- Battlefield: Valley of the End
- Starting Distance: 30 meters
- Restrictions: Sage Mode for Hashirama
- Knowledge: Manga for both
Who wins? How does Itachi do against Base Hashirama?
Who wins? How does Itachi do against Base Hashirama?
They are powerful weapons nonetheless. Hashirama used 1 genjutsu and that was countered too. And you are again insinuating Hashirama has high genjutsu despite never showing much skill to make it seem so. Also Itachi wasn't trying to destroy Sasuke's mind or anything. And that's completely false of you to say "...all of Itachi's genjutsu have been easily broken, resisted or countered." You are making up stuff. I'm gonna say you're being bias. You have shown little to no proof, specifically for him beating Itachi in genjutsu. Hashirama has his wood release. Itachi has his fire and water jutsus. He can level the field with wood. Itachi can chop it easily. Even if Hashirama absorbed Hus Susanoo, Itachi has shown more speed, has other types of ninjutsu. And Hashirama will not break Tsukuyomi. Sasuke broke it as Itachi said because you'd a close blood relative and Sasuke being real good in genjutsu explains it. Although I believe Itachi broke it but made it seem like Sasuke did but that's speculation although more believable than Hashirama getting a 5 in genjutsu. I am not overestimating Itachi the slightest. He's not even a favs character of mines at all but he is a character you don't like so you may be underrating him and overrating Hashirama without his Sage Mode. He ain't dodging Amaterasu either. And with this, I take my leave, its clear here that this is going to be an run on thing. I gave reasons, good ones, with "facts" so good luck with your discussion Super.
Hashirama has only used genjutsu once and you label him an accomplished genjutsu user.
These are scenarios in how the fight COULD pan out
1. Hashirama has completely no idea of who Itachi Uchiha is (logical)
- Hashirama looks at Itachi's face in order to see who his enemy is and is caught in Tsukuyomi, Itachi then uses this opportunity to use his Totsuka blade in order to seal Hashirama.
2. Hashirama knows the name of his opponent is called Itachi Uchiha.
- Hashirama avoids looking at Itachi's eyes knowing that he is an Uchiha and decides to look at the lower half of his body. He sees Itachi's finger point at him. He strikes Itachi using his mokuton techniques and thinks the battle is over, but then realizes that it was an illusion. He goes to snap himself out of the genjutsu, but Itachi has already struck him with the Totsuka blade and Hashirama is sealed for eternity.
3. Hashirama knows name and that he is a genjutsu user.
- Hashirama retreats to a safe distance where he begins to use his mokuton techniques. Itachi applies offensive pressure against Hashirama by charging in his general direction and using his Ameterasu in order to burn the mokuton techniques before they can reach Itachi. Hashirama manages to slow down Itachi in order to give himself enough time to use Sage Art Wood Release: True Several Thousand Hands. Itachi tries to summon his Susanoo but the impact completely destroys the battlefield. Hashirama looks to see if Itachi had survived when he is pierced in the back by the totsuka blade. Itachi used a shadow clone in order to distract Hashirama and switched with the clone while he was maneuvering through the mokuton techniques. Hashirama was not able to sense Itachi at the time due to his focus on the shadow clone and not being able to concentrate (something that even the best sensors require during combat).
4. Hashirama is completely aware of Itachi Uchiha and all of his abilties.
- Hashirama instantly retreats and uses his mokuton techniques in order to give himself more time to create space between himself and Itachi. Hashirama uses his wood clones in order to mix himself between the clones (so Itachi must figure out which one is Hashirama). Itachi responds by using his Susanoo and Yata Mirror to counter the techniques. Hashirama knows that the Yara Mirror will protect Itachi from any technique but is also aware that Itachi has low chakra reserves, so he uses his pollen technique to bypass Susanoo and attacks from all angles in order to land a blow on Itachi. Itachi uses a mix of Ameterasu and Yasaka Magatama in order to fend off the mokuton. Hashirama spams Sage Art Wood Release: True Several Thousand Hands until Itachi runs out of chakra. Itachi then dies as he had no opportunity in order to counter the whole fight.
These are just some of many examples of how each fight could play out depending on the smallest details. These fights don't even include most of Itachi's genjutsu (crow clones, a lot of the genjutsu he uses even when people try and avoid genjutsu, etc).
Rachin123 wrote:
They are powerful weapons nonetheless.But they aren't invincible weapons. That's the point I'm making. They're role was so minor, its obvious Black Zetsu was just exaggerating to introduce more pathos to the series.
No, it wasn't countered. Hiruzen was completely powerless in it and he couldn't break it. This is from a man with a 5 in genjutsu just like Itachi. All he could do was attack blindly and hope he hit Hashirama and Tobirama or guard himself while getting his ass kicked.
He caught a Hokage in a genjutsu, said Hokage wasn't able to break it and could only stop it by yanking out Hashirama's soul. Seems to be pretty broken and high level to me, with Hashirama having high skill to use it.
...Tsukuyomi can't break or destroy someone's mind. It can just inflict enough mental trauma to make them pass out.
I'm not. A clone of Kakashi was able to break Itachi's genjutsu. Kurenai was able to break Itachi's genjutsu before he could even land a kick. Killer B was able to break Itachi's genjutsu before his shuriken could even hit! A greenhorn Naruto was able to resist it to the point where Itachi commended him!
Not once has Itachi's genjutsu been shown to be unbeatable. If a greenhorn Naruto can nearly break it, Hashirama should be able to break through any of Itachi's genjutsu considering he'd have faced a superior genjutsu user.
Don't toss stones if you live in a glass house, man.
Other than being a member of the Senju clan which trains their shinobi in all three disciplines, Hashirama having high chakra control and intelligence (two of Genjutsu's counters), and having fought superior genjutsu users.
...Hashirama knows all five elements, Yin Release, Yang Release, and Wood Release. Itachi's fire and water techniques are miniscule in comparison.
...Madara's battlefield-wide Katons were unable to turn one of Hashirama's normal Mokuton, which cover the entire Lightning Desert, in a sea of flames. Yet Itachi's tiny Katons and Suitons can do the same? Seriously?
Itachi's best Katon can't even burn down a normal forest, why should he be able to do so against a battlefield-sized Mokuton?
Itachi has shown inferior speed to Hashirama. And don't you remember the effects of Susanoo on Itachi? It hurts his entire body, zaps his strength and lessens his reactions. If Hashirama absorbs it, he's done.
He shoudl be able to resist it though.
No genjutsu is truly unbreakable, rachni. All can be broken. And that was a hyperbolic statement.
Manga and databook said Sasuke legitimately broke Tsukuyomi, so you're wrong here. And no its not, Hashirama was able to catch the strongest Kage of the time in a genjutsu that couldn't be broken despite Hiruzen's on 5 in genjutsu. You're underestimating him.
You claimed Itachi's small Katons can burn down Hashirama's entire forests. That's NOT overestimation of Itachi's abilities?
I dislike Itachi, but I'm not underestimating or underrating him. Hashirama without his Sage Mode was fighting Madara and Kurama at the same time and and even outran a fricking Bijudama. Yet I'm overrating his abilities, seriously, when he has feats like this?
Doesn't need to. Like Nagato he can sense the build up of chakra and block with a Mokuton which will absorb it.
You gave no facts dude. Your reasoning was shoddy, and your counters were lacking. You even forgot Hashirama mastered all five chakra natures and yin and yang, and acted even though he put a Kage in a genjutsu that couldn't be broken he's not a accomplish genjutsu user with high chakra control and intelligence.
I'll consider this a concession.
Trappedinmygenjutsu wrote:
Hashirama has only used genjutsu once and you label him an accomplished genjutsu user.All Senju are Genjutsu users. Its how they are trained and taught! And his genjutsu was so strong a genjutsu master like Hiruzen, who has a 5 in the stat, was unable to break it! Yet he's not a genjutsu user in your opinion despite these facts?
Lets see them.
...this doesnt' work since the scenario has him knowing who Itachi is.
At 30 meters distance that is unlikely, and are you forgetting the massive chakra drain Tsukuyomi puts on Itachi? He can't use two Mangekyo techniques in quick sucession, so immediately pulling Totsuka out is not in the cards. And even if he does get his Susanoo up by the time Hashirama recovers, there's no guarantee he can get Totsuka manifested in time before Hashirama recovers.
And he'd know a bit about Itachi's abilities.
....can you stop bringing up Ukataka? Its useless in this scenario! A greenhorn Post-Timeskip Naruto was able to resist it! its not an impressive technique! Its of no use in Kage level combat, otherwise Itachi would have used it on Kabuto after he blinded himself!
And no, that won't happen. This scenario severely underrates Hashirama to the point of absurdity.
I think anyone can infer Itachi would be a genjutsu user since he's a Uchiha.
Correction, this scenario is one of the worst. Shadow Clones, Amaterasu, are you deliberately ignoring Itachi's low chakra reserves?! He's not spamming anything! If Hashirama enters Sage Mode and uses Shinsusensju, its DONE. Nothing Itachi does will allow survival. He can't get out of range. His Susanoo can't tank it. He's DONE.
He doesn't need to know all of Itachi's abilities to win...
Yasaka Magatama being ANY use against a construct that big? Seriously? Yata Mirror isn't blocking ANY of Hashirama's techniques, it failed to block Kirin which is magnitudes weaker. NOW you take Itachi's stamina issues into account, your last didn't even bother to factor them in since you had him spamming Shadow Clones, Amaterasu, Susanoo, and Tsukuyomi with no consequence!
These scenarios you see even remotely happening?
Your scenarios are wildly inaccurate. In fact they're a disservice to both Itachi's and Hashirama's character. Your inflating Itachi's powers to absurd levels. You act like he can spam Mangekyo Sharingan techniques and shadow clones. You again insist Yata Mirror is unbeatable.
I don't even know what to say at this point...
In the last battle when he was: Blind and dying of terminal illness, Itachi was able to use all of his mangekyo Sharingan techniques. He used Tsukuyomi early on in the fight and it barely fazed him, he later proceeded to use ameterasu which ended up catching most of mountain area on fire. He later used Susanoo when Sasuke stated that Itachi was out of chakra. Itachi might not have chakra reserves to the scale of Hashirama but he definetely has enough chakra in order to complete the scenarios that I previously mentioned.
There is nothing that Hashirama can realistically do in scenario 1 except by being sealed. (You can't expect someone to go into a fight with out knowing their enemy and NOT look at their opponent's face). The 30M is not really relevant as most ninja would engage in Taijutsu at the start of a fight (especially from that range) which would bring Hashirama close enough to see Itachi's eyes.
During scenario 2, Utakata is a move in Itachi's arsenal that you are just trying to pretend that it doesn't exist. It does not need to completely stop Hashirama (I wouldn't expect it to do so) but it only needs to take a few seconds of Hashirama's time in order to give Itachi an opening to use his Totsuka blade.
Scenario 3 will leave Itachi tired, but he only used Ameterasu once in order to burn the mokuton jutsu and then his clone (only 1 clone, which could have also just been a crow clone) pretends to summon Susanoo for a second in order to con Hashirama into thinking he has landed a critical blow. Itachi can than use the Totsuka blade in order to finish the fight.
Scenario 4. Hashirama probably doesn't need to know everything about Itachi, but that example was used to demonstrate how knowledge about the opponent's techniques completely turns the tide of battle. In this battle a key factor is that Hashirama isn't like Itachi's other opponents who have a great understanding of Itachi's abilities which allows them to stay in the fight for a relatively long amount of time.
Itachi offsets his relatively low chakra reserves with his ridiculous chakra control. In my example he only used 1 shadow clone (where he has used a lot more than 1 at a time during the manga). During his final battle he has been shown to use a lot of chakra taxing moves in a short period of time and none of his abilities were exaggerated in the slightest. The examples with the Yata mirror don't require it to be invincible in order for Itachi to win, but I had it there just to display how Hashirama would try and counter the technique. Yasaka Matagama has been shown to do massive damage and I don't see the problem with it being used to try and hold back mokuton techniques.
Actually, Itachi did spam Mangekyo techniques. In the Sasuke fight he used Shadow Clones, Tsukuyomi, Fire Jutsus, Amaterasu (multiple times) and then used Susano'o to defeat Orochimaru and block Sasuke's Kirin. Sure, he died in the end, but in a full on fight, like one against Hashirama would be, he can spam Mangekyo techniques for one battle.
Also another point you bring up is that would Itachi have enough time to bring up Totsuka if he even did end up getting Hashi in genjutsu. You also implied that Sasuke's Kirin tanked Itachi's full Susano'o with Yata Mirror. In this situation, Itachi would have had to bring Susano'o up in 0.001 seconds. Do you think that it would take the Totsuka blade 3000 times longer to strike than it did to bring up the entire susano'o?
I do think Hashirama could win this fight, especially if he used that pollen jutsu, but once again, you seem to be adamant on ridiculing Itachi in all of your arguments.
Trappedinmygenjutsu wrote:
In the last battle when he was: Blind and dying of terminal illness, Itachi was able to use all of his mangekyo Sharingan techniques. He used Tsukuyomi early on in the fight and it barely fazed him, he later proceeded to use ameterasu which ended up catching most of mountain area on fire. He later used Susanoo when Sasuke stated that Itachi was out of chakra. Itachi might not have chakra reserves to the scale of Hashirama but he definetely has enough chakra in order to complete the scenarios that I previously mentioned.Even when he was healthy in Part I, Itachi couldn't spam his Mangekyo Sharingan. He has only one usage before he has to recover since it takes up 30% of his chakra to use.
Sasuke said he was nearly out of chakra, not fully depleted.
Oh and one more thing: instead of assuming Itachi gets so much stronger healthy, just use his performance and judge it next to Hashirama's. Does any of his feats in any of his fights even approach those of Hashirama's, yes or no? Cause otherwise you're practically using a fanon version of Itachi.
Tsunade, an inferior medical ninja to Hashirama by Madara's own statements, was able to heal the damage of Tsukuyuomi by waving her hand. Why wouldn't Hashirama be able to do the same thing to himself considering he's a superior medic?
And no, if Itachi is suffering a backlash from his Tsukuyomi, he's not going to automatically be able to manifest his Susanoo. And given his Susanoo levels up really slowly, he can't instantly form the stage where Totsuka Sword appears, leaving him vulnerable.
Your scenario is a disservice to both him and Hashirama.
It wouldn't even be a few seconds. Itachi's Susanoo would need a minute to form its Totsuka Blade, giving Hashirama enough time to break out of Ukataka. If Naruto could resist it, Hashirama can easily break it without missing a beat.
That one Amaterasu usage would leave Itachi open. Remember how he acts after Amaterasu is used? He's barely able to stand afterwards! And his Amaterasu is a far lower scale than Hashirama's Mokuton, so it wouldn't do much help at all. And you said he uses Kage Bushin no Jutsu, correct? Well good bye Susano'o, that's off Itachi's table since Kage Bushins take half the chakra of the user to create. Its why only one or two can be created by most ninja, remember?
Your scenario completely ignores that drain.
The second Shinsusenju comes out, its over. Itachi has no counter to it, none of his attacks can even scratch it, and Totsuka can't even reach into the clouds which is Shinsusenju's height (its taller than fricking mountains). And here's the thing, even Hashirama's Mokujin or Mokuton Ryu are too much for Itachi. Both dwarf his Susano'o, one can absorb it in a snap and since Mokujin's physical strength is equal to Complete Body - Susanoo, a single punch will wreck Itachi's Susanoo worse than Kirin did.
There's literally no way Itachi can win against Sage Mode Hashirama, much less Base Hashirama unless Hashirama is heavily restricted. You're inflating Itachi's abilities to the point where you might as well give him Complete Body - Susanoo, since after all, he died before his 'true' power was unleashed huh?
Shadowflame55555 wrote:
Actually, Itachi did spam Mangekyo techniques. In the Sasuke fight he used Shadow Clones, Tsukuyomi, Fire Jutsus, Amaterasu (multiple times) and then used Susano'o to defeat Orochimaru and block Sasuke's Kirin. Sure, he died in the end, but in a full on fight, like one against Hashirama would be, he can spam Mangekyo techniques for one battle.No, he didn't. He actually didn't use any Shadow Clones in the fight-that was within Itachi's Tsukuyomi. The backlash of Tsukuyomi made Itachi weaker. Itachi's Katons take a minimal amount of chakra. He used Amaterasu twice in quick succession, nearly draining him entirely. ANd his usage of Susanoo DID kill him. And no, Kirin wasn't blocked by Itachi's Susanoo, if it did, it'd still be standing and he'd have retained his Akatsuki cloak and his face wouldn't be burned.
Yata Mirror manifests at a lower stage of Susanooo (its skinned stag), while Totsuka manifests at the armored phase. We saw how slowly Itachi manifests his Susanoo even as an Edo Tensei when he has no stamina issues.
Hashirama is also able to break Itachi's genjutsu. He has the two defenses that Jiraiya talked about, and is an accomplished genjutsu user himself.
I'm not ridiculing Itachi. I'm putting him at the level that the manga and databooks had him. Itachi's abilities, as you, racni, and TrappedInMyGenjutsu keep putting are heavily inflated from his actual showing.
Edit: I'm done for the night. I have to clear my head.
I am not creating some magical Itachi here. Itachi before he died was able to use Ameterasu, Shadow clones, Tsukuyomi, Susanoo and other jutsu all in the same fight and he only died from illness at the end. People stating that Itachi had low stamina is hyperbole in itself, in the manga it is clear that Itachi has the chakra reserves to use several high level chakra taxing moves until he runs out. Did you see the scale of the ameterasu Itachi used (it covered the entire mountain area), and this would be able to counter most of Hashirama's mokuton techniques.
Itachi does not need to destroy, scracth or even climb Shinsusenju, he simply needs to do what Hashirama does (ride it as it is forming) and this would provide a pivotal chance for Itachi to strike, as Hashirama has no where to run and he has limited the angles that he can strike Itachi from. Madara used 5 clones to crate five Susanoos, so I don't see your notion where Itachi can't summon Susanoo for a few seconds using a Shadow clone.
How does Totsuka blade take a full minute to strike an opponent. Are you really saying that both Orochimaru and Nagato require a full minute in order to even react to Itachi using his Totsuka blade to strike them?
Tsunade did not heal herself from Tsukuyomi did she?
Trappedinmygenjutsu wrote:
I am not crating some magical Itachi here. Itachi before he died was able to use Ameterasu, Shadow clones, Tsukuyomi, Susanoo and other jutsu all in the same fight and he only died from illness at the end. People stating that Itachi had low stamina is hyperbole in itself, in the manga it is clear that Itachi has the chakra reserves to use several high level chakra taxing moves until he runs out. Did you see the scale of the ameterasu Itachi used (it covered the entire mountain area), and this would be able to counter most of Hashirama's mokuton techniques.Itachi's stamina is 2.5, its not a hyperbole. He's has low stamina. In his final battle, he used no shadow clones at all. Zetsu explicitly said the first part of their battle was ENTIRELY within genjutsu, so any 'shadow clones' created were within said genjutsu, thus illusions.
Three usages of his Mangekyo brought him to the red (one Tsukuyomi and two Amaterasu), and Susanoo pushed him over said edge. It wasn't just his disease that killed him, it was his stamina problems.
And finally, you are making a magical Itachi. You're inflating his abilities, ignoring how his body acts and reacts after each Mangekyo usage, and even ignore that even as an Edo Tensei, his Susanoo takes time to form his Totsuka Sword.
If he uses a Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu before hand, none of his cloens will able to use Susanoo. Madara has extremely high chakra reserves, hence why his clones are capable of using Susanoo, he can put enough chakra in them so they can manifest it. Itachi? He can barely maintain his OWN Susanoo, its realistic to think his clones can make them? Its not.
And unlike Orochimaru or Nagato, Hashirama isn't immobile on Mokujin or Shinsusenju. He'd catch Totsuka with the Hobi Technique or Mokujin's hands to stop Itachi's attempt to seal him. Especially since he'd be able to sense his chakra and react.
...Itachi's Susanoo was already entirely manifested by the time Orochimaru came out, remember? If he came out while it was forming, there'd be time for him to prepare. Not only that, Nagato, due to Kabuto's shoddy usage, was staring at the sky for a full minute after Chibaku Tensei was destroyed, giving Itachi enough time.
Doesn't matter, she's an inferior medic ninja to Hashirama. Hashirama can heal himself of the psychological damage. Wouldn't be surprising considering what his Healing Power is said to enable him to recover.
I'm done for the night, last post btw. Save any responses for tomorrow please?
Even if the data book states that Itachi's stamina is 2.5 at that time. he was shown to be able to use techniques much more frequently by the time he fought Sasuke at the Uchiha hideout. The genjutsu used in that fight could easily replace the shadow clones used in the scenarios stated previously if Itachi wanted to conserve his chakra.
Even in the Sasuke fight before he 'went over the edge' Itachi was able to kill Orochimaru and the giant snake he was connected to. Both Nagato and Orochimaru have been shown to dodge other techniques at fast pace yet both of them were sealed with relative ease by Itachi.
Hashirama wouldn't be able to heal himself from the traumatic damage so quickly after being directly hit by the Tsukuyomi. As I have stated previously, the Totsuka blade does not need to counter the Shinsusenju (as it does not cover Hashirama's body) and Itachi can just strike Hashirama which would end the fight. It is also unknown if Shinsusenju and other mokuton techniques could be absorbed by the Totsuka blade since they are technically living beings as well (similiar to Orochiamaru's eight headed snake) which would be a major advantage for Itachi, if this theory works (but is not necessary for the fight).
The Itachi used in this fight is not some magical version of Itachi. It is Itachi using strategies that Itachi would come up with and using the abilities that Itachi displayed throughout the series. I have not given any ridiculous attributes as: I haven't made any of Itachi's justu some continental busting moves and I haven't made Itachi's natural physical strength or durability even relevant in the fight. Itachi has been proven to have incredible speed and reflexes and I have even tried to limit how much these aspects of his fighting style are influenced in the battle in order to give HASHIRAMA an advantage.
You are the one creating a magical Hashirama who somehow knows the ability of someone who was born decades after Hashirama had already died. Hashirama has never countered a genjutsu in the manga, never seen Totsuka blade or Yata Mirror and you assume that he can magically counter every single move Itachi has instantly and easily like Itachi is a genin.
The more that we "discuss" about who would win, it is becoming clearer and clearer that Itachi would have a greater chance of winning (Hashirama still could win), and it is now becoming more about how blind and terminally ill Itachi has to be, to fight Hashirama in his prime (with prior knowledge on Itachi).
Edit: @SuperSaiyaMan you don't need to respond to this today, I just wanted to write what was on my mind so I don't forget it by tomorrow.