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Ok, so there seems to be A LOT, and i do mean A LOT of talk between the difference between overhype and pointing out what the facts lead us too. Based off common sense, this shouldnt be needed, but it's good to get this issue out in the open. On an off note, im glad to be back editing on the wiki. I took a break, but noticed a lot of the same argument so, this is totally necessary if you seem to think otherwise.
So, let's just do the best we can and try to sum up, or even list, the differences to make it clear how we will construct character articles in the future. This will help end the edit wars. Now, if I can recall, this recently started w/ Naruto and Kurama's, then even Minato's, article. (Even Madara's suffered much scrutiny) But, from what i can tell, this deconstruction of articles seems to make some say that we are instead "devaluing" or rather "understating" the importance and power of the character, and their accomplishments.
I believe the line between overhype and proper use of facts are the situations like this: Proper use of facts: "Madara has legendary ability", Overhype "Madara has legendary and awesome combat prowess, intelligence, and skill."
- Both are true. One is clearly a fanboy gushing over Madara's great power.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 01:17, November 3, 2013 (UTC)
To wit, using the Sasori example. Here is what was previously written:
Sasori was a very powerful shinobi and a highly analytical and cunning man. Sasori's use of his puppets was greatly feared throughout the Third Shinobi World War as he turned the sand red with blood, giving him the nickname, "Sasori of the Red Sand". Sasori's abilities also gave him the power to defeat and kill the Third Kazekage, who was said to be the strongest ninja in the history of Sunagakure, though Sasori stated that he had some trouble defeating him. Deidara himself even admitted that Sasori was the stronger of the two of them.
And now the one being called "overhyped"
Sasori was one of the most powerful shinobi ever produced in Sunagakure and a highly analytical and cunning man. Sasori's abilities also gave him the power to defeat and kill the Third Kazekage, who was said to be the strongest ninja in the history of Sunagakure, though Sasori stated that he had some trouble defeating him. Deidara himself even admitted that Sasori was the stronger of the two of them. Sasori's use of his puppets was greatly feared throughout the Third Shinobi World War as he turned the sand red with blood, giving him the moniker, "Sasori of the Red Sand".
The biggest difference between these two is primarily the first sentence, where it was added that "Sasori was one of the most powerful shinobi every produced in Sunagakure". After that, things just get rearranged. Now, was Sasori a great shinobi from Suna? Yes he was. But is it actually necessary to mention? That can be argued.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 01:28, November 3, 2013 (UTC)
Well put. I understand that alot of it is argueable, but the facts of Sasor's accomplishment clearly point towards the latter edit. But now that brings me to what i referred to in the summary of my edit. What about the characters like Orochimaru, Minato, and other characters? How is that edit any different form what is listed on theri pages? KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 01:45, November 3, 2013 (UTC)
- Comparing Sasori to Orochimaru or Minato is probably wishful thinking at the best. Orochimaru is hailed by shinobi throughout the entire world as a genius shinobi, he is one of the Legendary Sannin, and the mere mention of his name is enough to make most countries tremble. Minato, similarly, was known as a hero who saved his village from a Bijū, and his prowess with his signature technique were such that just the mention of the technique caused shinobi, again, world round to refer to it as his rather than its actual creator, despite the creator also being an exceptional Hokage. To say that they were some of the best produced by their village, frankly would be justified.
- Overhype is when you take one accomplishment, in the case of Sasori defeating the Third Kazekage (actually he kidnapped him, so we don't know if he fought him in actual combat), and then jumping to the conclusion that he was the best shinobi produced by Sunagakure is overhype, in my eyes. Also, though this didn't happen with Sasori, I have seen certain users who feel the need to add ten "very"'s to hype up a shinobi's personality/abilities/what have you. We get it. They're great. They're strong. But it stands to good reason that fanboy mentality like that not be added to articles.
- Another common edit I've noticed is certain users adding additional adjectives to spice the language up. Going back to the first paragraph of my post, Minato and Orochimaru, for example, have actually been noted, in the manga, for being the best of the best produced by Konoha (along with others, of course). Sasori, on the other hand, has not received such mention. Is he a famous shinobi? No one debates that. But the best produced by Suna? That, me thinks, sounds like a fanboy hoping a little too much. And also, in the case of Sasori, a lot of the reason that edit keeps being reversed is because the user in question took one accomplishment, and rewrote an entirely well-written paragraph based on that one point, without prior discussion. Again, overhype. That's my opinion on the issue. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 02:36, November 3, 2013 (UTC)
- Edit: Also, as to the fear that we are somehow "downplaying" a character's strength is ridiculous. If anything, we're already overhyping them. Every single sneeze a character makes is added to their page as some great, extraordinary accomplishment, so not adding that they are, for an overexagerated example, "considered ninja Jesus" is not, in anyway devaluing them. What I think some editors don't get, is that it isn't our job to make them seem strong or weak, or whatever. We record the facts. And even more to the point, we record examples of their abilities to highlight a point. We don't need to mention every nook and tiny detail of a character's "super, mega, awesome, spectacular" powers. We're an encyclopedia, so we have to think practical when it comes to our articles. We're not supposed to placate a fanboy's delusions about their favorite characters. Again, my opinion. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 02:41, November 3, 2013 (UTC)
Ahh, it's good to be back.
Like always, Fox-Boss-Sensei, everything you say makes perfect sense to me. And you explained it well. I mean, I understand what you perceive as overhype and downplay, but what i would like to bring into play, from a little more than a month ago, was the total overhaul of Naruto's abilites section. I forgot who it was, but they trimmed nearly the entire abilities section by half. Removing a lot of what was repetitive, but a lot of examples Naruto's power of creativity and mastery. More specifically taijutsu and his prowess w/ his clones. Or even Kurama's abilities overhaul, which is in the same retrospect. So despite removing "the hype", it is easily to delete things unique to those character. And like the titla alone says, there exist a thin line between what overhype is, and stating facts.
On another note, the Sasori edit doesnt callhim the best, but one of the best. He has taken down a country and subdued/defeat/kill the Third Kazekage. However you look at it, to keep things consistent, it shouldnt be very( /chuckle**) debatable. I mean, how many times have we used facts in this matter on the wiki? KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 03:16, November 3, 2013 (UTC)
Well I see im late and as the one who started this debate I just want an opportunity to put my thoughts out there. Basically KotoSenju said most of my thoughts and I certainly do understand the contrasting viewpoints but there are still a few things I'll say. Just because your not mentioned much doesnt necessarily mean your not one of the best. In Sasori's case he defeated the best of the best in his village at that time. And on top of this it seems you guys forgot that was said. According to Chiyo the Third just disappeared and no one ever knew what happened to him, (we obviously know better) and still searched for him secretly in later years. So it wouldn't excatly be too far fetched that anyone wouldn't connected Sasori and the disappearance of the Third together. Now everyone has their own personal opinion but facts are facts, and the fact is he defeated the very best of his time so I think it's worth acknowledging (sorry if im being a little blunt). Also i didnt exactly rewrite the paragraph just make it sound better fit for the edit I had placed tthere. --Youngjusticeplayer007 (talk) 04:25, November 3, 2013 (UTC)
- Again, and this is posed at both of you, why is it that we so desperately need to draw unnecessary conclusions (in respects to Youngjusticeplayer's remarks) or write an entire section that sings Naruto's praises (in regards to KotoSenju's remarks)? I want you both to very seriously consider that. Refer back to what I said before. The Abilities section is, by no means, a word-for-word repeat of what the manga states/shows about a person's abilities. We include important information, in respects to the character, but it is meant to give examples as to what they are capable of. Again, both of you point out that Sasori should be mentioned as one of Sunagakure's best based on his feats. And that is understandable, but is not a reason to actually add it to the article.
- The way I see it is this; if you have to add a statement to a description that is not from the sourced material in order to make a character seem a certain way, then you're overhyping that character. For example, saying that "Naruto is one of the most powerful shinobi to be produced by Konoha," does not need any sort of imagination or fan help. He has been repeatedly stated as such in the manga. The same goes for shinobi like Orochimaru, Minato, Killer B, etc. Almost every major character, Sasori included, have had their exploits mentioned by someone, somewhere in the manga. Those exploits, even Sasori's, are mentioned on their pages. Why then, does it become necessary for you, or others, to then add to that that [they] are the most powerful [one of the most powerful] shinobi ever produced by their village? Who told you that? Kishimoto? Another character in the manga? That brings this point full circle. We, the fans, should not have to add to what the manga has said to make a character seem more extravagant than they really are. If you see Sasori as one of the best Hidden Sand shinobi, God's Speed to ya. View it how you want. But that remains your opinion, and thus, is necessary hype. To beat a dead horse, it is you taking what we already know about a character and adding more to it to spice things up.
- In regards to users that overhype articles repeatedly, this point is easy to prove. Almost everyone who has their edits reverted due to overhype only usually edit a certain article or certain groups of articles. Presumably, their favorite characters. Madara, Tobirama, Hashirama, etc, are the more common victims as of late, but I have seen others. That's not to say I'm against people editing their favorite character's article, but it is easy to pick out when someone is purposely overhyping a character because they like said character. Edit wars, which is the point of this discussion, hence why I mention this, only happens when one editor, who seems to favor the character, gets upset when either A) their edit is reverted and they think their character is being shorted or B) they just feel their character is getting shorted period.
- In closing, the best way to prevent these, is to keep in mind that, if you can, only use the material already provided by the source (anime, manga, whatever) to describe abilities; not your own fan opinions. Another is, if you get your edit reverted, and you feel its valid, then use the Talk Page, instead of reverting because you're getting pissy over your favorite character. That's what I say to everyone who gets mad at me about reverting. "If you think your edit is worth keeping, go to the talk page, because to me, it looks like hype." That's what talk pages are for. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 04:56, November 3, 2013 (UTC)