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I want you to remove the Uchiha Madara article on this site. You are spreading false information and people shouldn't have to be given wrong information. I've taken the liberty of personally picking apart every aspect of this argument so save the trouble and just take the article off. It's wrong. It's false. You don't know who Tobi is. No one does. And above all...that information was terrible. I expected better from an entire page on it. That took me but one minute to disprove everything on that page.
- And I want you to hear The Great Kawas Words from Wikipedia Prime
Kept here incase I need them. The best form of logic we have.
Alright, I'll clear this up for the people who are clueless as to Japanese. I am no expert, but I am taking the JLPT and I have studied Japanese and act as an amateur translator. What Tobi says exactly is:「写輪眼の本当の力が・・・このうちはマダラの力が 」Which in roumaji transliterates to "Sharingan no hontou no chikara ga...kono Uchiha Madara no chikara ga." Which in English literally means: "The Sharingan's true power...this/that, Uchiha Madara's power." Now, I and other amateur translators suggested on the forums where this Japanese was discussed that it meant he was referring to the "power of Uchiha Madara" which meant the Sharingan or something like that. However, expert translators and native Japanese have said that the "kono" which is usually used as a demonstrative adjective for "this/that (object)" is used sort of as a pronoun in reference to himself (a supervillain way, some translators said as when Zabuza said "Kono Momochi Zabuza" to refer to say "I am Momochi Zabuza") and his power. And the translation has been looked at over and over again by experts in Japanese and that seems to be the general consensus. So, wisen up and accept the translation! The great kawa 01:47, 28 July 2007 (UTC
Boom. There ya have it. In case you can come up with ANYTHING that beats this type of logic, then as of now, Madara Uchiha is Tobi. Good Game.--TheUltimate3 03:09, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I find that funny. You telling me to wisen up. You know what I find funnier? You use that as a point. Being a writer myself, I know one of the stupidest things to do. Is come out and say something. Now why would Kishimoto...the first time we see this side of Tobi...ruin the mystery for us? Is he that bad a writer to do that? No. He's a good writer, there is no way he is 100% Madara. And even if he said, I am Madara. He's not Madara because again, no writer should ever come out...and say something. That is a horrible mistake and any writer here would agree, you should never do something like that, it ruins the storyline for that person and makes the story less surprising, Asuma could of just gone, "I'm going to die in 3 chapters! Hope your ready for it!", or Naruto, "I'm gonna go 4-Tails and kick some ass in 239 episodes! Hope your still watching!" Writers never do that, it's a foolish, almost rookie mistake, and Kishimoto's no rookie.
- Because for the longest part Tobi was the loveable goof ball of the Akatsuki, nowhere near the evil badass Madara Uchiha is. As such, also as a writer (In retrospect, the classification of "Writer" is very loose. Technically as long as you can write a story, come up with stories rather complex or very simple counts as a writer.) it makes perfect sense. For months people had seen Tobi and gone "Oh snap, that guys Obito! ObiTobi! Whooo! Only to have Madara Uchiha slap in their face. Now with that, you have shown me nothing other than "writer propaganda" that "No writer would do blah blah blah" than my point remains more valid.--TheUltimate3 03:33, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
You said he said he was Madara. Well if he was and since you seem to know so much you must know the answer to this too genius....um...Why is he still in disguise. Why does he still have the mask? He doesn't need it anymore. We all know who he is. And everyone else in Akatsuki knows too, so why would he still be Tobi? Lemme guess...to make sure no one comes after him...I mean after all....he's the strongest person alive...he can't handle someone [I]fighting[/I] him! That's madness! MADNESS!!!!
Why does he have the mask? I don't know. I don't care. The point is he said he was Madara Uchiha, Pein said he was Madara Uchiha. I am sure beyond a reasonable doubt that out of the (usually) 10 members of Akatsuki, only Konan, Zetsu and Pein knew Tobi was Madara. Everyone else just knew him as Zetsu former subordinate, Tobi. Why he is in disguise is not an issue when it comes to presented facts, so I won't go off in a tangent of speculation.--TheUltimate3 04:09, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Sometimes...just every once and a while...think outside the presented facts...and dig deeper for something even more. Nothing is ever how it seems... Try and remember that.
- My duty to the Wiki is to go by the facts, not speculation. If I am going to "dig deeper" its only into things that are backed up by even more facts, and not random or seemingly random things I brought together. Why does Tobi where a mask? Because Madara Uchiha probably found the horrid decomposing body of Obito Uchiha and reanimated it with his spirit. Does it sound reasonable? In a show with a giant demon fox, a man who can move from one body to another, and man who manages to function quite well for not sleeping AT ALL in his 13 years of life, anything seems reasonable. Will i add it the article in any section past "Past Speculation" of course not. Why? Because its all just a bunch of research I threw together in my head.--TheUltimate3 04:23, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Since it looks like the discussion is going in the way that Talk:Haku did, I'm going to step in and note something.
Wiki are based on consensus. For the most part when we have small bits of info that could be discussed if you started to assume a lot (As this discussion and the discussion on Haku's gender do) we go by what was stated and happened in the series. And when we do have facts on things, but there are translation disputes we go by the common belief and use Wikipedia's decisions to help determine ours.
For examples of use in the past:
- An old bit of fanon was that the Fourth Hokage was Naruto's father. We never documented this as fact until the series confirmed this.
- Haku has an androgynous appearance which can confuse people to his gender. The decision was to treat him as male because he stated in the series that he was male, the common belief was that he was male, and Wikipedia treats him as male.
As for this case:
- Wikipedia states "During their conversation, [Tobi] refers to himself as Madara Uchiha."
- The common belief is that Tobi is Madara Uchiha.
And so we consider Tobi to Madara. If the storyline of the series reveals an event which disproves that with a fact, then we'll change the article to reflect that. But while the only counter to Madara's statement is assumption, we'll use the common belief.
If you want an idea why he doesn't remove his mask, Wikipedia says "It seems, however, that [Madara] still has some vested interest in maintaining the illusion of himself as the carefree Tobi, as he reverts to this personality upon encountering a group of Konoha ninja."
If you try to use any sort of indirect logic to reason something, then you can come up with reasons for nearly anything to mean anything. So we only use direct logic, not indirect logic. Assuming that because Tobi states he is Madara, and since the Sharingan he has is part of the Uchiha clan he has some direct relation to being "Madara Uchiha" (Whether he is the original, or a reincarnation), is ok because those are direct facts from the series being reasoned with. But assuming that Tobi is not Madara Uchiha because Kishimoto as a writer wouldn't come out and say something isn't ok, because you do not know how Kishimoto thinks, and what he is planning to do with the story. That is a indirect assumption which can't be used. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Jan 3, 2008 @ 06:45 (UTC)
i had a felling the next bad guy was gona be a uchiha
is it true that he is the uchiha founder and also is the akuski leader i am in america i read and watch on the net
...So am I and I already knew all of that. Yes Madara Uchiha founded the Uchiha Clan, while Pein answers to Madara, Madara already said that Pein is still the leader.--TheUltimate3 23:19, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
well i manly just watch but i wonder who is going to kill Madara maby just mabey i hope it will be a combined effort between sasuke and naruto-xero 8 28 pm jan 3 Where i live any ways
'"The Sharingan's true power...this/that, Uchiha Madara's power." Now, I and other amateur translators suggested on the forums where this Japanese was discussed that it meant he was referring to the "power of Uchiha Madara" which meant the Sharingan or something like that. However, expert translators and native Japanese have said that the "kono" which is usually used as a demonstrative adjective for "this/that (object)" is used sort of as a pronoun in reference to himself'
I actually disagree with you. Just because somebody uses a demonstrative adjective doesn't mean they're referring to themselves. And besides, your argument, as stated there, makes little sense.
As I see it, the sentence reads, as you say, as follows:
"The Sharingan's true power...this/that, Uchiha Madara's power."
By the rules of language, the 'this/that' can only refer to a number of things in the sentence. It could be referring to the Sharingan (as in... 'this/that is the Sharingan's true power'), or it could be referring to Uchiha Madara (as in 'this/that is Uchiha Madara's power'). Now. I ask. Why on earth would someone standing around on their own, as Tobi is in this instance, start mouthing off his identity, which he has kept incredibly secret by wearing a mask, to no-one in particular? There's no one else around. He already knows who he is! Why would he need to say it? That would be like me standing in a room on my own with nobody to hear me and saying "I am Sherbetmayhem!". It makes very little sense to do so, and Kishimoto's characters have consistently been realistically and sensually driven throughout the entire series.
Furthermore, I don't see how saying "This/That is Uchiha Madara's power" or "I have Uchiha Madara's power" in any way proves that Tobi is saying that he is Uchiha Madara. I can quite easily say "I am good at woodwork! This is the power of my great great grandfather" and it not mean "I am my great great grandfather".
I'm not saying that Tobi is or isn't Uchiha Madara. But the point of any literature is to create debate and mystery. You can't get insanely angry at an article for writing "Tobi refers to himself as Uchiha Madara". Each and every reader is entitled to think for themselves regarding the identity of any character in any book. You have no right to tell them otherwise! Let people come to their own conclusions based on the translations and leave it at that. Kishimoto probably wanted to intensify the debate regarding such a mysterious character. And before you say it - Kishimoto is an incredibly talented writer. And artist. Don't slander by saying you can't class him as a writer, and don't slander by saying 'anyone who can put together a sentence can write'. Kishimoto is incredible at what he does. The storylines, the techniques, and the artwork are sublime and that is what makes Naruto the best selling manga to date for Viz Media.
I'm sure that, whatever the identity of Tobi turns out to be, it will be a brilliant read. Kishimoto hasn't let any of his readers down before. Let's just wait and see!
--HantouMclean 22:12, 13 January 2008 (UTC)some say that tobi is obito,kakashis deceased partner.others say that he is madara uchiha.Well i think he is a combination of the 2(laugh or yell if you want,i dont care).for some reason i have this feeling that pein really 'hired' kakazu not to help hidan as a partner,but to sew tobis and madaras remains together.i know it sounds crazy,but he says he has madaras powers,not that he is madara and contained the power to begin with.and what better other part of a body was the last half of obitos.besides,madara was dead far before tobi was 'born'.And tobi only has one whole for the eye on the right of his mask.Obito gave kakashi his good left eye,that is why.You can delete this if you want,i was just trying to get my thought through.
Adding to this guys point madara has so far only shown his left eye as an adult maybe he has no right eye and kakuzu sew them together becouse of that.And madara could be taking over his body like orochimaru is doing with kabuto maybe ShadowShukaku 19:41, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
madara cannot be obito
If you remember well the chapters of kakashi gaiden in tome 27, you should know that obito's right eye was crushed by a rock along with half of his body. Madara/Tobi's mask only shows his right eye. This means Tobi still as at least his right eye, and since Obito's right eye was crushed, there simply is no way Tobi is Obito. And anyway Obito wasn't strong at all and he was a good guy, how/why could he possibly be the leader of akatsuki?
But zetsu or someone else could have used a jutsu to save him and his eye.probably why zetsu was first seen with him.And obito sais to kakashi in kakashi gaiden when kakashi doesnt want to save rin 'If thats what being a shinobi means.Then ill crush all the so called shinobi.'ShadowShukaku 19:36, 17 December 2008 (UTC)