaterasu is as far as we know just plain old fire.
 
# Its more or less random that Sasuke can do lightning realease. It just because his old sensei Kakashi could do so, and chose to teach him. While we can not be sure of this, my therory is that if you have a advanced nature realease, you will show some kind of afliction towards both natures.
 
# Seeing as he uses his right eye to do the control, and seeing that this is the eye he normaly uses to cast genjutsu with, i would say it would be more plausible that blaze is Fire + Yin (genjustu being yin (or yin being genjustu, thats not completely clear yet)) also taking into account that yin can "can be used to create form out of nothingness". The only thing that voices agians this therory is that so far no andvanced nature using yin or yang has been confirmed, but seeing as we recently got a confirmed Yin element user, ill say we are one sted closer.
 
 
Just to make thins clear, im not saying that my therories belongs in any article, cause they are still just therories, and might not be one bit truer than yours, im trying to say that Fire and Lightning is not the only logical answer --[[User:Cosmikaze|Cosmikaze]] ([[User talk:Cosmikaze|talk]]) 13:56, August 5, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
== Diffrents ==
 
 
whats the diffrent between Blaze Release and the Flame of Ameterasu ? i cant know the rigth thing , since sasuke said to gaara that he is able to dodge his "Enton" which exactly the Ameterasu that Sasuke use --[[User:KyoyaCloudX|KyoyaCloudX]] ([[User talk:KyoyaCloudX|talk]]) 13:05, August 14, 2011 (UTC)
 
:We don't have all the information on Blaze Release, but from what we know it's when Sasuke modifies Amaterasu to do things like bend it around the Susanoo's bones and such.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]] [[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 13:34, August 14, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
: What modification was performed when attacking Gaara?
 
:[[User:Randy Michael|Randy Michael]] ([[User talk:Randy Michael|talk]]) 14:13, September 4, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
== why is it considered a nature type? ==
 
 
all sasuke does is manipulate the flames.it's like calling when Naruto throws his rasen shuriken a Naruto nature type just because he throws it. if it's one of those things that we have no decision over then i'll forget about it,but if there's a reason i'd like to know it. {{unsigned|Rildey}}
 
:Enton literal means Blaze Release, not Blaze Control. Usually words ending with the suffix -ton are chakra natures. It's possible it may not be a chakra nature and could just be the way Sasuke decided to name it, but right now we don't know.--'''''[[User talk:Deva 27|Deva]] [[Special:Contributions/Deva 27|27]]''''' 04:08, September 22, 2011 (UTC)
 
::I apologise in advance, because in my head, this will come off as rude. If you would bother looking up discussions about Blaze Release, you'd see that this questions has been debated at length in several different talk pages, and is available for reading in several talk page articles, which I will not be linking here because I want you to have the decency of looking up before making such edits. And you've been told to start signing your posts already, start doing it. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 20:34, September 22, 2011 (UTC)
 
 
i was just wondering if there was any new evidence to show it a was a nature type or a real reason it's considered a nature type. {{unsigned|Rildey}}
 
 
== Still Don't Understand ==
 
 
I'm still baffled as to why it is thought that Blaze Release entails another nature. Didn't C say that it was simply the manipulation of Amaterasu? That doesn't really seem to imply any added natures. Yes I know we're going to wait for further elaboration, I was just curious. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 03:33, October 7, 2011 (UTC)
 
:Because things that begin as "X Release" are natures. I'm still holding out for this being a Yin/Fire combo. But let's cut this here, otherwise we'll have another behemoth section about an already exhausted topic. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 03:40, October 7, 2011 (UTC)
 
:: Just because it's a nature dosen't mean it has to be a combination of two natures. Sasuke just uses shape transformation with Amateratsu, like he do with Chidori to create Chidori Current, Chidori Senbon and Chidori Sharp Spear. Would you say that's a combination of Lighting and another nature because of that? Blaze Release is simply Amateratsu combined with Shape Transformation, at least until Kishimoto confirms something else. I seriosuly don't get why ppl keeps insisting that it's a combination of two natures.[[User:KenjiNitari|KenjiNitari]] ([[User talk:KenjiNitari|talk]]) 21:25, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Susano Blaze release ==
 
 
Should Sasukes susanos ability to supply the flames for Blaze release be edited into this article and should the ability to create tomoe shaped blaze attacks have its own page similar to how 'Shield of Black Flames' did? --[[User:Kotoamatsukami|Kotoamatsukami]] ([[User talk:Kotoamatsukami|talk]]) 13:50, February 15, 2012 (UTC)
 
:This is something I believe should be properly discussed first. While I believe an "Amaterasu sword" article might make itself necessary in the future should Sasuke use it again, I think that the tomoe thing should be handled more carefully, since what Sasuke did seemed like an Amaterasu version of Yasaka Magatama. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 14:37, February 15, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
::The "Amaterasu sword" is being treated as the arrows being used as a sword.
 
::The shape used does resemble tomoe as does Yasaka Magatama but there is no doubt that Sasuke is using shape manipulation on Amaterasu to create that shape which is considered blaze release. I think it does require its own article just like the other blaze jutsu.
 
 
::I am unsure however if this article should have information on how Sasuke can use his susano as a source for Blaze release.
 
--[[User:Kotoamatsukami|Kotoamatsukami]] ([[User talk:Kotoamatsukami|talk]]) 18:29, February 15, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
== Second element? ==
 
 
I dont think the part saying that ''the second element is unknown'' should remain as blaze release has been explained as just being Amaterasu having shape manipulation applied to it as shown in the manga. It is misguiding to presume another element is involved and it could confuse people.
 
 
Also I'm wondering if Sasukes Susano possessing the orb where Blaze release jutsu can be performed from should be mentioned as it is unique and directly affects this element in how it can function.
 
--[[User:Kotoamatsukami|Kotoamatsukami]] ([[User talk:Kotoamatsukami|talk]]) 14:44, February 27, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
It's there because advanced natures were said to be made by blending two basic natures. The only canon exception to this is Dust Release, which combines three natures. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 15:53, February 27, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
Its been made clear however that its not the case with blaze and that was said before this element came about. Its status as an advanced nature has not been confirmed and given how it works it seems to stand alone in its function. Its been explained how it works and no reason or anything indicates it requires a second nature, especially how the flames themselves have taken no new qualities of a second nature.
+
Latest chapter has proven an old theory that was argued to death here. Basically:
  +
* Amaterasu is Blaze Release
  +
* Kagatsuchi and Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi are 2 different techniques
  +
* Kagatsuchi can alter only flames cast by Amaterasu, therefore both eyes are required
  +
* While Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi uses only 1 eye and is Amaterasu+Kagatsuchi--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 11:54, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
   
Going by it needs a second nature is going with pre-dated info and unestablished speculation or it being a advanced element so ''needs'' another element despite its function being explained.
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:There's no distinction to be made between ''"Kagutsuchi "'', and ''" Enton: Kagutsuchi "''; left eye's dōryoku—Amaterasu—is always necessary for Enton's creation.
   
As its been seen and explained on how the blaze is used its only misguiding to presume another nature is in effect.
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:That aside, if this gets the rest of you to finally acknowledge Amaterasu's black flames as Enton, then happy day, I guess. —「[[User Talk:SaiST|'''SaiST''']]」<sup>[[File:Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg|15px|link=Special:Contributions/SaiST]]</sup> 12:05, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
   
--[[User:Kotoamatsukami|Kotoamatsukami]] ([[User talk:Kotoamatsukami|talk]]) 16:04, February 27, 2012 (UTC)
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::1) How did last chapter prove that? Especially since it was used exactly the same as it always has.
  +
::2) I don't see how you came from that. It was used, again exactly as it always has. He just didn't put the entire name in the panel.
  +
::3) ....We knew this. Forever ago. I believe it was C or someone that stated he casts Amaterasu from left eye and Blaze Release from right. So...yay for being right again?
  +
::4) I don't even know what this point is trying to say.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 12:09, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
   
No, it hasn't. Matter of fact, other than its name and that it involves manipulating Amaterasu, nothing has been said on Blaze Release. No new information on it has been given, and this topic will go nowhere, so just read the previous discussions. Yes, this is lousy topic, and I wish Blaze Release had never come into existence, because it's so dissimilar to what we came to expect from nature transformations. We go by what was said on nature transformations, until a canonical source explicitly says this is not a combination. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 16:25, February 27, 2012 (UTC)
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There's plenty of instances where Sasuke has one eye closed and only one open and uses Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi and creates the flames with shape without having cast them with Amaterasu first and then shaped them. While this time, he used Amaterasu and then Kagatsuchi--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:11, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
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:Care to provide when? The only one I have from recent memory where is actually closing his eye was when A was about to drop kick him to hell and back, and that time he already had Susanoo on blackfire.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 12:14, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
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::And by recent memory I mean my memory.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 12:17, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
  +
:::There hasn't been a single instance in which we have witnessed Sasuke use his right eye alone to create the black flames. Many are still making the mistake of using the example from Chapter 641 as proof of it's Nature Transformation, when we were only seeing him '''continue''' to use his right eye's ocular power to accomplish what he said he intended to do in the preceding page: match Naruto's chakra output. This was '''after''' the flames were already present.
   
Fair enough, what about the other thing i said " Also I'm wondering if Sasukes Susano possessing the orb where Blaze release jutsu can be performed from should be mentioned as it is unique and directly affects this element in how it can function. "
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:::Sasuke's use of Kagutsuchi in this Chapter is no different than when he used it's first '''named''' example in Chapter 464, and that was called ''"'''Blaze Release''': Kagutsuchi"''. There's no need to fabricate a discrepancy between Kagutsuchi with and without it's Nature Release prefix. —「[[User Talk:SaiST|'''SaiST''']]」<sup>[[File:Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg|15px|link=Special:Contributions/SaiST]]</sup> 12:25, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
--[[User:Kotoamatsukami|Kotoamatsukami]] ([[User talk:Kotoamatsukami|talk]]) 15:24, February 29, 2012 (UTC)
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::::And I'd like to point out once again that I find the notion of Blaze Release being Amaterasu's manipulated flames ridiculous. Shape Transformation does not make a Nature Release. —「[[User Talk:SaiST|'''SaiST''']]」<sup>[[File:Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg|15px|link=Special:Contributions/SaiST]]</sup> 12:28, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
:Sasuke has used Blaze Release without the orb, so I don't think it's essential to mention it. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 21:37, February 29, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
:People have used earth release with and without earth but we still mention both. I see no reason not to and all reason to do so, he's shown two uses of it so far that haven't been done without it; the sword/bow and the tomoes. Something like this that directly effects the element should be mentioned as it explains how it can be used in different ways.
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Except Obito absorbed the Amaterasu in chapter 641 so there were no flames present when he used Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi, also chapter 632--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 12:38, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
--[[User:Kotoamatsukami|Kotoamatsukami]] ([[User talk:Kotoamatsukami|talk]]) 16:02, March 1, 2012 (UTC)
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:We witness him using his right eye alone '''after''' the black flames are already present around his left hand in the preceding panel. That is not sufficient proof of his right eye being capable of creating Blaze Release. Amaterasu's Nature Transformation is always involved when we see him suddenly springing up the black flames as he's exclaiming ''"Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi"''. This is the first time the author's demonstrated Amaterasu's part in this cooperation of Sasuke's two ocular powers, and I believe that is only due to the limited circumstance he was put in—because of the minuscule time frame in which they're used together, we normally don't see it.
   
:What do you mean by "People have used earth release with and without earth" Also, it's the simple fact that it's called a "release" not to be presumptive in any way it's just a way to standardise the wikia and the information on it. Not because people assume it's something different means we should treat it different that any other thing called "release" until more information is available. No matter what you do that won't change, it's simply one of the ways to have the information following a pattern.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 17:24, March 4, 2012 (UTC)
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:If anything, this chapter lends credence to what I tried explaining to you guys in the archived discussion. If Kagutsuchi alone could simply create the black flames from his body, or chakra, why cast Amaterasu in such close proximity? Because it's '''necessary'''. —「[[User Talk:SaiST|'''SaiST''']]」<sup>[[File:Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg|15px|link=Special:Contributions/SaiST]]</sup> 12:50, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
  +
::Yes, to me it is more than sufficient proof. In chapter 641 on one page there's no flame in his hand, while on another there suddenly is and you just '''assume''' that he '''must have''' cast the Amaterasu off the screen. Same in chapter 632, you simply assume that he cast Amaterasu off-panel prior to using Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi and saving Sakura. Assumptions aren't evidence--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:15, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
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:::On the same token Elveonora, you assume that because it was shown offscreen, that it didn't happen. How many times have Naruto slammed a Rasengan at something, but never showed us forming the Rasengan? Did the Rasengan magically appear in his hand or did he use it offscreen The leverage SaiST has however of now actually seeing the combined efforts of casting Kagutsuchi, instead of just the Kagutsuchi part.?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:24, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
  +
::::Ironically, that example of the Rasengan's formation and additional hands mirrors the situation we now have with Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi, and I brought that up a number of times in the archived discussion.
   
::That they have created their own earth for jutsu instead of using it from the ground. Just like Sasuke has created flames for blaze release but also used them from the orb. I see it worth mentioning so it gives a better understanding to people about this element.
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::::I'm '''assuming''' that both dōryoku are being used in tandem, because their roles have long been '''officially detailed to us'''; his right eye's creation of Blaze Release not being among them. —「[[User Talk:SaiST|'''SaiST''']]」<sup>[[File:Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg|15px|link=Special:Contributions/SaiST]]</sup> 13:31, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
::[[User:Kotoamatsukami|Kotoamatsukami]] ([[User talk:Kotoamatsukami|talk]]) 18:17, March 4, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
==Itachi==
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So you mean to tell me that the "blaze release" gets omitted for no reason in particular and in the very chapter where we are actually shown black flame manipulation with Amaterasu and Kagatsuchi in a row and that the same was done in previous chapters but the Amaterasu was simply used off-screen... right. Either of us is paranoid :P But I'm an atheist, I believe in only what I can perceive and that being:
Shouldn't Itachi be added as an Enton user too? When C saw Sasuke using his Enton-shield he wondered wether Sasuke is more skilled at it than Itachi, meaning that Itachi can do the same. {{unsigned|FirePit}}
 
:Nope. Itachi could only shoot Amaterasu, and let it go out by stop using it. Blaze Release as it is understood so far includes actual manipulation of the flames. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 18:01, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 
yeah I know but C made that comment when he saw Sasuke manipulating the Amaterasu, so when he used Enton. I think Itachi could use it but simply never did it onscreen [[User:FirePit|FirePit]] ([[User talk:FirePit|talk]]) 20:42, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 
   
Speculations--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 20:50, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
+
* Usage of Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi without the Amaterasu having been shown to be cast prior and even in one instance only 1 of Sasuke's eyes shown open
  +
* This time Amaterasu is cast and then a technique called Kagatsuchi (without the blaze release part) is used to manipulate it
  +
* Therefore there's 2 ways to do it in my book--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 13:51, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
   
That's why I posted here, I wanted to discuss wether C's hint is enough to determine wether Itachi can use it or not because to me it clearly sounded as if C saw Itachi using Enton and compaired it with Sasuke's Enton. [[User:FirePit|FirePit]] ([[User talk:FirePit|talk]]) 20:52, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
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Home, sweet home~<br />
  +
Okay, so we have a new chapter and we have Sasuke using Amaterasu and afterwards Kagutsuchi. What we do not have is a Blaze Release prefix. This is the first time this has happened and either it's a mistake and we'll know it when the tankobon version is released, or it's intentional. Since there's no way for us to know if it's a mistake or not, we handle it as a fact.<br />
  +
Why is there no Blaze Release here? The answer is as obvious as it can get: There is no need to release the flames anymore, since Sasuke's done that with Amaterasu already.<br />
  +
This also confirms that Amaterasu is indeed Blaze Release, since the Kagutsuchi is what manipulates it. Any questions? • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 19:37, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
   
People at the summit only recognized Amaterasu. If the basic manipulation of Amaterasu prompted C to say he was better than Itachi, that would mean Itachi couldn't do any manipulation at all. This isn't a direct thing, like Madara telling people Hashirama could use great medical ninjutsu. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 22:38, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
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Oh great. This again. This chapter did nothing new, we already knew everything that happened in it as far as Blaze Release is concerned. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 19:47, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
   
Ah okay[[User:FirePit|FirePit]] ([[User talk:FirePit|talk]]) 22:31, June 17, 2012 (UTC)
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I think we should just document things as they come and what they appear to be at a time rather than dodging something forever and waiting for definitively definitive "proof" that may never come. And yes, we should also rationalize the information we are given, because we are humans and not bots/computers. And as such, it's more logical to assume that there's a reason for no Blaze Release prefix than that it is a mistake or was omitted for no reason in particular, even though it was always there the past 10 times or more the technique got used. It's all too coincidental that in the same chapter as it is omitted in, we are also shown for the first time Sasuke using Amaterasu beforehand rather than just Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi. And I don't eat the "amaterasu was used offpanel" theory. Surely Kishi could reserve a tiny panel for the Amaterasus if they were used, which I insist they weren't.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 19:54, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Game Debut ==
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:Wait, so now that you can finally turn Amaterasu into a Blaze Release, the suffix doesn't matter? Godsdamnit people, nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, we haven't seen a hundred times before occurred in this chapter. Except Naruto Man Flashing Kaguya. That was new. But seriously, nothing has changed. Absolutely nothing at all. We knew, from the godsdamned get go of when Sasuke pulled Blaze Release out his butt, that it was cast from one eye, and then manipulated with the other. Like seriously you two, you two will beat a dead dolphin horse until it bursts if you could.
Which game did Blaze Release appear in first? Kunoichi, I'd appreciate it if others answered, since I already know what you will be replying with, but you have no source to confirm it, only that Impact came before Generations but that just doesn't mean Blaze Release appeared in Impact. :/ --[[User:Speysider|Speysider]] <sup><small>[[User_talk:Speysider|Talk Page]] | [[User:Speysider/Images|My Image Uploads]] | [[User:Speysider/Tabber Code|Tabber Code]] | [[w:c:supersajuuk|My Wiki]] | [http://youtube.com/user/SuperSajuuk Channel]</small></sup> 20:49, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
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:Nothing new was done in this chapter. Nothing is changed. The end. And yes, this is the end. You'll have a leg to stand on when Kishimoto finally goes "Blaze Release: Amaterasu". Until then. This ends. Go pick something else to break.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 20:08, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
:I think Blaze Release first appear in Impact, look at [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fcMQkkeVLQ this video] it shows Sasuke manipulating the flames of Amaterasu. -[[User:White Flash|<span style="color: #B0C4DE;">'''''White Flash'''''</span>]]-[[User talk:White Flash|<span style="font-size:90%; color: #B0C4DE">(Talk)</span>]]- 20:58, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
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::So Chidori isn't Raiton, since it's no Lightning Release: Chidori ;) Kagatsuchi is the manipulation of black flames, that much you can agree on. But manipulation of something isn't a new nature. Therefore what it manipulates must be the nature, so Amaterasu is Blaze Release, doesn't take a genius to figure out imo--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 20:14, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
::Thanks WF! :) --[[User:Speysider|Speysider]] <sup><small>[[User_talk:Speysider|Talk Page]] | [[User:Speysider/Images|My Image Uploads]] | [[User:Speysider/Tabber Code|Tabber Code]] | [[w:c:supersajuuk|My Wiki]] | [http://youtube.com/user/SuperSajuuk Channel]</small></sup> 21:06, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
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:::Elvenora. I literally cannot pretend to care enough about your argument anymore. Because that argument has not changed in the last year you've tried it. As I said, it's done. Not going to change until Kishimoto actually tells us otherwise. The end.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 20:19, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
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::::Your reactions haven't changed over the years either, they are still as much worth it as ever.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 20:20, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
   
== Not a Kekkai Genkai ==
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''that it was cast from one eye, and then manipulated with the other.'' - but that is not the case. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 21:38, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
   
Its not a kekkai genkai. These are things that can be used through the mangekyo sharingan, a different kekkai genkai, a dojutsu. the only two i can think of that use amaterasu are Sasuke and Itachi. Someone please acknowledge this and remove this as a kekkai genkai. [[Special:Contributions/192.183.30.172|192.183.30.172]] ([[User talk:192.183.30.172|talk]]) 03:24, January 29, 2013 (UTC)Adam
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Does Naruto put wind release every time he uses the rasenshuriken? Seriously, this is just ridiculous. Nothing has changed. [[User:MangekyoSasuke|MangekyoSasuke]] ([[User talk:MangekyoSasuke|talk]]) 21:28, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
:Friend you need to go read what a [[kekkei genkai]] is, and then reassess what you just posted.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 06:02, January 29, 2013 (UTC)
 
:Sharingan is a kekkei genkai too, so all of it's powers fall into the kekkei genkai category --[[User:FirePit|FirePit]] ([[User talk:FirePit|talk]]) 19:13, January 29, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
If you're wondering what happened to the extra discussion there used to be at this point, kindly refer to the big warning at the top of this talk page. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 20:30, February 4, 2013 (UTC)
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Kishimoto likes to contratict himself. He makes the scenarios how they suit him best. We saw Sasuke using Amaterasu with the left and then Kagutsuchi with the right. But didn't we see Sasuke using and shaping the black flames when his eyes were bonded? Of course, Kagutsuchi manipulates the flames which he created with Amaterasu as well, but that doesn't mean that he can't create them without Amaterasu, since he was shown to activate Susanoo with the orb of black flames without the usage of Amaterasau, even when his eyes were BONDED. This is CANON. And Kishimoto is STUPID. Lol. --[[User:Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi|Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi]] ([[User talk:Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi|talk]]) 11:42, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
:The short version why this is considered a kekkei genkai:
 
:* Techniques with the format "X Release"/"X遁" are elemental techniques → Blaze Release is an elemental technique.
 
:* Techniques other than fire, wind, lightning, water, earth, yin and yang are what we call "advanced natures" → Blaze Release is an elemental technique.
 
:* Advanced natures are acquired either through kekkei genkai/tōta (all of them) or through a tailed beast skill (only example is Lava Release) → Blaze Release is acquired through one of those methods.
 
:* Sasuke does not have a tailed beast sealed into him → Sasuke acquired Blaze Release through a kekkei genkai.
 
:Blaze Release appears to be to Mangekyō what Mangekyō is to the regular Sharingan: simply a specialised technique within an already specialised technique. Mangekyō has its own article, but it's still Sharingan. Until Kishimoto explicitly and precisely explains what Blaze Release is and how it does or does not work, we go by previously established rationale. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 22:17, February 4, 2013 (UTC)
 
   
: ok you put your arguments in an easy way to understand, so i'll do the same
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:As I said to you multiple times in the archived discussion, the ability to create and shape Blaze Release are being made manifest through Sasuke's Susanoō. S'why we consider it an alternate source of the black flames. —「[[User Talk:SaiST|'''SaiST''']]」<sup>[[File:Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg|15px|link=Special:Contributions/SaiST]]</sup> 16:14, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
:* The only person to even call it "Release" was Sasuke and maybe the people he told it to. He named it himself. It is known that not all characters of the manga are correct in their assessment of things.
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::So the black flames of Amaterasu are no Blaze Release, with Blaze being black flames? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 16:25, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
:* It is only an ability of the Mangekyo, nothing special enough to get its own category. By the logic presented, you would have to consider other abilities as kekkai genkai, too, such as Kakashi's space-time ninjutsu eye, susanoo, and amaterasu itself.
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:::No, we've always been on the same page in this respect. Amaterasu's black flames are Blaze Release. The conflict here has only been about how Kagutsuchi is used... Honestly, a large part of that former discussion should have been held in Kagutsuchi's Talk Page. :/ —「[[User Talk:SaiST|'''SaiST''']]」<sup>[[File:Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg|15px|link=Special:Contributions/SaiST]]</sup> 16:29, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
:* It only contains amaterasu, so only one type of change in nature: fire. You can consider Blaze Release as a change in chakra form.
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::::Okay, and Blaze Release is the release of the black flames, right? [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 16:33, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
: not as related to this specific page, but I don't even consider mangekyo as its own kekkai genkai, just as a subsection of the sharingan. i let that one go though since it has so many subsections and abilities limited to specifically the mangekyo
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:::::Yes, creation of black flames. You are now seeing the lack of that prefix upon Kagutsuchi(I'm assuming that was true in the raw text, if you're bringing it up now) as an indication of it's inclusion alluding to the right eye's creation of the black flames. My retort in this current discussion has been that it was seen with that prefix in it's first named example in the beginning of 464, where Sasuke was manipulating flames that were already present. —「[[User Talk:SaiST|'''SaiST''']]」<sup>[[File:Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg|15px|link=Special:Contributions/SaiST]]</sup> 16:37, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
  +
::::::I agree, he did that. So you don't need to create black flames to control them with Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi. But if the Blaze Release is about creating the black flames, then the Kagutsuchi part would be about the shape manipulation, wouldn't it? This was (in my eyes) confirmed by the last chapter and Sasuke's use of Kagutsuchi. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 16:50, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
   
(also i got rid of some sentences in my previous posts that were bugging me. not a big deal)
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:::::For the record, part of me hates even arguing this with you, as I WANT the black flames to be classified here properly. I just can't agree to Kagutsuchi's creation of them. —「[[User Talk:SaiST|'''SaiST''']]」<sup>[[File:Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg|15px|link=Special:Contributions/SaiST]]</sup> 16:42, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
There are my main arguments. if i can think of others, i may come back and add to it. [[Special:Contributions/192.183.30.172|192.183.30.172]] ([[User talk:192.183.30.172|talk]]) 22:35, February 4, 2013 (UTC)Adam
 

Latest revision as of 16:50, June 28, 2014

QUESTIONS REGARDING TOPICS ALREADY IN THE TALK PAGE OR ITS ARCHIVES WILL BE REMOVED, ALONG WITH THE REPLIES TO IT

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long story short Edit

Latest chapter has proven an old theory that was argued to death here. Basically:

  • Amaterasu is Blaze Release
  • Kagatsuchi and Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi are 2 different techniques
  • Kagatsuchi can alter only flames cast by Amaterasu, therefore both eyes are required
  • While Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi uses only 1 eye and is Amaterasu+Kagatsuchi--Elveonora (talk) 11:54, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
There's no distinction to be made between "Kagutsuchi ", and " Enton: Kagutsuchi "; left eye's dōryoku—Amaterasu—is always necessary for Enton's creation.
That aside, if this gets the rest of you to finally acknowledge Amaterasu's black flames as Enton, then happy day, I guess. —「SaiST Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal) 12:05, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
1) How did last chapter prove that? Especially since it was used exactly the same as it always has.
2) I don't see how you came from that. It was used, again exactly as it always has. He just didn't put the entire name in the panel.
3) ....We knew this. Forever ago. I believe it was C or someone that stated he casts Amaterasu from left eye and Blaze Release from right. So...yay for being right again?
4) I don't even know what this point is trying to say.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:09, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

There's plenty of instances where Sasuke has one eye closed and only one open and uses Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi and creates the flames with shape without having cast them with Amaterasu first and then shaped them. While this time, he used Amaterasu and then Kagatsuchi--Elveonora (talk) 12:11, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

Care to provide when? The only one I have from recent memory where is actually closing his eye was when A was about to drop kick him to hell and back, and that time he already had Susanoo on blackfire.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:14, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
And by recent memory I mean my memory.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 12:17, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
There hasn't been a single instance in which we have witnessed Sasuke use his right eye alone to create the black flames. Many are still making the mistake of using the example from Chapter 641 as proof of it's Nature Transformation, when we were only seeing him continue to use his right eye's ocular power to accomplish what he said he intended to do in the preceding page: match Naruto's chakra output. This was after the flames were already present.
Sasuke's use of Kagutsuchi in this Chapter is no different than when he used it's first named example in Chapter 464, and that was called "Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi". There's no need to fabricate a discrepancy between Kagutsuchi with and without it's Nature Release prefix. —「SaiST Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal) 12:25, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
And I'd like to point out once again that I find the notion of Blaze Release being Amaterasu's manipulated flames ridiculous. Shape Transformation does not make a Nature Release. —「SaiST Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal) 12:28, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

Except Obito absorbed the Amaterasu in chapter 641 so there were no flames present when he used Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi, also chapter 632--Elveonora (talk) 12:38, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

We witness him using his right eye alone after the black flames are already present around his left hand in the preceding panel. That is not sufficient proof of his right eye being capable of creating Blaze Release. Amaterasu's Nature Transformation is always involved when we see him suddenly springing up the black flames as he's exclaiming "Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi". This is the first time the author's demonstrated Amaterasu's part in this cooperation of Sasuke's two ocular powers, and I believe that is only due to the limited circumstance he was put in—because of the minuscule time frame in which they're used together, we normally don't see it.
If anything, this chapter lends credence to what I tried explaining to you guys in the archived discussion. If Kagutsuchi alone could simply create the black flames from his body, or chakra, why cast Amaterasu in such close proximity? Because it's necessary. —「SaiST Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal) 12:50, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, to me it is more than sufficient proof. In chapter 641 on one page there's no flame in his hand, while on another there suddenly is and you just assume that he must have cast the Amaterasu off the screen. Same in chapter 632, you simply assume that he cast Amaterasu off-panel prior to using Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi and saving Sakura. Assumptions aren't evidence--Elveonora (talk) 13:15, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
On the same token Elveonora, you assume that because it was shown offscreen, that it didn't happen. How many times have Naruto slammed a Rasengan at something, but never showed us forming the Rasengan? Did the Rasengan magically appear in his hand or did he use it offscreen The leverage SaiST has however of now actually seeing the combined efforts of casting Kagutsuchi, instead of just the Kagutsuchi part.?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 13:24, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
Ironically, that example of the Rasengan's formation and additional hands mirrors the situation we now have with Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi, and I brought that up a number of times in the archived discussion.
I'm assuming that both dōryoku are being used in tandem, because their roles have long been officially detailed to us; his right eye's creation of Blaze Release not being among them. —「SaiST Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal) 13:31, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

So you mean to tell me that the "blaze release" gets omitted for no reason in particular and in the very chapter where we are actually shown black flame manipulation with Amaterasu and Kagatsuchi in a row and that the same was done in previous chapters but the Amaterasu was simply used off-screen... right. Either of us is paranoid :P But I'm an atheist, I believe in only what I can perceive and that being:

  • Usage of Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi without the Amaterasu having been shown to be cast prior and even in one instance only 1 of Sasuke's eyes shown open
  • This time Amaterasu is cast and then a technique called Kagatsuchi (without the blaze release part) is used to manipulate it
  • Therefore there's 2 ways to do it in my book--Elveonora (talk) 13:51, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

Home, sweet home~
Okay, so we have a new chapter and we have Sasuke using Amaterasu and afterwards Kagutsuchi. What we do not have is a Blaze Release prefix. This is the first time this has happened and either it's a mistake and we'll know it when the tankobon version is released, or it's intentional. Since there's no way for us to know if it's a mistake or not, we handle it as a fact.
Why is there no Blaze Release here? The answer is as obvious as it can get: There is no need to release the flames anymore, since Sasuke's done that with Amaterasu already.
This also confirms that Amaterasu is indeed Blaze Release, since the Kagutsuchi is what manipulates it. Any questions? • Seelentau 愛 19:37, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

Oh great. This again. This chapter did nothing new, we already knew everything that happened in it as far as Blaze Release is concerned. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:47, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

I think we should just document things as they come and what they appear to be at a time rather than dodging something forever and waiting for definitively definitive "proof" that may never come. And yes, we should also rationalize the information we are given, because we are humans and not bots/computers. And as such, it's more logical to assume that there's a reason for no Blaze Release prefix than that it is a mistake or was omitted for no reason in particular, even though it was always there the past 10 times or more the technique got used. It's all too coincidental that in the same chapter as it is omitted in, we are also shown for the first time Sasuke using Amaterasu beforehand rather than just Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi. And I don't eat the "amaterasu was used offpanel" theory. Surely Kishi could reserve a tiny panel for the Amaterasus if they were used, which I insist they weren't.--Elveonora (talk) 19:54, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

Wait, so now that you can finally turn Amaterasu into a Blaze Release, the suffix doesn't matter? Godsdamnit people, nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, we haven't seen a hundred times before occurred in this chapter. Except Naruto Man Flashing Kaguya. That was new. But seriously, nothing has changed. Absolutely nothing at all. We knew, from the godsdamned get go of when Sasuke pulled Blaze Release out his butt, that it was cast from one eye, and then manipulated with the other. Like seriously you two, you two will beat a dead dolphin horse until it bursts if you could.
Nothing new was done in this chapter. Nothing is changed. The end. And yes, this is the end. You'll have a leg to stand on when Kishimoto finally goes "Blaze Release: Amaterasu". Until then. This ends. Go pick something else to break.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 20:08, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
So Chidori isn't Raiton, since it's no Lightning Release: Chidori ;) Kagatsuchi is the manipulation of black flames, that much you can agree on. But manipulation of something isn't a new nature. Therefore what it manipulates must be the nature, so Amaterasu is Blaze Release, doesn't take a genius to figure out imo--Elveonora (talk) 20:14, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
Elvenora. I literally cannot pretend to care enough about your argument anymore. Because that argument has not changed in the last year you've tried it. As I said, it's done. Not going to change until Kishimoto actually tells us otherwise. The end.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol (talk) 20:19, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
Your reactions haven't changed over the years either, they are still as much worth it as ever.--Elveonora (talk) 20:20, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

that it was cast from one eye, and then manipulated with the other. - but that is not the case. • Seelentau 愛 21:38, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

Does Naruto put wind release every time he uses the rasenshuriken? Seriously, this is just ridiculous. Nothing has changed. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 21:28, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

Kishimoto likes to contratict himself. He makes the scenarios how they suit him best. We saw Sasuke using Amaterasu with the left and then Kagutsuchi with the right. But didn't we see Sasuke using and shaping the black flames when his eyes were bonded? Of course, Kagutsuchi manipulates the flames which he created with Amaterasu as well, but that doesn't mean that he can't create them without Amaterasu, since he was shown to activate Susanoo with the orb of black flames without the usage of Amaterasau, even when his eyes were BONDED. This is CANON. And Kishimoto is STUPID. Lol. --Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi (talk) 11:42, June 28, 2014 (UTC)

As I said to you multiple times in the archived discussion, the ability to create and shape Blaze Release are being made manifest through Sasuke's Susanoō. S'why we consider it an alternate source of the black flames. —「SaiST Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal) 16:14, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
So the black flames of Amaterasu are no Blaze Release, with Blaze being black flames? • Seelentau 愛 16:25, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
No, we've always been on the same page in this respect. Amaterasu's black flames are Blaze Release. The conflict here has only been about how Kagutsuchi is used... Honestly, a large part of that former discussion should have been held in Kagutsuchi's Talk Page. :/ —「SaiST Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal) 16:29, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
Okay, and Blaze Release is the release of the black flames, right? • Seelentau 愛 16:33, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, creation of black flames. You are now seeing the lack of that prefix upon Kagutsuchi(I'm assuming that was true in the raw text, if you're bringing it up now) as an indication of it's inclusion alluding to the right eye's creation of the black flames. My retort in this current discussion has been that it was seen with that prefix in it's first named example in the beginning of 464, where Sasuke was manipulating flames that were already present. —「SaiST Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal) 16:37, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
I agree, he did that. So you don't need to create black flames to control them with Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi. But if the Blaze Release is about creating the black flames, then the Kagutsuchi part would be about the shape manipulation, wouldn't it? This was (in my eyes) confirmed by the last chapter and Sasuke's use of Kagutsuchi. • Seelentau 愛 16:50, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
For the record, part of me hates even arguing this with you, as I WANT the black flames to be classified here properly. I just can't agree to Kagutsuchi's creation of them. —「SaiST Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal) 16:42, June 28, 2014 (UTC)

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