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Can someone please explain how a user can be made admin when they have just 422 edits and just basically went to Dantman and asked for the position ? As has been mentioned multiple times, we don't need more admins. If going to Dantman and saying "I'd like to help out the wiki and get rid of vandalism" instantly gives you admin status, then you might as well just make every single user admin. There is no need for this unnecessary promotion of random users who have barely made edits. Hell, you could give me, Cerez, UltimateSupreme and a ton of other users admin because they want to "help" the wiki and "clear out" vandalism. None of this can be achieved without admin status according to Dantman >_>
- Yeah and I was really surprised how someone with only 422 edits can become an admin. I am just pointing out what's the best reason to make him an admin while he's not very active like Cerez or other editors out here. ~IndxcvNovelist (talk | contribs | PR | RLS) 17:46, October 30, 2012 (UTC)
- I support Speysider on this one.—
As a user with only about 400 edits myself, I personally find it rather insulting that you're all ragging on this just because he asked and was made an Admin. Sure, I'm clueless, I wouldn't expect to get a position like that over the likes of Cerez or whatever who clearly understand the system here better, but I'd like to think that the number of edits isn't the yardstick by which we measure people round here. If Omni went to another wiki, even if he had less Edits, he'd still have the experience of being an Admin, so putting him into the position ahead of someone with more edits who has never had that job would make sense, wouldn't it? Ten Tails already brought up to Dantman that they're an Admin on other wikis and while I'll admit I don't find the fact that one of those is a Fanon wiki particularly reassuring, its still something. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 18:57, October 30, 2012 (UTC)
- Put simply, I have administration experience on other sites. I've been an admin on the Naruto Fanon Wiki, the Bleach Fan Fiction Wiki, and the founder of the Cystic Fibrosis Wiki since back in 2008. On the second site (Bleach), I actually preside over the entire administration team. I'm no novice at this. That aside, I've made many competent edits around the site and participate regularly in discussions. Some of the prominent users know me from this site or know of me from others. Edit counts are not going to be used to judge a user's character. Furthermore, being an admin doesn't mean I'm the boss of anyone, or anything like that. As Dantman and I discussed, its not a status symbol. Its a few extra buttons that allows me to help folks out, and since I'm far past what most users on this site (especially the admins) are up, I'm usually around when the new chapters first come out and can at least provide preliminary information where I couldn't before (due to protection and such) before the others get here the following morning. Lastly, I, as an admin on Naruto Fanon, dealt with a major vandal crisis awhile back and was able to effectively neutralize it with the help of my wiki members, so I know how to handle vandals, and with sysop properties, can handle them during the time of night that most of you aren't here. Speysider, I do take some offense to the fact that you're making such a big fuss about it. If you were concerned, you could have simply discussed this with Dantman, Omnibender, the other admins, or myself at our talk pages. I would've been happy to explain this to you privately. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20:15, October 30, 2012 (UTC)
- Just to make sure everyone remembers, let's keep this nice and civilized. Alright? Nice and civilized.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 20:41, October 30, 2012 (UTC)
- Yes please xD haha ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20:44, October 30, 2012 (UTC)
I'm concerned that people are simply getting admin just because they ask. I don't care what other wikis you admin as you could be admin'ing 5 different wikis and be a completely crap admin (no offence). And I do make a big fuss whenever some major change gets made just because someone goes to a sysop, asks to be admin, gets that status and is, at best, hardly active. Honestly, this should've been discussed with the rest of the wiki before just doing it so that everyone can get their opinion made known. Like when I brought up needing a second sysop. I'm not saying you'll be a bad admin, but I just don't think any real discussion was made with the community at large. What happens if other editors don't want you to be an admin because there's enough of them ? That's all I'm getting at: don't just give someone a flag without discussion with the community so that everyone's views can be made known. And to be quite frank, you don't really need to be given admin status to do all the things you plan on doing: there are talkpages (and people get to them when they can): the most you should really have, imo, is rollback. Don't need any more admins, like it was made known when I made it clear more sysop's were needed. And tbh, if you take big offence over this, then I question whether your suitable for an admin post at all. And fyi, if the amount of edits means nothing, then just give every random person who asks an admin flag, even if they won't use it properly, because that's what you are all implying at. This is exactly why I don't really edit here anymore: impulsive decisions made on a whim without discussion or people flooding the uploader with needless images. This is a big wiki and it needs community based decisions or it will just go in the wrong direction. >_> --Speysider Talk Page | My Image Uploads | Tabber Code | My Wiki | Channel 21:13, October 30, 2012 (UTC)
At least he does not delete edits without reasons, as some here do. Honestly? Everyone is jealous of the guy. Create shame on those of you filthy faces before speaking who deserves or does not deserve.--Sasameandhaley (talk) 21:18, October 30, 2012 (UTC)
- ^ what ?
- And to add on to what I said: experience also has no relevance either as someone could have admin'd over 10 different wiki's and not done a good job, but hey they have the experience. Basically, this promotion was done on someone's whim and not a REAL community decision like every other wiki does promotions and I loathe admins who make such decisions without bothering to consult his memberbase. --Speysider Talk Page | My Image Uploads | Tabber Code | My Wiki | Channel 21:39, October 30, 2012 (UTC)
Pardon me if I am wrong, but you Speysider, are always first in pointing sticks, and sharpening blades. You are always the one who has been ultimately denied of his rights, privileges. You always point out the importance of the community, but absolutely always deep underneath I find your personal offendment caused by some sudden changes, promotions from which you were excluded, shrouded under "community goals". I try very hard not to misjudge you, but your approach is always harsh, bitter and it always seems the discussion won't reach an end with all parties satisfied. Why don't you wait a week and then judge our new admin? I emphasize I may be wrong but resentment, resentment is what I feel. Way ago when I joined, things were rather quiet. The temperature is constantly rising these days...--Vecanoi (talk) 22:59, October 30, 2012 (UTC)
I'm okay with the decision, it's Dantman's wiki after all. But if we had to vote, I'd give my voice to Cerez and such. Also I don't see an extra admin as a serious game changer, no reason to panic over it. As long as he doesn't abuse his "power" and stays as he is, then I'm a happy folk--Elveonora (talk) 23:07, October 30, 2012 (UTC)
What exactly is this 'experience'? Omni might have been given admin rights here, Avatar wiki and maybe somewhere else too... But that wasn't because he had been an admin somewhere else. That was because of his hard work on every wiki he went (and goes). He, Jacce and others might not have even known what an admin means when they were made one... but they all made great administrators. If you were talking about experience with using the extra tools; there are nice help pages seeing which anyone can use those (Links on this page) or if you want you can ask for any help on CC Forums.
Different wikis have different communities working, different policies and cultures and content. Just because you make a great admin on some wiki doesn't mean that you would do the same somewhere else. @Ten Tailed Fox: Which protected pages were you talking about? —
- ^Took the words right out of my mouth. I don't really care or give a damn as to what some person does on other wiki's: what I DO care about is what they have done on THIS wiki to get admin. If I was Dantman, I'd have been more concerned about the work someone has put in on this wiki and NOT the work that user has put in elsewhere. On my own sites, I do not go around promoting people to admin just because they are a stellar admin from some other random site that they've done well on: I look to see how they contribute on my site and then I promote based on how they behave on my site. UltimateSupreme basically summed up everything I was going to say.
- Vecanoi, it's replies like yours that make me not want to edit on this wiki. You are all quick to attack me for anything, regardless if it's valid and you do not read what I say properly anymore. More of you guys need to stop jumping to flaming and trolling my posts and actually read what I am saying --Speysider Talk Page | My Image Uploads | Tabber Code | My Wiki | Channel 08:51, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
While I don't have much to say on this, since it is Dan's decision, I am a bit uhm shocked about the people who are mentioning my name lol. Not that it's a bad thing, just surprising since I argue with most of you... a lot xD. That being said, I'm assuming TenTailedFox has been given the admin flag? Congratulations then. The users don't mean it maliciously, just the fact that it comes as a bit of shock because admin experience or no, you are fairly new to this wikia and our culture so I can see where the others are coming from. Being an Sysop/using the position's privileges is something that can be learned over time either way.--Cerez365™(talk) 10:33, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
- Speysider and Cerez are right. ~IndxcvNovelist (talk | contribs | PR | RLS) 14:04, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks Cerez. I understand the surprise at the situation, it isn't the first time I've been through a similar situation, so I don't think Speysider and the others are being malicious or anything. I think I will surprise them once they are given a chance to see that I'm no different from them, and won't treat them wrong or anything of the sort. Whether your edit count is 50,000 or 300, the count shouldn't matter. If you have anything your personally concerned about, Speysider, this is for you specifically, since you seem the most concerned, direct it to my talk page please. I'd be happy to talk to you about it in depth there, if you'd like. It may not quell any of the fears you have, but might put your mind at peace at the very least. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 15:05, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
- I think it's better if it stays in one place: this thread. Honestly I think what would have been better is that you had actually contributed more, became noticed by the admins and then being asked by Dantman if you wanted a promotion. From what I remember you were randomly appearing, and weren't all that active. Then you just suddenly appear out of nowhere and have an admin flag. That's what gets me annoyed because you haven't been around to know the culture of this wiki and it does not help when someone like yourself appears and becomes admin. In all honestly, Cerez has been around for much longer and has been much more active and he knows the culture of the wiki so much more than you do so he would've been a better candidate for adminship and not you. I haven't really seen much from you in the way of edits or reverting edits that makes this promotion really thought out and detailed. --Speysider Talk Page | My Image Uploads | Tabber Code | My Wiki | Channel 18:23, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
It doesn't make sense that we linger and bicker over this, I highly doubt Dan will change his mind because of it. It's best we just let things as is, one more sysop can't hurt the wikia... could it?--Cerez365™(talk) 01:47, November 1, 2012 (UTC)
- I concur with Cerez. This argument is pointless and will get us nowhere. Also, Ultimate is right. I have been a reader, occasional commenter, and observer of this wiki since 2010, and have become progressively more active ever since. I do know the culture of this wiki and am familiar with quite a few users around here. And, if you think 400 edits is small, on both wikis I was first made sysop on, I had been a member for no longer than a few weeks at best. It isn't about the number of edits, its about the quality of those edits. I have made a number of quality edits around this wiki. But even that isn't the point. Sysop is not a status symbol on this wiki. It is a tool used to be of service to the wiki and its community. I really don't think an extra guard against vandals and an additional sysop helping had, especially one who is around the moment new chapters are released, would be of harm to the wiki. That being said, I respectfully bow out of this conversation at this point. The consensus seems to be that there is no need to continue this discussion as Dantman has made his verdict and several users have voiced their consent or agreement with the decision, therefore I think it is time to move on to other, more important, issues. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 05:36, November 1, 2012 (UTC)
- Make no mistake, I've thought about it, and I don't believe the appointment is fair because one, we were told never to ask for adminship because it would not be given to us. If people had known that the post could be applied for using "work experience" many of us would have done it from before now. I know its said that it isn't a status symbol but that is incorrect in some sense, because the truth of the matter is that sysops are being put in charge of the wikia, which is what people have an issue with because lurking or no since 2010, you are not known. There are a lot of active users who, in my opinion have made great strides in the way of contributions (quality and all), there's a young SimAnt-like protégé who would do well with those rights in my opinion. I also believe your reason for wanting the position is inherently flawed: wanting to update information on protected pages when the chapter comes out, just because you happen to be awake. The one incident of that which I can recall was actually due to a current sysop having the foresight to protect the article. Usually it's a good thing because it stops the constant addition and subtraction of misinterpreted information forcing people to go to the talkpages. I however decided not to take the path of "righteous indignation" because it doesn't really affect my editing, and I'm getting way too old and would like to retire from this place with some dignity.--Cerez365™(talk) 10:24, November 1, 2012 (UTC)
- Something must be in the air, I've hardly seen Cerez agree with my reasoning in years :lol:.
- Wiki's operate on the principle that the community is what builds it. Dantman's decision to promote someone who is a relatively unknown to the wiki without consultation with the community means this wiki is technically violating the basic rules and principles of how a wiki is meant to work. Everytime a new feature is introduced by Wikia, as you all know, a member of staff comes over and posts a thread, looking for the community to respond with their comments or concerns. It is the same when a new sysop or admin is to be chosen: the community makes the choice. Like Cerez said, this is an unfair promotion because it's just common sense you do not ask for power because it makes you look like you want to use that power for the wrong reasons (not saying you will but that's what many others will say). If you get noticed by the community, do many contributions and are generally respected within the community and have a number of edits, then it's usually put to a vote and the majority vote is what decides the outcome. Quite clearly here, there is ZERO community participation and it makes many people ponder as to whether this is a locked down system where we cannot have a community decision on everything and sysop's just go around promoting people at random who ask, regardless of edit count. Only a few people seem to understand that experience on other wiki's means absolutely nothing to getting an admin position here. If you do a terrible job here, do you expect to be given admin position ? No. If you do an excellent job on some other wiki, do you expect to be given an admin position here? No.
- Admin and Sysop positions are status symbol. Why ? Because if a user has a problem, they are going to go to someone who is an administrator more than someone who isn't. They are not flags: they are a symbol to indicate this user is trusted to operate the wiki. If you continue to call them flags, then it means you don't know the true danger of what an administrator is. Forum owners don't go calling admins "flags" because it is a dangerous position that cannot be given lightly and it is therefore a status of someone who is well trusted in that specific community to manage the site. Unlike in most forum software where you can restrict what admins do, you cannot restrict administrative access in MediaWiki without using unnecessary extensions that can do more harm than good. If someone is given administrator status, you are basically putting your trust into them not to destroy your wiki. Under Dantman's current ideals, someone could be nice and caring and say that they wish to help out and would like to have admin status. Next minute, this user gets admin status and the wiki is destroyed. Yeah, I don't think we should continue calling them flags incase a situation like this occurs: calling them a status that you must earn rightfully is more appropriate.
- I think it's time that people start discussing things with the community more or this is not a wiki. It's funny because people link to Wikipedia all the time here (like assuming good faith) but don't listen to what it says. --Speysider Talk Page | My Image Uploads | Tabber Code | My Wiki | Channel 13:09, November 1, 2012 (UTC)
- You said it too long Speysider but every bit make sense.
- I agree with Cerez too.
- It's not fair for TTF to get admin when Salil and a load of others are more appropriate for the position. I thought of this since yesterday, how come that the admin status is not a symbol? It should be considered a symbol, as Speysider said. I know that many people want to be an admin in this wiki (and including me) and it must be something people should work hard. I do understand that I'm not still that deserving because I have still something to improve on my editings here. It's better if TTF wasted his time doing thousands edits and that will honestly is not too much of a problem (Cerez has 35K edits, been here for almost three years already and is a prominent editor). You should have edited more (reaching more than 3K then asked Dantman about the admin rights), at least consider the community's reaction. Like Spey, I don't give a damn if you handled so many wikis (I am aware that on some, you worked hard and have thousands edits and that makes sense).
- I'm not saying you have no right to be an admin. This is just not the right time.
- ~IndxcvNovelist (talk | contribs | PR | RLS) 20:05, November 1, 2012 (UTC)
- Ten Tailed Fox is an admin now? lol :D Never seen him, though...Well, aren't we having enough admins like Omni, TU3 who are active enough...btw, if there is someone who deserves to be an admin...then that would be Cerez.. akz! 15:44, November 2, 2012 (UTC)
Sysop is a tool, a series of rights that let you do some things to the wiki an average user can't do. They are not a status symbol. A sysop doesn't get to end a discussion with a result against consensus. A sysop doesn't get to make the wiki rules alone. Having sysop doesn't give any more authority to a user than a user without it. And different users get sysop for different purposes. Back when I gave SimAnt sysop (and iirc perhaps Omnibender too) I didn't trust him to know enough to deal with policy related stuff like I trusted TheUltimate3 and Jacce to deal with that, but he dealt with a lot of spam and was good with templates and I gave him sysop so he could do some stuff on his own.
And trying to relate user groups here to forum rights and suggest they are dangerous is ridiculous. This is not forum software, this is wiki software. Everything done is logged and can be undone. Just as users can't do any permanent damage, sysops can't either. Rogue sysop scenarios?
- Sysop goes rogue, blocks 1000 users; Sysop loses rights, 1000 users are unblocked.
- Sysop goes rogue, deletes every page on the wiki; Sysop loses rights, all pages are restored, sysop probably gets a ban.
- Sysop goes rogue, inserts an attack script into site code; Other sysop disables JS and reverts the code. Sysop loses rights. Staff fix any minor damage. Sysop likely ends up global blocked.
None of the possible scenarios cause any real damage to the wiki, a non-sysop could do a similar level of damage with a priviledge-less bot (and frankly, bot attacks are even more annoying to deal with than a rogue sysop), and none of these scenarios are really even likely at all. (( ;) heck, I could do that last one without needing sysop))
Sysop has nothing to do with the number of edits a user has made, how long they have been on the wiki, or simply alone because they're sysop elsewhere, it's not some thing you earn in any way as some prize you get after achieving certain things on the wiki. And no-one gets sysop because someone thinks that they 'deserve' it. There have been and will continue to be users making lots of great edits to the wiki who still never have a reason to be given a sysop flag during the entire time they are editing here. The factors that got Ten Tailed Fox sysop were relatively the same as for other users who got sysop.
Heck if you want to see the lack of relation between edit counts and sysop just take a look at Jacce, Simant, Cerez365 (sorry Cerez365), and Omnibender's edit counts. Cerez365 has been here since 2009, and has 37k edits. Simant has been here since earlier in the same year, yet he only has 17k edits. Omnibender is the one user with slightly more edits than Cerez365 at 39k edits. But Omnibender has been here for more than a year before Cerez365 was here. Yet Jacce, who has been here the longest of them all -- two years before Cerez365 -- only has 21k edits.
2/3 sysops, both who have been here longer than Cerez365 have less edits than him. If you take a good look at the kinds of edits the users make you might manage to see the reasons why. Cerez365 looks like a content editor. He makes a lot of edits to the content on the wiki. Not only that, but he even creates whole articles for the wiki. Jacce on the other hand makes reverts, page protection, blocks, etc... but doesn't do much actual content editing besides fixing some issues. Simant makes reverts, template edits, talk and forum edits, tests things in the sandbox but likewise doesn't to a lot of content editing. Now Omnibender is on a different part of the scale. Like Cerez365 you can see that Omnibender makes a lot of edits to the content. Though he does a lot more reverting junk than Cerez365 does.
So edit count has little to do with high edit counts. It's more of a factor of what kind of editing you do on the wiki (well, frequency too of course). And in fact most users suited for sysop will actually naturally have smaller edit counts. Because the kinds of editing sysops do here doesn't boost edit counts as much as normal user's content editing does. Frankly Cerez365 will probably continue as-is and never have a real need for anyone to give him a sysop flag. ~ Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (Local Talk ⁝ Animanga Talk) 01:10, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
Someone is just butthurt about not being given admin rights. Behavior > Status, Edit Quality > Edit Quantity. Also I dare to say that creative work is more important than administrative one sometimes, as wikias are made of articles, and without them, well... would not be much here to manage. But yeah... What the heck ? I had some disagreements with Foxie in the past, thus I soundly declare, let the protest begin!!! No way a user who opposes my words shall act as my superior. I vote Cerez, we hate each other as well, but he can make me laugh once in a while. Joking put aside, congratulations for the promotion--Elveonora (talk) 02:14, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
I don't care about edit counts...Even Droid pads his edit count by uploading shits....But that doesn't give him the sysop rights, does it? I'm not nominating Cerez for his edit counts, but for his activeness...He can delete vandal pages, remove unwanted fanarts, ban the vanadal users, protect an article as soon as something tempting in a manga chapter is released as quickly as possible as he is more active than some of the admins here...But as you, Daniel Friesen, said that's the same work being done by the other admins Omni, Jacce and Simant, then why did you make TTF an admin, in the first place? His experience? lol...He bribed you or what? Why did you grant TTF this so called tool, when there are enough sysop for the above mentioned works of this tool....? And, why should we care about edit counts, when you, who has 10K edits most of which are on template or policies, is the owner of Narutopedia? Corruption Attacks! akz! 04:19, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
- Clarification: Dantman has 10,418 edits as of this message. I don't know where you got the 700 from. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 04:45, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
And no one owns Narutopedia (infact any wiki). But I do agree that this was a completely unnecessary change and you are also contradicting yourself in the above post.—
- I'm not contradicting anything. All I was doing was correcting an incorrect statistic. Nothing more was claimed or added in my statement. I agree with Dantman's assessment entirely. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 05:05, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
I was actually saying that to Dantman.—
- 699 is in animanga... akz! 05:32, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
Someone is just butthurt about not being given admin rights.
- Nobody is butthurt and even if I was, I don't give two damn shits about being a sysop of a wiki where you can get sysop for no apparent reason.
- Like UltimateSupreme said, this is an unnecessary change as TTF can do everything Dantman said without the sysop rights (who gives a shit if you (TTF) are the only one awake when a chapter is released >_>) and there are multiple inconsistencies with Dantman's supposed assessment. --Speysider Talk Page | My Image Uploads | Tabber Code | My Wiki | Channel 10:26, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
All right guys, I think we either need to take a break from this forum or just let it go altogether. I do agree with Dan's assessment, it's pretty spot on, and I do get that you guys are affronted by the promotion but look at it this way: it doesn't affect what you do here, so there's no need for you to get so agitated about it. Accept the fact that he's been promoted even though you might not agree with it, and move on.--Cerez365™(talk) 11:29, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
I don't even get why you guys would want Cerez365 to deal with going around and cleaning up trivial spam. Cerez365 is a brilliant content editor. He's continually improving the fundamental piece of the wiki. Why push him into something like going around and cleaning up spam? That kind of thing is just a distraction from the great work he's already doing. If we even needed someone else to deal with spam, etc... White Flash's editing style would be a better fit.
Different users get sysop for different purposes. The same assessment for Ten Tailed Fox was fine; "Is there a useful reason for him to have that flag?" "Do we need another user doing 'that' or is there a different unique reason for him to have that flag?" "Is his psychology fine? Does he look responsible and mature enough to handle the rights? Does it look like he considers the rights properly, as a tool, not a status; eg: it won't change how he acts on the wiki?". It's a bit of a simplification, but that's pretty much how everyone got sysop. (Oh and two secrets about Project:Rules. First, that last bit is what 90% of everyone who actually asks for sysop fails on. That's the origin of why the rules page contains the "Do not ask for Sysop status on the Wiki, it won't be given to you." rule. And secret number 2 about Project:Rules... that is actually a stock page C&Ped across several wikis, it's very generic. Time and time again I've contemplated deleting it. But I could never get around to figuring out which bits I should actually reorganize into other pages nor could I figure out what I would even write on the policy index page. ;) right now that page is practically placeholder.)
Ten Tailed Fox's sysop flag has nothing to do with cleaning up spam, etc... (though it's fine for him to use it for that when it runs across it) or anything that another sysop is already doing. It's to edit protected infoboxes and articles. Chapters come out, and there's a mix of controversial and non-controversial information in them. Thanks to the edit wars over controversial information we can't let normal users handle updating this information. But there still is information to update. Till now our other sysops have sorted through talkpages later on and made edits to protected pages. But besides potentially being asleep with their own lives to deal with, those sysops primarily do spam stuff, deal with users, etc... Why have them deal with the same issue over and over when we've got someone else who can do that?
So why not wait and see what kind of improvements happen as new chapters come out now that we actually have someone specifically making those changes, rather than it being a side task. ~ Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (Local Talk ⁝ Animanga Talk) 12:14, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
- So you think that TFF's writing level is the best? Let's see.... If it would have been about writing level, then Blackstar1 would be the best choice... Anyways, let's wait and see... akz! 12:32, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
- Ten Tailed Fox just has right intersecting the time availability, desire to do it, and the right maturity/psyc. to use the flag. Even if he isn't the best at writing he should still be able to handle other user's requests who may come up with better writing for him to add.
- Blackstar1 doesn't seem to be around editing that frequently. ~ Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (Local Talk ⁝ Animanga Talk) 14:48, November 3, 2012 (UTC)