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Logical deduction using facts

There have been arguments about Asura having Six Paths Senjutsu. To me the answer is obvious, yes, he did. From what we know, Asura's chakra+Indra's chakra=Hagoromo's chakra. Simply put, merging chakras of Hagoromo's sons recreates Hagoromo's chakra. Hagoromo is known to have had Six Paths Sage Chakra. Asura's avatar has Truth Seeking Balls too so.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 10:19, June 21, 2015 (UTC)

But [Asura's chakra =/= Hagoromo's chakra] and [Truth-Seeking Balls unconfirmed]. • Seelentau 愛 10:40, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
Point being there's no indication Indra inherited Six Path Sage Chakra, while Truth Seeking Balls are highly likely with Asura along with the Tailed Beast like Avatar.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 10:46, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
Neither Indora nor Ashura were said to have inherited SPSC and the black orbs weren't confirmed to be TSBs. • Seelentau 愛 10:47, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
If merging their chakras restores Hagoromo's then one of them has to have SPSC and the black orbs i'm aware weren't "confirmed" to be TSB but it's obvious. I mean, Naruto against Sasuke was almost identical to Asura vs Indra, yet you say their avatars and orbs which look almost identical are unrelated? Lawl.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 10:58, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
But his chakra is SPSC, if the two each had 50%, why does one have the full 100%? Also, it doesn't matter what I'm saying. Or you. Or anyone. They weren't confirmed to be TSB, so we won't call them that. I can only repeat: It's not our job to correct the manga, neither is it our job to fill in the unexplained gaps. • Seelentau 愛 11:05, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
The fact that he has a Chakra Cloak in the chapter where Hagoromo says Naruto is his Reincarnation kind of raises all of your points into question, guys. It'd make more sense if we tried debating whether or not that was a SPSC empowered Form. I mean, it kind of immediately proves that it is, indeed, a Chakra Mode. Think of it this way; Naruto is his Reincarnation. He has Hagoromo's Sage Chakra which everyone else seems to forget. And, most importantly, the fact that his Chakra forms a Cloak implies that he has some sort of connection to the Form in itself. The fact that he has a Cloak means that he has to have one of two abilities 1. The Tensaigan, or 2. Chakra from Kurama. But think of it this way. What does the face of his Battle Avatar resemble the most? It doesn't resemble a fox, does it? It looks like a rabbit's face, instead. Not to mention, if I'm reading the manga correctly, Hagoromo gives Asura his Chakra before he splits the Tailed Beasts up. That means he would have to have some sort of trace of the Beasts in there, right? If you want proof, just look at Boruto and Himawari. They both have the Whisker Marks that Naruto has. Going back to Asura, wouldn't that mean he had the Chakra that he needed to use the SPSC, which, in turn, would allow him the use of the TSB? Since the Chakra would have immediately melded with his own Chakra Network upon receiving, and it would obviously not have the Jyuubi's consciousness inside of it, it is safe to assume that he would gain the ability to utilize a Chakra Shroud, which he does. Therefore, if this is any indication, which it most certainly is, that would mean that his Avatar was a bi-product of receiving Hagoromo's Chakra. In essence, the proof is already supplied. -- User:ExyleCage ExyleCage (talk) 20:39, July 10, 2015 (UTC)

Naruto has/had SPSC, so he has/had 100% of Hagoromo's chakra? Nope. And it's not correcting manga, it's stating the obvious. I'm sure Kishimoto trusts his fans can connect the dots. Naruto is reincarnation of Asura and their avatars and orbs are very similar so it's given they are related.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 11:11, June 21, 2015 (UTC)

So Hagoromo's chakra is 100% SPSC, but if you have only 50% of his chakra, you still have SPSC? Then what did Indora get? Logically, he would've gotten SPSC as well. And yes, there are similaritys. They don't mean anything as long as Kishimoto doesn't explain them, though. • Seelentau 愛 11:17, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
The problem is, Indra's chakra avatar wasn't stated to be Susanoo either. Yet it's "obvious" and we "correct the manga" and "fill in the gaps" in regards to that, but the same doesn't apply about Asura's chakra avatar because double standards.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 11:19, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
Lol no. It's because Indora's chakra avater obviously is Susanoo. You don't need to correct or fill in anything there. Ashura's avatar doesn't look like anything we've seen to date, so we can't name it just because Naruto's fox avatar somewhat looks like Indora's avatar. • Seelentau 愛 11:35, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
Just like it's "obvious" to you that Indra's chakra avatar was Susanoo since it looks like other Susanoo, it's "obvious" to me that Asura's chakra avatar was Kurama and his black orbs were TSB. Your "obvious" isn't superior to mine. It hasn't been stated anywhere in manga or databooks (to my knowledge) that Indra used Susanoo, so hence by your own logic it should be removed.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 11:39, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
There is no difference between Indora's Susanoo and the others. There IS a difference between Ashura's chakra mode and Naruto's Kurama mode. Additionally, Ashura was never said to be Kurama's Jinchuriki, in fact, Mito was even called its first Jinchuriki. There is no problem in calling Indora's avater Susanoo because it adds up. Ashura having Kurama's chakra does not. Additionally, the black orbs could've been TBB and not TSB. Both are black orbs, so we can't say for sure that they're TSB. • Seelentau 愛 11:44, June 21, 2015 (UTC)

That's not the point, your logic was we shouldn't correct and fill in the gaps. Indra's chakra avatar is NO MORE obviously Susanoo than is Shin's Space-Time Tech Kamui, yet we haven't added the latter. The only difference between Ashura and Naruto's is the heads and neck thingy. Also TBB require Tailed Beast chakra, TSB require Six Paths Sage Chakra and FF-Suzaku I believe said it's suggested in the novel Tailed Beast chakra plays role in Six Paths Senjutsu after all (and you say it's fanon I know). One way or another, Ashura was either jinchuuriki or Six Paths Senjutsu user or both.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 11:54, June 21, 2015 (UTC)

My point is that Indora's Susanoo isn't something that was filled in by us, while Ashura's avatar obviously would be. This discussions alone are proof enough that we can't simply add it as you want. • Seelentau 愛 11:57, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
Except it was filled in by us. It wasn't stated to be Susanoo in any official source, heck, Indra wasn't stated to have had a Mangekyou Sharingan either, it was "filled in" by us that his spiral eye thingy was it.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 12:06, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
Elve, maybe that's because it didn't have to be stated by an official source. I think anyone can read the corresponding manga chapter and determine that it was indeed Susanoo. The disconnect here is that you think Asura is obviously using something that isn't obvious to others.--Mina Hatake Symbol talk | contribs 12:12, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
Because there is no other possibility. Same goes for Magnet Release's natures. • Seelentau 愛 12:13, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
Yes, precisely. We knew his natures via databook, so there was only one obvious choice left. Elve, you yourself stated that Asura was either "jinchuriki" or "SPS", or "both": one out of three possibilities. You're comfortable guessing on which it is?--Mina Hatake Symbol talk | contribs 12:17, June 21, 2015 (UTC)

Hypocrisy is our greatest sin isn't it... Indra's obviously Susanoo because it has most of the characteristics other Susanoo have, Tengu theme and all, still doesn't change the fact it wasn't stated we just assume, thus you shat in your own mouth Seel about "not our job to assume" For the rest, only differences between Ashura and Naruti's avatars is the head and necklace/beads otherwise they are more similar to each other than Indra's Susanoo to Sasuke's, yet they aren't the same thing because double standards. @Minamoto, the novel suggests Tailed Beast chakra is required for Six Paths Senjutsu, if that's true, then it's both.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 12:22, June 21, 2015 (UTC)

I'd like to ask which novel suggests that because I don't recall that at all.--Omojuze (talk) 13:16, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
I believe it was the Shikamaru novel. Shikamaru notes that he has all tailed beasts chakra and Six Paths chakra that basically made him a god.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 13:20, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
^mhh... Thank you. But that doesn't imply anything in regards to requirements of Tailed Beast Chakra to use Rikudō Senjutsu. The sentence doesn't imply anything at all, unless you count "confirmation" that Naruto has kept the Bijū chakra.--Omojuze (talk) 13:23, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
There were also remnants of the other 8 bijuu inside him as well. In that way, you could say he was a human pillar for the power of the Ten Tails. In the last war, Obito had become a human pillar for the Ten Tails and gained chakra rivalling that of the Sage of the Six Paths. Naruto, who’d taken the bijuu into him as well, had some of the Sage’s power even now. - this? (Shikamaru Hiden, Chapter 1/4, between pages 75-85)--Omojuze (talk) 13:27, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
That's correct.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 13:51, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
I have not idea if I'm doing this right because I haven't done this in awhile. But, anyway, on to the conversation. Wouldn't it at least be alright to say he possibly had SPSC? I mean, Asura USES something close. Though, we could also argue that he does have it I mean, Hagoromo does say that he entrusted Asura with his power. Arguably, that could mean that he was referring to the SPSC. Though, I'm not saying it does mean he has it. It just means he could. Why not at least add it with a side note suggesting that it's a possibility? We've done it before. I'll use Sasuke as an example. In no way have we seen him use an ability from each of the SP. We've only seen him do something with a few of them. Yet we listed them as abilities nonetheless. Why not do it for Asura, too? Now, I'm gonna attempt to sign this, but I don't know if I remember how.-- User:ExyleCage ExyleCage (talk) 16:58, July 10, 2015 (UTC)

Last Name

Y'know, ever since Ōtsutsuki was added to his and his brother's pages something's been nagging me, but I left it alone. Y'all cite the fourth databook as having given this information. Their names in the databook are literally just given in first name only. I know we were expecting them to be revealed with the full Ōtsutsuki name, but it didn't happen and yet we went ahead and added it as soon as we could. I mean, am I missing something here? Is it actually mentioned somewhere in one or both of the databook articles and Kishi for some reason didn't add it to the title?--ScruffyC (talk) 13:47, June 21, 2015 (UTC)

I think the last names were given in some promotional material in the WSJ or so... • Seelentau 愛 13:49, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
I think the reason that they were given "Otsutsuki" is because of the fact that Hagoromo revealed that he had two sons called Asura and Indra and his name was given as "Otsutsuki", so it was logical that their names were the same as well. But honestly, a lot of shit done on this wiki makes little sense anymore and reasoning just becomes wilder and wilder. >_> --Sajuuk [Mod] 14:01, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
I understand the logic behind it, and once upon a time I was on the side of adding their names with that reasoning in mind... However, seeing as Kishimoto went to the trouble of not adding the brothers' names as "Ōtsutsuki" in the databook, something I'm positive he thought about (he did confirm Hamura's name as such), I'm hesitant to seal the deal, y'know? But if there's promo material confirming it, I'm happy. ScruffyC (talk) 14:07, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
Talk:Indra_Ōtsutsuki#Surname and http://i.imgur.com/cj9LQHi.jpg WindStar7125 Divine Mangekyō Sharingan VolteMetalic 14:27, June 21, 2015 (UTC)

~/Battle Avatar/~

Again, I have no idea if I'm doing this right, but at least I'm trying, right? Anyway, on to the discussion. Now, I know we've all been thinking this. The Battle Avatar. Why isn't it listed as a technique? We all know it's a technique, so why not add it as a technique in his Jutsu Category? It's kind of common sense, if you ask me. But I'll leave it up to you guys since all I ever do is fix grammar. So, anyway, if it is a technique, can we add it? Again, no idea if I'm signing this right, but I'll give it a try.-- User:ExyleCage ExyleCage (talk) 17:06, July 10, 2015 (UTC)

We have no name and no information on what it is capable to do. Neither do we know how he achieved it. So there's no information a separate article on the avatar would have, that Asura's article not has. • Seelentau 愛 19:25, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
That isn't what I meant. We could put it in his Jutsu category as 'Battle Avatar' or something like that. -- User:ExyleCage ExyleCage (talk) 19:59, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
That's not how it works. The character box's technique are autmatically included. • Seelentau 愛 20:02, July 10, 2015 (UTC)

Um, we have articles on many techniques that we don't know anything about their workings.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 02:48, July 11, 2015 (UTC)

I know and I don't like that, either. But what's done has been done. No need to make the list even longer. • Seelentau 愛 11:20, July 11, 2015 (UTC)
What I was referring to was making it a Jutsu, but not giving it its own page.--User:ExyleCage ExyleCage (talk) 14:26, July 11, 2015 (UTC)
I know, but that's not possible. The jutsu list in the characterbox is created based on the jutsu that have the character listed as a user. For a jutsu to appear in that list, it would have to have an article. • Seelentau 愛 14:34, July 11, 2015 (UTC)
Oh! I get it now!--User:ExyleCage {{SUBST:color=red}}ExyleCageWasHere 14:57, July 11, 2015 (UTC)

We have an article on Ball of Light Technique filler non-canonical "technique" we know zero about, but not this hmph.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 14:54, July 11, 2015 (UTC)

Anime

So anime has Asura's Battle Avatar glowing in the same yellow/orange glame like Naruto with black orbs made in the same way the Truth-Seeking Balls are. So are we going to argue about it now or later?--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 16:34, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

And to get this out the way, no; not liking/caring about the anime does not negate the fact that as of now it actually provides us something we can use to answer this.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 16:36, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
Well, from what I remember, the discussions about this only ever involved the Tailed Beast Mode, but never the Six Paths Sage Mode. I can imagine him having the latter. • Seelentau 愛 16:49, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
Fantastic, I can work with Six Paths Sage Mode.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 17:28, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
Yay... finally. I love you Ulti <3 It's quite obvious the power Hagoromo mentioned he had given to Asura was the same thing he would eventually give to Naruto, Six Paths Sage Chakra or whatever. Asura vs Indra and Naruto vs Sasuke are parallels, with the difference that Indra incarnate (Sasuke) was given power too this time. But how does avatar prove Six Paths Sage Mode? The Truth Seeking Balls do. The avatar looks like Kurama Mode, almost identical shape with the sole exception of the heads, almost identical seal pattern, with the sole exception of neck beads and the color is the same according to anime.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 19:03, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
It looks like the Six Paths Sage Mode as well. Both have the golden colour and unlike Kurama Mode, you don't need to be a jinchuriki to use the SPSM. Ashura was never said to be a jinchuriki, so it makes more sense that he used the SPSM. Going from that, the black orbs are more likely to be TSB than TBB. • Seelentau 愛 19:08, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

Didn't the databook show SPSM as Naruto's toad-fox cross eyes without SM pigmentation, without any cloak? If in Naruto's case SPSM is cross eyes, the cross is made not only because of toad eyes, but fox eyes - Kurama's as well, which requires him to be jinchuuriki.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 19:13, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

That's like saying "Because Naruto had toad-fox cross eyes when he met Nagato, being a Jinchuriki is a requirement to use Senjutsu". • Seelentau 愛 19:15, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
Good point, just saying the fox part was there when he awakened it.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 19:19, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
Well, from my understanding, not even the cloak is part of SPSM because the article shows Naruto kicking the TSB, something he did while he didn't even have the cloak up... • Seelentau 愛 19:20, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
That was my point above, the cloak isn't part of SPSM so you can't deduce Asura's avatar as SPSM. If I get it correctly, Six Paths Senjutsu is Six Paths Chakra (which is Hagoromo's chakra I believe?) that allows usage of Yin-Yang Release + Senjutsu Chakra, thus Six Paths Sage Chakra. That doesn't explain Asura's avatar though, with striking resemblance to Kurama :)--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 19:25, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
Then again, the Six Paths Senjutsu is characterised by the tomoe pattern on the user's back, something that only appeared with the cloak. And no, we don't know what exatly Six Paths Senjutsu is, it isn't mentioned in the databook at all, from what I know. • Seelentau 愛 19:29, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

In The Last intro, the pattern appears on Hagoromo's back after he becomes his mom's jinch. You can see in the manga it wasn't there when he and Hamura fought her. So I would say the back thing isn't sign of SPS especially since the databook showed Naruto kicking the TSB and it's not there without jinch cloak.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 19:32, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but Madara attributed the pattern to Six Paths Senjutsu. Nothing we can do about that. And what if Hagoromo only gained it after he sealed the TT? • Seelentau 愛 19:35, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
He didn't, Naruto's back was shown when he said it bloomed inside him. If Hagoromo got SPS from TT and becoming TT jinch gives the back pattern, then Tailed Beast chakra is required for Six Paths Senjutsu after all. And I believe the databook said Six Paths Senjutsu grants chakra omniscience and omnipotence or so?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 19:39, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
Yes, Naruto's back was shown at the same time Madara said Naruto had the SPS. That's a connection made by the author. Basic storytelling.
Tailed Beast chakra =/= TT's chakra. And yes, the databook is much about all those mythical words. Read my translation^^ • Seelentau 愛 19:42, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
The back thingy is shown to be something TT jinchuuriki have. Hagoromo becomes TT jinch - gets back thingy. Obito becomes TT jinch - gets back thingy. Madara becomes TT jinch - gets back thingy. In the databooks, Naruto was stated to have been pseudo TT jinch or something, had back thingy (not anymore, presumably because the chakras of other 8 Tailed Beasts are gone) So I don't think the back thingy = SPS, more like back thingy = TT jinch, TT jinch = SPS.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 20:20, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
The back things is shown to be something SPS user have. Hagoromo used SPS - gets back thingy. Obito used SPS - gets back thingy. Madara used SPS - gets back thingy. Naruto used SPS - gets back thingy. :) • Seelentau 愛 20:23, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

Read again, my point is becoming TT jinch grants back thingy and SPS, so by having one you have the other by extension, but it's not exactly back thingy = SPS. Simply put, back thingy isn't proof of SPS, it's proof of being TT jinch and TT jinch means having SPS. Hopefully you understand that. But back on topic, I truly believe Naruto against Sasuke completely paralleled Asura against Indra, meaning equal powers, kinda like "past repeats itself" and "it ends where it began" or so. I don't think we are going to get any explanation and I believe Kishimoto himself said he trusts we can connect the dots, not to mention we have far greater speculation in other articles.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 20:32, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

But it is "back marking = SPS marking". Madara made that allusion. This is basic reading comprehension, come on. • Seelentau 愛 20:53, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
As I said, I see it more like "back marking = TT jinch marking" "being TT jinch = having SPS" so Six Paths Senjutsu =/= back marking, but back marking = Six Paths Senjutsu. I'm positive Kaguya uses Six Paths Senjutsu too, yet she has no back marking. That's because she isn't and can't be a jinchuuriki of herself, so there's no sign of being TT jinchuuriki since she merged with Shinju is the TT herself/itself.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 20:58, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
But Naruto never was the TT jinchuriki so that can't be it. I also believe that the SPS started with Hagoromo. • Seelentau 愛 21:01, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
The databooks actually call Naruto TT jinch in some parts, unless it's mistranslation or my misunderstanding. Kaguya exhibits flight, TSB - you know, stuff attributed to SPS. Also if Hagoromo having become TT jinch gave him SPS, how can Kaguya not have it, since she can transform into it?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 21:10, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
It doesn't, no. Onoki flys as well. Kaguya doesn't use the normal TSB, she created them from the chakra of the shinobi she caught. • Seelentau 愛 22:11, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
Ignoring this grand discussion about Naruto's back, but can we at least agree that Asura's Battle Avatar stems from Six Paths Sage Mode now?--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 22:18, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
I mean, we aren't going to get a smoking gun with this, if he didn't care enough to say it in the Databook he's not going to say it now that the series is over, but based on appearance alone we at least got that going.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 22:19, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

I'm almost sure of it... either FF-Suzaku's translation or on forums. Onoki uses a technique, you think if you got Onoki's chakra you would magically start to fly? Those with her power get flight, so it's reasonable her own flight is the same thing, even suggesting otherwise is ridiculous. And so? She used their chakras, but she executed the technique, would Sakura be able to use TSB with chakras of others?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 22:21, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

Seriously Koto Senju is adding it to the articles and I believe they should stick.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 22:28, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
Tehe Koto Senju in "enough of this" mode. I too believe they should probably stick. The anime rendering speaks for itself, but strictly on the grounds of "it can't be anything else". So let's decide, we gonna add Asura for SPSM?--Mina Hatake Symbol talk | contribs 22:36, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
Obviously, still the issue though, can you have Six Paths Senjutsu without Tailed Beast chakra?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 22:40, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
Wait a second, Elve can you briefly explain what you're getting at? Reading through this, it seems you're trying to say that Asura was a jinchuriki. Am I reading that wrong?--Mina Hatake Symbol talk | contribs 22:48, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
You're not. WindStar7125 Divine Mangekyō Sharingan VolteMetalic 23:00, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
This whole discussion existing is exactly why I'm so often against adding these things. Kishi messed up his manga with missing information and it's not our job to fix that. Because there is no true solution. • Seelentau 愛 23:06, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

/flipstable--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 23:40, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

Wow, Seelentau and I actually agree on something. WindStar7125 Divine Mangekyō Sharingan VolteMetalic 23:58, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely see his point. I just don't see anything wrong with doing what's sensible using logical deduction and facts. I mean, it isn't like we haven't done so with other things around here. This case here seems more difficult to pin down only because we're not entirely sure the Tailed Beast chakra is even necessary. Too bad Kishi doesn't seem to give a rats ass, and seems content on leaving it to the consumers.--Mina Hatake Symbol talk | contribs 00:20, July 26, 2015 (UTC)
Databook says that Rikudo Chibaku Tensei is SPS technique so Hagoromo using before becoming TT jin means SPS doesn't require TT chakra. / Rage gtx (talk) 00:54, July 26, 2015 (UTC)
It's Six Paths technique not Six Paths Senjutsu technique.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 02:30, July 26, 2015 (UTC)
@Elve here FF-Suzaku translation of Six Paths Chibaku Tensei entry which is apparently was ignored by everyone here on wikia.

FF-Suzaku wrote: "Chibaku Tensei / Six Paths Chibaku Tensei" has a single entry, and lists "Nagato / Naruto and Sasuke, Hagoromo and Hamura" as its users. It's a kekkei genkai sealing jutsu.

Six Paths Chibaku Tensei is invoked when two users simultaneously touch their target with the "Yin" and "Yang" seals. It rips a giant chunk of earth up and turns it into a heavenly body, becoming the Prison of Six Paths (六道の獄 Rokudō no Goku) that can capture all things (万物捕, "banbutsuto"). It's a sealing jutsu that can be used by individuals who awaken Six Paths Senjutsu. "Chibaku Tensei" is the version that can be used by a single individual, while "Six Paths Chibaku Tensei" is a more powerful version that requires two individuals simultaneously combining the power of Yin and Yang. It turns the sealing target into a gravity core in the sky, which attracts chunks of earth that bury them alive. This forms a heavenly body in the sky that can act as a prison for even a tailed beast. The section in the bottom left describes how the moon was the result of Six Paths Chibaku Tensei, and that so much chakra was contained within that it turned into a gigantic sattelite. It also describes it as a giant sealing stone (封印石 "Fuinseki"), which implies that Kishimoto took some inspiration from those giant "sealing stones" you sometimes see -- the big boulders with the kanji inscribed on them, usually with the ceremonial ropes adoring them.

FF-Suzaku wrote: The caption in the bottom left says, roughly, "Nagato who wielded the Rinnegan attempted to use this jutsu to seal the Nine Tails."

I believe Chibaku Tensei is linked to the Rinnegan, while the Six Paths variant is a Six Paths Senjutsu that uses the Yin and Yang seals. ./ Rage gtx (talk) 03:01, July 26, 2015 (UTC)

Then Sasuke and Hamura have Six Paths Senjutsu?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 11:28, July 26, 2015 (UTC)

And Nagato's got Yin-Yang Release? Thought that was only granted to people who recieve power from Hagoromo.--Mina Hatake Symbol talk | contribs 11:37, July 26, 2015 (UTC)
@Elve, It is plasible in Hamura's case if you go with TSB description but in Sasuke case one who casted seals was Hagoromo(something like Naruto giving rasengans to Kanoha 11 against Obito) so even for Hamura it is posible that Hagorom just gave him seal.
@Mina well Nagato had rinnegan wich is "power from Hagoromo" tho it's said that Yin and Yang requred for Six Paths CT not for Normal one ./Rage gtx (talk) 11:40, July 26, 2015 (UTC)
Nagato didn't use the Six Paths version. Sasuke has SPS, yeah... no idea... I hate you, Kishi. • Seelentau 愛 11:43, July 26, 2015 (UTC)
Yeah I read that translation wrong. As far Sasuke, well, Tau you're plight about Kishi's lack of explanations is looking more and more valid the further we take this.--Mina Hatake Symbol talk | contribs 11:46, July 26, 2015 (UTC)

Well, Hagoromo only lent the seals to Naruto and Sasuke, they returned back to him afterwards.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 11:58, July 26, 2015 (UTC)

inheritance fetish

Explain me this please, it's been bugging me for many years now. The manga said Asura's inheritance is "body" which are his father's life force and physical energy. For some reason, people have the need to add "stamina" everywhere and say large chakra reserves and all that bullshit, why can't we just say what the official sources do, why is there need to assume? We don't know what life force exactly is and what it means to have strong physical energy. Things like stamina/large chakra reserves are fanon, so why is it everywhere i look?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 19:22, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

Stamina and large chakra reserves aren't bullshit, it's literally been seen with all of Asura's important descendants. Stamina is literally just your endurance and how long you can last, which Asura's descendants have a lot of. Hashirama, Naruto, Nagato, Tobirama, Kushina, Karin, Tsunade, ect, all/most of them have powerful life forces and/or large and powerful chakra reserves and have shown the ability to both endure and survive injuries that would normally kill most people if not all people excluding their own cousin clans. The Uzumaki survive tailed beast extraction because of their life force, when all of your chakra is gone, you die. When all of your life force is gone, you die. We may not have an exact definition of life force, but considering it's always been allied and associated with physical energy and you die if you run out of both life force and chakra. The direct connection between the two should be quite clear.--Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 02:14, July 31, 2015 (UTC)

Stamina and chakra reserves are one and the same. As per Ebisu's in-depth explanation in Part 1, you start out with stamina and convert it into chakra, hence the databooks giving a high stamina ranking to characters who have large amounts of chakra. That aside, neither Asura nor his descendants were ever stated to naturally have large amounts of chakra. In fact, it's the opposite: Indra inherited his father's powerful chakra and Asura had to train and receive help from others in order to match his brother's chakra. Most of the characters mentioned above are jōnin or Kage-level individuals who have had years of experience to build up their chakra, and even disregarding that, Hashirama and Naruto (the only two known to naturally have large chakra reserves) may be exceptions, considering they inherited Asura'a chakra directly. I don't think anyone's arguing that Hashirama and the Uzumaki have strong life forces, though there's absolutely nothing stating that Tobirama and Tsunade do.--BeyondRed (talk) 08:50, July 31, 2015 (UTC)

Asura's inheritance are his father Hagoromo's physical energy and life force. Uzumaki were noted for longevity, except not just Uzumaki but people from Uzushiogakure in general. For some reason, this got raped into "vitality, longevity, durability, large reserves of powerful chakra, life force, physical energy" and what not shit for everyone even losely related without any proof.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 12:09, July 31, 2015 (UTC)

Yes but as well was noted that Uzumaki was common family name in Uzushiogakure, so unless you know someone from Uzushiogakure who is not related to Uzumaki but has said features - this is not an argument. ./ Rage gtx (talk) 12:51, July 31, 2015 (UTC)

I believe it was Obito who said, while killing Konan, that the decedents of Asura, the Senju clan namely, inherited powerful life force and stamina. So I guess that's why we see inheritance mumbo-jumbo on pretty much every Senju clan member's page. The only error there is is how people explicated and interpreted that info; massive chakra and etc. So I think the practice of adding it to members page is permissible, just not the extra stuff we add. And I think vitality was only suggested in Hashi's case. The stamina and life force info should be okay though.--KotoTalk Page-My Contributions 15:56, July 31, 2015 (UTC)

I say that Tobirama does because of him raising his finger and exerting some of his chakra, which showed how strong his chakra was, and him being capable of teleporting two TBM users easily. Tsunade on the other hand, survived being chopped in half when her seal was no longer active, and had enough chakra and strength left to summon Katsuyu to heal herself and the other Kage who were all unconscious and on the verge of death. That is definitely an example of her life force. As for the main part of my argument is that, what sense does it make that nearly all of the Uchiha, Indra's descendants, inherited his Sharingan and powerful chakra. But their opposing clan, the strongest clan in the world, the Senju for some odd reason didn't inherit any of Asura's abilities? Even though the Uzumaki, who come from the Senju, did? Does it really have to be officially stated in the Manga or by Kishimoto himself about all of the Senju inheriting Asura's powerful life force and physical energy? When it is a simple logical deduction?

Also, I can't really prove this cause I can't remember where I saw the source, but I believed someone posted a part from the databook I believe on the wiki a few months ago about it being stated that Senju Clan inherited the power of Yang while the Uchiha Clan inherited the power of Yin. Represented by the powerful physical energy that the Senju had and the spiritual energy that the Uchiha had.

As for what BeyondRed said, if the Uzumaki have a lot of stamina. Then they would therefore have a lot of chakra. Kushina was noted to have a special and strong form of chakra even among her clan which would indicate that the others had special and strong chakra too. Just not on Kushina's level. Kushina gave birth to Naruto, which took a lot out of her, and then she had her beast extracted and survived. Then she still had enough chakra left to create her adamantine sealing chains to restrain Kurama temporarily. Her surviving all of this was due to her life force and the fact that she still had a decent amount of chakra left after all of that would indicate that there is a connection between life force and chakra.

Now about the vitality, vitality literally just means the capability you have for survival, or great physical strength, or the power to live and grow. So basically, it can mean one's endurance or stamina. Basically what I'm trying to say, is that if they have a powerful life force which therefore grants them great longevity, vitality, regenerative abilities, stamina and physical energy, which is one of the two main things that make up one's chakra, with stamina basically being chakra, and it's been stated that the stronger and more physical and mental energy you have makes the created chakra stronger and larger. Should therefore mean, that the Uzumaki, the Senju which they come from, which was the strongest clan in the world, and Asura himself obviously. Would all have large and powerful amounts of chakra, now even though the Uchiha were stated to have powerful chakra. They were never stated to have massive amounts of stamina, endurance, regenerative abilities, ect. So even though their chakra would be really strong, them having more chakra than Asura's descendants doesn't make much sense. When they were known for their powerful chakra rather than their large chakra reserves and stamina. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 17:39, July 31, 2015 (UTC)

Stamina

Can it be safe to say he had superior stamina than the average human? The Senju did inherit that from him right?Cloudtheavenger (talk) 04:58, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

That's what the above topic is about. Many of Asura's descendants have been shown to possess a lot of stamina, but there's no actual statement in the manga that says Asura or his lineage naturally possess large stamina/chakra, just powerful life force (and only the Uzumaki and Hashirama have been said to have that).--BeyondRed (talk) 08:57, August 3, 2015 (UTC)
Sigh... just something to think about: Madara could keep up with Hashirama and Sasuke could keep up with Naruto, fighting the entire day and night. By that, Madara and Sasuke had comparable stamina to their counterparts. "OMG UCHIHA STAMINA INHERITANCE CONFIRMED"--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 09:13, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

Size of Battle Avatar

Okay, let's try this again...

Should it be noted that Asura's Battle Avatar is smaller than Indra's Complete Body — Susanoo?--JouXIII (talk) 22:12, August 15, 2015 (UTC)

Why? --Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 22:39, August 15, 2015 (UTC)
Well, Naruto's Kurama Mode was as big as Sasuke's Complete Body — Susanoo, so I find it rather strange that Asura's BA is smaller than Indra's CP — S... Don't you?--JouXIII (talk) 22:50, August 15, 2015 (UTC)
It's called perspective. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 12:52, August 20, 2015 (UTC)
How does perspective account for the size difference between the two? Asura's battle avatar really is much smaller. It is closer to the viewer, at least in the manga panel, as a small part of it is obscuring Indra's Susanoo. There's really no point to noting the size difference is there? D.Phoenix (talk) 02:11, August 24, 2015 (UTC)
My hand is millions of times smaller than the sun, but because of perspective, I can still cover the sun with my hand. Same thing is happening here. Indra's Susanoo is just "closer" to the reader, making it seem bigger than Asura's avatar. I also suspect Kishimoto might have done so to avoid drawing all the details of Indra's Susanoo, as Complete Body Susanoo's design has more detail than Asura's avatar. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:19, August 24, 2015 (UTC)
Look closely at the manga panel. It's the other way around. Asura's battle avatar is "closer" to the reader. You can see that a part of its tail/cloak is covering Indra's Susanoo. Unless the anime picture trumps the manga panel? D.Phoenix (talk) 02:40, August 24, 2015 (UTC)

You're kidding, right? Indra's and Asura's body size is the same, but their Susano'o and Chakra Mode respectively, are different in size--MERCURIOUS (talk) 02:46, August 24, 2015 (UTC)

In this case, I think the anime did a better job. This is certainly not the first discussion about size in this wiki that puts Kishimoto's drawing skills in question. Basically, it makes no sense for them to be different sizes. Not in logic, not in story-telling either. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:26, August 24, 2015 (UTC)
I don't see how the anime depiction shows it differently. Indra is closer to "us" we see his back, while Asura is further and facing us. Indra's Susanoo seems larger because he is closer of course. We obviously have no idea about the actual distance between the two, but it doesn't seem to be much, making people think that Indra's Susanoo is larger after all, but I don't think Kishimoto put it that much detail into that panel. So Indra's Susanoo may or may not have been larger, who cares.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 10:49, August 24, 2015 (UTC)

avatar manga vs anime

Studio Pierrot has drawn it wrong, the avatar I mean. Several details are missing, like the ribs. Not to mention the lines on its arms are drawn only on top while in the manga, they are on the bottom side.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 10:53, August 24, 2015 (UTC)

Bump.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 17:30, August 24, 2015 (UTC)
Okay. So should one of us request for the colored manga image then? WindStar7125 Divine Mangekyō Sharingan VolteMetalic 17:32, August 24, 2015 (UTC)
The problem is that's its wrongly colored [1]. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 17:37, August 24, 2015 (UTC)
Oho, that is an issue. So, either we use that image, or the black and white raw image for the sake of correct depiction I guess... WindStar7125 Divine Mangekyō Sharingan VolteMetalic 17:44, August 24, 2015 (UTC)
From what I see, it looks like watching through sunglasses or something(you can see similiar effect with Hagoromo and Hamura sealing Kaguya-image). You can tell Asura's battle avatar is yellowish.--JouXIII (talk) 17:51, August 24, 2015 (UTC)

Yes my suggestion is to use the correct manga image. Seel was so anal to use manga scan of Madara's Rinne Sharingan just because the anime one was missing 1 tomoe, this is a bigger difference, so :)--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 18:50, August 24, 2015 (UTC)

Rinne Sharingan missing a tomoe is much, much bigger than a problem of perspective. That's like using a picture for Naruto's infobox without the whiskers. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:00, August 24, 2015 (UTC)
Ribs missing and lines on the wrong side is a problem of perspective? ._.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 19:03, August 24, 2015 (UTC)
The RS problem is a much more noticeable problem. Because the RS is such a simple design, anything done wrong stands out that much more. If these last two topics had not brought attention to the mistakes with Asura's avatar's designs, I don't think I'd ever have noticed them. I find the problem with the designs to be much more valid the the size/perspective. I didn't read the part about the designs properly before, so I thought this was still about the size. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:16, August 24, 2015 (UTC)
I still agree with Elveonora that we should use the manga depiction if the anime gets it wrong, though. WindStar7125 Divine Mangekyō Sharingan VolteMetalic 19:20, August 24, 2015 (UTC)
Just note the missing lines, just like we've done with Tōka Senju missing lipstick in the anime. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 19:37, August 24, 2015 (UTC)

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