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Since when is Amaterasu Blaze Release?

All the information we have it is just the highest level of Fire Release.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 20:50, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

Forum post. I remember a time things like this would have been linked in the Talk Page and easier to find. Dark times indeed.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō (talk) 20:55, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

It still doesn't make sense to me. Amaterasu was explicitly said to be a Fire Release ninjutsu in the Third Databook. Blaze Release was something unique to Sasuke, since he could manipulate and shape the flames unlike Itachi. None of Itachi's Amaterasu uses showed Blaze Release manipulation.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 21:00, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Then you should have spoken up loudly when that conversation was a thing, because Blaze Release is now what Amaterasu is.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō (talk) 21:01, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
I never even knew there was a conversation taking place, so how was I supposed to chime in?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 21:12, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

Few things:

  • Third Databook was introduced before the term Blaze Release in the manga, also Blaze Release is still made of Fire Release.
  • Blaze Release definitely isn't something unique to Sasuke, Tobirama commented that he had never seen such a Kagutsuchi.
  • Blaze Release isn't manipulating the flames, the flames themselves are. The manipulation is done using shape transformation, since when does nature become another nature when it's shaped?--Elveonora (talk) 21:16, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
1. Unless the next databook changes that, Amaterasu is still a Fire Release technique, just the highest level.
2. We don't know what Tobirama was commenting. And Enton itself seems, at least in this day and age, unique to Sasuke. Itachi never showed any manipulation of the black flames on Sasuke's level and we also saw Enton itself inhabiting Sasuke's right eye which allowed the manipulation.
3. Natures can be further manipulated though. Amaterasu itself isn't a Blaze Release technique, its a Fire Release. Whatever Sasuke does to shape it into spikes, shields, arrows, swords, and be able to manifest it on his hand without being burned is something unique to him. Itachi, the only other Amaterasu user explicitly said to be NOT able to do what Sasuke does with the Black Flames.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 21:22, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

You are missing the point. What Sasuke does as stated by C is add shape transformation to the black flames, that's what Kagatsuchi is. But doing so doesn't make the flames Blaze Release, they are said nature in the first place. Mixing Rasengan with Wind Release doesn't make Rasenshuriken Hurricane Awesome Release, so why should Fire Release + shape transformation be Blaze Release? Not to mention Amaterasu is quite different from any Fire Release to be so--Elveonora (talk) 21:26, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

Some things in the databook are inconsistent and outdated (such as Tobi being Madara). This is one of them. What's inconsistent is the notion that shape transformation brings forth a new, advanced nature. That is simply not true. Let's say Amaterasu is Fire, and simply manipulating and shaping it transforms it into Blaze? Chidori is lightning. Manipulating that makes it become a new, advanced lightning nature? That doesn't make sense. What if the highest level of Fire Release is Blaze Release? Amaterasu as it being the highest fire nature in the databook was introduced before the Blaze nature in the manga was. Susanoo requiring Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu in the databook was stated before Susanoo being unlocked by the Double Mangekyo was in the manga. Not all things in the databook are up to date. Shaping an element doesn't transform said nature into an advanced one. --WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 21:39, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
I think you are missing the point. Blaze Release has been shown repeatedly just to be shape transformation to Amaterasu. Amaterasu itself isn't quite different from any Fire Release either the only difference is color. Its like Black Lightning, its the same thing as normal lightning just black in color. Not to mention, again, Sasuke's Enton manifests solely in his right eye while he casts Amaterasu in his left. Itachi however just has Amaterasu in his right eye, and Tsukuyomi in his left. Thus he lacks Blaze Release due to the sheer fact both his eyes are covered with their powers.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 21:41, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
^ Both Elve and Windstar are correct. Now, if and when the 4th Databook emerges, and if Amaterasu is still listed as Fire Release, I will gladly tell them to take a hike and change it back to Fire, but the evidence right now overwhelmingly suggests Blaze. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 21:43, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
@SSM, no, it wasn't. Sasuke forming the flames with Susanoo and in his own hand is also called Blaze Release. And that's not what was stated, C said Sasuke manipulates the flames with his right eye and casts them with left. The Enton comes from the left--Elveonora (talk) 21:45, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Unless Blaze Release adds another element to Amaterasu's fire element, Windstar? Lets say that Sasuke's left eye allows him to use Yin Release with Amaterasu's Fire, making it Blaze Release? Thus, two elements in one. And thanks for the correction, Elveonora. Though again, why does Sasuke have an eye solely for Blaze Release (which we saw in the battle with Kaguya) while Itachi has an eye solely for Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi? And does Itachi have any feats which shows him manipulating the flames like Sasuke?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 21:47, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
May be Fire+Yin too, whatever the second is, is irrelevant. And he doesn't, right eye is shape transformation, left eye is chakra nature. Itachi didn't show feats like Sasuke because he couldn't use Kagutsuchi--Elveonora (talk) 21:49, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
That doesn't further prove your point, @SSM. Where's the evidence that Sasuke adds Yin to Fire to make Blaze? Did Sasuke have Yin before meeting Hagoromo? No. Casting the flames is enough for it to be Blaze Release. --WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 21:53, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
SuperSaiyaMan, no standard Fire Release shares the kind of color or pattern that the black flames created by Amaterasu possess. No standard Fire Release has the kind of longevity we've seen from these black flames. No Fire Release has been seen as so persistent that a new ocular power or ability to absorb chakra is sufficient enough to stop them from raging on.
The black flames created by Amaterasu have never behaved like normal flames, there is clearly something different about their composition. Being referred to as the pinnacle of Fire Release technically remains true, it's just that Kishimoto is now referring to that "pinnacle" as Blaze Release through Sasuke. As demonstrated in WindStar's example, Shape Transformation does not change the Nature Transformation, and Shape Transformation is all Kagutsuchi does to the black flames of Amaterasu. —「SaiSTMangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal) 21:54, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

@Windstar, He did, genjutsu are Yin Release. In order for it to be an advanced nature, two or more natures have to be at play. Besides Fire, Yin and Lightning are common guesses, but latter makes more sense to me, considering all other advanced natures are mergers of basic ones, discounting yin and yang--Elveonora (talk) 21:54, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

Ah, I forgot about that. Genjutsu is Yin Release. But shaping a nature doesn't make it advanced. It's just that simple.--WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 21:56, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Right, otherwise 90% of relevant characters would be advanced nature users. Shaping fire doesn't turn it black and doesn't make it inextinguishable--Elveonora (talk) 22:00, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Then why is Black Lightning and Kuropansa just considered Lightning Release then? And it still doesn't change that for Sasuke to use Blaze Release, he uses his Left Eye. If Amaterasu was just shaped Fire Release, when Sasuke uses Blaze Release he adds another element to change it.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 22:04, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Unlike black flame which is labeled Blaze Release, black lightning was labeled Lightning Release. And no, Sasuke uses one eye to cast nature transformation and another to add shape transformation--Elveonora (talk) 22:07, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
Besides the fact that it's black, how has Black Lightning been shown to differ from the standard variety? Of course, we are being lead to believe it's more powerful, but in terms of effect or function, what makes the distinction? For all we know, Kishimoto could end up coining a term specific to the Black Lightning in the next Databook, but regardless: We have seen, from the beginning, how the black flames differ from the standard Fire Release. Why would another Nature Release need to be involved to merely apply Shape Transformation to it? That's all Kagutsuchi does. —「SaiSTMangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal) 22:11, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

Also, Kagutsuchi has manipulated the flames on multiple occasions. Blaze Release is a nature. --WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 22:13, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

Wow...so after debating that Amaterasu wasn't a Blaze Release technique this whole time everybody on the wiki decides to change sides. I remember before when people were making the same cases users are saying now, but everyone kept saying how Amaterasu is a Katon jutsu and that Enton was the shape transformstion. Absolutely ridiculous. O well at least things make sense now...Banan14kab 08:38, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
You're the ridiculous one because apparently, opinions aren't allowed to ever change in your world. • Seelentau 愛 11:13, September 26, 2014 (UTC)

Well answer is even easier than that, Blaze Release isn't advanced nature you get by two basic. It`s just Fire with i don't know maybe Yin Release. And why everyone in this wiki forget that Jiraiya sealed Amaterasu with Highest fire seal. Rage gtx (talk) 11:26, September 26, 2014 (UTC)

Yin Release is also a basic chakra nature. • Seelentau 愛 11:56, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
@Seelentau, is there any evidence because i walking blind here. All i know that Kakashi said combining two basic elemental release is a KKG. More to that Itachi and Sasuke share only one common nature(fire) so that`s chop off fire+lightning theory. Of all advanced natures Blaze Release only one that need dojutsu and only to have similar qualities of basic(fire) just on larger scale. And last if Yin Release is also a basic chakra nature does that mean Yin-Yang Release is KKG? So i think Blaze Release is just fire casted by eye. Rage gtx (talk) 12:11, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
Yin Release is no elemental release. • Seelentau 愛 12:15, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
So it's clear then Enton is just fancy word from Sasuke to call his Amaterasu(fire+yin probably) manipulation. Rage gtx (talk) 12:25, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
Why? • Seelentau 愛 12:29, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
@Seel what do you mean why it's from what we have: Yin-Yang Release is not KKG neuther are Fire-Yin Release, to be advanced nature for Sasuke by Fire+Lightning Release is no-no because of Itachi, his Enton never was stated as KKG in series, unlike real Advanced nature it came from his dojutsu.There's just no room for any other conclusion./ Rage gtx (talk) 12:39, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
There is, as you can see from the discussions above. • Seelentau 愛 12:52, September 26, 2014 (UTC)

Sasuke has more than once cast the black flames with his Susanoo and in his hand, so black flames (Enton) isn't a "doujutsu nature" only Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi use Enton through doujutsu, otherwise he can use it no differently than Chidori--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 12:53, September 26, 2014 (UTC)

@Elve and Susanoo that unlocked by MS can be used without them, and so? And did't see hem using Chidori with Susanoo they aren't that same, and how your argument denies Enton being jist fancy Fire nature?. Sorry @Seelentau i only can see there what i told you, maybe i narrowminded, just point in conclusion can two different definitions. Rage gtx (talk) 13:07, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
Because there's no thing such as "fancier version of a nature". The only similar thing would be black lightning, the difference is black lightning techniques are still called Lightning Release, unlike black fire which is labeled a different nature, Blaze Release.--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 13:11, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
Well, first of all, the nature in nature transformation doesn't mean nature in the sense of element, but in the sense of characteristic. This opens up the possibility to change the chakra's characteristic in more than just elemental ways: Yin and Yang Release being the proof for that. However, according to Kakashi, the ability to create a new chakra nature is called KKG, so whatever natures Enton is made of, be it Fire and Yin or Fire and Lightning or whatever, it is a Kekkei Genkai. • Seelentau 愛 13:16, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
@Elve, you litle wrong here it was labeled differnt "Release" not "nature" it is still fire(even if it's black). And was labeled by user him self and labeled in strange way - he just added fire to fire(see enton kanji), i only see here amplification of fire. @Seel, so by all means Yin-Yang Release is KKG, point taken. Rage gtx (talk) 13:27, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
Fire+Yin still doesn't make it "just fire" tho, otherwise it would be Fire Release.--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 13:30, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
And that's why it called Blaze Release, while Blaze itself Fire synonym B-). Rage gtx (talk) 13:37, September 26, 2014 (UTC)

Wouldn't be surprised at all if Blaze = Fire + Yin.--WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 13:41, September 26, 2014 (UTC)

I believe it's Fire+Lightning, but that's just me. Main point is, that Amaterasu is Blaze Release--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 13:45, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
@Elve, then you must belive that Itachi has Lightning. ;o / Rage gtx (talk) 13:48, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, what's so hard to believe about that? Before you say that he didn't use it, then Onoki hasn't used Fire and Wind Releases, Hashirama didn't use Earth and Water Releases separately etc.--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 13:50, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
Hmm... I don't see how two elements that can be used as sources of light such as fire and lightning could create something as dark as Amaterasu. I think Yin would make it dark... but that's your opinion. And you're correct, Amaterasu is Blaze Release, since shaping a nature doesn't advance it. --WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 13:53, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
You do know that the chakra natures aren't actual elements nor actual substances, do you? Fire Release even tho it produces something resembling fire is in fact heated chakra. Lightning Release even tho it seemingly produces electricity is in fact high-frequency vibrated chakra. Wind Release is sharp and thin chakra, not actual air pressure etc. Before you say "But Elve, what about Water and Earth Release, they clearly do produce an actual earth and water, right?" then in a way yes, I think they "do" and if you are interested in my theory as how it works, feel free to ask me on my talkpage :)--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 14:05, September 26, 2014 (UTC)

Nature chakra is like vegan meat. It looks like meat, smells like meat and even tastes like meat to some, but it's not real meat. • Seelentau 愛 14:21, September 26, 2014 (UTC)

@Elve, because they were told to have them on the explanation of Wood Release and KKT. Enton on contrary never stated to have nature more than fire. And every person in narutovese treats is as black fire even Naruto remembered his talk to Yamato about fire and wind when trowed OFRS to Kagutsuchi, and if Enton consisted of lightning, it would conflicted with naruto wind nature on that collaboration. Rage gtx (talk) 14:27, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
You're making this veeeery easy. Also, Enton was never said to require Lightning. • Seelentau 愛 14:30, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
He knows that, he just responds to me because in my opinion Enton is mix of Raiton and Katon, but that again is just my opinion with little to no evidence--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 14:34, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
@Seel, of ways you don't know simplest way is always better(listen for your inner occam's razor for once). About Lightning is Elveonora(as he said) words i operate on. Rage gtx (talk) 14:37, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
I don't think Occam's razor works in a fictional work... but anyway, do you still have any questions about Amaterasu or Blaze Release? I lost track of this discussion^^ • Seelentau 愛 14:40, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
@Seelentau, nope although i stay with my opinion(it's all fancy fire and not KKG itself) i don't think this issue worth to stand for it. Rage gtx (talk) 14:47, September 26, 2014 (UTC)

I would treat Blaze the same way as sand's relation to Magnet Release. We may never get an actual answer--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 15:18, September 26, 2014 (UTC)

Btw, I am aware that chakra fire and real fire are similar, but different. But we'll talk about this on our talkpages. --WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 19:10, September 26, 2014 (UTC)

Seelentau 愛 you don't know me so don't slyly insult me behind that assumption you made. What I was referring to was the arguments/FACTS people were making about whether Amaterasu was an Enton jutsu or not. I just thought it was funny how the majority have now completely accepted the counterarguments/facts others made and are using them as their own now. Don't twist my comment into something it clearly isn't...I expect stuff like that on YouTube, but thought people here could be more respectful/mature. I should've known better. This is the Internet after all...Banan14kab 09:57, September 29, 2014 (UTC)

Many people agreed that the black flames are Enton and the logic/reasoning behind it, the only reason the decision to change it was held back is because of the databook's mention of Amaterasu as Fire Release. The thing is, the databook says more things that are not true, or at least not anymore and Enton simply wasn't a thing at the time the book was published. Kishi came up with Enton later.--Elve [Moderator] Talk Page|Contribs 12:24, September 29, 2014 (UTC)
Okay, we're really beating on a dead horse here. Regarding the topic, what else is there to debate? Shaping a nature doesn't advance it, therefore Amaterasu is Blaze Release. It's just that simple. --WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 13:42, September 29, 2014 (UTC)
Ok Elve and Windstar you guys didn't get the point of my last comment. I already know the history and reason behind the change Elve. Ten Tailed Fox already said you were both right and upon the 4th databook's release the decision will be finalized. An example of the databook not being up to date that was mentioned earlier is the issue of what needs to be awakened (Amaterasu & Tsukoyomi vs. Any two Mangekyo abilities). I wasn't adding to the debate, I just didn't take kindly to Seelentau's reply to my initial post. That's all.Banan14kab 18:52, September 29, 2014 (UTC)
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