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Right, this is something I've been having a problem with here for quite some time.
I understand that as a Wiki our job is to give accurate information about the series to the best of our ability. But I think that part of this should include presenting the logical conclusion to presented information.
For example, We've credited Orochimaru with the creation of the Curse Mark, but when it came to who made the Four Black Fog Battle formation, we didn't list him as the creator despite it likely being the case because there's the smallest chance Kabuto played a part in its creation.
Now I'm not suggesting we present theories in the articles or anything and I don't believe we should let things presented in unconnected media effect one another, so nothing from anime effecting manga data etc. So no change there.
But I find we're overly willing to avoid presenting the obvious with nothing to the contrary simply because it hasn't be explicitly confirmed.
Now I understand that what might be the obvious conclusion might not be the right one, but by the very nature of the manga and the ability to edit our information, we can always fix this later as we have done until now. I don't need to bring up Itachi's Villain status, Tobi's true identity or the other revelations that have changed what we thought to be true, even more minor things, like until recently I believe it was commonly accepted that Hashirama died before Tsunade was born.
I know I might not have presented this in the most comprehensive manner ever, but basically, I would like to open it up to discuss a change in policy to include a certain greater degree of Ockham's Razor here, especially in cases where we're unlikely to receive more information. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 02:21, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
- I have no idea the issue wit the Four Black Fog Battle Formation, but I myself have been having some serious issues with the lack of logical conclusions. Using a history lesson, before we knew the Fourth was Naruto's father, everyone speculated that yeah he was. We had absolutely no evidence to prove this, just that the two happened to look alike and acted alike. But we had to battle tooth and nail to keep people from adding to articles "He is most likely Naruto's father".
- What came from this was the absolute refusal do anything unless it was spelled out in black and white. This kept everything we would have in articles as what we knew for sure. Ok that was fine, until I started to notice things that just didn't make sense. For example, we would sit and argue back and forth that Ink Creation wasn't a tailed beast skill. Why? Because it was never said it was a Tailed Beast Skill, but that would require us to ignore that the Eight-Tails is an octopus, octopuses create ink, safe from wrestling moves/lightning techniques all of B's abilities have been tailed beast related.
- This became a wall of me ranting, but basically we've reached the apex of an issue that has begun years ago, we are literally trying very hard to not think and come up with logical conclusions about things and instead want Kishimoto to spoon feed us things that we don't really need him to.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 02:35, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
- I agree. The recent Scorch Release argument is one of those, in that it was blatantly obvious that Kishi was giving us a bone with the whole fire and wind thing, and there are walls of arguments because it wasn't specifically stated. Obito's reveal also stands out in my mind. I think, personally, that the rules should be tweaked; if there is a general consensus, more than X-number of people, who generally agree that a conclusion is common sense (logical conclusion), then it should be added at least as a trivia note, but depending on the situation, even to the article itself. There is nothing wrong with using your brain. That's half the fun of reading a story — putting things together logically. It should also be noted to the more hesitant users of the wiki (because I have a feeling I know who they will be), that Kishi (as was prior pointed out) will not "spoon feed" us everything. Somethings he's going to leave us to figure out on our own. We might as well do so, within reason. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 03:01, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
I have to disagree with this somewhat. Not because I disagree with the use of logical conclusions which we use plenty of here but our main focus as a wikia is to document the information presented to us by Kishimoto. I'm not saying we're to be spoon fed but that's like someone taking the sacred teachings of a religion for example and ad libbing what they feel a mind to then dispensing it to the masses as the logical conclusions of said deity. My major problem with what this is proposing is the fall out from it. Everyone and their mothers will believe their logical conclusions to be true because let's face it: that's just how people are. That only opens our articles up for people to add speculation and claim that "logic dictates that this is what would happen". With regards to what Hawkeye said, your examples do not make for the best ones simply because of one story making device called: plot development. What were we to do in those instances?
- The guy saying he's Madara may be Obito Uchiha because of his hairstyle and the height and weight match and because other learned scholars in forums say so? Despite the fact that he was crushed under a rock?
- Itachi killed his entire clan and from all intents looks like he's rearing Sasuke like a guinea pig to take his eyes but hey, logic dictates that he may not be so bad possibly?
Info was literally created to misdirect readers to create a story.
- Now Naruto is a good example; I would never at any point before its revelation agree to add a note saying "oh he might be Minato's son because they look alike and Naruto likes to stare at his face on the monument". Things like that are unnecessary and don't hinder the addition of info to the wikia in any way.
- That B thing is dumb since persons should've had enough sense to know that was a tailed beady skill right off the bat especially since Kisame said do.
- Scorch Release is another thing altogether, if that article had remained the way some people thought was a logical conclusion then any two persons or single person could use a kekkei genkai "without the kekkei genkai". The information was added to Scorch Release article and the doubt was also mentioned/referenced and so forth which I think it the best way to handle things like that.
Take a more recent example:
- in Sasori's article it was mentioned that although he saw the attack he chose to die rather than kill Chiyo. What? Now that, is utterly unnecessary speculation on our part born out of the fact that someone believed it to be a logical conclusion when I could argue that Sasori held little to no regard for his grandmother even when he was about to die. I understand that hey we're also fans of Naruto and we might have theories in our head that are all too clearly obvious but we didn't become an excellent wikia by interjecting logical conclusions everywhere. Things like mentioning that Katsuyu for example is possibly the only slug summon is the kind of conclusions I don't mind but otherwise, we stick to facts for one simple reason: there's no way to argue against them.--Cerez365™(talk) 03:28, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
Cerez, I get where you're coming from, and honestly, I'm not looking for any extreme here,but my point is, primarily I think, that this is about evolution of information. Until a certain point, all we could say was that Tobi is Tobi and Obito was dead, despite loads of people having theories. Now, now we know for sure and have added it. What I'm looking at is just more an application of this logical thinking to handle information that is likely to be true through provided evidence as opposed to what is a possible but contradictory theory.
Tobi is Obito
Before Confirmation - Obito is dead, his body was crushed, Kakashi and Rin saw it happen, he's listed as dead, for all intents and purposes the man is dead go away.
After Confirmation - Okay, Obito is Tobi because Madara saved his life. Carry on.
What I would be looking for would be something like Scorch Release.
Scorch Release is made of Fire and Wind natures
Before Confirmation - Enton and Futon combined to create a technique described as Shakuton, so until further notice, this is what we're going with.
Confirmed not to be the case - Sakuton is made of X + Y, but a technique described as Shakuton was created using Enton and Futon.
And in cases where we don't have enough evidence, we'd have something like this
4th Hokage is Naruto's father
Before Confirmation - You cannot say that they are related based solely on physical similarity, every blonde spiky haired person is not related.
After Confirmation - Turns out these two are, also Naruto and certain freakish redheads, but again, not all of them.
I would be looking at things more of this nature as opposed to our current format which seems to avoid like the plague everything that isn't explicitly stated.
But like I said, I'm not saying let people loose with the wild theories, especially when evidence is scarce, but as it stands, with the scorch release example above, there's nothing to the contrary, it's literally the best shot we have and with implementing some new form of policy we could control this change to allow for more comprehensive, and helpful wiki. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 03:54, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
But i cant see how what you're proposing helpful to the wikia though? We're supposed to present information as logical conclusions like Scorch Release to readers who will go off not thinking that its an assumption but that it is fact? Then when that changes and turns out not to be true we recant it and say whoops? And if its correct we get to tell people in their faces o.O? Things like that would threaten the entire credibility of the information of the wikia and if people can't trust the info they're reading here, then I don't know what we're all doing because this certainly isn't one of those sociable wikia. Using Scorch Release an example, the technique is identified as such in name but not as a nature transformation. The speculated component elements are mentioned along with a note that Minato called the technique Scorch Release based off the use of fire and wind. Those in my head are logical assumptions although it was never said in the manga. What more could you want from that situation?--Cerez365™(talk) 04:14, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
But by that same logic, if someone read this wiki a year ago they'd think Tobi was Madara and Obito was still dead. This is what I mean by the evolution of information, we can only give what we know to a given point in time. If someone comes here once, reads something that becomes out of date or obsolete and then leaves, that should not be counted as a failure on our part. But if Scorch Release is in fact intended to be Fire and Wind natures, implied when Sasuke and Naruto created one by combining their own techniques perfectly, but we don't list that, then that is our failure. If it later turns out to be incorrect, it can be corrected as we have done a million times over, but it's these basic, reduced to their simplest idea points of logic that we're missing because no one has said it explicitly. I mean let's look at that barrier the hokage erected, does anyone have any doubts that that the Sound Four's technique is derived from this? It's mentioned to be stronger, but it's exact relation is never stated and yet I can't think of a single person who would doubt that like the Triple Rashomon it's an ability Orochimaru copied in a diluted form. It's these simple things that can be inferred and by all rights are likely correct given what evidence we have. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 05:08, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
- @Cerez: No, what he is suggesting is that it is both reprehensible and increasingly dumb that when we can make a logical conclusion regarding information that is provided to us within the series, then we should go ahead and make a call on it, even if its a Trivia point only.
- Back during the Obito—Tobi debacle, when Obito was first revealed to be the Masked Man, there were those on this wiki who wanted to wait for even more confirmation. More confirmation than the chapter being called "Obito Uchiha". More confirmation, despite the fact that all but two pages were flashbacks of Obito Uchiha. More confirmation, despite the fact that the face at the end of the chapter was Obito Uchiha. Granted, much of this was due to outrage by some members that it was Obito, instead of "their guy". Regardless, it took, according to my memory of the incident, several days to convince our own members what had already been confirmed by Kishimoto himself, when the logical conclusion, based on the manga itself, was that he was Obito Uchiha.
- That should not happen. Ever. You see, Cerez, there very well may be information on this site that we present as fact, based on our knowledge of what is presented in the series, that later comes up false. That's not our fault. That is just the drawback to running this site while the series is ongoing. Facts get retconned, better explained, or flat out forgotten by the author, and things changed. Regardless, it is our job to not only report what is explicitly stated in the series, but to also draw logical conclusions, within reason, based on common sense (such as the Scorch Release incident). For example, the databooks may very well reveal that Scorch Release: Halo Hurricane Jet Black Arrow Style Zero is an actual Scorch Release technique, and no logic you use based on what you know would change Kishimoto's decision. That's just a fact.
- It really does get tiresome arguing with people who are afraid to just use their head and draw a reasonable conclusion based on the facts. If, at a later date, those facts change, we can change it then and there to reflect the facts. The Obito situation I mentioned, being prime suspect. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 05:15, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
Logical conclusions are needed, otherwise lots of information would get lost/unlisted. As long as a blatantly non-stated information in articles is still based on manga/databook hints etc. it's safe. The Minato one isn't a good example, if we went with that then we would have to list Gaara as an Uzumaki by now. But even the canon "facts" themselves aren't very reliable as you might have noticed. For example the whole Hashirama's death/history stuff seemingly got changed. Also the reason for why I believed Tobi to be Izuna is because their: weight, height, blood type, birthday, hair color match... on top of that, a person more related to Madara would be his brother and Obito got crushed by boulders and we saw that. Everyone with half a brain must have come to the conclusion that Tobi is Izuna, right? ;D Oh, wait... sometimes even "obvious" and "logical" things aren't true T_T so we should find a middle-way. --Elveonora (talk) 11:22, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
Elve, once again I can't tell if you're with or against us. :D Still, right now I'm talking about a change in policy to reflect something a bit friendlier to logical conclusions. Of course this needs to put in some guidelines like we did with the creation of relevant articles guidelines. In this case, things that are intentionally ambiguous, like Tobi's identity, Naruto's heritage etc. would be left alone without a clear answer because there were several popular theories, but more importantly there were contradicting theories and evidence. to make some more examples
Obito is Tobi
Evidence for - He's a seemingly one eyed psycho with the Sharingan.
Evidence against - He's listed as dead, we saw him seemingly die.
Izuna is Tobi
Evidence for - Same Height, Weight, hair colour etc.
Evidence against - He was said to be completely blind and to have died and would have no logical reason to have lived as long as he has.
With evidence in contrary or many popular theories, it would be a point where I wouldn't want things to be changed. But to go back to Scorch Release
Scorch Release is made of Fire and Wind
Evidence for - A technique combining fire and wind was called scorch release, The only known Kekkei Tota is Dust Release so the possibility of a secondary element in Blaze Release being counted towards this is slim.
Evidence against - It was an off the top of Minato's head name. There was no reference to Pakura or general scorch release to imply a connection.
I added what I could for evidence against, but it still looks pretty flimsy as neither point directly opposes the idea. Here we have something where the evidence against doesn't necessarily contradict the idea and until more information is gathered this is seemingly the answer. We're just not stating it.
Now Cerez brought up what if with our assumption we're wrong, and that does happen, but so long as we state what evidence we have, that what we have is the best singular conclusion with the evidence we have, either we're proven wrong and we edit, we're proven right and we're ahead of the curve or it's not proven at all and what we're left with is the best possible solution for the evidence. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 12:48, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
- By the Light the day has actually come where I agree with Ten Tailed Fox. Yes, a thousand times yes, that is exactly how I feel. And I was one of the people who was with the "Until it's actually stated it doesn't get added" camp for years. Over time, I have seen things like the Tobi/Obito thing, the most recent Scorch Release thing which has caused me to rethink my own actions.
- Like Hawk said, we shouldn't let things go hog wild. There has to be a logical reason in series for a logical conclusion to be met. Naruto being the Fourth Hokage's father because they look alike? That's just how you feel. Scorch Release = Fire and Wind? Two Natures = New One, Two techniques that made a makeshift Scorch Release was comprised of Fire and Wind. Logic = Scorch Release = Fire and Wind.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 12:51, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
- For me, it all comes down to credibility. Again taking the technique used by Naruto and Sasuke: are we are to abandon all that we know previously about kekkei genkai and so forth for information we received from someone who was observing what was happening on the battlefield? If that logical conclusion sets a precedence for us to list that technique as the actual kekkei genkai Scorch Release, then again I will ask, what is stopping us from listing Naruto and Gamakichi's Wind Release: Toad Gun which employs the same characteristics of the "Scorch Release" technique as an Ice Release? Logical conclusions are already used on the wikia but what this is calling for is something entirely different. It calling for us to have more of an influence on the addition of information than is necessary. With regards to the Hashirama information, I don't know why people gripe about that, sure it's a task to change the info we have, but that it outside the span of our control. The other night I was reviewing a discussion about Hashirama using Sage Mode taught to him by slugs. An editor there noted that it was likely but not confirmed: I ask you guys, is that not a logical conclusion? Should we not have added a trivia point that it's possibly taught by the slugs and then hope we're right? And if we're wrong oh well, never mind the fact that we lose credibility or anything like that, all we need to know is that we were able to logically conclude it. There is nothing wrong with a bit of logical conclusions, it's just that I fear what you guys might be inferring by this will cost the wikia more than it will benefit us.--Cerez365™(talk) 14:23, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
I always prefer to wait for raws total information to get out, and let logic information wait, because if one or two starts publishing logic things, everyone will try to do the same, thats the only problem i have with this subject.
But there is really a need to stop waiting for information that probably will not come out and that is so obvious. We should discuss things first as always, and if the majoraty agrees following the logical. We should post it. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 13:03, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
I'm not saying don't wait for raws, I mean we know we'll get those and it's better to get a first hand translation from one of our editors than rely on the second or third hand by the scan groups, but that's what we're gonna have on hand and we know we'll have on hand. But we could wait through the end of the series and still not get definitive explanations on Explosion Release or Scorch Release and several other things. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 13:11, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
Now we are at this, 3th and 4th Kazekage were NEVER stated to have used Magnet Release. It wasn't spelled out to our face, just magnetic chakra if I remember well, is that enough evidence at all? An example of a possibly false information --Elveonora (talk) 13:21, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
I agree with logical definitions, at least if they are accepted by all, or the majoraty at least, yes there are things that we really need to step up and stop waiting for information that is already in front of us. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 13:30, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think any of you guys fully understand what you are asking for here. Sandaime Kazeekage was never stated to use Magnet Release and it wasn't until the Yondaime used it that the information was confirmed and combined. What's so wrong in wanting to wait years for confirmation on information like that? Everyone here thought it was Magnet Release, I myself asked Shounensuki and was told that, it could be 100% true but unconfirmed so we mention the information given to us but let it alone otherwise. What is the sense in adding he obviously uses magnet release but we can't say so in the article so: triviaaaaa. Ino for another example was sensing since she did her first chūnin exams and even when every other member of her family came out as sensors we still didn't add her as such until we had concrete evidence that could be referenced to. You guys need to remember that this isn't a place where we come and can show people in your faces, we're more learned in Naruto than you are, we're a encyclopaedia, and we're supposed to do what encyclopaedias do: record information as it is given with evidence to back it up. Wikipedia articles are already uncredited sources of information, this will only serve as a way to add uncorroborated speculation editors might have as possible facts. Still we're apparently a democracy all of a sudden so if the majority of the wikia decides to go the route of "logical conclusions" I won't fight it, people tend to learn better after they experience things. So, learn away.--Cerez365™(talk) 15:33, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
- I only support logical information that is most probably to be certain, otherwise i prefer not to. Like i already said, i prefer to have real solid evidence before adding something. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 15:49, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
- If there is a real solid evidence, it won't be a logical conclusion. The thing is everyone has his own unique logic and considers oneself correct. This would only lead to revert wars if not addition of tons of speculations to the article.--~Ulti Sup~ 16:13, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
- And that's what I am worried about. We do use logical conclusions here, but but the extent that is being proposed is adding what we feel to be a likely outcome. It is always better to err on the side of caution.--Cerez365™(talk) 17:33, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
- Which is why I was more concerned with things that make sense based on what we already do know. I don't even know why the Third and Fourth Kazekage are listed under Magnet Release but I would have been dandy with that lovely (Presumed) tag we seemed to have phased out. As I've said, my issue is with us trying hard to ignore things we already know unless it is spelled out to us before hand. Add to that we move as if we can never edit anything once its up ever and it looks like we are just afraid to do practically anything.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 22:36, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
- And that's what I am worried about. We do use logical conclusions here, but but the extent that is being proposed is adding what we feel to be a likely outcome. It is always better to err on the side of caution.--Cerez365™(talk) 17:33, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
Well, given Cerez' responses on the Hell Stab talk page, I think we can call that a concensus for giving this a go. So I guess now I find an admin and see about setting up some new guidelines if at all possible. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 04:32, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think anyone is saying "yes" to this. Rather, I can see Cerez being sarcastic about saying "yes", while really meaning "no". I don't know why a policy was made on a whimsical decision when it's not decided. --Speysider Talk Page | My Image Uploads | Tabber Code | Channel 13:32, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
I'm rather late to this party, and forgive me if I'm repeating someone (did not read everything), but I think that there are logical conclusions, and there are logical conclusions. The kind of conclusion I have the most issue with are ages. I believe that if loads of comparisons are necessary to determine an age or a duration, or anything timeline related, we should stay clear or it, specially if someone else, doing the same, reaches a different result. The biggest example of this I can think of is Obito's age, and all the things that go along with it, such as Kakashi's jōnin promotion age. This issue in particular is very convoluted. Those things with age and time should only be used if they're very clear, like the determination of B and Motoi's age. Other kinds of conclusions, I believe that each case is a case, and pretty much all of them can be somewhat made to work by using careful wording and placing of the information. For example, Four Black Fog Battle Formation. There was the argument to list Orochimaru as the user. Orochimaru wasn't list as user when the databook came out. It makes logical sense for Orochimaru to be a user, the designed of the jutsu, based on the fact that the technique is used to advance his cursed seals. Instead of going back and forth in adding and removing them, just point it out in the trivia section. Info gets listed without the need of making the leap of actually saying Orochimaru did it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:56, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
- And the one page will be this one, not the talk page of a policy that shouldn't even have been made.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 16:30, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
When something isn't clear like Orochimaru using Substitute Technique, A using Hell Stab and similar cases where isn't a consensus, mentioning it in the trivia section is the way to go. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 20:44, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
Agree: (Add info to pages, since it makes sense logically)
Disagree: (Add in trivia section only though things make sense, but because it hasn't been directly mentioned)
Depends on the article: (Discuss in related talk page before adding info)