Forum:Fact policy

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Hi guys.
Most of you probably noticed the discussion regarding the Blaze Release and how we handle it. I started it, even though I was aware that it has been discussed over and over again. Since I'm not a random Naruto fan, I allowed myself to bring it up again, anyway. The reason for that is not that I want to force my view of things into the articles, but that I think there's a bigger problem this wiki has: The way of handling and presenting information that isn't confirmed.
Whenever something remains unclear, there should be one way we handle it: We state that it's not been explained yet and don't make any conclusions based on opinions. That's all there is to it. However, what we really do is randomly deciding how we handle each case.
We have the Blaze Release case, where we state as a fact that it's an advanced nature, even though that was never, ever stated in the manga and there are more facts that speak against it. But we also have the Ranshinshō case, where we don't say that it's a raitonjutsu, we only have a trivia for it and a (presumed) in Tsunade's infobox. We don't even mention it in Tsunade's ability section.
As you can see, we don't have a fixed policy or why're we handling each case differently? Seelentau 愛^議 13:37, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

This is probably going to end up well.

The problem,as I see it, insistence of accepting that we don't know something and refuse to try and make sense of it. We cannot except Kishimoto to hand everything on a silver platter. The man can barely keep his own story straight and seems to do a lot of things just to make them interesting.

Because we take such a broad stance on things we don't know, we unnecessarily pussyfoot around things and then just leave it and settle into a "hope for the best" resolution.

Using the Body Pathway Derangement, as that was a resolved case from years back, because the technique used electrical pathways many assumed it was a Lightning Release. This topic met, what I believe was a universal end of debate scenerio back in 2008 when Dantman said that because it didn't fit with any other lightning technique, that the use of the electrical pathways was used out of context (and it probably was, as the electrical pathways in the body are to my understanding nothing like actual lightning) and every conversation about it since then have kinda kept to that line of reasoning. Overall, it is both a good and a bad example to use in this discussion, mainly by the way we the editors at the time just kinda dropped it as a subject. It is good to bring it back though.--TheUltimate3

^(talk) 13:57, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

Then why are we handling this new subject so differently? I understand that there's been way too much discussion about it, but they all ended without coming to a conclusion. What we have at the moment simply isn't a fitting way for a wiki to handle things. We need a rule, which should obviously cover every potential issue that may arise in the future. I would define this rule as:

Every information that has not been provided by the manga or any other official source has to be considered as speculation and as such should not be stated as a fact in an article. If necessary, a trivia explanation can be made.

Wouldn't that be okay? Seelentau 愛^議 14:16, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

Because to put it very simply, we handled Body Pathway Derangement very poorly. Back then, because Dantman said "no" we accepted that as law and didn't challenge it and never did. We didn't make a rule or even an exception, we just didn't even try. If he had this same discussion like we are now, things probably would have ended up differently.

And only it is acceptable only when it is so far out of left field that it requires stretching to reach. Something like Blaze Release (to use the most recent issue) can be explained using every piece of information we have to reach the conclusion that is is a nature transformation. The ones that can't be reached through the information we do have is what makes it, but that doesn't discount what we can conclude. We aren't arguing that Explosion Release isn't an advanced nature, even though we don't know what makes its parts. We know it is because it isn't any of the main five.--TheUltimate3

^(talk) 14:36, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

But what if, as it is in the most recent case, we can't explain everything? The way we explain it is now, it's half-assed. You said it yourself: We don't have proof that it's a nature and we don't have proof that it's not a nature. But instead of saying that we don't know, we pretend that we know that it's a nature.

What we do is not stating facts (= that it's not been explained), but stating our own opinions as facts. And that is something a wiki must not do. Otherwise, this would be absolutely legitimate: I worked on a theory regarding Inton, Sasuke's Genjutsu-eye and the form manipulation of Enton and it's based on manga facts. It's flawless and since we state opinions as facts, I am allowed to add it to the Enton article (and others).

But I doubt that you want such situatons to arise. And no, this is not a threat, I obviously won't do that. Seelentau 愛^議 14:55, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

....What theory regarding Yin Release and what about Genjutsu eye?

And if it actually leads to somewhere actual thought is used instead of "thumb-up-ass-let's-do-nothing" we've been doing so far, I'm all for it. I'm saying when we have legit information that can end to a solution (example: Technique is called "X Release", user used a move called "X Release: Y", X is not part of the five standard natures but must be made of at least 1 of them) then we can and should be able to use the giant organ in our heads and come up with the logically conclusion that (example: Because X Release fits every definition that current exists for Z, X = Z. For added fun, this entire line of reasoning, I used Explosion Release as the base. User had Explosion Release, used Explosion Release: Landmine Fist, is not a Fire, Water, Earth, Wind, and Lightning nature, components are unknown.)

The thing I stress, and stress hard is that I hope we are smart enough to take things and use them logically. If someone has to go through a great many jumps of mental gymnastics to reach a conclusion then that is probably bit to far. But when is able to basic things that has been established, look at the scenario at hand, we should be able to come up with a logical conclusion that we can present. And if, and this is a big if, Kishimoto finally decides to release a databook to explain this stuff then we can change it. But dancing around stuff like we are doing now makes us come across as being willfully stupid.--TheUltimate3

^(talk) 15:12, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

The problem is here: "Technique is called "X Release", user used a move called "X Release: Y", X is not part of the five standard natures but must be made of at least 1 of them" - the bolded fact is the part that upsets me to no end. Just because of the word "Release" you assume that it's nature? Again, we have Tonton (no, not the pig, the Transparent Escape), but that isn't a release despite using the same Kanji, is it? Furthermore, you ignore everything that doesn't add up with what we know. Seelentau 愛^議 15:19, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

Ah, and now I see the break. (If it hasn't been made obvious by now, if you use the romaji exclusively, at least if you are talking to me, expect there to be a disconnect. As you may have noticed, I kept using Blaze Release instead of Enton. Much much easier for me to follow.) In that case, my point still stands in that if it is an "Element Release" it goes nature. It also brings up the point that why is Transparent Escape Technique has "遁" in it and it doesn't become Release (the only thing that pops in my head is that "透遁" directly becomes "Transparent Escape" but obviously, I don't know Japanese). And I'm not ignoring anything (or at least I shouldn't be, as i tried to take into account everything) that doesn't add up to what we know, I'm simply not ignoring what we do know, have used, and what could be the result.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 15:29, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

So in your opinion we should create another adv. nature called Transparent Release?

What you ignored is that there is no new nature created with Blaze Release and it was explained how it works by C. It was also never called a Kekkei Genkai by itself, only through the use of Amaterasu. This "adv. nature" is unlike any other adv. nature that we know of and it would be plain wrong to handle it the same as we do it with the others. Seelentau 愛^議 15:33, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

As we technically never actually seen it in the manga. Hard to say. If it moves the theory of using what we know, yeah i would. (Read: technically it doesn't. Nobody ever mentioned a 透遁, being its own little thing...whatever that would actually become. Because we don't know what it actually does beyond "It lets people spy on you without being seen", I don't know if it uses an element or not)

And yes, it not manipulating a new element is a pickle. I have always attributed it as Kishimoto pulling it unneceasarily out of his ass to explain why the uncontrollable black flames of Amaterasu (in more or less words used when it first appeared) can be controlled. It never being called a kekkei genkai but attributed to one by using Amaterasu is obvious and would again feed into the thought of "Not being told so lol not going to think about it"; if something requires the use of Amaterasu to even exist, it must require the ability to use Amaterasu to even work. Amaterasu is a kekkei genkai, so the thing that directly controls it must also be a kekkei genkai. That should not be difficult to work out. And using the unlike any other nature we've seen, I will again use Explosion Release. Explosion Release is not an element. An explosion of energy being released, violently. I will then use Dust Release. Dust Release does not actually involve the use of dust, it involves particles which are crushed to the point they they "become dust". So Blaze Release is not the only one that doesn't create a new element. If I am allowed to theorycraft (yes I am theorycrafting), Blaze Release could very well be a form of Fire Release so high that it allows the user to manipulate Amaterasu.--TheUltimate3

^(talk) 15:46, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

In fact, I could argue the only element that actually creates something new is Wood Release, as Water + Earth somehow makes a flower. Everything else so far has simply taken something or changed its shape. Except for Explosion Release, which just got violent and angry.--TheUltimate3

^(talk) 15:49, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

We also have "can't put my testicle on line for validity of all content present in the article" template that we barely use :-/ I wish Godai and Suki were still around, they kinda had an unique view on things.... sadly, you have to make do with yours truly instead :P Let me start with a little analysis that could help us solve the case... also a little bit of logic with a spice of speculation doesn't hurt either, so:

We know of 5 basic natures and yin/yang/yin-yang that may be basic, advanced or not considered natures at all.
Therefore we have Fire, Wind, Lightning, Earth and Water as basic (possibly Yin, Yang) and (Yin-Yang ???) Once we were told there are 6 natures, but that got retconned I believe, making things even more confusing... if Yin and Yang were basic natures, that would have made it "7 basic" so I believe it was Yin-Yang that was once by Kishi considered to be "the 6th nature" but it likely got changed into an advanced one or as I said, yin/yang/yin-yang are a completely separate category (so neither), this being the most likely case.
We know of: Ice Release, Wood Release, Lava Release, Storm Release, Boil Release, Explosion Release, Scorch Release, Magnet Release.

Let's keep Dust Release out of this because it's a mix of three and it wasn't even suggested that Blaze Release could be a Kekkei Tota, so it won't help us here.

We know that a basic nature may be included in more than just one elemental bloodline limit --

Fire is being used in: Lava Release, Boil Release, Scorch Release, ?Explosion Release?, ?Blaze Release?
Wind is being used in: Ice Release, Scorch Release, ?Explosion Release?, ?Magnet Release?
Lightning is being used in: Storm Release, ?Explosion Release?, ?Magnet Release?, ?Blaze Release?
Earth is being used in: Wood Release, Lava Release, ?Explosion Release?, ?Magnet Release?
Water is being used in: Ice Release, Wood Release, Storm Release, Boil Release

Let's count them --

Fire appears in at least 3 (possible at most 4, so either Blaze isn't an advanced nature or Explosion doesn't consist of Fire)
Wind appears in at least 2 (possible at most 4, may be in Explosion or Magnet)
Lightning appears in at least 1 (possible at most 4, with only either being part of Blaze or Explosion, may be in Magnet also)
Earth appears in at least 2 (at most 4, may be in Explosion or Magnet)
Water appears in 4 (maximum, can't combine with itself, can it?)

So what's missing --

Fire+Lightning/Lightning+Fire (possibly Explosion?)(possibly Blaze?) only either
Wind+Lightning/Lightning+Wind, Wind+Earth/Earth+Wind (possibly Explosion?)(possibly Magnet?)
Lightning+Earth/Earth+Lightning (possibly Explosion?)(possibly Magnet?)

We can from this conclude that Kishi obviously hasn't yet revealed to us all double-type combinations, we know of 8 (9 if Blaze counts) but 2 are still missing (1 if Blaze counts) from possible 10 and it's unlikely that will ever happen, considering the story is almost over. But we can address to the "known unknown" 2 (3 if Blaze included) advanced natures the most probable combinations:

Blaze Release could in theory indeed be Fire+Lightning because Sasuke has both and there sure is 1 space left for Fire and 3 for Lightning.
Explosion Release is very unlikely to be Lightning+Fire, Lightning+Earth or Lightning+Wind for a single reason... Deidara kneads the "explosive chakra" into Earth-natured clay, and Earth is weak against Lightning.

So I'm glad we have finally come to the conclusion that Explosion Release consist of Earth+Wind, thanks for listening.

Magnet Release is therefore either Lightning+Wind/Wind+Lightning or Lighting+Earth/Earth+Lightning

With this setup, we have 4 for Fire (with Blaze included), 3 for Wind (with Explosion included and 4 with possibly Magnet), 2 for Lightning (with Blaze included and 3 with possibly Magnet), 3 for Earth (with Explosion included and 4 with possibly Magnet), 4 for Water.

So in case you don't suck at math, you should have figured by now that it fits perfectly for Blaze Release to be Fire+Lightning still leaving 1 space left for unrevealed advanced nature. The only way for it not to be is if Kishi has something different for Fire+Lightning in his head other than Blaze, but you would have to ignore the "ton" part and "coincidence" that Sasuke has both.

I hope you enjoyed reading.--Elveonora (talk) 17:29, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, but that's not making anything better, it's just more speculation :/ Seelentau 愛^議 17:55, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

I shouldn't have made it that long. Let's keep it simple, there are 10 possible dual advanced nature combinations and we know of 8. Let's just hypothetically say Blaze Release is one also, therefore 9. A single basic nature can mix with other 4 to make an advanced one.

Fire is already in: Lava Release, Blaze Release (let's say), Boil Release, Scorch Release - 4 times, so used up
Wind is already in: Ice Release, Explosion Release (let's say), Scorch Release, Magnet Release (let's say) - 4 times, so used up
Lightning is already in: Blaze Release (let's say), Storm Release, Magnet Release (let's say) and an unknown advanced nature - 3/4 times
Earth is already in: Wood Release, Lava Release, Explosion Release (let's say), Magnet Release (let's say) - 4 times, so used up
Water is already in: Ice Release, Wood Release, Storm Release, Boil Release - 4 times, so used up... no speculation here.

So it's a theorycrafting:

What is to be learned from this, is that Explosion, Magnet, possibly Blaze and the unrevealed nature may only either be:

fire+lightning
wind+lightning
wind+earth
lightning+earth

The likelihood of Blaze Release being an advanced nature is high. Not only has it the affix, but can in theory be a mix of two available elements, both of which Sasuke possess, so coincidence???
If you disagree with my Explosion Release, it can either be then: Fire+Lightning (in case Blaze isn't it or the unknown one), Wind+Lightning, Wind+Earth (my opinion) or Lightning+Earth.
Magnet Release is unlikely to be the 4th one to consist of Fire rather than Blaze, Explosion or the unknown one, so it can either be: Wind+Lightning, Wind+Earth, Lightning+Earth.

This is all I meant to say. And now let me ask you... if Amaterasu is Fire Release and is cast directly from the eyes, who is to say any other element can't?--Elveonora (talk) 18:26, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

Anyway, my point was to convince you that Blaze Release being an advanced nature is very likely and even is too good to be coincidental. The issue is if we should or shouldn't help ourselves with things such as logic and likelihood in cases when "we don't know" .. As a wiki, we shouldn't have unverified information in the articles, true, but completely ignoring human factor seems strange too imo, we aren't bots. The majority of fanbase and even videogames (unless I'm mistaken) take it for granted that Blaze Release is an advanced nature, so suddenly changing it? Too late I say.--Elveonora (talk) 18:39, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

Uh, well, the Blaze Release issue is actually just an example for the whole problem. So I guess you went a little bit far with your whole explanation, because I totally understand why you guys want to label it as an advanced nature. And you know what? I even agree with you. But! I don't agree with it on a level of facts. And the facts are:

Sasuke casts it with his eyes, not through his hands. According to Yamato, you have to mix two basic natures to form an advanced nature. Sasuke isn't even forming hand seals.
Sasuke uses form manipulation on a basic nature, he isn't adding a second nature. Advanced natures have always been two natures, but here's only one used (unless proven otherwise, of course).
Sasuke does not create a new, advanced nature, which always happens (on different levels, though). He still uses Amaterasu, which is Katon, there is no new nature like lava or wood.

So I want these three points to be cleared before I agree with you guys on a level of facts. Because going by facts we only have the suffix. It's three against one right now. Oh and by the way, if we should come to agree that Blaze Release isn't an advanced nature, then Explosion and Magnetic aren't advanced natures, either. Because not one of them was called that. Seelentau 愛^議 20:04, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

It makes sense and I agree with you. But I will not agree that it's a basic nature or maybe it's not a nature at all maybe it's just like bones or websMunchvtec munchvtec