Forum:Fact policy

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Hi guys.
Most of you probably noticed the discussion regarding the Blaze Release and how we handle it. I started it, even though I was aware that it has been discussed over and over again. Since I'm not a random Naruto fan, I allowed myself to bring it up again, anyway. The reason for that is not that I want to force my view of things into the articles, but that I think there's a bigger problem this wiki has: The way of handling and presenting information that isn't confirmed.
Whenever something remains unclear, there should be one way we handle it: We state that it's not been explained yet and don't make any conclusions based on opinions. That's all there is to it. However, what we really do is randomly deciding how we handle each case.
We have the Blaze Release case, where we state as a fact that it's an advanced nature, even though that was never, ever stated in the manga and there are more facts that speak against it. But we also have the Ranshinshō case, where we don't say that it's a raitonjutsu, we only have a trivia for it and a (presumed) in Tsunade's infobox. We don't even mention it in Tsunade's ability section.
As you can see, we don't have a fixed policy or why're we handling each case differently? Seelentau 愛^議 13:37, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

This is probably going to end up well.

The problem,as I see it, insistence of accepting that we don't know something and refuse to try and make sense of it. We cannot except Kishimoto to hand everything on a silver platter. The man can barely keep his own story straight and seems to do a lot of things just to make them interesting.

Because we take such a broad stance on things we don't know, we unnecessarily pussyfoot around things and then just leave it and settle into a "hope for the best" resolution.

Using the Body Pathway Derangement, as that was a resolved case from years back, because the technique used electrical pathways many assumed it was a Lightning Release. This topic met, what I believe was a universal end of debate scenerio back in 2008 when Dantman said that because it didn't fit with any other lightning technique, that the use of the electrical pathways was used out of context (and it probably was, as the electrical pathways in the body are to my understanding nothing like actual lightning) and every conversation about it since then have kinda kept to that line of reasoning. Overall, it is both a good and a bad example to use in this discussion, mainly by the way we the editors at the time just kinda dropped it as a subject. It is good to bring it back though.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 13:57, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

Then why are we handling this new subject so differently? I understand that there's been way too much discussion about it, but they all ended without coming to a conclusion. What we have at the moment simply isn't a fitting way for a wiki to handle things. We need a rule, which should obviously cover every potential issue that may arise in the future. I would define this rule as:

Every information that has not been provided by the manga or any other official source has to be considered as speculation and as such should not be stated as a fact in an article. If necessary, a trivia explanation can be made.

Wouldn't that be okay? Seelentau 愛^議 14:16, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

Because to put it very simply, we handled Body Pathway Derangement very poorly. Back then, because Dantman said "no" we accepted that as law and didn't challenge it and never did. We didn't make a rule or even an exception, we just didn't even try. If he had this same discussion like we are now, things probably would have ended up differently.

And only it is acceptable only when it is so far out of left field that it requires stretching to reach. Something like Blaze Release (to use the most recent issue) can be explained using every piece of information we have to reach the conclusion that is is a nature transformation. The ones that can't be reached through the information we do have is what makes it, but that doesn't discount what we can conclude. We aren't arguing that Explosion Release isn't an advanced nature, even though we don't know what makes its parts. We know it is because it isn't any of the main five.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 14:36, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

But what if, as it is in the most recent case, we can't explain everything? The way we explain it is now, it's half-assed. You said it yourself: We don't have proof that it's a nature and we don't have proof that it's not a nature. But instead of saying that we don't know, we pretend that we know that it's a nature.

What we do is not stating facts (= that it's not been explained), but stating our own opinions as facts. And that is something a wiki must not do. Otherwise, this would be absolutely legitimate: I worked on a theory regarding Inton, Sasuke's Genjutsu-eye and the form manipulation of Enton and it's based on manga facts. It's flawless and since we state opinions as facts, I am allowed to add it to the Enton article (and others).

But I doubt that you want such situatons to arise. And no, this is not a threat, I obviously won't do that. Seelentau 愛^議 14:55, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

....What theory regarding Yin Release and what about Genjutsu eye?

And if it actually leads to somewhere actual thought is used instead of "thumb-up-ass-let's-do-nothing" we've been doing so far, I'm all for it. I'm saying when we have legit information that can end to a solution (example: Technique is called "X Release", user used a move called "X Release: Y", X is not part of the five standard natures but must be made of at least 1 of them) then we can and should be able to use the giant organ in our heads and come up with the logically conclusion that (example: Because X Release fits every definition that current exists for Z, X = Z. For added fun, this entire line of reasoning, I used Explosion Release as the base. User had Explosion Release, used Explosion Release: Landmine Fist, is not a Fire, Water, Earth, Wind, and Lightning nature, components are unknown.)

The thing I stress, and stress hard is that I hope we are smart enough to take things and use them logically. If someone has to go through a great many jumps of mental gymnastics to reach a conclusion then that is probably bit to far. But when is able to basic things that has been established, look at the scenario at hand, we should be able to come up with a logical conclusion that we can present. And if, and this is a big if, Kishimoto finally decides to release a databook to explain this stuff then we can change it. But dancing around stuff like we are doing now makes us come across as being willfully stupid.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 15:12, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

The problem is here: "Technique is called "X Release", user used a move called "X Release: Y", X is not part of the five standard natures but must be made of at least 1 of them" - the bolded fact is the part that upsets me to no end. Just because of the word "Release" you assume that it's nature? Again, we have Tonton (no, not the pig, the Transparent Escape), but that isn't a release despite using the same Kanji, is it? Furthermore, you ignore everything that doesn't add up with what we know. Seelentau 愛^議 15:19, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

Ah, and now I see the break. (If it hasn't been made obvious by now, if you use the romaji exclusively, at least if you are talking to me, expect there to be a disconnect. As you may have noticed, I kept using Blaze Release instead of Enton. Much much easier for me to follow.) In that case, my point still stands in that if it is an "Element Release" it goes nature. It also brings up the point that why is Transparent Escape Technique has "遁" in it and it doesn't become Release (the only thing that pops in my head is that "透遁" directly becomes "Transparent Escape" but obviously, I don't know Japanese). And I'm not ignoring anything (or at least I shouldn't be, as i tried to take into account everything) that doesn't add up to what we know, I'm simply not ignoring what we do know, have used, and what could be the result.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 15:29, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

So in your opinion we should create another adv. nature called Transparent Release?

What you ignored is that there is no new nature created with Blaze Release and it was explained how it works by C. It was also never called a Kekkei Genkai by itself, only through the use of Amaterasu. This "adv. nature" is unlike any other adv. nature that we know of and it would be plain wrong to handle it the same as we do it with the others. Seelentau 愛^議 15:33, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

As we technically never actually seen it in the manga. Hard to say. If it moves the theory of using what we know, yeah i would. (Read: technically it doesn't. Nobody ever mentioned a 透遁, being its own little thing...whatever that would actually become. Because we don't know what it actually does beyond "It lets people spy on you without being seen", I don't know if it uses an element or not)

And yes, it not manipulating a new element is a pickle. I have always attributed it as Kishimoto pulling it unneceasarily out of his ass to explain why the uncontrollable black flames of Amaterasu (in more or less words used when it first appeared) can be controlled. It never being called a kekkei genkai but attributed to one by using Amaterasu is obvious and would again feed into the thought of "Not being told so lol not going to think about it"; if something requires the use of Amaterasu to even exist, it must require the ability to use Amaterasu to even work. Amaterasu is a kekkei genkai, so the thing that directly controls it must also be a kekkei genkai. That should not be difficult to work out. And using the unlike any other nature we've seen, I will again use Explosion Release. Explosion Release is not an element. An explosion of energy being released, violently. I will then use Dust Release. Dust Release does not actually involve the use of dust, it involves particles which are crushed to the point they they "become dust". So Blaze Release is not the only one that doesn't create a new element. If I am allowed to theorycraft (yes I am theorycrafting), Blaze Release could very well be a form of Fire Release so high that it allows the user to manipulate Amaterasu.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 15:46, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

In fact, I could argue the only element that actually creates something new is Wood Release, as Water + Earth somehow makes a flower. Everything else so far has simply taken something or changed its shape. Except for Explosion Release, which just got violent and angry.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 15:49, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

We also have "can't put my testicle on line for validity of all content present in the article" template that we barely use :-/ I wish Godai and Suki were still around, they kinda had an unique view on things.... sadly, you have to make do with yours truly instead :P Let me start with a little analysis that could help us solve the case... also a little bit of logic with a spice of speculation doesn't hurt either, so:

• We know of 5 basic natures and yin/yang/yin-yang that may be basic, advanced or not considered natures at all.
• Therefore we have Fire, Wind, Lightning, Earth and Water as basic (possibly Yin, Yang) and (Yin-Yang ???) Once we were told there are 6 natures, but that got retconned I believe, making things even more confusing... if Yin and Yang were basic natures, that would have made it "7 basic" so I believe it was Yin-Yang that was once by Kishi considered to be "the 6th nature" but it likely got changed into an advanced one or as I said, yin/yang/yin-yang are a completely separate category (so neither), this being the most likely case.
• We know of: Ice Release, Wood Release, Lava Release, Storm Release, Boil Release, Explosion Release, Scorch Release, Magnet Release.

Let's keep Dust Release out of this because it's a mix of three and it wasn't even suggested that Blaze Release could be a Kekkei Tota, so it won't help us here.

• We know that a basic nature may be included in more than just one elemental bloodline limit --

1. Fire is being used in: Lava Release, Boil Release, Scorch Release, ?Explosion Release?, ?Blaze Release?
2. Wind is being used in: Ice Release, Scorch Release, ?Explosion Release?, ?Magnet Release?
3. Lightning is being used in: Storm Release, ?Explosion Release?, ?Magnet Release?, ?Blaze Release?
4. Earth is being used in: Wood Release, Lava Release, ?Explosion Release?, ?Magnet Release?
5. Water is being used in: Ice Release, Wood Release, Storm Release, Boil Release

• Let's count them --

1. Fire appears in at least 3 (possible at most 4, so either Blaze isn't an advanced nature or Explosion doesn't consist of Fire)
2. Wind appears in at least 2 (possible at most 4, may be in Explosion or Magnet)
3. Lightning appears in at least 1 (possible at most 4, with only either being part of Blaze or Explosion, may be in Magnet also)
4. Earth appears in at least 2 (at most 4, may be in Explosion or Magnet)
5. Water appears in 4 (maximum, can't combine with itself, can it?)

• So what's missing --

1. Fire+Lightning/Lightning+Fire (possibly Explosion?)(possibly Blaze?) only either
2. Wind+Lightning/Lightning+Wind, Wind+Earth/Earth+Wind (possibly Explosion?)(possibly Magnet?)
3. Lightning+Earth/Earth+Lightning (possibly Explosion?)(possibly Magnet?)

• We can from this conclude that Kishi obviously hasn't yet revealed to us all double-type combinations, we know of 8 (9 if Blaze counts) but 2 are still missing (1 if Blaze counts) from possible 10 and it's unlikely that will ever happen, considering the story is almost over. But we can address to the "known unknown" 2 (3 if Blaze included) advanced natures the most probable combinations:

1. Blaze Release could in theory indeed be Fire+Lightning because Sasuke has both and there sure is 1 space left for Fire and 3 for Lightning.
2. Explosion Release is very unlikely to be Lightning+Fire, Lightning+Earth or Lightning+Wind for a single reason... Deidara kneads the "explosive chakra" into Earth-natured clay, and Earth is weak against Lightning.

So I'm glad we have finally come to the conclusion that Explosion Release consist of Earth+Wind, thanks for listening.

1. Magnet Release is therefore either Lightning+Wind/Wind+Lightning or Lighting+Earth/Earth+Lightning

• With this setup, we have 4 for Fire (with Blaze included), 3 for Wind (with Explosion included and 4 with possibly Magnet), 2 for Lightning (with Blaze included and 3 with possibly Magnet), 3 for Earth (with Explosion included and 4 with possibly Magnet), 4 for Water.

So in case you don't suck at math, you should have figured by now that it fits perfectly for Blaze Release to be Fire+Lightning still leaving 1 space left for unrevealed advanced nature. The only way for it not to be is if Kishi has something different for Fire+Lightning in his head other than Blaze, but you would have to ignore the "ton" part and "coincidence" that Sasuke has both.

I hope you enjoyed reading.--Elveonora (talk) 17:29, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, but that's not making anything better, it's just more speculation :/ Seelentau 愛^議 17:55, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

I shouldn't have made it that long. Let's keep it simple, there are 10 possible dual advanced nature combinations and we know of 8. Let's just hypothetically say Blaze Release is one also, therefore 9. A single basic nature can mix with other 4 to make an advanced one.

• Fire is already in: Lava Release, Blaze Release (let's say), Boil Release, Scorch Release - 4 times, so used up
• Wind is already in: Ice Release, Explosion Release (let's say), Scorch Release, Magnet Release (let's say) - 4 times, so used up
• Lightning is already in: Blaze Release (let's say), Storm Release, Magnet Release (let's say) and an unknown advanced nature - 3/4 times
• Earth is already in: Wood Release, Lava Release, Explosion Release (let's say), Magnet Release (let's say) - 4 times, so used up
• Water is already in: Ice Release, Wood Release, Storm Release, Boil Release - 4 times, so used up... no speculation here.

So it's a theorycrafting:

What is to be learned from this, is that Explosion, Magnet, possibly Blaze and the unrevealed nature may only either be:

1. fire+lightning
2. wind+lightning
3. wind+earth
4. lightning+earth

• The likelihood of Blaze Release being an advanced nature is high. Not only has it the affix, but can in theory be a mix of two available elements, both of which Sasuke possess, so coincidence???
• If you disagree with my Explosion Release, it can either be then: Fire+Lightning (in case Blaze isn't it or the unknown one), Wind+Lightning, Wind+Earth (my opinion) or Lightning+Earth.
• Magnet Release is unlikely to be the 4th one to consist of Fire rather than Blaze, Explosion or the unknown one, so it can either be: Wind+Lightning, Wind+Earth, Lightning+Earth.

This is all I meant to say. And now let me ask you... if Amaterasu is Fire Release and is cast directly from the eyes, who is to say any other element can't?--Elveonora (talk) 18:26, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

Anyway, my point was to convince you that Blaze Release being an advanced nature is very likely and even is too good to be coincidental. The issue is if we should or shouldn't help ourselves with things such as logic and likelihood in cases when "we don't know" .. As a wiki, we shouldn't have unverified information in the articles, true, but completely ignoring human factor seems strange too imo, we aren't bots. The majority of fanbase and even videogames (unless I'm mistaken) take it for granted that Blaze Release is an advanced nature, so suddenly changing it? Too late I say.--Elveonora (talk) 18:39, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

Uh, well, the Blaze Release issue is actually just an example for the whole problem. So I guess you went a little bit far with your whole explanation, because I totally understand why you guys want to label it as an advanced nature. And you know what? I even agree with you. But! I don't agree with it on a level of facts. And the facts are:

• Sasuke casts it with his eyes, not through his hands. According to Yamato, you have to mix two basic natures to form an advanced nature. Sasuke isn't even forming hand seals.
• Sasuke uses form manipulation on a basic nature, he isn't adding a second nature. Advanced natures have always been two natures, but here's only one used (unless proven otherwise, of course).
• Sasuke does not create a new, advanced nature, which always happens (on different levels, though). He still uses Amaterasu, which is Katon, there is no new nature like lava or wood.

So I want these three points to be cleared before I agree with you guys on a level of facts. Because going by facts we only have the suffix. It's three against one right now. Oh and by the way, if we should come to agree that Blaze Release isn't an advanced nature, then Explosion and Magnetic aren't advanced natures, either. Because not one of them was called that. Seelentau 愛^議 20:04, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

It makes sense and I agree with you. But I will not agree that it's a basic nature or maybe it's not a nature at all maybe it's just like bones or websMunchvtec munchvtec

As you may have noticed, I like to post long texts :P Response time:

• So Amaterasu isn't Fire Release either cause those need hand seals and are being puked out, if he can do a nature with an eye, figure he can do an advanced one using both eyes
• Dunno, wouldn't you imagine fire+lightning as shapeshifting fire?
• Looks the same for sure, doesn't mean it is tho
• If I were you, I wouldn't even come close to Explosion and Magnetic releases. Not everything is spoon-fed to us, there has to be a balance between logical conclusions and facts, going purely by known facts is the right thing to do, but would be very limiting. Had we gone by "facts" all along, there wouldn't have been articles such as Body Flame Jutsu and Attack Prevention Technique among others. In short, sometimes it's necessary to create context for content--Elveonora (talk) 22:13, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

• Amaterasu isn't an advanced nature, so you can't apply Yamato's explanation.
• No. Lightning isn't known for shaping stuff.
• Doesn't mean it isn't either.
• Those articles bug me, too. The Body Flame Jutsu is a kind of Shunshin, the Attack Prevention Jutsu is pure speculation, Orochimaru only hides in a tree (however he does that, without Mokuton). I know that we have to give statements on everything, but calling Blaze Release an advanced nature is too much. Seelentau 愛^議 09:02, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I feel like this whole topic is still too concentrated on Blaze Release. Allow me to explain how this wiki deals with information right now and how it should be dealing with it:
New information, for example a new technique, is shown in the manga. However, it is not named and there's no further information about it aside from how it looks. What we usually do is comparing the technique with similar ones. If there's a similar technique, we note that the new technique is a derivation or so. If there's no similar technique, we go and create an article for the new technique. So far, so good. The problem is, how do we decide if the new technique is either an old one or a new one? Is it up to the editor who creates the article? Do the admins decide? Are there any requirements that need to be fulfilled for a technique to be a new or an old one? I work in this wiki for more than three years and as far as I remember, it was always kind of a random decision. But we can't do stuff randomly here, we need a set of rules we can apply to any new information. Seelentau 愛^議 11:51, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

And what sort of criteria do you propose?NaviiGator (A.K.A.KotoSenju)-Talk-Contributions 11:53, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

If an information was stated (in the manga/anime/etc) to be X, then everything is okay and we can write it down as a fact. If it was not stated to be X (and there's a possibility it's Y or even Z), we don't write it down as a fact, even if we believe that it's X. So, to work with the aforementioned example technique: If the technique is stated to be X, we write that down. If it's not stated to be X and could as well be Y or Z, we write down that it's unknown if it's X, Y or Z. We don't have everything served by Kishimoto and we have to use our own minds at some point, that's right. But it's no reason to assume things based on our own opinions. Seelentau 愛^議 12:02, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Well, Blaze Release is one of the topics concerning you and currently it's 2 sysops for advanced nature I believe. The only middle way to come out from it is to remove the advanced part and make it Fire Release. But that's gonna confuse fans all around the world, because all of us "know" that there's such a thing as Blaze Release, get it? Don't know how this phenomenon is called, but sometimes when you are aware that you might be mistaken, but the majority has come to know the same misinformation as a fact, it's better just to play along I guess. Also it sounds ridiculous: "Fire Release: Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi. OH WAIT, if Blaze Release weren't a different nature, the technique would have been called just "Kagutsuchi" if this ain't enough evidence then dunno. It basically has a nature prefix and it ain't Katon--Elveonora (talk) 12:14, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

I don't know what famous person said this, but only because a billion people think something is correct doesn't mean that it's actually correct. And it should be our job to lead those people on the right path and not leave them in their false reality. Seelentau 愛^議 12:19, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

By the way, a good example of how to handle things is how we didn't make Nagato and Karin Uzumakis or Tsunade a Senju in their article names. Seelentau 愛^議 12:22, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

I believe it's called society, welcome to the real world, place where you know only what others want you to think is true.

Anyway, how can you ignore the prefix? Answer me this:

• Amaterasu = Katon, the prefix is dropped because the technique's named literary after a deity of sun, but databook confirms it's a Katon.
• Logic has it Blaze Release is still no less than Katon
• That begs the question that if it isn't a new nature, why does Sasuke call it one?

Fire Release: Kagutsuchi or just Kagutsuchi would be correct in scenario you are right, except it's being called "nature not part of the basic five-release: name of the technique" how is that not PROOF? Ninja don't go around calling out "Mud Release" and "Mist/Fog Release" and so on. So unless Sasuke just decided to call incorrectly Katon Enton, it's a new nature and it isn't a part of the five therefore advanced, topic concluded. What next?--Elveonora (talk) 12:25, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Elveonora didn't put it in a particularly...conversational way, but that is the basis of my reasoning as well. Sasuke called it a Nature, in the same format all the other Natures have been shown. No other shinobi pulled out a new technique written and formatted in the exact same way as every other Nature.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 12:31, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

It's not that we dont make them Uzumaki or Senju(it's given in their "Clan" classification), it's just dont make that their surnames. Well, because it could be anything other than the clan name. But on this fact policy, I agree with Elveo and the others. We arent bots so it's farfetched to think that everything will classified perfectly. Yes, the Attack Prevention Technique. Perfect example that Elveo gave. There are certain times that we have to fill content with context (perfect line btw.) Now, it's our collective job to determine how we go about delivering our information, but it's not something that we can just disregard in favor for complete factual evidence, because again like Elveo said, its very limiting. With that said, I am however in favor for a criteria; something we can all go off and base our decisions on.

Now about the blaze release issue. Maybe after we come to a consensus on what how we classify information (the criteria) that isnt explained upon, then we can decide what to do with it.NaviiGator (A.K.A.KotoSenju)-Talk-Contributions 12:35, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Sasuke called it a release the same way Jiraiya called his transparent escape technique a release. So we already have one exception of the "release = nature" rule. The possibility exists that Blaze Release is another exception, we can't say for sure. And as long as we can't say for sure, we have no right to act like we can say for sure. This isn't a mindset suited for a wiki and I'm the wind that wants to change this mindset. Seelentau 愛^議 12:39, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Except the name of Jiraiya's technique doesn't serve as a prefix and have a colon, but Sasuke's has a prefix not unlike a nature's "somethingTON : insert name" so it's hardly a valid comparison at this point--Elveonora (talk) 12:45, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

But only because there have been no Totonjutsu shown as of now. Seelentau 愛^議 12:50, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Ah but that is the thing. If it DID have a Tonton: X Jutsu, it would be relavent to the issue we have now. It does not, so like Elveonora said, the only thing similar is the name, not the way it was used.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 12:56, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, if we count that out, we still only have one pro-adv. nature argument, which is the suffix, while the main contra argument is that blaze release works unlike any other advanced nature. Seelentau 愛^議 13:01, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Jiraiya's was spoken about as a single technique, not a brand of. While Sasuke has more "Blaze Release: Things" Again, there's no reason for Sasuke to use the prefix "Blaze Release:" without it referring to a nature, since Kagutsuchi or Fire Release: Kagutsuchi would just do. Prefixes aren't just being thrown around for teh lulz... they serve to highlight that a technique is part of a school, we have:

• summoning: something
• Xrelease: something
• outer path: something also as an example

NEVER something such as "Kick to the balls : painful much technique" "concentration technique: running on water" or shi* unless you know about any.

"Works unlikey any other advanced nature" I think at this point with all due respect you are a Kabuto locked in Izanami. Dust Release doesn't even burn, blow/cut, adjusts weight/create earthy substance or decomposes, yet it's a mix of Fire, Wind and Earth.--Elveonora (talk) 13:05, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

I know I'm not overly active here but I just read through this and saw a point Seel made that seemed to be skipped over in everything else. Of all the nature types we know of, advanced or otherwise, this is the only one that only exits to control a pre-existing type. It has only been used to manipulate the flames of Amaterasu, which I believe has been officially stated to be fire release. So, while other advance natures have, in some way been an independent force, Blaze Release is not. I only reiterate it because I think such a dramatic difference in use is important when discussing its status. Again, sorry if I'm out of line for stepping in like this.--Soul reaper (talk) 13:07, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

That's what I meant with "it works unlike any other advanced nature", not what you said, elve-kun. Seelentau 愛^議

Very nice point. You should be editing more often and are welcome to do so. But: Ice Release can be used not only by directly creating the advanced nature chakra from the user's body with hand seals, but being created by using a pre-existing water source as well. Wood Release isn't necessary to be used directly from the user's body part with hand seals, but can be from pre-existing earth around as well. Although only in filler, a Fire Release manipulating an already existing fire was shown. Point being a basic and advanced nature can be used to manipulate another--Elveonora (talk) 13:20, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Still not what I meant. Close, though. Seelentau 愛^議 13:22, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Now I'm confused.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 13:22, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Blaze Release isn't an advanced nature created by combining two basic natures, but something that is created by applying Keitaihenka to a basic nature. It's still Amaterasu, a Fire Release, but with a specific form. If an advanced nature is created, two natures a mixed. This is not the case here. And yes, I know that Sasuke has two natures and it could be very well a Katon/Raiton advanced nature, but it wasn't even once hinted that Raiton is part of Blaze Release. Seelentau 愛^議 13:26, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

The wikia does not, not have a fact policy. We work off precedence. We establish a trend based off what has previously been see — if applicable — and go from there. That has always been how we try to do it. Ergo Blaze Release is a nature transformation simply because it says Release. The rest is honestly up to Kishimoto to explain on that one — at least give him the opportunity to explain his own story. We do try constantly to keep the information 100% factual, but you will always find that there are individual cases that cannot work under the "blanketed" approach and you will always find people ready to jump the gun - thankfully we have more levelheaded people here than fanboys and girls. In short: I am not against a fact policy, but I don't think the system we have in place is entirely flawed.--Cerez365^™(talk) 13:29, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

But isn't the precedence thing part of the problem? I can certainly see it creating a change of falsehoods and misleading statements based on people continually turning to what was done before. And Elveonora, you bring up a good point with Ice Release, but I will counter by saying that the only form we've seen the second style of it is in the anime, while in the manga the kekkei genkei form worked much like the other Advanced Nature types we've seen. Furthermore, it was still called Ice Style in the movie, rather than receiving a new name to control a pre-existing element. While I agree with Cerez on the point that Kishimoto is ultimately the one who has to explain it, I think Seel is right in that we should be more cautious with how we word ambiguous subjects.--Soul reaper (talk) 13:36, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Too strict laws and restrictions are only a temptation for them to be violated more often than when there are less, it's human nature.

@Seel, but you can't say with certainty that two natures don't get mixed in Blaze. This is the very basic trait of Raiton chakra: "high frequency vibrations" correct me if I'm wrong, but friction creates heat. I'm not sure if I should apply real-life physics and chemistry into this, but Fire ain't even an element but a reaction of mixed combustive gases. Gases turn into plasma with enough heat, therefore Blaze? :D--Elveonora (talk) 13:49, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not saying it with certainty. That's the point I'm trying to make. This wiki says things with certainty, even though they were never stated that certainly in the manga. It could be Fire + Lightning, but it also could not be. As long as both is possible, we can't go and say it is. Seelentau 愛^議 13:54, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

But I don't think we ever mentioned "what" makes the nature. It has always been "This is an advance nature because blah blah blah we've been over this part". We never made the assumption of "it is made of x and y" because lawl we haven't a clue.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 13:56, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, there won't be any lightning mentioned, but we know it's fire and everything point to it being an advanced nature, therefore the way the article is now is alright.--Elveonora (talk) 13:58, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

"Blaze Release isn't an advanced nature created by combining two basic natures, but something that is created by applying Keitaihenka to a basic nature. It's still Amaterasu, a Fire Release, but with a specific form. If an advanced nature is created, two natures a mixed. This is not the case here. And yes, I know that Sasuke has two natures and it could be very well a Katon/Raiton advanced nature, but it wasn't even once hinted that Raiton is part of Blaze Release." still stands. Seelentau 愛^議 14:00, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

I see your reasoning, but shape transformation really isn't a need for a nature to have its name changed, since 99% of elemental techniques use it. What you imply is that Sasuke right Mangekyou's power is shape transformation while his left's nature transformation? Still, don't see Sasuke's/Kishi's reasoning for calling it Blaze, meaning shape transformation isn't what makes it Blaze--Elveonora (talk) 14:34, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

I don't imply that. It was stated in the manga that Blaze Release works this way. Meaning, shape transformation is what makes it Blaze Release. Seelentau 愛^議 14:44, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Well, I have said what I had to say, the rest is up to other editors.--Elveonora (talk) 14:48, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

bump--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 23:49, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

While waiting for other opinions, let's make a list of examples how differently we handle some information here:

• Blaze Release – advanced nature or not? We label it advanced nature even though it's unlike any other
• Karin, Nagato & Tsunade, Nawaki – Uzumaki/Senju last names or not? We don't call them Karin Uzumaki etc. even though they're from those clans
• Rinbo: Hengoku – deva path or not? We don't label it deva path because that was never stated
• Tsunade's technique – lightning nature or not? We don't label it lightning nature but in Tsunade's infobox we do
• Tobirama's Kinjutsu – Reika no Jutsu or not? It could be that he meant that technique, but it's not sure, but a trivia entry isn't made, either

You see? Sometimes, we handle it the way it should be (rinbo, last names), other times we don't (blaze, Tsunade's technique) and even other times we've no consensus at all (kinjutsu). I wouldn't be so eager to create a fact policy if these case wouldn't exist. But they do. Seelentau 愛^議 08:51, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

This would also be an example that has been brought up a few times over the years.--BeyondRed (talk) 10:45, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

• Blaze Release - Is pretty well documented here.
• ShounenSuki explained this to us a while ago. One can be from a clan and not use the surname. Originally Kimimaro was listed as "Kimimaro Kaguya", but it was never shown to be his used name. As such, Tsunade, Karin, Nagato, ect have never used Uzumaki or Senju and thus, are more examples of people not having surnames.
• Rinbo: Hengoku - Leads back into this discussion, as the attack is shown as an invisible sucker punch that pushes the targeted back using the Rinnegan. Anything that pushes or pulls (read: Gravity) is shown to be a Deva Path ability. The only reason why we aren't calling it one is because Madara didn't stand there and say "I'm going to use some Deva Path power now."
• The Original OddBall - The big difference here, which probably does need to be addressed is how electrical currents from the muscles to the brain differ from lightning in the sky. Because lightning release deals with the latter.

Tobirama's Kinjutsu - Honestly that man can do whatever he wants. If he says he can throw his soul because lawl he can, then damnnit the man probably can. Thankfully we have an article for that.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 12:33, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

I think we should put the Blaze Release topic to rest for now, it seems there's a great difference of opinion about for-against evidence in that case. I see more harm in changing it than leaving it be. For Rinbo: Hengoku I think we should settle on Deva Path, because we know it's a Rinnegan technique and that:

• deva deals with gravity/forces of attraction and repulsion
• asura is cyborg and creepy stuff
• human deals with soul and mind
• animal with animals ._.
• preta absorption and barriers
• naraka is an engineer
• outer the default Rinnegan power, deals with life&death stuff and things related to tailed beasts such as creepy chains/dragons and shit

It fits into only one category, so should be obvious. Also nice Pokemon reference there ;)

Not true, lightning release chakra isn't even an actual electricity, but vibrating chakra.--Elveonora (talk) 13:24, February 6, 2014 (UTC)