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Summer 2011 Discussion

Now that there are even more Rasengan variants out, I would like to bring up this topic again. The way we handle the naming of the Rasengan variants is rather inconsistent and leads to many possibly confusing names.

I'd like to suggest that all those Rasengan variants that actually don't have the name 'Rasengan' unmodified like that, should get their names translated like all the other techniques out there (besides the Chidori variants).

This means techniques like the Ōdama Rasengan are named as 'Big Ball Rasengan', but techniques like the Fūton: Rasen Shuriken and the Senjutsu: Rasenrengan are named as 'Wind Release: Spiralling Shuriken' and 'Sage Technique: Spiralling Group Spheres'.

I think this will lessen the confusion and make the naming of the Rasengan variants a bit more consistent and helpful. —ShounenSuki (talk | contribs | translations) 16:41, June 29, 2011 (UTC)

I'm fine with moving the others, but I think Rasen Shuriken should be kept as is.--Deva 27 16:45, June 29, 2011 (UTC)

I'd be fine with it tambien.--Cerez365 Hyūga Symbol 16:49, June 29, 2011 (UTC)

I got the same opinion as Deva. Fmakck (Images | contribs) 18:12, June 29, 2011 (UTC)

Keeping Rasen Shuriken as it is should be okay, but why do you think it should be? —ShounenSuki (talk | contribs | translations) 21:00, June 29, 2011 (UTC)
I just think it sounds better than "Spiralling Shuriken", though I wouldn't mind if it was changed. Fmakck (Images | contribs) 21:07, June 29, 2011 (UTC)
I am of mind that "Rasen" works. The problem is it works better in some than in others. For example, Rasenrengan and Rasenrangan (ignoring how STUPID EASY it is to misspell both of them) work. Great Ball Rasen Tarengan would work as "Rasentarengan", but "Rasenchotarengan" starts to become word salad.
If this makes any sense.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 01:15, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
Uhm, butting in for a second: Why don't you translate the Shuriken part? Also, I never understood why you translate each and every Jutsu, except for Chidori and Rasengan. Wouldn't it be the best to translate everything or nothing? Seelentau 愛 01:24, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
It's been an interesting trip with those two jutsu. One reason if i remember correctly is that these two are the only jutsu that have gone truly untranslated between English and Japanese. While everything else is given some sort of VIZ translation or whatever, Chidori and Rasengan do not. Adding that they are two major characters signature moves and you have something of a Legacy exemption among jutsu.
Now why we don't translate "Shuriken", I assume it's because shuriken is accepted as know...a name.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 01:28, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, I thought that would be the reason... well, I think it's kind of wrong, but anyways, it's not my issue in the end. Buuuut shuriken is a real word, while at least Rasengan is a fantasy, made up word. Chidori is real again, since it comes from this story about that guy who cut the Raijin. So if you want to be 100% correct, you' have to translate Rasengan and leave Chidori as it is. At least that's my opinion. Seelentau 愛 01:37, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
Like I said, Chidori and Rasengan got the exempt for basically being Legacy jutsu (that's going to be my new name for this sort of thing >.>) and before all the jutsu that directly derived from them followed suit. The problem came when Kishimoto decided he was going to make Rasengans derived jutsu so flipping word salady we are left with the aforementioned "Rasenchotarengan".--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 01:45, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
I dislike translating shuriken because:手裏剣
  1. It is a well-known and oft-used word in English;
  2. It really doesn't have a good translation (hand underside sword? really?);
  3. Kunai also isn't translated, nor is makibishi, nor other stereotypical shinobi tools.
The reason I'm personally not against keeping at least Rasengan and Chidori untranslated is because they simply almost unknown under their English names; they are the most important techniques in the series, allowing for a special status; and in the case of Chidori because of its historical roots.
Still, I think only the unaltered uses of the main techniques' names should be granted this exclusion. These two techniques are so well-known that practically everyone already knows what their names mean and that using the English translations would be less helpful than using the Japanese names.
When the names are altered, though, things become different. Rasengan means 'spiralling sphere', but what would the 'ren' in Rasenrengan mean? It quickly becomes confusing and less useful. —ShounenSuki (talk | contribs | translations) 14:39, June 30, 2011 (UTC)

what about the other rasengan's like sageart nonstop gargantuan rasengan barrage--KikiWolfeLion (talk) 17:06, July 2, 2011 (UTC)

That's just how Mangastream's translator chose to translate Sage Art: Super Great Ball Rasen Tarengan. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:08, July 2, 2011 (UTC)
So is there still anyone opposed to this idea? —ShounenSuki (talk | contribs | translations) 16:10, July 3, 2011 (UTC)
I don't think so? Fmakck (Images | contribs) 15:29, July 4, 2011 (UTC)
Move all non-Rasengan and non-Rasenshuriken. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:01, July 4, 2011 (UTC)
I think I moved them all. Now only the question of the Rasen Shuriken remains… —ShounenSuki (talk | contribs | translations) 12:30, July 6, 2011 (UTC)
*Reads Spiraling Serial Spheres* Sad TheUltimate3 is sad. T_T. I was hoping we could keep the workable Rasen variants. Anyway, what exactly is the problem with Rasenshuriken?--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 22:28, July 6, 2011 (UTC)
It's gratuitous Japanese? I'll agree that Rasen Shuriken is borderline, although I'd say Raikiri is in a similar position. —ShounenSuki (talk | contribs | translations) 23:45, July 6, 2011 (UTC)
(at work. very quick response) /shrug, Rasenshuriken is fine. It wasn't changed in Japanese to English, its straight forward and so such. If one of the varients should stay it's Rasenshuriken. Lighting Cutter if I had to say fits with the Rasengan varients that did change. It was different enough to change.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 20:06, July 7, 2011 (UTC)
Someone tell me why Super have been changed to ultra and great have been changed to big throghout the entire wikia. Have we not always translated cho as super and odoma as great, like with the Super Multi-Size Technique??? On the main topic, I am in favor of somehow keeping the Rasen and Gan parts of the names like with Rasenrengan and so on. --Gojita (talk) 15:01, July 22, 2011 (UTC)Gojita
I changed 'super' to 'ultra' because it sounded better in that case, and I changed the 'great' to 'big' because:
  1. Jiraiya and Naruto aren't the type of people to use fancy words like 'great' over simple words like 'big', and
  2. it's clearly an indication of size here and not greatness, making translating it as 'great' simply incorrect.
That said, how would you keep the 'rasen' and 'gan' parts in the names without making it sound utterly horrendous? Rasen Absorption Gan? Ultra-Many Rasen Serial Gan? Or are you suggesting using the Japanese names again, despite the fact that they are meaningless to most readers and very easy to mix up? —ShounenSuki (talk | contribs | translations) 17:36, July 22, 2011 (UTC)

I think that the "Rasengan" names are getting ridiculous. What's with the "Sage Art: Many Ultra-Big Ball Spiraling Serial Spheres" and "Spiraling Strife Spheres"??? It doesn't even have "Rasengan" in it. I get that it's the english translation but in the manga and the english version of the show, they don't say "MANY ULTRA-BIG BALL SPIRALING SERIAL SPHERES!" And plus, if a new person joins they would probably search "Rasengan" instead of "Spiraling Sphere." —This unsigned comment was made by (talkcontribs) .

Their Japanese names don't have "Rasengan" in it as well. All of them are "Rasen[something]gan". Hence the translations you see. If someone searches for Rasengan, they'll get Rasengan, and the infobox will show derived techniques just as easily. We use the literal translation of techniques, and not the Viz translation, when available, in the infobox as well. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:11, August 6, 2011 (UTC)
I suppose that's why Rasengan isn't being renamed then is it and why redirects exist so even if it were changed and they searched for "rasengan" they'd be redirected to "spiralling sphere". I don't see how it's as confusing as looking at Rasenrengan and Rasenrangan or Rasentarengan or Rasenchōtarengan.--Cerez365 Hyūga Symbol 00:15, August 6, 2011 (UTC)

Possible Infobox Addition

I'm not trying to ignite the discussion about Rasengan names (yet anyway). But I noticed something while looking through the names of Rasengan Variants. The main policy is as follows:

Jutsus are listed using the literal translation of the Kanji for their name. Even if a jutsu has been used in the English series it's name is not used.

I think it's a very useful policy. The above discussion established a few additional rules for the Rasengan Variants (and by extension the Chidori Variants):

  • [Romaji phrase] Rasengan is translated into [English phrase] Rasengan
  • Rasen[something]Gan is translated into Spiralling [something] Sphere (in other words a complete literal translation)

But, I noticed several deviations from these general rules where several articles have slightly altered names. For example, the Crescent Moon Rasengan:

  1. Rōmaji = Mikazuki Rasengan
  2. Literal English = Three Days' Moon Spiralling Sphere
  3. Article Name = Crescent Moon Rasengan

Annother example, Formation Ino–Shika–Chō

  1. Rōmaji = Fōmēshon Ino–Shika–Chō
  2. Literal English = Formation Boar–Deer–Butterfly
  3. Article Name = Formation Ino–Shika–Chō

Other examples are:

  • Konoha Chakra Blade
  • Lightning Release: Black Panther

and probably a few more. Now these might be trivial cases and easily corrected. HOWEVER, there are quite a few articles out there that have no official name, like the "Generic Sealing Technique". I'm not sure where the rule is posted, but these names are put in italic. This leads me to propose a change to the InfoBox Template. Currently the template covers:

  1. Kanji
  2. Rōmaji
  3. Literal English
  4. Viz manga
  5. English TV
  6. Games
  7. Other

so why not add a box for Narutopedia exclusive names (like the Generic Sealing Technique) to make things a lot clearer in general:

  1. Kanji
  2. Rōmaji
  3. Literal English
  4. Narutopedia
  5. Viz manga
  6. English TV
  7. Games
  8. Other

So those are my thoughts. What are yours?--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 15:57, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

  • Techniques aren't listed all the time with their literal translations. Things like Ino-Shika-Cho aren't translated.
  • Black Panther and the majority of Kumogakure-based techniques are a different story you can check the respective articles for why.
  • Finally, I wouldn't support adding "Narutopedia exclusive names" since we're not supposed to be affected by outside influences and as such I don't see the need for it. Unnamed techniques are already in italics, I think that's enough. Besides where else would these techniques get their names?--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 16:09, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Three Days' Moon is the literal meaning of the term for Crescent Moon, that's why it's listed like that. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:37, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Wait, "Crescent" means "Three Days"? Dafaq?! (The more you know)--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 17:08, February 19, 2012 (UTC)
Only when it's together with the kanji for moon. Otherwise it means either three days or the third day of the month. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:44, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Interesting. 3 people replied and one commented on my proposal. Anyway, the reduced argument:

  1. For unnamed techniques, using a Narutopedia row in the infobox would make it a lot clearer that the technique has no official name. I don't think that italics are a very clear way to do that (I discovered its meaning by accident on a talkpage). And the absence of names in the infobox isn't all that clear either---for the simple reason that it appears to have a name.
  2. Using a Narutopedia name row in the infobox isn't that much different than "Viz Manga" or "English TV" or "Games".

To CEREZ: You wrote: "Finally, I wouldn't support adding "Narutopedia exclusive names" since we're not supposed to be affected by outside influences and as such I don't see the need for it." Huh? Where is the logic in that sentence? You wrote: "Unnamed techniques are already in italics, I think that's enough." I simply disagree. You wrote: "Besides where else would these techniques get their names?" Uhm! Narutopedia! --Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 20:27, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think an extra row like that is necessary. If getting that italics means unnamed/place-holder name is hard for other, I think that the answer is to update documentation of what each field lists. Making a FAQ page or something along those lines. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:40, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

If I understood what you were saying correctly, you want a feature to be added to the infobox to make it clear that the name was created on Narutopedia yes? I am saying that is unnecessary as the name wouldn't have come from anywhere else but Narutopedia if it was unnamed. There's already a little checkbox in the infobox that causes the name to appear in italics that should be enough. If people end up thinking they come from somewhere else that's their problem.--Cerez365Hyūga Symbol 00:03, February 21, 2012 (UTC)