Forum:Origin of the Chakra Receivers

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Okay, there seems to be some, or rather a lot, of discussion about the exact origin of the chakra receivers. Some say that it originates from the Ten-Tails. Some say they originate from Madara. Some say they originate from the Gedō Mazo, or just the outer path users themselves. While this is probably the most interesting topic of the wiki as of late, it's discussions have been spread too thin throughout the wiki. So let's come to a true consensus here.

Opinions

With all that's above stated, here is my opinion. The ability to create the Chakra Receivers come from the user of the Outer Path. Not Will Materialisation at all. My reasoning for that would be Nagato, who is also a Rinnegan user. It's no coincidence that all three users of the Dōjutsu, we've seen thus far, can create receivers at their discretion. With that said, the current definition of Will Materialisation, is correct. It is the actual act of infusing your will into a person or object, not the creation of the receivers. So how do i plan to dispute Madara's quote about a receiver being his will given physical form? Well, not only was their just one rod that he was addressing, but that line could at best be vague, given all we know about them now. Even Obito created a "rod" substitute with his Ten-Tails Chakra Weapons. Madara could have just meant that one specific rod, is the rod he chose to place his will in. Well, now that this is up in the air, what do you think? KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 18:43, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

It is Will Materialization. Plain and simple. No? Well, here's Madara's quote from the flashback chapter; "These black rods are my will made manifest. Use them when you use the Rikūdo no Jutsu." They are the user's will in a physical form. There's really not much else to it. Obito can create them, and apparently, so can Nagato. It doesn't have anything to do with the Rinnegan, or the Ten-Tails. The user can just solidify their will into a physical form. Before making opinions, it'd probably be best of you to go back and read the chapter in question. I do that so that I don't overlook things such as that; things can easily be forgotten if you don't read up on them occassionally. Suggesting that the Chakra Receivers are not Madara's will is ignorance of the canon. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 19:57, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

Edit: Mangapanda has a good version of the quote; "That black pole is my will made into a physical shape. Use it when you use the Rikūdo no Jutsu." And for those that need the chapter, just in case we want Seel to check the RAWs, it is Naruto chapter 606. Page number is 16 in the Mangapanda translation. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20:02, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

Here's my opinion on it. I think that the chakra receivers, ten tails chakra weapons, and will materialization are all one technique, used on different levels. Madara was as far as we know the original user (though the sage probably did use it) and he taught obito, and obito taught nagato. Madara was the more powerful user, as he naturally developed the rinnegan, has hashi's dna, and has powerful chakra. Then came obito, then nagato. This changed when Obito became the ten tails jinchuuriki. The level of shape transformation increased. I do however, think that this and the ability to negate all ninjutsu are two different techniques, based on the fact that he also applied it to his own body. He combined the two to make it appear to be some kind of dust release on steroids. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 20:13, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

In no way are the three techniques related. Also, let's keep in mind one thing...during the debut of the Gedo Mazo, one rod produted from it's stomach, which then extended and multiplied...so we know that the rods can extend and multiply from a single source...also Nagato never made use of the rods prior to that, and his Rinnegan had already developed for quite some time...and there is also Madara's quote to Obito, graciously provided by @TTF. That shows that the rods are an outside item. Another detail...if Obito could use said technique, why did he fell prey to Madara's control? How did Madara managed to remote control and fire three rods from Obito's body to block one of Sasuke's Susanoo arrows. Now we know that the rods act as both receivers and transmiters, allowing one to channel chakra (and even techniques) from one point to another...so Obito could have simply infused the rods with chakra, fired them to serve as marking points to produde the barrier. Why would Madara teach a technique that could allow his student to double cross him and use him as puppet? It made more sense if he'd simply placed the rods into Obito's body, when he was fixing it (Obito was unconscious, so i doubt he'd put much of a fight). Nagato gained use of the rods when he was stabbed by the Gedo Mazo. Thus, both could use the rods, generate more 'from the pre-existing ones in their bodies...but they could not control people with them. Another detail against @MangekyoSasuke's theory, is that Madara's ability was never decided as being Yin_Yang. Darksusanoo (talk) 20:40, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

Dark, its already a consensus that Obito can use them. You were probably not present during the second discussion, but look on the relevant talk pages. The new cleaned versions show Obito forming the rods out of his black orbs. He can create them. This is old news and not debatable. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 21:04, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

So, what i'mgetting from this so far is that Nagato, Obito, and Madara can all use the Will Materialisation Technique. And that it's not an Outer Path technique, b/c it's teachable (and Madara didnt have his own Rinnegan in his eye sockets). Therefore, it's just different levels. So we might have to add all 3 as users, and list their respective uses of the technique. So as far as we're concerned, everyone but Madara,only created chakra receivers. Madara himself, created life as well as the latter. I'm up for that idea. KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 21:47, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

Wait, wait, wait... slow down TTF. First about the said quote, did Madara say "this rod" or "these rods" ? Second, yes, it seems Obito can create rods, but I wouldn't say right away it's will materialization. Madara's case is vague, we in fact didn't see him make the rod, only it coming down from statue and hash and him commenting on will made physical. Still possible he simply touched an already existing rod with his will. Not saying you are wrong tho, but then why would the rods have been in Gedo Mazo and why would it pierce Nagato with them etc.?--Elveonora (talk) 23:30, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, how did you come to the conclusion that the Rinnegan is not apart of it? Every person who has shown the ability to create it had the Rinnegan. Hell, when Naruto felt Pain's chakra going into him, the image we saw was the Rinnegan. When Tobi binded the Tailed Beasts to the jinchuriki, they were under his control via the Outer Path and the Rinnegan.

I'm really just curious how the Rinnegan is not apart of this. And remember, Madara showed Tobi the Rinnegan in his genjutsu; the same place where he can do whatever he wants so saying he doesn't have the Rinnegan there is moot.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 01:22, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

First i believe it's due to the fact that it may be Yin-Yang based, though that's still in check...second, when Madara displayed and explained use of the rods, he'd already given his Rinnegan to Nagato. Darksusanoo (talk) 02:03, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

And as I've said, Madara showed the ability the rods while he was using the Limited Tsukuyomi. He wouldn't need the Rinnegan to show the technique in a dimension where he can do whatever he wants. (And don't read to much in me calling it Limited. I took the movie and ran with it.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 02:06, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

Elve, he said that the rods (plural sorry for not clarifying that. check the chapter for proof. I provided chapter and page above) were his will made physical in form. Not that he imbued it with his will, but that they were his will. Obito being able to create them, is then, him making his will manifested. The rods themselves are the user's will in physical form. That said, I also agree with Ultimate. Its more a Rinnegan skill than anything else. Its not a Ten-Tails skill, because Madara and Nagato wouldn't have been able to make them without it. I believe it is directly tied to the Outer Path, as Tobi was seen using the Outer Path chains and abilities with them through the entire fight with the jinchūriki, Naruto, B, Kakashi, and Gai. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 03:03, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

Thats what I was thinking. I don't know why nobody ever considered the Outer Path when we've seen them used in almost every Outer Path ability.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 03:17, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

Outer path, not rinnegan. Can be used with rinnegan or sharingan/wood release combo. Otherwise, right on the mark. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 03:19, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

Uh... Outer Path is a technique used by the Rinnegan. And no, it is definitely a Rinnegan-related technique. All three users are only seen creating them after they've awakened/implanted the Rinnegan. And Madara even said they were best used when using the Six Paths Technique ("Rikūdo no Jutsu"). Wood Release doesn't even play a role in this in the slightest. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 03:23, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

You're forgetting when Obito made them when he activated his Mangekyo Sharingan. You're also forgetting Madara said he could use the technique with just a sharingan and Hashirama's dna, and then using it without his rinnegan. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 04:38, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

Youre confused with Madara addressing the control over the Gedo Mazo Statue. KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 04:42, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

So basically we're saying that Will Materialisation is an Outer path Technique that Madara, Obito, and Nagato can use? If we do that, then we should definitely have a uses section to clarify who did what. KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 04:35, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

Wait, so people (ultimate3) suddenly agree with my old notion that the whole Madara dimension thingy was Limited Tsukuyomi related? Too late again... but now, I must disagree with myself, I no longer think that. Limited/Infinite Tsukuyomi creates "real" stuff, the genjutsu Madara used on Obito was nothing but ocular illusion, not unlike anything else and possibly some memory replay as well. Since Madara no longer had Rinnegan at the time, it doesn't play role in the rods' origins. Furthermore, there simply isn't enough evidence for either scenario... while them being related to Outer Path is very logical, that doesn't mean they don't come from Ten-Tails. After all, Madara nicknamed it "Demonic Statue of the Outer Path" and we saw LONG rod/s coming from its navel. For now, it's safest to keep them as the Ten-Tails' invention. @Foxie, I see some flip-flopping, originally, you were like: "omg guyz here evidence, rods came from black orb related to ten-tails!!!" and suddenly it's the Rinnegan? Sigh...--Elveonora (talk) 08:37, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

And you are forgetting that none of them, not a soul, had access to the Ten-Tails' chakra until it was revived. How it even became concluded that it is a Ten-Tails ability is beyond my thoughts, because as stated, we first saw them used as part of the Outer Path. We saw them again as used by the Outer Path. Every person who has used them (AND NOT IN A GENJUTSU, THIS PART IS IMPORTANT) had the Rinnegan.

Tobi making receivers with his Ten-Tails chakra doesn't all of a sudden turn it into a Ten-Tails technique, the man as also been shown making various other weapons.

And remember everyone, before the Ten-Tails was revived, the Demonic Statue was a mummified space corpse. The abilities of the Ten-Tails, from chakra, appearance and power, are different. Remember, Naruto and B could sense the Statue's chakra through normal means but when it became the Ten-Tails they could not.

And lastly, I already warned not to look to much into my use of Limited Tsukuyomi. I even mentioned I used that instead of "The genjutsu Madara dragged Tobi into just before he died" because I was not about to type that more than once.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 10:21, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

@Elve: Yes, I flip-flopped after I re-read the Madara flashback chapters. No way on God's green earth its Ten-Tails related. Nagato was stated to have created them, no Ten-Tails. Obito could create them (even creating other versions of them, like those big ass stakes he stabbed Gyūki with, or shot at Naruto) without the Ten-Tails. Madara even created them, no Ten-Tails. But what they all have in common is the Rinnegan, and all could use its Outer Path. Like we already said, Obito mainly used abilities of the Outer Path through the rods during the battle with the jinchūriki, Kakashi, and Gai. That, and Madara's little tid-bit that the rods worked better with the Rikūdo techniques. It has nothing to do with the Ten-Tails at all. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 17:13, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

Wow, the big ass stakes comment is valid, can't find a counter-argument. But as far as I'm aware, Nagato creating them is super vague and apparently it was mentioned somewhere but no one can find the source. But again, Madara didn't have Rinnegan, unless he made all the rods before giving his eyes to Nagato. Can you also explain why were they coming from the Ten-Tails' body? Look like how huge it is, you think Madara placed it there?... link here It definitely looks like it originates from it. Hell again, when Madara ordered Obito to use the specific rod with "six path technique" (whatever he meant, since Obito didn't have Rinnegan) on which he commented to be his will given form, it looked like it descended from the Ten-Tails' novel down the flower and right through Flower Hash Clone's navel. It didn't puke into existence in Madara's hands--Elveonora (talk) 17:28, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not here to speculate on that, Madara had the Rinnegan at some point prior to meeting Obito. He had every chance to create as many as he wanted. The fact is, only Obito has had access to the Ten-Tails (Gedo Mazō is its own entity. Had its own chakra and its own techniques). The other two only had access to Gedo Mazō, yet Nagato made his bladed disruption blades out of them, and Obito made the big stakes before the Ten-Tails even came into the equation. They manifested their own will into physical form, therefore giving birth to the receivers. Considering the Outer Path is used to control the Gedo Mazō, Naruto (when he and B fought Obito and the jinchūriki) said that the use of the chakra receivers to control corpses was a "Gedo no Jutsu" (Outer Path technique), and most of the other techniques, and heck, even when Madara tried forced Obito to force Obito to revive him with the rods, he was using an Outer Path technique, all evidence points to a Rinnegan-born technique, created from the Outer Path. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 18:12, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

While the idea that the receivers originate from the chakra of the Ten-Tails is highly possible, there just isnt sufficient evidence to clearly conclude that it does. The only thing you could do is try to piece together the correlation to what Obito did in the recent chapter to the naval rod protruding from the Gedo Mazo. The idea within such would be defined as speculation, at best. The idea that they originate form the Outer Path is the most logical. Like T.T.Fox stated before, he could have created them at any time. The evidence backing that up would be Nagato and Obito. I mean, all three were Rinnegan users. The only confusing fact i could see here is that people seem to think that Madara created the rod he displayed to Obito at that moment. Most likely he didnt. He had simply shown him the rod he created prior to their meeting. KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 18:37, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

Fox, your former stance on the subject was that it must be Ten-Tails related due to the flashing orb, suddenly it isn't, are you going to simply ignore that just because you have found a more for yourself satisfying explanation all of a sudden? There's as much evidence it's Ten-Tails related as that it's Outer Path related--Elveonora (talk) 18:46, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

There is none that it is Ten-Tails related. All you have as conclusive evidence of anything is an orb of black chakra, which I stated I changed my opinions on after re-reading some of the other chapters. Did Obito form receivers from them? Yes. Does that mean they're required? Hell no. Otherwise Madara, Nagato, and Obito prior to the Ten-Tails revival couldn't have made them at all. How do you explain the giant stakes? Did they come out of the Mazō's stomach? You can't prove that can you? What about the Disruption blade variant used by Pain Rikudō? Did they come out of the Mazō as well? Where's the proof? Or is it more likely that, being a user of the Rinnegan, both of them were able to create their own variants. After all, in the case of the stakes, the Mazō was right behind Obito, so why did he summon them from the Kamui dimension rather than from the stomach of the Mazō like you say he should? How about the fact that every time someone was stabbed by them, a visage of the Rinnegan appeared? Madara said they're his will in physical form. There is no Ten-Tails involved in making the user's will physical. Its more related to the Outer Path's abilities than anything, and there is not one panel of proof the Ten-Tails created it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 19:25, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

1) The flip-flop angle ain't gonna work. Ten Tailed Fox looked at the information and adjusted his conclusion. He's not fighting a battle with a losing argument just because he thought it was correct the first time.

2) There is no evidence that it is Ten-Tails related. You keep backing into that corner because of the statue when everyone else told you that what the Statue can do is not relevant to what the Ten-Tails can do. We have proof that nobody had access to Ten-Tails chakra until Tobi and Madara resurrected it. We have proof that all the Rinnegan users used the Outer Path with the chakra receivers.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 19:29, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

Well, aside from all this conversation, answer two things...first Nagato never used the rods prior to being used as a pin-cushion when he brought out the Gedo Mazo for the first time. And the rods appeared from Obito's body, much earlier than when he obtained the Rinnegan...more specifically when he first used his MS and WR powers...so i don't believe they are Rinnegan related, although they may have been developed to work in conjunction with the Six Paths Technique...but before you start saying they are Rinnegan/Outer Path related, answer the two questions. Darksusanoo (talk) 22:15, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

I don't even know what any of what you just said was supposed to mean. You basically said, "Well, forget everything that was just said. This is what I believe, so you guys should answer my questions." Look up. Most of the answers to your questions are above. Otherwise, your questions are irrelevant because they've already been discussed. Edit: Also, from the looks of it, you are the one who should be answering questions; not asking them. You bear the burden of proof. After all, Ultimate said it himself. There is no evidence that the Rods are Ten-Tails, and certainly not Wood Release related. There is evidence, however, that it is an Outer Path skill, and therefore, a Rinnegan one. So, I'll refer to you to my post, three posts up. Those are the questions that need answering to prove you or Elve's point. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 22:26, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

I think, for now, Cerez already took care of the business. Unless proven otherwise, those chakra rods used for the barrier were a variant of Ten-Tails Chakra Weapons (just like the staff) and not related to the original rods.--Elveonora (talk) 22:39, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

Cerez didn't do anything to solve this. He was just adding that to the gallery to prove that those rods came from the black orbs. We place every variant of weapon those orbs create there. He even mentions they're chakra receivers, so clearly he thought that's what they were too. So this discussion still needs to continue. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 22:40, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

@Darksusanoo: Those rods, as I noticed even then only came from his Zetsu side, the same side the wood came out and would over a dozen chapters later come out again when Madara was taking control. It stands to reason, he didn't create those rods but those were implanted in the Zetsu by Madara.

Nagato wasn't shown using any Rinnegan ability (save for the trait of learning all nature releases) until Hanzo made him flip. Should Shinra Tensei be a Ten-Tails ability too?--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 22:55, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

^ This times a thousand. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 22:58, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

Ok @Fox mind your tone, this is becoming a recurring trait with you in general...i asked a legitimate question...i didn't made any implications, i asked a series of questions'...i never implied the rods were WR related or Ten-Tails related, where the hell do you get this stuff?. We've seen Nagato use Shinra Tensei and we know it's a Rinnegan ability. However with the rods, we've only seen Obito and Nagato used them, after they were implanted in someway...Obito didn't even have a Rinnegan at the time...that's why i'm saying this isn't Rinnegan related, nor WR related, much less Ten-Tails related...fact his, the only concrete bit of evidence to their origin is that semi-vague statement by Madara.

EDIT: I was just reviewing the page chapter...now i did miss a few details from when Obito fires the little rod things...but now rewatching this (sorry @Fox my eyesight isn't what it used to be :P) this looks like another variant of the black orbs...we see the orb positioned behind the palm of it's hand, we see the spike protuding through his palm and then the little bits being fired off...all with the same firey aura...so to me they have nothing to do with the rods themselves...it's only another variant of the orbs. Darksusanoo (talk) 23:27, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

Which is not what we're talking about at all. Obito was already shown to create the rods. Those giant black stakes that he shot at Gyūki and Naruto his variants and he clearly created them himself, as neither Madara or Nagato had them, and that's something not even Elve contests. Secondly, this discussion is the "Origin of Chakra Receivers". I don't know when this turned into a debate on the Ten-Tails Chakra Weapons, but that's what keeps being mentioned, even after both Ultimate and I pointed out they aren't relevant. The Ten-Tails plays no part in this. You also completely blew off Ultimate's counter argument. You said that Nagato's first usage of the Rods is when he uses Gedo Mazō against Hanzo. What Ultimate is saying is that Nagato's first use of any Rinnegan ability was his fight against Hanzo, so, rightly so, by your logic, Shinra Tensei is now a Ten-Tails skill because he didn't use it until he went batshit crazy against Hanzo. Read what everyone is saying before yelling and getting mad at others. You jumped in mid-debate and completely derailed it with irrelevant arguments to what we were discussing. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 23:34, August 25, 2013 (UTC)