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Hey, this is Dubtiger. I would like to know whether we're going with the western format of names (ex. Naruto Uzumaki), or with the traditional text (ex. Uzumaki Naruto). For some reason, some people cannot understand why family names came first in the traditional translations (both original anime and Viz media translations go by last, then first names).
Why does family names come first in Japanese culture? It's a form of respect. It's like "this is my family, you can NOT insult it."
Why do we go by first then last names in the North American anime? I have no idea, actually...
-Dubtigetr 6:28, 5 February 2007 (EST)
Because that it oringiated in Japan I would like to keep the last name first. If you don't mind. The reason that it comes first in Asian cultures is because your family is higher then you. It drives me nuts sometimes in English versions when they change it. I call it 'diluting'. -LoneWolf 5
- The wiki is english which is something to consider. It might cause some readers to start to become confused on what a character's full name is if we use a format of name different than what they are used to reading. But we do have redirects remember. We could call it Naruto Uzumaki and have a redirect pointing to it from Uzumaki Naruto. I have a feeling the reason for the family name being last in English comes from the thought that the names differ more in the family so the individual name is used more than the Family so you aren't calling multiple people by the same name. Dantman (Talk) 03:58, 11 February 2007 (UTC
- Dantman, I get EXTREMELY ANNOYED (I mean super-duper, you can't believe it annoyed) when people use the first-last name format for Naruto characters. I saw some that are mixed between first-last, and traditional last-first, which is why I asked. Even if it's something like Nara Shikamaru, you still call him Shikamaru. It's all the "honor stuff." -Dubtiger, 6:29pm EST
- Naruto Uzumaki is proper english, うずまきナルト is japanese, Uzumaki Naruto is a literal translation of the japanese name without changing to English Conventions. They are all correct, and using the format Proper English (Japanese, Japanese Translation) or Naruto Uzumaki (うずまきナルト, Uzumaki Naruto) and then using the English form as the title, and creating a redirect from the japanese, japanese translations, and the nicknames to the article is a generaly accepted standard on wikipedia and most of the anime wiki on wikia. It seems that to fit in with the general standard this would be the best thing to adopt. Do remember that we are not a lone wiki, this wiki is becoming part of a larger group of wikia (The Wikia Anime Project) and because we are the English Narutopedia we will be linked to by the English Anime Wiki using English conventions. That means that the link as it will be used under the linking system which is being built for the anime wikia (Anime:Naruto:Naruto Uzumaki) will soon be directing to Naruto Uzumaki, so we're not selfishly considering only ourself, with a little more standards and quality Wikipedia will be putting us in their Extended Information section of the External links in their Naruto article. Dantman (Talk) 10:18, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- What if we take a poll of all of the users and see what tbey think?
- That might half to wait till I get forums setup. And you half to consider false votes, and the fact that us 3 are just about the only editors here. And The Gaiapedia was more active than here and at times I could only get something like 6 or 9 votes on a poll. Which dosen't say much good about the level of accurate readings here. You do half to admit though, using that standard makes this wiki the odd one out.
- Here we go, now I got the words right and found a better example. Choji Akimichi is a translated english name. 秋道チョウジ is his name in japanese. And Akimichi Chōji is the romanization of his japanese name. Because it's a romanization Akimichi Choji is incorrect because it removes the romanized signs in the name. Romanized names are not actualy english, romanization (taken from the latin alphabet) is basicly japanese written in a format which can be inputed easier into a computer. Because Akimichi Choji as english is false, and Akimichi Chōji as a romanization is japanese not english, which would lead to poor english writing by attempting to speak japanese and english at the same time the use of Akimichi Chōji and Akimichi Choji is not correct english.
- English is a Western Language, which is why the english translations of names use the western order (given name, family name). Adversly, Japanese is a Eastern Language and Romanization is Japanese, which is why romanization uses the Eastern Order (family name, given name).
- The reason you see the Eastern Order used in Fansubs and Fansites is because the job of a fangroup is not to translate but to make it so that the show/manga can be read by english speakers, Fansubs only translate half way, which is why you see japanese words such as Onee-chan, and Obasan used in subs. Fangroups also don't higher professional translators who translate things into proper english.
- The last thing to note, is that the Narutopedia is not a fansite, it is an Encyclopedia, moreover, an English Encyclopedia and encyclopedias use properly translated text, not semi-translated text.
- Concluding this, The diference in examples is that when you say Naruto Uzumaki you are using proper english. But saying Uzumaki Naruto you are actualy using a Japanese romanization. Unfortunately the reason it's hard to realize that you are not actualy speaking english is because unlike Akimichi Chōji, Uzumaki Naruto has no special signs which differ from the standard 26 English letters. Dantman (Talk) 01:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- Ack, I was going to go to bed 3 hours ago, but I spent to much time on this and little things I was going to to. 02:04, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
A number of our large articles (most likely the ones which have had content moved from wikipedia so that it can be fitted into the wiki) actualy do use the Western form of names. Because the most efficient way of starting off our content is to first copy over what wikipedia has under the GFDL and then modify and expand it, we already have a number of pages which use the Western format (Only the smaller pages use the incorrect Eastern format), because using a format of names which is used no-where else in the encyclopedic world makes us the odd-wiki-out and incompatable in some ways with other wiki, and because of the reasons stated why the other form of name is incorrect english the standard for names will be the Western format of names. But in a character's article the translation template should be used to explain the multiple forms of the name, and redirects should also be made for the Japanese name, Romanization, Alphanumeric Romanization (romanization removing the symbols), and Western List form (Last Name, First Name) which point to the Proper English form of the name. The discussion can continue, but there still hasn't been a accurate enough counter to the statements of proper english, and the way encyclopedias work. Dantman (Talk) 16:57, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
This is somewhat unfair in a way.....That eveythig that goes to America has to be americanized and that in way its somewhat unfair to use only english terms I truely bielieve that we should use the romanization of the Text is because The Manga and Anime of Naruto both orginated from Japan and not of USA,Canada or the U.K to somepoint and also if your thinking Encyclopedia type terms it should be the Orininal Name first then the tranlated name as secondary to the point ...AND Also NEVER IM MEAN NEVER USE THE ANIME TERMS to explain things that could possibl e as an non-canon fact it aways have to be from the MANGA FIRST , ANIME SECOND
DarkLordofChaos90 09:12, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
- The issue isn't where the stuff came from, but where it's being read. And the english terms aren't the only ones used, while an article may be at Naruto Uzumaki under the standards trying to go to the page Uzumaki Naruto will still lead to the same article. And all forms of the translation are explained in the article. The issue is combining english and japanese into one slur then saying that you're typing out an english article. It causes readers to get confused and then the have no clue about the truth. Remember, we're not creating a pile of extra naruto stuff for people who have read so much or watched so much of the series that they start sluring japanese into their own speach, we're writing a set of info for general readers who have only seen a little bit of naruto, or never even heared of naruto before. An wiki shouldn't strictly consider where stuff came from, but where it will be read. The objective is not targeted towards originals, original research, or editors it's meant for the readers. In this case, the North Americans who will read it.
- As a demonstration to show you how it will look i'm going to convert the Choji Akimichi article into the standard form so you can see what I'm talking about. Dantman (Talk) 11:10, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
- For the most part, it's done. Though do note that as for the large block of info on the top, I'm going to be creating a proper template for a character box sometime in the future so that will look better later, but that's a case of another set of standards. But here it is no form of naming is left out by this system, go to his nickname Choji, his english name Choji Akimichi, his japanese name 秋道チョウジ, try his romanized name Akimichi Chōji, try the romanized name when someone just types it out alphanumericly on their keyboard Akimichi Choji, even try the romanized form in which the symbols in the name where converted to alphanumeric characters, (ie the one that was first used before the article was fixed) Akimichi Chouji, heck, you can even try his name in the western listing format (ie, what you'd probably see in a phone book Akimichi, Choji). You'll see that all of the possible forms of his name direct to a article about him which also itself explains what names are english, japanese, and romanized. Dantman (Talk) 11:42, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I Know for the fact were it being read from and Im not a huge fan like someothers who just want this encyclopedia just to be a bunch crap on a slump like it was just couple of months ago you just have to think what time of age your in Half of the people of the margin that are 10 to 20 are now on whole wide web and I think for fact that the people read and Watch the series on Internet more than 10 years ago when the Internet was just starting to get reconized as huge tranfacto. my point is that the people who actually gona look here in this wiki are all the people who go elsewhere and also instead of waiting for the stuff that have to be long waited on the T.V they can just to turn on a Computer and just view all Naruto Manga,Anime and etc on the world web so justifing that most people will use the oringnal text and subs in Naruto then people who just got an Internet sight and just started reading the manga or watching t.v and are now new to the series.............................ooops forgot to log in.. 126.96.36.199 21:28, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
- That's just considering the people who actualy watch it, and have already seen enough of it that they know all the basic facts being written into the wiki. Why would you go to the long trouble of reading through an article you already know everything about, the people reading articles are ones who don't know half of what is going on. And just for statements fact, fansubs are technically illegal, but not everyone actualy watches them. There are still plenty of people who watch things just on T.V. and they're the ones who know the least about the show. And like stated, the fansubs don't use properly translated text, using fansubs as a primary source of information and using it above information gathered elsewhere leads to misinformation because not only do fansubs not translate things properly, but because they don't have professionals who's job it is to properly translate things, or connections to the actual people making the series they often get facts wrong and end up either placing a message in one of the future episodes that they've been using an incorrect term and are now using a different one, or they just use an incorrect term and it's not noticed until the official releases catch up. Dantman (Talk) 22:38, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Your somewhat wrong on Illegal part if not found or has been distributed as an sale of an product it proubly not ILLEGAL and also IT IS COPYRIGHT INFRINGMENT if it sold or etc.........One little question you do know the creator of this Manga do ya .........and another I hope that you are ready for alot suggestions and Criticism to the point. Another thing to point out That Many Dubs that tranlated here make alot mistakes also as much as an Tranlated Dubs not all professional Tranlaters get eveything right for example everything ......... 188.8.131.52 02:11, 20 February 2007 (UTC)\
Its natrually true to give in Criticism ..........Aaint this way off topic lol
- http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/feature/2003-06-08/3 but what does Masashi Kishimoto have to do with this discussion. Yes dubs do make mistakes to, but they don't make as many, they translate text fully into english instead of leaving every few words in japanese then explaining to the viewer what the word means, they are also consistant meaning they use the same term throughout the series instead of suddenly changing the word used in latter episodes, and also, they're Official. And our job is to document official facts and combine in the details on how groups do things differently. And no-one's tryed to counter the statements of using proper english instead of sluring japanese and english together yet, meaning that that side still holds the discussion. Dantman (Talk) 09:10, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
We can have vote (but that will be difficult because wiki is shared just like Wikipedia) for the names should be Normal and Proper English or the romanzation of the names. Also Wikipedia is using proper english but still includes the jap anese text in there articles which sum what a compromise........But we can decid e this later when there more active users in This wiki ...DarkLordofChaos90 04:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- Yes wikipedia adds japanese to the articles, but only using the Nihongo template which is not acualy combining english and japanese, but identifying to the reader what the japanese forms of the words are. The Nihongo template is equivilant to our Translation template which I have demonstrated being used. The standards I'm suggesting are the same as the ones which Wikipedia's users spent so much time on to finaly decide were the best standards for use. A vote dosen't work out to well, the real objective here is for one side of the arguement to convince the other side to go allong with their side. Once that's done we can begin editing. But we can't wait for more people to come along because we can't properly begin editing articles without a standard on how we write the names, even if it's a temporary standard such as just keeping a match with what wikipedia does we need a standard form or we're disorganized. Dantman (Talk) 11:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- I have to agree that it isn't fair that we should Americanize all of this but I'm a die-hard (?) Naruto fan and even I go to wikipedia when I'd like to know more about something. And I'll to whatever it takes to change the names so that they are in the Japense forms. -LoneWolf 5
By the way....I'd just like to say...WOW! There shore is a lot of work being done here.
- Even if it means comfusing new readers, becoming incompatable with both Wikipedia (meaning we'll also lose a lot of potential editors), becoming incompatable with the Wikia Anime Project (again losing a lot of editors, and possibly even the best admin you could find), and spitting on english. I wouldn't consider anything going on yet work, people are editing things one way, then others are editing it another. Until this discussion is concluded, I write some tutorials and sections on how to copy an article from Wikipedia and how articles should be formatted, and everyone starts writing by set standards. This wiki is still officialy in Chaos. Dantman (Talk) 00:12, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
- Just give me a moment to yell at America please...
- Well, if you havn't noticed America is FULL OF IDIOTS! We expect everyone to do it OUR way! AND HAVE YOU NOTICED THAT ALL WE'RE HEARING ABOUT ON THE NEWS LATLY IS ABOUT STUPID BALD BRITTNEY AND ANNA NICOLE SMITH!! I'VE HEARD ENOUGH! THIS IS ONE OF THOSE DAYS I'M ASHAMED TO BE AMERICAN!!!!!!!! God HELP America.
- Blech, I dun really like America either. (Probably cause I'm in Canada). But I'm just sticking with the english names because they're well, translated into the english language, and Romanized forms aren't. And we're writing and English Encyclopedia. Plus it's the same policy used on Wikipedia and everywhere else. This would be the first encyclopedia to use japanese inside of english text, which isn't very encyclopedic is it? P.S. You should use ~~~~ to sign your edits. Dantman (Talk) 01:24, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
- Well, I'm editing this so that doesn't make it every encyclopedic either. As long as we are completing our goal of being the best Nartuo info sight out there I think that we should go with last name first and first name last. LoneWolf 5 00:25, 1 March 2007 (UTC)LoneWolf 5
The names should one of two So someone make up there minds (I tried argueing with someone about names in anime it doesnt cut out but it will be cool if it was I Romanized name though) sometime or later when new users start coming here they would try to change eveything to there standards AND all they saw was the dub of naruto .....I already gave up trying to persuade somepeople...DarkLordofChaos90 01:51, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
- Just remember that the only place that only the english name will show up is when linking to a character in the context of a normal article. On character pages the nice translation template will still display the romanized form so romanization isn't gone. And with the redirects romanized names will still work when people use the search box or use romanization elsewhere. Non-Cannon, ie; fan type wiki do exist. But this is a Cannon encyclopedia, it's possible to propose a second Non-Cannon wiki in the future and romanization would be fine there. But english is still the best option here. Also, we don't half to use English names exclusively in a character list, since there's plenty of room we can use a table and list the character's english, japanese, and romanized names there to. But it's nice that this discussion looks like it's almost over. Dantman (Talk) 02:19, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
This has been going on forever.This is an english project ,so the pages should be ordered the english way. And most of the possible contributers would be more comfortable with Naruto Uzumaki then Uzumaki naruto. Besides it gets the wiki disordered and confusing since most of the pages are from wikipedia, and when the charecter pages use japanese conventions then the wikipedia pages(which use english conventions) don't link to them Random123 04:22, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
- Call me crazy but I would take the time to change all of the links to the Japanesse verison. In fact, I took the tijutsus from wikipedia but' I changed the links so the last name comes first. I REALLY want the last name to come first. However, it's not that you would losse ME over something like this. I'd just probably still do the links in the last-first format instead of first-last. And THAT would cause more work for you guys. 184.108.40.206 17:37, 1 March 2007 (UTC)LoneWolf 5
- There are also a lot of romanized names. But, changing names takes no effort. It's all a matter of doing it by bot. Though, I don't know of what format things would take, because I can only think of a way of using translation in an english format. english (japanese, romanized), but how could that possibly be reformatted to use romanized forms as the main one. It just does not work without sending the readers into a crazed fit of confusion. Actualy, when the bot system is setup, even if you use Uzumaki Naruto or Naruto Uzumaki the bot when run will change those links to Naruto Uzumaki whatever you decide to do. So even if someone breaks standards the bot will force their names to follow standards. I also intend to have functionality for moving user articles back to the proper locations if people move them, creating redirects if they aren't there. And I also intend to have it make sure the first occurence of a name in an article is always a link. So if you just type out Naruto Uzumaki, then the first one will be automaticly changed into Naruto Uzumaki. I'm considering a pretty addept bot which will actualy make the first occurence of a name a full name, and the rest of them the short name. Dantman (Talk) 22:09, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
- Here we go. I finaly found the decisive reasoning on why wikipedia uses Western order sepcificly in Naruto articles. I'm pretty sure it will counter most statements here and resolve this dispute. Wikipedia:User:NeoChaosX/Naruto_names#Name_order. Dantman (Talk) 18:00, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
- sigh* I lost....I was being a selfish jerk again and not thinking of our dear readers. *goes off to be emo in a corner* LoneWolf 5 21:01, 4 March 2007 (UTC)LoneWolf 5
Finally, a decision. 1 realized the reasoning for the western side after an outside argument, 1 went for the western side, 1 agreed after going over wikipedia's reasoning, and the last appears to have disappeared. That makes community consensus. I can now make a proper policy on the naming of naruto characters. As for other western vs. eastern disputes, we can use this as a refrence to shorten the length of those discussions. And even refer to Wikipedia's reasoning. Which also means we can start removing the chaos with the first task. Copying articles from wikipedia, which I've made a nice guide here→How to copy from Wikipedia. And as requested, I've started the rules page and the index. Dantman (Talk) 21:38, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Oh, just to note. When talking about things about naruto outsite of this wiki, or in articles which may relate to other anime. You should use full names. While Naruto is a fairly unique name. I've already found 2 other anime which use the name Sauske. One of them is pretty small (wikipedia dosen't even have an article on it(My Wife is a High School Girl), but the Animepedia does now ^_^), and the other one is a very classic one. While Naruto is the current fad Ranma 1/2 predates it by far. ~Dantman(talk) 11:02, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- Ramen 1/2 has a Sauske? I never knew that. Anyways, for some odd reason I want to just say whille we're on names that there is a real Sauske out there in history. I can't look it up right now.
- In Ranma ½ Sauske is the name of the ninja who works for the Kuno family. Contradictory to Naruto, the ninja Sauske in Ranma ½ is an absolute blithering idiot of a clutz. You mean Wikipedia:Sarutobi Sasuke, hmm... that article has naruto related context. Maybe we should copy that context into an article of our own. Also in My Wife is a High School Girl (おくさまは女子高生, Okusama wa Joshikousei) Sauske is the little kid who moved in next door to Asami and Kyosuke. ~Dantman(talk) 18:35, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- That brings up a good topic. Since this one is about names, I'll create a ne forum for it. And yep thats what I'm talking about. Sarutobi Sasuke... I belive that that's also where the author got the 3rd Hokage's and Asuma's last name from. LoneWolf 5 23:46, 13 March 2007 (UTC)LoneWolf 5